Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Nicolas George]

Le sextidi 6 thermidor, an CCXXV, Erik Christiansen a écrit :
> When two meters back from a big monitor, with wireless keyboard to
> bridge the gap, and eyes which have made 63 trips around the big shiny
> yellow thing, those tiny flyspecks are worth nothing in terms of user
> interface.

I feel your pain. I myself handle my mouse with chopsticks, so GUI
buttons with a size of less than 400 pixels in both directions are worth
nothing as well. Applications defaults must fit everybody's needs,
including mine. It is unacceptable that I have to fiddle a bit with the
configuration to get something usable with chopsticks. The developers
who decided otherwise should be sent to never-ending hell.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.07.17 22:00, Martin Read wrote:
> There seem to be some other changes to the upstream glade file between
> version 2.0 and version 3.0, which have some indirect effect on the window
> geometry. Both versions have a nominal default width of 500, yet in the
> version in Debian 8 the window would come up wider than that on my system
> (as noted, it would write a window width of 780 into its configuration
> file).
> 
> In Debian 9, it comes up at 500x400 and only three of the tabs are
> immediately visible, but there are small arrows at either end of the tab
> bar, letting you move right and left along it - which is not a particularly
> obvious feature if you're not expecting it.

When two meters back from a big monitor, with wireless keyboard to
bridge the gap, and eyes which have made 63 trips around the big shiny
yellow thing, those tiny flyspecks are worth nothing in terms of user
interface. There should not be hidden secret panels.

It has now been confirmed that older Debian versions provided all 5
tabs, by overriding the 500x400 misconfiguration. Rather than attempt to
replicate the convoluted override meander, it is simpler to just
implement the proposed fix - and then ponder how a more complicated
alternative might be engineered, later.

On 23.07.17 15:30, Curt wrote:
> I took the scientific route and downloaded the deb for Stretch
> (amd64, my particular sauce) and unpacked it (dpkg -x
> pavucontrol_3.0-3.1_amd64.deb _directory_) and indeed the default
> geometry for the window is set in pavucontrol.glade at 500x400
> (width/height) just as Erik claimed.
> 
> Therefore I declare his rant warranted.
> 
> ;-) 
> 
> (If ever rants are really warranted.)

Admittedly dubious, but when at the bottom of a deep dark pit
demonstrably devoid of any visible way out, there comes a time to
rattle the cage. That two twists of a right-hand mantelpiece support
opens an invisible door to the previously denied access, in no way
provides a usable user interface.

> Maybe this constrained default geometry could be considered a bug that
> should be reported to the proper authorities.

As the perfect is the enemy of the good, at least if it leads to
procrastination, my recommendation is to correct the config error as
proposed, and _then_:
> “We’ll sit around talking about the good old days, when we wished that we 
> were dead.”
> --Samuel Beckett, speculating on the nature of the afterlife.

I'm off-line for a week or so, from an hour's time. If no-one's pushed
this one uphill by then, I'll give it a go. It's a lot of pain from one
small oversight.

Erik

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Martin Read]

On 23/07/17 16:48, Curt wrote:

Except that the default 500x400 geometry is the same in Jessie and
Wheezy and seems sufficient since nobody appears to be having any
problems seeing all 5 tabs but Erik.


There seem to be some other changes to the upstream glade file between 
version 2.0 and version 3.0, which have some indirect effect on the 
window geometry. Both versions have a nominal default width of 500, yet 
in the version in Debian 8 the window would come up wider than that on 
my system (as noted, it would write a window width of 780 into its 
configuration file).


In Debian 9, it comes up at 500x400 and only three of the tabs are 
immediately visible, but there are small arrows at either end of the tab 
bar, letting you move right and left along it - which is not a 
particularly obvious feature if you're not expecting it.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Curt]

On 2017-07-23, Curt  wrote:
>
> I took the scientific route and downloaded the deb for Stretch
> (amd64, my particular sauce) and unpacked it (dpkg -x
> pavucontrol_3.0-3.1_amd64.deb _directory_) and indeed the default
> geometry for the window is set in pavucontrol.glade at 500x400
> (width/height) just as Erik claimed.
>

Except that the default 500x400 geometry is the same in Jessie and
Wheezy and seems sufficient since nobody appears to be having any
problems seeing all 5 tabs but Erik.

-- 
“We’ll sit around talking about the good old days, when we wished that we were 
dead.”
--Samuel Beckett, speculating on the nature of the afterlife.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Curt]

On 2017-07-23, Cindy-Sue Causey  wrote:
> On 7/22/17, Curt  wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, Ric Moore  wrote:
>>> On 07/22/2017 12:51 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>>>
 There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
>>>
>>> No idea what your problem is, I have always been able to see the tabs.
>>> Ric
>>>
>>
>> Me neither. I've got all five. Ordinary display size here.
>>
>> I've read that the HDMI output on the Udoo depends on the S/PDIF control
>> and
>> installing pulseaudio mutes it. Maybe that has something to do with "The
>> Mysterious Case of the Hidden Tabs."
>
>
> I have 2 to 5 depending on the size of the window. Instead of all five
> reflexively changing size relative to the window size, they do what
> the main Xfce4 desktop toolbar does, for example. They become silently
> hidden behind a drop-down arrow. Or in the case of PulseAudio, a
> drop-left AND drop-right arrow. :)
>

I took the scientific route and downloaded the deb for Stretch
(amd64, my particular sauce) and unpacked it (dpkg -x
pavucontrol_3.0-3.1_amd64.deb _directory_) and indeed the default
geometry for the window is set in pavucontrol.glade at 500x400
(width/height) just as Erik claimed.

Therefore I declare his rant warranted.

;-) 

(If ever rants are really warranted.)

Maybe this constrained default geometry could be considered a bug that
should be reported to the proper authorities.

-- 
“We’ll sit around talking about the good old days, when we wished that we were 
dead.”
--Samuel Beckett, speculating on the nature of the afterlife.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 7/22/17, Curt  wrote:
> On 2017-07-22, Ric Moore  wrote:
>> On 07/22/2017 12:51 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>>
>>> There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
>>
>> No idea what your problem is, I have always been able to see the tabs.
>> Ric
>>
>
> Me neither. I've got all five. Ordinary display size here.
>
> I've read that the HDMI output on the Udoo depends on the S/PDIF control
> and
> installing pulseaudio mutes it. Maybe that has something to do with "The
> Mysterious Case of the Hidden Tabs."


I have 2 to 5 depending on the size of the window. Instead of all five
reflexively changing size relative to the window size, they do what
the main Xfce4 desktop toolbar does, for example. They become silently
hidden behind a drop-down arrow. Or in the case of PulseAudio, a
drop-left AND drop-right arrow. :)

Neither one is 100% *cognitively friendly*, but no, I don't know of an
alternative that would improve the experience.

Well, no, wait Yes, in fact I do know of an alternative. It would
help if the buttons continued to shrink down reflexively so that all
could fit in *visibly* together.

No, not everyone would like that. That part could be addressed by a
wish list item that asks for a  preference menu toggle switch to turn
that type of feature on and off. :)

My own personal experience is just a fact of #Life related to second
by second memory loss issues. To this very day after YEARS of the
same, I'll STILL lose at least a few seconds *EVERY SINGLE DAY*
wondering where any given window's "button" wandered off to on that
top desktop wide toolbar. That "button" will be there, I will just
have forgotten YET AGAIN to see if a "drop-down" button  hasn't very
quietly and *necessarily* appeared to the far right (in my particular
Xfce4 use case).

Just thinking out loud :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Martin Read]

On 22/07/17 13:20, Erik Christiansen wrote:

What we need to do is examine whether the Debian 9.0.0 distro-smith last
had it shrunken, and it is therefore in that condition in the distro.
If we knew what config file contains the menu gumpf, that could perhaps
be revealed, and minimise the need for speculation and supposition.


The shared data file describing the default window structure of 
pavucontrol is /usr/share/pavucontrol/pavucontrol.glade. The 
corresponding file in the pavucontrol-2.0 (found in Debian jessie) and 
pavucontrol-3.0 (found in Debian stretch) source trees as downloadable 
from packages.debian.org appears to have no obviously 
window-size-affecting changes between the two versions.


pavucontrol also reads the human-readable configuration file 
/home/USERNAME/.config/pavucontrol.ini to determine what the preferred 
window size for user USERNAME is. If this file is not present, it is 
created afresh and the default startup geometry is written to it. On my 
Debian jessie system, this geometry is 780x400 (which, in the context of 
the rest of my system configuration, is adequate to make the existence 
of all five tabs apparent).


I haven't upgraded to stretch, because I haven't yet been in the mood to 
spend an hour or more with my computer switched on but effectively 
unusable while I perform the upgrade, so I can't comment on the default 
geometry presented by pavucontrol in stretch.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 22.07.17 13:47, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> Erik Christiansen writes:
> > Aha, if the "PulseAudio Volume Control" window is manually widened, the
> > suppressed tabs become visible. Is it then the Debian 9.0.0 distro-smiths
> > who have set too small a window size in their LXDE menu item invocation?
> 
> It seems to remember what size it was last started with. So if a user
> decides to make it small and hide stuff, it will remember the user's
> wishes.
> 
> Now, the problem is that users don't know what they want, act
> irrational, will never remember what they did earlier (how often does
> one hear "I did nothing, but everything broke"?) and blame everything on
> the software developer. Not to forget some even come up with conspiracy
> theories how Microsoft paid people to make the application window
> smaller ;-)

Firstly, if the window had ever been larger, the 5 tabs would have
shown at least once. They did not at any stage. The word "Configure"
would have been a beacon as I struggled to find configure options.

Secondly, this user did not know that a desktop menu item could be
resized. Until the possibility was raised on list, I considered them
inviolate.

Thirdly, I've had Debian 9.0.0 installed for 2 -3 days now, and with a
monitor nearly a yard wide, I have in that time only enlarged a couple
of uxterms, and set "huge" text size, to better enjoy the wireless
keyboard at range. There has not been any cause for contemplating making
any window smaller.

What we need to do is examine whether the Debian 9.0.0 distro-smith last
had it shrunken, and it is therefore in that condition in the distro.
If we knew what config file contains the menu gumpf, that could perhaps
be revealed, and minimise the need for speculation and supposition.

Erik

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Ansgar Burchardt]

Erik Christiansen writes:
> Aha, if the "PulseAudio Volume Control" window is manually widened, the
> suppressed tabs become visible. Is it then the Debian 9.0.0 distro-smiths
> who have set too small a window size in their LXDE menu item invocation?

It seems to remember what size it was last started with. So if a user
decides to make it small and hide stuff, it will remember the user's
wishes.

Now, the problem is that users don't know what they want, act
irrational, will never remember what they did earlier (how often does
one hear "I did nothing, but everything broke"?) and blame everything on
the software developer. Not to forget some even come up with conspiracy
theories how Microsoft paid people to make the application window
smaller ;-)

Ansgar

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Curt]

On 2017-07-22, Erik Christiansen  wrote:
> On 22.07.17 09:36, Curt wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, Ric Moore  wrote:
>> > On 07/22/2017 12:51 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>> >
>> >> There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
>> >
>> > No idea what your problem is, I have always been able to see the tabs. Ric
>> >
>> 
>> Me neither. I've got all five. Ordinary display size here. 
>> 
>> I've read that the HDMI output on the Udoo depends on the S/PDIF control and
>> installing pulseaudio mutes it. Maybe that has something to do with "The
>> Mysterious Case of the Hidden Tabs." 
>
> Aha, if the "PulseAudio Volume Control" window is manually widened, the
> suppressed tabs become visible. Is it then the Debian 9.0.0 distro-smiths
> who have set too small a window size in their LXDE menu item invocation?

Calling all LXDE Debian 9.0.0 "PulseAudio Volume Control" users for
theory validation.

Of course, we assume you didn't "manually" fiddle with the geometry of
the window during some previous invocation, which fiddling it
inconveniently remembered to your profound and vocal dismay.

I mean, we're talking pristine window here, geometrically speaking,
right?

> It is cruel that so small an error causes such a reduction in usability.

Butterfly.

> Erik
>
>


-- 
“We’ll sit around talking about the good old days, when we wished that we were 
dead.”
--Samuel Beckett, speculating on the nature of the afterlife.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 22.07.17 09:36, Curt wrote:
> On 2017-07-22, Ric Moore  wrote:
> > On 07/22/2017 12:51 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> >
> >> There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
> >
> > No idea what your problem is, I have always been able to see the tabs. Ric
> >
> 
> Me neither. I've got all five. Ordinary display size here. 
> 
> I've read that the HDMI output on the Udoo depends on the S/PDIF control and
> installing pulseaudio mutes it. Maybe that has something to do with "The
> Mysterious Case of the Hidden Tabs." 

Aha, if the "PulseAudio Volume Control" window is manually widened, the
suppressed tabs become visible. Is it then the Debian 9.0.0 distro-smiths
who have set too small a window size in their LXDE menu item invocation?

It is cruel that so small an error causes such a reduction in usability.

Erik

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Curt]

On 2017-07-22, Ric Moore  wrote:
> On 07/22/2017 12:51 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>
>> There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
>
> No idea what your problem is, I have always been able to see the tabs. Ric
>

Me neither. I've got all five. Ordinary display size here. 

I've read that the HDMI output on the Udoo depends on the S/PDIF control and
installing pulseaudio mutes it. Maybe that has something to do with "The
Mysterious Case of the Hidden Tabs." 


-- 
“We’ll sit around talking about the good old days, when we wished that we were 
dead.”
--Samuel Beckett, speculating on the nature of the afterlife.

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 22.07.17 14:23, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Erik Christiansen
> >
> > There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
> >
> > Erik
> > (Who in 30 years of s/w development never let a team member produce crap
> > like that.)
> >
> 
> I think there are two things going on here.
> 
> One is that many devs get huge displays to make it easier to code, and
> then forget what the ordinary-sized displays are like. So they get careless
> about the constraints imposed by ordinary-sized screens.

Uhuh, I always tried to give my s/w team members big screens too, but my
screen is also over two feet wide. The "PulseAudio Volume Control" dev's
perversity here is in forcing two vital tabs off the dialogue window for
no valid reason, when there is over another half yard of display width to
spare!

> Another is that many devs are trying to support tablets without
> designing a separate UI for them. So they cram too much in.

That does not wash. The output config could then be included in the
"Output Ports" tab, where it belongs in the first place. Further, the
"PulseAudio Volume Control" is so damn narrow that it could fit twice on
a tablet, _and_ it wastes 25% of the tab width. The two omitted tabs can
be accommodated with ease.

As there is no plausible reason for obfuscating the two tabs, it is only
arrant disregard for the user which leads to the current abomination.

Erik

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Joel Rees]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Erik Christiansen
 wrote:
> After two days of trying to google ways to get audio on the hdmi output
> on a shiny new Udoo X86 running debian 9.0.0, sheer gritted-teeth
> determination, smacking the walls of the GUI rat's maze lucked onto the
> deeply concealed interface.
>
> On the LXDE desktop, the "Sound & Video" -> "PulseAudio Volume Control"
> menu item has only 3 widely spaced tabs, underutilising the chosen
> window width, and the "Output Ports" tab offered no management or
> configuration possibilities.
>
> But there are two tiny dark triangles in the corners. Clicking on the RH
> one leads to an unnecessarily hidden tab, "Input Devices", and clicking
> again reveals "Configuration". There, in a "Profile" selection box, it
> is possible to select "Digital Stereo (HDMI) Output". Once selected, it
> even seems to be the power-on default. (Much to my surprise, given the
> user-hostile perversity of the devious GUI design, deliberately made
> unnecessarily narrow, so that two vital tabs could be hidden from the
> user, without the most tenuous rational reason for doing so.)
>
> Granted, the purpose of a GUI is to put access to necessary functions
> at the end of deep maze rat runs - but invisible secret tabs with double
> blind access?! I do believe that some of these devs are being paid by
> Microsoft to paralyse linux. (If not, we know that they were born
> arse-backwards, and have never turned around.)
>
> There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.
>
> Erik
> (Who in 30 years of s/w development never let a team member produce crap
> like that.)
>

I think there are two things going on here.

One is that many devs get huge displays to make it easier to code, and
then forget what the ordinary-sized displays are like. So they get careless
about the constraints imposed by ordinary-sized screens.

Another is that many devs are trying to support tablets without
designing a separate UI for them. So they cram too much in.

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

Re: Can "PulseAudio Volume Control" devs be redeemed?

[Ric Moore]

On 07/22/2017 12:51 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:


There is no rational explanation for failing to make all 5 tabs visible.


No idea what your problem is, I have always been able to see the tabs. Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html