Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
The vent hole on the shroud is an excellent idea, McPhee alerted me to that you came up with that idea - it's on my list to do this form2. I can only imagine the life span it'd take away from my instruments. I'd like to change my shroud color too, the color wasn't chosen by me. Another one of those jobs to get around too.. Re: fuses, there's an extra one on my panel for the electric bug wipers that'll one day find themselves installed. On a side note, I'm with James Dutschke - the B700 is amazing as a vario. It'd be also great as a sole vario in your glider. I've in fact have owned two, reason: to long to describe, rest assured it was for good reasons! Safe Circles, WPP On 28 Apr 2015, at 19:26, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: I don't see a magnetic compass. Isn't compliant with airworthiness requirements. Also nasty shine on the black instrument panel cover. Humbrol Matt Black 33 from your local Toyworld or hobby shop fixes that. 2 coats out of two small cans. Brushes nicely with 1/2 soft brush. Also no vent hole in the cover to let out hot air. Bad pup, no biscuit. Mike At 06:32 PM 28/04/2015, you wrote: You have a whole lot of fuses and switches there. More fuses than instruments. Why so many? On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 6:57 AM, go_soaring go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: G'day all, My apologies, forgot to mention that I run an LX Colibri II as my independent backup vario nav source. I've flown a practice 400km flight with it prior to the Nationals this year, surprisingly worked really well as a vario. After all, Tobias Geiger almost won a world championships by flying with a Colibri II alone!! The only thing that would make me feel even better about my CNv, is to have Borgelts brilliant backup battery supply to his B instruments added to the CNv - I'm sure it's saved many Mike! Cheers, WPP P.s. My panel as it is now 2a115de.JPG On 27 Apr 2015, at 18:11, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 08:38 PM 27/04/2015, you wrote: So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario. Anyone who doesn't think an outlanding in a glider is a greater risk than landing back at the known aerodrome they took off from should get some re-training. Or start thinking. After all what could possibly go wrong? You couldn't possibly get a loss of control while manoeuvering for the landing on an unfamiliar paddock could you? Or while trying to catch a thermal to get away from low altitude? Made more difficult in the case under discussion by not having a vario. Or hit an impossible to see power line? Or a tree? Or a line of trees cause unexpected wind shear? Or ground loop and break the tailboom because the wingtip caught in the grass which was longer than you thought? Or hit the hidden fence in the long grass? (two very experienced contest pilots took a dual high tow one day to do some performance comparisons. They had a fine old time until one said to the other we're at 2500 feet. Where is the aerodrome? Yes, two outlandings in the same paddock. Fairly rough, long grass, the second guy to land landed to one side of the other. When they got out and met they found they were different sides of a fence. Yes, failure to adequately brief and decide who was formation lead at what time, amongst others.) Or damage the landing gear by dropping into a rabbit hole? Or cattle were in the paddock when the ground was wet leaving deep hoofprints now that the ground is rock hard? Or there are hidden largish rocks in the grass? Or the tailskid causes a fire (it has happened)? Or the hidden ditch? Or the river bed that looked like a last ditch way to avoid a bad accident in a contest flown over unlandable terrain with only the occasional ranch airstrip turned out to be full of human head sized boulders? I'm sure there have been other creative ways to break people and gliders in outlandings. I've done 62 in real paddocks not counting aerodromes I didn't originally intend to land on. Only damage was a flat tyre when a lump of Mallee root hit the wheel rim, removing a segment which slashed the tube but not the tyre on the way out. Last day of a contest fortunately. Luck. Yes, there are procedures. They are designed to minimise risk but they won't eliminate it in this case as there are things simply beyond your ability to sense. There is always an element of luck. Mindlessly following these procedures and expecting everything will be OK is hopelessly naive. And no, gliding doesn't need more stupid rules. There are far too many already. Application of knowledge and commonsense would be good though. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 05:32 PM 27/04/2015, I wrote: If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. We sold 1000+ B40's from 1995 to 2005. My US outlet told me many many US pilots were installing them and turning off the audio on their LNAVs. You may find that the backup is the vario you like better. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Which turns out to be remarkably self enforcing, because for someone who's only ever flown with a vario it's extraordinarily hard to get out of gliding distance without one. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 8:38 PM, Sean Jorgensen-Day sean.jorgensen...@bigpond.com wrote: *“*For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup.” So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: “You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario.” ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
YES in the Nationals. It felt like the wings had fallen off. I had no backup….. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com mailto:cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com mailto:plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Twice. Both in state comps. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: Thereâs no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Hi All, Don’t usually give free plugs but Mike’s B700 is about as good a backup or main vario as it is possible to obtain. It has the works. A back up battery and a good audio, averager and vario. About the same cost as a manual vario but many times better. I have an expensive bells and whistles vario but the needles move in unison with Mike’s modestly priced B700, Harry Medlicott From: Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 5:32 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: Thereâs no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: *There’s no need for a winter backup now *Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments* - *design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Not a failure as such. But I did do a flight in a club aircraft with only an airspeed indicator, altimeter and a radio functional. I knew that was all that was working at take-off though. I flew in thermals for over an hour. Fortunately the launch before mine marked a thermal for me. But I managed to feel my way around the sky from there. Did wonders for my early thermalling skills. Anthony From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:25 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com mailto:cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com mailto:plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
It's easy: point the nose away from the field and wait. You'll be out of gliding distance in no time. - mark On 27 Apr 2015, at 8:55 pm, Matthew Scutter yellowplant...@gmail.com wrote: Which turns out to be remarkably self enforcing, because for someone who's only ever flown with a vario it's extraordinarily hard to get out of gliding distance without one. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 8:38 PM, Sean Jorgensen-Day sean.jorgensen...@bigpond.com wrote: “For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup.” So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: “You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario.” ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Yes, Catherine lent me her son and newly arrived 2 seater with its single vario which chose to rest the needle in the top right corner, so we had to use the back up on the bottom of the back seat. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Yes, on several occasions. First time was halfway around the task in the Nationals. Always due to main battery failure so I lost the main flight computer and audio as well. The Winter got me home every time. I learned to soar on manual varios with no audio so it was just back to basics. On two occasions I used WinPilot running on its own battery for my averager but it was a pain. I now have triple battery systems, dual loggers (LX9000 plus Colibri II), dual GPS and electric + mechanical vario's. ROSS From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Nick, I used the faster time constant Winter mechanical on every single flight (the standard Winter is a nice instrument, but the faster version is magnificent). It wasn't there as a backup (although it obviously could have served that purpose). It was there as the primary. It was better than any electric I flew with, and came with a guarantee that no computer algorithm was between the reading and what I could feel. I often flew with the audio volume low - so that I could hear the air. This was particularly important in the Discus at high wing loadings, as the feel was damped. I heard Ingo on this subject (turn down the audio volume) in casual conversation. If it was good for Ingo then I figured it was worth doing too. My view is that any volume dial has turn up for SLOW as a consequence not just the radio. That's not an argument against audio vario - it's an argument to use it judiciously and not drown out the sound of the air. The Winter got me home on the last weak thermal of the day a couple of times. The electrics were still working fine, but the Winter had greater sensitivity. By the way, I also tried a Sage mechanical for a couple of seasons, and went back to the Winter. Get your wiring right. Don't save cents on low grade wire. Replace batteries regularly, and install a backup. Use a good charger. Probability of failure reduces from low to very unlikely. But still have a mechanical because it helps centering, and in weak lift, and helps you to figure out the language of the air moving past the cockpit. Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad from a comfortable couch seat in temporary retirement (from gliding) On 27 Apr 2015, at 7:14 pm, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Hi James, Good question, deserving an answer. In a lifetime of flying, here is my experience with instrument failure: Direct failure of the vario – once only. Ironically it was the mechanical vario that failed, but I had an electronic “ back up” – not a big deal. Experienced a plugged TE probe once – proved to be a VERY small spider (alive at the time, so it moved about in the line, thus rendering the DI check useless). I could fly by the “seat of my pants” OK, but not effectively compete. Task was eventually abandoned, and I returned to base, and blew out the line. Also (in a comp) – and once only thank God – total power failure INCLUDING failure of the back- up battery – unbelievable! I was very happy to have a mechanical Sage I can tell you, and hardly missed a beat, soaring wise, despite the elevated level of stress, and having to mentally do the final glide calculations. However the lesson I learnt here had nothing to do with any of this. Not having a radio at the finish proved, in the event, to be quite dangerous. So, if you ever find yourself in this situation, allow yourself a bit of extra height, to visually work out what is going on at the finish aerodrome, when you arrive, and if the wind is reasonably light, it is probably a good idea not to land on the active strip. Also had one altimeter failure in flight. Again not a big deal. Never had an in flight radio failure. That’s it! Regarding Mike B’s original comment on this topic, I think he has more or less totally covered it. However I will make one comment on his post. I think he makes a little too much of the dangers associated with outlanding: Make no mistake – there ARE very real dangers. However each and every one of us has been taught the proper procedures on how to deal with an outlanding. If you follow the procedures, you will be generally OK, with NO damage to glider or self, in almost 100% of cases. If you choose to ignore the procedures, well all I can say is “good luck”, because you will need it! Gary From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
The Winter got me home on the last weak thermal of the day a couple of times. The electrics were still working fine, but the Winter had greater sensitivity. Agreed. Although I use the audio from an electrovario, there's something about the way the Winter needle moves which tells you far more about the air in the immediate vicinity of a thermal. That and your arse. You hear the noise from the noisy vario, glance down at the vibrating needle of the Winter and then wait to turn or pass it up. I rarely look at the electric thing other than to see what the average is after a few turns. My opinion is that the undamped mechanical varios are very useful indeed. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Mike was the first to include this feature, but... Every electric vario can have a backup battery. Pardon the Text-O-CAD. Jim SPDT ON/ON Switch | Main Supply + _ \__ Instrument + Backup Supply + ___ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
