[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
JPM, Yes, the customer made a mistake, which you pointed out even YOU do sometimes! All I'm asking is that the real customers get protected, and the thieves get treated as thieves. Nothing more complex than that. We are not talikg about the end of e-gold if they start protecting customers. Why can OSGOLD do it, and still have a massive growth at the same time? What we need is a small, simple management thinking change. In fact, it would be quite seamless, and easy to implement. REAL customers would not be at all nevatively affected, but the bloody crooks would be! Too many lawyers spoil the outcome, for the real customer! Cheers! Graham Kelly CEO GoldNow Corporation http://www.GoldNow.St Phone/Fax +44 (0)709-233-7612 USA Phone/Fax +1(509) 2782268 If you would like a free e-gold, Standard Reserve, or OSGOLD account, please apply at my site! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's very difficult stuff, Graham. It's a great pity that customer was silly enough or unfortunate to fall for a simple scam. But consider - if Jim repudiates this one spend, it could simply mean the end of e-gold. Is that a better or worse outcome? I have, oh, ten, maybe 15 spends that are spectacularly better candidates for repudiatin than that particular one. If your particular spend was repudiated, but not the dozen I want repudiated, I'd litigated Douglas, his family, and then all his companies out of all existence. The smallest problem in anyone's universe would be the odd $600. So, it's very difficult stuff. JP May Gentlemen, This email is in immediate response to a good customers complaint. Apparantly, yesterday, after I funded his account, my customer was compromised by the owner of e-gold account 305107, and the amount of $600 was stolen. (batch 2569064) As the President of the Alliance, Doug, Reid, I am asking you to take immediate action to re-cover Mr Warminski's gold. This action is not beyond the spirit of g-commerce, but certainly may infringe upon the policies of e-gold/GSR/Omnipay. If so, and in the interest of the entire gold economy, let's go with the spirit of the law, and change the offending policies. Immediately, I require the perpetrators account to be blocked, and at least the funds in question to be returned to the rightful owner. Any other action, or non performance, by you guys will signal that you are aiding and abetting the perpetrators. Did he make a mistake. Yes. He quite by accident logged into Qgold, or similar. Strong Customer Service, shown by e-gold, would go down very nicely, just about NOW. Why is it that OSGOLD are growing by leaps and bounds? They have STRONG customer service, 18 hour/day online reps, and good customer protection policies, and they DON'T protect the thieves and crooks. Gets it everytime... Doug, Reid, the major reason why I am in the US is to have a meeting with you about these very same issues. My request for an appointment 7 weeks ago, has obviously been ignored, perhaps overlooked? My phone number is 310-215-1000. Doug, Reid, call me now, and lets make an appointment. Incidently, I will remain in the US indefinately, until a meeting is convened. Mr. Warminski: Can I suggest you use Standard Reserve or OSGold in future? Graham Kelly CEO GoldNow Corporation http://www.GoldNow.St Phone/Fax +44 (0)709-233-7612 USA Phone/Fax +1(509) 2782268 PS The outcome of this request will be publically shared across the gold community. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Graham, The account number that my funds went into is 305107. The batch number, if important was 2569064. The funds were taken out at 12:54 GMT, some 8 hours after the funds were credited. I was not able to access my account at the time the funds were taken out. I am going t call Mr. Trotter and demand my funds be returned. I will not hang up the phone until I get satisfaction. The thing that strikes me as funny, is that I called e-gold at about 10am PST and told them that my account was not accessible. They changed the passphrase right then and there. So tell me? How in the word could anybody have gotten into my account at 12:54 when the passphrase was changed so that even a hacker could not have accessed it?? Thanks for your help. Anthony Warminski --- Great ventures create great mottos. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
We are not talikg about the end of e-gold if they start protecting customers. Why can OSGOLD do it, and still have a massive growth at the same time? If OSGold does this, then they are doing it in violation of their terms of service, where they indicate that they do NOT reverse spends. I hate talking about this, because I hate theft. However, I know how the thieves operate. THEY will not allow their gold to sit idle, while the issuer reverses the transaction they used to steal the gold. Once it becomes known that such a policy of reversal is in place, they will move the gold AS SOON as they take it, to a safe location. This is why reversals don't work: because they hurt innocent people. This is also why people NEED to take responsibility for their own actions. The issuer, on the other hand, would do well to make their system as fool-proof as possible, and this is where I will agree that a better system is needed; (A better system would have at least two passwords where one is a 'master' password never to be used to make a spend or check a balance, which can be used to set-up the account profile INCLUDING a VALUE LIMIT to be used by some other password which WILL be used to do spends and check a balance. Such a system would better protect the user since he would only rarely use his master password -- and never off site -- and if he lost his 'spending' password, he would only lose value up to his pre-set limit... Just my humble opinion...). This is from the OSGold Website: 3. User is responsible for the protection of User's Password that gives access to User's OSGold account. User agrees that, in the event of the loss or misuse of User's Password, Issuer disclaims all liability for such loss. User shall indemnify and hold harmless Issuer for relying on transactions authorized using User's Password prior to such time as User notifies Issuer that User's Password has been compromised. 4. User acknowledges and accepts that in the case of a claim of unauthorized Spends, the presumption shall be that all Spends are authorized by and are the liability of the User. However, if User establishes to the satisfaction of Issuer that value was diverted from User's Account due to a breach of OSGold system security, then Issuer shall restore the diverted value. 5. User agrees that any action taken by any person using User's Password shall be binding on User and all other parties with an interest in that account. 6. User agrees that all Spends initiated by User Account are final and not reversible. Issuer will act as mediator in an attempt to recover funds spent in error, but ultimately spends are the responsibility of the User. 7. In the event of an incorrect spend, Issuer agrees to make one attempt to contact recipient to return spend, however Issuer is not accountable for the outcome. Multiple requests for intervention will not be considered. 8. Any disputes that arise between Users are not the responsibility of Issuer. 9. User acknowledges that OSGold is not an escrow service, and that Issuer does not make any guarantees regarding purchases made when using the service. User acknowledges that Issuer does not ensure the quality, safety, or legality of any merchandise received, nor that the seller will even ship the merchandise. 10. User agrees to indemnify and hold harmless Issuer, its agents, affiliates officers, directors and employees from any claim or
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
JP, On the surface, I would agree that it would be detrimental to e-gold's very existence to repudiate a spend. However, there is a BIG difference between repudiation and fraud protection. With the security and tracking devices available to firms today, it would not be a difficult task to verify that indeed an account has been entered by someone fraudulently. If a customer were to sign and notarize a fraud affidavit, and it were indeed found to be true, then e-gold would have EVERY right to return the gold to its original owner. Of course, it is a moot point, as it will not happen. But Graham is correct in that it is up to EVERY company or individual in the gold community to look after its fellow members and to protect them from outright theft. Whether it is through stupidity, carelessness, or through manipulation from the thief himself, something should be done to assist the victim instead of treating them as if they are the person in the wrong. Just my two cents. David JP May Wrote.. It's very difficult stuff, Graham. It's a great pity that customer was silly enough or unfortunate to fall for a simple scam. But consider - if Jim repudiates this one spend, it could simply mean the end of e-gold. Is that a better or worse outcome? I have, oh, ten, maybe 15 spends that are spectacularly better candidates for repudiatin than that particular one. If your particular spend was repudiated, but not the dozen I want repudiated, I'd litigated Douglas, his family, and then all his companies out of all existence. The smallest problem in anyone's universe would be the odd $600. So, it's very difficult stuff. JP May Gentlemen, This email is in immediate response to a good customers complaint. Apparantly, yesterday, after I funded his account, my customer was compromised by the owner of e-gold account 305107, and the amount of $600 was stolen. (batch 2569064) As the President of the Alliance, Doug, Reid, I am asking you to take immediate action to re-cover Mr Warminski's gold. This action is not beyond the spirit of g-commerce, but certainly may infringe upon the policies of e-gold/GSR/Omnipay. If so, and in the interest of the entire gold economy, let's go with the spirit of the law, and change the offending policies. Immediately, I require the perpetrators account to be blocked, and at least the funds in question to be returned to the rightful owner. Any other action, or non performance, by you guys will signal that you are aiding and abetting the perpetrators. Did he make a mistake. Yes. He quite by accident logged into Qgold, or similar. Strong Customer Service, shown by e-gold, would go down very nicely, just about NOW. Why is it that OSGOLD are growing by leaps and bounds? They have STRONG customer service, 18 hour/day online reps, and good customer protection policies, and they DON'T protect the thieves and crooks. Gets it everytime... Doug, Reid, the major reason why I am in the US is to have a meeting with you about these very same issues. My request for an appointment 7 weeks ago, has obviously been ignored, perhaps overlooked? My phone number is 310-215-1000. Doug, Reid, call me now, and lets make an appointment. Incidently, I will remain in the US indefinately, until a meeting is convened. Mr. Warminski: Can I suggest you use Standard Reserve or OSGold in future? Graham Kelly CEO GoldNow Corporation http://www.GoldNow.St Phone/Fax +44 (0)709-233-7612 USA Phone/Fax +1(509) 2782268 PS The outcome of this request will be publically shared across the gold community. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Graham, The account number that my funds went into is 305107. The batch number, if important was 2569064. The funds were taken out at 12:54 GMT, some 8 hours after the funds were credited. I was not able to access my account at the time the funds were taken out. I am going t call Mr. Trotter and demand my funds be returned. I will not hang up the phone until I get satisfaction. The thing that strikes me as funny, is that I called e-gold at about 10am PST and told them that my account was not accessible. They changed the passphrase right then and there. So tell me? How in the word could anybody have gotten into my account at 12:54 when the passphrase was changed so that even a hacker could not have accessed it?? Thanks for your help. Anthony Warminski --- Great ventures create great mottos. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
If a customer were to sign and notarize a fraud affidavit, and it were indeed found to be true, then e-gold would have EVERY right to return the gold to its original owner. The problem is that the gold won't be in the thief's account. It will be moved to the account of another market maker, or traded for something on eBay, BEFORE any action can take place, Thieves who are smart enough to trick people out of these passwords will not keep the gold in their account. This is the fundamental problem with repudiation. The other main problem is that ANY type of repudiation would be based on guesswork. You don't KNOW that the person claiming fraud isn't doing it for his OWN reasons. E-gold is supposed to be internet currency, and this means it should be treated like cash. Craig --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
You're talking about creating a fraud investigation deptartment within E-Gold to protect those who are careless with their passwords. TANSTAAFL. If E-Gold creates an investigative arm, who will pay for the additional cost? Those of us who are _not_ careless with our passwords, that's who. If one spend is repudiated, then there's a precedent for repudiating possibly hundreds of spends. This can't be done just on someone's say-so, but will require an (expensive) investigation into each one. The investigators will not be omniscient, so however much they try to err on the side of non-repudiation, they will inevitably repudiate an ocassional spend that should have been left alone. The predictable, concrete non-repudiation policy will then have been replaced with a fuzzy, gosh-I-hope-nobody-can-tell-a-convincing-lie-about-me uncertainty about whether our money will still be in our accounts the next morning. That's how PayPal works. The customer who got ripped off is the victim of a crime and should hire a lawyer and/or get in touch with his state AG (or with whomever, depending on his country of residence). I _already_ pay a mountain of taxes so that we can have a government to prosecute criminals and a court system to settle disputes, and your client should use those resources instead of expecting the rest of us to be roped into paying for what amounts to an insurance policy. Non-repudiation is the keystone of the E-Gold arch. It's tempting to say that we can carve out a limited exception to it, but if that happens, even once, I guarantee it will serve as a precedent for the carving of more and more tiny exceptions until the keystone no longer holds the arch. It is naive to suppose otherwise. I'm sorry for your customer. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
Samuel Mc Kee wrote: If one spend is repudiated, then there's a precedent for repudiating possibly hundreds of spends. This can't be done just on someone's say-so, but will require an (expensive) investigation into each one. The investigators will not be omniscient, so however much they try to err on the side of non-repudiation, they will inevitably repudiate an ocassional spend that should have been left alone. The predictable, concrete non-repudiation policy will then have been replaced with a fuzzy, gosh-I-hope-nobody-can-tell-a-convincing-lie-about-me uncertainty about whether our money will still be in our accounts the next morning. That's how PayPal works. The choices could basically be summarized thus: a) Repudiate, erase value that by now probably belongs to some innocent third party, erase gold sometimes by mistake, destabilize the whole e-gold economy, cause market-makers to massively increase commission. Allow fools to be secure in getting away with their stupidity. b) Refuse to repudiate. The Barnum type walks away with the loot, as he almost certainly would anyhow. The sucker recieves an expensive but well deserved lesson in Caveat Emptor and doing his own homework. I favour b. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
On 10 May 2001, at 11:44, SnowDog wrote: E-gold is supposed to be internet currency, and this means it should be treated like cash. Amen! Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
Craig wrote The problem is that the gold won't be in the thief's account. It will be moved to the account of another market maker, or traded for something on eBay, BEFORE any action can take place, Thieves who are smart enough to trick people out of these passwords will not keep the gold in their account. At which point e-gold ltd. has two choices... 1) Create e-gold out of thin air to compensate the victim. 2) Track down every last microgram of e-gold and freeze all the accounts involved, pending investigation. Then upon deciding that repudiation is somehow warranted, extract the gold from these innocent account holders, and give it back to original victim. The 1st choice blantantly disregards the 100% backing rule; or puts a lot of additional expense on operating e-gold ltd., which would be passed on to the entire community. The 2nd choice involves a lot of expense, which would be passed on to the entire e-gold community, disregards the non-repudiation rule, and creates many, many completely innocent victims as opposed to 1 victim who was careless, to some degree, with his passphrase. The 2nd choice might also involve doing away with the instantly-clearing rule. Because, it is much easier to repudiate a transaction if the transaction hasn't cleared yet. The 2nd choice also brings up another possibility... Why would you even think about using a currency when money could be taken away from you simply because it was stolen from somebody else? This is analagous to the police knocking on your one day to take a $20 bill from you, because it was stolen from a bank last month. Neither option is any way, shape, or form viable in any degree. Which leaves us back where we started; a non-repudiation rule and personal responsibility. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.2cw.org/VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
Hallelujah brother! As has been alluded to, introducing repudiation into e-gold would create two kinds of money in this currency, good and bad, with no way to tell one from the other. This would make e-gold just like PayPal, and innocent third-parties are bound to suffer, as most exchange providers have already learned the hard way, when they accepted PayPal (or credit cards) for e-gold. I liked the analogy someone made of the police raiding an innocent third party for a twenty dollar note that had some time ago been stolen. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc. Sent: Friday, 11 May 2001 4:21 AM To: e-gold Discussion Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service? On 10 May 2001, at 11:44, SnowDog wrote: E-gold is supposed to be internet currency, and this means it should be treated like cash. Amen! Claude SNIP --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold customer service?
It's very difficult stuff, Graham. It's a great pity that customer was silly enough or unfortunate to fall for a simple scam. But consider - if Jim repudiates this one spend, it could simply mean the end of e-gold. Is that a better or worse outcome? I have, oh, ten, maybe 15 spends that are spectacularly better candidates for repudiatin than that particular one. If your particular spend was repudiated, but not the dozen I want repudiated, I'd litigated Douglas, his family, and then all his companies out of all existence. The smallest problem in anyone's universe would be the odd $600. So, it's very difficult stuff. JP May Gentlemen, This email is in immediate response to a good customers complaint. Apparantly, yesterday, after I funded his account, my customer was compromised by the owner of e-gold account 305107, and the amount of $600 was stolen. (batch 2569064) As the President of the Alliance, Doug, Reid, I am asking you to take immediate action to re-cover Mr Warminski's gold. This action is not beyond the spirit of g-commerce, but certainly may infringe upon the policies of e-gold/GSR/Omnipay. If so, and in the interest of the entire gold economy, let's go with the spirit of the law, and change the offending policies. Immediately, I require the perpetrators account to be blocked, and at least the funds in question to be returned to the rightful owner. Any other action, or non performance, by you guys will signal that you are aiding and abetting the perpetrators. Did he make a mistake. Yes. He quite by accident logged into Qgold, or similar. Strong Customer Service, shown by e-gold, would go down very nicely, just about NOW. Why is it that OSGOLD are growing by leaps and bounds? They have STRONG customer service, 18 hour/day online reps, and good customer protection policies, and they DON'T protect the thieves and crooks. Gets it everytime... Doug, Reid, the major reason why I am in the US is to have a meeting with you about these very same issues. My request for an appointment 7 weeks ago, has obviously been ignored, perhaps overlooked? My phone number is 310-215-1000. Doug, Reid, call me now, and lets make an appointment. Incidently, I will remain in the US indefinately, until a meeting is convened. Mr. Warminski: Can I suggest you use Standard Reserve or OSGold in future? Graham Kelly CEO GoldNow Corporation http://www.GoldNow.St Phone/Fax +44 (0)709-233-7612 USA Phone/Fax +1(509) 2782268 PS The outcome of this request will be publically shared across the gold community. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Graham, The account number that my funds went into is 305107. The batch number, if important was 2569064. The funds were taken out at 12:54 GMT, some 8 hours after the funds were credited. I was not able to access my account at the time the funds were taken out. I am going t call Mr. Trotter and demand my funds be returned. I will not hang up the phone until I get satisfaction. The thing that strikes me as funny, is that I called e-gold at about 10am PST and told them that my account was not accessible. They changed the passphrase right then and there. So tell me? How in the word could anybody have gotten into my account at 12:54 when the passphrase was changed so that even a hacker could not have accessed it?? Thanks for your help. Anthony Warminski --- Great ventures create great mottos. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
