CS: Legal-Section 5(1)(b)
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If anything is used as a 'weapon of offence' then its a criminal offence anyway. If thet deliberately filled it with ammonia to use it as a weapon then it was probably an offensive weapon and could (under some circumstances) be considered to be covered by Section 5(1)b though more than the act of fillin it with ammonia would be required as Jonathan points out. Any sensible police officer would charge on both counts and let the CPS, Forensics and the courts argue the technicalities. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Reloading Kit Questions
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't start with an automatic press like the Dillon, just too much going on to supervise everything if your not used to reloading. Basic kit from one of the leading manufacturers is probably a good start and with a small/medium O-ring press it can be mounted on a board that clamps to a substantial table or fitted to something like a Black and Decker Workmate. Your kit should include :- A good reloading manual (or even more than one) Press Dies and shellholders in each calibre priming tool* primer pocket cleaning tools Shooters scales/Powder scales Powder thrower* Mirometer or vernier calipers** Case trimming tools*** Loading blocks Case lubricating kit*** * not essential as most presses come with a basic priming tool, but it helps if you inspect each primer. ** always good practice to check the widths and lengths of your cartridges, just in case *** not essential for the pistol calibres but important for the rifle ones. Best to read a couple of the good reloading manuals or articles in magazines. Even better get an experienced reloader to show you. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Cats...and Pheasants..
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If a wild animal has been legally captured and become a possession or is bred in captivity then it has become property and therefore theft from the aviary would be just that - theft. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Cutlasses
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cutlasses and even Boarding Pikes were still listed as warships equipment right through the 1960's and even into the early 1970's. At least one case of pristine cutlasses was discovered in store in one of the West Wales storage depots during the massive Falklands equipment preparations - that would have been early 1982. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Yard summit as gun gang crime reaches peak in London
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mr Fuller said police 'were particularly concerned at the rise in the' number of "assassination style" weapons in London. "However, London is not flooded with guns. You can't just hire one on any street corner. In fact, it sometimes takes a couple of days, even if you know the right person to approach." OK I give up what are 'assassination style' weapons? Judging by this article sub-machineguns and powerful handguns perhaps? Or is this Day of the Jackal style rifles? On the question of availability - What an admission, a couple of days to get a gun! I wonder why the police bother enforcing the Firearms Acts if its this easy!!! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Fears over moves to extend powers of military police
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No they routinely have weapons available for issue to all members of the force (who train and qualify to use them as part of their basic training). They don't usually carry them routinely (they do at a few special sites). Also its not just handguns, they also have MP5's in their armoury and have had for several years. I've visited bases where the pictures were on display in the police office and the gatehouse. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Shooting at 1000 Yards...
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think what Richard Loweth was saying was it set 1914 in context. The British Army (an all regular force at the opening of the war) was capable of delivering sustained, accurate _area_ fire to ranges in excess of 1,000 yards with bolt action rifles, to such an extent that the German's believed they were facing massed machineguns. Here Richard was talking of the average infantryman with standard equipment and in the heat of battle. By no stretch of the imagination could a Match or Target rifle be described as 'standard' in the military sense and the experience of even a relative novice in TR or MR probably outstrips the average infantryman of 1914 when judging wind, etc. The scoped and accurized rifles at Diggle are even further removed form what Richard was talking about. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Cats the worst killers
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Conversly I know of a case where a breeder of Guinea Fowl was convicted of criminal damage to a cat (owned by his neighbour) who he found stalking the birds running wild in his garden. He shot and killed the cat with an airgun on his own property so did not contravene firearms laws or animal cruelty laws (having killed the cat humanely). Obviously the court came to the conclusion that a a domestic cat was property in this case. Also the breeder of the guinea fowl was rather foolish in having the birds loose in the back garden only protected or contained by light meshing. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Ex-employee kills four and commits suicide
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I note that in at least one of the reports he had been convicted of 'conspiracy to steal' from his employers, indicating an organised group (of empoyees?) preparing or stealing from the plant where he worked. Perhaps he was after either (1) those that testified against him or (2) those also involved in the thefts but not caught. Equally he could just have been nuts. As this plant was in Chicago doesn't this show the failing of some of the strict gun laws Chicago has as a convicted felon turned up with a number of weapons including handguns over a week after he was convicted. I also find it strange that although convicted he was free and was to report to prison himself, is this normal? Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-organisations
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems all the Welsh Associations and Federations have been left off the list. Welsh Airgun Association (WAA) Welsh Target Shooting Union (WTSU) Welsh Rifle Association (WRA) Welsh Smallbore Rifle Association (WSRA) Welsh Pistol Association (WPA) - now defunct with its previous functions spread across the WAA and WTSU, I believe. Welsh Target Shooting Federation (WTSF) There may also be a field air target association but I'm not sure. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-oops
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even more incredible is that (as reported in the press) :- 1. 'Several people saw him walking down the road with a sawn-off shotgun' 2. Police raid the house about an hour and a half later - firearms teams, loudhailers, etc. 3. He and his son are arrested after being handcuffed lying face down in the roadway 4. A search of the house failed to find any trace of the gun 5. They then hold him in custody even though they have no more than the witnesses who saw him in the road with a gun To cap it all two weeks later they go and do it again! It was also revealed that this man is an ex-Barbados police officer and black. I think North Wale sPolice have egg on their faces! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Obviously they don't know what a camp carbine is
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] In practical terms the difference between an M16A2 and a Marlin Camp carbine must be marginal in terms of its security use - I think this is the 'looks bad therefore it must be bad' syndrome coming to the fore again. Also how anyone can equate college security being armed with rifles with the National Guard running amuck 21 years ago is positively amazing! Regards Jerry -- You must be joking - 5.56mm will inflict a far more serious wound than 9mm at the ranges the police are likely to open fire. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Gun laws spur more crime
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This was brought up on the Today programme on Radio 4 - Resident population of the city centre of Newcastle was given as only 4,000 people. Hence, as Jonathan says, the massive crime per head of population figures. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Caretaker told to take his guns away from school
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also that many schools have had cadet forces for many years - armed with almost the full range of British Army standard equipment. This smacks of total prejudice and if the person's job is at risk because of his chosen sport I think the caretaker should consult a solicitor as soon as possible. If this wasn't written into their contracts the County authorities are on a very sticky wicket and the Department of Education and Employment shouldn't even be commenting - this is a Home Office matter! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Hunting ban
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] One of the penalties in the proposal in addition to a L5000 fine is a ban for life on owning a dog! What's the penalty for death [of a human] by dangerous driving? --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner Causing Death by Dangerous Driving used to be only five years (maximum sentence), I believ that may have been increased. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Vulcans
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Vulcan that diverted to Rio was not on a Black Buck bombing mission. Rather embarrassingly it was an ocean surveillance mission that lost radio contact and couldn't rondevous with its tankers. The most embarrassing part was that it was carrying a stand off anti-ship missile not listed as being used by Britain (a missile that was later pictured complete with American flag)! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-police weapons
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Probably correct - CS gas/OC spray and expanding bullets are both controlled by the Hague Conventions on the conduct of war. However, I doubt thermobaric weapons are or would be controlled by the conventions as their methodology of use is essentially the same as any large artillery shell or aerial bomb. Its the tactical use of such weapons agains cities and their civilian populations that might be considered a war crime. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-auto-acceleration
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, JPHowells Auto-acceleration of very small charges of powder have been recorded. A Target Gun reloading article of several years ago noted it. The author of the article was sceptical of auto-acceleration and said so in print. However during a reloading course (I believe at Bisley under NRA auspices) they were loading progressively larger charges of powder into .38's for accuracy testing - each individual charge was hand weighed and everything was fully supervised. On range testing some of the loads that had been made up in .357 magnum cases became wildly erratic with very small charges of fast burning pistol powder, weapon report, velocity (they were using a chronograph) and accuracy were varying wildly from shot to shot. The author put it down to auto-acceleration, conjecturing that the very small charges of powder were laying along the bottom of the case and igniting together instead of in 'sequence' along the case giving a rapidly rising and massive pressure curve. Note also that in several of the American reloading manuals 'minimum charges' are stated as well as maximum. I don't think this is because the bullet wouldn't leave the barrel. Most reloading writers seem to recommend a powder/load combination that bulks up well in the case - giving more consistent results with or without wadding or fillers. Regards Jerry -- On the subject of handloading, I handled one of the Taurus "handrifles" in a shop the other day, Alex and Richard can rest assured all the knowledge they have accumulated won't go to waste! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-Murder...
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] One must also consider that :- 1. In many parts of the world shooting at a vehicle that has passed through a checkpoint in such a manner is legal. 2. That any deaths or injuries that took place becaus of running a 'roadblock' would have been attributed to the driver and not the soldiers. My other postings about this make my viewpoint clear. Anyone running a roadblock manned by Paratroopers in a 'terrorist-like manner' is playing Russian Roulette with more than one loaded chamber! Apparently this was considered a form of sport by some 'joyriders' in Northern Ireland! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Murder...
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jonathan I believe you are correct if you were reckless as to the driving in such circumstances, i.e. you went far beyond reasonableness in your driving and the danger to others was obvious to a reasonable person, though the point is you needed to have been breaking the law in the first place. However, if your actions were reasonable (for the circumstances) and lawfull, i.e. a police officer persuing a recklessly driven vehicle but displaying audible and visual warning of your approach this would probably mean if you killed someone it would be manslaughter, not murder. The difference being the lawfulness of your actions. The cut off line is grey and would normally be decided in court, though recent CPS decisions seem to be circumventing this (the gentleman with the chairleg shot in London). For murder, as you well know, 'malice' does not have to be shown to a known individual only that you killed them knowing it was a possibility of your illegal actions (e.g. the Canary Wharf bombers killing two newspaper shop workers). Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Dover guns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Turpitz was attacked more than once by 617 Squadron and 9 Squadron. The in last pair of attacks she was first severely damaged, then the Germans moved her South to be emplaced as a massive coastal battery. It was here that she received at least one direct hit from a 6-ton 'Tallboy' bomb and several near misses and subsequently capsized. After the war it was discovered that a Fleet Air Arm raid on her from carriers in 1943 had effectively ended her wartime career as an ocean going fighting ship as her main electrical switching and communications centre had been destroyed beyond repair. It was patched together so she could move but she would nver have been able to undertake an ocean voyage and fight. One of the Germans best kept secrets, if the Royal Navy had known it would have affected all naval planning for the convoys to Russia and all major activities in the North Atlantic, allowing much of the Home Fleet to be re-deployed for offensive action rather than covering for a breakout led by the Turpitz. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Naval Guns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] BIG Naval guns are simply THE biggest big boys toys! I will bet that nearly everyone of us on this list is an inveterate fiddler in either engineering, computers or some such activity. I think shooting attracts the mechanically/technically minded. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Naval Guns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] There was also the RAP round for these guns - a Rocket Assisted Projectile - that was reputedly used in the Gulf War. Capable of driving a full sized projectile to 60-80,000 yards. It was also believed that a laser guided RAP round was developed with an anti-ship and shore bombardment role. Not everyone believes in naval bombardment of shore targets being effective. However remember that one of these Iowa Class ships can land the equivalent of an attack by two A7 corsairs (or Jaguars or Harriers, for the British perspective) every 30 seconds for an extended period. Would you want to be on the receiving end? Naval bombardment is like any other distant form of power projection (the air war in Kosovo/Serbia springs to mind) if you pick the right targets it works. Regards Jerry -- Hey, naval bombardment is what helped establish the British Empire! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-colours
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are confused Black Alpha is one of the lowest states of alert (only black comes below it). Regards Jerry -- Well this is about the tenth message I've gotten on the subject, and none of them say the same thing, so it's safe to assume I'm not the only one confused! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-colours
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We spent a few weeks at Amber after the Scots Guards bus was blown up outside their barracks in London (October/November 1981). At one stage most of the UK was at this level because everything was at risk and the IRA had a very active ASU operating on the mainland. Apparently inteligence had been received that training bases and high profile targets were high on their list and we were a little twitched for a while as Dartmouth's security wasn't designed to keep people out. Even more worrying was the ratings at the gate getting issued with guns (the Marines we didn't mind)! Regards Jerry -- Well they never put us on anything higher than Black Alpha even after the IRA blew up the 2 Para base in Shrewsbury, and as I recall they were on Black Alpha alert when it was blown up. This is probably why I was thinking it was the highest state of alert. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Naval Gun Fun
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They didn't all elevate up to 45 degrees, thus denying them maximum range. Very dependent on when they were built. Early battleships had very limited elevation, but then the guns were aimed from within the turret so effective range was very limited (this was before WW1), sometimes as little as a couple of miles. A Tushima the battleship lines were as close as a few hundred yards apart at some stages of the battle. They weren't all capable of firing flat, thus denying them the ability to sink ships at point-blank range. Certainly not true of many designs, at the Battle of Cape Matapan the British battleships engaged the Italian ships at about 5,000 yards - point blank with a 15-inch naval gun. However many warhip designs have problems engaging targets at close range over the bows, the rise and flair of the bows interfering with line of fire. When mounted in pairs they sometimes bracketed targets but didn't hit them (stern chases) because they couldn't be made to fire on a single spot, the projectile paths were parallel, not convergent. All the elevating mechanisms were usually independent (even in a triple or quadruple turret) so that all guns were independent of each other in case of damage. Also the elevation would be varied for each gun so as to drop a line of shells, or when registering on target they would be adjusted to as to drop in a cluster. The bores were so big you had to specify the internal and external radii of the corners of the rifling and the degree of surface finish. Most big naval guns were built rather than having the rifling cut into them as we think of with smallarms. Certainly many British battleships used gun barrels where the inner layers were actually wound copper wire, only the outer sleeve being steel. Such barrels took a terrific amount of skill and time to build. The last British battleship (Vanguard) was actually equipped with 15-inch guns originally built as spares for the WW1 vintage Queen Elizabeth Class ships, it being too expensive to tool up to produce new barrels from scratch. The big problem with naval guns was they could fire further than they could spot the fall of the shot. Not quite true as the 'height of eye' from the director tower of a battleship when ranging on a ship with a similar height of superstructure is well within the range of the guns, even at 40 miles. However, achieving such good conditions would be unusual, thats why most carried spotter planes to plot the fall of shot and relay it back to the ship. Radar made life a lot easier and its reported at the Battle of North Cape Scharnhorst barely saw the Duke of York before she was sunk. Naval gun sights - which compensated for pitch and roll - were state-of-the-art and top secret technology when battleships were the nation's largest and most expensive weapons. The gun sights did not compensate for pitch and roll but the fire prediction computers did. These were huge electro-mechanical or pneumatic-mechanical computing systems that could compensate for the movement of ship and target, flight time, etc. They were so large that they had to be installed when the ship was built, being installed well below the waterline partly because of their great weight and partly to provide them with the best protection. The director tower on a large warship from where the guns were actually 'aimed' needed several highly skilled men to operate it and the a mass of optical equipment. They collected the data that formed the basis for the calculations by the predictors. The battleship ruled the seas during its era and a modern battleship was a massive investment in time, trained manpower and money for any nation. From my uncle - one third of the cost of each of Britain's battleships - a 50% markup - was paid by shipbuilders in bribes to specifiers. There were certainly reports of bribes but I doubt they came to that sort of percentage as even a small proportion of that would have been a kings ransom. And a "maybe-apocryphal" (you don't often hear me say that!) - Dover was not equipped with coastal guns capable of interdicting the Channel during WW2 because the Admiral in charge had an aunt living in the town and didn't want it bombarded flat! Well if you look at Dover town its not well sited to cover the Channel over a wide arc. The coastal guns were mounted above and to either side of Dover on the high ground. If you go up to Langdon Battery above Dover, which is now the monitoring station for the Channel Traffic Management Scheme, you can see pictures of the WW2 structures on which the current building stands. These include some very impressive naval guns with a fine arc of fire over the Channel. Incidentally if said Admiral didn't want Dover bombarded flat why are there so many protective bays/hangars in the Harbour for the MTB's and MGB's that operated from there (they were still there as recently as 20 years ago). A ver
CS: Pol-Europol etc.
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think thats what the original articles said. When on duty the Europol police officers would be exempt from all prosecution, even in their home state. They would literally be above the law. A distinctly worrying proposition, but why is any suggestion of exemption being made? Are there similar exemptions elsewhere in Europe? Despite what we may think about the actions of some armed police officers the British police are accountable to the law the same as everybody else. Regards Jerry -- So now I move into optimist mode and say I think it pretty unlikely that Europol will be able to do anything they please without fear of prosecution. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Yoko Ono
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also the gun death statistics seem rather high. Do over 30,000 people a year died from gunshot wounds in the United States? Regards Jerry -- Yes it is off by quite a bit. Using her stats 33,800 people a year would have to have died from gun shot wounds. There were a few years where suicides were pretty high but even so it sounds OTT. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Commonwealth Games Volunteers
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why not offer to assist and take part in the sit-in? One way of guaranteeing entry and making your point - they can't operate without range staff. Regards Jerry -- I'm personally not in favour of doing anything that would actually stop the competition from taking place, a protest seems reasonable but actually stopping the competition seems a bit too petty and it won't help particularly. A lot of people with some placards or something similar and some calls to the press (PR hacks take note) to cover it seem like the best approach, if we're going to do anything. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Driving on the PROPER side...
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually the Japanese aircraft carriers were deliberately built with the island the 'wrong' side of the ship. The idea was to operate the carriers in groups with contra-rotating air groups but the theory didn't work and the carriers were later rebuil with the island to the right. Incidentally there is some merit to the theory that right handers will deviate to the left but the way I heard it was that the right side is dominant and will therefore tend to be stronger and therefore a rigt anded person will walk in a very wide left anded circle as the push off and stride length of the right foot is stronger than that of the left. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Mick North Article
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mick North Article in the ET 28 November 2000 Regards Jerry 'I only had Sophie, we were very close' Two and a half years after his wife died, Mick North lost his only child at Dunblane. He talks to Cassandra Jones about rebuilding his life BY the cooker in Mick North's kitchen sits a book of slimming meals for one. It serves as a poignant reminder of how his life - if not his waistline - has been whittled away. He lives alone now, in a beautiful but remote stone house looking south over a Scottish loch, an hour's drive from Dunblane - the town he left in disgust three years ago. "I was always considered the most bereft of the Dunblane parents," says North in his slow, measured way, settling down on the sofa and petting his daughter Sophie's cats - the last remnants of his family. "All the other parents had each other or other children. I had only Sophie. We were very close." Two and a half years before the massacre in the school gym, Mick's wife, Barbara, died of breast cancer, leaving Mick and Sophie to care for each other. They were not just father and daughter, they were best friends and travelling companions. Whenever Mick, a biochemist, attended an academic conference, Sophie came too. Side by side in the car, they would chat and play her favourite tapes as they toured North America. When they met new people, outgoing Sophie would break the ice for her shy father. "Sophie was great. I think she would have been a good listener and someone who made her own way in life. But I find it hard to imagine what she would have been like if she had grown up. The image of her as she was, aged five, is too strong," he says, shooting a glance, as he often does, at the school photograph that hangs on his sitting room wall. It shows a smiling girl with a long face like her father's, full of a life that ended suddenly on March 13, 1996. That day began like any other: Sophie ate her Coco Pops and Mick took her to Dunblane Primary School before driving to work at Stirling University. Usually, she kissed him goodbye, but that day she didn't, so his last memory is of his "grown up five-year-old" standing quietly on the other side of the room. A couple of hours later, he was told there had been a radio report of a shooting at the school. He leapt into his car and raced over there but it was not until 2.40 pm that Mick was finally told that a man carrying handguns had found class one doing PE, and killed Sophie, 15 of her classmates and their teacher, before taking his own life. In the four and a half years since then, he has struggled to cope with that knowledge - and his guilt that somehow he should have protected her. The first two anniversaries of her death he marked with poems; now he has written a book, Dunblane - Never Forget. This, he hopes, will stand as a lasting memorial to his daughter. There is little self-pity in the book - "It's not my way," he says, his heavy eyebrows beetling with the effort of restraint. "In some ways, it was easier for me than for other parents - for them, having other children around was a reminder that one was missing."
CS: Misc-Recommended movies
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quirkily 'Handgun' is often described as anti-gun. Though why this should be I don't really know as it seemed pretty balanced to me. My copy of Halliwell's TV and Video Guide 2000 lists Handgun as an EMI/Kestrel release in 1982 of 101 minutes. In their opinion it rates only one star but I found it quite interesting if a little slow in places. The plot line says ' A schoolmistress, raped at gunpoint, takes her revenge' and ' Novel, feminist revenge drama with a neat twist at the end'. Starring - Karen Young, Clayton Day, Suzie Humphreys, Helena Humann. No to be confued with a crime drama of 1994 with the same 'Handgun' title. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, you are right! Bugger. IG Yes I believe that was covered in the Vagrancy Acts as well (or at least display of the equipment) :-) Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-Safer Scotland Campaign
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] A flourescent light tube when broken is an extremly dangerous item, however it falls into the same category as a broken beer glass or bottle, a weapon of offence rather than an offensive weapon (i.e. it was designed for another purpose but put to use as an offensive weapon. An offensive weapon was one that was designed or intended as a weapon, such as a knife). As were most of these items it seems. It seems most of these criminals didn't have 'offensive weapons' per se. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have had members removed from Clubs of which I have been a member, because they were unsafe or became unsuitable in our opinion. Some joined other clubs but most just left the sport. One was a little embarrassing as the member concerned was sacked from his job (by another member), became unsafe in both attitude and due to a medical condition he did not take care of enough, and his attitude became both unreasonable and at times offensive. His certificate was subsequently revoked. The real embarrassment was his employment as a Special Constable when he first joined the club, they later dismissed him and it was the same force that subsequently revoked his FAC. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-gcn membership
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe the 'Hole in the Ground in Wales' is a holiday/second home, their main residence is somewhere in South East England. Incidentally I spotted a news report recently that said there is still some hassle over the 'hole in the ground' as it breached planning law and was built without proper permissions or respect for the environment in a national park. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-what the law should be
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Somewhere around here I have the Home Office report on the setting up of a National Firearms Licencing Authority. The figures were enlightening but it was judged to be too expensive, however that was about 8 years ago and the fees for a FAC or SGC have risen dramatically since. If I remember my figures they would indicate an FAC fee of around L50 even on todays prices for staff, etc. As for IG's comments on who should or should not have guns yes I have a view and its not that everyone should have unfettered access. Deep down we all know that that could never be the case. Some controls would be necessary even if it were proper checks on background (for a criminal record or mental health problems). Personally I think we should be looking at a variety of approvals for different classes of weapons, from shotguns, hunting and target weapons at the lower end of the scale to an equivalent of concealed carry permits on request (if certain criteria were to be met), even private possession of fully automatic weapons (again given certain criteria). Large sections of the population don't want to own guns so they don't have to but for those that do then the current situation is a farcical use of police resources as are many of the provisions of the Firearms Acts. e.g. If I can't prove reasonable use I can't buy a .22 rifle but I could set up a minature rifle range. Perhaps not a good example but it begs the question as to how the rest of Europe manages without our systems. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I doubt the Metropolitan Police is relaxing its rules to the extent that they would accept people who had actually served prison terms, and cetainly not three years or more, or any crimes of violence sufficient for a prison term. Having only seen the press coverage of this I do wonder what offences the Met would accept. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-statutory right of entry
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, JPHowells Not sure of the Coroners powers of entry or search. However, these powers would normally be exercised by the police as 'Coroners Officers'. I know a Coroner can direct that persons are brought before the court to answer his questions and possibly impose sentences for failing to appear or giving false evidence. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We all know that the courts require more evidence than mere suspicion. Hamilton took Central Scotland Police to court on appeal didn't he, and won. That later set the scene for a McMurdo to refuse to revoke his FAC depite good evidence from several of his own officers. Unless the police have 'good reason' to revoke a certificate they probably won't, so unless there's evidence they probably won't even try if they think the certificate holder can afford an appeal to the Crown Court. Regards Jerry -- No that's totally wrong. McMurdo refused to revoke his FAC because he thought Hamilton would appeal, however Cullen was very scathing of that view and said that McMurdo should not have pre-judged it, and that McMurdo's interpretation of Section 27 was completely wrong. In addition only about 5% of appeals in Scotland at the time were successful anyway, so CSP were totally and utterly wrong on all counts. Certainly in the case of Hamilton there was more than just a vague suspicion, CSP had mountains of evidence indicating that Hamilton was unfit to hold an FAC, but they had not collated it properly and only McMurdo was aware of the bulk of it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Another stupid ACPO policy
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reminds me of the sales stands at Pistol AD after the Princess Anne Mall attempted kidnapping. The PPK jammed because of inept handling so almost all police forces got rid of them - ex-police PPs and PPKs were selling for not much over L100! It also brought to light several forces that did no rotate their guns. A contact in D J Litt's told me they had bought in a largish quanity of police guns (mainly SW Model 10HB's but with a smattering of PPs and PPKs). They fell into three catagories :- 'Range guns' - almost shot to bits, well worn barrels and loose actions. Almost unsaleable junk. 'Carry Guns' - well worn external finish but internally excellent. Sold off cheaply or used as the basis for PP2 and 3 conversions. 'Armoury Queens' - Almost as they came out of the box new. But many were so full of accumulated rubbish, debris and dust they had to have the actions stripped so they would cycle! Times have changed since then. Regards Jerry -- I don't think so, because the HMIC report in 1994 was pretty damning of police maintenance practices of firearms, I seem to recall they said about half of the guns were so badly maintained as to be unusable. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-statutory right of entry
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are various emergency powers that can be brought into force by such people as the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Swine Fever, Foot and Mouth, etc), MOD, Home Office and vaious other government departments and organisations under Emergency Powers Acts or emergency situations covered in other acts. Some of the powers are almost literally draconian - right of entry and seizure of goods and property, summary arrest and detention without trial, etc. Regards Jerry -- Oh yeah, there are draconian emergency powers, have a read of Section 6 of the Firearms Act 1968 for example. There are all sorts of emergency orders and so on still in force regulating all sorts of things in Northern Ireland. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Entry without a Search Warrant
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry Steve the right of access is a lot wider than you seem to think, in certain circumstances all of these and more have a right of access to your home without a warrant. True they usually call the police as by that stage a brach of the peace is a likely event if they enter (social workers, etc) or public safety is at risk (gas workers, etc). Gas, water and electricity worker have a statutiry right of access to their equipment fitted in your home for safety or inspection (can also be wider). Social worker can enter under various child protection criteria if they have reasonable cause (they usually call the police). Customs and Excise have an 'open warrant' and usually only need the signature of a supervisory officer to exercise it. Fire and ambulance services can enter to do their respective duties. BT can enter to remove its lines and equipment (they usually don't apparently - I think this also applies to other telcos). I believe TV licencing need a warrant as do the police except when they are in 'hot persuit' or have reasonable suspicion that a wanted person is on the premises (search warrants usually only applly to searches for things not people). Environmental health officers do indeed have a right of access but usually use it through the courts. There are lots of others. Richard Stillgoe did a comedy sketch on it on TV the list is truly amazing. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Another stupid ACPO policy
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Probably because so few police weapons are now easy to sell in the UK. What's the second hand value of a semi-auto MP5 or a Glock or SiG pistol when well worn and on the open (i.e. international) market? Probably not much. You can't sell them in the UK as we can't own them (unless they are deactivated of course). If you export them or sell them to a dealer they are probably going to cost even more than destroying them. Regards Jerry -- You're forgetting about trade-ins, the police often did trade in their old guns for new ones, and then the dealer would either deac the old ones or export them. You're also assuming the police dispose of guns that are well-worn, they don't, I know of one police force whose definition of "well worn" is moderate holster wear, so they ditch them before they rust. Reparkerise and you have a decent gun. And the final incorrect assumption is that none of them can be legally owned by civilians, the police have a lot of shotguns and rifles that are perfectly legal for us to own, but they are chopping them all up. For example, I was in line to buy a police surplus P-H bipod, but instead it has been melted down because of this stupidity. It's a complete and utter waste of taxpayer money. Anyone who has some evidence of other police guns being destroyed because of this policy feel free to let me know. Bear in mind this is merely an ACPO policy, it has no legal standing, how ACPO can dictate the expenditure of my tax money is beyond me. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-more daft laws
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No new laws were passed in the Parliamentary recess (they couldn't be). This is simply the taking up of emergency powers granted to the Government in civil emergencies. Most of the powers are a hold over from WW1, WW2 and the Cold War.Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Israeli riot control
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Pattern Room collection does not include the APC equipped to spool hundreds of feet of thin wire around and through a crowd and then send a tazer like electrical shock through it. Semi-lethal is the term one commentator made about it as the fatality rate was more than negligibile if it was used is wet or rainy conditions or people got multiple shocks. The cattle and riot prods produced by other British companies don't appear at the Pattern Room either, nor their riot stick derivatives. There are lots of others. One of our lesser know export successes is in such equipment lines. However the FCO keeps it very quiet, but it still gets into the press rather to frequently for their liking, especially when a campaigning journalist gets into one of the FCO/MOD organised sales displays that include such things. Rather embarrassing for our ethical exports policies. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Artist's rifles
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Artists Rifles have a long history and it was one of the volunteer teritorial units formed under the Artists Rifles after WW2 that became 21st SAS Regiment (again a Territorial Unit and one where the Territorial Unit actually is more senior in military terms to its 'regular army' regiment - 22nd SAS). I believe that the Artists Rifles history has been written and may well be available (though not a best seller). Many volunteer battalions were formed at the start of World War 1, the so called 'Chums Battalions'. Serveral friends have interests in this area and I will see if I can get any further information. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Israeli riot control
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve's recollections are probably based on the implementation of the 'Riot Act' provisions by military units, this was generally superceded in the 1970's with the realisation that it could never be applied again in the UK (even in Northern Ireland) without a public outcry so great that no Government would sanction it. Use of proportional force aganst the rioters is obviously legal and firearms or other lethal force could be used where necessary. Also I doubt many members of the public would be volunteering their services in a riot these days. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-new uniform for US soldiers
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eveer seen the size of an American military beret and the material that is used? The things are huge and unweildy if their the same as the ones issed in the early 1980's, somewhere around here I still have my RN beret of that era which is much more compact. Also the American beret only appears to be part of the dress uniform and not used in combat at all, unlike our own forces. Regards Jerry -- Mine was a kangol beret, I hated the damn things because they soaked up water and were very uncomfortable to wear. Some of the other makes were even worse. Plus our boots were made to the cheapest standard possible and took about a month to take a polish. In fact whenever possible we used to do "trades" with US units. Americans seemed to like collecting berets, they were a good swap! Everything we were issued seemed to soak up water, especially combat jackets, they were like towels. I recall that the US Special Forces used to wear their berets in the field, but I don't think they do anymore, probably to avoid identification. I have to say I used to stand on guard duty wearing that stupid beret wishing we had caps while my ears froze solid. I remember seeing some US troops with the caps with the fold-down ear warmers. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Israeli riot control
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I bet most of it was originally developed for use against the less civilised areas of our one time Empire. Remember machine guns were first issued to British troops only to be used againstthe heathen tribes not our European opponents (and stamped as such). The British were not squeamish about using very draconian measures in riot control in the 'colonies' - grape shot was one extreme I believe and the Riot Act was invoked (abroad) right into the 1960's possibly the 1970's. More recently British firms have developed some very impressive riot control and riot suppression equipment. However, the Home Office is very wary of allowing most of it to be tested by British police let alone issued. Regards Jerry -- Most of it looked like it had been developed for use in Northern Ireland from what I recall of the Pattern Room collection. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Israeli riot control
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, JPHowells In the UK use of 'lethal force', in this case the .22 rifle, against rioters would most likely be illegal except in the most extreme circumstances even if the intention was not to kill. Most police forces balk at deploying baton rounds and CS gas in the mainland UK in such circumstances (even at the Boardwater Farm riots). Regards Jerry -- They've got some nifty anti-riot gear in the Pattern Room. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-who's educating who?
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know at least one hunt in the South Wales area has a captive bolt humane killer (that from one of the members whose partner/boyfriend would be responsible for it in the hunt). However, one stalker/hunter/ranger/gamewarden has apparently got a section 5 authority for a .44 magnum as a humane killer. Special circumstances mean he's forced into heavy undergrowth in persuit of injured deer (usually injured by poachers) and can't get a head shot. The large heavy round is about all that is useful as he can't crawl in with a rifle or shotgun. Several others have been given the line that the single shot .32 is the only thing available or that will be allowed. Regards Jerry -- You don't need Section 5 authority for a humane killer, handguns held for this reason are exempt under Section 3 of the 1997 Act. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No time limit for production of the certificate is stated in the act, the timescale for production is therefore held to be immediate (See the Road Traffic Act provisions for production of drivingdocuments for the wording that would be used otherwise). The failure to produce the certificate is an offence - the penalties for which are laid out in the schedule to the Act. These have since been modified by other Acts such as the Criminal LAw Acts that increased the penalties. Possession of a firearm or shotgun without a certificate or lawful authority is an offence in itself. Any offence reasonably suspected that can result in a prison term of five years or more (possession of a shotgun without the necessary authority?) is automaticaly an 'arrestable offence' in law. i.e. the police can arrest without further evidence or cause - in this case the person was requested to produce his certificate and refused, he was in possession of a shotgun so he could reasonably be suspected to have no certificate and the police were not required to carry out any further checks before arresting him. The police 'may' (as it says in the Act) request the production of the certificate at any time if they believe you are 'in possession' of the shotgun or firearm. This includes when its in its locked security cabinet, etc. As I said before I'd like to meet this guys solicitor/ barrister. The law was obviously broken and there was only a recommendation that a database of FAC/SGC holder be set up, not a legal requirement. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Israeli bullets
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nick Steadman has done some articles on this in SADW. Essentially most of the 'rubber' bullets the Israeli's are using are FMJ with a rubber coating. I believe Nick is still away at the moment - if he's home he may well have flood problems as he lives inthe Brighton-Hove area - otherwise I believe he would have commented himself. The Israeli's have always been rather heavy handed in dealing with the Palestinians. This may stem from the early 1930's and 1940's when Arabs regarded it as good sport to attack buses loaded with Jewish immigrants (at this time the Jews were forbidden to possess weapons outside their own settlements so were 'legally' unarmed while in transit - the British were enforcing the rules remember) . Later in 1948 many of the 'displaced' Palestinians left because they expected the fledgling Israel to be smashed by the oncoming Arab armies and the Jews massacred almost to the last man, woman and child - incidentally leaving their lands, settlements and property to the returning Palestinians. Imagine their shock when the fledgling IDF fought them to a standstill and left hundreds of thousands of these Palestinians away from their homes and lands with no way of going back. The rump of Palestine not held by Israel, the Gaza strip and West Bank, were administered by Egypt and Jordan respectively, though neither helped the Palestinians that much in the intervening years. 1967 saw Israel again trounce the vastly superior (in numbers and equipment) Arab armies and take those areas under Israeli control together with the Golan Heights and the Sinai Desert up to the Suez Canal. Later the Palestinian terrorists plagued Israel and the West with their terrorist acts and the PLO grew to be a substantial force. Remember the Jordanians threw the PLO out after they threatened the stability of the country and Labanon eventually did the same. The history of the animosity between Arab and Jew goes back thousands of years. Recent years have seen Israel cast as the Goliath with the Palestinians as the David (forgive the pun here). However, the history is so convoluted, the intial causes so far back and modern problems rubbing salt into the wound that this problem is not going to reach an easy solution. The butchering of two Israeli soldiers by a crowd after the police (whose custody they were in) failed to protect them was obviously going to receive a prompt and violent Israeli response. Lets hope they can calm the situation down so that both sides can talk - easier for the Israeli's as they have some semblance of control of their troops (though ot always of the settlers), while Arafat appears to have lost what little control he had of the mob. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve The public had been making complaints about the noise, use of shotgun, etc. The person refused to present his shotgun certificate for examination. The police officers present could arrest him if his name and address were in doubt or needed to be verified. My copy of the 1968 Act went walk about some years ago, but what is the power of arrest in the schedule? As I said earlier I'd like to meet this man's solicitor/barrister. He not only avoids his client being convicted of an offence he was apparently guilty of (failing to present a certificate on request) but gains compensation from the force for an arrest that was apparently legal (despite being a little heavy handed if they believed he lived there). However, I wonder if the locals will now move on to the 'noise police' at the local authority to curb this gentleman's activities. Regards Jerry -- A person who fails to give his name and address is liable to a fine of L20 according to the schedule. Failing to produce a certificate I would think would be grounds for arrest for illegal possession so if they arrested him for that, then found out he had a certificate, that would seem a more likely scenario for suing them for wrongful arrest. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry Steve but doesn't the club exemption also cover attendance at ranges other than the club's own on organised club activities (such as a match or training session)? I didn't think the legislation limited the exemption to the Club's 'own' premises. I would have to agree that the exemption does not apply to members own guns kept at their own homes, though some forces have been liberal in their interpretation in that they have allowed allocated Club 'officers' (usually members of the Committee and holders of their own FAC) to hold club guns and ammunition in addition to the Club's own certificate holder. Regards Jerry -- Yes, I think you're right. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd like to meet this persons solicitor/barrister - to fail to produce a SGC or FAC on request of a police officer is an offence of itself. Refusal definitely is! This seems rather similar to the case in Scotland - take them to court and they back off even though the letter of the law is on their side. Though this gentlemans case is interesting in that a governent document, the MacPherson report is being used against them. I wonder if the Cullen Report could be used against them in a similar manner - i.e. they exceeded the recommendations? Regards Jerry -- Section 48 of the Firearms Act 1968: "(1) A constable may demand, from any persom whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which Section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate. (2) If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address. (3) If under this section a person is required to declare to a constable his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address." Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Land Warrior
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Theoretically it would not be too difficult to 'key' each unit to one individual using biometric sensors, disabling the unit if there was no correct signal. Also given frequency hopping techniques and digital encryption it might be days before a correct sequence could be found to re-activate the unit (if at all). Effectively making it useless in a tactical sense. If the wearer was confirmed as killed a remote 'self destruct' could be used to 'fry' the electronics - not as sci-fi as it sounds as the small handheld radios issued to pro-American irregular forces were equipped with a button that burned out the electronics (useful in case of possible capture - unfortunately most apparently used it to ignore orders they didn't want to hear). The main problem with Land Warrior is the total load the soldier will be expected to carry. A complete Land Warrior outfit for 2-3 day operations, including spare batteries, food, ammunition, etc is reckoned at well over a hundred pounds, most of which can't be jettisoned on 'contact' with the enemy as its Land Warrior itself! Without reducing that load substantially or providing vehicles or helicopters for almost all movements a Land Warrior equipped force is going to need to be mighty fit or its not going to move too fast for very long. Additional problems like reliability and waterproofing also add to the problems it faces in the real world. This type of kit needs to be 'soldier proof' and I would have liked to see the support team necessary to keep this platoon in action for the exercise. It was probably larger than the platoon itself! Admittedly this is still experimental and the support numbers will drop as the system is developed but its still going to be a substantial percentage of forces in the field. So what you gain in efficiency of the front line troops is offset by extra support elements and logistics, also expense. They haven't said what each individual 'Land Warrior' outfit will cost but I bet its substantial. Regards Jerry -- It's very expensive, the prototype I saw costed up some time ago was close to six figures if I remember correctly, the one described in the article was a later prototype. I pity the poor SOB who has one of these gizmos and an OICW! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Certificate renewals
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got to agree with Steve and Jonathan here. If you don't have a valid FAC in your possession then you commit an offence - absolute, no defence in law. The fact that you have applied for renewal of the FAC and been assured of it's issue by the police is a mitigation not a defence. Do you trust your local Police? Even if you do its safest to follow advice and ask for a Section 7 permit or lodge the guns and ammunition with an RFD. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Modern Pentathlon
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think Bob Blake will confirm that the Modern Pentathlon events switched to air pistol some years ago. It used to be .22 short rapid fire guns fired on the UIT Dueling/Rapid Fire target but in unusual timings (something like the standard pistol course). Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-New Gun Laws - BBC News
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The BBC News Websites coverage of the Home Office announcement of the proposed new controls on shotguns and air weapons. Regards Jerry Gun laws to be tightened Britain's gun laws are to be tightened with new limits on shotgun ownership, the home office has announced. But, despite the recommendations of a report by the home affairs committee on firearms control, the government held back from introducing a total ban on young people using guns. This is because it would have a serious impact on the UK's ability to compete in future shooting events. Home office minister Charles Clarke said: "If we simply banned young people under the age of 16 from handling guns then we could end up in the position of simply not having sporting activity in this area at all in a few years," The decision follows in the wake of British success in Olympic shooting events. Sporting success Richard Faulds won a gold medal in the men's shooting double trap, and Ian Peel won a silver in the men's shooting trap. Home Secretary Jack Straw also announced that pistol shooting events could be held at the Commonwealth Games in 2002 in Manchester and the Commonwealth Shooting Federation in 2001. But that decision did not have any impact on the existing ban on handguns which followed from the massacre of schoolchildren in Dunblane by Thomas Hamilton, the home office said. Despite these concessions, the new measures have been attacked by the gun lobby. British Shooting Sports Council secretary Pat Johnson said: "It will make it more difficult for us to produce another Richard Faulds by making it harder for youngsters wanting to take up shooting." Britain already had some of the toughest controls on shooting of any country in the world, he said. "The government are talking about tougher regulations but its difficult to know what better regulations we could have unless the police lived with a gun-holder, day and night." 'Good reason' But Mr Clarke said some of the measures unveiled on Wednesday would help curb the development of a "gun culture". "For dramatic examples of this we only have to look to the States. All we are doing is flagging up the need to look at how legitimate shooting activities can continue without developing a gun culture," he said. "I think we are already a long way towards that." The new rules, when introduced, will require shotgun owners to demonstrate "good reason" for needing such a weapon. The power to revoke a shotgun licence would also be given to police. But the home office rejected one of the committee's main recommendations, namely, a licensing system for Britain's four million airguns, on the grounds that it would be too cumbersome, costly and difficult to administer. Main Points New gun regulations Tightening controls on the maximum number of shotguns which could be held on a certificate Requiring two detailed character references with applications for shotgun certificates Possibly allowing the sale of air guns only through registered firearms dealers Introducing a common standard for testing of airguns Possibly banning the sale of imitation firearms to under-18s Comment from Pat Johnson The government are talking about tougher regulations but its difficult to know what better regulations we could have unless the police lived with a gun-holder, day and night Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Mick Gault on the Olympics
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I must disagree with Bob, Mick's average score in UIT Centrefire, Freepistol and Standard Pistol (as well as Air Pistol) were all above 550. I have been shooting next to Mick on at least two occasions when he broke the British UIT Centrefire record. Is it any wonder he can't win a quota place with restrictions on practice! At that level daily practice was the order of the day, Mike Jay one of the Welsh Pistol Squad who won UIT Rapid fire Bronze, Silver and Gold at successive Commonwealth Games used to shoot 2-3 full courses a day in the months leading up to the Games. Even when Mick did win a quota place in one discipline we sent another shooter instead I believe (this was at the last Olympics). Suport for our international shooters is very poor - on one occasion at a Pistol AD Mick was having to sell one of his free pistols to meet the costs of attending a world cup event in Cuba about two months previously. Several of our pistol shooters could have attended but didn't (the overall competitor numbers at some of the Olympic shooting events was pretty low and I can't believe it was because of lackof range space and time). Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Range Safety Certification
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This sounds suspiciously like Joint Services Proposal 202 (JSP 202). The new military specification for a no danger area range. I do not have the full requirements but it does not affect current range safety certificates only new builds and ranges requiring major re-certifcation work, not just the adjustment of calibres and velocities allowed, etc. Piers Helps of the MLAGB proved very helpful when one of my clubs was considering a major improvement project a couple of years ago.
CS: Pol-neighbours protest Olympic medal winners range
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Down in Haverfordwest one of the local residents (newly moved to that property) complained about (1) the noise of the airfield and (2) the noise of the pistol range. The airfield has been in place since at least WW2 (it was an active Fighter Command and Coastal Command station in WW2) though is now only used for light commercial and private flying. The Haverfordwest club range occupies the old machine and cannon testing butts on the edge of the airfield. The funniest part of the story is that this lady bought the house that was originally the Officers Mess for the airfield! The complaints were eventually resolved but not without some severe difficulties in the meantime. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Battle of Britain
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The British solution was much the same - a rubber compound lined the fuel tanks (and I think later the coolant tanks as well). I am told that this is what Linotex Bullet Splash curtains derive from, but I have no evidence to say its true. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-5.56mm miniguns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Once something is in the military inventory it usually hangs around. I suspect 5.56mm miniguns were acquired for use on light vehicles and light helicopters due to the extra weight penalties a 7.62mm mini-gun imposes, also in the volumes a minigun fires against personnel or light skinned vehicles the difference in effect is probably marginal. I have seen several photographs of 5.56 mm mini-guns door-mounted on Gazelles. I believe remote controlled chin mounts were also trialled and might have been purchased. The same for 7.62 mm mini-guns. Certainly the Chinooks have the capability to mount side door mounted mini-guns and stocks of the American mini-guns were purchased with them. Regards Jerry -- I thought 5.56mm miniguns were long since ditched because they don't work properly and no-one could be bothered to invest the money to get them to work. Plus they're 5.56mm, not the best calibre for the intended role. Mike Dillon has recently come up with an improved feeder mechanism for the 7.62 minigun, BTW. I was under the impression only the USAF had bought 5.56mm miniguns in any quantity. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Sierra Leone
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was under the impression that the Gazelle had now been (or was shortly to be) retired. Its a small - 5 seater - helicopter usually manned by a pilot and observer/gunner. Weapons load is fairly limited - 7.62mm machine guns (door mounted on pintles or fixed forward firing), or 7.62mm or 5.56mm mini-guns, rockets or anti-armour missiles. Armour for the crew or aircraft structure is almost non-existent. Regards Jerry -- I thought 5.56 mini-guns had gone the way of the dodo. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Sierra Leone
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sounds more like the supporting helicopters (most likely the Lynx) and the Chinooks were carrying mini-guns and possibly cannon and rockets as well as 7.62mm (this from the media interviews with the Paras). Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Dump the Pump
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now Tuesday evening at 10:30 pm and here in South Wales - mid way between Cardiff and Swansea - there is no fuel at all and there hasn't been for 24 hours. Same is true of Cardiff, Swansea and the valleys. Bread and milk has also run out in many areas as people hav ebeen panic buying. Radio 4 news just carried a report that 5 tankers left the Purfleet depot in Essex - with a police officer in each cab alongside the driver and multiple police cars front and back. Not an average fuel run and at a level of escort that could simply not be maintained by the police for normal deliveries! News from the rest of the country is mixed with nothing leaving other refineries and depots yet. Strange that the first deliveries out are in an area not hit hard yet - the South East/London. Or is this no coincidence given the location of the Government? Regards Jerry -- I thought the emergency order was simply to allow Tony to jump to the front of the queue! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Dump the Pump
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you'll find our direct taxes are high compared to the EU as a whole, while we also pay very high indirect taxes by having one of the highest VAT rates in Europe. Regards Jerry -- We don't have one of the highest VAT rates in the EU, I think only Germany has a lower rate. France and Belgium have higher rates of VAT, but they have much lower rates of excise tax. 23% income tax is one of the lowest in the EU (probably the lowest) but it's not that clear cut as some of the other EU states have lower tax bands for poorer people. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-HO press release
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note that two of the ACPO reps have firearms policy remits within ACPO - One for firearms and one for criminal use of firearms. One wonders why they need to separate the two from a police prospective? Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Sierra Leone Rescue
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Plenty of .50 Browning M2's in evidence - on two separate mounts on some Landrovers. A mix of GPMG's and .50's on others. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-misfeasance
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your comment needs to take into account circumstances. Refusal in the example you gave is a disciplinary offence because it is 'distant'. Should the person be standing in front of you or in easy reach and there is no good reason you can't arrest him then you could be charged with misfeasance or aiding and abetting the original offence, both of which are criminal charges. In either case a PC refusing orders probably has no career prospects. Regards Jerry -- Well, presumably that is irrelevant as it would have to be something pretty serious for him to refuse to follow the order. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We certainly have a few cameras at some busy junctions in Cardiff that are obviously aimed at people jumping the lights on amber and red. Not many though. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The speed camera decision is being appealed apparently. Rememeber this case is not necessarily about speed cameras it is about the wording of the 'Notice of Intended Prosecution'. This means that the police may have to persue the vehicle and detain the driver to gain a prosecution or conviction for any road traffic offence. Who's up for more police chases through urban areas at stupid speeds? Dukes of Hazard style police chases where you can't prosecute them unless you catch them? Speed cameras are intrusive and I firmly believe they are being used as a source of revenue. Several in the Cardiff area are sited to cover the areas just after a major junction (and moving away from it) where there is a dual carriageway that had a 60 MPH speed limit only a few hundred yards away. Such cameras apparently add little to road safety and a lot to the Chancellors take. Regards Jerry -- No-one says the police have to pursue the speeder. What annoys me about the whole thing is this obsession with speeding. There are a million other unsafe things that can be done with a vehicle that are just as big a threat to public safety but I don't see national campaigns to do with them. How about the "parking on double yellow lines at a major junction" camera, or the "doing a U turn in an unsafe place" camera, or any of the other zillion unsafe practices I see people doing every day? I know they do have traffic cameras at major junctions but there is nowhere near the focus on other offences that there is on speeding. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Less Than Lethal Force
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The traditional police shotgun rounds inthe UK have been buckshot and slug, even before the pump action shotgun (in the days when they carried 20 inch barrelled doubles). I suspect these make up the bulk of the shotgun rounds in the police armoury now. Also CS gas shotgun rounds operate at closer to slug velocities (one o ftheir advantages is that they will go through windows at reasonable ranges). So if you got it wrong and fired a CS cartridge at someone the mess between a penetrating wound and the CS crystals is going to be pretty nasty! Remember concentrated CS crystals burn people very badly and an internal wound from such a cartridge is likely to cause a lot of medical problems. Regards Jerry -- My experience with the police and their shotguns is that the "slug" load they currently use is designed for forcing open doors or puncturing car tyres. I don't think the shotgun is currently used in the UK for the delivery of CS, and beanbag rounds aren't used either (yet). Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-misfeasance
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would have to check but the charge of misfeasance in public office is probably in one of the Criminal Law Acts No just the disciplinary offence of failing to report for duty. If he was ordered to go there and either refused or just didn't go then the offence is more serious, neglect of or dereliction of duty or refusing to obey a reasonable order. Your example isn't a particularly good one as handling seized property is a fairly mundane affair. Misfeasance requires that he be required to act in a certain way while carrying out his duties and he does not, should he say deliberately under count the cigarrettes so as to reduce the crime then that might be considered misfeasance. Misfeasance is more usually used against local officials or civil servants who misuse their delegated powers and its a very unusual offence to resort to unless its linked with other (usually criminal) charges. Regards Jerry -- So what I postulated originally is usually true - if a PC refuses to follow an order he commits no criminal act. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Lawful Orders
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unfortunately police in several areas scored own goals during the hand-in. One of our local forces had the firearms team, complete with body armour and holstered handguns, manning the hand in office. Intimidating? Yes several people I know who went through there thought so. When one of them handling the paperwork commented on the large number of variations, including gallery rifles and BP pistols - along the lines of 'Well I'm not sure what WE will allow you'. His reply along the lines of 'Well I thought it was the law that said what I was allowed', was met with the 'don't get stroppy with us sunshine' response. Other friends and aquaintances have reported many inappropriate comments from so called firearms trained officers who obviously knew very little or did not consider their comments before they made them. Considering one of our local police firearms team had reportedly organised a sweepstake - the first team member to shoot someone getting the pot. Apparently they eventually realised their mistake in setting the thing up in the first place and reportedly gave the money to charity. I wonder what the media would have made of this if they had shot someone? Regards Jerry -- The local lot did the same thing at West Bromwich police station. They had a lot of complaints. At HQ in the centre of Birmingham it was a lot more relaxed. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-ECHR
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding the 'misuse' of the ECHR some of the ones that have come to light or might be tried in the near future (according to the press and some comments from the legal profession) :- Car owners refusing to declare who was driving when an offence was caught on camera. Currently it is an offence to fail to declare who was driving if a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution' is served on the car owner. A judge or magistarte in the North of England or Midlands believed this might infringe the ECHR provisions of self incrimination. OK we may not like speed cameras but the effect of this would be to make most Road Traffic Law unenforcable - you might identify the vehicle but the owner would be under no obligation to say who was driving when for instance the the vehicle was used in a bank raid or a serious road traffic offence and the owner could prove he was elsewhere. An extreme example perhaps but one that could easily happen. A convicted murderer who met and married his current wife while he was in prison (she was a prison visitor or somesuch) is appealing against the Home Office and a lower court not allowing him to father a child by artificial insemination using the ECHR provisions on the right to a family. The right to self expression provisions might make it legal for school children to successfully prosecute schools for being forced to wear school uniform. Some are even saying that it could be used by prisoners to reject prison uniforms. Apparently the Lord Chancellors office have put aside L60 million for cases under the ECHR. In Scotland people are saying yes but only 13 of several hundred cases have been lost by the Crown, however how much time and effort went into fighting those cases? OK much of this is people fighting cases to see how the courts interprete the results but some of it is already stretching credibility. Regards Jerry -- Well, if they won 87 cases probably not much as they had costs awarded to them. Out of all the cases you mention only one has been decided, and I personally think that was the right decision. I find that speed cameras are excessively intrusive, and it's only a short step away from the police seeing something going on in a private residence with a CCTV (e.g. in a city centre which backs onto an estate or something) and saying that the person must identify themselves if they happened to be starting a bonfire or something which is banned. (Or cleaning your shotgun, and the CCTV operator misidentifies it as a machinegun). If the police pursued the driver and pulled him over, then they would identify him no problem. If they saw smoke coming from the garden and went to interview the householder, they would identify him no problem. Article 6 of the ECHR is one of the best pieces of legislation ever to take effect in this country, not least because the grossly unfair appeals process under the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order is illegal under it. Speed cameras turn due process on its head. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Anonymity etc
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think one of our other contributors provided that one - misfeasance in public office as the criminal charge and neglect of duty as the disciplinary offence. Should it be a more direct failure to uphold the law, say a police officer deliberately standing aside to allow an assault then they could also be charged as an accessory even though they took no active part. In such an example their failure to intervene would be sufficient as they had a sworn duty to intervene. Regards Jerry -- "misfeasance in public office" - what Act is that under? Say IG knew that tomorrow he had to go and help inventory a pile of seized cigarettes in some town or other, and he didn't want to do it because he objects to cigarette taxes. So he stays in bed and doesn't show up for work. What offence is that? Misfeasance for not showing up? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Anonymity etc
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember most of the laws enacted after 1936 were in effect edicts from the Nazi party as parliament (the Riechstag) was not debating and passing the laws. What the Nazis did within Germany was suspect legally. What they did in the occupied territories was covered by the Geneva and Hague conventions and the accepted standards of war and clearly illegal. What should also be remembered was the German military code made failure to obey any order a capital offence, on the battlefield punishable by summary execution. The German ethos of obeying the law is so deep seated that even today you find pedestrians waiting at a red light at a German light controlled crossing even when there are no cars coming! The idea of obeying the 'law' is deep seated in most of us. However as IG pointed out when does one decide that a law is illegal or immoral, the ECHR gives us some guidance but already some ridiculous examples of the ECHR being 'misused' are getting into the press. Regards Jerry -- Such as? Anyway, I'm not suggesting that every single Nazi could say what he did was legal, however many of them could. Gypsies had effectively the same rights as farm animals prior to the Nazis coming to power, so the Nazis could essentially do what they pleased with them under the pre-existing law. Many pretty onerous laws were passed in Germany prior to the Nazis coming to power, in part expressly to stop them coming to power, however that backfired because when they did come to power a lot of the police state they wanted was already in place. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-West Mids armed patrols
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do West Midlands Police really think that scattered checkpoints will catch armed criminals and organised drug gangs? I'll take a bet that both had the checkpoints tagged for avoidance 5 minutes after they were set up - the joys of the mobile phone! These checkpoints are a public message that the police are acting against armed crime and drug gangs, especially if there are TV reports and statements to support this. However, I'll bet most members of the public are more than a little wary of armed police deployed like that. Regards Jerry -- The purpose wasn't to catch drug gangs or organised criminals, it was to stop muggers. There have been several muggings in Handsworth where firearms have been used. Remember the milkman shot in the back awhile ago, or the kid shot dead outside the nightclub? There was only one recorded mugging in the patrolled areas while the checkpoints were in place, usually there are 12 reported to the police. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-legal responsibilities
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thing is we were and are some of the most law abiding citizens in the country. Remember the march from Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square? The police escorted us there (basically directing traffic) and then all but a very few left, could you imagine that happening with most demonstrations? Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-arwen
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Given the ever increasing police deployment of firearms I suspect the Arwen would be less looked down on now. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Anonymity etc
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is illegal for the police to obey illegal orders yes but once a law is on the statute books it is not illegal to enforce it. Remember much that was prosecuted at Nuremberg were actions that were against the Geneva and Hague conventions on the conduct and practice of war, however the 'Allies' also came up with some interesting legal concepts such as 'it was illegal to wage aggressive war'. These legal concepts were more than a little dubious even though we were using them against people who were guilty (in our eyes) of some pretty heinous crimes. If the police and military in the UK (or when operating abroad) obeyed an order which was obviously illegal (such as to murder or torture people who were obviously non-combatants) then the defence of 'only obeying orders' is no defence and they would be charged as a principle in the crime. If the British military or police were enforcing laws that were on the statute books and enforcing them in a 'reasonable' manner, where reasonable means they stayed within the law as they understood it then 'obeying a lawful order' is indeed a defence. The agreement that the law is unreasonable is one for the courts to decide. The police have some discretion in enforcing the law but that is at the margins (e.g. cautioning a driver doing 35 MPH in a 30 limit) rather than a total interpretation of the law. Locally we have one road that has 'accidentally' been made a 30 MPH limit and the police must enforce that until it is amended. Regards Jerry -- What _crime_ does a police officer commit (as opposed to a disciplinary offence) if he refuses to apply a law? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-oops again
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] One 'military' storage facility lay inside a sub-division where I served as a police officer. They were constantly reporting items missing. Quite often these are audit or inventory errors. Remember the fire at Radway Green in the early 1980's. After the fire they realised they disn't know what they really had in store and that a full audit hadn't been carried out for years. They estimated they were missing some 200 tons of small arms ammunition (mainly 7.62mm and 9mm), plus hundreds of the weapons chambered for these same rounds! Friends with military connections constantly have stories of annual audits where weapons, ammunition, even major items like tanks and APCs can't be accounted for. The Australian idea is obviously a ploy to make purchasing a gun as difficult as possible. The added costs of purchasing 'demonstration samples' which can never be sold seems like an undue restraint of trade. The idea that once bought they can never be sold, even though they are the dealers legal property and must be surrendered to the police for destruction seems utterly crazy. Perhaps the Australian government would like to do the same with cars and see what the auto industry says in very vocal terms! One work around presumably the dealers could order guns for customers who then take delivery and immediately sell the gun back to the dealer, or would Customs take a dim view of this? Regards Jerry -- That is the whole point, as far as I can tell. How much power does Australian Customs have? Under the Australian Constitution power is devolved to the States to a much greater degree than for example in the US or Germany. I cannot fathom how the Australian Federal Government can say that the Customs power extends to the sale of an item domestically at some distant future point, especially when it will likely be an intra-State sale. Surely that is the juristiction of the State or territorial Government? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Should we vote for Chief Constables?
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] How and why there were changes I don't know. Perhaps the Police College web site or the Home Office can shed some light on this. As for the appointed Chief Constables being effective, that's a matter for heated debate. I believe there were many cases of nepotism, incompetence and lack of management skill that suggested that career police officers would do a better job, that was certainly the case until they became more of a political lobby which is a fairly recent phenomenon. About the time the Home Office stopped issuing directives and instructions and started issuing 'guidance'. To describe the current graduate entry scheme as a sandwich course is a bit far of the mark. The calibre of entrant is high and selection is tough (the equivalent of officer entry to the armed forces), while they get at least a year on the streets doing a real police officers job. From there on they accelerate to Inspector rank so much faster than normal they might as well be direct recruits to the rank - when I was a PC in a provincial force it took 7-10 years to reach Sargent if you were lucky, good Sargents made inspector in another 10 years if they were lucky. As I said before the graduate entrant makes it in 4-5 even in the provinces. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police guns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The problem is many UK police do have problems hitting the target at 10 yards as we have seen demonstarted several times. Also the carbine is a better intermediate weapon than the shotgun with innocent bystanders around. Well trained police marksmen with pistols can do the job on routine patrol but as Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan and Massad Ayoob have all said in one form or another - when deliberately going into an shooting situation one needs to be well prepared, the carbine, rifle or shotgun in addition to the pistol with heavier body armour and specialist items as options. Rather worrying that any of our police forces are sending out police officers on patrol routinely armed. However, it demonstartes how badly the situation has deteriorated in some parts of the UK. Regards Jerry -- I've said it before, I'll say it again - if police officers cannot hit the target at ten yards with a pistol, what makes you think they can do it with an MP5? I used to train security guards and a few cops in Florida, the qualification course is the standard NRA one at 3, 7, 15 and 25 yards. It did take time to get them competent at 25 but that IMO was a purely academic exercise to get their certification. Ten yards is virtually point-blank. It's the minimum range allowed on most MoD approved ranges because it's so close. Plus, I point out that ACPO themselves currently say that 70% of shots are misses at ranges out to ten yards, presumably mostly with the MP5 already. Teaching people how to clean their guns was more difficult than how to hit the target at ten yards. I appreciate under stress it is a lot more difficult, gross motor movements and so on, but having an MP5 is no real advantage at such close range IMO. (Other than you've got more bullets). In fact I think it is more difficult because you need more time to pick up the sights and shoulder the gun. On the subject of hostages, both West Mids shootings have been the shooting of hostage takers, one with a knife to the throat of a check-out girl in a supermarket, the other with a gun to the head of his wife in Kingstanding. The one in the supermarket was by an officer armed with a _pistol_ not sure about the one in Kingstanding. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Anonimity, etc.
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I must disagree with Jim as most Civil Servants drafting legislation or briefing to politicians constantly try to bring out the pro and cons of a situation and the legal ramifications of various options. The Freedom of Information proposals are causing a lot of concern at persent in Civil Service circles, one of the reasons being that what is now confidential briefing to Ministers will fairly quickly be available to the public on request or itself be published. The defence of many politicians who said 'I didn't know' or 'I didn't realise' will be lost as the very materials they saw (with their signature/initials on them) will be published for all to see. However as you say some of our politicians are very dim witted, some I have met (from several of the major and minor parties) should not be let out without a minder. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Gill
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I very much doubt members of the FCC could be described as Crown Servants, they probably fall into the category of retained consultants. Trying to take a police officer to court on similar grounds is also likely to be impractical as by a quirk of organisation they are local governemnt staff rather than Crown Servants, their authority is drawn from the crown but not their employment. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Hague Convention
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] CS an CN were definately used in Vietnam by the American forces. Its the lethal gases that are banned from military use. Regards Jerry -- The Soviets used lethal gas in Afghanistan, so much for rules. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Commonwealth Games
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Range Staff for the Games will be predominantly UIT judges of various qualifications, they have to be because of the nature of the competition. Regards Jerry -- You mean ISSF judges! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Foreign Forces Section 5 authority
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does anyone know which specific legal provision allows foreign military personnel to bring their service rifles in for the service rifle events at Bisley? Steve. Foreign military forces are exempt from the Firearms Act by virtue of the same arrangements as our own forces, I believe its covered under one of the Army Acts. As regards the right to shoot at the Commonwealth Games unfortunately you must have an invitation to shoot as part of a National squad so the idea of all of us applying would have little merit as all the applications would fall at the firsr hurdle - no invitation to shoot. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Should we vote for Chief Constables
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Several different points here :- Until after WW2 Chief Constables were local landed gentry, ex-military or similar appointments. Almost none were or had been serving police officers. The Trenchard Scheme was a 1930's innovation I believe that took people of high intellect straight into investigative and management roles in the Police. The Trenchard scheme was replaced by the Direct Graduate Entrant over 30 years ago. Here the aspiring graduate had to first be accepted onto the scheme (in the early 80's there were only some 40 places in the whole of the UK and competition and selection were fierce), serve for two years as a PC and pass their Sargents Examination at first or second attempt. Having done this they went to Bramshill Police College for a year and returned to their force as an Acting Inspector. This meant that a 25-26 year old with only 4 years police experience but a successful graduate entrant could be commanding a Sub Division in a rural force, much to the chagrin of seasoned seargents and PCs - some old enough to be their fathers. I don't know how many direct entry places are available today but I suspect its much more. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Police a 'military' force?
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not quite true the British police are and always have been an armed force (most of the time its been the staff - AKA truncheon - though the original Robert Peel constables carried swords). A quick look at the Police Act 1964 makes you realise that the laws and regulations applied to police officers are more akin to the military than the civil service or local government. Remember a Chief Constable exercises a lot of control on the life of any police officer, on or off duty. This includes authorising where they might live and even who they can marry! Let alone discharge of debts, etc. For many years the police have been part of our community however in more recent years the swing to a more 'militarised' or perhaps 'paramilitary' style of organisation, equipment and demeanour has occured. As a trainee constable I was always taught that we policed by consent, now in many areas the police appear to be almost policing by coercion, not that many yet but its spreading. I bet most gress roots police officers don't like it though even when I was a probationary PC there were some who regarded panda cars as reconaissance vehicles and the vans as troop carriers. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police guns
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mas Ayoob reckoned the pistol calibre carbine was a better police weapon in most situations than a handgun - he said it in at least one Handgunner (UK) article while discussing such things. Given his experience I tend to think he had a valid point of view. I also found MP5's or the HK94 very easy to handle, fast and accurate. Also when involved in searches in confined spaces an MP5 is not too large to handle in most circumstances. Regards Jerry -- He also said in an article in Combat Handguns that a Beretta 92FS with a ten inch ported barrel and 20-round magazine was the perfect "home defence" gun which sounds a bit contradictory to me. It's not that the MP5 is too large, it's why use a bigger gun than you have to? A pistol weighs less, is easier to carry, is easier to move around a house with, etc. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Hague Convention
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Hague and Generva convenions specifically exclude police or internal security forces from the ban on expanding projectiles. It would therefore be legal to use hollowpoints in Northern Ireland, however the political fall out would be so great no one was likely to authorise it! Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Less Than Lethal Force
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hasn't someone done some work on a bean bag round for a baton gun? That would appear to offer possibilities even against armed criminals. Regards Jerry -- I think baton guns are a waste of time because they are single shot, or should I say "single miss"! LAPD use pump-action shotguns which seems a better launch platform. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Poisoned Bullets
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Otto Skorzany, the Head of the 'Special Forces' in Hitlers Germany, was accused of using such ammunition. However, it was found at the Nuremberg Trails that more often than not these rounds were issued by the Germans for suicide rather than assassination. Apparently the poisoned bullet was based on a design captured from a Russian assassination team and were very effective. This was reported in the Charles Whiting book 'Kommando Extraordinary'. I find the idea of the poisoned bullet for executing prisoners rather strange. The usual German and Russian methodology was more down to earth - shooting the prisoner in the head from behind at point blank range. On the Eastern Front the idea of the rules of war and the Geneva Convention were ignored by both sides. Regards Jerry -- I have a book on 9mm ammunition that has a cutaway drawing of the poison ammo, it's quite a complicated design as I recall. I suppose you could describe anyone shot with a gun as dying from a sudden case of lead poisoning! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Olympic shooters lobby for easing of handgun ban
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mick Gault took several medals last time (five Golds I think) - and they had to mention his achievement on Sports Personality of the Year! What better publicity for the sport. Personally having listened to Dr Mick North and John Hoare debate this issue on Radio 4's Today programme the other morning, with John Humphries as the host, I think John Hoare carried the argument. How, simply by saying the Home Secretary was to be formally approached, however what was not said was that in the original debates in Parliament the Home Secretary had already said this would be justthe kind of case for a dispensation. Mick North sounded lame in places and almost half asleep. He was speaking on behalf of GCN, perhaps John Hoare should have gone for the jugular and used the evidence from the Home Affairs Select Committee to say how many members GCN had compared to the numbers the GBTSF represents (John Hoare was representing them that day). But perhaps not as Mick North was introduced as a spokesman of GCN and the father of a young girl who died at Dunblane, if it had been Gillian Marshall-Andrews the argument would have got a bit more heated. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
