Re: [CTRL] Republican vs Democrat
-Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- If fact there is no difference between the parties. It's as if they are all the same, exactly as you stated. How is it we can find no honorable men to run for an office and when we do find a good man, we can't get him elected because the local party boss won't put him on the ballot, or the electorate fails to recognize the integrity in the candidate, or the election is plain stolen because of voter fraud? It seems like a dark, deep hole. Good article, Jim Norman It is relatively simple When you rob Peter and give the money to Paul, you can generally count on Paul's vote. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why Can't Cameras Show Senators?
-Caveat Lector- Brian Redman wrote: -Caveat Lector- Why can't C-Span's camera show the Senators? When Sen. Tom Harkin made his objection to the senators being called "jurors," the camera was allowed to show us Harkin. But ordinarily the camera is not allowed to show us views of the assembled senators. The reasoning behind the disallowal of camera's viewing of senators can't be based on the senators being "jurors" (as Harkin made clear.) What is the judicial logic that disallows camera views of the assembled senators? They don't want you to see them: dozing, cutting out paper dolls, scratching themselves, etc. As the adage goes, "One shouldn't watch laws or sausage when they're being made." Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Sno0wl wrote: Congratulations, Hawk! You have made it to my Filter-Delete list. Good. I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. You also apparently have no idea what YOU are doing here. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say to people on this list that has any value.. I wouldn't think that you would. And until something convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith. Good. IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You are clearly a no-win kinda guy. I hadn't noticed... Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day. I will... or maybe the Cadillac... Gee If I were to get rid of the Cadillac, would it materialize in some African's front yard? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carlene, you need to realize something. RoadsEnd, otherwise known as Kris Milligan IS THE LIST OWNER and chief moderator/editor, therefore he can do anything he wants. Additionally do you think he is going to sit idly by while people make ridiculous statements in support of slavery using the Bible for justification? You, Sir, are an ignorant son-of-a-bitch... I issue the same challenge to you that I issued to dumb-ass... You show me ONE statement I made "in support of slavery." Then, while you're at it, show me ONE biblical passage that condemns slavery. You cannot do it, and yet you add your stupid remarks to those of Kris... I keep asking him, and now I challenge you... Show me just one biblical passage that says slavery is immoral... AND show me just one place where I have supported slavery or said I was advocate slavery. Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to answer his legitimate questions. Damn! You're stupid! What Kris has been doing, and what you are applauding is dumb-ass Kris's continually calling me a hypocrite and a liar, but never ONCE producing evidence of a lie or any inconsistency with what I say and what I practice. On the other hand, I have patiently answere EVERY question the dumb-ass has asked... Take up the challenge... show me otherwise. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought this issue was satisfactorily addressed, why is it that you are having a hard time with it? Calling someone a hypocrite when they are one is not name calling it is merely telling it like it is. The issue has not been addressed AT ALL, much less "satisfactorily." Calling someone a hypocrite WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE is nothing by juvenile name-calling and hasn't a damn thing to do with 'telling it like it is.' However, I'm glad you jumped in here Teo10 or whatever... YOU point out the inconsistency between what I say and what I do... Ball's in your court... jump on it.. Discussion of the Bible WHEN IT IS USED TO PROSELYTIZE, OR ARGUE BELIEFS, AND OR FAITH IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST. Then maybe you should remind your pal Kris of this rule... I certainly have not violated it.. If so, show me where I used the bible to proseliytize... nor have I urged anyone to believe it.. What I said was that calling something a "sin" requires a bit more than mere personal opinion, and that the Southern people in the mid 1800's looked to the bible as their source for determining right and wrong.. If that isn't a fact, then YOU produce evidence to the contrary.. This is beginning to sound like a broken record... Using the Bible in arguing CONSPIRACY THEORY is acceptable, or to try and support ideas that are related to conspiracy theory. Have you reminded Kris of this rule? Where is this rule posted? Did you make it up just now? You want to argue religious conspiracy, like how Paul, formerly known as Saul, becomes the chief proponent of "Christianity" and an Apostle when he never met the Lord, and worked so much evil against the nascent church, that is okay. You want to argue how Paul's writing contradict those of Jesus on a number of points, or perhaps how he seemed to have many friends in Rome and may not have suffered as he would have everyone believe, that is okay too. Arguments that point out Paul's reliance upon the Mystery religions, such as Mithras and Attis worship for the main forms of religious expression in "Christianity" would also be acceptable. Stupid, but anything goes... These are only examples of course, and many others would also have equal validity as things that might require the Bible to support the position. No proselytizing is allowed, so questions of faith and belief are not acceptable. blah, blah, blah give me a break! The reason that Kris is going into the Bible himself is that he is trying to illustrate the hypocrisy of Hawk in his statements regarding slavery. And, I might add, he's doing a piss poor job... He hasn't found a singe passage or verse ... and neither will you... Prove me wrong. hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector-
Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
-Caveat Lector-
Okay, I'll bite. Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at
Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the
written word}
Don't see any connection to slavery.
John 8:31ff: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold
to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's
descendants and have never been slaves on anyone. How can you say we shall
be set free?"
Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also apparently
"missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical slavery..
which you also seem to have missed.
Acts 7:6ff: "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants
will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and
mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as
slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and
worship me in this place.' Then he gave Abraham the convenant of
circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him
eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and
Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs."
I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive
Concordance of the Bible. There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but
more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV. The
Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came
along.
But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the
Hebrews to be held in bondage. It merely said that they WOULD be, and that Egypt
WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the Hebrews
were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told him
to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his
refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes
clear. There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt
because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph.
I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian
theological texts is rather illuminating.
That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I would
be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could be my
"take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all. You be the
judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper
hermaneutical procedures. In looking through your concordance, don't look for
"slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant.
Hawk
DECLARATION DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Howdy Hypocrite, Good morning... Having a nice day? Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries? I haven't seen any Is it something you sent today? So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they consistent? "Hermaneutics" is the art or science of "interpretation" primarily of written documents, and is usually applied to biblical interpretation. However, the "rules" are common in literature and historical/archealogical fields, and are not restricted to bible study. Check this site: http://www.greatnorthern.net/~ken/herm.html There are books on the subject, and quite a few "hits" can be found using the "Hotbot" search engine. Here are some general principles: Hermaneutics- Rules for Correct Biblical interpretation 1. TAKE THE WORDS IN THEIR USUAL AND ORDINARY SENSE. A. as the people to whom they were written would have understood B. NOT necessarily literal C. CAREFULLY note the response of the hearers ( do they understand or not ) [ only go as far as you need to in the rules ] 2. TAKE THE WORDS IN THE SENSE THAT THE PHRASE INDICATES (short context) How is the phrase using this word? [in the Original language] ( verb, noun, etc.) - "faith" could mean 'the act of believing' or 'the elements of believe'(as in statement of faith) or 'the whole religion itself' (as in the Christian faith). ex.- an (anarthrous noun); nn (noun); repro (relative pronoun) 3. TAKE THE WORDS IN CONTEXT ( long context ) this is sometimes referred to as ' reading around the text' ( several verses before and after the target text ) 4. CONSIDER THE OBJECT OR DESIGN OF THE PASSAGE A. General purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated ) B. Specific purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated ) 5. CONSULT PARALLEL PASSAGES (P.P.) - direct quotes (of this or others) A. is it a parallel? B. is it an inexact parallel? 6. RECOGNIZE PARALLEL EXCLUSIONS A. note any absence of your target text in any other related passages B. note any absence of your target text in any parallel passages Hypocrite Hawk sez: "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the Hebrews to be held in bondage." So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'. The above is somewhat muddled, but presumably, anyone following the principles of hermaneutics should be able to arrive at a reasonably accurate understanding of written documents... Otherwise, why do automobiles come with "Owner's Manuals?" On the other hand, it could be that the document's author was unable to clearly state what he was trying to say, or that his ideas were inconsistent, and in such cases, it is more difficult, or sometimes impossible to determine the meaning -- For instance, "How to program your VCR" written by some Korean guy who is unfamiliar with English... In which case, you would probably have to resort to the original language (the reason for having study tools such as "Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.") Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one? Certainly... however I would not call it an "exhaustive list." Some examples are: Do not steal, do not commit murder, do not commit adultary, etc. I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them. I feel the same way about it. I do not approve of hypocrisy. Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got your tongue? I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. But even if I had, I don't know anything at all about the subject of intel secret ops, and don't even know what it means. What a . . . chauvanistic goober. Well, maybe so... I may be one of those, since I don't even know what it is. I think I am chauvanistic about some issues As for being a goober, I think that is slang (or African) for "peanut," and I am fairly certain that I am not of that species. However, I do know what a hypocrite is, and I do not think I am one of those. I have asked you numerous times to provide evidence of my hypocrisy, and you have steadfastly refused to do so. I have decided that you have no such evidence, based on your reluctance or inability to produce it. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 1/14/99 9:03:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do not steal
How about stealing a humans' sovereignity
That's a "made up" crime and a "made up" sin... something you came up with on your
own, apparently... The bible quite clearly, in many passages, indicates that
capturing a person from another country is one of the means of obtaining
slaves and it does not condemn the act as evil or sinful.
The origin of the term "slave" is traced to the German sklave, meaning a captive
of the Slavonic race who had been forced into servitude (compare Slav)
Procuring of slaves: There are eight previously-listed methods, and now (9)
Capture in war.-- Thousands of men, women and children were taken in war as
captives and reduced, sometimes, to most menial slavery. Such slavery, however,
was more humane than wholesale butchery according to the customs of earlier times
Num 31:7-35. The two principal sources of slave supply were poverty in peace
and plunder in war.
Read particularly Numbers 31:25 - 29.
.Num 31:25-30
25 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' {households} of the
congregation, take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of
animal;
27 and divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the
congregation.
28 "And levy a tax for the LORD from the men of war who went out to battle, one in
five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep;
29 take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to
the LORD.
30 "And from the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every
fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the
animals, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the
LORD."
(NAS)
Hawk
DECLARATION DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Short memory, hawk? I am sometimes afflicted with short memory... What are specifically addressing? hawk sez: I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, . . . Then dufus asked: Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got your tongue? Hawk said: I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. OK... I still don't know what questions or query you asked about "intel secret ops." As for my response that I didn't know what you were talking about, not one time, in all my USAF career was what I did called "intel secret ops." Its a phrase you made up, so far as I know. You seem to "make up" quite a lot of stuff. Now, just what was it you wanted to know concerning what YOU call "intel secret ops"? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/11/99 6:03:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Explanation: The poorest 40 percent of Americans did not contribute as much to the lifestyle and productivity of American individuals as did Bill Gates. Unlike the poorest 40%, everyone who bought goods from Microsoft did so as a voluntary decision, whereas many of the poorest 40% were recipients of funds extorted by threat of violence from the other 60%. Hawk, you seem to live in a dark pit. On the contrary, my dear man, I live in the bright sunshine of Texas! I even ocassionally venture outside the borders of this magnificent republic. Your response is so appalling that i first passed it by because in the face of such unreality, there doesn't seem to be much to say. Why, Son, that's because there really ISN'T much to say against it, which is all you have any interest in... So, I suppose you're going to bless us with more blather But i will say this. See? I knew it! Suppose that you are perfectly right. I am. Gates wealth relative to the 40% is solely due to his superior productivity so that God Almighty and all decent right thinking citizens see the justice. I might have something to do with saving some back for a "rainy day," hiding some from the greedy and voracious govm't tax collectors, prospering due to the adage, "Help enough people get what they want, and you can have anything you want," and other factors that such as thrift and generosity.. I suspect there is more to it than "pure productivity." Suppose Gates were to increase his productivity even more in ratio to his fellows so that his wealth now exceeds 80% of the population. Would such a wealth distribution be wise even for Mr. Gates? Why not? The fact that he has more doesn't mean that I have less If I didn't have two automobiles, would one suddenly appear in front of some African's hut? As a matter of fact, my own wealth has been INCREASING during the period of time that Bre'r Gates' has been increasing... Ain't that sort of wierd in your contorted economic theory? If there is some causal relationship, I hope Gates does continue to increase his wealth. You haven't come to realize that "wet streets don't cause rain." If so, do you suppose that there might be some point at which society becomes so unstable that the game is over? Don't wish too hard for it... You seem to always get around to some veiled "people's revolution" BS... You're a lot like NUREV, both of you rave on with your Walter Middy delusions of revolutionary grandeur, but I suspect that neither of you would have any idea of what to do if you were suddenly plopped into the middle of revolution... like my Mercedes suddenly materializing in front of the African's hut. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Greatest Generation of Collectivist Fools!
-Caveat Lector- Lloyd Miller wrote: -Caveat Lector- Just listening to Tom Brokaw on MSNBC re: his book, The Greatest Generation. What crap! The World War II generation: traumatized and buffaloed by the depression in Roosevelt's fascist New Deal and then tricked by the simple minded Pearl Harbor strategem into the useless slaughter of WWII quickly forgetting the "Merchants of Death" lessons of WWI! Dispatching Nazi and Japanese totalitarianism and paving the way for Soviet and Red Chinese totalitarianism. A worthless, spineless herd of pathetic ruling class pawns, for sure! Hey I like what you say tell us more! Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: The Price We Pay: The 10 Worst Corporations of 1998
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: The Price We Pay: The 10 Worst Corporations of 1998 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:47:30 -0500 From: Robert Weissman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list CORP-FOCUS [EMAIL PROTECTED] What did we learn in 1998? Speaking of the clammoring for "documentation" and "citations" and "URL's" for everything contrary to what the brain-dead liberals believe where is the documentation for all of this? Hawk Microsoft Chairman and CEO Bill Gates' net wealth -- $51 billion -- is greater than the combined net worth of the poorest 40 percent of Americans (106 million people). Hundreds of hospitals are "dumping" patients who can't afford to pay. The feds are criminally prosecuting big tobacco companies for smuggling cigarettes into Canada. (Never mind addicting young kids to smoke and thus condemning them to a certain, albeit, slow, death -- can't criminally prosecute them for that.) There's a bull market in stock fraud. Prescription drugs may cause 100,000 deaths a year. Two Fox-TV reporters in Florida are fired for trying to report on adverse health effects associated with genetically engineered foods. The U.S. Department of Agriculture proposes that genetically engineered foods be labelled "organic." Coal companies continue to cheat on air quality tests as hundreds of coal miners continue to die each year from black lung disease. The North American Securities Administrators Association estimates that Americans lose about $1 million a hour to securities fraud. Robert Reich says that megamergers threaten democracy. Corporate crime explodes, but the academic study of corporate crime vanishes. Three hundred trade unionists around the world were killed in 1997 for defending their rights. Corporate firms lobbying to cripple the Superfund law outnumber environmental groups seeking to defend it by 30 to one. Down on Nike? Chinese political prisoners allegedly make Adidas products. Blue Cross Blue Shield Illinois is a corporate criminal. Chemical companies are testing pesticides on human beings. Senator Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, questions whether the Pentagon's financial controls have suffered a "complete and utter breakdown." Environmental crimes prosecution are down sharply under Clinton/Gore. Bush/Quayle had a better record. Bell Atlantic buys Maurice Sendak's Where the Wild Things Are illustrations to sell telephone products. Companies that have workers die on the job continue to be met with fines. Criminal prosecutions still rare. This is the price we pay for living in Corporate America. Wealth disparity, megamergers and the resulting consolidation of corporate power, commercialism run amok, rampant corporate crime, death without justice, pollution, cancer and an unrelenting attack on democracy. The 1998 market run-up might make plugged-in America feel good about itself, but big business is eating out the democratic foundation of the country, and when the empty shell crumbles, what kind of chaos might we anticipate? If you have justice on your mind, herewith for the tenth consecutive year is Multinational Monitor's effort to pinpoint those responsible. It is, admittedly, a short list -- the Ten Worst Corporations of 1998. But it is a representative list, and as the damage becomes more apparent, as the outrage at, and contempt for, our fearless leaders grows, surely the list, too, will grow. The Ten Worst Corporations of 1998 are: * Chevron, for continuing to do business with a brutal dictatorship in Nigeria and for alleged complicity in the killing of civilian protesters. * Coca-Cola, for hooking America's kids on sugar and soda water. Today, teenage boys and girls drink twice as much soda pop as milk, whereas 20 years ago they drank nearly twice as much milk as soda. * General Motors, for becoming an integral part of the Nazi war machine, and then years later, when documented proof emerges, denying it. * Loral and its chief executive Bernard Schwartz, for dumping $2.2 million into Clinton/Gore and Democratic Party coffers. The Clinton administration responded by approving a human rights waiver to clear the way for technology transfers to China. * Mobil, for supporting the Indonesian military in crushing an indigenous uprising in Aceh province and allegedly allowing the military to use company machinery to dig mass graves. * Monsanto, for introducing genetically engineered foods into the foodstream without adequate safety testing and without labeling, thus exposing consumers to unknown risks. * Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, for pleading guilty to felony crimes for dumping oil in the Atlantic Ocean and then lying to the Coast Guard about it. * Unocal, for engaging in numerous acts of pollution and law violatio
Re: [CTRL] Republican Hate Rhetoric Turns Deadly
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/12/99 9:27:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MJ: While the conclusion may or may NOT be true [cause], what exactly makes the muder of an individual within a 'protected' group WORSE than the murder of some other individual? Yes, murder is murder and the US murder statistics stand out like a malignant cancer. The extreme right wing hate mongers have so many reason and excuses for violence that it is astounding. There is primarily ONE reason for the burden of violence we experience... When a crime is committed, it is not followed SWIFTLY by CERTAIN (and appropriate) punishment. Over 95% of FELONIES in the U.S. are "unsolved," whereas in Japan, over 95% of felonies result in jail time. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slavery (was: Stampeding Bison)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: You might consider that this gal is pulling your leg... Of course, such a story HAS to be a lie, doesn't it? No it doesn't but then, maybe it is.. or maybe its exaggerated... But, it could be the truth... What I said was "consider" ... There is no reason for me to suspect she was lying about this, as she was NOT the type to 'pull one's leg' over anything, let alone a subject of this magnitude... However, you do suspect that anyone who reports a different experience is lying, unless I misread your intent. Her husband, also from the South, related similar experiences... As have blacks of an older generation than their's...you see, I HAVE talked to more than one black person who grew up in the South... That's good... perhaps in another 40 years or so, you will have talked to almost as many as I have, considering I've lived in the South most of my life. I'm not saying that she necessarily is lying, Sure you are...at least be honest about THAT... Well, I guess your accusation is a bit more than "implied." You, Sir, have no basis upon which to accuse me of lying about anything. If you know I any lie that I have told, produce it, or retract your accusation... but I have lived in the South my entire life and have never met anyone associated with the KKK. I suppose you would like us to believe that the KKK doesn't even exist If you want to believe something that isn't true, you certainly can. I don't believe I encouraged you to do so. You seem to have a little difficulty separating fact from fancy... You are a very imaginitive fellow, it appears. I suppose all those lynched blacks hung themselves Not very likely... at least no more likely than the ones lynched in New York City and other places outside the South. I've often wondered, and you may be able to inform me, just how many blacks have been lynched? Do you have a state-by-state breakdown on those numbers? Is it something that was quite common in the South, but somehow it just escaped my notice? Have you bothered to check the Klan-watch reports of KKK activity... There are more KKK members in Ohio and Indiana than there are in the entire South, according to the avowed enemies of the KKK. The northern and mid-western states have FAR MORE KKK members than the Southern states. That's not the point...the point of my statement was that these college- educated blacks -- who got their education at BLACK colleges, since they weren't 'allowed' to attend the white state colleges -- How old are these people? I am 61 years old, and attended a state college with black student, in the South. could not find employment in their field in the South, due to their skin color... so they say There may be another side to that story... I am a mangement consultant with over 500 client companies, most of which are in the south, and I specialize in employment law... From my experience, capable and qualified black applicants are on every manager's "wish list." they had to come North to gain employment in the field they'd gotten their degree in... Yeah, OK... I'm glad they obtained gainful employment somewhere. I'm sure blacks were given equal opportunity to plant clear fields -- for someone else. How many blacks OWNED this property they worked on...? I'd be interested in knowing those figures too... How many were there, June? That is what I'm asking Do your own research. I thought, on the basis of your question, that you had some evidence that blacks were not allowed to own farms, or something. I assure you that any black person with the money to buy a farm would not have a lot of trouble finding a willing seller of such properties. How many blacks do you figure owned the northern factories they worked in? They at least had the opportunity to be shift supervisors and managers... or college professors in integrated colleges, managers of integrated businesses Same here the North is not unique in that. How many blacks were allowed to take over important office and factory jobs, supervisory and managerial positions, when the 'able bodied men' (black men WEREN'T 'able bodied'?) were away at war? "Allowed to take over" ??? Are those jobs just "allotted" to folks, or do they normally have to qualify for them? I was using the wording the previous poster had used, in stating that blacks were 'allowed' to work 'equally' with whites in the fields when 'all the able bodied men' were away at war...so I just wanted to know how many blacks also 'worked equally' with whites in positions of authority in the factories and offices, when the 'abled bodied men' who'd worked there were also off to war... I couldn't answer that question... I will say that from about 1950 I worked at several jobs where I had black supervisors. I do not deny
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: Still voicing OPINION without FACTS, are we? Read the words, June... I believe them to be factual Documents from the era indicate that such was the situation, or that those who were living at the time believed it to be so Documents which you fail to give titles for, let alone quote... This will give you something to start on: "Time On the Cross" by Fogel and Engerman. "A Defense of Virginia and the South" by Dabney. When you finish those, contact me and I'll send you some more. As a matter of FACT, Unitarianism is NOT prevalant here in the Northeast...Unitarianism isn't even Christianity... I have no idea what is prevalant in the northeast now... The same religions that have ALWAYS been prevalent... Probably so... That doesn't alter the fact that Unitarianism has had an influence on them. If I were to say that the opinions of Marx influenced the northeast, or that Napoleon's tactics influenced the Confederacy, it would not be the same as saying the North was Communist and the South was French. OK? Which means you admit that your statement is meaninless drivel... Which means that you cannot decifer between fact and fiction...and appear to be incapable of following a line of connected thoughts... I think I'm wasting my time. You may be aware of any number of facts of which I am unaware... Then why do you continue to post your PERSONAL OPINION and PREJUDICES as if they were FACTS? Hey, lady? The fact that you may know your mother's name (or maybe even your father's name), and I have not been exposed to that information, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not what I say is "fact" or "opinion" unless I am commenting on your ancestors. Jerry praises you for your 'documentation', but yet I've never seen you provide one iota of documentation...and in fact your private opinions posted as 'fact' have been roundly refuted by actual facts time and time again... Well, I just gave you some... And which "private opinions" are you speaking of that have been roundly refuted by actual facts... Don't bother with "all of them," just give me a few. If so, say what's on your mind. I already have, but I'll repeat it: You are an idiot who posts his personal opinion and prejudices as if they were a matter of fact, Well, you're a super nice lady who is just way too sharp for me to pull that off on you, I suppose... But the challenge is still open... You provide one such "personal opinion or prejudice" that has been refuted by fact. When you do, I will confess that you are correct. without providing a shred of documentation; and when you're obvious fallacies are pointed out by documented facts, (by the way, it should be "your") I haven't seen the documented facts which point out my fallacies... Again, just summarize two or three for me. you turn around and start calling those who provide FACTS to counter your prejudices any variety of names. Oh? I don't think that is true, although memory may have failed me. Who, or when, specifically, did I call anyone who provided a fact to counter a prejudice any kind of name?? Maybe I owe them an apology... provide the info. But if you continue with your beligerant posts, I am going to start responding in kind... If DOCUMENTED FACTS are considered 'beligerant' by you, so be it... What DOCUMENTED FACT have you provided, that contradicted what I have said? and I guarantee you, I am meaner than you are, Don't bet on it... Don't have to. So how 'bout you just lighten up a little bit, and be respectful... Again, if pointing out that you are posting personal opinion and prejudice as if they were 'facts' is considered 'disrespectful', Well, I sort of think that calling someone a liar, without proof of their lying, or calling someone an "idiot" without documentation of that charge, might be considered disrepectful... It is where I live, anyway. Maybe its different in your neck of the woods. so be it...I will NOT cease to point out your obvious errors... I don't know of the first one you've pointed out yet. I personally feel your agenda is to disrupt this list in any manner that you can, and that you're just looking for an excuse to start up again. You keep challenging me... I assure you that I don't personally care to have discussions with you, so accusing me of wanting to be disruptive is silly. If you don't believe that, give it a try. Drop the discussion with me, and I assure you I'll leave you alone. I will go on record as stating that I for one do NOT welcome you back. Gee, I was hoping you were happy about it. Should my feelings be hurt? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allo
[CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are two rather interesting photographs related to the CSA prison camp in Tyler, Texas (Camp Ford). One shows a group of prisoners photographed upon their departure from prison.. They were all dressed rather nattily, with frock coats, ties, "plantation" hats, etc. In fact, they "could have been dressed for the ball. " Shame on you, Hawk. Have you never heard of Potemkin Village? Why "shame on me"? The photos are available for anyone to see. And, no, I have not heard of Potemkin Village, at least I have no recollection of it. Does it have some bearing on prisoners at Camp Ford, Texas? I think that the distance between us on how the slaves lived and were treated is due to two things. The living conditions and psychological environment of the slaves varied enormously between regions and plantations. No doubt there was quite a lot of variation.. The same is true of family life, churches, local politics, etc. That is why "history by anecdote" is limited in its usefulness to determine "general patterns." I place greater credence in the slaves themselves as to what their lives were like. "Greater credence" compared with what? You have to remember that the "Slave Narratives" were recorded in the mid-1930's (or thereabouts). That was about 70 years after the Civil War ended. Any "first-hand" recollections of life as a slave would have been based on child-hood experiences, influenced by "family tradition" passed down by older slaves. When I was a lad, we had several families of "colored folks" who lived and worked on my grandfather's farm. The patriarc of that group was "Uncle" John Hardin. He had been a slave, and we sometimes talked about it because of my interest in "old times" or history -- even as a youth. His personal recollections were that life was pleasant -- but then, most of his days were filled with playing and games. He recalled "rumors of war" and how fearful everyone was when soldiers approached the vicinity (Union or Confederate), and he recalled being excluded from the family council (because he was too young) that was held to decide what the ex-slaves were going to do "now that we're free." He and the other children sneaked under the house and listened to the debate/conversation. They all decided to "stay at home," and their descendants are still in that community. As for placing greater credence on narratives of slaves compared with other sources, we must remember that one of the conditions of slavery was greatly reduced (or maybe even the absence of) self-management or personal liberty. Hardly anyone likes that condition... If we were to conduct "Teen-age Narratives" of almost any era, we would probably find that they considered their lives somewhat more "terrible" than the facts would justify... hence the moaning and groaning about restrictions on their activities, choice of clothing, entertainment, etc. We'd have to consider A LOT of other evidence along with their personal feelings. That does not imply that SOME teenagers have had horrible experiences... it just doesn't support the idea that all have... Again, history by individual anecdote is limited in the whole scope of things. During the 1950s and 1960s when the South was being weaned from Jim Crow, it was common for Southern apologists to say things like "Some of my best friends..." or "We all got along fine here until those outsiders began stirring things up." One doesn't have to be a "southern apologist" to say those things... It happens to be true. Surely you aren't saying that "some of the best friends" of white people were Negroes? And, as for "getting along fine," it is quite true that there was a lot less turmoil before the 60's... You should NOT infer that I approve of "Jim Crow" laws. I don't. I do not think there should be any laws requiring or prohiting personal relationships based on race. However, I do advocate that people should not be prohibited from being racist "by law." It doesn't work anyway... Racism has not decreased as a result of "civil rights" laws. [My wife attended a YWCA in the South during this time. When she and a friend arrived by car to the motel of a small town on their trip, they were frightened by the paranoia of the folks in the motel lobby. Many questions aimed at determining whether the travelers were there "to stir up trouble."] And with good reason to be concerned, in my opinion. The apologists for slavery in the US are hardly alone, the phenomena is common enough. For instance, i have no doubt that if we asked the Japanese who participated in the POW camps where American p
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
n child labor and for homogenizing the population; and last, but not least, Application: Don't buy from Wal-Mart, although I haven't heard of any small town in America having been crushed by a Wal-Mart store... Seems like everyone but the over-priced and under-stocked "mom and pop" store owners are exceedingly glad to have the opportunity to buy reasonably priced items from a wide selection. It was the customers who abandoned mom and pop, and not Wal-Mart, who forced them to go out of business. As the millennium approaches, keep your eyes open for nasty corporate predators in your neck of the woods. Keep a list. Check it twice. Then send along your nominations for the Ten Worst Corporations of 1999. Here are mine (although not corporations) The Department of State: For sticking their noses into every other countries' business, and making me pay for it. The Department of Justice: For making everything that isn't mandatory, illegal. The Federal Aviation Agency (or whatever its called now): For having more employees than there ARE licensed pilots in the U.S. The FBI/DEA: For maintaining the high profit returns on drugs, thus inducing all kinds of folks into the business. The Department of Agriculture: For paying people NOT to grow crops. The Department of Labor: For making it increasingly difficult to hire anyone at a price that might produce a profit on their work. Heck, you get the general idea.. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slavery (was: Stampeding Bison)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote: I was raised in the old South in Claxton, Georgia 1941-1949 and I can tell you from personal experience that the old South I experienced respected everyone. There was no racial tension as today. Black people wanted to be with their kind and whites wanted the same. Bull. That's what you WANT to believe, to justify your racism. Oh... So am I to gather from this that YOU know more of what HE experienced than he does? My experience is pretty close to his, although I wouldn't say there was "no" racial tension. It just wasn't a very big issue with blacks or whites. You can call me a racist if you wish, but before you do, you should check the racial mixture of my family. Try talking to the BLACKS who lived in the South at that time (as I have), and see if they were oh so content as you would like to believe... Try? I talked every day with BLACKS who were living in the South -- along with me -- at that time... You might want to consider that personal, first-hand, on-the-scene experience counts for something maybe even more than "having A black friend" -- you have ONE black friend? Only one who grew up in the South... On the other hand, I have MANY black friends who grew up in the South WITH ME. I have a black friend who grew up down south, having to watch the local KKK'rs walk by her house -- in full regalia -- going to and from their meetings...and being made to smile and wave to them...I can tell you, SHE and her family were NOT content, but knew what they had to do to keep from being lynched and their house burned down... You might consider that this gal is pulling your leg... and you've fallen for it, hook-line-and-sinker. I'm not saying that she necessarily is lying, but I have lived in the South my entire life and have never met anyone associated with the KKK. I have never met a black person who has encountered anyone I have seen KKK "rallies" on TV, and it is almost comical... There are about six KKK-ers, 600 policemen, 500 "news" reporters, and 50 or 60 hecklers booing the KKK guys. Regarding the anecdotal "evidence" of your black frined... Most of us have heard of black author (cannot think of her last name) who wrote "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings," and her horrifying tales of KKK rampages in her home town, even directed at her poor terrified family... Well, my wife grew up during the time period of the book, living about 500 yards from those "terrified black folks"... Who, by the way, were middle-class store owners (what passed for a convenience store in those days)... My wife and her sisters went almost daily to that place of business, which was next to the home of the "terrified blacks." There's a reason they moved up North...because the South didn't provide them the opportunities in employment the North did, because of their race... Have you bothered to check the Klan-watch reports of KKK activity... There are more KKK members in Ohio and Indiana than there are in the entire South, according to the avowed enemies of the KKK. The northern and mid-western states have FAR MORE KKK members than the Southern states. Lest you jump to conclusions, I hasten to add that I know that racism exists and has existed in the South (as well as the North), and that I am opposed to what I know of the KKK as it exists in our modern day. But I think black comedian/philosopher Dick Gregory was pretty close to right when he said, "In the South, they don't care how *close* we get, as long as we don't get too rich. In the North, they don't care how rich we get, as long as we don't get too close." We worked together Black and White to plant and clear the crops since most of the able bodied men were still at war. I'm sure blacks were given equal opportunity to plant clear fields -- for someone else. How many blacks OWNED this property they worked on...? I'd be interested in knowing those figures too... How many were there, June? How many blacks do you figure owned the northern factories they worked in? How many owned the Hotels they worked in? Who was keeping them from buying those factories, farms, and hotels? How many blacks were allowed to take over important office and factory jobs, supervisory and managerial positions, when the 'able bodied men' (black men WEREN'T 'able bodied'?) were away at war? "Allowed to take over" ??? Are those jobs just "allotted" to folks, or do they normally have to qualify for them? Oh, that's a rhetorical question... Of course nowadays, they ARE allotted... its called "Affirmative Action" and "Racial Set-Aside" programs... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing!
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Carlene M. Wojahn wrote: or even that of 135 years ago, you got to remember the differences in the cultures between the north and the south, and that culture includes their religion. How was the religion of the South different from that of the North? The north, and particularly the northeast, was under the strong influence of Unitarianism, whereas the South was primarily Calvinistic That's the short answer, but the two philosophies are diametrically opposite to each other. What Roadsend explained is that when people start to use any religious treatise to support their views, one no longer has 'discussion' but prosyletizing...since one's religious beliefs all boil down to belief and faith, not facts. Anyone who expresses "strong opinions" based on what they've learned (rather than pure emotionalism) is expressing a thought based on their "religion," even if it is atheism. In the discourse leading up to the present discussion, someone opined that slavery was a "sin." However, when someone (such as I did) pointed out the *historical fact* that the Southern people did not consider it a "sin" based on their understanding of what is "sinful" as outlined in the Bible, that is NOT prosylitizing, but offering a historical basis for various actions... These *facts* -- like all "facts" -- are evididence to support a thesis, and not advocacy for any religion. Now, I am loathe to get into a "religious debate" on this list, but the bible is set forth primarily as a document (or documents) that claim to relate historical facts and offer some evidence of their claims. Thus, when one reads the Washington Post or the New York times, although the reported "history" may be hours old rather than hundreds of years, the reader who accepts what is said, is doing so "by faith." Those who reject tabloid news are rejecting it because they do not think the evidence supports the "news." Without first-hand knowledge, both views are taken "by faith." So if it is reported that, for instance, that U.S. warplanes bombed Iraq, the reader's expressions of belief or disbelief do not consititute a "religious debate." I could argue for the establishment of some law based on what Buddha taught...but if other's do not follow Buddhism, my argument is meaningless, and if I insist on quoting tenets of Buddhism, I'm then on a soapbox, prosyletizing my PERSONAL beliefs/faith/superstition, and not DISCUSSING FACTS. However, if you say that the VietNamese Buddist monks (during the 1960's) were involved in a revolution against the Catholic French, and their self-inceneration was a sign of their Buddist beliefs justified suicide as a tactic of revolution, you would not be "on a soapbox, prosyletizing PERSONAL belief" but discussing facts -- as you understood them, not having had the personal opportunity to discuss their purpose nor intent to cook themselves in public -- which would at least imply some stronger motive than a simple adult temper-tantrum. Now, I COULD discuss aspects of life in a Buddhist country, and compare how their political system and quality of life compare to, say, a Moslem or 'Christian' country...that would be discussing FACTS...but if the discussion degenerates into an argument about which religion is 'correct', then it's OT for this list... But of course, that is precisely what has taken place in the past few days. At least I haven't advocated that anyone "get saved" by accepting whatever religion that I adhere to... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- Welcome back, Hawk. Many of us missed hearing your arguments however we disagreed because your supporting evidence offered something to get one's teeth into. Thanks for the welcome. I'm not sure what to say regarding your remarks concerning the scriptures since, apparently, some are grievously offended by any mention of spiritual or moral matters - at least they are offended when scriptures are referenced as opposed to, say, Urantia channeled baloney. I will only point out that we are directed away from legalism and toward general principles so i am puzzled by your statement that the principles cannot be applied in the specific. It seems to me that they could then never be applied. That's an interesting question.. It seems to me that there are any number of "general summaries" or guidelines that "usually" apply... While I am not in agreement with the over-all thesis of "situation ethics," I do that that general principles may be over-ruled by specific guidelines. Let's say that it is a general rule that a soldier should obey his superior. However, there may be specific rules that speak to more carefully defined situations. If a superior officer tells Pvt. Peabody, "Strip that woman's clothing from her body and rape her," then Pvt. Peabody should be responsible enough to say that rape of a civilian by a soldier is prohibited by a specific rule. If the "general rule" is to obey the superior officer, and he superior officer says, toss a grenade into that building... BUT, the soldier knows that non-combatant women or children are hiding in there for safety, Pvt Peabody would be justified in refusing the order, which (under other circumstances) might be perfectly litigitimate. Thus, when a multitude of very specific guidelines are stated in which slave holders and slaves are instructed in the proper manner of conducting themselves in their relationship, and never once even an added footnote that "slavery is, after all, evil," then we cannot apply a general rule of treating people in a manner that we would like to be treated as covering that issue. In 1st John, for instance, there is a statement that "Christians don't sin." However, in the next few sentences, John talks about all kinds of sin that Christians are known to have committed (and are likely to again). It is somewhat along the lines of a father saying, "Son, you are a Smith... and we Smith's don't act that way," when the conversation was initiated precisely because a Smith was acting that way. Another passage comes to mind: "Answer NOT a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him," and in the very next verse, written by the same author, he goes on to say, "ANSWER a food according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own conceit." So, the actor's action may depend on the intended or anticipated result. To make this somewhat topical... Most of us would say that lying is a bad sociological action... and most of us would tell our children that one should not lie. However, in some circumstances lying might be the proper thing to do... after all, what is camoflage, if it isn't an attempt to deceive someone (usually someone bent on killing you)? You speak of the slave mentality and i know that it lives in many people. However, IMO the root of it is in oppression. When folks get so frustrated and despair of being allowed to do, they sometimes sort of give up and go along with the notion that if something good is going to happen, it must come from massah (the corporation, government, church, et al). Of course this is not confined to actual ex-slaves. Right.. having once been a private in the Army, I understand the concept. If one's dedication to self-discipline, hard work, dedication, and honesty aren't likely to be rewarded, it certainly dampens the enthusiasm for such ideals. I have visited several formerly Communist nations... The quality of workmanship is deplorable! Why go to any extra effort, if those efforts won't make any beneficial effect in one's life? I might say the same thing seems to raise its head concerning a large number of government employees. You ask about what state had the removal of thumbs as punishment for learning to read. The plantations were in the bush. I don't agree with that as a general statement. There was a highly structured society in the Confederate States. Plantations were not isolated societies. The law was massah and vice versa. When you read the narratives of the ex-slaves your eyes are opened. In some sense, you are exactly right... The "law" was generally whatever the master said... But not in any appreciable degree than the law governing a husband/wife or parent/child, or even employer/apprentice relationship. However, I have already directed the list's attention to various laws o
Re: [CTRL] The natural condition of slavery, was ??
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: I see what you mean. Perhaps, and i may have been one of those, we should have used the term "evil." Same difference... In order to say that ANYTHING is "evil" or "sinful" or even "wrong," there has to be some basis for the statement... If something is said to be "wrong," I want to know what the declaration is based on... ie Do you mean its "against the law," or "unconstitutional," or "against our rules," or "not according to Hoyle," or "because my grandmother said so." Just because I don't approve of something, that doesn't make it wrong... Incidentally, if you will allow me to return to a previous response, you had some doubt that it was a common thing for massah or the overseer to force himself on the slave women. You quoted some stats on mulatto children. I live in an area that resembles a sort of Noah's Ark of mankind and one can generally tell the Africans from the African-Americans simply by how much blacker the Africans are. This doesn't prove rape, only the commonplace nature of sexual intercourse between massah and his slaves. Yep... quite easy to determine "about how much" inter-racial fornication is going on... but no evidence as to what was given in exchange ... love, trust, money, companionship, lack of fear.. Further insight is gained by considering the relationship between supervisor and worker in the sweatshops of Southeast Asia which are mostly staffed by young women/girls You don't learn a thing from that... It would be like saying, "I know what goes on in the offices of Barnes and Noble, because I have seen movies of Nazi concentration camps." You'd have to know something of the restrictions observed by the influence of the society, the church, the family, the community... There are lots of "influences" that have an impact on how people behave. As a management consultant I have clients who are jerks, and I wouldn't advise anyone to work for them... others are saps, and let their employees take undue advantage of them... Your example is too broad to be useful... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Iraq inspectors seem guilty of spying
-Caveat Lector- Hilary Thomas wrote: -Caveat Lector- Alamaine, I couldn't remember if it were horizontal drilling or tapping into the pipeline. In either case, Saddam did make the effort to go through proper channels. We can only second guess why Bush brushed him off, why he went to the US (perhaps knowing he wouldn't get assistance??? or it may have been a genuine request for help). I can't recall if he approached the UN or not. How about the idea that it was nothing more than the same "trick" that was used to encourage Hitler to take more territory, or that South Korea was not "in our sphere of influence," only to use their aggression as an excuse to get into another war??? Why do such a thing, you ask? Well, could be that the NWO folks want to establish "credible" precidents for sending NATO (the only official military force for the NWO at this time) forces to "teach someone a lesson." As I recall, our Secretary of State met with Saddam when he asked for help in a squabble with Kuwait (which was an artificial state previously carved out of Iraq), and told Saddam, "You go ahead and take care of it... We won't interfere." Seems Saddam wasn't politically astute enough to know that when the USA politicians tell you something, you should assume the opposite is true. Thus, he took action, and there was a "ready made excuse" to set a precedent... Remember Bush saying the war was to "Strengthen the New World Order" or that "out of this, a New World Order will emerge"??? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- But slavery was an evil institution. That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are welcome to it, and you are certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my criteria on "stronger stuff" than personal opinion. By the way, at one time I would have agreed with you. I was "compelled" to study slavery in order to support my position that it was evil, but my study resulted in forcing me to reject my initial beliefs concerning it. As you may have gathered, I am VERY libertarian in my political philosophy. As a libertarian, I would have to reject slavery, either an an owner or a slave. But as a Christian, I cannot condemn it. In his long post there is much which I am in total agreement with. However, the above is not my view. I believe that Hawk would be correct if he were only to use the old testiment as reference. However, I believe that Jesus set a higher standard when he said that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. I don't believe the ownership of slaves is compatable with that admonishment. You are, of course, welcome to draw any conclusions you wish from a text that says nothing whatsoever about the institution of slavery. There are a number of New Testament passages that speak DIRECTLY to the issue, and not a single one of them even remotely criticizes the institution of slavery... In fact, the opposite is true. Slaves are told to "be good slaves, industrious, honest" etc. Masters are told to supervise/manage their slaves without resorting to intimidation and brutality. Oenesimus, a run-away slave, was told to return to to his master, and Paul told the master, Philemon, that he would personally recompense him for whatever Oenesimus might have stolen or cost him in lost productivity. If slavery were immoral, and the biblical writers spoke of the institution many times, they were strangely remiss for not criticizing Christian slave-holders. (Though I can understand the problem of those who (like Jefferson) inherited slaves and did not understand what to do about the situation). I don't, however, believe that Jesus would have called upon his disciples to take up the sword against their owners. You may speculate all you wish about what Jesus might have said. But an honest study of the issue of slavery will not lead to the conclusion that it is immoral. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? Or sleep with? ;-) That one's cute, too.. I married a poor girl... She's rich now, though. Avoids answering the question of who you stepped on or slept with to become so successful in business to become rich white trash... My, my... You are so bereft of manners... I will answer your stupid question directly... I "stepped on" no one, and I have not "slept with" anyone other than my wife... It is amazing to me that people such as you cannot comprehend success without chicanery... I suppose that it reflects your normal behavior. One good thing about being poor...you don't lose sleep at night worrying someone will take your 'stuff'... ;-) OH? Poor people like to have their "stuff" stolen??? No, we don't have 'stuff' to BE stolen! ;-) Bullshit. (or at least, not anything anyone else would waste their time on)... You also notice Squawk is so very willing to steal someone ELSE'S resources, while worrying about preserving his own toys... That is simply a lie... I have never stolen anyone ELSE'S resources... But you argue that it is your RIGHT to take as much oil from the ground to feed your gas-guzzler... No... As a matter of fact, I haven't taken ANY oil from the ground.. Some people who owned oil in the ground extracted it and sold it to some people who made gasoline with it, and they sold it to me... Simple things are very confusing to you, aren't they? Your hypocrisy is amazing. as though you don't enjoy the benefits of plentiful and relatively inexpensive petroleum products... Just WHERE do you think that oil resides? Unless you're Jethro with your own 'bubbling crude', that oil you want to extract to your heart's content belongs to other people... I think it "resides" in the ground... As a matter of fact some of it belongs to me. And I'd like to sell more of it... In the meanwhile, I haven't taken any oil from anyone who didn't have desire to sell it... It is only people such as you who think they have the right to take by force what other people own. You argue that all the minerals in the Earth should be exploited for your own use -- do you live on top of a mine? Nope... wish I did, though. If not, then you are arguing for taking the resources which belong to others, and wasting them for your own frivolous needs... That's bullshit, too. I don't "take resources" from anyone... That's what facsists and socialists (such as you) do. I purchase what I use from willing sellers What I do with them after that is none of your business... Furthermore, you haven't a clue as to whether I use them for necessities or frivolous purposes. For someone so focused on what a people PRODUCE, I wonder just what SQUAWK produces...other than a lot of hot air... I make a better-than-average living providing information... Then you admit that you in fact do NOT 'produce' a thing... Mostly I help my clients keep a larger portion of what they produce. Their greatest threat to success is folks like you who feel that they have a right to what my clients own. I am a consultant. A paid producer of hot air... Whatever The people who pay me do so willingly, so I suppose they think the "hot air" is worth something. Lots of people pay quite handsomly to hear what I think... You are a fortunate recipient of my wisdom at no charge... See how generous I am? As are you...I also am a consultant, billed out at $125+ an hour... but unlike you, I also produce something tangible in addition to my hot air, as my 'information' is followed up with a service... Good for you... I charge a bit more than you do... I wonder if your psychic abilities (or lack thereof) came through training or were they inherited? What makes you think I don't provide on-going services? June... You make yourself look foolish with these kinds of accusations and bitter denunciations... It boils down to this: You think that the only way people obtain wealth is by chicanery or extortion... I presume that is your normal way of doing business, or you would not think that way. I risk making the same mistake that you have made by surmising that your pay comes primarily from some government source rather than honest market-place give and take. You, and those who think (I use the word loosely) like you do seem to feel that its OK for you and your pals to take whatever I own (my "stuff") and use it for your own purposes. I wonder then, if you think it would be "just peachy" if me and some of my pals showed up at your place, and by threat of violence took whatever we wanted that you have. If you are truely "democratic" all that would be necessary is that we "outnumber" you. Hawk D
Re: [CTRL] Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: This may have come as a shock to you, but there were many people around who knew what the imperialist government was doing. And why. It seems that you haven't yet learned why the government does what it does and why it must do it all secretly. I'll give you a hint, it's not because they are democratically controlled by us. Thank God for that. How many innocent people did you kill even knowing the false pretenses you were fighting under? That would be hard to say... Why should you not be considered a war criminal? This is not a rhetorical question. You are free to consider me whatever suits your fancy... Why am I not surprised that you justify slavery on the basis of this superstitious nonsense? Your slaver ancestors used it for the same purpose. I am not surprised that you feel that way... While my "slaver ancestors" did indeed believe they were justified, they are all dead. Now they have been "replaced" by people who STILL advocate slavery... namely folks such as you... You seem to think it is perfectly fine for me to be forced to work for the benefit of others. I doubt you are smart enough to see the connection however. Gee that's too bad. War is heck. I'll bet the slaves just hated to leave your wonderful family. As a matter of fact, most of them didn't leave... They chose to stay with my wonderful family... But slavery was an evil institution. I don't know dude...you sound like one confused puppy to me. Rational thought is something you are not familiar with... There's no end to the evils perpetrated by people like you in the name of religion. It's in the NT that Paul tells slaves to obey their masters. The OT is much more libertarian. Biblical Israel was not a slave based economy as was Greece and Rome and their cultural offshoots Christian Europe and Christian America. snip You obviously haven't had much exposure to biblical teaching... Since you don't know what you're talking about, there isn't much point in discussing it with you. Slavery was not eliminated by the war... it merely changed its appearance. Do you mean to wage slavery? No, I mean being forced to give govm't fools over half of what I earn. Whether you wish to or not is irrelevant. You can't because we ( the society in which you live ) won't let you own slaves. You'll just have to live with it and whine about it. Poor guy. I don't recall whining about it... As a matter of fact, if you could read and understand simple English, you would have noted that I said that I do not wish to own a slave. Well Hawk, you've convinced me. When I grow up I want to be just like you. It would be a considerable improvement... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Trick mirrors
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: Should we be talking down to you? Impossible from your position... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Stuff
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote:-- Translated: the cops in my area come running for SOME reason, therefore everyone has some political voice. How far from reason can you get? -- I never said that everyone, or even "anyone" had a "political voice." Speaking of being far from reason! Pay attention to the words, son. - An avoidance of the issue in favor of McCarthyism - an attempt at character assassination, the default of a faulty metaprogram. - Just trying to figure out how someone could get so stupid Surely you didn't think up this stuff all by yourself.. -- No one said that, did they? Shall we ignore our own problems in favor of addressing the problems of others? -- Yes, please do... Your attempts at a solution are pathetic... Leave well enough alone if that's the best you can do. --- There seems to be very little for which you ARE responsible. -- That's precisely right... Now you're showing some embryonic form of intelligence. I am responsible for me... That's enough. How about freedom? Has that ceased to be a choice? -- If you value your freedom at any happenstance expense of others, don't be surprised when they come a knockin'. -- I rather look forward to it. Like many right-wingers, you love a fight more than is good for you, or us. --- I am not a "right-winger." And I'm not the one advocating a fight... That's your thing. Don't leave anyone out of your "victim" diatribe. --- If there are no victims, then there are no perpetrators, right? So why be concerned with conspiracies at all? -- There are potential perps... Keeps life interesting. --- The chips WILL fall where they will and your lack of caring will work its way into the equation when someone gives you some of the same medicine. When the chips fall, who will consider your immense kindness? --- I hope no one does... I'm not looking for praise. -- You have just reinforced the image of your ilk as being arrogant and conescending. I would have a tough time TRYING to give myself this bad an image. You've done a decent job without trying... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Yeah, yeah
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: And, I strongly suspect, a 'little too close' relationship between first cousins, perhaps even brother and sister, in the ancestral gene pool... ;-) Brilliant argument... Your intelligence shines in that one. Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? Or sleep with? ;-) That one's cute, too.. I married a poor girl... She's rich now, though. Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff." One good thing about being poor...you don't lose sleep at night worrying someone will take your 'stuff'... ;-) OH? Poor people like to have their "stuff" stolen??? Maybe that's why they're poor.. Interesting... hadn't thought of that. You also notice Squawk is so very willing to steal someone ELSE'S resources, while worrying about preserving his own toys... That is simply a lie... I have never stolen anyone ELSE'S resources... It's mine that have been stolen.. are, to be more accurate, "Extorted." For someone so focused on what a people PRODUCE, I wonder just what SQUAWK produces...other than a lot of hot air... I make a better-than-average living providing information... I am a consultant. Lots of people pay quite handsomly to hear what I think... You are a fortunate recipient of my wisdom at no charge... See how generous I am? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they were living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to result in creation of wealth and prosperity. The Native Americans should have been ashamed of themselves not to realize the commercial value of property. Not necessarily... If they chose to live a bare subsistence lifestyle, why should I care, or why they care what I care? Of coure they were doing beautifully before the colonists started killing them, True... unless you consider them killing each other off, capturing each other for slaves, and looting each other's meager belongings as something less than desireable. but they just should have understood that grabbing the most of everything is the mark of true civilization. Maybe they were smarter than that, but dumb enough not to understand that producing wealth is preferable to plundering and scavaging. Maybe they already understood the words I saw on an announcement board outside a local church. "When we die, we leave what we have and take what we are." Yep... They were a bunch of sweethearts all right. Kind and gentle... noble savages all. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: Now you're changing your tune...your initial objection was that all Indians just got by with foraging and gathering, I made the mistake of generalizing.. Hell, I'm sure SOME Indian, somewhere, was probably a real estate agent. and didn't farm...when that fallacy was pointed out, you now decide that 'manufacturing' is to be the new standard... Look.. My point was not to criticize the Indians... The point was that they were at best poor entrepreneurs nor producers of excess "whatever they produced" in order to amass any capital. I should have prefaced my remarks with "In general," or "To a large extent," etc etc... It was my mistake. The Inca, Mayans, and Toltecs seem to have been able to 'manufacture' some pretty sophisticated objects... I don't think the "founding fathers" of the USA had much contact with them, and did not intend that they be included in the discussion. Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? Again, it's a MATTER OF RECORD. Whatever If you want to believe that our system of government was derived from the Iroquois, go ahead... It probably is a harmless enough thing to believe... about the same as the "fact" that Africans invented the airplane and telegraph. I never said any such thing...I said the INDIANS were farmers and fishers... No... You were speaking of the Europeans... the Europeans who first came here in the 1600s were for the most part pretty middleclass, more merchants than farmers... Middleclass has nothing to do with farming ability.. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Settlers
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: Just goes to show that white trash is still white trash, irregardless of their tax bracket... I suppose so... your remarks "go to show" that people who are unable to discuss things intelligently resort to name-calling... And for your information, your opinion of me is of no importance... I don't care what you think of me, not in the very least... If there was any indication that your beliefs were worthy of consideration, your opinion would be examined... but as it is... 'Semi-poverty' according to whose standard? Mine. Even the agrarian Indians for the most part enjoyed a much higher standard of living than most Europeans By who's standard? and the Inca, Maya, and Toltecs obviously enjoyed substantial wealth... They were not part of the discussion... They lived in Central America, I believe. Well, if the eastern mound-builders don't fit your arbitrary bill, what about the cities and the intricate canal networks the Maya and Inca created... I think its pretty snazzy My hat's off to them. They were better engineers that the ones we were talking about... who's engineering skills seemed limited to making dirt piles. what about the extensive irrigation system of the HoHoKums in Arizona? I am unaware of the HoHoKums, but if they built canals and irrigation systems, I give them credit for doing it Good for them. Actually, they probably wouldn't have...there had been nothing like it before, and the Iroquois system was the only thing they had to go by... If you say so... I'm not in the mood to speculate with you. However, I will point out that those fellows (the FF's) were capable of "Conceptual Thought," and I find it difficult to believe that they were so limited in "Perceptual Thought" that a "confederation" was inconceivable until they saw one. The initial immigrants in the 1600s either came here to plunder, with plans to return to England in a few years with a vast bank account...or they were religious fanatics looking to build their own version/vision of 'heaven on earth' in a new land... You learned that in school... right? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Howard: Baseless accusations
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: Howard: Yes, I believe, based on what I have read and have heard from Libertarian pundits, that Libertarians subscribe to the same basic philosophies as Republicans with respect to government. You need to go back to the books, my ill-read friend. The only possible exception, again, according to my experience and research, is that Libertarians are more closely aligned with anarchy than fascism. You're closer to the truth in this statement. Yes, I have labored through Mein Kamph, and I also realize that there is only an ideological difference at best between Hitler's "form of government" and that proposed, in-practice, by Republicans and Libertarians. This is especially true in regard to the need for political scapegoats (e.g., the homeless or welfare recipients) and scapegoating (e.g., stereotyping). Hardly... Libertarians have no need for scapegoats... It just isn't our responsibility that some people don't have homes and jobs. And apparently it isn't yours, either... Since your form of compassion is to fund your feelings toward "the poor" with someone else's money. As for threats, I openly invite you to cite just one example of a case where I directly threatened anybody. I don't think you have the cajunas to directly threaten anyone...not that I advise it. Were anybody to be guilty of any type of implied threat, it would be exemplified by Hawk's invitation for me, personally, to engage him in a battle over the protection of his almighty "stuff." Not so, fella... I didn't invite anyone to engage me in battle over my stuff... My preference is for you to leave my stuff alone.. and me too. I do mention again, that individuals trying to take my "stuff" will have a lot poorer chance of success without the govm't backing them up. There is not threat to you from me, as long as you don't initiate any violence toward me. Keep your greedy paws off my "stuff" and you don't worry about me threatening you. A quick review of the facts and threads in this regard would be advisable before you accuse anyone of inciting terrorism! Kinda back-peddling there ain't you? You have made several "veiled threats" about what "the poor" are going to do to us when they "come for our stuff." Nonetheless, I am aware of the logical and historically supported result of life in a society where there is such callous disregard for those of either end of an economic continuum. The result has heretofore been--and will be again--revolution. This is not a threat, sir, it is a fact. And my opinion of that is, Sir, "Let the games begin!" Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
others became employees, and some became entrepreneurs. The federal government just wanted the problem to go away White Americans were more interested in getting on with their own lives...putting an end to the enmity against the former rebels... If that is so, "Reconstruction" was a pitiful way to accomplish their goal. One of the prime results of Reconstruction was a deeper animosity between the races than had been evident before or during the war. What to do with the recently freed slaves was not particularly high on the political agenda Well, you might also consider that the White Confederate was "not particularly high" on the political agenda" either... They could not even vote, unlike the recently freed Negro, who could and did. Some of us argue that the government should play a positive role in helping people...others argue that ANY kind of aid is unconstitutional, etc... And much of our list discussions on these topics are carried into abstract terms... First of all, the Govm't CANNOT give anything to anyone that it didn't TAKE FORCIBLY from someone else. The BEST thing the govm't can do to "help people" is to stay out of the way, provide protection against foreign invasion, and run a system of courts that treats everyone the same. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: --- So what of the fact that they avoided excess? Are you championing waste? If what I am "wasting" belongs to me, I champion my right to do so. What you do with your stuff, or what the Indians did with theirs is none of my concern. Excess is useful if you wish to have leverage AGAINST someone, else it is given away. Again, you do whatever you wish with your stuff... Give it away, let it deteriorate, sell it, or shove it... I couldn't care less. What has this to do with whether or not they were capable of such? Nothing... I responded to it in reference to "What the Europeans found in terms of Indians and their life-style in North America..." I might have been as sarcastic as you (which is an indication of poor character) by asking what the Incas had to do with the original discussion. You sound like Clinton's press secretary - changing subjects in hopes of preying on the slow minded. There are few of those here. Apparently you are too slow-minded to make a connection with an obvious illustration... I'll try to make things easier for you to understand in the future. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: -Caveat Lector- Wealth is not produced but is harnessed from what belongs to everyone. Not so... Wealth is produced by the manipulation of things that are (usually) unsuable in their raw condition, and making something that is beneficial or desirable of it. Of course wealth can be earned by providing services in which nothing is "manufactured" -- such as entertainment, poetry, etc. as long as someone is willing to purchase it from you. "Harnessing" is a strange concept... I suppose (for instance) automobiles are running around loose in nature, belonging to everyone in general and no one in particular, so someone has to corral them up and "harness" them? Strange concepts you have... Of course, if you have the appropriate firepower, you can claim it is yours and even force people to agree. That's the nature of communism, socialism, facsism and other forms of coerced altruism... I believe it is your preferrence. There are generally only three methods of obtaining wealth: (1)Produce it -- choice, (2)Plunder it -- your choice, or (3) Patronage -- somebody gives it to you... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: Granted, such forced charity serves few, in the long run. However, don't you think the government is 'up to' things that require addressing more than forced equity? There is no such thing as "forced charity." It is either charity, or its forced... Socialism is to altruism, what slavery is to servanthood. One has the right to the opportunity. Such opportunities are killed when a government works in collusion to create certain negative images of a people or subculture. Such opportunities are killed when the government uses our tax dollars to import cocaine, sell it to street gangs to fund a political and military agenda that, again, serves THEM(AND provides yet another opportunity to propagate the image of certain peoples as negative). Hey, I'm glad you identified the govm't as the primary destroyer of opportunities. Good going... There is a powerful craving in most of us to see ourselves as instruments in the hands of others and thus free ourselves from the responsibility for acts which are prompted by our own questionable inclinations and impulses. It may be a powerful craving in you... not me... If you are correct, and you may be, that would explain why there are more "have nots" than there are "haves." Both the strong and the weak grasp at this alibi. The latter hide their malevolence under the virtue of obedience: they acted dishonorably because they had to obey orders. The strong, too, claim absolution by proclaiming themselves the chosen instrument of a higher power -- God, history, fate, nation or humanity. -- Eric Hoffer Is this Eric Hoffer the Marxist Eric Hoffer? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
The distribution of your message dated Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:29:21 -0600 with subject "Re: Stampeding Bison" has been rejected because you have exceeded the daily per-user message limit for the CTRL list. Other than the list owner, no one is allowed to post more than 7 messages per day. Please resend your message at a later time if you still want it to be posted to the list. Rejected message (60 lines) -- Received: from mail2.ballistic.com (mail2.ballistic.com [208.211.146.6]) by listserv.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20170 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ballistic.com (tpm2-162.ballistic.com [208.211.146.162]) by mail2.ballistic.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05325 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:29:34 -0600 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:29:21 -0600 From: Hawk [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: But slavery was an evil institution. That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are welcome to it, and you are certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my criteria on "stronger stuff" than personal opinion. By the way, at one time I would have agreed with you. I was "compelled" to study slavery in order to support my position that it was evil, but my study resulted in forcing me to reject my initial beliefs concerning it. As you may have gathered, I am VERY libertarian in my political philosophy. As a libertarian, I would have to reject slavery, either an an owner or a slave. But as a Christian, I cannot condemn it. In his long post there is much which I am in total agreement with. However, the above is not my view. I believe that Hawk would be correct if he were only to use the old testiment as reference. However, I believe that Jesus set a higher standard when he said that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. I don't believe the ownership of slaves is compatable with that admonishment. You are, of course, welcome to draw any conclusions you wish from a text that says nothing whatsoever about the institution of slavery. There are a number of New Testament passages that speak DIRECTLY to the issue, and not a single one of them even remotely criticizes the institution of slavery... In fact, the opposite is true. Slaves are told to "be good slaves, industrious, honest" etc. Masters are told to supervise/manage their slaves without resorting to intimidation and brutality. Oenesimus, a run-away slave, was told to return to to his master, and Paul told the master, Philemon, that he would personally recompense him for whatever Oenesimus might have stolen or cost him in lost productivity. If slavery were immoral, and the biblical writers spoke of the institution many times, they were strangely remiss for not criticizing Christian slave-holders. (Though I can understand the problem of those who (like Jefferson) inherited slaves and did not understand what to do about the situation). I don't, however, believe that Jesus would have called upon his disciples to take up the sword against their owners. You may speculate all you wish about what Jesus might have said. But an honest study of the issue of slavery will not lead to the conclusion that it is immoral. Hawk
[CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
The distribution of your message dated Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:54:59 -0600 with subject "Re: Yeah, yeah" has been rejected because you have exceeded the daily per-user message limit for the CTRL list. Other than the list owner, no one is allowed to post more than 7 messages per day. Please resend your message at a later time if you still want it to be posted to the list. Rejected message (129 lines) - Received: from mail2.ballistic.com (mail2.ballistic.com [208.211.146.6]) by listserv.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25052 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ballistic.com (tpm2-162.ballistic.com [208.211.146.162]) by mail2.ballistic.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07223 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:55:13 -0600 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:54:59 -0600 From: Hawk [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Yeah, yeah References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YnrChyldzWyld wrote: Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? Or sleep with? ;-) That one's cute, too.. I married a poor girl... She's rich now, though. Avoids answering the question of who you stepped on or slept with to become so successful in business to become rich white trash... My, my... You are so bereft of manners... I will answer your stupid question directly... I "stepped on" no one, and I have not "slept with" anyone other than my wife... It is amazing to me that people such as you cannot comprehend success without chicanery... I suppose that it reflects your normal behavior. One good thing about being poor...you don't lose sleep at night worrying someone will take your 'stuff'... ;-) OH? Poor people like to have their "stuff" stolen??? No, we don't have 'stuff' to BE stolen! ;-) Bullshit. (or at least, not anything anyone else would waste their time on)... You also notice Squawk is so very willing to steal someone ELSE'S resources, while worrying about preserving his own toys... That is simply a lie... I have never stolen anyone ELSE'S resources... But you argue that it is your RIGHT to take as much oil from the ground to feed your gas-guzzler... No... As a matter of fact, I haven't taken ANY oil from the ground.. Some people who owned oil in the ground extracted it and sold it to some people who made gasoline with it, and they sold it to me... Simple things are very confusing to you, aren't they? Your hypocrisy is amazing. as though you don't enjoy the benefits of plentiful and relatively inexpensive petroleum products... Just WHERE do you think that oil resides? Unless you're Jethro with your own 'bubbling crude', that oil you want to extract to your heart's content belongs to other people... I think it "resides" in the ground... As a matter of fact some of it belongs to me. And I'd like to sell more of it... In the meanwhile, I haven't taken any oil from anyone who didn't have desire to sell it... It is only people such as you who think they have the right to take by force what other people own. You argue that all the minerals in the Earth should be exploited for your own use -- do you live on top of a mine? Nope... wish I did, though. If not, then you are arguing for taking the resources which belong to others, and wasting them for your own frivolous needs... That's bullshit, too. I don't "take resources" from anyone... That's what facsists and socialists (such as you) do. I purchase what I use from willing sellers What I do with them after that is none of your business... Furthermore, you haven't a clue as to whether I use them for necessities or frivolous purposes. For someone so focused on what a people PRODUCE, I wonder just what SQUAWK produces...other than a lot of hot air... I make a better-than-average living providing information... Then you admit that you in fact do NOT 'produce' a thing... Mostly I help my clients keep a larger portion of what they produce. Their greatest threat to success is folks like you who feel that they have a right to what my clients own. I am a consultant. A paid producer of hot air... Whatever The people who pay me do so willingly, so I suppose they think the "hot air" is worth something. Lots of people pay quite handsomly to hear what I think... You are a fortunate recipient of my wisdom at no charge... See how generous I am? As are you...I also am a consultant, billed out at $125+ an hour... but unlike you, I also produce something tangible in addition to my hot air, as my 'information' is followed up with a service... Good for you...
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: -Caveat Lector- All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) Edward Come ahead... Lead the way... Happy Trails... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: -Caveat Lector- All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) Edward Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the race, compassionless ones. Oh! how I wish you would be the leader of the pack! Come on, compassionate one. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Re: "sending kids off to war." Your caustic comment notwithstanding, you nor I wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms we do have, if it wasn't for the sacrifice of others... Perhaps, they were "stupid" to fight for this country. I don't think so. They, and I was one of "them", did not do anything that promoted freedom in this country. We killed folks IN THEIR COUNTRY. I've been in five wars (OK, some were small wars, but it was wholesale killing non-the-less) in "my country's" uniform. And in NOT A SINGLE CASE was this country's "freedom" threatened. The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were Confederate soldiers. Since then, Amercian soldiers truly have fought gallantly... but they were not fighting for American freedom. WWII was fought "to make the world safe for communism." The outcome -- bottom line -- of that conflict was two-thirds of the world's population falling under communism. Re: "paying bills." People have been paying YOUR bill for a long time. They paid at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Omaha, and a helluva lot of other places.. That's my point. I didn't have any bills to pay in Tarawa, Iwo Jima, etc so you OWE something to this country... I don't owe anything to anyone for going half way around the world to kill people who were not a threat to me. Why is that so difficult a concept to understand? A lot of Americans have paid the price so that you can have your miserable little life. My "miserable little life?" Pardner, I myself have "paid the price" It is absurd for anyone to say that Americans sent to kill people in their own country "paid the price" so I could have ANY kind of life. You should be proud to be a citizen...greatful to have the money to pay. So the next time some mugger pokes a gun in my face he should tell me, "You should be proud to be an American, and grateful that you have money for me to take." After all, he's taking my money so he can maintain his lifestyle of robbing and killing other people... Or maybe it's time for you to move to the Cayman Islands or some taxhaven with others of your ilk. My ilk? Maybe its time for "others of my ilk" to sack up people "of your ilk" and ship THEM somewhere so we can live our lives without deadbeats robbing us of the fruit of our labor. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- The preponderance of 'Indian mounds' throughout the eastern U.S. would tend to belie your contention that the Native Americans were incapable of producing anything... I never contended such a thing Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish? Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught them? The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional 'gathering'...just like the European settlers... But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than handcrafts. These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum, and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people... Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? Give me a break! Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited by starving people... The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved, and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food, what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive... I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Squawk: Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk: Oh! how I wish you would be the leader of the pack! Come on, compassionate one. Be still, Hawk. Wouldn't want you to blow a gasket. Better have lots of bullets, pal. There are more of "them" than you. That's ok... let it begin... Hawk... "the calm one" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William... I am having to post this directly to you because I quickly use up my alloted 7 posts per day. William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk, Thank you for serving our country. As a veteran, you put your life on the line for the country and that is to be respected. That's why I don't quite understand your political position. The fact that I "put my life on the line" is precisely what started me on the road to my political position. I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, and I can spot the various techniques because they are still in use today. In short, I distrust our govm't precisely because I know it to be a lying and manipulative government that has been and still is involved in an active effort to deny or reduce the freedom of everyone here and abroad. So, you see, neither I nor anyone else "in the service of this country" is responsible for the freedom that I do enjoy, and cerainly not for the freedom of people in other countries. I'm descended from people who owned slaves. If you want to look in the historical records of the state of North Carolina, you will find that twenty-two members of my family fought FOR the Confederacy. They were not "bad" people...they thought they were fighting for their friends and neighbors...defending their "southern way of life," a way of life that involved the enslavement of human beings... I agree with you about what they were fighting for. My grandfather, born in 1886, would tell me stories about how much our family loved their slaves..how well they treated them, etc. My grandfather wasn't deliberately lying... sure, my family loved the slaves. They were valuable property. That is not the only reason the loved their slaves. Surely you don't deny that close personal bonds were often deverloped between slaves and the family that owned them... It is well documented. And they treated them humanely (if one can argue that owning a human being is a humane idea). I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an inhumane act. Anyone who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of determining "good" and "evil"), should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the institution of slavery as evil. And if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn HIM for His position on it. It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in many cases, but it is not condemned. It is the abuse of the relationship that is condemned. They didn't separate family members... I still have visions of my grandfather, old H.B., sitting in his chair, puffing on his cigar, telling me about how much the family lived their "." My grandfather was a product of his generation. Who isn't? And,for your information, the family had stories of the damned Yankees who came into North Carolina, seizing the food and valuables of everyone. In order to save their smoked hams, the family placed discolored flour on the cuts of meat, hoping that the Yankees would think them poisoned. I was raised on Civil War stories and states rights arguments. Same here... Some of my ancestors lived in S. Carolina. They were a large and prosperous family, and when the Union army came through, they burned 30 of the Willis plantations to the ground, leaving only one standing, and it had been set fire to. Most white southerners were too poor to own slaves. Slavery was a complex institution--the large operations in the
Re: [CTRL] Nurev: Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: But Nurev, this is entirely too pessimistic. One person's failed society is another's new beginning. A little barbequed pig is a good thing, now and then :-) You know, I didn't think this kind of pathetic musing took place outside of Academia Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Michael: Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: This would be fine, but how would the government "know" whom to protect inasmuch as there is a significant portion of our population with no political voice. You actually believe this stuff you say? I don't have a "political voice," but the cops seem to respond when I've called them. Therefore this governmental attribute you hold so dear becomes a defense mechanism for the elite. Let me ask... Are you a student or graduate of Patrice LaMumba University in Moscow? Hence the present chasm, in this nation, between the have's and the have-not's. And in other nations, there is no such chasm, right? Am I catching on? A) How do the mentally impaired fall under your rubric of "reaping the net result of the choices they make"? How do those families--specifically children-- displaced by economic down-turns fall under the rubric of "net result of choice"? Maybe they fall under the "rubric" of "chance." We all have risks in our lives, and sometimes things happen to us that we didn't choose... The application is the same, however... Your bad luck is not my responsibility. B) It is fair by nature of the fact that the aforementioned gripers reap a disproportionately large benefit from life in this society. Oh? And I suppose wise men (and women, just to be politically correct) will have meetings and decide what a "proportional benefit" would be? As a matter of fact, I think they already do... something called a graduated income tax. "Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined. It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization), such doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist bent. Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative democracy or otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your decision. How about freedom? Has that ceased to be a choice? In this/my case, you are partially correct. I was to blame for not having adequately prepared myself financially (at nineteen, such concepts were sort of abstract :-)). My employer took it from there by downsizing me during the initial stages of Reagan's "trickle-down" economy. Probl'y the smartest business decision he ever made... Forgive me, Michael (actually this serves as partial re-inforcement of my point about the compassionlessness and naivete'of the right), but, again, at nineteen, I was oblivious of the need to prepare for the malevolent economics of an equally malevolent president. and don't forget your malevolent boss... and his malevolent board of directors.. and perhaps the malevolent bankers who advised him to keep his expenses less than his income... Don't leave anyone out of your "victim" diatribe. This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes rediculous. What if we don't "blame anybody," and just let the chips fall where they may? My bad luck doesn't constitute a claim on your bank account. I am fearful of being run over by a system in which I have no representation. I guess it's a matter of choosing who and by what means should I be run over. That's the only smart thing you've said Good Boy! Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: You don't seem to understand much about human nature. Slavery was not just an economic issue. It was a way of life and cheap self esteem. It was the dark pleasure of having absolute power over others. Slavery had deeply corrupted the South. To think that the results of slavery were typically benign or even neutral is fantasy. It is also naive to think that the slave masters would ever have voluntarily given up their corrupt power. Don't just focus on the shallow economics oriented histories, consider and read about the social/psychological realities. As one who has devoted the major portion of his life studying "human nature" and "morals" and "political/social" philosophies.. I have to say this... The above falls properly into the realm of "psycho-babble." Those who fall for it could blame it on the mis-education system, but if they've been out of school for more than two or three years, they should have learned better. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Squawk's dissertation on ignorance!!
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: Even so, given your provincial attitudes, I'll bet there's a home-on-wheels somewhere in your history. How much is the bet? How cute: an urban assault vehicle, right? Great Caesar's ghost, you're becoming your own stereotype! Yep idolized by millions. Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? No one at all... I provided things for people who were grateful to receive them, and for which the compensated me. Of course, that's a foreign concept to you. Man, please! You wouldn't know a rational argument if it crawled up your rectum and died! That's true... My arguments originate in my brain. You wouldn't be familiar with that. No, but in typical right-wing fashion, you sure as hell implied it! I didn't imply anything of the sort... You infered what you wanted to believe. As for the statement you just made about "semi-poverty," do you have even the slightest clue what life was like for native Americans BEFORE we came over here and stole the land out from under them? My God, talk about ignorance!! I have a little bit of a clue, although it is not something I have devoted a lot of time to. I do know this... The Indians didn't own the land, and most of them didn't even have the concept of "ownership" regarding real estate. Its difficult to steal something from someone who doesn't own it. I will admit that the fellows got a raw deal from the govm't... but who doesn't? Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff." Keep crapping on people you don't know, much less understand, and your fears may well be warranted. I've never crapped on anyone... whether I knew them or not. And although I do resent having my resources extorted from me, I am not all that worried about it. Some people give money to the Mafia as a condition of doing business... others, such as I, give money to the govm't... Neither the govm't nor the Mafia deserve it, and both use the threat of violence to take it... but I figure is more-or-less a condition of doing business. As for the silly threats about what the "pore folks is gonna do to me," I am not in the least intimidated. There's an old military adage: "If I'm in range, THEY are in range." Kind of hard to say: our "founding fathers" were so much into taking what wasn't theirs that such a noble concept was not likely to come to fruition in the minds of bully thieves all by itself. So they had to be taught by the savages they were stealing from? OK... I got it. Hardly quaint, unless you consider the slaughter of native Americans and the enslavement of a race of people as being quaint. I hadn't thought to call the native Americans "resources," although many of them considered each other as "resources," and did a commendable job of killing and enslaving each other. Some of the New Englanders tried to make slaves out of some of the Indians, but the Indians kept running off, and proved to be sullen servants... So then the New Englanders decided that slavery was bad... UNTIL, they found that they could exchange rum for Negroes in Africa, and slavery suddenly became "not so bad." But then, you've probably heard that story. Perhaps we should have "borrowed" the Indian philosophy of frugal use of resourses as well. Why is that? If it is depleted, find a substitute. I am not concerned about "frugal use of resources." If I own resources, and can sell them, I want to sell to anyone who'll buy them... Its called "doing business." Then, maybe, we could have had both a clean environment AND a materialistic technology at the same time. I'm in favor of a clean environment... Excessive development of resources usually isn't the root cause of an unclean environment. Sometimes, but not always. And besides, if you don't own the resources, what business is it of yours whether or not the owner squanders them? Oh, I wish I had read this jewel first. You would have been a far more enjoyable target of humiliation. Keep thinking that way, Squawk, and for the pursuit of a "better life, you'll be living in your own filth! Funny... your theory hasn't seemed to be right yet. Seems as though its the people who expect others to pay their way that usually reside in filth. My neighborhood's pretty clean... We have Mexicans who do the work... (Thought you'd like that.) Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, an
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men andhelpless victi
-Caveat Lector- E Mael wrote: but i think that j. would agree that his one life is not as valuable as millions of lives lost to capitalism, greed and self-interest. the gop is right up there. for those of you restless spirits who would disagree; this is not a poll of your opinion of my opinion, so keep yours to yourselves, as this is only in response to the question. Thank you, but I choose to express my opinion, regardless of your approval or disapproval. To your list that includes "capitalism," you might also add, "communism, socialism, facism, witchcraft, imperialism, sickness, disease, famine, and pestilence." Compared to any of those, "capitalism" pales in significance. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: They are run over with elephants... elephants are thriving and multiplying. Bullshit. The Indian elephant's in trouble due to loss of it's natural habitat... Maybe I should have said "Domesticated Indian elephants." You're back to talking about "wild" elephants that "belong to the people." There is no danger of their becoming extinct. Again, bullshit. An elephant is extremely expensive, to buy, to train (takes years), and to house and feed adequately...therefore most areas of the east where the elephant was once used have replaced the elephant with gasoline-driven vehicles to do the same work, as the gas vehicles are ultimately cheaper... Proves my point As long as there was a "use" for elephants, and people were allowed to own them for their personal use, there was no danger of them becoming extinct. As for the rest of the world, I must say that not having ever seen a "do-do bird" doesn't seem to have had a detrimental effect on me... And since I can no longer buy elephant-hide boots, and never had a desire to own any ivory, the extinction of elephants would not effect me much either. I don't think they were "put here" for entertainment purposes (i.e. vacation trips to Africa, or even to the zoo, to "see the elephants.") Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
would only point out that we might consider some healthier, "kinder and gentler" (borrowing a phrase) ways of taking care of our protein needs. Just a thought. But of course we could follow PJ O'Rourke's advice and eat the rich. You eat whatever you wish... I don't care what you eat... or who, for that matter. Just don't expect me to pay your bills. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I'm all for your right to own an elephant, Hawk. Go for it. However, I think your argument that private owners make better caretakers because they are interested in protecting their investment might be a little weak. I don't think its weak at all... Most people don't take care of "other peoples' stuff" as well as they care for their own... I'll bet you use more generous portions of toilet paper in a motel than you do when you're directly paying for it. Ever heard the old saying, "I'll beat you like a government mule"??? The basis for that little phrase is that people just don't take care of government stuff as well as they do their own. There are a zillion examples to support it. It resembles the arguments used by white slaveowners during the Abolitionist debates... "We love our slaves...after all, they're investments.. We have to take care of them or they lose their value.." It was, I might add, a valid argument. I've done a bit of research in that aspect of economics and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health than was any "peasant class" worker in the world (specifically factory workers in the industrial north and Europe). Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel menan...
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In reality, it was the Southern soldiers who were fighting for the principle of self-government. Is there anything so jaw dropping inexplicable than the few who attempt to make the South out as a victim of the North over the Civil War? It may be as you describe, if you are as ignorant as your statement suggests. There are "shrines" to Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson. Take a tour of the South and your ear will be bent by a guide babbling about how cruel the Yankees were at Vicksburg. Are you suggesting that the citizens and soldiers Vicksburg was not treated rather cruelly? They were at war, and it makes sense that their attackers would blow things up and kill people... Vicksburg isn't, however, a good example to illustrate cruelty. There are far better ones. Listening to them, one would never guess that the South was run by a gang of slavers who do not at all correspond to those portrayed in Gone With the Wind as kindly masters taking loving care of some child like people. You learned this in public school, no doubt. I will challenge you to share your evidence, and will in like manner share mine... Your choice of words indicates that you prefer emotionalism to objective discussion, however.. For instance, the elected government of the South was no more a "gang of slavers" than was the north a "gang of slave traders." Of course, things are complicated and there were many decent Christian Southerners who smuggled slaves, spied on Southern military units, and sabotaged when possible. You mean the traitors? There were right-wing Northerners who spoke and acted for the South. There were slave holding prosperous free blacks in the South. There were a few slave holders who did treat their slaves with some shred of fairness considering the relationship. A few? I believe the documentation of the era supports that such was the norm. Unless, of course, your study of history is mainly pulp such as "Uncle Tom's Cabin." The real point is that every son of the South who involves himself in discussions about the Civil War should get down on his knees and thank God that the Union won the war thereby freeing both slave and "free" Southerner. Absurd... The war was never intended to free the slave, but to enslave the master... and its objective was accomplished. And I, for one, will not "thank God" for having my country over-run by the imperial United States, and making my state a mere administrative extension of an over-bearing and increasingly intolerable Central Govm't... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES]
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman wrote: THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES snip Here is a brief profile of its interests: snip Sounds good to me... Honestly, I'd vote for any candidate who ran on these points as a platform! If that makes me a Socialist or Communist or something, so be it... Well, Sir, you sure did identify yourself properly Each of the proposals is increased "people control" by a central government. You'd have loved Russia under Stalin. but these points make a *hell* of a lot more sense than the crap spewed forth by the Republicrats and Demipublicans. Actually, its the same "crap." And if the NEA has the funds to pay to elect people who will actually do something *for* the citizens of this country instead of *to* us, then more power to them... They cannot do something FOR "us" without first doing something TO "us." Just keep that in mind when you're begging them to do it "to others" in favor of your crowd.. There's always a different crowd begging them to do something "to you" for their benefit Its really pretty simple. It boils down to "There ain't no free lunch." Somebody has to pay for all the "goodies" other people get. Whenever ANYONE gets "something for nothing," someone else got "Nothing for something." Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] nurev: Drudge Report//agreement
-Caveat Lector- Sno0wl wrote: I'm assuming nothing. I just think that stories like this should not be printed unless the facts are in and they ARE true. Let's examine your position here Did Druge say that Slick was the father of the boy? No, not to my knowledge. Did he say that a certain woman claimed that he impregnated her? Yes. Did she make that claim? Yes. Did she support her claim with some kind of evidence? Yes (lie detector test). So, based on these things, the story as printed WAS factual. What the readers infered may or may not be. That remains to be seen. That someone thinks they might be true, does not make such stories newsworthy. There are reports every day where someone claims to have been robbed, or beaten, or tricked, or whatever. The news report should be "So and so CLAIMED that thus and so happened to them." Should we wait until after the trial to report the incident? And in the process, much personal damage is done all round. If one sleeps with the dogs, he should expect to have fleas. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- What's wrong with adopting a national energy policy? I think it's a sane thing to do, especially since the end of the world's oil supply is looming on the millennial horizon. What a crock! The world is awash with oil! Seems like some folks once said the same thing about the demise of the world's whale-oil supply. Central controls isn't the answer... FREEDOM to get rich by taking big chances is the answer, just as it was then. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health than was any "peasant class" worker in the world ( specifically factory workers in the industrial north and Europe). You must be living in a dream world, have you been shooting something into your arm? Nope... and I live in the real world... And from your post, I seem to have a better comprehension of it than the likes of you. If you learned very little in school, it is not too late. Oh, I "learned" a lot in school... Apparently the same thing you learned. Fortunately, I was able to "un-learn" the bullshit that was presented. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have learned anything except the propoganda... It MAY be too late. I suggest you read Bullwhip Days to unburden yourself of the scales that cover your eyes. "Bullwhip" huh? Sounds charming. Since we are suggesting things to each other, while there is one suggestion that I am tempted to make, I will, instead, encourage you to read "Time On the Cross" by PulitzerPrize-winning author William Fogel. You might learn something. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Two Cows (humor)
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. This single line for capitalism which makes it sound like a right smart system while the alternatives are described with multiple sentences and none too flatteringly is not well balanced. Is there a "balance" between Truth and Error? What would it be, "Sorta right?" I don't know what the right add-on should be but as it is, it doesn't account for the ruthless quality of capitalism which leaves 41 million Americans below the poverty line. Capitalism doesn't "leave" anyone below the poverty line. You pays your money and you makes your choice. I've been below the poverty line, and capitalism is what made it possible for me to rise above it... It sure as hell wasn't welfare! It is also silent about the harsher tone of American capitalism that developed after the fall of the Soviet Union. For the sake of the Russian people and the American people, we need Gorbachev back. You're serious? For your information, Gorbechev IS back... He is lounging in palatial splendor in the Presidio -- courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer -- just outside of San Francisco... While your pathetic masses are wallowing in poverty. Great guy, Gorbechev.. ex-honcho of the Gulag. Give me a break! Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] hello (again)
-Caveat Lector- MARK wrote: -Caveat Lector- HAWK, sometimes you are a really good source of information. BUT LEAVE OFF WHAT YOU DONT KNOW I believe I asked a question Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.
" But, my egotistical and lunatic friend... There is another option... You may need to start your own. That's right! You guessed it. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men andhelplessvictims
-Caveat Lector- ArijJan Verboon wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ladies and gentleman I am wtriting a thesis paper on Milton and need an illustration. What is in your opinion the most despicable business transaction that ever took place In my opinion, the most despicable business transaction was the betrayal of Jesus, by Judas, for thirty pieces of silver. and what is in your opinion the most despicable con that ever took place? The most despicable con was that perpertrated by Abraham Lincoln and his cadre'. Consider this: In the Gettysburg Address, "Honest" Abe made the absurd claim that the Union soldiers who died in the Battle of Gettysburg gave their lives to protect the concept of a nation "of the people, by the people, and for the people." In reality, it was the Southern soldiers who were fighting for the principle of self-government. "You can fool ALL of the people SOME of the time... and SOME of the people ALL of the time..." and in this case, that's proven sufficient to pull off the master con. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Thank you for the excellent post. Here in North Dakota, the agricultural community is hurting thanks to a number of stupid government policies... NAFTA and the Republican "Freedom to Farm" bill... The wheat growers are particularly angry at Canadian dumping of wheat on this side of the border... The wheat consumers -- such as I -- are particularly angry at the US Govm't for subsidizing farmers and paying them NOT to grow wheat... However, I hasten point out that I disbelieve you when you say that Canadians are "dumping" wheat in the United States... Why would they do that? Seems like they would sell it to Americans. And if Amercians are buying Canadian wheat rather than American wheat, doesn't it make you wonder why? Could it be that they are selling it at a price MOST Americans would rather pay? Why should I subsidize a North Dakota farmer who's trying to rip me off by charging higher prices than the Canadians? Out in the western half of the state ( posse comitatus-militia country), the beef industry still holds sway The cattle industry plays hell with the environment... There's an interesting idea Who's "environment?" Chances are it is land owned by the United States government, and leased to the cattle rancher. If the govm't would sell all the land it owns, it could wipe out the national debt. Did you know that the U.S. govm't owns MORE LAND west of the Mississippi than there IS LAND east of that mighty river? Why should the govm't own all that land in the first place? As the family farms go under, many of the farm people find themselves targeted by white supremacist groups If they are "going under," what are they being targeted for? Family farms are "going under" primarily because of govm't programs that encourage stupid economics, which has little to do with white supremacist groups, which don't know any economics. Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they were living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to result in creation of wealth and prosperity. The buffalo was the Native American equivalent to a supermarket... every part of the animal was used by the plains people.. Waste not...want not... I think most of them "wanted" most of the time... Because they were non-producers, they suffered the same fate as so-called "over-populated" countries... ie being destitute most of the time. We need to move towards a more humane and environmentally sound policy like getting our protein needs from soy beans and grain... If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. Plus, think about the needless destruction to our water supplies... There's about the same amount of water in the world as there has been for several centuries. All we can do with it is try to move it from place to place, and even then, it isn't usually very cooperative. (and think about the people who have to slaughter the animals for a living, just so you can have your supply of burgers) WoW! What a brilliant statement! In case you haven't learned this, those people aren't slaughtering animals "so I can have hamburgers." They don't give a damn if I EVER have a hamburger... They don't even know me... In my opinion, they are slaughtering animals so THEY can have what THEY want -- most of which costs money, which they earn by slaughtering animals. Try a veggie burger..they're great! No thanks... I need to keep my cholesterol count high... the govm't says it should be low, and they lie about everything. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ===
Re: [CTRL] Poll Conspiracy - Public Opinion Conspiracy - VotingC...
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: I have to admit to being more than a tad suspicious of anything which the Libertarians or conservatives find appealing. The Libertarians sound appealing [snip] much of what was said at their convention in 1996 and it became plain that the party leaders are mostly interested in avoiding taxes. They either believe that it is possible to have a society worth living in without expenses or their top priority is "let George pay for it" where George is you or me. I believe you have Libertarianism mixed up with anarchy and the current system, socialism. Libertarians only want "George" to pay for what "George" uses, without any help from the rest of us. At this point i am not sufficiently familiar with the issue of going back to count the ballot the old fashioned way. Doubtlessly, there are certain efficiencies in automated vote counts for both time and money. Yes, its the same kind of "efficiencies" that regulate what percentage slot machines return to the suckers that play them... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
