CS: Pol-Emigrate!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that all systems manipulate to one degree or another, but does that make this country right? Never said it did. I was just illustrating the truism of the old saying - 'you can't beat the system'. You have inferred a lot from my single statement. --snip-- Steve, and Neil, Good lord, man! You can beat _any_ system, if you are willing to try, hard enough. [...] There are probably a hundred countries on this planet where the average citizen is worse off than anyone in this country will ever be. Life's problems are relative - what you would perceive to be a problem many wouldn't. Lets face it - if the straw that broke your camel's back was you not being able to shoot pistols for a hobby then your problems are not exactly big league are they? [...] Relative? To hell with 'relative'! It is _your_ nation that is being taken to Hell (with a cap. H). Damn it, man, start with the what is closest to home! If you are going to worry about what is important in another land, when the alligators are swarming around your own behind, in your OWN land . . . [...] You are just moaning and winging - we Brits are good at that - makes us feel better. Your missive is basically a rant - illustrating problems but offering no solutions. Anyone can do that. I can choose any topic and point out problems with it. If the problems are that bad do something about them. If the problems are so bad for you in this country do something about that rather than just ranting on about leaving. Maybe the real reason the majority don't want to do anything is because life ain't so bad after all. [...] Well, darn it, maybe you just might offer some advice about what to do to extricate your fellows from their predicament, instead of constantly lambasting them . . . You are a 'Brit', are you not? Look here: either you are part of the problem, or the solution, what's it to be? Unless you like being put upon by Yanks -- like myself . . . grin? [...] Why do you think the UK is a waste of space? In the top 10 wealthiest on the planet. Moderate climate, relatively free, stable, civilized, democratic and full of opportunity. There are probably better but there are a hell of a lot worse. I get the impression you have spent all your life here using the system to make a living - if it is so bad why are you still here talking about going - why haven't you gone already? [...] Beginning to sound like the State of Washington . . . Well, I mean, on the west side of the Cascades we do have a 'moderate' climate (for the the most part), and we have Bill Gates -- which helps put us in the "top 10" wealthiest (counties) of the state, by virtue of proximity (chuckle), and we are 'freer' than Britain (I do believe . . .), we are more certainly stable -- and civilized (depends upon your definition) . . . [...] Is there something better? Up to us isn't it, not them (who the hell are they anyway???) [...] Is there something better??? Lordy!!! Heck yes!!! But, to give YOU credit, Neil, and you DO deserve credit: at least you hammer the keyboard. Lord love ya, some people don't even do that. If only ten more than you had the temerity to write their elected representatives and speak their minds, then maybe -- just maybe, your predicament would be only half as bad. Here's hoping . . . -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Remington 700 faulty safety
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A)nd then why was he releasing the safety catch to do so when with unmodified Remington 700s the bolt can be opened whilst the safety catch is engaged? Regards, Peter Sarony - Armalon Steve, Peter, I must agree with Peter here. There is no other action which a shooter can do -- in the measure of safety: open the bolt. Else wise, remove all ammunition from the arm. I have -- to date -- never had a firearm discharge while opening the bolt. If there is someone out there who has had that unfortunate happenstance, please speak up. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-instant incapacitation
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] re. twitching of the trigger finger. --snip-- After complete decaptitation and removal of any connection between forebrain/midbrain/hindbrain and rest of body, bits still twitch. One of the twitching bits could be on a trigger or a deadman's switch. Robert Steve, Robert, Point of order: It has been my experience that twitching in animals is exclusively in muscle extension -- not contraction, followed by relaxation, then extension. Contraction would seem to be the kind of movement that is associated with intentional movement caused by brain activity which is involved in purposeful movement. I might very well be wrong here, and unless there is a medical expert who can certifiably denounce my suspicions, I shall retain them. There have been those movies where either a villain, or a hero, is shown shooting his last, with a squeeze to the trigger which discharges a shot to nowhere. I have yet to speak to anyone who has witnessed such an event, and I have my suspicions that what is shown is merely an artistic artifice with no real reference to the events as they may have happened. I can believe that perhaps whatever remained of the perceptual mind caused the fingers to exercise a movement that was a residual of cognizant and defined remnants of control, such that the appendage in question was 'thought' to be pointing in the preferred direction, but was if fact still in another. I can relate an event where I was in a semi-conscious state, and was attempting to move an object which I thought was in a certain location, when it was actually elsewhere. And, no, I was not inebriate -- I severely affected by a viral infection (just in case some wise ass wanted to comment otherwise!!). Not withstanding that event related by Mossad Ayoob, concerning a man having been shot in the head and running some flights of stairs and running else wise to his vehicle, and then collapsing, I have to wonder just just what really was the extent of the wound suffered. I'm thinking that there was a large ability remaining for the 'flight' mechanism to still operate, until the power to operate was lost. Aside from all that, my experience is that most animals which have been dealt a fatal blow, will continue to exercise the escape option and run until there is nothing left in the 'system' to tell it otherwise. Put another way, the brain causes the nervous system to exercise the last command, and until the nervous system looses its 'power' to operate, the muscles will operate in some fashion until the 'power' shuts down. Whether the muscles operate in a coordinated fashion, or merely randomly, is a question for physiologists to answer. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Face values. etc
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I've just finished putting the finishing touches to the end of my involvement with the shooting sports; Returning my Certs to the police, handing in what ammo I had, put my shotguns in the local shop for sale etc. --snip-- Steve, Jim, Jim: You'll be sorely missed. Not in the way of a contributor, but in the way of being in the ranks of active, and interested members of the shooting community. Experience is something that takes personal attention, and dedication. Sometimes you walk the lonely road by yourself, wondering if you'll ever meet another soul -- a companion to share the thoughts of fun, exasperation, contemplation, preparation, and pregnant anticipation. Here's hoping that you'll have second thoughts, and return to sport that no one has ever mastered, but merely professed a love of and cussed out their competitors behind their backs, only to return and be decimated once again! Where else can you compete against yourself and win? Where else can you have so much fun losing? -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Siberia's top wolf hunter
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Times 17.2.01 Woman aged 62 is Siberia's top wolf hunter From Giles Whittell in Moscow A SIBERIAN woman aged 62 has been awarded L50 and an unlimited hunting licence for killing more wolves than any man in her province. --snip-- What is it with journalists, accurate reporting and Russian smallarms? Rusty -- Accurate to 2,000 metres? 200 maybe! Steve. Steve, Rusty, I'm shocked, SHOCKED! And, maybe just a little bit appalled, that the Russian Government has allowed one of their citizens to have a dread assault weapon. Good lord! Don't they know that merely possessing one of those things will cause her to WANT to go on a murdering spree?!! I have one of those terrible 'weapons' in a safe along with several other variety of rifles. I'm wondering if I shouldn't place it in a separate safe all by its lonesome, just to be sure that it doesn't give those other rifles some 'bad ideas'. It's bad enough that I have to force myself to be reeducated every time I dare touch that weapon of war, and I have been told that touching one more than a few times a month will cause hair to grow on your palms, as well as cause you to sweat bullets (not sure what caliber though). On the other hand, it could solve a logistics problem . . . -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- But it's not an "assault weapon", it doesn't have a detachable mag, that's why they're still legal to import into the US (provided they're not Russian or Chinese, Bulgarian are okay though ;) ) Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Bodyguard killed
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Times 19.2.01 By Stewart Tendler Crime Correspondent A MOTHER and her two children are in hiding after a wealthy nightclub owner was shot and injured and his bodyguard killed. Arthur de Sousa, 33, was found lying sprawled on a road while Al el-Hachadi, 27, his bodyguard, was killed in the village of Pangbourne, Berkshire, on Saturday evening. The two were ambushed after arriving to visit a house in the village. --rest snip-- Steve, Rusty, Amazing, ain't it? Take away the lawfully held arms, and the criminals are empowered beyond their wildest dreams. The cops complain, and politicians elevate their noses in disdain when they are reminded that few registered arms have ever been used in a crime. But, how many unregistered arms are now being used in crime? The argument, it seems, is that the police and politicians commented that removing those lawfully held arms would make for a 'safer' community. Safer? For what? From what? For whom? If lawfully held arms were not involved in but a few, highly sensational, and largely isolated instances of crime, then what of the illegally held arms? At least before, the police knew who was in possession, and who had been through the wringer of 'approval'. Now they know nothing, and the criminals are verily laughing in their faces. The police want to know every aspect of the lawful owners of firearms, yet as these owners who brave the veritable assault upon their privacy -- which opens them to insult, innuendo, and suspicion, virtually nothing the police discover has every STOPPED a crime. It may have prevented the lawful acquisition of a firearm, but it most certainly NEVER stopped a crime from happening. It seems that those who deprive the lawful of their rights -- because the unlawful flaunt the law at every turn -- would have the enforcers of the law deprive everyone of every right, in order to prevent anyone from exercising a right in order to capture the law breakers. But if the law breakers disregard the laws now, what makes the law makers and enforcers believe that by totality they will achieve their end? When every right is reduced to a prohibition, then everyone will disregard the law, and everyone will become an outlaw, merely because it will become fashionable to break the law. Sound familiar? If those who would distrust the average citizen from possession of an arm because the arm 'might' be misused by either the owner or someone who comes by it illegally, then it must be said that by virtue of the historical record, the concern is not well founded, merely because it cannot be shown certifiably that lawfully held arms have ever been used criminally in such a quantity as to raise the concern of the police, that the populace itself was at risk of mass lawlessness. All one need do is quantify the number of lawfully held arms, and balance that against the number which have been used in a crime: the number of misused arms pales into insignificance, elevated by only the most salacious and malicious lies to a veritable tempest in a teapot. When such insidious, hateful, and despicable assertions are employed to make law, it is found that whatever was legislated against was not cured, but rather elevated in the status of concern. And further, that additional restrictions were asserted as necessary in order to confound the increase in criminality -- which restrictions unto themselves further exacerbated the 'problem.' By what manner of logic does one propose to deny lawful members of a community a right, just because periodically one of them manages to become less than stable mentally, whereas the criminal element -- which is virtually uncontrollable in any sense -- is given free gratis to enthrall the community at large with gratuitous violence? Simply because the lawful obey the laws? Or is it perhaps a more insidious, and less understood act by the inner reaches of government itself, that operates to invite ever more laws against every liberty, by allowing the criminals to freely acquire arms, conduct murderous sprees, inviting an outcry for ever more stringent laws that will eventually strangle liberty in the name of 'law and order'? If criminals with unregistered firearms have committed more crime than the absolute largest number of lawful firearms owners who subsequently committed a crime, then I venture so say that even the most unlawful of firearm owners who were registered with the police also pales into utter, complete, and total insignificance. By what measure and reference to past law does government propose to punish the populace at large, for the criminal acts of so few? ET -- By banning their guns, I guess. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The essence of the question is: if a wild predatory animal inflicts a certain level of misery upon its prey -- in the process of subduing it, what would you deem to be onerous when a human is conducting the same act? Oh please - there is a massive difference. You cannot equate a natural kill by an animal with what is basically a human sport with rules, conventions and a yearly fixture. You know I firmly believe that a major reason that people oppose fox hunting, in this country anyway, is because the supporters try to justify their cause with comments like this. In short you are treating the people who oppose you like idiots and they fight harder because of it. --snip-- I'll bite. First, and foremost, the reasons for allotting of licenses is to ensure that the 'pool' of animals that are hunted will not be decimated. Left to their own devices, most of the so-called 'game animals' would face extreme cycles of famine caused by over-population, and then near extinction as their natural predator's populations grew as a result of their herd sizes. The 'game' animals are called such, because of the royalty of yore, who engaged in 'hunting games', whilst the paupers and serfs were usually denied such pleasures, depending instead on the more abundant vermin. The rules you speak of, were devised as a means to ensure that the animals were given a fair chance to escape their predator, who in the modern guise may avail himself to easy transport, roads, and increased efficiency of methods for dispatch. I rather despise the term 'game' animal for several reasons, but mostly because it has been taken advantage of by those whose antipathies would deprive every essence of the natural spirit of humanity. It seems that we have been elevated to the status of demigods, and therefore must pooh-pooh what was formerly done by our near ancestors, if only because it connects us to the reality of our essential selves. And, heaven help us, should we should suddenly realize that we really are some kind of blood spilling predator dependant upon the flesh of other animals for our survival. That people hunt is not to be disparaged, anymore than attacking the proclivities of a wild -- or domesticated predator. Again, as I've stated previously, there are people 'out there' who have an abiding hatred of humans, and would -- if they possessed the power -- seek to decimate every human on the face of the earth, except themselves and some close friends. They see humanity as vermin unto themselves, predating the entire biosphere. Are we unnatural? I think not, that is, unless we seek to deny our essential qualities, and then we seek all manner of unnatural things. It might be noted here that it isn't the hunter that has disrupted the environment, and caused all manner of chaos, but the anti-hunter who, in seeking to prevent a 'perceived' misery, has instead created in the wake of the 'theme' park all manner of misery. It is the artificial expressions of those who can't face the truth of the matter, that have created the largest depredation's. And to continually hide the blunders of stupidity, they hire 'government hunters' to fix the 'occasional problems'. That, Neil, is the real problem. --rest snip-- -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Proliferation of Small Arms
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] STOP SPREAD OF WEAPONS, URGES COOK 131054 FEB 10 By PA News Reporter The Foreign Secretary today called for an international fund to be set up to help stop the spread of weapons around the world. Robin Cook said it was needed to stop small arms being used by criminals and illegitimate groups. __ And a good way to achieve this is to deny the criminals the opportunities to steal guns from the law abiding subjects, which is the justification for a total gun ban. But, in our usual inept way to solve problems, we would only force the criminals to change their tools when we should be addressing the root of the problem - THE WEALTH. --snip-- Banning things purifies the soul and this should be in the Labour's election manifesto. There are two ways to defeat any government. We can fight them or we can lead them in the wrong direction towards obscurity. But that will bring to power the brainless Tories, who are only good at preparing the ground for the next New Labour (Revision 2)!!! What are we to do? Alex Steve, Alex, Alex: Maybe you should read Robin Cook's statement again, as regards criminals and "illegitimate groups". You might be one of those "illegitimate groups" one day. I profess no perfect knowledge; I sincerely desire it though. And, if I/you/we possessed it, would I/you/we realize it? I quite agree that government is the problem, if only because it is perceived as THE solution by people who should know better. Men who hate other men, would create the force necessary to exploit those 'other men', and subjugate 'those others' to their own will. That, my good man, is the essence of _all_ 'government'. It remains for good men (and women too) to understand that to control another person, is to deny one's self as well. To dam the source is to damn the possibilities, and ultimately cause chaos. When everything is in the open, then nothing is concealed. That is the objective: to have an open mind. When there is nothing to stop your vision, then you see all the possibilities. Criminality is possessed of the hidden, the unknown, and the controlled: begins to sound just like government, does it not? -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I think we already are one of those illegitimate groups given that our "weapons of mass destruction" were banned in 1988! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Positive reply from Bracknell MP
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike: You might also comment that if that 'government' of yours cannot trust you with firearms, how can they trust you with any kind of expression (as in speech, or press), as that is always the 'gateway' through which all other methods of 'expression' are availed. Just a 'thought'. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Getting the guns off the street!!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If he is a police armourer he almost certainly has Section 5 authority so there is an excellent chance he has done nothing wrong. Steve. Steve, David, Maybe he irritated someone? That comment above about "enough weapons to start a war" is about as irresponsible a remark as I've read lately. I certainly would not comment that any object is a weapon, unless it had -- after that fact -- been used as such. So, merely possessing an arm -- and not the ammunition -- is considered having the capability to wage war? In that case, let us head over to whatever authority and register our brains, since it without a question the most important aspect of humanity that allows even the thought to 'wage war'. And, it the wherewithal is knowledge, then we may as well submit to intensive questioning and subsequent constant censure, lest we let the 'cat out of the bag'. -- Well, given that Robin Cook is making lots of speeches at the moment about cracking down on the arms trade perhaps his local police took it to heart. Certainly the Foreign Office have started investigations before of companies like Sandline and various others also that were accused of shipping stuff to Iraq and they all collapsed in court. No doubt the police will search through the pile of stuff they have seized and charge him with minor technical offences that any RFD could be charged with, but who knows, perhaps he is some major criminal. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Shooting venues in Florida?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Folks I think this is a perennial questionbut here goes. I am going to Florida early April...the Orlando Area. Are there any "interesting* shooting venues. I would appreciate a change from the *Mickey Mouse* attractions I will have to visit. Regards Brian -- There are lots of ranges around Orlando. --snip-- Steve. Steve, Brian, I used the http://superpages.gte.com/ and found only one range listed for Orlando, expressly advertising itself as a range. I used the search term of ''shooting galleries and ranges" and found: Oak Ridge Gun Range 632 West Oak Ridge Road, Orlando, FL 32809 (407) 857-5663 Then I tried "Pistol ranges" as the search term and found: Mid-Florida Gun Sales 2911 39th Street, Orlando, FL 32839 (407) 428-6225 Also: Riegs Gun Shop Shooting Range Security Guard TRA 5512 South Orange Blossom Trail, Orlando, FL 32839 (407) 859-1066 Hope that helps. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- You'll probably find some of them aren't in metro Orlando, try a search on the 407 area code. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If hunting is not cruel, why then am I prosecuted if I set a pack of large dogs onto a smaller, solitary dog? All that the Hunting Bill really can be said to be doing is simply extending to wild mammals the protection that domestic mammals have enjoyed since before the Kaiser's War. I also believe that yes, hawking is also cruel, as is the practice of ritual slaughter and the live feeding of reptiles with mice, rats and birds. But, as Abraham Lincoln said :"One war at a time". I shall also not be going to the march in March. Why? Because I am not one of those who wish to see my sport - live quarry shooting - hijacked as "marching fodder" by the houndsports lobby, whilst almost every day I am subject to hearing or reading letters from the red coated fraternity in the local media in my local press justifying their method of "fox control" because "shooting is cruel"! --snip-- Steve, Richard, Richard: As one human to another, I respect your beliefs, your sensibilities, and your rights to either pursue or decline an interest that in itself harms no other human. It seems that where you find umbrage, is in the manner which another person seeks to pursue an interest which you find less than humane. In essence, what you state has been expressed numerous times throughout the history of humanity: that needless suffering is at times inflicted upon prey, by both the animal and human predator. That is the perception. I highlight the word 'perception' for a good reason. I would ask only one thing: at what level would you constrain humanity, relative to the same act conducted by a wild animal upon another wild animal? The essence of the question is: if a wild predatory animal inflicts a certain level of misery upon its prey -- in the process of subduing it, what would you deem to be onerous when a human is conducting the same act? Care to entertain another question? The question arises, when we consider that modern natural predators are finely adapted hunters, that have all of the traits necessary to seek, track, stalk, and capture its selected prey -- the better part of the time. Now, it these predatory animals are more adapted to their tasks than humans (we are relegated to making tools for the same purpose which aren't nearly as good as we'd care to confess), how can we lessors to the art of hunting be constrained to a degree of humaneness, when it is totally beyond the pale to even consider such thinking when observing the natural predator? Merely that we are human? We humans who have partaken in the hunt, with primitive tools that have no keen edges, no projectiles as arrows, bullets and the like, and have pursued the prey in the most barbaric way, know of the savagery that the human psyche is capable of. It frightens me to consider that we are possessed of such a naturally violent nature. To think that we could, and are fully capable of attacking another human in the same totally primitive manner as we might attack an animal, is thought provoking. Periodically we read of such attacks, and are astounded by them, and by their sheer brutality. But it is our essential nature. We deprive it for various reasons, mostly I think, because we do not wish to be attacked in that way, and are therefore inclined to associate in a 'civil' way, in order that our own kind will persevere against the elements. But I digress. If it is our natural modus operandi to behave as we do on a hunt, then I would ask: At what point do we constrain ourselves to, at what point do we not proceed, at what point do we refuse to mimic the natural predator? And, by what measure, by what prescribed limit are we to presume that the animals we have bred for a purpose are no longer suitable, when it is within their natural capabilities -- and proclivities -- otherwise? And, lastly, if one human perceives of certain misery inflicted upon another creature, perhaps undeservedly so by the measure we apply when humans are the comparison, do we err when we apply that measure to the hunt, and apply it psychologically as though the animal were domesticated? -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-NZ gun registration unlikely
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://onenews.nzoom.com/news_detail/0,1227,29750,00.html Setback for gun registration plan Steve, Mike, John (Howat), It's good (and that is stating it mildly) that John's organization has made inroads in this matter. I wonder how much an impact our own letters -- eloquently penned and appropriately civil -- would further the cause of our brothers and sisters that southern land? John: your voice is needed here. If we can ever hope to get over the top and beyond, then we must assist in every way we can. Let us bolster the voice of Liberty in every way we might! If the light of reason can shine for even a moment, it will be as a beacon in the night, and entice all others to see the error of their way. Let us help sustain that lantern! -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Time to take guns out of community
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] a.. On Thursday a man was jailed for seven years at the Old Bailey for stabbing to death a rival in a crowded mobile phone shop in Harlesden. Rupert "Birdeye" James, 35, was acquitted of murdering Dean Samuels but convicted of manslaughter. He claimed Samuels had bullied and "dissed" him. - IIRC, they told us that they'd "taken all these guns off the streets" after the 1997 ban. So, how come it's time again to "take guns out of the community"? The only difference this time is that the guns _are_ actually on the streets and in the community and not in someone's locker. mike Steve, Mike, To which I reply in a poetic manner: In the days of yore, when men were poor And the 'guns' we kept Were nothing to score, We were erstwhile friends And ner' do wells, In the eyes of the landed and the gentry, We looked the part of bums, But never harmed a soul, Yet were thought as scoundrels, And lessors, and scum. All because we would not, Accept the thrashing The disenfranchisement, And discount, We were reviled as less than, The whore in ill repute, Here it seems, We again face the same, Ill refrain of the same old song, That no matter what we do, We are always wrong. But as the script says, And it is quite unique, That in the end (over and over), When it is peace that all will seek We who have harmed none, Will in the end be the meek, And the earth will be ours: For the Meek are not the weak. If it matters, we are right, and have been for quite some time. We have only to persevere and bide our time till the matter is resolved to our benefit. But, never should we let our guard down. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Emigrate!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- In short the system is making things worse not better and it's about time that those in the system relearned one startling fact. It is there to help those 'idiots' not to feed off of them and control them, how do you do that? stop treating them like idiots, but that would be far too risky they might even figure out what the system and those in it have been taking them for. Emigrating what a loverly idea! roger hardley Steve, Roger, There's an answer here somewhere -- that doesn't include violence. More along the lines of realization. I must ask though, why is it that humanity seemingly requires periodic purges that involve large amounts of death? For the entire span of recorded human history, it is 'liberally' sprinkled with war in the name of whatever passes for acceptable. Then things either get better, or a whole lot worse. Then they get even worse, and then get better, or the you-know-what hits the fan and everybody dies (Jonestown, for instance). And, if it is the 'system' that is making things so bad, then why on the Creator's green Earth do we continually allowing it to exist? If someone has the answers to these questions, please don't hold back. I'd like to appreciate a good ale withOUT the niggling worry of Domesday on the horizon. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Domesday? Isn't that Peter Mandleson's birthday? G Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-More Anti-Gun Lies Refuted
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is a WorldNetDaily printer-friendly version of the article which follows. To view this item online, visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?21648 --snip-- "Currently, only a small minority of adult American women own a handgun," said the VPC report. "Before a woman purchases a handgun for protection, she must pause to consider whether the grave risk . is one she is willing to accept." --rest snip-- Steve, Chris, Couldn't help but catch that unintended double entendre, in that last sentence: " consider the grave risk . . ." Risk going to the grave, by not having a firearm. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-ACPO may lose independence
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Police Review 2/2/01 Article 1 ACPO could lose independence over lack of funds, says president By Tina Orr-Munro --big snip-- Steve, Charles, Maybe someone should suggest that seeing as how the ACPO is an 'association', that it ought -- like other associations -- seek its funding from the members it is supposed to represent, and not rely on whatever teat of government happens to be handy. Talk about being dependent of action . . . To rely on that noun, in the private sense, as one would to the private member club that requires participation and dues paying, then it seems to me that the term has been misappropriated to reflect a valid society, when it fact it is nothing of the sort. And, more importantly, it should have no input to any organ of government, except as is normally availed to by any other private entity. All of which is to say that its input would not be accepted above that of the individual citizens. Further, for it to make rules that are in essence subsumed into law, is the height of what can essentially be called an incestuous relationship -- if not outright nepotism of the government family of organizations, public and private. Either you are a private organization, or you are a front organization for the Home Office. Talk about thinly veiled toadies . . . If the veil gets any thinner, the naughty bits will show -- I wish they were a front organisation for the Home Office, I think it's the other way around though, certainly as far as guns are concerned. They do need to change their name though, how an organisation that is 98% funded by the taxpayer can portray itself as an "association" is stretching it. Read this: "Prohibition of handguns has been considered. Although some Chief Officers would support total prohibition of handguns, this is not felt to be practical. Target shooting using handguns has been legitimised through sport, up to, and including, Olympic level. Therefore, a blanket prohibition of handguns would unfairly impact upon members of society taking part in lawful sporting activities." - A T Burden, Chief Constable Gwent Constabulary, Chairman, ACPO Sub-Group on the Administration of Firearms, April 1996. And now they want to ban long-barrelled revolvers! What a joke. Talk about hypocrisy. The cynic in me tells me that they are too worried about their funding to be taken seriously, either that or they have been progressively taken over by anti-gun bigots. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-LACS abuse
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, hello group. I'm now just a teensy bit annoyed having just done my shopping in Oxford's pleasant Westgate centre when, as I walked out of the door, I found two of the Loonies Against Country Squires (lacs) at a table getting people's signatures for a petition. --snip-- Just my 0.02... Mike -- Feel better now? Steve. Steve, Mike, Mike: You walked straight into your own ambush. Rule number one: Always start by asking questions that aren't leading, that simply ask for a clarification, and seek information to evince the truth of the proposition. This is called the fishing expedition: You are looking for the real truth of the matter. Rule number two: Always demand proof of assertions, and never allow crass generalizations. Demand to know the source of any facts that are propounded on. If the source is merely commented upon, with a 'go see for yourself' answer, then you are free to assert that there is no proof, simply because the opponent has 'tossed you a bone', and they expect you to go chase it -- to get rid of you. All you really needed to do is ask them for the proof of their figures, or other assertive statements. If they cannot provide, then you can attack their statements at will. Anyone supposedly prepared enough to go out and collect signatures, should have a good supply of copies of their source of facts. Anything less is begging a good trashing. Rule number three: Always attack the message, NEVER the messenger. And if you are attacked as you were, make it a point, by shaming them for being so juvenile as to not be able to hold their own is a discussion without resorting to personal attacks. Remember: Turnabout is fair play. But never dwell on it. You know that you have exposed a weakness when the personal attacks start. Attacking the messenger is a favorite tactic of people who know that their argument will never hold water in a serious debate. Therefore they cast aspersions with ad hominem attacks to incite bystanders to join in, or to seriously shadow your own holdings -- even if you have presented none. It's called winning at any cost, even at the expense of the truth. This is also a tactic that is employed to distract attention away from the weak heart of the argument. In other words, attack them for being juvenile, but then immediately get right back to the idea in contention. The corollary here: do not -- even in the slightest -- allow yourself to show emotion when attacked as you were, but instead focus on the target idea, like a LASER, which leads to rule number four. Rule number Four: Always stay on subject, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, allow the discussion to wander, not even to related subjects. If it starts to wander, move immediately back on 'target'. The adage here is that moving targets are evidence that the argument used by your opponent is weak and cannot be sustained. Every argument/position/proposition must stand on its own without support. Every argument against hunting can be effectively dispatched by the use of scientific proofs following under human physiology, animal comparative physiology, anthropology, modern medicine, and historical fact. It's called: get a 'fact', check it out. Most common 'new' facts, are propositions by people who have an idea, have done considerable research in the matter of interest and have written a treatise. Or, they are simply propagandists who have written a book with 'facts and data' that support their contentions, neglecting in the process to offer up contrary evidence that would otherwise confound and neutralize their own idea. The former are honest enough to include facts and data which tend to counter their idea. The latter are just plain liars, as there is no other word that best describes them. Perhaps it is a commentary on the common man that the latter garner more an audience than the former. Then again, maybe the common man is just prodding the liars to make even bigger fools of themselves for yet another distraction from the everyday. In summary: Go fishing. Demand the facts. Question the THOSE facts. Concentrate on THOSE facts only. Chances are, if you can't get an honest answer, there isn't one. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CS: Misc-Haiku
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] To write a poem in seventeen syllables is very diffi Quite probably so, in a short little span is quite iffy But then English, more complex to speak, is more spiffy! - Not less not more but Seventeen true required. It needs to be right. --snip-- Leave it to a Brit To show up a Yank with wit, And titter a bit! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Winston Churchill....
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Isn't it a bit harsh to claim that winnie was the first to introduce gun control just because you had to give 'reasonable' proof that you were a homeowner ?. After all the 1903 Act hardly brought in tons of new laws did it ?. -- --snip-- Oddly enough in my research I found evidence that the Pistols Bill 1911 was based partly on the New York Pistol Act 1911, and subsequently the Firearms Act 1920 was based partly on the 1911 Bill, so in fact our gun laws are based on American gun laws, how's that for irony? Steve. Steve, James, At the expense of using the 'C' word (conspiracy), allow me to infer that it would appear that there were like minded people of both our nations who had and idea and were bent on expressing it. Tenuous connections are the hardest to confirm as having reliable association to related events, especially when there appears no written record to validate the suspicions -- at least no written record that we might be privy to. Laws of one nation, are seldom copied by other nations, unless there is more than a passing interest. I find it very interesting that Canadian Brit laws were copied from US laws, at about the same time, I find it even more interesting, that NAZI law was codified into US law. This isn't simply a matter of what works getting onto the law books of other nations, but rather, what is viewed as what is passable in the political sense. As an exercise here, I might ask (to test the validity of the premise of conspiracy) just what other aspects of US law were as well codified into either Brit or Canadian law. If it is only the firearms laws that were copied, then I will assert that there was more than a tenuous connection, and look for a likely 'vector' which promoted the idea in the respective nations. From my vantage point, someone, or a party of them, were very well informed of English Law, and American Law. They used their knowledge of that body of law to formulate law that would pass the 'slippery slope' test, and be used to build upon later. There is way too much here that cannot be tossed to chance. Our respective corpus juris is way too similar, and that's the tie-in that allows one set of laws to be related to the other. My two coppers worth. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I don't think it was a conspiracy per se, from reading the archives of the New York Times and various other old newspapers I got the impression that in the early 20th century it was fairly common for Americans to copy our laws and vice versa, simply because we had more in common in terms of language. I found references to Home Office officials visiting New York prior to World War One, the paper said the officials had meetings with the New York City Police Dept. to discuss more effective ways of fighting crime and so on. One article I found did mention a discussion about the regulation of the "trade in pistols" or something like that. I think it is a reasonable assumption the Home Office came away with a copy of the New York Pistol Act from that meeting. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The March : Slogans
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] How about, "Mr. Blair this time we're up in arms, Next time we'll be up and ARMED" Subtle ? A Cynic is what a Romantic Calls a Realist Clive01 Steve, Clive, We are reduce to the 'sound-bite', are we not? In this environment, it pays to pack as much wallop as one can, in the shorted space possible. With that in mind, allow me these in your endeavor: Fast Laws = fast food = junk. Banning disease is no cure: neither is banning guns. The cure is training and safe handling! Why punish so many innocent, for the crimes of so few? Gun bans equals more gun crime (Latest stats). If guns kill, why isn't the army dead? An ounce of prevention: Firearms training A pound of NO cure: Firearms prohibition Criminals laugh at police, but fear armed citizens. Yesterday: Armed and safe. Today: Disarmed and victimized. Driver ed. Sex ed. Why not firearms ed? It's for the children. Safety through knowledge, not ignorance! No trigger ever pulled a finger! When facing a thug, a gun in the hand beats two cops in the station! If guns are so dangerous, why is Switzerland is so safe? Beef on the bone, guns in the home, weight of the King, the Internet shown, The Pound almost gone, the whole is a ruse. Speak now, or the whole you will lose! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Actually how about that Thomas Jefferson quote. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Haiku
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] To write a poem in seventeen syllables is very diffi Steve, Charles, Quite probably so, in a short little span is quite iffy But then English, more complex to speak, is more spiffy! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-More stupidity in America
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll raise your finger with my chicken... :-(Stupidity running rampant. Mike Pietrantoni Boy Suspended for Pointing Chicken .c The Associated Press JONESBORO, Ark. (AP) - An 8-year-old boy was suspended from school for 3 days after pointing a breaded chicken finger at a teacher and saying, ``Pow, pow, pow.'' --snip-- Sullivan said punishment for a threat ``depends on the tone, the demeanor, and in some manner you judge the intent. It's not the object in the hand, it's the thought in the mind. Is a plastic fork worse than a metal fork? Is a pencil a weapon?'' Steve, Mike, Is a thought a dangerous thing? Stupidity? More like hideously gross moronic insanity. What we witness is the most overt attempt to influence the thinking of a whole people: behavior modification on a grand scale. What these laws intend is to remove a whole thought pattern from the national psyche, and supplant it with a new paradigm. The results are less than sterling, for if the idea were as honest as it pretends to be, then its effects would have less onerous impact. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-.50 Peacekeeper
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Like you suggested before, it only needs someone to neck 50BMG down a bit - and guess what? They have! See latest version of 'The Accurate Rifle' magazine. Cheers VinceB -- I assume you mean the .50 Peacekeeper. Steve. Steve, Vince, If your devious law makers are anything like our (US) lawmakers, then be prepared for a law that not only outlaws the actual firearm, but the ammunition as well, and any derivative of the casing. Better to fight against any law, than to have worry about the devil in the details of one. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I'm still intrigued as to how they could define it without also banning lots of other things - which would be outside the scope of an order under Section 1(4). Going by the draft guidance the Home Office is concocting they still have yet to realise that if .50BMG was banned people could use, say 20mm instead. I think basically ACPO have been reading USA Today for too long. They don't seem to realise our gun laws are completely and totally different. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-GCN and the FCC
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have just received a reply from my MP regarding the validity of the GCN (all six members) and its position on the FCC. The reply was the usual covering letter, but also enclosed was a copy of a letter from Charles Clarke, the minister at the Home Office, his letter is reproduced below : --big snip-- Comments anyone ? -- I got the same letter about a year ago. Steve. Steve, Atom, Comments? You bet! Like for instance, what is an absolutist organization as the GCN, with its political motivations to totally eliminate personally held firearms, doing on a committee which stated purpose is to deal with the more mundane issues of ownership and use? If having that organization on the FCC is supposed to be a validating issue of balance, then how can a group of only six people have any validity, where there are numerous other organizations that have even more an interest in balance, yet are not even considered for committee membership? How, I'd like to ask, would having a group of six rapists be seen as having any kind of validity in the name of balance in a woman's rape counselling center? The GCN already has more than enough say in the issues of firearms, by virtue of an unlimited voice in the Parliament, in the mass media, and in the FCC. If the issue is one of balance, then it is the community of firearms owners and users which needs exponentially greater exposure of its thoughts in this matter, both in the Parliament, and the mass media. The FCC should be concerned only with the purpose for which it was instituted, and not perverted by a subversive organization which has stated innumerable times its extremist goals. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I haven't actually heard anything out of the GCN for a long time, other than Gill's infrequent appearances for rent-a-quotes. They seemed rather silent when the crime statistics came out showing that the handgun ban has been an absolute disaster. I like that quote! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-foxes
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] fox meat is tasty or otherwise, is a matter to be determined. I tend to think that it might require a bit of curing time, not unlike elk, wild goose, duck, bear, and some other animals. And, as with those animals, spice -- in large quantities -- might be more the rule than the exception. Don't know where you're getting your duck and geese from..:-) Pete Steve, Pete, Well, out here in Washington -- the Real Washington (tm), wild geese and ducks don't get fed on corn, they most usually eat grass, slugs, and the aquatic alga. Believe me, birds that eat that have eaten that stuff have a very 'gamy' taste, unless the carcass is allowed to hang for a day or three upside down. I know of one hunter that leaves them hang for up to a week. I know of hunters that have left large mats of cracked corn out for the local Canadian Geese (I say local, because some of them never migrate as a result of finding an abundance of food put out by bleeding hearts chapter of PAWS/SPCA/etc.). At a little before hunting time, the geese find the corn and make little piggies of themselves. The hunter is only taking advantage of a good thing. Corn fed tastes as corn fed is! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman Let it be told to the future world, that in the depth of winter, when nothing but hope and virtue could survive, that the city and the country, alarmed at one common danger, came forth to meet and repulse it." - Thomas Paine =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-foxes
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll wager none of you gentleman has ever paunched a fox, nor handled its flesh, else you wouldn't suggest anyone eats it. The flesh of a fox is as dark as that of a hare, but it smells as bad as the fox itself. It is a rich meat, compared to the delicate flesh of a rabbit, and my old redtailed hawk loved it. The foxes were worth shooting just to feed the hawl a rich diet through the summer moult, if for no other reason. --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner Steve, Jonathan, I spent the better part of two hours 'cruising' the net looking for leads on the consuming of 'fox meat', and I'm here to say that it is done. It will take me a day or two to sift through the pertinent sites to assemble the list -- if you are really interested. Now, whether fox meat is tasty or otherwise, is a matter to be determined. I tend to think that it might require a bit of curing time, not unlike elk, wild goose, duck, bear, and some other animals. And, as with those animals, spice -- in large quantities -- might be more the rule than the exception. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-AIC Australia gun laws fail
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Courier Mail - Queensland Gun laws marginal in impact on crime Chris Griffith 26jan01 AUSTRALIA'S gun laws have had only a marginal effect on reducing firearm-related crime. Steve, SSAA, It is rather interesting that in all of this runs a theme which seems to be largely ignored: No law is ever effective that attempts to modify behavior which harms no other person. Being a public nuisance is one thing, harming others is quite another; and, not harming anyone at all, is no reason to prohibit a thing. Why is it that nobody seems to understand that what you seek to change by force, you will become? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-foxes
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't believe that cats feature on the fox's menu: mice, birds, worms, fish chips, pizza and hamburgers yes, but not domestic cats. Jonathan is right, foxes give domestic moggies their due respect. I once watched some night vision recordings of a back garden in the UK in which a moggie sat washing it's face right in the middle of a footpath. A large fox had to step around the moggie to be on his way - both ignored each other, as equally matched opponents generally do. The odd kitten may fall victim, but an adult cat is more than a match for any fox. Rusty Steve, Rusty, Jonathan, Okay, maybe you're correct on this. Surely you don't expect me to admit my error, do you??? Well, even if you do, I ain't a-gonna. So there! much laughter Anyway, here are some good fox research sites, and the second one down even has a picture of a fox and a cat not more than 4 feet from each other -- just sitting nonchalantly. Discussing the weather, I suppose, as the cat doesn't even look the slightest perturbed. You'll have to forgive me, but the foxes I knew when I was a kid, were a lot bigger than the cats we had. So, either the cats got bigger, or the fox got smaller. Your guess. http://www.csubak.edu/FACT/kitfox.html http://www.foxbox.org/fact/index.html http://www.foxes.org/urbanfox/ http://wildwnc.org/af/redfox.html http://www.foxes.org/urbanfox/part2.html http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/vulpes/v._vulpes$narrative.html#contents -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman Let it be told to the future world, that in the depth of winter, when nothing but hope and virtue could survive, that the city and the country, alarmed at one common danger, came forth to meet and repulse it." - Thomas Paine =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Placards and Banners at Countryside March
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The nation might be sympathetic towards claims for the restoration of an internationally recognised sport, but demanding something that we lost half a century ago would be seen as unreasonable and like trying to run before being able to walk. Such demands would diminish the effect of the march and give the government a reason to discredit us on the grounds that we are promoting gun culture. If this march was to demand the government's action on the Law and Order issue (lack of), then the self defence would fit in well, but it is not part of countryside pursuits. Alex Steve, Alex, Paradise Lost? Well, as I say, go for what you think you can get -- and then some. Never ask only for what you think you can get, as you will almost always get less than what you thought you would need. Honesty flew out the window eons ago. I appreciate your concerns in this matter -- as do many others, but if you are ever to reclaim your rights here, then you must be prepared to belly-up to the bar and speak with an affirmative voice: the falsetto will only produce ridicule. What the government giveth, the government can taketh away. If it is your rights you are out to reclaim -- something the government can neither give nor take, but merely control by ordinance, then anything but an affirmative voice, and a demanding tone will invite a denunciatory and condescending rebuke. Remember here, that it is you who was insulted by every machination of stupidity, stultified reasoning, and convolute logic in every wherewithal of law. I was under the impression that the CM was about inherent aspects of not just the countryside, but those interests clustered about that theme as well. And lastly, the longer those idiotic laws sit in your law books, the harder it will be to ultimately remove them, it being a relative truth that deceits gather the mantle of respect the longer they are allowed to go unchallenged. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Fire Resistant Military Clothing
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does anyone know of any reports or policies regarding the dangers of synthetic operational clothing or equipment which may have followed a fire on board a ship during the Falklands War? Does anyone know if all the present UK operational clothing including PLCE webbing is fire resistant? Craig Innes [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This is an intriguing question, I always wondered whether the waterproofs I was issued would give off toxic fumes if they were set on fire. The DPM stuff was fire resistant I'm pretty sure. My issue combat jacket says the outer is made of cotton/modal if that helps. Steve. Steve, Craig, The only synthetic fabric that I am aware of as being flame retardant is Nomex. There are others, but I don't recall their composition or trade names. Cotton/coton (your choice) by itself isn't a problem. When I was serving in the US Navy, the move to all cotton clothing for the working dungaree uniform was quick, sometime in the late 70's, as there was a concern about melting fabric. There was a bit of a noise about the blended fabrics for the dress uniforms, but that was of concern only if you happened to be at general quarters in that uniform -- not often at sea, except for the bridge crew on some ships. There were still some polyester uniforms issued, but they seem to have been depleted, and none were issued in boot camp after a certain date. As I indicated in a previous post, wool is dangerous when it burns, as it produces cyanide gas. But the Navy dress blues are melton wool, as are the standard issue blankets for the bunks. Go figure. ET -- I saw something on TV about a research unit at the DERA doing various tests on military clothing. Bear in mind the difference between fire resistant and fire proof. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Fishing next
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Came by this from the telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=003609235117673rtmo=r 9EFSXXXatmo=tttdpg=/et/01/1/13/nchip13.html --snip-- Robin Webb, a spokesman for the Animal Liberation Front, said [...] Although I do not condone actions of this kind, I can understand the anger and frustration that leads people to take radical action when the parliamentary road has failed." Looks like fishermen on the riverbanks had better watch out Neil Steve, Neil, Note the attitude: Since we can't have our way, then we must resort to violent behavior. These people always talk of 'democracy', yet, like Marxists, when the majority isn't swayed by their feeble arguments, they resort to terrorism (political temper tantrums) in the hope of driving fear into the hearts of the less inclined to stand up to them. What they cannot achieve by antagonism, they precipitate through the force of terror. It amazed me that they think they have the right to prevail upon everyone, without reason. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." - John Quincy Adams =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Hunting ban
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] For a group of people so concerned about the environment, local ecology and being divorced from nature this seems rather perverse. --snip-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --snip-- I think a ban on fox hunting will be the worst thing to happen to foxes ever. Steve. Steve, Neil, I dunno, Steve. Here in the US, there have been several bans on hunting various things with dogs (hounds, if you will), and the species have bounded back in numbers that could not be ignored. For instance, Black Bear Cougar (mountain lion). In an isolated environment, it could happen as someone has already indicated (Jersey, I believe?). Here's what I think will happen: You will have a steady increase in the actual population of the fox. Especially in the urban areas, cats and squirrel populations will be diminished. People will complain that their cats are disappearing, along with small dogs, and they will buy more to compensate. If Britain is as 'catty' as the US, there will be one hell of a feed, and a corresponding increase in the fox population. Either people will adopt the fox as a kind of 'hedge hog', or they will come to their senses and return to the themes of the past. I think the former before the latter, with sympathizers putting dog food out for the foxes. This will lead to a veritable population explosion, and possibly other things as well. At any rate, at some point somebody -- in government -- will come to his senses and point out that, once again, man has upset the balance and instead of doing nature a favor, has instead tipped the scales in favor of a biased result (so, what else is new?). My few ounces worth of gold. -- You're assuming the word "countryside" in the US meaning of the term. There is little wild countryside in the UK. This is one of the most densely populated countries on Earth. 93% of people live in urban areas. If there isn't a hospitable environment for a species, it dies off, and I seriously doubt there would be for the fox in the highly maintained countryside that passes for the "outdoors" here. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-US Surgeon Gen and tv violence
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/front/20010117/t04603.html Wednesday, January 17, 2001 Surgeon Gen. Links TV, Real Violence Entertainment: Report finds repeated early childhood exposure to intense shows, video games causes aggressive behavior. By JEFF LEEDS, Times Staff Writer The U.S. surgeon general is poised to declare graphically violent television programming and video games harmful to children, marking a potential watershed in the debate over government regulation of entertainment. --rest snip-- Steve, SSAA, Three things: 1) The Surgeon Gen. Office needs to be deactivated -- permanently, for it has devolved into a totally ceremonial office that is used for political purposes only, and nothing else; 2) The leftists have been using the wholly manufactured proclamations of the mouthpiece in office, as a means of leveraging the most invidious and condescending legislation aimed at fostering their social engineering agendas; 3) Every one of their proclamations is used as the 'excuse' for the miscreants, i.e., guns cause crime, entertainment of a certain variety causes related behavior, ownership of certain items fosters negative acts, etc. When you can't dress your arguments up with facts, then the next best thing is to surround them with prevarications, because if you don't then it is soon found out that the emperor really has no clothes. The hallmark of tyranny is an affinity for lies, theft, cheating, and murder, though not necessarily in that order. -- [v*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*\ [=*=\==v---\ (=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. [APIT .50BMG) [=*=/==^---/ [^*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*/ The Militiaman's credo: "Freedom depends not so much on what arms a man may possess, but rather on his determination to stand unafraid in the face of tyranny, and use those arms in a just and warranted defence of that freedom. Anything less is cowardice; anything more is tyranny." ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Gun laws spur more crime
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Believe me there is no crime problem to any unusual extent in Newcastle and it's almost certainly safer than many other places I could mention. Jonathan Laws Steve, Jonathan, Well, in lieu of the inference alluding to it being a high crime area, perhaps one might rather refer to it as a 'target rich environment' when mentioning its repute, if only because the residents of the moment are unduly relegated to being fish in a barrel. When a people surrender their right to take personal responsibility for their own self-defence, then they cannot have valid claims to anything even resembling protest over the inability to offer any resistance to an attack upon their person. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-hunting ban
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yesterdays vote in the House of Prats marked a new low for the principle of freedom in the no longer Great Britain. --snip-- Our transatlantic cousins got totally fed up with this sort of thing over 200 years ago, so why are we still suffering at the hands of the same type of despots? Can it be time for change? feel free to email me offline with your thoughts. Chris Steve, Chris, The matter you suffer under is that of unlimited government. The people of the US had their chance a long time ago to prevent the nature of what exists, and merely accepted what is, instead of what could have been. Heaven knows where we'd be today if a Swiss form of federation had developed instead of what has evolved. Chances are we (the American citizens) would not be occupying half of the world in specious escapades. As an aside, our current situation is the best way to make enemies of the rest of the world. We have what we have now, merely because it is all predicated on money. Money equals power, and power is the essence of all law. With law, you can literally screw everybody on your hate list, and with money, you can truss them up nicely too. Without the money to enforce a law, the law is worthless, and as you should know from old English law: The law which cannot be enforced is not a law. If you could ever, and I mean EVER manage to extricate yourselves from your current predicament (not likely anytime soon), the first thing you must consider is to deny the government the ability to collect taxes. Plain and simple, that aspect needs to be up to the people to decide, and by a super-majority at that. The government that cannot mandate a tax, is essentially without any power to declare anything, for money is the fuel that powers the machine, and without fuel, the machine is lifeless. That is the secret to a quiet and happy life in the British Isles, as elsewhere. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-the debate in Parliament
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] But Tony Banks(Lab, West Ham) who is against hunting, gave assurances that he, personally, would never ban angling. He said: "You don't hunt fish with dogs and if you are a decent angler you put the fish back. I am a coarse fisherman, as you would expect, and I don't think angling can be compared with fox hunting." If it's cruel to chase foxes with dogs, it must also be cruel to catch fish with hook and line, and for that matter to catch them in nets, leaving them to die a lingering death on the decks and workbenches of commercial fisheries vessels. Pete Steve, Pete, All of which neglects to consider that in order to survive, humans are no different from their fellow creatures: They need to eat to survive. This whole matter is stupidly proposing that humanity is somehow a god, or maybe some kind of demigod. As I stated previously, attempting to elevate man above his premise is sort of like asking a set of genes to invoke a newness from which there is no possible ability. We are what we are, and it is sheer effrontery for someone to presume we are better that what we are, like asking a spider to spin her beholding web, but not to ensnare another creature with it. If we were not meant to do what we do, then we most assuredly would not be doing it: nature does not please itself with tasks that have no purpose. The Creator does not, as Einstein said, roll dice. There are -- in the natural world of events -- no evil doers, just survivors. Humans are no different. It is only the overly sensitive who while evincing the ostentatious, pursue the mendacious, and demand the ludicrous. Unnecessary cruelty is what we aspire to, but to pretend that we can survive on nothing more than vegetation is sheer stupidity. We suffer this matter at the hands of people who have no business voting, as they elect to public office the worst dregs of humanity, who in turn denounce the most decent among us, and declare laws that reflect no ounce of sense, but instead invoke sheer stupidity as the manifest declaration of the most fanciful, and the least likely to solve anything, except the eradication of humanity from the face of the earth. It needs to be said frequently, that these people hate themselves more than they hate any of us: They cannot stand to comprehend the idea that they are just plain human, with all the human frailties, physiological dependencies, and plain old desires that come as a package of being plain human, no matter the variety. That, my friends, is what we are up against. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Proofing
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dare I ask, what has the American Heritage Dictionary got to do with the English language? I would consider the custodian of the English language to be the Oxford English Dictionary. Bob Steve, Bob, Bob: Toss an egg in my direction, will you? (You missed!!) grin Um, let's see . . . This wasn't meant as a 'mine is better than yours' kinda thing. Actually, the American Heritage dictionary references the OED for many entries, and includes most unique American words and phrases that have come to common usage, and even some that are no longer is use. Now, what I really want to know, is what happened to your copy of the OED, because my copy has reference to the word 'Proofed'. You'll forgive me -- I hope -- that I am relegated to using the rather small (and almost useless) magnifying glass which comes with the issue, and that seems only to exacerbate reading the fine print. The devil is really in those details! Allow me to direct your attention to the index heading "Proof-Sheet". Thereunder, you should find the entry: 1884 World 3 Dec. 15/2 The outcome is a masterpiece of etching which is being 'proofed'. Following that are two additional entries for 'proofed', one of which I referenced earlier. Say, do you want that egg back? -- [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--\ [=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. [APIT .50) [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--/ ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-308 Round destroys MI
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Worth a look, even to remind us all of the need for proofing http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html Tom C Steve, Tom, I wonder if the bullet was ever recovered? Also, it would seem that maybe the contents of the casing might have enough residue to indicate by chemical analysis the formulation of the propellent. Stuff like that is the food for nightmares. -- [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--\ [=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. [APIT .50) [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--/ ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-More nonsensical gibberish
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Police move to tackle huge rise in gun crime By Ian Burrell, Home Affairs Correspendent 15 January 2001 A national firearms database is to be established for the first time, amid fears over record levels of gun crime. --snip-- -- How on Earth is a national register of every owner going to help determine which criminals possess guns? The mind boggles. Steve. Steve, How indeed! Has anyone risen to the challenge of making them demonstrate just how such a move will prove anything? If no one is going to hold their feet to the fire and demand in no uncertain terms that the mechanics of the proposed system be positively demonstrated to be of any value over what is used presently, then what these noises in the mass media are is nothing more than asserted pronouncements by the 'effete elite' (with apologies to Spiro T. Agnew), to seem relevant, in an atmosphere that demonstrates that most all law that pretends to work, is becoming increasingly irrelevant The only laws that really work are or two varieties: the ones that punish those who violate other's liberties, and the extreme absolute laws which mandate death for every infraction. -- [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--\ [=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. [APIT .50) [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--/ ET -- My suggestion is that everyone visit their MP and mention how useless the handgun ban has been, and pose the question how a national register of legal guns is going to help stop a crime problem involving the use of guns that are illegal. You might also express your concerns to the FCC. My concern is that a national register will be counter- productive, because it will only take one crooked firearms licensing officer for every criminal to know where all the legally held guns are, whereas by contrast a national register will be next to useless in solving crimes. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Proofing
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Steve. An inspection of the Oxford Dictionary will confirm that there are no such words as proofed or proofing. An item is sent for "proof" (ie proof of its integrity), when done it said to be "proved" (ie its integrity has been proved), the act itself is "proving" (ie proving its integrity or otherwise) Keep up the good work Bob Blake Steve, Bob, Once is never enough: The American Heritage Dictionary, (V4.0) - PROOF (see note at PROOFED) proof (prf) n. Abbr. prf. 1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true. 2. a. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions. b. A statement or an argument used in such a validation. 3. a. Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability. b. The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence. 4. Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof. 5. Law The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence. 6. The alcoholic strength of a liquor, expressed by a number that is twice the percentage by volume of alcohol present. 7. Printing a. A trial sheet of printed material that is made to be checked and corrected. Also Called proof sheet. b. A trial impression of a plate, stone, or block taken at any of various stages in engraving. 8. a. A trial photographic print. b. Any of a limited number of newly minted coins or medals struck as specimens and for collectors from a new die on a polished planchet. 9. Archaic Proven impenetrability: "I was clothed in Armor of proof" John Bunyan adj. 1. Fully or successfully resistant; impervious. Often used in combination: waterproof watches; a fireproof cellar door. 2. Of standard alcoholic strength. 3. Used in proving or making corrections. v. proofed proof*ing proofs v. tr. 1. Printing a. To make a trial impression of (printed or engraved matter). b. To proofread (copy). 2. a. To activate (dormant dry yeast) by adding water. b. To work (dough) into proper lightness. 3. To treat so as to make resistant: proof a fabric against shrinkage. v. intr. 1. Printing To proofread. 2. To become properly light for cooking: The batter proofed overnight. [ Middle English prove, preve from Anglo-Norman prove and from Old French prueve both from Late Latin proba from Latin probEre to prove; See prove ] proofer n. Prove: prove (prv) v. proved or prov*en (pr2vn) prov*ing proves v. tr. 1. To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence. 2. Law To establish the authenticity of (a will). 3. To determine the quality of by testing; try out. 4. Mathematics a. To demonstrate the validity of (a hypothesis or proposition). b. To verify (the result of a calculation). 5. Printing To make a sample impression of (type). 6. Archaic To find out or learn (something) through experience. v. intr. 1. To be shown to be such; turn out: a theory that proved impractical in practice. Phrasal Verbs: prove out 1. To turn out well; succeed. [ Middle English proven from Old French prover from Latin probEre to test from probus good; See per 1 in Indo-European Roots.] prov1a*bil2i*ty or prov2a*ble*ness n. prov2a*ble adj. prov2a*bly adv. prov2er n. Usage Note: Proved is actually the older form of the past participle; proven is a Scottish variant that was first introduced into wider usage in legal contexts: The jury ruled that the charges were not proven. Both forms are now well established in written English as participles: He has proved (or proven) his point. The claims have not been proved (or proven). However, proven is more common when the word is used as an adjective before a noun: a proven talent. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-US Right-To-Carry Laws
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This first bit is really directed at ET: - would you agree that the US right-to-carry laws are in fact providing the US State and Federal governments with a list of those most likely to use ANY arms at all to defend themselves with against ANYONE - which includes for example the US government? --rest snip-- Steve, Norman, To tell you the truth, I don't really care if they know what I have, and when. Because, if the bloody SOBs come around to collect anything in the way of arms, they'll get them -- one round at a time, and in all likelihood, they'll be one less subscriber to Cybershooters. Promise me you won't cry over spent ammo, okay? I'm certainly not by myself in this matter, and there is a network building among quite a few people I associate with who are shooters also, to the extent that if anything transpires regarding confiscation of legally held arms, the matter will be broadcast far and wide, rather quickly, through several mediums. Yes, the State of Washington knows of what pistols I have purchased through FFL dealers. They know not a thing of the arms I have purchased otherwise. Do I care? A little, but if push comes to shove, and the Jackboots are ordered to play collection, then my suspicions will have been validated. The whole idea of collecting the data on pistols was that the it would be on file for forensics. Care to guess how many investigations were solved using that data? Care to guess why the data is still collected? Up until about 10 years ago, I didn't possess a Concealed Pistol License (Washington has a CPL, as opposed to a Concealed Carry Weapon -- CCW, as with some other states -- we used to). I didn't always carry a firearm with me as I do now. I didn't need to, as I was in the US Navy until 1988. When I left, I started to carry one in various situations -- depending. It was suggested to me, by an acquaintance who is a LEO, that I should cover my butt, and it was hinted at rather strongly that having that nanny state permission slip would reduce the chances of lawyer's fees and court time, not to mention spending time in the pokey while proving myself a citizen in good standing. Many, and I do mean many, sheriffs and police officers have the need to carry that slip as well. Most do. Some don't, and that is their business. I have made several suggestions to the State of Washington concerning why it should simply dispense with its license. I have been heard, and whether what I have suggested will be acted upon remains to be seen. As to your inference that the licences are being issued as a means of guessing who would use an arm in defence of one's self, allow me this: In the final analysis, it really doesn't matter who has and who has not got a license, as there are more people who carry a pistol without a license than those who do. I can vouch for this as the number of my acquaintances grows, I find that the ones who do have a permit is a very much smaller number than those who do not. I sometimes contemplate this as I travel about. Most of them would not lift a trigger finger to assist another person not of their family, as that would expose their possession. They feel that everyone is on their own in this mess. And then there is that question of how many Americans own regular hunting rifles. And other rifles. Check this out: almost all of the women shooters I know got their rifles from a private sale. Virtually none of them is recorded anywhere. And, having applied for a hunting license does not in the least infer possession, as some people rent their hunting arms. Yeah, they know I have something, but they don't come close to knowing anything about what is really 'out there'. Oh, and it is understood by the powers that be, that if 'push does comes to shove', that all hell will break loose trying to play a stupid game. That's one of the reasons for the perennial play in the mass media about firearms: They want to convince even the devout liberals that it is in their best interests to register their arms. Not a chance here. Stupid is as stupid does. This matter is like hair: you can comb it any way you like. But at the end of the day, it's all about nothing but looks. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-UN Antis bleat about civilian arms sales
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rights groups slam big powers over UN arms meeting By Irwin Arieff Steve, For those who are interested, this will put a face on your enemy: http://www.ryerson.ca/itm/wcukier.html -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-Shops flout teenage knife law
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be missing something here. I understand why it is illegal to SELL children knives, cigarettes, alcohol etc, but why is not illegal for under age individuals to BUY or attempt to buy these articles? My wife worked for some years in a newsagent's shop, and suffered abuse and threats from underage individuals when she refused them cigarettes, lighter fuel and other solvents. Why is the burden of responsibility placed on the supplier, with as far as I am aware no such onus placed on the buyer to comply with the age restrictions imposed by law? Can anyone throw any light on this? regards Martin Kay Steve, Martin, I think it has something to do with old English law having to do with the age of majority, and the ability to be able to make informed decisions, as well as having to do with corrupting the morals of a minor. That an agent or and assign is deprived under law from dispensing certain things to minors, is relevant in that the edict: Minor ante tempus agere non potest in casu proprietatus nec etiam convenire; differetur usque aetatem; sed non cadit breve. A minor before majority cannot act in a case of property, nor even agree; it should be deferred until majority; but the writ does no fail. Black's Law Dictionary -- Sixth edition. Chalk it up to the state attempting to take care of the children, by transferring the guilt of both parties to one party only. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-police weapons
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, Richard, In the matter of 'illegal weapons', allow me to comment: First, it is hideous that any nation would be a signatory to such an accord and proceed to employ any of those prohibited item to be used against its own citizens. We've discussed this once before on Cybershooters. Second, this whole idea was meant to be humanitarian. Well, what's going to happen when one of the waring parties decides to take advantage of the convention? Example: let's suppose for a moment that the Chinese Army decides to over run a nation. And, let's suppose the Chinese Army tells its soldiers not to assist its own wounded, but rather leave them to the enemy to care for. Now imagine the logistical nightmare of all those wounded soldiers of both sides being cared for by only one side. A wounded soldier is just as deadly as a non-wounded soldier: he's only slightly more pissed. Bullets developed by the NATO forces of late are relatively weak sisters to the ones of old. At least a 30.06 or a .308 cal would have the chance of not just wounding, but actually killing your enemy. The .223/5.56mm NATO is meant to only wound. The same goes for the 9mm pistol round, unless you happen to be up close and very unfriendly. I do believe that was the reason for the issue of the .45 cal. to US forces in the Philippines. They were, I believe using .38 cals. at the time. So, what is more heinous: intentionally wounding your enemy with a bullet that was designed to produce an intentionally debilitating and permanent injury -- but not death, or using articles banned from war against your own citizens? And worse yet? Using both of them against your own citizens. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Philosophy aside, 5.56mm and 9mm were designed to kill, and 5.56mm at ranges less than 200m puts a permanent cavity in ballistic gelatin that do not indicate merely "wounding" potential. I have read articles by Peter Kokalis and Chuck Karwan who personally compared 7.62mm and 5.56mm in combat, and the gruesome details of the comparison leave you in no doubt that 5.56mm is very lethal. 7.62mm is more penetrative, but dead is dead. 9mm FMJ is not in the same league obviously, but back when it was invented the entire objective was to kill the enemy. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Charles Clark HAC report comments
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just recieved the following reply from Charles Clark MP regarding the HAC report. Anyone with any doubts that ACPO are behind proposals for restrictions need only read on. --snip-- Steve, Neil, Somebody, or some group, needs to sit down and rebut that load hog wash, point-by-point. Like for instance: [...] The Governments over-riding concern is to ensure pubic safety and we believe that strong controls on firearms are absolutely essential to achieve this. Our firearms controls are already among the strongest in the world, and these new proposals will increase their effectiveness. [...] Okay, the main thought is safety. So, where is all that time and money being spent on the awareness and safety training? How is depriving law abiding people, who by the way, have a safety record far and above the government's in this regard, going to improve safety? And why, above all else, is such an emphasis being placed on one singular item, which happens to have a better safety record than the ownership of other things that have a much greater impact on 'public safety'? If the community of law abiding citizens has proven to everyone their qualifications time and again, and it has been shown that it isn't them whom are the problem, but the miscreants who disregard the laws, then how in the name of the Queen, is depriving those law abiding citizens going to have an impact on the criminals? You cannot 'increase' the effectiveness of something which has been shown not to be effective: laws that prohibit only invite their own demise. [...] The Government recognizes that this is an emotive subject and sought to strike a balance and to target our controls fairly and proportionately. [...] By totally banning an object which you can't control? By treating the law abiding as criminals whenever they seek to comply with the laws? By application of the laws in such an unequal way as to make discovery of just what is and isn't acceptable, a veritable maze that varies from location to location? [...] It is right in principle that anyone who wants to own a shotgun should be able to do so provided that they can demonstrate that they have a good reason. It is not right that shotguns and other firearms should be treated differently, as at present, and the Government therefore proposes to rationalizes the situation, while rot restricting the present range of lawful shooting activities. [...] Yet another attempt at equivocation. One wonders just what deceptive intent was ever engendered by the phrase "good reason". The English Bill of Rights ought be good enough reason for any person who isn't a criminal, or decidedly insane. [...] The Government believes that the ages at which young people should be permitted to handle firearms under varying degrees of adult supervision should be reformed and simplified. However, we do not believe that a lower age limit for young people being taught to handle firearms responsibly under adult supervision would be appropriate or would benefit pubic safety. [...] Hearken! A ray of hope? Did a Cybershooter sneak that one in there somehow? [...] The Government or course is also aware that illegally held firearms and their use in crime is a significant threat to public safety The Government is currently examining a range of measures to support the police in dealing with this problem. [...] Hint: All men are armed with probes of conception. Some men misuse their probes by attacking others with them. Do we outlaw all men's probes because of the few who misuse them, or do we properly punish those whom misuse them? If the concept worked wonderfully before, in the British Isles, then why not now? [...] In seeking to amend our control on firearms, the Government will consult widely with all Interested parties- The Government is grateful for the view of your constituent and will wish to take these into account in deciding how to carry these proposals forward. [...] By all means, please do! However, it should be understood that a (6) person group headed by a person whose initials are 'GMA', should not have the power to trump the total power of all of the shooters whose lives were unfairly and cruelly affected by totally unnecessary and extremely misdirected disaffection, brought about by a self seeking political minority. [...] Te address the second of Mr. Robert's points, I can confirm that we have received representations from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) about long barrelled revolver guns and powerful long-range sniping rifles ACPO have expressed grave concerns about these weapons which we fully understand. We have sought the ad
CS: Pol-more Jack Levin
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Levin says, "If we really wanted to stop this violence, we'd have to make armed camps out of our offices." --snip-- Chris Ferris Christopher C. Ferris Nashua NH USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, Chris, "If we REALLY wanted to stop this violence . . ." That pretty much says it all. Too bad that the last word in most cases is always the last thing tried. Of course, Chris, you also realize that the control freaks would never allow such a thing, certainly not in that teaming socialist enclave south of your border, as that would invalidate every one of their contentions since the signing of the Constitution. But that's another matter. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-weak rifle loads
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have always used some form of "wadding" (usually polyester dressmaking stuff) on top of light loads in large cartridges. My use of wadding goes back a long way and was centered around preventing the detonation of small charges of very fast burning powders. After reading an article last year that suggested the dangers of detonation were remote to say the least I decided to experiment. --snip-- John (on borrowed email address - please believe me!) Steve, John, That's an interesting thought you have there about detonation. I have always considered that the charge in a cartridge acted pretty much as that in the confined cylinder of an internal combustion engine, and that if the relative physics are the same, then their characteristics should also be the same. In the petrol engine (gasoline), if the spark is too hot, or it the conditions are just so, the whole air/fuel charge will detonate rather that burn from the spark downward, i.e., propagate as a flame front. So, in that regard, if wonder if having the loose propellent ignites somewhere in the middle, or more to the bullet, that it would have the same effect. I hasten to point out, however, that in some ammo made for the SKS, Chinese of origin as I recall, the propellent was in the form of what resembled a twisted double 'pipe cleaner'. Presumably, the end nearest the flash hole started the ball rolling -- literally. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-weak rifle loads
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have always used some form of "wadding" (usually polyester dressmaking stuff) on top of light loads in large cartridges. My use of wadding goes back a long way and was centered around preventing the detonation of small charges of very fast burning powders. After reading an article last year that suggested the dangers of detonation were remote to say the least I decided to experiment. --snip-- John (on borrowed email address - please believe me!) Steve, John, That's an interesting thought you have there about detonation. I have always considered that the charge in a cartridge acted pretty much as that in the confined cylinder of an internal combustion engine, and that if the relative physics are the same, then their characteristics should also be the same. In the petrol engine (gasoline), if the spark is too hot, or it the conditions are just so, the whole air/fuel charge will detonate rather that burn from the spark downward, i.e., propagate as a flame front. So, in that regard, if wonder if having the loose propellent ignites somewhere in the middle, or more to the bullet, that it would have the same effect. I hasten to point out, however, that in some ammo made for the SKS, Chinese of origin as I recall, the propellent was in the form of what resembled a twisted double 'pipe cleaner'. Presumably, the end nearest the flash hole started the ball rolling -- literally. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whilst we are on this subject may I say that I believe that the GCN have the right to be anti-gun, but we have the equal right to be pro-gun AND TO SAY WHAT WE BELIVEVE AND WANT TO THEIR FACES! --snip-- Alex -- I suggested the motorcycle museum, not the NEC! The GCN is not Government sponsored. They do seem to have reasonably competent PR though. Steve. Steve, Alex, Well, do be sure to have people who can represent your cause who won't wilt under fire. I've seen enough of that from men and women here who just are not prepared to face the inevitable trained and hostile proponent of hate. To be able to calmly, cooly, and efficiently tackle every argument with great aplomb is a characteristic that is sorely lacking in all but a few speakers on our side of the argument, because most speakers on the local scene are not practiced enough. The antis almost always employ the emotion card, and they do it very effectively, especially when the debaters are a woman on the antis side, and a man on the pro side. Invariably, they try to make the man appear to look like a some kind of pervert, who could care less about the welfare of the children who are sometimes the targets. In cases like these, where a good woman speaker cannot be availed to, it helps beyond words for a progun speaker to have his own children with him, and maybe a few of their friends whom are shooters as well. You can't believe the effect that having a young person speak lucidly for the cause can have. There are so many times where their welfare is discussed, but their input is not addressed. The antis dare not attack the young person, for fear that it will detract from their position, especially when the young person can out-talk them on the issue. It helps immeasurably for those young people to be well versed to begin with, especially with the facts, and how those facts are misused, and twisted to mean what they are not. When the debaters are women only, then the debate can proceed from the standpoint of real facts. The antis don't talk facts unless it appears to help their side. It helps as well to have a woman who is comely, and whose elocution is a cut above the average. Having the whole family can even do the wonders that the antis will only stutter along trying to effuse their thoughts in a less effective way. The great object here is get this to become a family sport -- as it used to be, and the more family members that get involved the better. This is why you absolutely must endeavor to fill your ranks with women who can speak the issues, clearly, calmly, and be able to take on the hype by exposing it for the crass lie it is. And the more woman the better. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- My suggestion is Prince William, I cannot believe the amount of criticism he has gotten from these anti-hunting nutters. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention USA
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Effective political action also needs to be addressed.( Remember the local campaign that ousted David Mellor ? ) Above all, such a convention would build bridges between individuals and organisations with a view to more united, and effective, action in the future. Comments please. Stuart. -- We did try to have a convention in 1996 as I recall but it went down the pan - --snip-- That doesn't necessarily matter, to be frank, but getting people to lecture on the rights of self-defence and so on I suspect would go down like a lead balloon. Steve. Steve, Stuart, With regards to the last comment, maybe not a talk with that in mind. But, the subject could well be the main topic of a brochure. Reasonably broaching the topic by comparisons to the past of your land and its history, and by logical dissertation, even the guys and gals on the 'other side of the fence' might well be induced to at least sit on the fence, and the fence sitters might well climb down for a closer look. Heck, I see it like this: if all those firearms in the form of shotguns are seen as part of your historic past, and with them is the connection to its honorable and pleasurable pastimes, then the connection holds as well for all those other firearms. If one appeals to the intellect through logic and reason, and reveals that not just one essential part has been trashed in the name of a political theme, then it is a simple matter to make the mental connection that if you can divide the shooting community, you can as well conquer it -- as is the case presently. The case MUST be made that there are only so many positions upon which to fall back upon. If shotgunners see themselves as the only honorable section of the shooter community, they will soon find themselves backed into a corner so confining as to be the last stand -- period. If the last position upon which to fall back is shotgunnery, then it will be attacked and attacked until there are so few of you as to make your pastime a history in the very real sense. If this 'All for me, and to hell with thee' attitude persists, then it could well be the defining mental genre that virtually assures the demise of all shooting -- and a whole slew of other things -- in your nation. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- What we need is a convention where we come up with a single message of "Go out and do this!" Which is what the NRA does in the US, but there is still such a large gulf between field shooters and target shooters I think it will be difficult. Getting everyone who holds a SGC to write to their MP to call for the handgun ban to be repealed is what needs to happen, but I'll be amazed if it ever does. Plus you still (sadly) have people who cling to this sad belief that the Government really isn't after our guns, and if we do nothing everything will be okay, as aptly demonstrated by IG and previously Paul McDermott. However, I'm all for trying. Beats sitting here muttering among ourselves. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-Gun Powder - Rook Rifles
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This from my memory: Rook rifle cartridges were reloaded for economy. --snip-- The primer went in last so you didn't have accidents. --snip-- This is cartridge reloading - for Rook Rifles - as it used to be before and after the Great War. Anyone got any memories to match or complement these? Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Steve, Norm, Norm, I take it by your description above, that the particular cases you employed had their own anvil? Recently, I saw a picture (can't remember where) of a case that had its own projection in the center of the primer well. The reason I ask is that in your discussion you don't mention placing one into the primer or the well. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Primers
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] NO WAY WOULD I ANNEAL USED PRIMERS, YOUR APPLICATION THE USE THEREOF IS OK, BUT REMEMBER PRIMERS ARE SUBJECT TO CONSIDERABLY MORE PRESSURE. IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN SOFT BRASS FLOW UNDER PRESSURE, YOU WON'T DO IT TWICE. PRIMER CUPS NEED TO HAVE A CERTAIN HARDNESS, JUST AS THE CASE HEAD DOES. DON'T EVEN THINK OF IT. Walter. Steve, Walter, Walter, I appreciate your concern -- especially as it is directed at the safety end of the matter. Allow me to assuage some of your fears in the regard as you express them. First the lead-in: In most modern semiautomatic firearms (notice I didn't say all), the firing pin indents the primer for just long enough to set in motion the event, and retracts to a recessed position. In all the bolt action rifles that I have, the pin stays put in the fired position until the bolt is retracted. That being the case, in most rimless cartridges, once the primer has set-off the propellant, the casing actually reacts slightly along with the primer, with the primer reacting first. The primer will, in some cases slightly slip out of the well, but as the case presses up against the bolt, the primer is pressed flush with the case. This is normal, because of the mechanical interference fit the primer is designed for. Indenting the periphery of the case around the primer well in some military ammunition is just a safeguard to prevent the possible expulsion of a primer as the case is ejected. In the more severe cases of a hot load, the primer will exhibit a 'flattened' appearance, along with correspondent damage to the case head, in bolt action rifles. I have not witnessed a case overload in semiautomatic rifle -- yet, and hope never to, since from what I've read tells me that it is a much more 'interesting' event. That said, it is important to understand that point pressure of a firing pin has more pressure exerted per unit area than the pressure of the propellant, because if the propellant did exert a greater pressure, then the primer indent would be very much less evident upon observation. Even in cases where the primer perimeter was flattened by over pressure, as well as with the head of the casing, the primers that I have seen still had a significant indent -- even with a floating firing pin. I suppose it might be considered academic to discuss what the energy levels might be to distort a metal structure in one direction, and then what the necessary energy levels would be to distort it back in the opposite direction. And there is that matter of fatigue to contend with . . . It would make for an interesting experiment to take a fired primer -- still retained in the casing -- and install the case into a modified camber made for this experiment, and then gradually exert a hydraulic pressure to observe when the primer begins to revert in the opposite direction in the area of the pin indent, and continue until the indent was almost nil. One could use drift pin flattened appropriately, attached to a spring tester, as a cheap test, although it would not have the same accuracy as the hydraulic test, it would get one a ballpark figure as to what pressures are involved. Now, I would not consider reusing primer cups on an everyday basis since, as Steve was kind enough to note previously, that their relative abundance at shooter's stores makes the proposition of reusing them less than economic. It is, however, of interest to know that it can be done effectively -- and safely -- if it has to be. Analog: We all know about rubbing two stick together to make fire. But do we do it at all today? If push comes to shove, it pays not to toss out all this knowledge merely because it is deemed iffy at best. Certainly don't tell that to the gun makers in Afghanistan. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Gun Powder
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There was an article in Gun Digest a few years ago about how the guerillas in Afghanistan were making primers out of nitrocellulose film that was a pretty interesting read. Steve. I remember reading a Guns Review article some years ago about people in an arms dealing town in Pakistan scraping off match heads to fill cartridge cases with. Always meant to try it but never got round to it, perhaps one day. Jonathan Laws. Steve, Jonathan, Well, whatever you do, be careful. I have a friend who is missing some fingers as a result of such an 'adventure' from his youth. It seems -- as he relates it -- that he was studiously pulverizing some match heads, in quantities greater than I had ever attempted myself in this endeavor, and the quantity decided to 'go off' at a most inopportune time. When I did these things, for some strange reason I had the presence of mind to do it in 'manageable' quantities, and not in the super amount that he did it. I would guess that it depends on the chemistry of the match. Most experiments I did as a stupid youth, were on the order of nothing more than the size of a firecracker, and the results were no more interesting than a really inferior Roman candle. In other words: a glorified smoke bomb. But, what can you expect from a regular book of paper matches? If I were to make a primer, I'd use the strike head of a safety match, where the greatest amount of phosphorus exits, combined with nitrocellulose. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-deadly doctors
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:stats/gun control Number of physicians in the US = 700,000 Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year = 120,000 Accidental deaths per physician = 0.17 (U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services) Number of gun owners in the US = 80,000,000 Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) = 1,500 Accidental deaths per gun owner = 0.188 (U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms) Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Taken from the Benton County News Tribune on the seventeenth of November, 1999. Please pass this on - you may surprise a lot of your friends! So if gun owners kill doctors will lives be saved??? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Mercy for boy who cut bullies
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The present problem in the UK is that the establishment is getting away with exceeding their authority. For example, IG is happy to state that in his official capacity he does not recognise the RKBA and he gets away with it, except in this discussion group g. Regards, John Hurst. Steve, John, Allow me this: My perception from the past discussions is that IG understands that the current law is indeed in violation of the top law, but because he has sworn an oath to uphold 'the' law, that he is not at liberty to either ignore or condemn 'the' law. And, as he has 'the' law and its unique vagaries to contend with -- as a matter of course because of his oath, that he quite content to do just that, because for him to do otherwise would be to disobey his oath. We've been here before. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Police state marches on
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I do not know what all the fuss is about roadside DNA Tests. Only those who have something to hide have anything to fear. Let me tell you all that the police do not just stop innocent people in this country. Nor do they ever arrest people unless they are quite obviously criminals. You people that criticise the brave and dedicated officers of the law who keep this country safe should be ashamed. -- I assume you're being sarcastic. Steve. Steve, Richard, Yeah, Richard, just how much tongue can you plant into the side of one of your cheeks? chuckle -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Naval Gun Fun
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi! Some interesting things about big naval guns have come to my attention recently. For example: They didn't all elevate up to 45 degrees, thus denying them maximum range. They weren't all capable of firing flat, thus denying them the ability to sink ships at point-blank range. --snip-- Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Steve, Norm, Oh, Norm . . . That is what ballast is for. Chief Engineer: "So, do you really want 45 degrees, Captain? Is your coffee mug safely placed?" Chuckle En route to my last duty station, USS Enterprise, I was surprised to hear that it had run across Bishop Shoals, somewhere off the southern California coast. Seems that there was an A-7E in final approach, and the captain decided to maintain course -- despite the Navigators admonition that dead ahead of the ship was the shoals. Rather than have the A-7 waved-off and do another approach after course change, the old man opted to instead take a chance that the tide was sufficient to allow over-passage. The consideration was that the alternative would have been to launch the tanker A-6, give the A-7 sufficient latitude for more than one pass, upon course set. The bottom edges of the outboard portions of the keel just below the stabilizers (those blade-like structures that run fore to aft at midships to dampen the rocking of a ship) were torn through sufficiently as to cause the ship to momentarily lose stability and immediately slip to one side, in a rather severe list, on the side that had the worst damage. There was an immediate call to all available hands to report to the flight deck, on the opposite side. A friend who was aboard at the time told me that he was in a shower stall at the moment when he was flung towards one side of the enclosure and almost got knocked off of his feet. He said he was thinking that the ship had either hit a lump of hard water, or a sub. (heh, heh. fat chance) He said that it wasn't a moment later that the ship took on a rather steep list, such that he had a terrible time just getting out of the shower. In the consideration that there were two gashes, one on each side of the ship, and that the voids that were breached were meant to be flooded anyway, the voids in adjacent areas were stabilized with flooding to compensate, and the ship returned to Alameda. It subsequently spent the next month and a half in Hunter's Point NSY, at SF, across the bay. Shipyard life is so damned nice . . . not. The Captain lost his command, but was an Admiral a year later. Go figure. Ruin a ship, get advanced. At a future date a few years later, the ship was out doing sea trials for evaluations, and the Captain was advising the crew that everything loose was to be tied down for sure. The ship was push to max (flank) speed. The under water log (device used to measure speed) was only made to measure 40 knots. The indicator (according to the Captain) was bouncing on the peg after less than a minute. It was then that the ship was immediately (as fast as the helmsman can turn that darned brass monster of a wheel) put into a full left turn, and that was followed later by a full right turn. I had my doubts about surviving that day. Ever been side-hill with an off-road vehicle? Severely side-hill? I have a photo that shows the ship at that 40 plus knots, and there is a solid wave of water rushing up the bow three quarters (45 feet). Quite literally plowing water. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Molebdenum
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not convinced moly coating does enhance barrel life, perhaps in certain situations but in my limited experience the only reason for barrel life being increased is because moly coating seems to reduce muzzle velocity, which must mean less pressure inside the barrel. Steve. Problem is, you have to burn more powder to recover that 'lost' muzzle velocity so greater throat erosion. VinceB -- Good point. Steve. Steve, Vince, Reduced muzzle velocity? I'm attempting to analyze the physics of the moment here. If, by lubricating the surfaces of two objects, you achieve a lesser of a velocity of a projectile -- than without the lubricant, and assuming the same charge and projectile weights, then it equates to one of the following: a) you have a greater by-pass of gas around the projectile, b) the friction has somehow actually increased, causing the projectile to really slow down in the barrel, and lessen the total propulsive force along the entire length of the barrel, c) the Molly compound somehow 'moderates' the temperature of the propellent burn, reducing it, and lowering the pressure as result. If as Vince says, that increasing the charge weight would cause an attendant erosion problem, that makes sense, since the initial movement of the projectile would be greater. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- It's a common misconception that moly-coating increases MV. With moly-coating you have less inertia so the pressure build up is less as it takes less effort to get the bullet moving. You end up with a lower peak pressure as a result and therefore you obviously end up with lower MV. I can only speak to .223 which is a high velocity round as that is the only calibre I've chronoed with and without moly coating but it did seem that the moly-coated load was slower. With less inertia you obviously have less throat erosion, but if you then increase the charge you may end up with more! I suspect it is difficult to say for sure, it depends on so many factors, calibre, barrel, bullet and so forth but I doubt moly-coating significantly increases barrel life, or maybe it does but not in the chamber if you want to keep your MV. But then I have read reports in some calibres there is no detectable difference. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Molebdenum
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm no metallurgist, but how it was explained to me is something like this - moisture ( from the chemical reaction of burning powder ) plus molybdenum ( a sulphide ) plus stainless steel can set up an electro-chemical reaction path which causes "crevice erosion" in the stainless steel - this is very noticeable where angular machining has been done ( rifling ) - this was the basic explanation given to me by a surveyor colleague to explain the virtual total destruction of threading and of more than half its 1 3/4 inch thickness, on a six month old marine grade stainless steel bolt - for some reason the nut was not affected. I am now very wary of moly anywhere near stainless. Over to the more scientifically inclined :-) David M ( Sussex ) Steve, David, Rather interesting, that. If the bolt and the nut were of the same alloy composition, then there should not have been significant differences in the corrosion rates, simply because the corrosion cell would have been common to both components. A corrosion cell is set up on a metallic surface where there is sufficient moisture able to linger, and oxygen. The moisture will after a fashion begin to obtain sufficient components to make up an electrolyte. If both components were at the same potential electrically, then it is possible that the nut may have had more nickel than the bolt, or as the last article below infers, the nut was passivated. The is also the aspect of thermo-galvanic corrosion, as it might be applied to firearms, under that heading below. Galvanic corrosion is the most common type of corrosion where metals are concerned. Some reading here is in order. Check these out. http://www.corrosionsource.com/learningcenter/galvanic.htm http://www.diveweb.com/maritech/features/uw-su99.01.htm http://www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/masnotes/corrosion.html http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Aircraft/galvdefi.htm http://www.caloritech.com/catalog/page202.htm http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/html/galcorr.htm http://www.kelleytech.com/bulletins.html?article=2912 Thermo-galvanic corrosion: http://www.alu-info.dk/Html/alulib/modul/A00109.htm http://webmall.ucbiz.com/power/contents/dictionary/dictionary.htm -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-antiques
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The thing with .50s is that your average .50 Sharps is an antique, and antiques don't require licenses. Steve. Steve, In relation to that, is it legal to re-barrel one of those? Further, may you remanufacture a receiver or other part that is worn? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Erm, that's a good question. You can legally restore antiques but I'm not sure at what point they would cease to be an antique and require a license. I think it unlikely you could rebarrel it and replace the receiver and still call it an antique. It depends on how the court sees it. I suspect the police would consider replacement of any major component as reason for it not to be an antique. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.50s
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The problem with Section 1(4) is that it says available in significant numbers. Well no firearm is available in significant numbers except maybe .22s and 12 Gauge shotguns. What is a "significant number"? I suspect we will know shortly. Steve. Steve, So, you want a definition of "significant numbers"? Well, that's easy: Everything that wasn't banned the last time, and will be the next time. Only the next time there won't be any money to give out, or the powers that be will just give you a rain check that will be conveniently ignored. Of course then there will be a significant number of irate prior firearms owners. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Well if the judge uses logic, then I would say only firearms that have been available in single digits could be not "significant numbers" because there are so few legally possessed centrefire rifles in this country that any particular subset of them would be a very small number indeed. There are some 350,000 Section 1 firearms held on FACs, the overwhelming bulk of which are .22 rifles. Exclude them and you're down to around 150,000 already. If you say 0.1% of that is a "significant number" that's only 150 guns. If you exclude .22, .38/357, .44, .223, 7.62mm and 12 Gauge shotguns from the 350,000 total I reckon it would be a pretty small number of guns, nearly all of which would be calibres like .270, .243 and 7mm-08. The thing with .50s is that your average .50 Sharps is an antique, and antiques don't require licenses. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Illegal for Children to Play with Toy Guns
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The beginning of this story is bad enough - but read it to the end to find out just how ludicrous these anti-gunners can be. Mike P Steve, Mike, And, this was my input: Dear Editor, Re.: http://www.post-trib.com/news/story4/index.html Well, I'm flabbergasted! --snip-- Well, how about that? They called to verify my data prior to consideration for publishing it. Now, maybe if some of you Brit folks were to send them a letter as well on the same subject, just think what impact that might have, coming as it would, from across the other side of the great pond. Just a thought here. Every little drop helps fill the bucket . . . -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Knives
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary a penknife is "A small folding knife, especially for carrying in the pocket." --snip-- And it would not be unreasonable for the man in the street to turn to dictionary for information to help him understand the meaning of things - would it? --snip-- Pete -- I don't make this crap up, I just report it. The Isle of Man actually has a statute differentiating lock knives and penknives. Steve. Steve, Pete, So, one wonders how long it will be before a knife must have a certain amount of some part of metal. I say that in the consideration that materials tech will surely produce a substance just as hard, and as tough as steel, yet have no metallic signature. Then what? I wonder just what it was the induced this particular set of statutes, such that a knife may not have a locking blade. Is not a blade a blade? Who the blazes cares whether it locks in place? What is the point in that? Hell, why not dictate that all blades must be pink? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- This coming from a guy who lives in a country that banned plastic guns and requires toy guns to have red plugs in the barrel. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Driving on the PROPER side...
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If my information is right the first 'real' aircraft carrier was HMS Furious (15th Aug 1916) a converted cruiser. According to a photo I have the 'island' was forward and in the center. You took off over the bows and landed over the stern. The other contender is HMS Ark Royal (1914)with aft superstructure you took off over the bows and landed in the sea to be taken on board by crane. regards Alex Steve, Alex, Well, Alex, I am not an accredited historian -- yet. However, the source I am about to quote is, as they say, unimpeachable: http://www.history.navy.mil/download/car-1.pdf It seems that the first carrier 'launch' was from USS Birmingham, and the first 'recovery' was on USS Pennsylvania. However, in the name of 'aircraft carrier' the Brits (damnit) seem to have had the upper hand in the innovation. So, okay, Alex, you get a free 1/4 keg of Hale's ales, or an equivalent amount in bottled brew whenever you happen to visit this part of the 'former colonies'. Go ahead, look for me, I dare ya! chuckle If you happen to be in this part of the US, drop me a line, and I'll fill that stein of yours for as long as you can down'em -- guaranteed!. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Illegal for Children to Play with Toy Guns
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The beginning of this story is bad enough - but read it to the end to find out just how ludicrous these anti-gunners can be. Mike P Steve, Mike, And, this was my input: Dear Editor, Re.: http://www.post-trib.com/news/story4/index.html Well, I'm flabbergasted! And that's putting it mildly. Of course, I'm from the state of Washington, and that might explain a something to some people. While 'surfing' the Internet a bit ago, I came across the story referenced above. After reading it, I sat back a moment and considered the impact of the decisions made by the elected officials of that town. Imagine, I thought to myself, that a town was about to tell the parents of children just how to raise them. No toys of a certain sort, no play of a certain type, no thinking in a certain way. Just do as we say, or else. It's the 'or else' part I don't like. I thought this was America, where you had freedom of choice, where you were free to choose, and if 'YOU' made the wrong choice, then the courts were made to be availed to, in order to set wrongs right. How dare they? How dare parks officials decide to set the limits of citizen acts merely because they _think_ they have the power to? Where do they get their power from? The citizens, of course. So, how can they tell the citizen what to do? From whence do they proscribe the limits of freedom? There are two distinct Constitutions which the citizens of Indiana may appeal: that of their state, and the US Constitution. The latter being the law of the land -- Art. VI, º2. At least one guarantees that all the citizens have certain rights that cannot be run roughshod over, merely because some highfalutin power besotted majority in city hall feels the need to pass a bit of 'feel good' legislation in order to give their supporters the idea that they did 'something' to address a certain 'problem'. If there is a problem, it is that certain people want to control the acts of everybody else -- regardless. That is the real problem. If there is a solution to be had, it is that government is the supposed to 'educate' the people as to what their rights are, and what the responsibilities are in that regard. Making laws isn't the solution. Informing the citizen of responsibilities is the real solution. But placing limits on everybody's liberties because of the acts of a few less responsible citizens is heinous, because it says in effect that no citizen is responsible enough to decide for himself what is right. If that indeed the case, then the citizens in city hall, and the parks commission are declaring themselves to be gods. So, who is really right here? E.J. Totty Everett, Washington -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Bill of Rights
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "John Hurst", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- Page 75 quotes the case of Bowles v. Bank of England confirms that the Bill of Rights remains an operative statute BTW. Page 10 contains the following passage; "The underlying purpose of firearms legislation in the UK is to control the supply and possession of all rifles, guns and pistols which could be used for criminal or subversive purposes while recognising that individuals may own and use firearms for legitimate purposes...". --snip-- Steve, John, Please -- once again -- forgive my apparent ignorance in the matter of how your Parliament makes law, but it seems rather absurd that a piece of legislation quotes a case of what we refer to here on this side of the big pond as 'settled law', and then proceeds to embark on a course of retrograde action. To wit: if the purpose of said legislation is what is stated, then what is the intent of implying that it is no longer a valid position? If the law worked before the fact such that the case law supported the contentions of the law prior, then what has changed? What I am asking is, if the law as initially enacted, was thought proper in all of its range of restraints, and has in its history of enforcement not produced a conflict with the court as regards the abilities of the citizens, then can not the current restrictions be challenged as to validity due to the merely spurious infractions of but a few actors? Is there not a premise in law that allows you to challenge a law that acts against the citizen without reason? And, cannot the 1920's set of restraints be challenged as well on the grounds that the inferred threat is no longer present? It seems to me that if the purpose of the 20's enactments were valid for that period, and since that threat is no longer valid, then the purpose for retaining the law is no longer valid either. It has merely served as a heinous foundation upon which to enact yet more prevarication denying the citizen a protected right. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Stop or I'll chant!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The point I have tried to make, with a severe lack of success, is that some restrictions are necessary, unless you want the likes of Mr Kleasen and every other psycopathic criminal on the country wandering around tooled up to the eyeballs. Who would you rather make the decision on suitability? Are you in favour of a total lack of control? --snip-- Steve, IG, Butting in here (something I'm good at), allow me to state that at the other end of the spectrum, some of us have tried -- unsuccessfully -- to convince you of the fruitlessness of most controls. Control works, when it is applied in the manner it was intended to operate at: the citizen level. If the laws of carriage possession are such that the only persons deprived of a right are those who are under a legal disability, then it is only them who are subject to the law, and not everybody else. Therefore, if one is deprived by law from possession and/or use, then it is only they whom the police and the forces of government have the rightful authority to assess of a breach of the law. What has been hinted at, plainly stated, over-stated, and run into the ground, is that the laws as they currently stand affect only those citizens (you know, the famous law abiding ones?), who are willing to undergo the rigors of proving one as being suitable. The criminal will never obey the law. But you know that. So, what good is a law that oppresses the lawful citizens, makes them jump through hoops and endless waits, while the criminal merely thumbs his nose at the law, and takes advantage of the disarmed, lawful citizen? Where in heaven, or on earth, is the logic in that? You people already KNOW who the criminals are, so why the heck are you torturing the law abiding citizens with the mindless, and worthless nonsense that is your law? Every time you run a citizen through that wringer, you already know what their status is. They have not broken any law of consequence. So what is the real essence of what you do? How much clearer can this get? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-'National maturity'
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to earlier comments, I have indeed lived abroad, I travel very widely and have by now made more trips to the US than I can accurately count. Nor are these thoughts anything very new. Fact is, they're Americans and we ain't, and that's all there is to it. The respective attitudes are not remotely interchangeable. If there's any more travelling to be done, it's most likely our US cousins who need to be doing it, in order to check out the cultural environment this side of the water. The long-suffering 'IG' is right - at present, US considerations are largely irrelevant to the firearms issue over here, though if the 'Americanisation' of society being so enthusiastically pursued by New Labour continues indefinitely, this could conceivably change. Nick Steadman Steve, Nick, Culture is culture. It remains that no matter where you may find yourself, the safest modus operandi is to always presume that danger lurks. In my travels about the European continent, I was careful to note that there are places which are safe in one part of the day, and of great danger in the darker hours. It was usually in places where the police presence was greatest that criminal element was of the greatest concern. And, additionally, there is safety in numbers. I seldom ventured out after dark in any city, without a local companion, or a travelling companion. What happens, and happens frequently to those who are not 'locals' and who venture by themselves in the cities, after dark is notable. True, in most places of most countries, you are very safe, and the need of an arm with which to offer defence to an attack is statistically small. The same goes for just about anywhere in the USA. But, I hasten to add, that merely because one is safe in most places, it does not effectively extrapolate that carriage of an arm is a waste of time. I will avail myself to an equally valid and justifiable analog: the automotive seat belt. I might neglect -- on a frequent basis -- to strap myself in. But what of that freak accident? What if I had strapped my butt to the seat? Would I still be unhurt? Not unlike helmets for motorcycle drivers and riders. I decry the law mandating the wearing of something, in the same way that I would decry the law mandating the carriage of a firearm. But if you get tossed off the bike -- as I did in March of this year -- and land smack on your head, as I did, after being struck by an automobile that was accelerating past 25 mph, you have no one to blame for the attendant head injuries. I luckily survived rather unscathed, save for massive bruising in various places as a result of practicing the art of flying without wings. My stout stature must be the combination of British Isle genes and some unique Amerindian ones as well. I was told that I flew, and bounced, rather neatly. As usual, I had on my full-face helmet, and was wearing leather, as I always do, even in the oppressive heat of summer. One never knows, if you get my drift? Now, Nick? That yours and the other cultures of the Euro land mass are suffering a sort of cultural dilution, isn't to be blamed upon anyone. People imitate for various reasons. If the strength of the upbringing of some people's children isn't sufficient enough to counter bad -- or other influences, then who's to blame? If it is merely some kids suffering the affectations of a rather faddish and passing subculture, imagine how we feel when we see teenagers with those outlandish punk styles that originated 'over there' grin. Americans are not a uniquely violent sort. It just seems that way because of the mass media, and the movie industry. Need I remind you of the 'cowboy westerns'? I guarantee you that traffic assaults and tempers are just as bad in some places in Italy and France, as any as you might witness in the US. That they seem to be worse and more frequent, is -- I remind you -- purely a result of the massive and repetitive reporting that is done. That there are the dolts, soft headed, and lame brained who brandish firearms in the incidents of such fracas', is to be expected with the understanding that we are a freer nation in most instances. Yes, that kind of display is despicable, and it a rather rare event. I can virtually _guarantee_ you, that if your nation were as free -- in the regards to the possession of firearms as is mine, that your nation (never mind Italy or France) would experience the same thing, in perhaps the same ratio of per capita. You neglect to also consider that the US -- as no doubt the UK of late -- has a very much greater dispersion of other cultures, and the attitudes that are common to those cultures. There will inevitably be the conflicts and clashes that produce the results that you hear about. The only thing mi
CS: Misc-Columbine
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is an interesting series of articles on Columbine. http://www.usatoday.com/hphoto.htm --snip-- Kenneth Pantling Steve, Kenneth, I went looking, and came up with this gem: http://www.usatoday.com/news/digest/nd1.htm Check it out. Okay, class, listen up, I really hate repeating myself. I love the figure bandied about: Quote - "One in four youths has used a gun or knife or has been in a situation where someone was injured by a weapon in the past year, according to a large national study of adolescents." Unquote. First, and absolutely foremost, is that the rabidly anti everything -- but mostly anti firearms -- CDC was responsible for that load of crap. Please c-r-i-t-i-c-a-l-l-y evaluate that quote above, and understand that it is so loaded as to be worthless. It virtually gives the impression -- by the mentioning those dread 'guns' as the FIRST item in the list of very bad things -- that GUNZ are a big problem. This American culture has been so traumatized by the sensitivity awareness over this issue of firearms, that the mere mention of firearms in any but the most positive context is sure to raise eyebrows. Totally unstated, and left to your imagination is the following: Of the 25 percent, what indeed was the reason and context for using a firearm or a knife? Was it in a positive experience? Was it lawful? What indeed was the connection? Just because 25 percent of those polled answered in the affirmative doesn't mean a damned thing, unless the connection to what it was used for is also stated. Merely allowing a tagalong comment in what appears to be an adjunct statement, is the most deceptive way of coloring intent. What weapon was used in the past year? Nothing is stated in terms of a breakdown by what the 'weapons' were. It could well have been fists and feet for all we know. "One in four youths has used a gun or knife OR has been in a situation . . ." They either used a gun or a knife, OR -- NOT AND -- they were in some kind of situation. Well, the IF the purpose was violence, why the OR comment, and not an AND statement? What a load of crap. So, let's play their stinking game. Let's suppose the guns and the knives were part of the violence mix. What part of the 25 percent were actually the gun and/or knife crowd? Maybe 2 percent? Maybe .5 percent? Maybe something so damned statistically insignificant that it isn't worth actually mentioning for fear that the real problem will expose itself: ersatz truth. Lumping statistics is a favorite tactic of the anti crowds. Your homework: Go read the full article, and pick it apart. Bring the real meat back to class to morrow, leave what's left in the trash. I don't expect to see much -- if any -- meat. Class dismissed. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-United Airline employee convicted of gun thefts
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] United Airlines Employee Sentenced for Theft of U.S. Mail And Sale Of Stolen Guns, Reports U.S. Attorney --snip-- Let me get this straight, some poor guy in Tallahassee gets five years for buying a gun he thought he could legally own, submitting himself to a background check, and they get every Fed in Massachusetts on this guy who steals eight guns and he gets two years and three months? Steve. Steve, N.L., Nobody said that there was any 'proportionality' in the law, they only said that there was a law. All this, you understand, in the name of 'getting tough' on 'gun crime'. As if there was any difference in stealing a firearm as opposed to something else from the mails. This is what happens when the law is perverted to serve a vile purpose. Not unlike 'hate crimes' legislation. I wonder what it feels like to hit the bottom of the politics barrel? -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-.458
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's a gunsmith in Austria who makes revolvers in .458 Winchester Magnum, there was a review in Internationales Waffen Magazin. Presumably he makes them for novelty value. I personally wouldn't fancy shooting top loaded .458's out of a revolver! (Wouldnt mind watching someone else do it tho) I bet he doesnt sell many! Can anyone think of a use for a .458 win mag revolver? IG -- Well, it would seem a good candidate for a slightly longer barrel, going by the picturesG. Steve. Steve, IG, Oh man, I can't believe this! Heck, there's a company that makes a pistol that shoots .50 BMG. They -- until recently had a picture of a gal shooting it. And you chaps are complaining about a .458? Geez, really! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- But that's a single shot isn't it? This is a revolver. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Stop or I'll chant!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you lawfully hold a firearm for, say, shooting deer, there is absolutely nothing wrong in using it for self defence in the home PROVIDED that: It is the minimum force required in the circumstances. It is proportional to the perception of the threat at the time. The full circumstances are such that it is reasonable. Let me state an example... You come face to face with an intruder, who is armed with a knife and threatens you with it. You are able to reach your firearm, and in turn, threaten the intruder with it, who surrenders and is arrested by the police. (yes, your initial actions are an arrest, I know.) No problem. Lets examine this scenario, under the presumption that if my firearms are kept to the conditions on my firearm certificate, which states on the certificate, in Para. 4(a) ; --snip-- Steve, Tim, Loved it Tim! Here's my choice scenario: Burglar breaks in making a considerable bit of noise. Home owner awakens and shouts: "Ho! I have firearms securely locked away, and I am about to look for the keys! You are forewarned to depart the premises!" The burglar, thusly warned, shouts back: Ha! Looser! While you are rummaging around for those keys, I shall make myself at home with some tea and crumpets!" Home owner fumbles interminably with the keys, cussing loudly all the while, and finally manages to get one in the first lock. He shouts "Yo! Scumbag, your time is short! I have but one key to insert and twelve combination locks to twist, and your butt will thence be mine!" The burglar, having feasted upon several tasty crumpets, a few pots of tea, a leg of lamb, and some whiskey, manages the following, with a half full mouth: " Yeah, sure, Ya Betcha!" The home owner is now in the home stretch, working on the last combination, and yells out: "Time is short, scumbag! I'm a-coming real soon!" The burglar, now fully sated upon food and drink, and works rummaging through the house, yells: "That's what you said an hour ago, turkey!" The home owner, finally manages to liberate a single shot (only one legal now) shotgun, and runs down stairs to accost the burglar only to find him in the arms of his wife, both of whom seem totally oblivious to his presence. The home owner calls 999 (911 if you are in the US) and is promptly arrested for employing intimidating tactics with a firearm (we'll get around to quoting the appropriate law later). -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Tea and crumpets? Don't take up script writing! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Stop or I'll chant!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] :::Fair enough but would you apply this logic to other objects that, if misused, could severly endanger the public. For instance motor vehicles or matches? Yes, certainly. There are some people that shouldnt be allowed anywhere near either of the above. My wife being one of them, in the case of cars anyway. Probably matches, too, if she reads this. IG Steve, IG, Quick, IG, what's her e-mail address? smirk -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-drugs
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Many addicts with access to legal diamorphine (or morphine, or cocaine, or whatever) have lived useful, productive, happy lives without a great deal of damage to themselves and with absolutely none to society. My guess is that history will judge the proscription of (some) drugs that we have now in much the same way that we think about the witchcraft laws. jd -- Oh, it's the way it's marketed for sure, what annoys me is when people think that it is the user's own stupid fault etc. Drug dealers are con artists. They pick on young people because they know they are naive, and the increase in heroin use among young people is staggering. In Walsall ten years ago it was virtually unknown in my experience, but go into town during lunch time now and it's "spot the smackhead". --snip-- The solution as far as I'm concerned is legalise all the Class B drugs and slap a life sentence on anyone caught dealing Class A drugs on the second offence. Steve. Steve, John, In either case of the above, there is that element of the citizen accepting, or being made to accept self-responsibility, and accountability. Children can be somewhat excepted from this rule, but it still begs the question of control. Presuming for a moment that if there were almost complete legalization, with access only through pharmaceutical outlets, and with a price structure that would effectively compete the black market out of existence, then the criminal element is forced to move on to greener pastures. If a junkie knows that a fix costs less, has guaranteed quality, and can access clean medical supplies without the hassle of arrest, then guess where he will go? No threats, no hassles, no need to be part of a crime scene, no fear of compromise, no aspect of blackmail, no furtive forays to seek drugs. In short: no criminality. It also effectively guarantees the 'authorities' of an accurate assessment of drug use in the nation, and even where it might be centered. It doesn't take much to extrapolate the US experience with alcohol prohibition to what all of us are now experiencing in our respective nations with psychoactive substances. If it can be accomplished with alcohol, it can certainly be done with other drugs. To blanket prohibit anything literally invites it to be a subject of black market interests. I agree that addiction is a vile and cruel malady, but it is better to have -- in my mind -- someone who is an addict who obtained the substance from a source of known accountability, and be able to say with a certainty that that person exists in the community, than to have any substance awash in that same community having no standards or controls for purity, and not be able to quantify usage, and identify the addicts much beyond when they become incapacitated or victims in the sense of the several aspects that result of the addiction, the most prominent of which is crime. It used to work at one time. One wonders what the real motive was that created the morass we experience. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- Sorry ET, but I'm convinced the libertarian view is this instance is complete nonsense, because of what I said previously about economics. Heroin is already inexpensive so it hardly matters about where the supply comes from, the only way to stop the supply is stop the dealers (same theory as gun crime really, get the criminals rather than the guns). If you have inelastic demand, then the price will be whatever it is, and you will still have addicts, you will still have addicts committing burglaries to feed their habit, you will still have monumental health costs associated with treating them all. You only have to look at what has happened in Switzerland, they took a laid back view and now they have the highest proportion of heroin addicts in Europe, 5% of the population and their health care costs because of it have skyrocketed. Finally they have decided to crack down on it. There is a reason the Chinese went to war to stop the English from shipping the stuff in to China. Heroin and crack cocaine (or rather amphetamines cooked up like cocaine) are extremely addictive and cause serious health problems, vastly worse than alcohol or tobacco. I've seen it happen with too many people. For example, a lot of girls take heroin to lose weight. Not only that, but Walsall has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the EU, and a lot of girls in the area binge on heroin to cause miscarriages. And so it goes. We've had burglaries at our premises by heroin addicts who are so desperate that they cut themselves getting over the spikes on the gates, and then literally punch through the glass and grab whatever they can steal, blood everywhere. Rational people, even criminals don't do that. Steve. Cybersh
CS: Misc-drugs
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] ""Are you implying that we have a law regulating the MISUSE of drugs? --snip-- I've had friends use recreational drugs in the past, and I can tell you that this is a prime example of prohibition causing more problems than it ever solves. --snip-- -- I totally agree with you John, there are so many people in Walsall who have gotten onto heroin the way you describe that it is exceptionally hard for anyone to convince me that marijuana and ecstacy should remain illegal. --snip-- Also clearing out the jails of people convicted of growing marijuana would make space to keep the smack dealers in for much longer periods of time. Steve. Steve, John, Well, if you were to go the complete run and re-legalize the whole group of drugs that are currently outlawed, and merely make them obtainable by signature at a local apothecary/pharmacy or what have you, then the government would have a real idea as to the dimensions of drug use within the community -- something they have no idea of now. And, if every item were packaged with a description of the actual effects upon the body that the substance will have, as well as the long term effects, that could serve as a restraint. And, instead of playing the current lock'em up game, it would be a much better use of funds to simply have treatment centers for those who wanted to kick the addiction. As for the illegal market? If the price is so low that even the most poor could well purchase whatever, then there is no black market. To be sure, there would always be the abusers, but the glamor aspect has been removed. And the caveat of illegal usage: no concurrent activities that would cause others harm. If the price for breaking that law is stiff enough, it would deter the greater number. As you know, there will always be the hard cases. Allow me this: those who become addicted to any substance are pretty much of the same psychology: the aren't sick people, they are looking for an out from something that is bothering them. I you can get them into counseling, you can get to root causes of their dilemma. The general idea of getting young people to stay away from abusive drug use, isn't well thought out. Nobody I know of simply tells them the real story: "Your bodies are still growing, and everything you put into them will have an effect later on in life. When you abuse a substance, you are essentially weakening the building blocks of your life, creating possible havoc later on down the line. Everything in life is momentary except life itself. "Act in haste, regret in leisure". And regret lasts a lot longer than haste." Young people aren't taught to think in terms longer than the shortest spans of time, thus deriving the shortsighted mental attitudes that prevails in almost every culture. But that's another story. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- My personal view based on far too much sorry experience with young people in the local area is that any drug that has seriously harmful effects and is addictive should be banned. But also things like ecstacy and marijuana which at best are only mildly addictive and have mild health effects should be legal. My theory being the one of the lesser of several evils. Driving through some of the council estates in Walsall is an enlightening experience. There are people who live in Blakenhall who have sold the glass and doors out of their council house to buy heroin. People who advocate total legalisation do so on a flawed assumption of economics. I've always said that the problem with libertarianism is that it works great on civil rights, not so well with economics. If a substance is highly addictive, then demand is perfectly inelastic, regardless of price. The higher the price becomes the more crime you have as people attempt to obtain money to buy it. The only way to stop this is to stop people using it in the first place, and that means in part stopping the supply. The other half is to cut down on demand but I don't care how much money they pump into drug treatment, I have seen too many people on methadone one day and smack the next. The problem in many areas is that people simply won't admit they have a drug problem, because everyone around them uses drugs. If you can't get them to admit they have a problem, you can't treat them. So logically the finite resources of the police and Customs should be focused on the most damaging drugs, and the only way to do that is to legalise those drugs which don't do the damage. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-law-abiding?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whatever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? Puzzled a bit by this one. Who said anything about innocent or gulity? Semantics is not a favourite subject, but here we go. --snip-- IG, Go back and read your original comment. It was to the effect that there were no innocent people, only those who were not yet found out. The gist is that the world is full of criminals just waiting to happen. My terrier would rather chase rats than come to me. So I agree, they are good judges. Hope these drugs dogs didn't cock their legs on you tho! Well, all that proves is that your dog sees you as a lesser rat not worth chasing snicker. And, no, those dogs never cocked a leg in my direction. Dogs show respect by deferring to those whom they see as either equals or betters. Dogs don't pee on their friends. In my book, if you ain't under arrest, or being pursued, they you is as legal as legal can be. And no man has any authority to cast doubt upon you without reason. Hold on. In the states, does every arrest lead to a conviction Yippee. I'm on the way!! IG There you go again. Where did I infer that every arrest lead to a conviction? All I said was that if one not under arrest, or under suspicion for an illegal act, that one is free. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-schizophrenia
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's another good read. It might explain more than just a few things. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a1ccaff6e8f.htm -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-law-abiding?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] What constitutes law abiding? Someone never convicted or someone never caught? Steve, IG, Whatever happened to the idea of innocent until proven guilty? Your comment above, IG, either demonstrates your mind set, or the manner in which UK cops think of their fellow citizens. In my little stint working as Security Police in the US Navy, at Whidbey Isl. Naval Air Station, I came across that same kind of mind set, several times, both with the Security Police and the local cops and Sheriff Deputies. It was a kind of 'me against them' thing that operated in those minds 24/7. Nobody was innocent, period. I was the outsider, and even more suspect than most, because I refused to play that game. But then, I also ran the Drug Detection unit . . . They had to pee for me. Not necessarily on command, you understand grin. Hell, even the drug detection dogs were my buddies, and their trainers played hell trying to make them mind. They would come to me before they went to their trainer! Dogs are a good judge of character. In my book, if you ain't under arrest, or being pursued, they you is as legal as legal can be. And no man has any authority to cast doubt upon you without reason. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . Whats a ho-down? Do we need banjo players? IG Steve, IG, Well, actually, it is spelled 'hoedown'. It is a party for square dancing, and other more earthy pursuits. And, yes, the banjo is definitely an instrument that is found at one, including an empty earthen ware jug (the moonshine kind), a scrubbing rack, a fiddle -- or violin, a guitar, one or another of percussion instruments, a really good sense of humor, and most definitely some corn squeez'ins (white lightening). Yeee Haw! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny reality for financial reasons and so do the police. --snip-- Steve, Norman, Neglecting Steve's remarks: Come now, Norman, you are comparing apples and clams. In IG's defence (as if he needed that), the tobacco companies and the tobacco users deserve each other. Anybody who consumes that stuff (and I did for 15 years), in the face of all of the press and evidence which pretty much covered all the ground that needed to be covered regarding health hazards, in quantities that are surely to be deleterious to one's health, deserves to be ignored, and disregarded as a fool. I smoked for 15 years, from the time I was 15 until the age of 30. Amazing (isn't it?) how long it takes one to learn a lesson? Smoking by itself, once or twice a day (which was the usual back a long time ago) isn't considered deleterious to the healthy person. The Ad men did us in by inducing the young and impressionable to go 'whole hog' and do it all the time. Maybe we should sue the ad agencies? I'll let IG answer the other stuff. In all due respect to yourself, the matter is that as Steve has stated. There are some things which are quite beyond one's control. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR ruling
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- The claim for loss of profits pursued in the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) by MPC on behalf of the firerarms retailers and dealers had been declared inadmissible on the grounds that there was not a reasonable expectation that the firearms in question (pistols) would remain permitted to be legally owned by private individuals indefinitely. --snip-- Alex Hamilton -- I don't know but I always thought a suit in the ECJ stood more chance of success than the ECHR anyway. However, I don't understand this ruling because there was more to the suit than just loss of future business. There were gun clubs that were not compensated for the loss of their property for one thing. I have to say this is the most bizarre ruling I have seen, of course there was a reasonable expectation they would stay legal, on that basis no-one would ever start a business if there was an expectation it could be illegal tomorrow. Steve. Steve, Alex, Bizarre ruling? That's an understatement! From the 'sounds' of it, the court seems to be saying it is a foregone conclusion that the private possession of firearms it the EU is slated for elimination. Other than that, the courts ruling is extremely faulted by the mere presence of those same 'pistols' elsewhere' in other EU nations. You guys had better start asking some serious questions in the nations where your pistols are being kept. That ruling stinks to high blue heaven. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- The ECHR is not a creature of the EU, non-EU states have signed the ECHR and the ECHR has ruled on cases that originate in non-EU states. However signing up to the ECHR is a pre-condition of entry to the EU. I thought the argument Guy came up with about the Treaty of Rome being violated made more sense to me. That argument is that Section 5 dealers (of which there are 500) can legally sell (and do, Weller Duftys do it all the time) handguns to other parts of the EU but dealers in the other states cannot sell them here. Thus there is not free movement of goods as required by the Treaty. The problem I see with that argument is that dealers do import handguns for sale deactivated and also to people in Northern Ireland and people who have authority under one of the exemptions in the 1997 Act, but I think it would be interesting to see what the ECJ had to say about the disparate levels of regulation among EU states, they might rule that regulation could only be established with a clear showing that it would enhance public safety or a maximum or minimum standard that gun laws can be in terms of restrictiveness. They might even rule the EU must establish an EU-wide system of regulation that is wholly consistent. The Government would surely argue that the ban on handguns was for public safety reasons that override any trade concern, the problem they would have is that there is no indication of an impact on handgun-related crime so the argument of public safety lacks evidence. However, the reality with all these court challenges is that judges dislike guns just as much as your average MP, so you end up with daft rulings like the one made by the ECHR. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society. I would like to thank you though for starting this discussion, whatever your motives or whether officially sanctioned or not. Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here. IG -- What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least. Statistics for London are reasonably comprehensive. Steve. Steve, IG, S, you guys really did have lots of fun, back in Merry ol' England, didn't ya? grin It was never that way here in the US, even when we wuz a pack of recalcitrant colonies! We were too sexually represses for that kind of fun. Of course, that was back when you guys REALLY knew how to let your hair down chuckle, snort! guffaw!. Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Web Site of interest
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take a look at http://www.kleasen.org.uk Now, I see that a gun club eventually shopped this guy. Good for them. Yes, it was outrageous that the Police gave him a certificate. No excuses there at all. Total incompetence. However, some of the contributors here would consider that it was quite OK for him to have firearms. In particular, Peter Jackson seems to advocate freely available firearms, which would mean that Monsieur Kleasen would be entitled to possess anything he wants. I would be interested in the views of the panel on this charmer. He has, I believe, now been deported back to the country of his birth. I wonder if he is entitled to possess firearms back there? Anyone enlighten me on that one? So many people like to use the American comparison, it would be interesting to know how they would treat this socially inadequate perverted murderer. IG Steve, IG, Minus Steve's remarks, allow me the following. The website ref'd above has some interesting things to say. From what I can determine -- through the 'journalistic fog' that passes as press, it seems that Kleason is some kind of psychotic personality. Okay, you scored one, IG. But I'll tell you this: I have to wonder why it took so bloody long for the various clubs to oust him. Here in the US, in the several loose associations that refer to themselves as 'clubs', all it would have taken is one such threat, and the man would have been history to the group. We don't take threats lightly -- especially where firearms are concerned. And -- a very BIG 'and' at that -- how did that one manage to get any kind of license under your fool proof system? I mean, if as you say that _you_ can detect the bad apples, what was the excuse that time? Sloppy research? Do you guy's let just any moron into your nation? And then have the unmitigated temerity to complain about it?!! Now, in the matter Barton MP Shona McIsaac, I have to say that she is an alarmist, mentioning as she does "Dunblane and Hungerford" as reasons to act like some fluttering ninny when one loose marble is found rolling around. Seems to me that she's a likely a case for a close look. Mind if I ask why a crime camera hasn't been placed appropriately close to her residence? Let's look carefully at your proposition that an armed society would be a dangerous society. I recall that the US was just that at one time, and it was even safer then, than now with the multiple layers of cop, super-cop, ultra-cop, mega-cop (and god knows what other kind of hyphen cop). Imagine that! A country without any firearms laws, and no cops but the county sheriff and his entourage. The US was a pretty peaceful place, until the dullards back east decided it would be a good idea to imitate the Europeans and the Hessian ideal. Why is it, do you suppose, that bad ideas catch on faster than really good ideas? It wasn't until the early 1900's that firearms laws started to cause all manner of problems. Well, actually, as I think about it, it was in the mid to late 1800's with all manner of 'Black Laws' abounding to oppress the slaves and freed slaves. But that's another story, although it is most definitely corollary, since the only people who had trouble with those laws were the one's who were HIGHLY REGULATED under them. Sound familiar? Without the law, there was no problem; whereas with the laws there arose a problem. An armed society is most definitely a polite society. And, a community of few laws is one where there are the least number of law breakers. I wonder why that is? -- Pointing out nutcases who have gotten licenses just underlines what a fallacy the licensing system is, IMO. Doesn't support the argument of regulation one jot. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The Gun Control Network
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have at least two subscribers who are in that constituency, either of you been to see your MP about the ban, chaps? Steve. I can see this as not being a particularly good idea. We may have all the best argumants, but after a community has had something like this happen to it (and I know that sounds very TV "sound bite'ish") you can't expect people from it to judge things in an unbiased way. It's exactly the problem we had in the first instance in that you just can't argue against someone who has had their child murdered by a deramged gunman, it dosen't matter how good your argumants are they just aren't going to accept it and to be honest it perfectly understandable given the circumstances. Jonathan Laws -- I'm not suggesting that they do organise a protest, I just wondered whether their MP was responsive to the argument (which I seriously doubt). Steve. Steve, Jonathan, Let me say this just once, and I won't bother you with it ever again. Your course of action is yours to take in this affair. The frame of mind that you express above is just the one that the GCN is wanting you to take: you have been effectively cowed. They have succeeded in their quest to silence you -- forever. They want you afraid to face the angry parent. That is what their fondest wish is. That is their secret weapon: emotionalism. If you are to win, you need to be an Admiral Nelson in the face of the Armada of lies and half-truths. If you want to overcome this madness, you have to take on this trial of fire and face those parents head-on, in whatever confrontation that may happen. It won't be a pretty sight, but if you can show those people that their children were in effect murdered by the laws of your nation and by the attitudes of the people running the likes of the GCN, then you will have shown them what the real problem is: incompetence on the part of people who were supposed to administer a government program with integrity, and they muffed it supremely, blaming all the innocent firearms owners in the process, and by people who have illogical and whimsical goals. If you can show them that up until the first laws which governed the possession of firearms in your nation that firearms related crime was extremely low, and essentially non-existent, that it is the morass of regulations which have allowed such events to transpire, then you will have opened their eyes to the truth. But you have first to challenge them to know the truth. Hiding inside your house and pretending that it will all go away is not the answer. Confrontation, and exposure of the truth will upend this GCN apple cart. The sooner you get the facts straight, the better. Of course, before you go, it would pay to have all of your facts in order on a pamphlet, and know your arguments by heart. You can expect that the opposition WILL be as well prepared with a pack of lies. To the victor goes the spoils, and the victor does not back down at all. The ball is in your court. Don't let it gather too much moss. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] . I ask on the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police ranks? From the limited reporting of this I have seen one would have to say yes. I think that theft is one of the crimes that the met will accept you after having comitted an offence that could potentially debar you from holding an FAC for life. So theoretically you could be arrested by an armed Met cop who could never legally hold an FAC. Jonathan Laws. Steve, Jonathan, A critique of our times? When the of citizens in a nation are so scandalized by crime, that the remaining number of those qualified to serve in an office of public trust is reduced such that the 'criminal class' must be appealed to in order to sustain the requisite numbers of the 'enforcement class'. How interesting. -- Who wants to be a copper, all those nasty shooters criticising you etc.G Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As there has been so much venom vented on this topic, I would love to know what views the contributors hold on the subject of who should not be allowed to hold a firearm or shotgun certificate. I take it that it is the general consensus that there should be at least some restriction somewhere along the line? I would find it most illuminating to know whether the classes of people I categorise as dodgy are different to anyone else. --snip-- I will not change my opinions on this one. I see them all. You only see some. IG -- The only gun law I have ever really felt is worthwhile is a background check before a person takes possession. Licensing, registration, all the rest of it is largely worthless because once a person has a gun, they can misuse it if they choose. I did submit a very comprehensive paper to the HO outlining a new licensing system, although that was based largely with an eye on the political realities of the situation. --snip If it was intended to protect public safety it would have long since been centralised under a central administration, like virtually everything to do with cars, planes and most other things has. Steve. Steve, IG, Having been here before, I will only say that I agree with Steve. And, IG? You have the laws that you must contend with, as a sworn member of your force. I would not have your job for any amount of money. My personal philosophy on liberty would prevent any such happenstance. If ordered to perform it, I would refuse. It is one of the prime reasons that I would not accept a job in any police force: I could not find myself enforcing laws antithetical to my beliefs. If the laws were simple in the tenets of liberty, then I would have no compunctions. Whatever you do is your own business, but if enough men and women in the police forces were to object to such duties on the grounds that they were objectionable, and accomplished little in the way of reducing crime and added safety, then things might change. And, as Steve commented in an earlier post, by what measure of the law is a man or woman considered 'dodgy'? And, I'd like to ask one simple question: what is so wrong with just wanting something? Is that such a crime? When people are reduced to begging to be able to do something that would otherwise not harm anyone, you really have to wonder just what is next. Know what I mean? As for myself, I intend to be a large roadblock on the way to hell: If I can convince enough people to march in the other direction that the rest start to follow, I won't mind at all that hell is on my heels! -- Let's make one thing clear here, even if I was a member of mom and a clone of Sarah Brady I still wouldn't be advocating the British system of control. If I worshipped at the alter of licensing and registration I still wouldn't advocate the British method because it is sheer nonsense. Virtually every British colony or possession had this system imposed on them, from New Zealand to Canada, and nearly all of them have scrapped it. Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan, New Zealand, even the Falkland Islands all have licensing and registration to one degree or another, but their systems of control are substantially different. The only place I have found of any size that still uses the British system is good old Lesotho! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate Holders
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve: it's simpler than even that. A scanner used with a CAD program, will produce almost anything within reason, depending upon the capabilities of the machinery (tolerances). Peter: Your first comment above is legion; that is why it is ignored by even the most assessed of the facts. What would the people say if the truth of the matter were finally told? What would they say if finally assessed of the fact that only total, uncompromising and brutal subjugation of the 'masses' was the only way to effect a complete and utterly disarmed population? It will happen, and soon, if your fellows don't manage to shake a leg sooner that later. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The Gun Control Network
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The most recent e-mail on Shooters' Rights which has just hit my screen (very good way of disseminating info. and motivating shooters, the Internet) refers to the 6 members of the Gun Control Network whose submission on banning weapons was accepted whereas any opinions the Shooting Community had were ignored. --snip-- Targetting these MPs (no pun intended) with overwhelming support for their opponents would help clarify other MPs' attitudes about gun control. The prospect of losing their nice, comfy sinecures should crystallise their thoughts nicely. Chris Paul Stock Exchange Rifle Club -- The six members are not MPs, although Gill's husband (I think or is it her brother) is. I think their members are stated on their website, but anyway it's Gill, that nutty professor, and four family members of people killed at Dunblane or Hungerford, although I think Tony Hill has packed it in now because the GCN did have seven members at one point. Obviously you're not going to have much luck flooding the MP for Dunblane with information. Steve. Steve, Chris, Steve: Flooding the Dunblane MP might not, but if several hundred protestors were to gather outside his residence a few times a week, between now and election time, and shout slogans protesting the unfair treatment of innocent men and women, then it would be one hell of a wake-up call! When the locals get to understand the ire of people who were targeted for the acts of one man, and get to know just how it feels to be made a scapegoat, then maybe they will wake up to the fact of just what the lies are that are about the land! I say give that filthy little bastard hell! And pardon my lingo, but that's just how I feel! -- We have at least two subscribers who are in that constituency, either of you been to see your MP about the ban, chaps? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Police close bad apple website
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] In today's Nov 2, 2000, "Times" there is following by Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent ""A police force took legal action to close down a website on police corruption run by one of its own officers. Inspector Andrew Catlin, former head of Surrey Police's Firearms Unit, started the site to publicise his concerns about senior officers and complaints from colleagues and the public. The force was given the court injunction at the weekend to close the site because its address is too close to that of the force's web site. Mr Catlin was due to begin operation on www.surreypolice.com yesterday; the official Surrey Police site is www.surrey.police.uk Steve, Tom, I tried to access the http://www.surreypolice.com web site, and this: http://uk2.net/ turned up instead. The other http://www.surrey.police.uk takes you to what looks to be the bona fide police web site. Anybody know what happened to the 'corruption' site? ET ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Legal-Murderer Used Former Police Firearm
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Picked this up in my local paper, it may have a bearing on the reasons why the police are now destroying surplus firearms. --snip-- It was revealed that the weapon was a Smith and Wesson which had once been used as a policeman's gun. Strathclyde police had sold it on to a registered gun dealer and records show it was later destroyed. However, it found its way into the underworld and was wrapped in a towel and used to shoot Wilson at close range. --snip rest-- Steve, DMB, Interesting here, that the firearm that was used in the crime is pointedly referred to as having been a privately held arm, and note too that the element of police/government involvement is minimized. The sixty four thousand dollar questions are: Is it really worth a rat's arse to know who owned the firearm priorly? What particular piece of forensic evidence can be gleaned from this? Would it have saved anyone's life to know? And, if not that particular pistol, then why not another from elsewhere? Maybe the UK government ought outlaw towels? Now there is an idea which time has come! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." --William Pitt to the House of Commons, 18 November 1783 =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I find it rather ironic that Strathclyde Police licensed the RFD they sold their own gun to, now ACPO are saying that RFDs are not to be trusted, apparently. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- ". . . I now realise the amount of unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that own firearms certificates." Steve, IG, Well, IG, I guess that qualifies you as some kind of psychiatry professional, eh? Just what, I'd like to ask, is your unique qualification to denounce another citizen as being unfit to possess firearms, other than the stated disabilities under your law? And perhaps even more importantly, what are the scientific criteria that you apply? Should make interesting discussions for whatever legislative body is involved to remove ever more citizens from the rolls of 'firearms owner', by employing 'IG's Fiat'. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I have to say if IG is a licensing officer the police need very little in the way of evidence to revoke a certificate, so I find his statement a bit odd. The Acts state that the Chief Officer of Police must be satisfied: "that in all the circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace." Which is pretty broad. If IG is aware of dodgy people with certificates then it is fair to say the police haven't done their job properly. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Useful Quote
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The real cause of the American Revolution: "All persons in whose possession any firearms may hereafter be found, will be deemed enemies to his majesty's government." --Gen. Gage Steve, John, For the list, would you mind giving the attribute to that quote, and perhaps a researchable reference? Of late, because many quotes are turning out to be of questionable authenticity, it helps to have a solid source to point others to, and sustain our position. Would do wonders for us here in the 'colonies'. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-armed police raid wrong house
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] at least you Brits are civil about such errors. here in the colonies, they just leave. No notes, no flowers, nothing. kinda like a real cheap date. Steve, Paul, Paul, you forgot to mention that they might even shoot one of the residents in the process, and then be found entirely innocent of any crime. Like here in Washington a few years ago, where a house was hit with a 'dynamic entry', i.e., a no-knock, rush-in and play cops'n robbers. A woman was bending over an open oven pulling out a hot pan with oven mitts on. The cop said something to the effect (I faintly recall) that it looked like she was reaching for a weapon. Yeah, an assault baking tin. She later died from her wounds. Turns out, they had the wrong residence too. It's rather interesting that when one of theirs is killed in the line of work, they have all kinds of ceremonial hoopla; yet not a thing for the victims, not one bloody thing - not even a recompense to settle the burial affairs. If it _does_ happen, it is because the lawyers were getting paid. I have a very difficult time of keeping a stiff upper lip, when crap like that happens. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- But the best one was in New Hampshire I think, where a cop decided the safest place to keep his Glock was in the oven. So one day he forgot the gun was there and turned the oven on. Talk about cook-offs! The other one that was hysterical was the guy in Newark who could not get his car to start because the fuel line was frozen. So genius gets a can of gasoline and puts it on the stove to warm it up and melt the fuel line. Suffice to say that was the last mistake he ever made! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-police show weapons seized from yardies
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This has come out on the same day as a report that racial complaints against the police are at an all time high. If this release was put out to counteract this bit of bad publicity it seems to have worked as it has had far more coverage (at least on radio). Brian T -- I'm convinced the police can't crack the problems in Handsworth because they don't have enough black undercover officers. Steve. Steve, Brian, Without getting into much of a philosophical discussion, allow me this: If the number of things that people normally do were not declared malum prohibitum, then the number of things that cause crime would be of necessity be nonexistent. Ergo, the more 'things' one inveighs against, the more effort that must be expended to counter not only the inveighed against, but also the tactics which are employed: setting traps, making contacts, paying stoolies. doing wiretaps, doing stakeouts, prosecuting the suspects, dealing with delaying tactics, etc. If the government were made to quantify in time and money, the efforts that they expend in pursuing an essentially victimless pastime, and if the number of criminals and criminal substances were totalled as to real value in an otherwise non-criminal venue, I wonder just what the real costs (time, money, and lives) would factor out to be in the artificial (read: Malum Prohibitum) environment of the present? Not having enough members of the darker persuasion, is not a problem in itself, and merely one of perception. From my own experiences here in the US, one is considered to be a turncoat to one's own race when one does work for the establishment that tends to establish one's race as a 'problem'. The are many exceptions, but when the cards fall in the wrong places, those racially identical to the criminals tend to be targets of revenge. Ultimately, false crime produces false criminals, and invites the members of the law enforcement community to become major players, not only for the money but also for the ability to incriminate those whom are seen as adversaries, by using the laws as leverage to inflict pain, instead of mere justice. Corollary: your firearms laws. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws." --Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged" =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-statutory right of entry
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The VAT men (Customs and Excise) have always had awesome powers. Who would cheat the Queens revenue men? I wish the police had their powers. IG (only kidding) Steve , IG, Considering the implications of 'heritage' in law, this is one American who wonders how it came to be that the tax man managed to acquire such powers as to by-pass the local Sheriff in the area of enforcement. It would have been 'nice' had your henchmen of yore been completely dependant upon the local constabulary to assist them. Local police tend to have a more domestic outlook, because they do have to live in the area of their jurisdiction -- usually. Having to contend with the locals would, I think, impart a sense of humility -- no? In my opinion, however irrelevant it might be, all law enforcement should be local, and extend no further that the county. ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-how to deal with roadkill
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you hit something, game or not, you must leave it (having dispatched it to prevent un-nessasary suffering of course), the guy behind may pick it up though as he didn't hit it. Its all to do with stopping people deliberately swerving to kill something (poaching in effect), accident or not if you hit it you must not take it. Niel, trying to catch-up with two weeks worth of back-log. Steve, Niel, Interesting, that. Now, suppose there were two vehicles travelling a roadway, and they were acting in concert: one to hit the beasties, the other to collect them. Kind of points out the uselessness of the law, eh? I would have thought that merely reporting the event -- in the case of a managed game animal -- would be all that is necessary. If someone is intent on hitting his next meal, there's no law that will stop him from doing just that. On the other hand, allowing the hitter to collect the kill and simply report it, would in my estimation help in determining the population density of that particular species, and where their greatest concentrations are, and help in managing them better. It would also help in determining if someone is actually engaged in the act of poaching. Methinks that the act of poaching conducted as road killing is probably largely over estimated (read: way out of proportion to the actual event). ET -- I've seen bicycle tyre pumps converted to fire .410 shot shells, never quite sure how well poachers did with them though! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal Rights protesters
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Small protest at first hunt of season A small group of saboteurs has descended on a hunt meeting in West Kent and tried to disrupt it. Its always been a source of wonder to me as to why the hunts never picket the ALF homes or meeting places. It would be absolutely lawful provided the tresspass laws were adhered to, and no public order offences were committed. Field sports participants seem content to sit back and take it, or pontificate about how aggrieved they are by the actions of the saboteurs, etc. Could it be that the antis are better organised than us? Or are they more passionate? Imagine the publicity if even a small band of field sports persons were to demonstrate at the home of a saboteur? IG (or could it be that being unemployed and living off state benefits gives them the time and means to go all over the place causing bother..) Steve, IG, Sorry if this comment seems a bit dated, considering the date it was sent out. But I wanted to remark on it with all the thoughts that it deserves. The people who engage in anti-activities, are usually those who have not given much thought to what it is that they are against. It matters little -- to them -- that what they don't like and agitate against, has been engaged in from time immemorial. It matters only that they be 'seen' as adamantly against the thing which currently occupies their nascent conscience of yet another moral dilemma in their desire to 'god-like'. These people are so easily lead down the primrose path, that the description 'running like a lemming to the cliff of death' is an appropriate description of their condition. Most of them, 20 years from now, will blush in embarrassment at the mention of having engaged in such activities, as were described by IG above. These are people who lack a proper moral or intellectual compass, and are drifting. They latch onto the easiest and most negative message, as it easily matches their preconceived notions about what it is that humans are here for, what it is that humans have done to poor Mother Earth (or in newspeak: Ghia, or however it is that you which to spell that), and what the true roll is for humans. These people say they love the earth, but hate humans. If they had their way, all humans but the approved ones would be 'eliminated'. Some writers have described them as fostering a polity otherwise known as 'watermelon politics', or green on the outside, and red on the inside: green to reflect their most vociferous concerns for the environment, and red to reveal their truer nature as concerns what it is they are really after: total control over humanity. They might get it, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, if enough people are gullable enough to believe the message of hate. And hate is the message. You just don't control the things that you love, but it is very human to control the things that you hate and cannot eliminate. See: http://www.wnd.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=digital+angelconfig=restrict=exclude= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Armistice Day
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] My uncle was involved as a Lieutenant in the Great War and told me that after the war it was suggested that a statue of a giant rat should be erected in Whitehall instead of the Cenotaph, since that was how so many soldiers ended up - blown to pieces and the pieces eaten by rats. It was suggested that the idea might not be popular because of the proximity of the Prime Minister's residence and an association that might be formed in the public's mind between the two. ---snip-- The creation of a shiny new graveyard with ten thousand bodies in it every year for a few decades might achieve rather a lot more than the present arrangements. Any comments from anyone? Regards Norman Bassett Steve, Norm, So long as government sees the children of its citizens as nothing more than battle fodder, then good men and women will ever become as salt to the earth with their spilt blood. You can bury a thousand men, and more than a few will doff their hats; in but a century's time, they will be but a faint memory. Today's woes overshadow yesterday's remorse, and history is yet again repeated; it is all in the name of 'expedience', and the false prophets. That the leadership of a nation would willingly spill the blood of its youth in a spree of exuberance speaks of its essence: evil incarnate. If you send one man to his untimely death, it is spoken of as murder. But if you send thousands to their untimely deaths, it is glory. Where is the justice in that? ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-Calibres for Fallow
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am no expert on stalking, but my instinctive advice is yes, go for premium bullets - a very minor part of your total expenditure, and how many deer are you likely to shoot anyway? Nosler Partitions or Speer Grand Slams, and as a cheaper alternative try Nosler Ballistic Tips. I only ever shot one fallow deer, a young buck; from 100 yards max I hit it square behind the shoulder with a 150gr softpoint (Winchester factory ammo) out of a 30-06, and it barely twitched, just stood there for half a minute before falling over, wriggling a bit, then expiring. Rather disconcerting! The bullet exited, as I would have expected. Anthony Harrison Steve, Anthony, The story around where I live in Washington (the real Washington, as opposed to where all the BS originates), is that if you manage to properly hit a deer, or elk in the heart (locally referred to as the 'boiler room') without spooking the animal just prior to, then the likely response is as you have described. On the other hand, if the animal is spooked, or has its attention gotten by a noise, it has enough adrenalin in its system to take it quite a distance, even after being shot in the heart with the best accuracy. Experienced hunters -- bow, black powder, and rifle -- have related this time and again. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
