[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
But reversible spends turn into non repudiable e-gold as soon as the chargeback period expires, so when the HYIP folds after the chargeback period is over the victims will find out that they cannot get their money back. This danger will have to be explained in user agreement (which unfortunately nobody will read until it's too late) yes, but with a 15 day repudiation window and considering these scams prey on continual funds coming into the system (most are here and gone within a month or 2) the user at least has a chance of getting the funds back. The merchant will lose out on 15 days worth of spends which I would suspect would certainly hurt the coffers... This is another reason why I am against setting up internal judges in the system, because before you know it they will be busy sorting out all this rubbish HYIP scams. I would think though, with 10 judges who have been qualified via the system - and who could be looked at as system judges - then they would easily be able to tell this game ran off with funds because 1. influx of sudden complaints, 2. closure of website, 3. bullshit talk like hacking etc of accounts from admin of the programs. doesnt take long to smell a rat.. And remember, $10.00 fee of some type for those who wish to dispute will make the judges want to certainly get involved for a financial incentive. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
Newsflash: the greatest reversible/repudiable payment system ever on the planet, is credit cards -- Visa and MC. You very simply will never be able to improve on them. (How? Greater penetration? lol. or what? how could it be improved on?) Oh, I'll improve upon them in almost every aspect, at least as far as its use on the internet is concerned. We should not forget that creditcards where not created for the internet specifically, they already existed and came in use on the net because they were the only form of reversible/repudiable payment around. As a result they have some serious flaws for internet use, but merchants take it for granted because the large userbase of creditcards compensates for the trouble. The advantages of my e-gold based reversible payment system are clear: 1) Lower fees. 2) More transparent for the users, if you make user statistics available. 3) The merchant is handling the disputes/chargebacks himself. This means you can use your own methods to stop scammers from doing fraudulent chargebacks. With creditcards the merchant has not any control over it, and the creditcard companies do a very lousy job in that department, usually granting chargebacks to anyone who asks, without any enquiry... 4) No problems with lost or stolen creditcards 5) The merchant will know exactly when the payment becomes irreversible, and he can choose that chargeback period. With creditcards that is not the case, a customer may do a chargeback even months after the purchase was made... A reversible e-gold spend automatically becomes non repudiable e-gold after a definite period, so that's a huge advantage. 6) Another big advantage for the merchant/seller is that with my reversible spend system, the buyer cannot easily deny that he initiated the spend. With CC he can say that he did not order anything and the merchant has fraudulently charged his CC. With my reversible payment system , the merchant is in far stronger position if the case would come to the court. This is are not small advantages, not in the least for the merchant/seller... And you are asking how creditcards could possibly be improved upon.. LOL The only disadvantage of my system at this point: 1) A much smaller users base than creditcards.. (Although I see the number of e-gold accounts is approaching the 1 million mark) And that could change over time... But, hey, setting up this system requires very little resources and people to start. One person with an e-gold account and a webserver can start it. Alternately: if you want an escrow system - use one of the dozens, hundreds available. You are equally welcome to do a reversible microspend into my e-gold account #102468 Or show me a webpage that can accept reversible spends with e-gold Cheers, Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
The costs are exactly double the normal e-gold fees, because two spends happen before the e-gold arrives into George's account (or back into James' account). But I would of course take a little fee for myself and make a profit here. Who will handle disputes if there is a chargeback? Credit card companies have interest fees and merchant fees to pay for people to do this. The merchant/seller will take care of his own disputes/chargebacks. That's why I will be able to work with very low fees and no employees (or very few if the system becomes a big succes). I did not elaborate on the handling of disputes in my system, because first I wanted make sure people understand the bare bones reversible spend mechanism. So, now I will tell you how I would handle the disputes and chargeback requests. When you, the buyer, do a reversible spend with my system, you will receive a confirmation email which has a link that takes you to the 'complaints/chargeback' page at my site. If you are unhappy with the purchase (for good reason or not) , or if you are a scammer and try to do a fraudelent chargeback, that's the link you will use inorder to get your money back. But I won't simply put a Chargeback button there, that would make it too easy for the scammers. On the page you will find a Lock Payment button and a form to fill (Of course that button will no longer be there if the chargeback period has expired and the gold has been forwarded to the merchant already) Once you fill the form and hit the Lock payment, the e-gold will effectively be locked into the system account, until you have settled the dispute with the merchant/seller. This is not a chargeback yet, but the money will also no longer be forwarded to the merchant automatically at the end of the chargeback period. So, this is a kind of intermediate solution, something which creditcards cannot offer, but has huge advantages over simple chargeback. I use this approach because it forces the merchant/seller to get in touch with the buyer and settle the dispute among them, according to the customer agreement he may have on his site. This allows the merchant complete flexibility to arrange his disputes in any way he sees fit, he can even negotiate partial refund with the customer, he can require the goods to be sent back before the spend is reversed,..., your imagination is the limit in this department... In most cases the two parties will be able to work out things among themselves, without my intervention. After the Lock Payment button was pushed by the buyer, he will have on his page available another button Release Payment which he will use when the problems are solved and he agrees to forward the locked up e-gold to the merchant. The merchant will have on his end a Grant Chargeback button, which he can use if he agrees to pay back the customer. He will also be able to propose a partial refund, which will then become available as another button on the page of the customer. And my server will respond by doing the spends that are needed to fulfil the agreement choosen by both parties. In the exception case where both parties cannot agree on anything , or one of the parties is no longer responding, they can either call in my help to cut a decision or decide to go to court. If my help is called, I will charge a special fee , look at whatever evidence both parties present me with, and decide who gets the gold or split it up among both. If they go to court the payment will remain locked until the trial is finished. Because both parties loose if they need outside help, they have incentive to come to an agreement on their own accord. That means I will only rarely be needed, so I can do with very little employees. Regards, Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
At 7:13 PM -0500 6/1/03, Offshore Team wrote: Imagine say 3-10 people being the jury for repudiation payments each earning a % of the fee charged for the outcome - ... I can't imagine a number of things about your scenario, such as how you'd pay jurors so little and have any, but I *can* imagine both trying to seed your juries with my allies and/or bribe them. Many of you are very charming, because you're so honest. I *try* to be charming, but life forces me to think like a criminal. When I think about this idea like a criminal, the results aren't too good for the idea but they're VERY good for the imaginary criminals... If e-gold can get away without having any reversal options then this system could most certainly state the decison of the jury is final. No appeals/recourse! All the more-reason to offer nice large bribes! - Original Message - ... Please delete Original Messages, even if it is an Outlook default. Not every default on your computer is correct for this list (or life in general, come to think of it!). Please concentrate on maximum content with minimum bandwidth for the sake of the list. Thanks. JMR PS the ISP was acting up for a few hours this weekend, meaning that beyond the inherent weirdness of Lyris some messages may have bounced. Sorry about that... --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
I can't imagine a number of things about your scenario, such as how you'd pay jurors so little and have any, but I *can* imagine both trying to seed your juries with my allies and/or bribe them. Many of you are very charming, because you're so honest. I *try* to be charming, but life forces me to think like a criminal. When I think about this idea like a criminal, the results aren't too good for the idea but they're VERY good for the imaginary criminals... hey as I said, you appoint 10 full time honest judges and keep them on board. DD would be done on the judges, but of course bribes could be a problem even though the situations would be kept anonymous. That is why, if the first verdict was faulty, the system could allocate the case to 5 other independant judges for one final time. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
If e-gold can get away without having any reversal options then this system could most certainly state the decison of the jury is final. A NON-repudial juror system for your repudial e-gold, justified by the fact that e-gold is non-repudial, a feature which you think is bad ... very interesting. Why don't you stop talking about this and just do it? Afraid that the market will tell you exactly what I (and I suspect several others) think it will; i.e. nobody wants this bafflingly complicated crap service because one of the main reasons they use e-gold in the first place is it's non-repudiability? Also, your attacks on JP May and 1MDC are pathetic. He is too much of a negative thinker for your own taste, but his e-gold complementing service raises you red flags, and you go so far as to insinuate that only the foolish would do business with them even if they met your rigourous standards of *trustworthiness* This seems pure envy, as all you do is talk and talk and JPM actually ACTED on his idea, and it from here seems to be a reasonable success. How much more of a negative vibe can you put off, than that of the envious armchair critic? Frank Despite talk of deflation, your dollar has lost about four percent of its value under Bush. That means, for example, that if you had $ 50,000.00 in the bank when he was elected, the feds managed to burn $ 2,000.00 of it. Cancel that vacation. Just keep working like a jackass, the fate of those who allow their freedom to slip away without a peep of protest. -- James Ostrokowski _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
If e-gold can get away without having any reversal options then this system could most certainly state the decison of the jury is final. Umm, Danny never said this. I did, so you shouldnt start yellen at him for that... A NON-repudial juror system for your repudial e-gold, justified by the fact that e-gold is non-repudial, a feature which you think is bad ... very interesting. same, that was me again :). Not Danny. Why don't you stop talking about this and just do it? Umm, I think he answered that and I for one am looking at creating this very system (along with around 4 other groups). Seems like many of you have your blinkers on with new ideas such as this comes along. Non repudiable rocks, but the ability to also choose a repudiable on within the same site has merits. Afraid that the market will tell you exactly what I (and I suspect several others) think it will; i.e. nobody wants this bafflingly complicated crap service because one of the main reasons they use e-gold in the first place is it's non-repudiability? Umm, I believe it will not be a failure as you think it will be. I guess the future in 2-3 years will see how well it goes. Also, your attacks on JP May and 1MDC are pathetic. He is too much of a negative thinker for your own taste, but his e-gold complementing service raises you red flags, and you go so far as to insinuate that only the foolish would do business with them even if they met your rigourous standards of *trustworthiness* This seems pure envy, as all you do is talk and talk and JPM actually ACTED on his idea, and it from here seems to be a reasonable success. How much more of a negative vibe can you put off, than that of the envious armchair critic? Umm, once again. The way I saw it, the comments made by JP etc that only 4 or 5 customers will come of this is negative rubbish. I guarantee you thousands of users will try the system. As long as the marketing is done correctly, and any one who has some marketing knowledge can make this idea really work. I agree repudiable is best for many, but how many people (I guess in the tens of thousands) have been scammed within e-gold from people who closed up shop eg games and HYIP's. These are a prime market for repudiable as the users are safe in the knowledge that they can stop payment if required - and keeps the merchant more honest! -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
At 4:35 PM -0500 6/2/03, Offshore Team wrote: ... I agree repudiable is best for many, but how many people (I guess in the tens of thousands) have been scammed within e-gold from people who closed up shop eg games and HYIP's. These are a prime market for repudiable... Is that why there are so many HYIPs using credit cards? Look, folks, wanting these guys to be honest is like wanting virgin prostitutes! It just won't happen. See (once again...) historical URL below, and note the (unrealistic, then or now!) rates of return offered, when economic- illiteracy was in its infancy. Lots lower than many modern scammers' offers, isn't it? Well, the fundamental laws of economics have _NOT_ changed since the time of Charles Ponzi (who would have *LOVED* the 'net). Criminals like Ponzi should be a prime market for law enforcement. JMR -- http://www.mark-knutson.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
OK... How about this idea! Maybe after all the talk on this topric what we have here is an oragami boulder! http://www.origamiboulder.com/ lol Gordon H. www.katzglobal.com Anonymous Hosting(tm) Solutions --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
- Original Message - From: James M. Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:56:18 -0400 To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most online HYIP scams are made WITHIN e-gold not credit cards (credit cards are repudiable thus the scammers running the show cannot get away with funds most of the time ) You proved my point, the digital gold market is laden with scams - it would do e-gold a great service if a repudiable currency took over this market - and users would feel more comfortable in the knowledge their is the possibility of return of funds. E-gold even state they hate the HYIP market but they are also one of there biggest money earners (transactional volume/frozen funds etc). Is that why there are so many HYIPs using credit cards? Look, folks, wanting these guys to be honest is like wanting virgin prostitutes! A repudiable system would counter this as the user would be more prepared to get involved with these games if the currency could offer the money back guarantee possibility. If the market is there, then this system would certainly help build some confidence for the users. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
At 6:22 PM -0500 6/2/03, Offshore Team wrote: ... Most online HYIP scams are made WITHIN e-gold not credit cards (credit cards are repudiable thus the scammers running the show cannot get away with funds most of the time ) This is my point (though your term within is totally-inaccurate). I doubt the scammers have even tried a scam with credit cards. You proved my point, the digital gold market is laden with scams - it would do e-gold a great service if a repudiable currency took over And you think a Ponzi market could support this? Look, the non- repudiation feature is the ONLY thing about e-gold these scammers like! .e-gold.com/unsecure/nonrepudiation.html this is it! this market - and users would feel more comfortable in the knowledge their is the possibility of return of funds. HAR! Good one. I feel comfortable that these anonymous crooks can invest better than Warren Buffett of Berkshire Hathaway can, so I'll give them my money instead of buying shares of Berkshire Hathaway. E-gold even state they hate the HYIP market but they are also one of there biggest money earners (transactional volume/frozen funds etc). WRONG! This is one of the biggest myths out there by the scammers. e-gold does not freeze accounts without a court order, and it doesn't benefit from frozen accounts aside from storage fees *ANY* account would pay. The scams' transactional volume spend fees are dwarfed by one (let alone an entire team!) salary of the workerS trying to stop them. One of these scams lasts maybe a week or two, and they hurt e-gold with spam and by drawing criminals. There is no benefit, that is why Ponzis see zero value limits ALL the time (NOT frozen funds though!). I know the numbers, and this myth is scammer-BS!! Don't believe it!!! As for transaction volume, Ponzis don't account for stats because humans would not have evolved had there been that many people dimwitted-enough to invest in Ponzi schemes. Something _else_ explains them, as JP and I and others have all discussed. Is that why there are so many HYIPs using credit cards? Look, folks, wanting these guys to be honest is like wanting virgin prostitutes! A repudiable system would counter this as the user would be more prepared to get involved with these games if the currency could offer the money back guarantee possibility. And exactly which scammers would use a repudiable system? I can think only of the ways they'd scam that system, too. If the market is there, then this system would certainly help build some confidence for the users. Hell, I WANT the Ponzi-users to lose money, it'll make them go away and stop spamming! They are confidence men, so for me confidence in the e-gold system is a BAD thing if they have it! I even want them to think e-gold will freeze accounts without any court order, but it's BS of course, they follow their seldom-seen account user agreement instead. JMR --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
I agree with you, but still believe that the users themselves would feel more comfortable with repduaited currencies when playing these games would they not - and merchants /game owners would pick up on this? Does Paypal and Visa operate with Csinos anymore??? NO. this market is prime for goldbacked currencies yet the thought of users not being able to get their funds back scares many when they see e-gold at first. This currency they would get best of both worlds - repudiable (which casinos would love as well due to their usual excellent DD) and repudiable. I guarantee many online games would also use this currency as it is gold backed (fluctuating like e-gold etc and not like credit cards stainoary fee laden process) and repudiable for clients - creating trust in the merchants game/products. This is my point (though your term within is totally-inaccurate). I doubt the scammers have even tried a scam with credit cards. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
If e-gold can get away without having any reversal options then this system could most certainly state the decison of the jury is final. A NON-repudial juror system for your repudial e-gold, justified by the fact that e-gold is non-repudial, a feature which you think is bad ... very interesting. Hi Frank, I think you misunderstood, the above sayings are not mine. It is not a problem, so many mails on this topic, you're probably not the only on who is confused on who is saying what. And I am also not infavor of any kind internal 'jury' that would arrange my disputes I would not use a system with such features. Why don't you stop talking about this and just do it? Afraid that the market will tell you exactly what I (and I suspect several others) think it will; i.e. nobody wants this bafflingly complicated crap service because one of the main reasons they use e-gold in the first place is it's non-repudiability? As I have said from the beginning, I was only throwing out an idea because some poster here was asking for ideas he could implement with e-gold. I have many ideas, but I am a very lazy guy, and I have no plans to start this business I am proposing. I am just having fun discussing the concept here. Also, your attacks on JP May and 1MDC are pathetic. He is too much of a negative thinker for your own taste, but his e-gold complementing service raises you red flags, and you go so far as to insinuate that only the foolish would do business with them even if they met your rigourous standards of *trustworthiness* This seems pure envy, as all you do is talk and talk and JPM actually ACTED on his idea, and it from here seems to be a reasonable success. How much more of a negative vibe can you put off, than that of the envious armchair critic? There is a big difference between just being a Negative Nellie , and asking some obvious questions when it comes to the trustworthiness of some service. It seems others have asked the same questions before me, so this is not just negative vibe. And remember, when you criticise something on a persons' site, you are not attacking him, you are actually helping him because many others may have the same concerns when they come to that site. But when you just come out with things like oh, you will have 4 or 5 customers, that is obviously not helpful in any way. Regards, Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
Afraid that the market will tell you exactly what I (and I suspect several others) think it will; i.e. nobody wants this bafflingly complicated crap service because one of the main reasons they use e-gold in the first place is it's non-repudiability? Umm, I believe it will not be a failure as you think it will be. I guess the future in 2-3 years will see how well it goes. I agree. There are already many businesses who do accept both e-gold and creditcards on their site. There is no reason why they would not be willing to accept reversible e-gold spends, once you have set up the system properly and made it easy for them to add on their site. Umm, once again. The way I saw it, the comments made by JP etc that only 4 or 5 customers will come of this is negative rubbish. I guarantee you thousands of users will try the system. As long as the marketing is done correctly, and any one who has some marketing knowledge can make this idea really work. I agree repudiable is best for many, but how many people (I guess in the tens of thousands) have been scammed within e-gold from people who closed up shop eg games and HYIP's. These are a prime market for repudiable as the users are safe in the knowledge that they can stop payment if required - and keeps the merchant more honest! Clearly non repudiable is very convenient for the merchant, but all the risk is supposed to be taken by the customer. Repudiable is very safe and convenient for the customer, but all the risk comes on the merchant. Actually my system cuts it somewhere in the middle , because the Lock Payment button I give to the buyer, is an in between solution. It gives a protection to the buyer, but it does not leave the seller completely in the dark either. So, in fact, with my system both are taking some of the risk, and that's something which CC are not offering today. Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
And let just talk the bare bones system how a repudiable spend is going to happen with e-gold! James has won an auction bid for this vintage Caddilac that George is offering on Ebay. ... hi danny, i think you describe a 3rd party e-gold escrow system perfectly well! the community needs such a system - go for it! (or get escrow.com to accept e-gold as one of their payment mechanisms.) however, when you repudiate an online payment you deny making it. by repudiating a payment you attest to never having made it in the first place. (i.e. you claim it as fraudulently initiated). in your example, no one ever denies making a payment - i.e. there is no repudiation. it is an escrow system, that in fact relies on the underlying *non-reputability* of the payment system being used. if you change your wording to not use repudiate/repudiation and switch over to escrow based wording i think your example is consistent. regards, jay w. [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 10:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... in your example, no one ever denies making a payment - i.e. there is no repudiation. it is an escrow system, that in fact relies on the underlying *non-reputability* of the payment system being used. if you change your wording to not use repudiate/repudiation and switch over to escrow based wording i think your example is consistent. Right, terminology is very important. In my previous post, I should perhaps use the phrase cancel the payment instead of repudiate the charge. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
i think you describe a 3rd party e-gold escrow system perfectly well! the community needs such a system - go for it! (or get escrow.com to accept e-gold as one of their payment mechanisms.) however, when you repudiate an online payment you deny making it. by repudiating a payment you attest to never having made it in the first place. (i.e. you claim it as fraudulently initiated). in your example, no one ever denies making a payment - i.e. there is no repudiation. it is an escrow system, that in fact relies on the underlying *non-reputability* of the payment system being used. if you change your wording to not use repudiate/repudiation and switch over to escrow based wording i think your example is consistent. In past discussions on this topic I always used the term 'reversible payment' , but then others corrected me and said I should call it repudiable. Look, English is my third language so i am not well acquainted with these terminology. I think it is clear from my description what I meant, and that's what matters to me. At least I am happy that now it seems understood what I was saying. The mechanism does indeed use an escrow system, but I would not put the emphasis on that word to market the system, just like creditcard companies are also not marketing their system as an escrow service. So, I would call it a payment system , which can facilitate reversible spends. The built-in escrow service is really only a part of the package. Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
: Would it not be simple to make all repudiable payments go into : a trust account only, or possibly even the users account only but : without the power to exchange to others at all until cleared? : Seems easy enough. Why even make the payment then? The recipient has no access to the funds until the time expires, and the payer can repudiate at any time... Why not use the e-gold system as it is, and send the goods to the buyer, and ask him to pay once he receives the goods... it's the same thing! : It is simply an unworkable system if you think it through... if you start to : allow credit, you must carry that risk... and then you are competing : directly in teh same market as credit cards... you will lose. : : I dont see any need for credit at all. The purchaser/spender : has paid with real e-gold which is either held in trust for 15 days : or totally unspendable until cleared. Much the same way as Credit : Card payments can be held until cleared within many systems. Now you are not talking about repudiable payments, you are talking about a trusted intermediary or escrow system... there are many legal ramifications in acting as a trusted intermediary. It is a viable solution to the problem of trusted payments, but is not repudiable payments. Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
From: Danny Van den Berghe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:51:37 +0300 To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system) The costs are exactly double the normal e-gold fees, because two spends happen before the e-gold arrives into George's account (or back into James' account). But I would of course take a little fee for myself and make a profit here. Who will handle disputes if there is a chargeback? Credit card companies have interest fees and merchant fees to pay for people to do this. like I keep saying, those Repudigold employees aren't doing this as a charity for the unwise/unready who don't wish to research merchants' reputations before spending to them, they're doing it to make money. I'll not have employees. Maybe one to keep the server up. So who handles the disputes for chargebacks? You will have to have an employee. - John --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
Not at all. Read my last message - users can become involved by being classed as an indepenadant anonymous judge/jury, They earn an income and start full time on deciding who earns the right to receive the payment. The terms and disclaimers would have to make sure both parties cannot take the decision to court as all verdicts are final. Imagine say 3-10 people being the jury for repudiation payments each earning a % of the fee charged for the outcome - would really work I reckon. If e-gold can get away without having any reversal options then this system could most certainly state the decison of the jury is final. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:59:05 +1000 To: e-gold Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system) So who handles the disputes for chargebacks? You will have to have an employee. - John Indeed. You'll need an employee for the help desk, too. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
So who handles the disputes for chargebacks? You will have to have an employee. - John Indeed. You'll need an employee for the help desk, too. Not at all. Read my last message - users can become involved by being classed as an indepenadant anonymous judge/jury, They earn an income and start full time on deciding who earns the right to receive the payment. The terms and disclaimers would have to make sure both parties cannot take the decision to court as all verdicts are final. Imagine say 3-10 people being the jury for repudiation payments each earning a % of the fee charged for the outcome - would really work I reckon. If e-gold can get away without having any reversal options then this system could most certainly state the decison of the jury is final. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
Danny, Your repudigold cannot work without credit... For example, if I charge back a merchant for a credit card payment I have made, the bank takes the money away from the merchant. If the merchant does not have any money in his account at the time, the bank creates a negative balance, and as soon as the merchant receives further payment it goes to paying off the debt. Now with your repudigold, what happens if I am a clever merchant, and I set up my site so that every payment I receive through the sci is immediately paid to another account. Now you as a distressed customer come to charge back and find there are never any funds available. It is simply an unworkable system if you think it through... if you start to allow credit, you must carry that risk... and then you are competing directly in teh same market as credit cards... you will lose. Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
Now with your repudigold, what happens if I am a clever merchant, and I set up my site so that every payment I receive through the sci is immediately paid to another account. Now you as a distressed customer come to charge back and find there are never any funds available. Would it not be simple to make all repudiable payments go into a trust account only, or possibly even the users account only but without the power to exchange to others at all until cleared? Seems easy enough. It is simply an unworkable system if you think it through... if you start to allow credit, you must carry that risk... and then you are competing directly in teh same market as credit cards... you will lose. I dont see any need for credit at all. The purchaser/spender has paid with real e-gold which is either held in trust for 15 days or totally unspendable until cleared. Much the same way as Credit Card payments can be held until cleared within many systems. -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: www.repudigold.com (was: Re: repudiable payment system)
Not-confusing e-gold customers matters VITALLY to me, though. They come from a world which has been overrun for decades with fiat money and weird ideas about what money really is, and this new experience is already confusing-enough for them, so please, for me, let's call the new, separate system by a new. less-confusing name: Repudigold! As I said already, it does not matter to me what name you give it. In private discussion I had been calling it rep-gold.. Well, I sure notice when I'm using 1MDC! Yes, probably, but this gives me the impression that I have not succesfully explained what I am having in mind. As far as I know you need to open an account with 1MDC, and you have to go to their site when you want to do a 1MDC spend.. You have probably assumed that I am proposing something similar, with the possibility to do repudiable payments between the repudigold accounts. Not so. And that's why I am misunderstood. It is always so difficult to explain a really simple idea. To put it plain and simple: there will not be repudigold accounts. And I could actually set it up that the buyers never see my website, even to do a chargeback they will go to the merchant's site. That's why the name doesn't matter at all, and that's why people using the system will actually think they are using e-gold. I cannot avoid it. My system will simply facilitate repudiable spends between any two existing e-gold accounts ,using the existing e-gold sci. JPM is going on record that 'repudiable e-gold' is absolutely impossible, so now again I will have to show him that the mechanics involved are actually very easy. At least it is good to see he has wisened up already not to put any money on the challenge :-) No need to try, because I am watching French Open tennis in the afternoon, so it will be hard to seduce me into producing a working repudiable spend page within 24 hours.. So let me tell you how a repudiable spend is going to work. Just put aside all the ideas about the merits and advantages of repudiable and non repudiable systems. And forget for a moment about the practical solutions that can be put in place to handle disputes. That's a seperate discussion altogether. And let just talk the bare bones system how a repudiable spend is going to happen with e-gold! Ok. James has won an auction bid for this vintage Caddilac that George is offering on Ebay. Both have e-gold accounts, but James want to be sure the car is in the condition described on the site, not a heap of rusty metal. So they agree James will do a repudiable spend using my system. George has set up my repudiable spend page on his site. James fills out the form , which is a special implementation of the e-gold shopping card interface. When James hits the Order button he is taken to the secure spend pages at e-gold.com The only difference is that the Pay to field will not display George's e-gold account name and number, but the e-gold account number of repudigold . George's e-gold account number together with the choosen repudiation period variable, will be stored in the custom input field, and also displayed in the comments field so that James can check if everything is correct. When James completes this e-gold spend, the redirect url will carry the custom input field back to my server, so all necessary information to process this repudiable spend is now stored in my database, and the gold is sitting in the repudigold account. My server sends out confirmation emails to both James and George about this transaction. James' email will contain further instructions, including the link to the page where he has to go in case of problems. George's email will contain all details about the transaction, and a link to a page on repudigold site, where he can double-check that the payment is indeed there, waiting to be forwarded into his e-gold account after the chargeback period expires. Now my server will handle everything. If all goes well, it will just spend this gold into George's e-gold account after th e chargeback period expires. If James goes to the complaints webpage he was given in the confirmation email, that's where he can initiate the chargeback or the procedure leading to chargeback. In the most simple implementation this will just be a page with a chargeback button, when pushed my server will spend the gold back to James, provided the set chargeback period was not exceeded. In any case , at the end of the chargeback period, the e-gold has either gone to George's account, or it has been spent back into James' account, if he has initiated a chargeback. And it has been fully automatic, no human intervention on the part of repudigold was needed. In fact I could drop dead, and as long as my server is up and my account working, e-gold users will be able to do repudiable spends. The costs are exactly double the normal e-gold fees, because two spends happen before the e-gold arrives into George's account (or back into James' account). But I would of
