Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 09:03:37AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Hi all, I apologise in advance for sending a negative email, but… Le Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 02:32:38PM +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : Debian Pure Blends16 votes Debian Spins 14 votes Integrated Debian Projects12 votes Debian Slice 12 votes http://doodle.ch/ggey86bvqnmcnuyb I personnaly dislike Blend, but will not oppose if I am only part of a small minority. Before this discussion, I did not know what a blend is, apart that it is used for whiskies. I checked the dictionary, and its fundamental meaning is a mixture of different things. I strongly recommend to try to write down an explanation of what a Debian Pure Blend is I coined the name Debian Pure Blends. Later same day (mostly during our walk back from the dinner restaurant) I refined it to be the _marketing_ term, tied with the _technical_ term Debian-packaged, Debian-configured and Debian-distributed. The marketing is intended primarily to be catchy and secondary to not point clearly towards something with an well-defined other meaning. The technical term is intended primarily to define clearly what it consists and secondary to allow for a catchy abbreviation: The marketing name should have no abbreviation, but the technical term could be written DDD (playing with the SPARS code[1]). One could even expand it further, e.g dscribe currently released Skolelinux distribution is an AAA: it contains alternative packages not officially released in the same packaging branch as is the main source of packages, it configures some of those packages in ways forbidden by Debian policy, and it is distributed on non-Debian media. ...so it is blending (a.k.a. composed of) Debian, but is not pure. Hope that clarifies. - Jonas [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_Code - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjrG24ACgkQn7DbMsAkQLjq7ACdH/SuQQE8jsBzSdS4qdn7Vl3C fjAAnR0k3kYTwiDGnTER//xYGNw39YpQ =tRL0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Charles Plessy wrote: Distribution Debian pure mélange is unfortunately un-catchy in French, and so will it be in other translation (I already shiver at the idea of having a Burendu distribution in Japanese). I really wish we could have a more intercultural word. But isn't Blend (untranslated) actually quite international. French Wikipedia page knows Blend [1] and I'm always wondering whether translating the term is a good idea at all. Translating the definition is a must, but a name is a name is a name and probably should stay untranslated (especially if the term just exists unchanged at least in several European languages to my knowledge and I guess because of the connection to tea, whiskey and tobaco with good chances in other languages as well). Or let's solve the problem another way and make our CDDs based on stable+backports. Then it would be a real blend (assemblage in French), and bleeding edge :) I would love if we could keep this potentially flamish topic out of this thread ... (not that I'd regard it uninteresting - but this thread is complicated enough and should not be spoiled by other things). Kind regards Andreas. [1] http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blend -- http://fam-tille.de
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Charles Plessy wrote: « Un blend ou blended whisky est un whisky issu de l'assemblage de whiskies d’une ou de plusieurs distilleries. Il peut contenir des whiskies de différentes années, de différentes origines (single malt, bourbons, ryes) mélangés à du whisky de grain voire de l’alcool neutre. » OK, I've read the German version ... ;-) It is saying that a blend: - Can be a mix from different vendors, As I said: If you regard different Debian maintainers as vendors it fits - if you regard Debian, Ubuntu, Xandros, etc. as different vendors it will fail. But any name without a definition that describes what we mean will fail. - Can be a mix between whisky and white alcool. Well, if it tastes nicely - why not? If we identify Debian as a brewery and our CDDs as whiskys, Blend in French conveys a completely wrong message. Well, I do not think that CDDs reached nearly the importance that the relation to these subprojects would qualify for an identification based on this - I think in a questionaire amongst DDs what CDDs are would reveal depressing results. I may be overcautious, but the conclusion I want to give is: test the name in real life before adopting it. Any idea how to test the name? Any suggestion what to do next? Kind regards Andreas. BTW, what came into my mind as well: In how far is RedHat a hat and why is it red? How human is Ubuntu? Mandrake is a poisonous plant. What at all means Xandros? What is so shiny on Sun? Should we rather follow the Deb-Ian idea and take DebIan KatAnds (well my wife is named Katrin so Kat+And) - and no I really do not mean this honest - I just wonder how difficult the science to find a name might be and what discussion was done for inventing the ones above and many others ... even micro and soft seems to work for names - I guess nobody has thought it in the beginning. -- http://fam-tille.de
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
Le Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:24:15PM +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : But isn't Blend (untranslated) actually quite international. French Wikipedia page knows Blend [1] and I'm always wondering whether translating the term is a good idea at all. Hi Andreas, the link you sent actually supports my point of view: « Un blend ou blended whisky est un whisky issu de l'assemblage de whiskies d’une ou de plusieurs distilleries. Il peut contenir des whiskies de différentes années, de différentes origines (single malt, bourbons, ryes) mélangés à du whisky de grain voire de l’alcool neutre. » It is saying that a blend: - Can be a mix from different vendors, - Can be a mix between whisky and white alcool. The article concludes that many breweries mostly product unbranded whisky for JB and Ballantine's. If we identify Debian as a brewery and our CDDs as whiskys, Blend in French conveys a completely wrong message. I can't judge for English... I may be overcautious, but the conclusion I want to give is: test the name in real life before adopting it. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:43:41PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Le Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 10:18:54AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit : The marketing is intended primarily to be catchy and secondary to not point clearly towards something with an well-defined other meaning. Distribution Debian pure mélange is unfortunately un-catchy in French, The term blend is not suposed to mean what comes out of a blender, but rather was is in a bag of tea: A delicately composed mixture. Hope that clarifies, and helps find suitable terms in other languages. Or let's solve the problem another way and make our CDDs based on stable+backports. Then it would be a real blend (assemblage in French), and bleeding edge :) I believe the english term of that is mixture. And indeed that is the _kind_ of blend intended, but beware: CDDs are about mixing packages within a distribution, not mixing distributions (or distribution channels, i.e. mixing stuff from stable and testing). Also, backports are not official Debian, only packaged/signed by official Debian developers, so are not pure. And a comment about slice: Some CDDs might only cut a slice of the full Debian, but others do more/different internal customizations than that: CDDs is massaging (i.e. one or more of subselecting, preconfiguring and redistributing/repackaging) a single official Debian release. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjrPGsACgkQn7DbMsAkQLjgpACgmoSRmghnsunxi3Tbk1HgXlV3 sBIAn0Wg1JF/tZetdnMcoMNOLemTLueP =LmVQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
Le Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 10:18:54AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit : The marketing is intended primarily to be catchy and secondary to not point clearly towards something with an well-defined other meaning. Hi Jonas, Distribution Debian pure mélange is unfortunately un-catchy in French, and so will it be in other translation (I already shiver at the idea of having a Burendu distribution in Japanese). I really wish we could have a more intercultural word. Or let's solve the problem another way and make our CDDs based on stable+backports. Then it would be a real blend (assemblage in French), and bleeding edge :) Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 09:03:37AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: I apologise in advance for sending a negative email, but… hardly seems negative, but a valid critique... Le Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 02:32:38PM +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : Debian Pure Blends16 votes Debian Spins 14 votes Integrated Debian Projects12 votes Debian Slice 12 votes http://doodle.ch/ggey86bvqnmcnuyb I personnaly dislike Blend, but will not oppose if I am only part of a small minority. Before this discussion, I did not know what a blend is, apart that it is used for whiskies. I checked the dictionary, and its fundamental meaning is a mixture of different things. I strongly recommend to try to write down an explanation of what a Debian Pure Blend is and to translate it in a few languages before adopting it: I personnaly do not know how to explain that it is a mixture that contains only one ingredient. this was my primary concern with it as well.. blend intrinsicly means mixing things together.. though i eventually conceeded to it for lack of anything significantly better. the Pure in Debian Pure Blends meaning purely debian. this allows for blends that aren't pure, possibly containing things from other sources... Contaminated Debian Blends, for example :) with all the energy going into naming this concept (multiple years of discussion), i think it is more important to find an acceptible name than a perfect one. though i'd rather have a Slice of pie. :) live well, vagrant -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 05:49:58PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: - I do not understand the relation between rotation and custom derived distribution. Le Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 01:24:48PM +1300, Chris Bannister a écrit : Google spin doctor Spin (public relations) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In public relations, spin is a usually pejorative term signifying a heavily biased portrayal in one's own favor of an event or situation; it is a euphemism for propaganda. OK, now I understand why I do not like it… Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
Le Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 09:54:28AM +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : All other suggestions got less than 8.4 (70% of 12) votes and thus would be below the limit I suggested for a potential condorset voting in case we have no clear winner (I would not regard the result above as a clear winning situation). Hi all, I suggest that we keep using doodle for the brainstorming to eliminate unpopular choices, but that we then use selectricity for the Condorcet voting. Its voting engine is free software and the rest is promised to be released under the AGPLv3, and it is made by a DD. http://selectricity.org/ Doodle is very convenient, but this is one more tool that makes us dependant on non-free software. Also, I had no time to participate in the discussion (back from holidays). I would like to make the following comments: - Acronyms are often shuffled when translating from one western language to another. - Trendy words in English are difficult to translate, and their meaning can change with time. My personnal conclusion is to suggest a dictionary work that has not too much background. For instance, Rainbow. A Debian rainbow distribution would be translated as a distribution arc-en-ciel in French, et cætera. The rainbow colors all derive from the same thing, and we do not need to enter into more details with the name if we want to keep it short. I am not saying that rainbow is THE thing, but althout I agree that we should find an end to the debate, I would prefer to see more alternative to the 3-letter acronym concept. Also, seeking for very large consensus is really important, as votings divide communauties when they are too close to 49/51. Lastly, here is why I dislike spin and slice. - Slice suggests that not all is available. - I do not understand the relation between rotation and custom derived distribution. I will reflect this email on the wiki later. Have a nice day, PS: or how about sur mesure :) -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 05:49:58PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Le Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 09:54:28AM +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : All other suggestions got less than 8.4 (70% of 12) votes and thus would be below the limit I suggested for a potential condorset voting in case we have no clear winner (I would not regard the result above as a clear winning situation). Hi all, I suggest that we keep using doodle for the brainstorming to eliminate unpopular choices, but that we then use selectricity for the Condorcet voting. Its voting engine is free software and the rest is promised to be released under the AGPLv3, and it is made by a DD. Let's start a vote on whether AGPLv3 is non-free ;-) After all, you can't honestly think that we'll actually try to do something as silly as answering an anceint question from a month ago about some name for some thingie. -- Tzafrir Cohen icq#16849755 jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +972-50-7952406 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xorcom.com iax:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tzafrir -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Tille wrote: The other option would be that we remove all votes (== restart the poll). Because I'd consider it inacceptable to restart several times I'd suggest to wait until next Monday (I'll be offline from Friday 12:00 to Sunday evening) whether we get additional suggestions. The second poll would run under the condition: no further additions allowed any more. So we have time until Sunday evening to find a way to adjust a vote - if not we restart on Monday morning. Given the length and content of this thread - i'm fine with the suggestions and voted a couple of minutes ago. Kind regards Florian Maier -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjhQAUACgkQLr//NZ0yJvOXhQCffYMbARA/SQ3FPlOMtqT1BRsH YU4An0iZ5liJgVIv94g3U8o9XMcGYRXX =6gJh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 05:49:58PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Lastly, here is why I dislike spin and slice. - Slice suggests that not all is available. - I do not understand the relation between rotation and custom derived distribution. Google spin doctor -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Sir Stephen Henry Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Paul Wise wrote: You are missing none of the above, which is my preferred option (I think just calling Debian Debian is fine). Well, therre are two answers from my side: 1. (rather a question) Do you want to tell me with this mail that I should add non of the above to the poll. Honestly I've thought about this, but I decided to leave it out because this option makes only sense in condorset votings. And yes, when preparing the pool I feeled urgend need for rating like in condorset method. IMHO it is reasonable to watch what happens. If there is a really clear winner then we can decide. If not I volunteer to try another means. 2. I'm personally perfectly against only Debian. The rationale behind this is that I want to build a stronger connection between groups inside Debian who might share the same techniques and gain from synergy effects. If we fail to make this clear by a common name people will continue to reinvent wheels inside Debian and chances of higher success of these projects are wasted. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Vagrant Cascadian wrote: well, i really think Integrated Debian Distribution is worth considering. or Integrated Debian Subdistribution. though i see some weakness in the term Distribution, i don't see it as the primary problem for CDD, rather the Custom was the primary issue. maybe not... In case you have any proposal currently not on the poll but want me to add it, please use the syntax: Andreas please add the name ... to the poll. and i prefer Integrated Debian Projects over Debian Integrated Projects. something about it just makes more sense to me. So well, you and me are the only ones who voted positively for this item and I would call this a missinterpretation of your proposal and so I changed the poll to this suggestion. The chance for missinterpretation is drastically reduced if people use the syntax above. One technical question: I did not really found an official way to change your vote (which has to be done once the poll changes by adding / fixing an option). I was clever enough to store the link from my first voting which included some participantName=Andreas+TilleparticipantId=... credential=... arguments. This worked for me - but I have no idea what to do if you do not have the credential argument (the two above are not enough). it is an shame that flavour is also spelled flavor, as i think Debian Integrated Flavor or Integrated Debian Flavour ... really hits home with the Integrated clearly defining that it's part of Debian, and Flavour making it a nice food related analogy. Debian Integrated Focus ? (or my usual Integrated first preference..) Please see above. IMHO we do not need more random suggestions. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 08:44:26AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: In case you have any proposal currently not on the poll but want me to add it, please use the syntax: Andreas please add the name ... to the poll. Andreas please add Integrated Debian Distribution to the poll. Andreas please add Integrated Debian Focus to the poll. Andreas please add Integrated Debian Flavor to the poll. Please see above. IMHO we do not need more random suggestions. well, probably not. but i can't resist. live well, vagrant -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: Andreas please add the name Debian subproject to the poll. Andreas please add the name Debian tuned to the poll. Done. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
Hi, On Wednesday 24 September 2008 21:34, Andreas Tille wrote: Andreas please add the name ... to the poll. Andreas please add the name ... to the poll. should we restart the poll or should I vote as Holger Levsen, 2nd vote? :-) regards, Holger pgp8N7YWNDGTj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Holger Levsen wrote: should we restart the poll or should I vote as Holger Levsen, 2nd vote? :-) I'd prefer that somebody tries to find a way to adjust a vote. I can not imagine that there is no such way. I remember that I once participated in a pool about the date of a meeting where somebody found an option to adjust a vote. The other option would be that we remove all votes (== restart the poll). Because I'd consider it inacceptable to restart several times I'd suggest to wait until next Monday (I'll be offline from Friday 12:00 to Sunday evening) whether we get additional suggestions. The second poll would run under the condition: no further additions allowed any more. So we have time until Sunday evening to find a way to adjust a vote - if not we restart on Monday morning. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wednesday 24 September 2008 23:09, Andreas Tille wrote: So we have time until Sunday evening to find a way to adjust a vote - if not we restart on Monday morning. Sounds good. pgp7N2URGkrFg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
Hi, On Tuesday 23 September 2008 21:38, Andreas Tille wrote: Consensus doesnt mean everybody agrees. At least, rough consensus doesnt mean that :-) OK, so I hope doodle is a good tool to reach this. I started a poll at http://doodle.ch/ggey86bvqnmcnuyb Cool, thank you! What I also really like is that you labeled it a poll and didn't set a timeline ;-) , (To clarify myself a bit about this: I also think this issue is important and should be resolved rather soon, I just don't think a static timeline helps if followed blindly :-) And to answer/address Jonas' comment on the poll: _if_ we vote, I'm all for using Condorcet method - if we vote. I really prefer consensus :-) (but/and I also think the secretary of this vote should decide :) The name is targeted at thingy 1 of the CDDNamingProposals - the poll just leaves room for 512 characters so there was no chance to copy the full text of the thingy 1 specification and I used the explanation which was used for CDD on [2]. Maybe that info can be added there as well. (That its thingy1 only. I'd suggest The new term should only include CDDs which are 100% debian.) regards, Holger pgp0flic9qanQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 3:38 AM, Andreas Tille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, so I hope doodle is a good tool to reach this. I started a poll at http://doodle.ch/ggey86bvqnmcnuyb You are missing none of the above, which is my preferred option (I think just calling Debian Debian is fine). -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Name poll (Was: New name: Call for opinions)
On Wed, 2008-09-24 at 11:15 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 3:38 AM, Andreas Tille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, so I hope doodle is a good tool to reach this. I started a poll at http://doodle.ch/ggey86bvqnmcnuyb You are missing none of the above, which is my preferred option (I think just calling Debian Debian is fine). -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise Has anyone ever considered the use of the word 'Tuned'? As in Debian Tuned or Tweaked a specific way. Debian Custom Systems was always a decent idea as well. well I dunno. It probably sounds peculiar. -Matthew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
