Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls,Spins
The thing that causes a wing to stall (and subsequently perhaps to spin) is that it meets the air at greater than the stalling angle. All subsonic thin wings, flown at speeds where compressibility is not an issue(below about 200 knots) stall at around 15 degrees angle of attack (the angle at which the wing meets the air) for large aspect ratios (glider wings). The pilot controls this angle with the position of the elevator. The elevator is pretty rigidly connected to the control column so what you do with that controls whether the wing is stalled or not. Nothing to do with speed or attitude at all. However if you fly below a certain speed the maximum lift force generated by the wing is less than the force on the glider due to gravity and you cannot sustain level flight. This speed is the level flight 1 g stall speed. At angles of attack close to the stalling angle, coarse use of the ailerons and/or rudder can cause one wing to exceed its stalling angle and it only takes one wing to stall to initiate an incipient spin. So the lesson really is quite simple: If the glider stalls (usually recognisable by the pitch down or the nose slowing its progress around the horizon in a thermal) just STOP PULLING THE STICK BACK. Most gliders have heavy wings and won't actually snap roll as the wing has a high moment of inertia in roll. As Gel Cuming (long time RAAF chief test pilot) told me once about stalls and departures from controlled flight (a better term possibly): if the aircraft wants to go in the opposite direction to your control inputs, move the stick in the direction the aircraft wants to go. By the time you get to the middle things will usually be under control. Rules of thumb about speeds are no substitute for proper understanding. There's really no need to ever enter a full spin accidently. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 01:01 PM 3/06/2011, you wrote: Hi; Another article which expands upon the subject: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/06/352727/industry-sounds-warnings-on-airline-pilot-skills.html Interesting that a meeting was held and nobody could remember where the new stall recovery technique came from. It isn't used by FAA certification test pilots. Goes to show that every now and again it may pay to check your assumptions or operational doctrine and ask why are we doing this, this way?. Maybe the Euros should ask EASA why they are messing with gliders when they can't stop innocent people being killed in airliners with known faulty pitot tubes that made it all the way through certification and then numerous operational incidents without an emergency AD for replacement. That's before anyone questions Airbus cockpit design and operation and airline pilot training, all of which appear to need attention. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Hi; Another article which expands upon the subject: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/06/352727/industry-sounds-warnings-on-airline-pilot-skills.html On Mon, 30 May 2011, Mike Borgelt wrote: WTF http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/28/357321/revised-stall-procedures-centre-on-angle-of-attack-not.html Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com Cheers -- Peter F Bradshaw: http://www.exadios.com (public keys avaliable there). Personal site: http://personal.exadios.com I love truth, and the way the government still uses it occasionally to keep us guessing. - Sam Kekovich. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Backup is ISIS as D Conway says. It is solid state for attitude and should last for 5 hours on battery power. Airbus and Boeing have recently changed stall procedure to include REDUCING power due to possibility of pitch up from underslung engines overpowering full forward elevator at low speed. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Cc: Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls At 07:37 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline -- which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. Any Airbus drivers care to tell us if this is correct? No backup attitude indication at all? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
The artificial horizon (AH) will only tell you if you are climbing or descending. It works on the direction you are travelling in. Most larger aircraft will have an angle of attack device, either a vane or probe, mounted on either side of the nose. This can be used in a stall warning system. Stall angle is not as simple on high speed / high altitude aircraft as it is to low speed / low altitude aircraft like gliders. Unlike gliders where the stall angle is a constant, an airliner cruising at ~Mach 0.8 (give or take a bit) stall angle is a complex variable. At those mach numbers it doesn't take too much accelleration of the air flow over (and under) the wing to exceed Mach 1. The presence of strong shock waves on the surface of the wing can greatly alter the lift. The typical affect is that the stall angle is greatly reduced. (Note that the lift that the wing produces per degree of angle of attack increases with Mach number up to a certain point which can compensate a bit.) Note also that when the airliner is low and slow, the stall angle returns to a relative constant as per what we are used to as glider pilots. Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew. it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. The first time he tried to power out of it as allegded with the Air France crew. the second time he remembered to lower the nose as well. On Mon 30/05/11 12:26 PM , DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com sent: I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring [1] Links: -- [1] http://webmail-old.internode.on.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Flists.internode.on.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 12:26 PM, DMcD wrote: I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. They were at high altitude and flying heavy. Thus Vs and Vmo would have been rather close together. It isn't entirely unusual for an airliner at altitude to only have a 10 - 15 KIAS range between maximum speed and stall speed. Indications from the flight data recorder released so far are that something happened which made all of the flight computers trip offline at the same time (possibly all three pitot/static probes icing over at the same time - speculation) In very short order, that'd have disengaged the autopilot, placed the aircraft into alternate law (where overspeed and stalling protections are disabled), and killed almost all of the instruments. The screens would have been full of cautions and warnings from the tripped systems, and audible alarms would have been blaring through the cockpit. At high altitude, when Vs and Vmo are close together, and the autopilot/autothrottles are offline, virtually any disturbance in the outside air or applied to the sidestick would have either made the aircraft stall or overspeed. The aircraft was in a thunderstorm, so there's your disturbance in the outside air. No vertical speed indication, no altimeter, no horizon reference at night in a thunderstorm, no ASI. So probably no way of recovering from the stall. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 5:07 PM, anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote: Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew. Airbus aircraft don't have stickshakers, because Normal Law is supposed to make stalls impossible (the aircraft will override the pilot by adjusting power, pitch and height as the stall approaches) There's an audible alarm instead (sounds like a chirping of crickets). it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. That's one of the catalysts for Sen. Xenophon's current Senate inquiry into air safety. Another was sparked by a different crew in a Q400 approaching Mascot last year, which experienced a stick shaker warning and initiated a go-around, then had another stick-shaker warning on the second landing attempt and continued the approach regardless. (and the bodgied-up go-around procedures. and the microburst takeoff. and the near-miss north of Tullamarine... :) - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
As Mark says stall angle is complicated but they manage to present a lot of it on the primary flight display alongside the airspeed strip: cid:image001.gif@01CC1EFA.198ADD10 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 6:32 PM To: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: DMcD Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls On 30/05/2011, at 5:07 PM, anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote: Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew. Airbus aircraft don't have stickshakers, because Normal Law is supposed to make stalls impossible (the aircraft will override the pilot by adjusting power, pitch and height as the stall approaches) There's an audible alarm instead (sounds like a chirping of crickets). it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. That's one of the catalysts for Sen. Xenophon's current Senate inquiry into air safety. Another was sparked by a different crew in a Q400 approaching Mascot last year, which experienced a stick shaker warning and initiated a go-around, then had another stick-shaker warning on the second landing attempt and continued the approach regardless. (and the bodgied-up go-around procedures. and the microburst takeoff. and the near-miss north of Tullamarine... :) - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - image001.gif___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 12:56 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Angle of incidence is an engineering term to denote the angle which the wing chord line (or tailplane chord line) meets the fuselage datum. The attitude indicator shows where the nose is pointed. In Head Up Displays this known as the waterline. It can be a W shape with wings each side. The velocity vector is the direction in which the aircraft is moving. On a HUD this is usually a little diamond shape. The velocity vector can also show sideslip. The angle of attack is the angle of the wing chord line to the relative wind. I don't know what the Airbus philosophy on the main attitude display is. Maybe Adam can enlighten us. I suspect AoA may be a number somewhere on the display. I hope at least that. I think I can see one scenario for the AF447 case. At 35degrees AoA the descent angle would be very steep and the attitude may even have been shown to be slightly nose down relative to the horizon. The crew may have been trying to pull the nose up but to no avail. Mike . Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 6:51 PM, David Conway wrote: As Mark says stall angle is complicated but they manage to present a lot of it on the primary flight display alongside the airspeed strip: Yep, although on AF-744 the PFD would have been inoperative. (one of the alerts very early in the piece was an underspeed warning showing 65 kts) Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline -- which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. They were flying blind, at Mach 0.8 at night in a thunderstorm with no instruments. The only real mystery is why it took five entire minutes for them to hit the water. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 07:37 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline -- which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. Any Airbus drivers care to tell us if this is correct? No backup attitude indication at all? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
There is a backup system and separate display to the PFD's (ISIS) cid:image001.gif@01CC1EF9.2FFEA7D0 -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring- boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 7:13 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls At 07:37 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline - - which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. Any Airbus drivers care to tell us if this is correct? No backup attitude indication at all? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring image001.gif___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
So when they are talking about recovering from stalls, they dont mean the cheap seats, its something those big things with the whatcha callits out the sides do. JR ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Hi; Here is the release from BEA which may answer some questions (and raise others): http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/point.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf On Mon, 30 May 2011, Mike Borgelt wrote: At 12:56 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Angle of incidence is an engineering term to denote the angle which the wing chord line (or tailplane chord line) meets the fuselage datum. The attitude indicator shows where the nose is pointed. In Head Up Displays this known as the waterline. It can be a W shape with wings each side. The velocity vector is the direction in which the aircraft is moving. On a HUD this is usually a little diamond shape. The velocity vector can also show sideslip. The angle of attack is the angle of the wing chord line to the relative wind. I don't know what the Airbus philosophy on the main attitude display is. Maybe Adam can enlighten us. I suspect AoA may be a number somewhere on the display. I hope at least that. I think I can see one scenario for the AF447 case. At 35degrees AoA the descent angle would be very steep and the attitude may even have been shown to be slightly nose down relative to the horizon. The crew may have been trying to pull the nose up but to no avail. Mike Cheers -- Peter F Bradshaw: http://www.exadios.com (public keys avaliable there). Personal site: http://personal.exadios.com I love truth, and the way the government still uses it occasionally to keep us guessing. - Sam Kekovich. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Hi; On Mon, 30 May 2011, Mark Newton wrote: On 30/05/2011, at 12:26 PM, DMcD wrote: I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. They were at high altitude and flying heavy. Thus Vs and Vmo would have been rather close together. It isn't entirely unusual for an airliner at altitude to only have a 10 - 15 KIAS range between maximum speed and stall speed. Indications from the flight data recorder released so far are that something happened which made all of the flight computers trip offline at the same time (possibly all three pitot/static probes icing over at the same time - speculation) In very short order, that'd have disengaged the autopilot, placed the aircraft into alternate law (where overspeed and stalling protections are disabled), and killed almost all of the instruments. The screens would have been full of cautions and warnings from the tripped systems, and audible alarms would have been blaring through the cockpit. At high altitude, when Vs and Vmo are close together, and the autopilot/autothrottles are offline, virtually any disturbance in the outside air or applied to the sidestick would have either made the aircraft stall or overspeed. The aircraft was in a thunderstorm, so there's your disturbance in the outside air. No vertical speed indication, no altimeter, no horizon reference at night in a thunderstorm, no ASI. So probably no way of recovering from the stall. - mark I don't understand why they would not have had artificial horizon or vertical speed indicator. They certainly had an altimeter becase they called 10,000' as it went by. Cheers -- Peter F Bradshaw: http://www.exadios.com (public keys avaliable there). Personal site: http://personal.exadios.com I love truth, and the way the government still uses it occasionally to keep us guessing. - Sam Kekovich. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls - specifically AF 447
Quite a lot of further information (mixed in with varying amounts of falsehood) on this specific accident can be found here: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/452836-af447-thread-no-3-a.html Filter as required - after a while you will work out which contributors know what they are talking about. CAUTION: You can while away quite a bit if time on this one, and your confidence in some aspects of some airline operations may suffer. Terry ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 07:55 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary==_NextPart_000_0096_01CC1EFF.5B554370 Content-Language: en-au There is a backup system and separate display to the PFD's (ISIS) So hopefully when the computers went off line the back up display worked from the gyros and accelerometers? With the quality of the gyros and accelerometers they would be using the attitude display at least ought to work usefully for some minutes at least, without air data inputs. Mike cid:image001.gif@01CC1EF9.2FFEA7D0 inline: 2d1dba7.gif Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 8:18 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: So hopefully when the computers went off line the back up display worked from the gyros and accelerometers? With the quality of the gyros and accelerometers they would be using the attitude display at least ought to work usefully for some minutes at least, without air data inputs. The ISIS is another electronic system, not a gyro-based steam-gauge system. It takes data from the third set of pitot/static probes. If they're iced over, then the ISIS doesn't work. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 08:58 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: On 30/05/2011, at 8:18 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: So hopefully when the computers went off line the back up display worked from the gyros and accelerometers? With the quality of the gyros and accelerometers they would be using the attitude display at least ought to work usefully for some minutes at least, without air data inputs. The ISIS is another electronic system, not a gyro-based steam-gauge system. It takes data from the third set of pitot/static probes. If they're iced over, then the ISIS doesn't work. Go back and look at David's diagram. See the box marked ISIS? See the little legends in it that say accelerometers, gyrometers? The gyros are probably solid state laser ring or fiber optic rate gyros, not mechanical ones. They may even be MEMS gyros but given the age of the design I doubt it. MEMS gyros are in things like the Dynon instruments etc found in Experimental homebuilts. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
WTF http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/28/357321/revised-stall-procedures-centre-on-angle-of-attack-not.html Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Scary, isn't it? -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 11:27 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls WTF http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/28/357321/revised-stall-procedu res-centre-on-angle-of-attack-not.html Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011 10:57 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: WTF http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/28/357321/revised-stall-procedures-centre-on-angle-of-attack-not.html Exactly. I've been reading the PPRuNe threads on this sad business since day one. (OK I know some people will claim that PPRuNe is full of BS etc, but I see it as any other group of pages on the internet - of which much the same can and must be said - this group excepted of course). Only in the last few days has this astonishing SOP been revealed. There are reasons behind it of course, and they are interesting and partly logical, but the basic concept remains completely foreign to what most of us would expect, and on this occasion it failed everyone on board with tragic results. This policy and others will be dissected extensively in extensive meeting rooms and courts of law over the next few years. It's not over yet. Terry ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Oh god ! one of those is enough. those who go back for more need a jolly good talking to. Patch - Original Message - From: Christopher Mc Donnell wommamuku...@bigpond.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, 30 May, 2011 1:54:59 PM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls I was attempting to explain ... this to #2 wife. No! no! D bin D. You get the senior #1 wife to explain things to the junior wives. :-) C bin D - Original Message - From: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
