Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
We have a rather good work environment. But trying to convince freshers of this is close to impossible, as they have inflated ideas about what the IT industry is really like. This is one of the reasons we only hire proven hackers from among freshers - they already value things we do to. Otherwise, we prefer folks that have spent a year or two in Big IT and are tired of the politics, back biting and overhead associated with it. As importantly, they no longer find a big campus with 10k people on it such a cool idea after having been stuck in one (and having spent a couple of hours a day travelling to get there). TL;DR - you may actually want to target folks around you at the IT park rather than freshers. They'll be more amenable to what you're pitching to them. On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 2:31 AM, Rajeev J Sebastian rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Sidu Ponnappa lorddae...@gmail.com wrote: Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. Any object oriented language the candidate is comfortable with is fine by us. Unit tests are, however, mandatory. TDD is a huge plus. Question is, how much to pay? Figure out who your competition in the hiring space is (this could be very very different from your business competitors). Find out how much they pay. Then do your best to pay more. For us, this means companies like ThoughtWorks, Amazon and co. We try to pay salaries that are close to these firms (though matching Amazon is still slightly beyond us for now). From the freshers point of view though, their friends making insane salaries at MNCs always make them dissatisfied. Any recommendations? Yes - pay more than the MNCs or at least get close and compensate for the delta with a brilliant work environment. Unfortunately, I have no better answer than this. Folks typically evaluate a prospective employer on salary, work environment (including how awesome prospective colleagues are, how much they can learn, and how transparent and honest the organisations is) and the work itself. There is no magic formula that allows you to hire better people while paying significantly less than your competitors, but you can usually swing it by being somewhere close on salary and doing better than them on the last two parameters. Honestly, a small company that can't trounce an MNC on work environment is doing something seriously wrong. We have a rather good work environment. But trying to convince freshers of this is close to impossible, as they have inflated ideas about what the IT industry is really like. There is also the tug of Bangalore. Identify why this is the case and look to plug the gaps. If the attractiveness lies in the lifestyle, then you may wish to open up a branch in Bangalore. I should warn you though that on the hiring front, things are no better here :) Thanks Sidu. All of this is really good advice. Regards Rajeev J Sebastian ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
Senthil Kumaran sent...@uthcode.com writes: [...] I can understand your situation. One possible suggestion is to pay well and hire smart students based upon their academic and project strengths and let them start new on whichever technologies you are using. The problem is that most academic and offical projects are easy to manipulate. I've met a large number of freshers with outstanding academic credentials (IIT etc.) who couldn't code themselves out of a paper bag. I've also met a lot of people from 3rd rate colleges with mediocre credentials who were unbelievably awesome. YMMV but I don't consider them reliable. My favourite metrics to judge real ability are (in decreasing order of usefulness). 1. Open source work. It's a good metric of what they've been doing and how long they've been doing it. It's also a good metric of team work and other such non technical things. It's also something with history which they can't create in a week just to impress you. 2. Personal knowledge. If you've met the prospective employee at an event which attracts good programmers, chances that they are one are higher. Word of mouth or recommendations from someone you trust work well too. 3. Programming problem. Give them a *hard* programming problem to crack on their own time. Give them a week or so and ask them to send you their solution. This should weed some people out. 4. General interests. This is not necessarily accurate but I've generally found a good correlation. If the prospective candidate has a wider range of interests, is well read and not just someone who can write some programs, I've generally found that they're better to work with. -- ~noufal http://nibrahim.net.in This report is filled with omissions. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Monday, October 31, 2011 8:08:05 PM UTC+5:30, Noufal Ibrahim wrote: I would recommend that she join a startup or a small company and get some real work experience before jumping into this. I'd go so far as to suggest that they join a mid-to-large sized company and spend the first couple of years maintaining somebody else's crap code. It's one hell of a learning experience. - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
I'd go so far as to suggest that they join a mid-to-large sized company and spend the first couple of years maintaining somebody else's crap code. It's one hell of a learning experience. Don't join Big companies, you're learning is not in your hand, large companies work on diverse areas, so chance of getting into the area which interests you is less. I personally feel joining small or little mid size companies can help you learn much better. In larger size companies it is process oriented and easy to pass the buck. -- * Talk is cheap, show me the code - Linus Torvalds Winning Regards KraceKumar.R http://kracekumar.wordpress.com +91-97906-58304 * *+91-85530-29521* * * ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 09:37:32PM +0530, Rajeev J Sebastian wrote: Given that the fresher lacks knowledge in any given area, what kind of testing should we use? Since we do development in Python and Django, and so far no candidate has come to us with Python on their resume, what do you suggest we do? I can understand your situation. One possible suggestion is to pay well and hire smart students based upon their academic and project strengths and let them start new on whichever technologies you are using. -- Senthil ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
So my question: how does one gauge aptitude in programming? Get them to write code. One common thread for us is that we have everybody write code irrespective of experience. Half the code at home, and if that passes muster, we have them come into the office and pair with us on expanding their solution to complete the other half. We don't care about degrees, academic scores or designations - if they can't produce test driven, quality code, we don't pursue that candidate beyond that point. The other indicator we look for (especially when dealing with freshers) is open source contributions - a github or bitbucket account with actual code and actual contributions to open source is pretty much mandatory. We're a small, highly profitable company with no intentions of growing to 50 or 100 people, so being this selective works well for us. Finally - be the best paymaster, or at least try to get close. If you pay crap salaries, you will attract crap people. If you pay well, word gets around and the right kind of people will start talking to you. Best, Sidu. http://c42.in http://rubymonk.com On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Rajeev J Sebastian rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com wrote: I'm running a small company out of Technopark Trivandrum. We're always on the lookout for good people (as is everyone else). I myself have a history in development, and none in management. Never worked at a company in my career. So my question: how does one gauge aptitude in programming? In particular, when we put out a job advertisement, we get a ton of resumes from freshers. Most (if not all) do not have any significant experience, knowledge or demonstrable skills. Most fail our written test, which tests basic knowledge in programming, algorithms, etc. Their resumes are full of bullshit, and in many cases, fraudulent. Given that the fresher lacks knowledge in any given area, what kind of testing should we use? Since we do development in Python and Django, and so far no candidate has come to us with Python on their resume, what do you suggest we do? Regards Rajeev J Sebastian ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:26 PM, kracekumar ramaraju kracethekingma...@gmail.com wrote: I'd go so far as to suggest that they join a mid-to-large sized company and spend the first couple of years maintaining somebody else's crap code. It's one hell of a learning experience. Don't join Big companies, you're learning is not in your hand, large companies work on diverse areas, so chance of getting into the area which interests you is less. I personally feel joining small or little mid size companies can help you learn much better. In larger size companies it is process oriented and easy to pass the buck. True... to some extent. Like just about anything else, you have to choose wisely. My four years at Kanbay (now CapGemini) taught me a lot of lessons in organization, management as well as presentation. Of course, like Sidu said earlier, none of these skills can substitute good engineering chops. And that, IMHO, is a decision that must come from within. - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Saager Mhatre saager.mha...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:26 PM, kracekumar ramaraju kracethekingma...@gmail.com wrote: I'd go so far as to suggest that they join a mid-to-large sized company and spend the first couple of years maintaining somebody else's crap code. It's one hell of a learning experience. Don't join Big companies, you're learning is not in your hand, large companies work on diverse areas, so chance of getting into the area which interests you is less. I personally feel joining small or little mid size companies can help you learn much better. In larger size companies it is process oriented and easy to pass the buck. True... to some extent. Like just about anything else, you have to choose wisely. My four years at Kanbay (now CapGemini) taught me a lot of lessons in organization, management as well as presentation. Well my question is how much did you learn about programming, api design, Unit testing, algo design, agility, how to distinguish good programmer from bad programmer. Sorry If i am rude :) Of course, like Sidu said earlier, none of these skills can substitute good engineering chops. And that, IMHO, is a decision that must come from within. -- * Talk is cheap, show me the code - Linus Torvalds Winning Regards KraceKumar.R http://kracekumar.wordpress.com +91-97906-58304 * *+91-85530-29521* * * ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
Thanks Sidu and Senthil for your recommendations, which were very helpful. As you suggested, the most important change we can make is to test directly with code. Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. As for pay, we are willing to pay in return for exceptional work. We outsource a LOT and pay well for absorbing the responsibility and risk. But we have so far been unsuccessful in finding talented people, to whom we could pay equivalent to what we outsource. Question is, how much to pay? I guess this is not really an answerable question. Looking around at the sweat factories that surround us, we pay very well. There is also the tug of Bangalore. From the freshers point of view though, their friends making insane salaries at MNCs always make them dissatisfied. Any recommendations? Regards Rajeev J Sebastian ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Rajeev J Sebastian rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com wrote: Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. I am a fresher, you won't believe I mention and promote python, though I am advanced python novice. http://github.com/kracekumar As for pay, we are willing to pay in return for exceptional work. We outsource a LOT and pay well for absorbing the responsibility and risk. But we have so far been unsuccessful in finding talented people, to whom we could pay equivalent to what we outsource. Question is, how much to pay? I guess this is not really an answerable question. Looking around at the sweat factories that surround us, we pay very well. There is also the tug of Bangalore. From the freshers point of view though, their friends making insane salaries at MNCs always make them dissatisfied. Any recommendations? It depends on people. There are two type of people who behind MNC and Quality of work. People who learn python are passionate about programming, others learn java and c# to get a job. -- * Talk is cheap, show me the code - Linus Torvalds Winning Regards KraceKumar.R http://kracekumar.wordpress.com +91-97906-58304 * *+91-85530-29521* * * ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. Any object oriented language the candidate is comfortable with is fine by us. Unit tests are, however, mandatory. TDD is a huge plus. Question is, how much to pay? Figure out who your competition in the hiring space is (this could be very very different from your business competitors). Find out how much they pay. Then do your best to pay more. For us, this means companies like ThoughtWorks, Amazon and co. We try to pay salaries that are close to these firms (though matching Amazon is still slightly beyond us for now). From the freshers point of view though, their friends making insane salaries at MNCs always make them dissatisfied. Any recommendations? Yes - pay more than the MNCs or at least get close and compensate for the delta with a brilliant work environment. Unfortunately, I have no better answer than this. Folks typically evaluate a prospective employer on salary, work environment (including how awesome prospective colleagues are, how much they can learn, and how transparent and honest the organisations is) and the work itself. There is no magic formula that allows you to hire better people while paying significantly less than your competitors, but you can usually swing it by being somewhere close on salary and doing better than them on the last two parameters. Honestly, a small company that can't trounce an MNC on work environment is doing something seriously wrong. There is also the tug of Bangalore. Identify why this is the case and look to plug the gaps. If the attractiveness lies in the lifestyle, then you may wish to open up a branch in Bangalore. I should warn you though that on the hiring front, things are no better here :) Best, Sidu Ponnappa. http://c42.in http://rubymonk.com On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Rajeev J Sebastian rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Sidu and Senthil for your recommendations, which were very helpful. As you suggested, the most important change we can make is to test directly with code. Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. As for pay, we are willing to pay in return for exceptional work. We outsource a LOT and pay well for absorbing the responsibility and risk. But we have so far been unsuccessful in finding talented people, to whom we could pay equivalent to what we outsource. Question is, how much to pay? I guess this is not really an answerable question. Looking around at the sweat factories that surround us, we pay very well. There is also the tug of Bangalore. From the freshers point of view though, their friends making insane salaries at MNCs always make them dissatisfied. Any recommendations? Regards Rajeev J Sebastian ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:31 PM, kracekumar ramaraju kracethekingma...@gmail.com wrote: True... to some extent. Like just about anything else, you have to choose wisely. My four years at Kanbay (now CapGemini) taught me a lot of lessons in organization, management as well as presentation. Well my question is how much did you learn about programming, api design, Unit testing, algo design Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting engineering skills; we're all on the same side there. What I was hinting at above is that if you get lucky and get good managers at a mid-to-large co, you have the opportunity to learn how organization in the large works, and that's an important skill too. That said, I should clarify, when I say, 'spend the first couple of years maintaining somebody else's crap code', I say that from personal experience. Maintaining something you didn't build teaches you a lot about the importance of building good readable, maintainable, malleable code. I know I write good code because I don't want people who end up maintaining it (myself included) to go through the agony I had to back then. That's probably one the biggest takeaways I have from back there; and that was what I was primarily pointing to. It usually turns out to be a bit of a trial by fire and you have to fight the urge to just get sh!t done. Not to mention the people around you who churn out bad code on a regular basis. But if you can battle through it, you'll have a better appreciation for these practices. I realize this is a little backwards, but then again I know it worked for me. YMMV. As for core engineering skills, programming, API design, algorithms, etc- I learned most of that on my own and guess I would have no matter where I was. But that's just me. We got a computer at home very early on, a trusty 386 way back in the early 90's and started off right then and never looked back. Arguably, Kanbay didn't really ^help^ on that front, but I did end up with a few good colleagues to bounce ideas off. But in my experience, this usually is something that has to come from within. Once you've established that the person has an innate need to better themselves there's a whole slew of resources out there at your disposal. Of course, having totally awesome programmers around you doesn't hurt (loosely translated from- helps a whole whopping bunch!) :) I'll concede the bit on testing here. I don't think I would ever have appreciated testing if it wasn't for my time at ThoughtWorks. , agility Interestingly enough, I got my first lessons in agility from a client director at one of the projects at Kanbay. Although, we didn't call it agile or lean back then and he was quite the visionary, so I guess I got lucky again. :) how to distinguish good programmer from bad programmer. There was a fairly simple heuristic some of us went with, a good programmer is simply someone *you* would like to learn from. I liked that so much, that I haven't really bothered to ponder that question much beyond that. Sorry If i am rude :) I promise to take offence ^only^ if you meant to be rude. ;) - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:56 PM, kracekumar ramaraju kracethekingma...@gmail.com wrote: I am advanced python novice. There's an interesting tautology I can use, and... People who learn python are passionate about programming, others learn java and c# to get a job. ... there's a line that was uncalled for - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting engineering skills; we're all on the same side there. What I was hinting at above is that if you get lucky and get good managers at a mid-to-large co, you have the opportunity to learn how organization in the large works, and that's an important skill too. Note: You reminded me of my favorite line People don't leave organization , they leave managers. That said, I should clarify, when I say, 'spend the first couple of years maintaining somebody else's crap code', I say that from personal experience. Maintaining something you didn't build teaches you a lot about the importance of building good readable, maintainable, malleable code. I know I write good code because I don't want people who end up maintaining it (myself included) to go through the agony I had to back then. That's probably one the biggest takeaways I have from back there; and that was what I was primarily pointing to. In most support project you don't change code until there is a requirement from client, else you end up supporting the tickets etc... -- * Talk is cheap, show me the code - Linus Torvalds Winning Regards KraceKumar.R http://kracekumar.wordpress.com +91-97906-58304 * *+91-85530-29521* * * ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:15 PM, kracekumar ramaraju kracethekingma...@gmail.com wrote: In most support project you don't change code until there is a requirement from client, else you end up supporting the tickets etc... They're not all support (as in keep the lights on) projects, there's maintenance (as in make the lights brighter) and enhancements (as in put in more/new lights) gigs out there too. - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Rajeev J Sebastian rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com wrote: As you suggested, the most important change we can make is to test directly with code. +1 to Sidu's suggestion about having candidates write code before they come in; have used that to much success. Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. Let the candidate submit code in a language/platform of their choosing. You want to give them the opportunity to put _their best foot_ forward. That said, you should also list out languages/platforms that you prefer; these would be the ones you've worked in and can evaluate the best in. They don't necessarily have to be the primary tool you use at work every day, just a common medium to trade insights into code. - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Saager Mhatre saager.mha...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Rajeev J Sebastian rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com wrote: As you suggested, the most important change we can make is to test directly with code. +1 to Sidu's suggestion about having candidates write code before they come in; have used that to much success. Almost forgot about this- while we're talking about code submissions I'd like to plug reliscore.com It's like a market place for organizations to put up code assignments and candidates/students to solve them and submit answers back. Our own Navin Kabra is deeply involved with this initiative. - d ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Sidu Ponnappa lorddae...@gmail.com wrote: Do you do your tests in Python, or whatever language the fresher knows? So far, we have not received a single resume mentioning Python. Any object oriented language the candidate is comfortable with is fine by us. Unit tests are, however, mandatory. TDD is a huge plus. Question is, how much to pay? Figure out who your competition in the hiring space is (this could be very very different from your business competitors). Find out how much they pay. Then do your best to pay more. For us, this means companies like ThoughtWorks, Amazon and co. We try to pay salaries that are close to these firms (though matching Amazon is still slightly beyond us for now). From the freshers point of view though, their friends making insane salaries at MNCs always make them dissatisfied. Any recommendations? Yes - pay more than the MNCs or at least get close and compensate for the delta with a brilliant work environment. Unfortunately, I have no better answer than this. Folks typically evaluate a prospective employer on salary, work environment (including how awesome prospective colleagues are, how much they can learn, and how transparent and honest the organisations is) and the work itself. There is no magic formula that allows you to hire better people while paying significantly less than your competitors, but you can usually swing it by being somewhere close on salary and doing better than them on the last two parameters. Honestly, a small company that can't trounce an MNC on work environment is doing something seriously wrong. We have a rather good work environment. But trying to convince freshers of this is close to impossible, as they have inflated ideas about what the IT industry is really like. There is also the tug of Bangalore. Identify why this is the case and look to plug the gaps. If the attractiveness lies in the lifestyle, then you may wish to open up a branch in Bangalore. I should warn you though that on the hiring front, things are no better here :) Thanks Sidu. All of this is really good advice. Regards Rajeev J Sebastian ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] [chennaipy 1126] [XPost][Slightly OT] Could you share your experiences about Python Freelance programming, from a programmer's perspective
Vishal vsapr...@gmail.com writes: Hello Everyone, I have a friend, who's finished his education and looking for work. He asked me about freelance programming and I had nothing to share with him. Thought of getting to know this mode of professional programming. I wouldn't recommend it for a fresher. It's kind of harrowing and there's a lot of non programming stuff necessary to do it full time. I would recommend that she join a startup or a small company and get some real work experience before jumping into this. During my initial freelancing/moonlighting days, I spent time on odesk and other sites but didn't really get very far. All the projects I've really done came from contacts rather than websites. I am trying to get a feel of how it is to do freelance programming...in Python..in India ? It's not *hard* but it's not easy either. You need a reputation which you might have straight out of college but that's not very common. I'd recommend some time working for a regular (though small) company to cut your teeth before getting into this full time. [...] -- ~noufal http://nibrahim.net.in Evil isn't all bad. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
