Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
Maybe you should look at it like this EasyPal only transmits the FILE (ANY TYPE OF FILE) but it is a program function that decodes the file when received correctly and then displays it as a picture - or text or whatever Les VK2DSG From: Rui Manuel Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 9:41 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, John B. Stephensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was assuming that people use EasyPal in the phone/image portions of the HF bands as it is marketed as an SSTV program. 73, John KD6OZH Ok John as a wide mode it should only be use in the phone part of the bands, no questions about that. In SSB mode I am tented to classify it also as J2C but the 2 classifier, says that it as only one modulated subcarrier, and it as several subcarries. The C symbol nominates it as picture. Could it be J7C or even J8C for several carriers ? So a SSB signal using this program and sending a picture could be classify as J = SSB 8 = analog and digital in the same emission and several carriers. C = picture An SSB signal using this program and transmitting a txt file could be classified as J = SSB 8 = analog and digital in the same emission and several carriers. D = Data transmission I must say that I am using the program in 14.233/236 with very good results, so I am not the better judge. My intention is to ask permission to use it in the digital part of the 2m band, so I must have a classification for it. Here we can't do Analog SSTV in the 2m Band, only Fax. My intention is to ask permission for 12K5F8D or 12K5F8C who knows? I must see the 2 extra designators also. Rui CT1QK
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
I think it would be more correct to say that it is file transfer program - not an SSTV program - depending on the type of file sent it will either display it as a picture - if indeed it is some type of picture file - or save it if it is a data file - or display it as a .txt file if it is a text file and even display it in the waterfall if it is a .wav file - or even send it as a .eml file providing it is going to a station that is set up as an email server Les VK2DSG From: John B. Stephensen Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:41 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal I was assuming that people use EasyPal in the phone/image portions of the HF bands as it is marketed as an SSTV program. 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: Rick W To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 18:52 UTC Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal Hi John, While the EasyPal program is primarily used on HF for image transmission, since it can send data in most any form, the Third Symbol does matter here in the U.S. since you can not send image (fax) in the RTTY/Data portions of the bands unless 500 Hz or narrower and EasyPal is closer to a phone bandwidth in size. Many countries have no specific rules like we have and while it is true that there are a number of scofflaw hams, the better way to handle this is to change the rules rather than violate them. Or at the very least, have a bureaucratic interpretation which then effectively has the force of law unless overridden by higher authority. The land mobile services do not follow Part 97 rules so these rules do not apply to radio amateurs. If the FCC ignores certain rules (and they clearly do, based on what can only be described as stonewalling on some of these issues for quite some time), then it is difficult for them to argue when any rules are not followed. Not a good thing in my view and hopefully the view of most law abiding hams. But just because most of us follow the rules, (or try to t the best of our abilities), does not necessarily mean we agree with them. Unfortunately, the majority of U.S. hams do not support changes to these rules:( My preference would be getting the FCC to agree that any files that could be sent by a program such as EasyPal would then be legal to use in the Phone/Image portions of the bands. I suppose sending a petition would be one way since they do not respond to those of us who have asked for an interpretation. I am guessing that they are betting that no one will petition them, which would be a 100 times more paperwork for them than just responding to a request. Otherwise, you would think that they would respond, as best they can, to avoid a petition. I would like to see it decided one way or the other. 73, Rick, KV9U John B. Stephensen wrote: EasyPal uses DRM so there are multiple subcarriers and its facsimile as it displays an image on the screen so J2C seems appropriate. The FCC definition of facsimile allows the image to be stored in a file before or after transmission without affecting the emission designator. If it is used to transmit a file that it can't display then the third symbol might have to change to D but the FCC probably doesn't care at this point as it allows data in broadcast TV transmissions and RTTY mixed with voice transmissions in the land mobile radio service. 73, John KD6OZH
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
7, 8 and 9 indicate multiple channels. In the U.S., 2 has been interpreted to include multiple subcarriers but only one channel. 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: Rui Manuel To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 23:41 UTC Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, John B. Stephensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was assuming that people use EasyPal in the phone/image portions of the HF bands as it is marketed as an SSTV program. 73, John KD6OZH Ok John as a wide mode it should only be use in the phone part of the bands, no questions about that. In SSB mode I am tented to classify it also as J2C but the 2 classifier, says that it as only one modulated subcarrier, and it as several subcarries. The C symbol nominates it as picture. Could it be J7C or even J8C for several carriers ? So a SSB signal using this program and sending a picture could be classify as J = SSB 8 = analog and digital in the same emission and several carriers. C = picture An SSB signal using this program and transmitting a txt file could be classified as J = SSB 8 = analog and digital in the same emission and several carriers. D = Data transmission I must say that I am using the program in 14.233/236 with very good results, so I am not the better judge. My intention is to ask permission to use it in the digital part of the 2m band, so I must have a classification for it. Here we can't do Analog SSTV in the 2m Band, only Fax. My intention is to ask permission for 12K5F8D or 12K5F8C who knows? I must see the 2 extra designators also. Rui CT1QK
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
I was thinking more about high speed data in the narrow portions of the bands. In the image/voice portion they allow DSB AM so it is hard to criticize wide digital modes, but I know a lot of hams would disagree with me on that. I like the technology that in some fashion works better than existing modes, faster, bandwidth conserving, better quality, etc. The text and image digital modes have made large improvements in the past few years. 73, Rick, KV9U John B. Stephensen wrote: Digital voice fits in 1.2 kHz and digital image can fit in 1.2 kHz so why not do both simultaneously on HF? 73, John KD6OZH
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
EasyPal uses DRM so there are multiple subcarriers and its facsimile as it displays an image on the screen so J2C seems appropriate. The FCC definition of facsimile allows the image to be stored in a file before or after transmission without affecting the emission designator. If it is used to transmit a file that it can't display then the third symbol might have to change to D but the FCC probably doesn't care at this point as it allows data in broadcast TV transmissions and RTTY mixed with voice transmissions in the land mobile radio service. 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: Rui Manuel To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:23 UTC Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Rick W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking at the mode as a QAM constellation with several speeds, if using an SSB transmitter and sending an image (fax) and excluding the bandwidth part, for HF using an SSB suppressed carrier with a quantized or digital signal with sub carrier and sending facsimile it would likely be J2C? And for VHF, and I assume you mean FM, which gives the much larger bandwidth, FM angle modulation sending a quantized or digital signal with sub carrier and sending facsimile or F2C? Or with a phase modulator using the G symbol as you suggest? If sending Data instead of image, then the third symbol changes from C (fax) to D (data) except that I am not sure if F2D is considered to be Data here in the U.S. as it does not seem to be listed as one of the FCC approved ITU emission classifications for data. The multi-channel second symbol selection of 7 may only be for much more complicated multi streams not normally used on amateur equipment. Maybe others have more knowledge of this? 73, Rick, KV9U Thank you for the reply Rick It is not easy don't you think? What puzzle me are the several data carriers that I see on the waterfall. Not considering the bandwidth we can omit the first part For the first could be anything (type of modulation of the main carrier) like J, F, G, or even in special cases M, K and Q. Now the hard part, the second numeral. (nature of signal(s) modulating the main carrier) No modulating signal 0 FALSE A single channel containing quantized or digital information without the use of a modulating sub-carrier 1 FALSE A single channel containing quantized or digital information with the use of a modulating sub-carrier 2 MAYBE A single channel containing analogue information 3 FALSE Two or more channels containing quantized or digital information 7 DON'T KNOW Two or more channels containing analogue information 8 FALSE Composite system with one or more channels containing quantized or digital information, together with one or more channels containing analogue information 8 MAY BE (because we are also using the waterfall pictures in analog, and files in digital) Now the third letter (type of information to be transmitted) No information transmitted N FALSE Telegraphy - for aural reception A FALSE Telegraphy - for automatic reception B FALSE Facsimile C FALSE we are transmitting files (wav,txt,and so on) Data transmission, telemetry, telecommand D MAY BE Telephony (including sound broadcasting) E FALSE Television (video) F FALSE Combination of the above W FALSE This is only for the first 3 letters missing the others two letters for additional information Any help or comments ?? Rui, CT1QK
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
Hi John, While the EasyPal program is primarily used on HF for image transmission, since it can send data in most any form, the Third Symbol does matter here in the U.S. since you can not send image (fax) in the RTTY/Data portions of the bands unless 500 Hz or narrower and EasyPal is closer to a phone bandwidth in size. Many countries have no specific rules like we have and while it is true that there are a number of scofflaw hams, the better way to handle this is to change the rules rather than violate them. Or at the very least, have a bureaucratic interpretation which then effectively has the force of law unless overridden by higher authority. The land mobile services do not follow Part 97 rules so these rules do not apply to radio amateurs. If the FCC ignores certain rules (and they clearly do, based on what can only be described as stonewalling on some of these issues for quite some time), then it is difficult for them to argue when any rules are not followed. Not a good thing in my view and hopefully the view of most law abiding hams. But just because most of us follow the rules, (or try to t the best of our abilities), does not necessarily mean we agree with them. Unfortunately, the majority of U.S. hams do not support changes to these rules:( My preference would be getting the FCC to agree that any files that could be sent by a program such as EasyPal would then be legal to use in the Phone/Image portions of the bands. I suppose sending a petition would be one way since they do not respond to those of us who have asked for an interpretation. I am guessing that they are betting that no one will petition them, which would be a 100 times more paperwork for them than just responding to a request. Otherwise, you would think that they would respond, as best they can, to avoid a petition. I would like to see it decided one way or the other. 73, Rick, KV9U John B. Stephensen wrote: EasyPal uses DRM so there are multiple subcarriers and its facsimile as it displays an image on the screen so J2C seems appropriate. The FCC definition of facsimile allows the image to be stored in a file before or after transmission without affecting the emission designator. If it is used to transmit a file that it can't display then the third symbol might have to change to D but the FCC probably doesn't care at this point as it allows data in broadcast TV transmissions and RTTY mixed with voice transmissions in the land mobile radio service. 73, John KD6OZH
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal
I was assuming that people use EasyPal in the phone/image portions of the HF bands as it is marketed as an SSTV program. 73, John KD6OZH - Original Message - From: Rick W To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 18:52 UTC Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emision designators for EasyPal Hi John, While the EasyPal program is primarily used on HF for image transmission, since it can send data in most any form, the Third Symbol does matter here in the U.S. since you can not send image (fax) in the RTTY/Data portions of the bands unless 500 Hz or narrower and EasyPal is closer to a phone bandwidth in size. Many countries have no specific rules like we have and while it is true that there are a number of scofflaw hams, the better way to handle this is to change the rules rather than violate them. Or at the very least, have a bureaucratic interpretation which then effectively has the force of law unless overridden by higher authority. The land mobile services do not follow Part 97 rules so these rules do not apply to radio amateurs. If the FCC ignores certain rules (and they clearly do, based on what can only be described as stonewalling on some of these issues for quite some time), then it is difficult for them to argue when any rules are not followed. Not a good thing in my view and hopefully the view of most law abiding hams. But just because most of us follow the rules, (or try to t the best of our abilities), does not necessarily mean we agree with them. Unfortunately, the majority of U.S. hams do not support changes to these rules:( My preference would be getting the FCC to agree that any files that could be sent by a program such as EasyPal would then be legal to use in the Phone/Image portions of the bands. I suppose sending a petition would be one way since they do not respond to those of us who have asked for an interpretation. I am guessing that they are betting that no one will petition them, which would be a 100 times more paperwork for them than just responding to a request. Otherwise, you would think that they would respond, as best they can, to avoid a petition. I would like to see it decided one way or the other. 73, Rick, KV9U John B. Stephensen wrote: EasyPal uses DRM so there are multiple subcarriers and its facsimile as it displays an image on the screen so J2C seems appropriate. The FCC definition of facsimile allows the image to be stored in a file before or after transmission without affecting the emission designator. If it is used to transmit a file that it can't display then the third symbol might have to change to D but the FCC probably doesn't care at this point as it allows data in broadcast TV transmissions and RTTY mixed with voice transmissions in the land mobile radio service. 73, John KD6OZH
