[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've seen what airplanes do when they hit buildings---they never behave as the twin towers did This is almost surreal. For a start, how much data about planes hitting buildings can their possibly be in order to make such a statement? Have you really studied this, I mean honestly got a degree in structural engineering and the dynamics of avian demolition. This is what I mean about poor quaity research getting published in wacko conspiracy books and nowhere else. The twin towers were a unique building, unique design and construction, they needed to be as they were the tallest buildings on earth! you can't say they didn't behave as they should as that was they first time they had had planes fly into them. They only fell down because the designers hadn't taken account of the vibrations a plane would cause if it collided, you can hardly blame them. 9/11 took the world by surprise, even the Israeli secret service didn't have a contingency plan for people using hi-jacked aircraft as suicide bombs. There was no immediate response from the government because it was over before anyone had worked out (or could even believe)what was going on, not because they wanted or had planned it, they really are just people, why is that so hard to understand. The targets were symbolic---the whole thing was obvious drama and designed that way for effect. If I were a terrorist seriously interested in harming America, I could bring the food-distribution system to a stand-still with four car bombs and there would be a famine in this land. Of course the targets were symbolic, what greater experession of American global reach and power than the world trade centre. Remember that Al-queda's main goal is an end to American interference in Arab affairs? It's the most obvious target and designed for immediate dramatic effect. It worked too, some people can't accept the raw viciousness of it and have to start wildly theorising about govt plots, shape shifting reptiles ancient orders of atlantean monks who secretly rule the world. I also doubt you could stop food distribution in the USA with four car bombs. Books published in English especially will not be enough because especially in America there is no academic freedom to write and publish anything you like. Damn right there is no freedom to publish anything you like, you have to provide evidence for a start, and demonstrate you're qualified to assess the evidence, it's called peer-review and it's a good way to start working out what is from what isn't. I've yet to read a conspiracy theory that didn't say more about the people writing it.
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: I've seen what airplanes do when they hit buildings---they never behave as the twin towers did This is almost surreal. For a start, how much data about planes hitting buildings can their possibly be in order to make such a statement? When somebody says something like this, you have to wonder about all the *other* things they claim to have seen. snip They only fell down because the designers hadn't taken account of the vibrations a plane would cause if it collided I'm not sure this is correct, though. I've never heard anything about vibrations having brought the towers down. After all, quite some time elapsed between the time each tower was hit and when it collapsed (almost an hour and a half for the north tower, a little under an hour for the south tower). Furthermore, as I understand it, the towers were designed specifically to withstand the impact of a plane--just not a plane as big as those that hit them. 9/11 took the world by surprise, even the Israeli secret service didn't have a contingency plan for people using hi-jacked aircraft as suicide bombs. There may not have been a contingency plan, but the possibility of hijacked planes being used as suicide bombs on tall buildings was most definitely considered a possibility for quite some time before 9/11. There was no immediate response from the government because it was over before anyone had worked out (or could even believe)what was going on, not because they wanted or had planned it Then again, the infamous Rebuilding America's Defenses paper put out in 2000 by the neocon Project for a New American Century contains this sentence: The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor. Wanted or planned it is one thing; welcomed it might be quite another. Refrained from taking steps to stop it might be yet another. And there are bits and pieces of evidence that some in the administration and elsewhere *did* know something big was about to happen that day. snip Of course the targets were symbolic, what greater experession of American global reach and power than the world trade centre. Remember that Al-queda's main goal is an end to American interference in Arab affairs? It's the most obvious target and designed for immediate dramatic effect. It worked too, some people can't accept the raw viciousness of it and have to start wildly theorising about govt plots, shape shifting reptiles ancient orders of atlantean monks who secretly rule the world. I'm with you in rejecting the notion that the administration planned and carried it out. I don't reject out of hand, however, the possibility that there was some foreknowledge, or at least some benign neglect in terms of taking measures to protect the U.S. from *some* kind of major terrorist attack. snip Books published in English especially will not be enough because especially in America there is no academic freedom to write and publish anything you like. Damn right there is no freedom to publish anything you like, you have to provide evidence for a start, and demonstrate you're qualified to assess the evidence, it's called peer-review and it's a good way to start working out what is from what isn't. That's true in the academic/scholarly field, but not the case at all in the area of popular publishing, not to mention on the Web. I've yet to read a conspiracy theory that didn't say more about the people writing it. As I've said here before, I strongly suspect that there's a great deal of *disinformation* put out by those with something to hide, for the express purpose of sidetracking folks like Angela and Bronte and Bhairitu into pursuing loony conspiracy theories instead of the real dirt.
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: [snip] Books published in English especially will not be enough because especially in America there is no academic freedom to write and publish anything you like. Damn right there is no freedom to publish anything you like, you have to provide evidence for a start, and demonstrate you're qualified to assess the evidence, it's called peer-review and it's a good way to start working out what is from what isn't. That's true in the academic/scholarly field, but not the case at all in the area of popular publishing, not to mention on the Web. The CIA's redactions of Valerie Plame's book may be an exception. Although the CIA has a policy to censor ex-CIA member's publications, this is unjustified, politically motivated censorship under false pretenses. --Valerie Plame Wilson's just published book, Fair Game: My Life as a Spy, My Betrayal by the White House, is her personal account of helplessly observing her career being shattered as in an out-of-body experience. Fair Game is rife with long redacted passages that the CIA censors insisted upon, though the information they blacked out was mostly on the public record. (The publisher, Simon Schuster recruited investigative reporter Laura Rozen to fill in these blanks in an indispensable afterword.) The omissions only heighten the intrigue.-- ... --Even before the Libby guilty verdict, the CIA begins censoring her manuscript. She is not permitted to write the birth dates of her children. It was the bureaucratic equivalent of Groundhog Day --... --Fair Game is one of the essential documents of the Bush era, a harrowing personal account of betrayal. The betrayals of the Bush administration have become so numerous that they seem almost casual by now. Yet for Valerie Plame Wilson the personal was more than political. Betraying her was not just another lie, another smear, another Swift-boating. It was a breach of national security.-- ~~ Sidney Blumenthal [Blumenthal's short piece is definitely worth a read.] http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/10/22/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-valerie-plame-wilson-2/ I've yet to read a conspiracy theory that didn't say more about the people writing it. As I've said here before, I strongly suspect that there's a great deal of *disinformation* put out by those with something to hide, for the express purpose of sidetracking folks like Angela and Bronte and Bhairitu into pursuing loony conspiracy theories instead of the real dirt.
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: snip They only fell down because the designers hadn't taken account of the vibrations a plane would cause if it collided I'm not sure this is correct, though. I've never heard anything about vibrations having brought the towers down. After all, quite some time elapsed between the time each tower was hit and when it collapsed (almost an hour and a half for the north tower, a little under an hour for the south tower). I saw a documentary about 9/11 and vibration was definately mentioned as a cause, the building may have rattled itself apart. But thinking more about it perhaps it was the collapse of the upper sections due to the infrastructure melting. My memory may not be so good on this. Furthermore, as I understand it, the towers were designed specifically to withstand the impact of a plane--just not a plane as big as those that hit them. 9/11 took the world by surprise, even the Israeli secret service didn't have a contingency plan for people using hi-jacked aircraft as suicide bombs. There may not have been a contingency plan, but the possibility of hijacked planes being used as suicide bombs on tall buildings was most definitely considered a possibility for quite some time before 9/11. I mentioned the Israelis because they have to deal with all sorts of possibilities and they were astonished as they hadn't even suspected this, maybe others thought otherwise I don't know. There was no immediate response from the government because it was over before anyone had worked out (or could even believe)what was going on, not because they wanted or had planned it Then again, the infamous Rebuilding America's Defenses paper put out in 2000 by the neocon Project for a New American Century contains this sentence: The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor. Wanted or planned it is one thing; welcomed it might be quite another. Refrained from taking steps to stop it might be yet another. And there are bits and pieces of evidence that some in the administration and elsewhere *did* know something big was about to happen that day. Yeah I read that and it's the sort of thing that conspiracy theorists jump on, also the FBI agent following one of the hi-jackers reported that he was taking flying lessons but not landing lessons, and he feared that the guy would hi-jack a plane and fly it into a tall building. snip Of course the targets were symbolic, what greater experession of American global reach and power than the world trade centre. Remember that Al-queda's main goal is an end to American interference in Arab affairs? It's the most obvious target and designed for immediate dramatic effect. It worked too, some people can't accept the raw viciousness of it and have to start wildly theorising about govt plots, shape shifting reptiles ancient orders of atlantean monks who secretly rule the world. I'm with you in rejecting the notion that the administration planned and carried it out. I don't reject out of hand, however, the possibility that there was some foreknowledge, or at least some benign neglect in terms of taking measures to protect the U.S. from *some* kind of major terrorist attack. Benign neglect I like that. I don't believe anyone is cynical enough to plan or allow something like that to happen, but they made the most of it by blaming Iraq, Rumsfeld seizing the opportunity. My sister lives in California and she was annoyed enough with CNN to ring up and complain that every time they talked about the upcoming Iraq invasion they showed a picture of the remains of the WTC as a backdrop, a subtle bit of manipulation. But a conspiracy? No, I don't think so either. snip Books published in English especially will not be enough because especially in America there is no academic freedom to write and publish anything you like. Damn right there is no freedom to publish anything you like, you have to provide evidence for a start, and demonstrate you're qualified to assess the evidence, it's called peer-review and it's a good way to start working out what is from what isn't. That's true in the academic/scholarly field, but not the case at all in the area of popular publishing, not to mention on the Web. A's original statement was about academia I just edited that bit ;-) I've yet to read a conspiracy theory that didn't say more about the people writing it. As I've said here before, I strongly suspect that there's a great deal of *disinformation* put out by those with something
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander mailander111@ wrote: snip They only fell down because the designers hadn't taken account of the vibrations a plane would cause if it collided I'm not sure this is correct, though. I've never heard anything about vibrations having brought the towers down. After all, quite some time elapsed between the time each tower was hit and when it collapsed (almost an hour and a half for the north tower, a little under an hour for the south tower). I saw a documentary about 9/11 and vibration was definately mentioned as a cause, the building may have rattled itself apart. But thinking more about it perhaps it was the collapse of the upper sections due to the infrastructure melting. My memory may not be so good on this. I suppose the vibrations on impact could have weakened the structures so that they came down more easily once the damage from the fires was bad enough. I've just never heard anything about vibrations. snip 9/11 took the world by surprise, even the Israeli secret service didn't have a contingency plan for people using hi-jacked aircraft as suicide bombs. There may not have been a contingency plan, but the possibility of hijacked planes being used as suicide bombs on tall buildings was most definitely considered a possibility for quite some time before 9/11. I mentioned the Israelis because they have to deal with all sorts of possibilities and they were astonished as they hadn't even suspected this, maybe others thought otherwise I don't know. A lot of people suspect Mossad knew it was going to happen (although the story about all the Israelis who worked at the towers not coming to work on September 11 is a vicious myth). snip I'm with you in rejecting the notion that the administration planned and carried it out. I don't reject out of hand, however, the possibility that there was some foreknowledge, or at least some benign neglect in terms of taking measures to protect the U.S. from *some* kind of major terrorist attack. Benign neglect I like that. Courtesy Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who coined the phrase in 1970 in an entirely different context. I don't believe anyone is cynical enough to plan or allow something like that to happen, but they made the most of it by blaming Iraq, Rumsfeld seizing the opportunity. My sister lives in California and she was annoyed enough with CNN to ring up and complain that every time they talked about the upcoming Iraq invasion they showed a picture of the remains of the WTC as a backdrop, a subtle bit of manipulation. Good for her. But they're *still doing it* (not necessarily CNN, but the administration continues to try to link Iraq and 9/11). snip Damn right there is no freedom to publish anything you like, you have to provide evidence for a start, and demonstrate you're qualified to assess the evidence, it's called peer-review and it's a good way to start working out what is from what isn't. That's true in the academic/scholarly field, but not the case at all in the area of popular publishing, not to mention on the Web. A's original statement was about academia I just edited that bit ;-) Sure. The question is whether Angela's sources for her conspiracy theories are as academic as she would like us to believe. I've yet to read a conspiracy theory that didn't say more about the people writing it. As I've said here before, I strongly suspect that there's a great deal of *disinformation* put out by those with something to hide, for the express purpose of sidetracking folks like Angela and Bronte and Bhairitu into pursuing loony conspiracy theories instead of the real dirt. Disinformation by people with something to hide! sounds like a conspiracy, Yup. what real dirt do you have in mind? With regard to 9/11 specifically, I'm not convinced, as I mentioned above, that there wasn't some degree of foreknowledge in certain quarters, or that some measures weren't deliberately omitted that would have made the attack less likely to be successful. Or perhaps simply evidence of the grossest kind of incompetence and the steps taken to cover it up afterward. Still, it wouldn't surprise me, they say the CIA infiltrated UFO groups in the 50's and fed them rubbish to make the public think they were crazy because the less people believed that UFO's were real the less chance there was of mistaking incoming russian missiles for the space brothers. Is it true? I'm not sure if people need help believing crazy things but it's a good story. Don't know whether it's true; it wouldn't surprise me either. On the other
Re: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
My brother was a defense contractor during the Vietnam war. So I've seen it from that side too. There is a lot of slight of hand going on and it has been going on throughout history. There are just those who are so guarded about their egos that they are afraid what will happen if they play a hunch they have about something and they'll be called conspiracy theorists. If you are truly successful at your meditation then there would be no ego to get hurt if you play a hunch. And a lot of the time these hunches (or intuition) pan out to be right and those that weren't still may turn out to be long after we're gone. Angela Mailander wrote: I love it: Strategy theorist. Maybe people don't know what a conspiracy actually is. Every scandal involving corruption in high places of government or big business is a conspiracy come to light—and haven’t we seen our share of Enrons and Attorney firings, etc. lately? The savings and loan crisis of the eighties was a big conspiracy. Every corporation that sells products dangerous to consumers, the tobacco and the pharmaceutical industries, for example, is a conspiracy against those same consumers. Every secret service of every country is, by definition, a conspiratorial society. If a cardinal launders Mafia money in the Vatican bank, then this, too, is a conspiracy, as are all the secret financial dealings of this, the biggest religious corporation/state in the world. When the CIA, in collusion with Mafia hit-men, attempts to murder Fidel Castro, then you can call that a liberal democratic conspiracy in the name of freedom for all I care, but it is a conspiracy just the same. And when the CIA with the help of the industrial giant ITT and a few military men topples a democratically elected government, in Chile, just for example, then we are dealing with a conspiracy, as we are, too, when this same CIA secretly finances Christian-democratic and Social-democratic political parties in Europe, bribes journalists of free media and allegedly independent newspapers, or establishes secret terrorist commandoes, which, of course, doesn’t say that every conspiracy is necessarily an evil one. If, as happened in 1985 and at the behest of the CIA, it was attempted to smuggle five tons of synthetic drugs from Germany to the U.S. in order to finance the Contras in Nicaragua with the profits then this is a conspiracy. When, for those same reasons, the national security advisor of an American president works together with the drug bosses of Medellin, then this is a conspiracy, even if President Bush Senior under the aegis of the War against Drugs then tries to remove all the witnesses. When America secretly imports Nazi scientists with the help of the Vatican after the war so that they can continue doing what they had been doing (including medical experiments on human beings) what could this possibly be if not a conspiracy? And when international finance with the assistance of the Communist experiment kept half of Europe at the standard of living of developing countries for decades, then this was a conspiracy. The fact that it depends on the goodwill of a few international banks whether or not a government gets credit and thus is allowed to live is a conspiracy against every single citizen who believes in democracy. And the men who met to plan the Federal Reserve System did so as “secretly as any conspirators” by their own published admission. These are just a few of the conspiracies I can come up with off the top of my head, but there literally hundreds more. And nineteen Arabs with box cutters! The dumming-down of America has been especially successful if people can believe that. I've seen what airplanes do when they hit buildings---they never behave as the twin towers did. And building seven was a dead give-away. The targets were symbolic---the whole thing was obvious drama and designed that way for effect. If I were a terrorist seriously interested in harming America, I could bring the food-distribution system to a stand-still with four car bombs and there would be a famine in this land. Conspiracies are nothing special, but are an ordinary part of every day politics. And making the term conspiracy taboo is without a doubt a conspiracy in collusion with the spin meisters and opinion fabricators of the world in the interest of all conspirators and against all free and inquiring spirits. But all the conspiracies I’ve mentioned above are small potatoes compared to Nazi Germany and the New World Order. That conspiracy has consistently been pursuing certain goals for hundreds of years and, possibly, for two thousand years and more, or at least since St. Paul conspired with the court philosopher Seneca to turn the cult of Christianity into a state religion. Winston Churchill, as everyone will agree, was a great spirit, a great politician,
RE: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:19 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS) --- In HYPERLINK mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.comFairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I doubt whether anyone on this list will react much to this. If it had been a report connected with any Maharishi operation, the posts would have gone on for days about how corrupt and evil the TM movement is. But Amma is likely to get a pass from those here who reserve their most virulent hatred for one who was originally their benefactor. Strange, isn't it? Indeed. From Rick Archer et al there is only thundering silence when it comes to truths about Amma. (Which I question by the way) The gossip, outright lies and rumours are reserved for the Movement. It's called double standards or hypocrecy. It is backfireing on him now. Largely a matter of time, Nabsters. Too little of it to spend much on FFL. The examma group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/examma/) where Bronte is getting this stuff is for folks who just want to wallow around in their own muck. That group states in its description that “Devotee rebuttals” are not permitted. It adds that “This group is tightly moderated to maintain a safe, nurturing environment for expression and discussion,” which means that anyone attempting to rebut the accusations made there will have their posts deleted. A more balanced group is HYPERLINK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zonehttp://groups.yahoo. com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zone, where criticisms are welcome, but open discussion is allowed. Bronte might want to consider posting her stuff there. Like any enlightened person, Amma is both human and cosmic. Your humanness doesn’t disappear when your cosmic nature dawns. When I criticize things MMY has done, it doesn’t mean I don’t regard him as a mahatma. Like MMY, Amma has health problems, although her organization doesn’t try to hide them. She has diabetes, is somewhat overweight, has diminished lung capacity from a bout of viral pneumonia she got several years ago, and is in a lot of pain from the repetitive motion of hugging millions of people. She also has a human personality. Her formal education ended in the 4th grade when her parents took her out of school to become a family servant. So she’s not a refined, education Indian woman like, say, Karunamayi. She’s of a low caste and grew up in a fishing village, so her language is sometimes coarse. She’s known to have a fiery temper, although I’ve never seen it displayed in my 8 years of visiting her. Her favorite movie is “Beethoven,” about the St. Bernard dog, and when she can, she watches an Indian soap opera in which a devotee stars. Regarding accusations of corruption in her organization, there’s a lot of corruption in India. The police and politicians are always on the take. Amma has a large organization with a lot of money flowing through it and she puts a lot of time and attention into making sure that the money is handled responsibly. I’m sure there have been instances where it hasn’t been, but she does what she can to prevent those. There have been suicides in her ashram. Anyone is welcome there. Thousands live there and 10’s of thousands come and go. On several occasions, unstable people have taken their lives. The rumors of some fanatical devotees in New Delhi roughing up some people who wanted to take down their Amma signs may be true for all I know. You’ll find fanatics in any organization, but on the whole, I have found the quality of the people around Amma, especially those closest to her, to be exemplary. Weigh all the dirt you can find with the good that is done: HYPERLINK http://amma.org/humanitarian-activities/index.htmlhttp://amma.org/humanita rian-activities/index.html. Anyway, I’m not the most qualified Amma defender. I just go see her a couple of times a year, and have never been to her ashram in India. People are welcome to post what they like here, but those who really want to get into a serious discussion would probably do best to start it in HYPERLINK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zonehttp://groups.yahoo. com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zone, where they will find people much better informed than I, both pro- and anti-Amma. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1095 - Release Date: 10/26/2007 7:54 PM
RE: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
Good rap, Archer. I like facts and evidence. Those who accuse me of being a conspiracy nut don't know me very well. My friends, on the other hand, think I'm too much a stickler for facts and evidence. For example, I have never seen any credible evidence that there ever lived a man named Jesus, said to be the Christ. On the other hand, I have seen evidence that virgin birth, the working of miracles, and resurrection have been ascribed to many other so-called avatars. I have seen suggestive evidence that there is such a thing as reincarnation, but no compelling evidence. I have seen suggestive evidence that there might be a God, but no compelling evidence. Same with the gods, and if they do exist, they're assholes in my humble opinion. I have read the book that claims we've been bio-engineered by space aliens, and what a professional historian would say about that book is that there is no direct evidence in it. It is an interpretation of evidence, which is not the same thing as evidence, since it is very easy to give a radically different interpretation of that same evidence. The interpretation is ingenious and possible, but that is not the same as saying it is evidence. I have not read David Icke, so I can't say anything about it, but I suspect that here, too, we are dealing not so much with evidence but with interpretation of evidence; however, I shall keep an open mind about that until I have time to take a closer look---if Bush turns out to be a poisonous lizard, I certainly won't be surprised. I have seen suggestive evidence that there are space aliens, but no compelling evidence. I have seen suggestive evidence that there is life after death, but no compelling evidence. Near death experiences are interesting and suggestive, but near is no cigar. I have seen a student of mine jump to his death from a building and land right in front of my feet. I saw his form made of light jump up from his body. This is evidence of something. But one experience like that is not enough to say just what it is evidence of. I have stood on top of the mountain from which the world of things and the world of thought look like they have but one source. I have also stood on top of the mountain from which the world looks like the world of things and the world of thought can never meet completely. I suspect there are mountain ranges to explore beyond those two peaks. But I would not call any view from any mountain a fact. It is precisely what it says it it is: a view. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of direct evidence that the world of men and women is rife with conspiracies. And until you consider that evidence, calling me a conspiracy nut is just ignorant name-calling; moreover, it is evidence of the lack of education in America that I've been moaning about. My father belonged to a centuries old European ruling class family, and I was expected to marry into such a family when I came of age. I chose not to do so because I knew too much by that time about the conspiracies with which the ruling classes keep the masses in check. My sister chose the path I rejected, and I lived with her in Europe for a year. Heads of governments were regular guests in her home. And again, I saw direct evidence of what had made me reject that life in the first place. We never had dinner guests which didn't require me to be briefed politically ahead of time. a a Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:19 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I doubt whether anyone on this list will react much to this. If it had been a report connected with any Maharishi operation, the posts would have gone on for days about how corrupt and evil the TM movement is. But Amma is likely to get a pass from those here who reserve their most virulent hatred for one who was originally their benefactor. Strange, isn't it? Indeed. From Rick Archer et al there is only thundering silence when it comes to truths about Amma. (Which I question by the way) The gossip, outright lies and rumours are reserved for the Movement. It's called double standards or hypocrecy. It is backfireing on him now. Largely a matter of time, Nabsters. Too little of it to spend much on FFL. The examma group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/examma/) where Bronte is getting this stuff is for folks who just want to wallow around in their own muck. That group states in its description that Devotee rebuttals are not permitted. It adds that This group is tightly moderated to maintain a safe, nurturing environment for expression and discussion, which means that anyone
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:19 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS) --- In HYPERLINK mailto:FairfieldLife% 40yahoogroups.comFairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@ wrote: I doubt whether anyone on this list will react much to this. If it had been a report connected with any Maharishi operation, the posts would have gone on for days about how corrupt and evil the TM movement is. But Amma is likely to get a pass from those here who reserve their most virulent hatred for one who was originally their benefactor. Strange, isn't it? Indeed. From Rick Archer et al there is only thundering silence when it comes to truths about Amma. (Which I question by the way) The gossip, outright lies and rumours are reserved for the Movement. It's called double standards or hypocrecy. It is backfireing on him now. Largely a matter of time, Nabsters. Too little of it to spend much on FFL. The examma group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/examma/) where Bronte is getting this stuff is for folks who just want to wallow around in their own muck. That group states in its description that Devotee rebuttals are not permitted. It adds that This group is tightly moderated to maintain a safe, nurturing environment for expression and discussion, which means that anyone attempting to rebut the accusations made there will have their posts deleted. A more balanced group is HYPERLINK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zonehttp://grou ps.yahoo. com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zone, where criticisms are welcome, but open discussion is allowed. Bronte might want to consider posting her stuff there. Like any enlightened person, Amma is both human and cosmic. Your humanness doesn't disappear when your cosmic nature dawns. When I criticize things MMY has done, it doesn't mean I don't regard him as a mahatma. Like MMY, Amma has health problems, although her organization doesn't try to hide them. She has diabetes, is somewhat overweight, has diminished lung capacity from a bout of viral pneumonia she got several years ago, and is in a lot of pain from the repetitive motion of hugging millions of people. She also has a human personality. Her formal education ended in the 4th grade when her parents took her out of school to become a family servant. So she's not a refined, education Indian woman like, say, Karunamayi. She's of a low caste and grew up in a fishing village, so her language is sometimes coarse. She's known to have a fiery temper, although I've never seen it displayed in my 8 years of visiting her. Her favorite movie is Beethoven, about the St. Bernard dog, and when she can, she watches an Indian soap opera in which a devotee stars. Regarding accusations of corruption in her organization, there's a lot of corruption in India. The police and politicians are always on the take. Amma has a large organization with a lot of money flowing through it and she puts a lot of time and attention into making sure that the money is handled responsibly. I'm sure there have been instances where it hasn't been, but she does what she can to prevent those. There have been suicides in her ashram. Anyone is welcome there. Thousands live there and 10's of thousands come and go. On several occasions, unstable people have taken their lives. The rumors of some fanatical devotees in New Delhi roughing up some people who wanted to take down their Amma signs may be true for all I know. You'll find fanatics in any organization, but on the whole, I have found the quality of the people around Amma, especially those closest to her, to be exemplary. Weigh all the dirt you can find with the good that is done: HYPERLINK http://amma.org/humanitarian- activities/index.htmlhttp://amma.org/humanita rian-activities/index.html. Anyway, I'm not the most qualified Amma defender. I just go see her a couple of times a year, and have never been to her ashram in India. People are welcome to post what they like here, but those who really want to get into a serious discussion would probably do best to start it in HYPERLINK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zonehttp://grou ps.yahoo. com/group/ammachi_free_speech_zone, where they will find people much better informed than I, both pro- and anti-Amma. Balanced writings. All great masters will be furiously attacked. Personally I do not believe in any of the stuff written about Amma, Sai Baba, Muktananda and others. The irony here Rick is that the rumours you are famous for spreading about Maharishi now is starting to hit your own guru. It's sad, and you are a part of the problem.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:05 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS) Balanced writings. All great masters will be furiously attacked. Probably true. Personally I do not believe in any of the stuff written about Amma, Sai Baba, Muktananda and others. I don’t “automatically” believe them but I am open to the possibility that they are true. I rejected the MMY rumors for 30+ years, then when the evidence became overwhelming, I changed my opinion. Doesn’t mean I totally rejected him, just that I had to throw the new information into the mix and make sense of it all. The irony here Rick is that the rumours you are famous for spreading about Maharishi now is starting to hit your own guru. Different rumors, dude. All rumors are not created equal. It's sad, and you are a part of the problem. It’s not sad, and it’s not a problem. Or it is, and I am. However you wish to see it. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1095 - Release Date: 10/26/2007 7:54 PM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
Angela Mailander wrote: Gn the other hand, I've seen plenty of direct evidence that the world of men and women is rife with conspiracies. And until you consider that evidence, calling me a conspiracy nut is just ignorant name-calling; moreover, it is evidence of the lack of education in America that I've been moaning about. My father belonged to a centuries old European ruling class family, and I was expected to marry into such a family when I came of age. I chose not to do so because I knew too much by that time about the conspiracies with which the ruling classes keep the masses in check. My sister chose the path I rejected, and I lived with her in Europe for a year. Heads of governments were regular guests in her home. And again, I saw direct evidence of what had made me reject that life in the first place. We never had dinner guests which didn't require me to be briefed politically ahead of time. a Sometimes when I get called a conspiracy theorist I ask people if they don't believe that wealthy people and top level businessmen strategize too? What we often call conspiracies may often be strategies since they are published openly. But I guess calling someone a strategy theorist doesn't quite have the ring they want. :)
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:05 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS) Balanced writings. All great masters will be furiously attacked. Probably true. Personally I do not believe in any of the stuff written about Amma, Sai Baba, Muktananda and others. I don't automatically believe them but I am open to the possibility that they are true. snip The irony here Rick is that the rumours you are famous for spreading about Maharishi now is starting to hit your own guru. Different rumors, dude. All rumors are not created equal. OK, I'll take your word for it - you're the expert in this field after all.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
I love it: Strategy theorist. Maybe people don't know what a conspiracy actually is. Every scandal involving corruption in high places of government or big business is a conspiracy come to lightand havent we seen our share of Enrons and Attorney firings, etc. lately? The savings and loan crisis of the eighties was a big conspiracy. Every corporation that sells products dangerous to consumers, the tobacco and the pharmaceutical industries, for example, is a conspiracy against those same consumers. Every secret service of every country is, by definition, a conspiratorial society. If a cardinal launders Mafia money in the Vatican bank, then this, too, is a conspiracy, as are all the secret financial dealings of this, the biggest religious corporation/state in the world. When the CIA, in collusion with Mafia hit-men, attempts to murder Fidel Castro, then you can call that a liberal democratic conspiracy in the name of freedom for all I care, but it is a conspiracy just the same. And when the CIA with the help of the industrial giant ITT and a few military men topples a democratically elected government, in Chile, just for example, then we are dealing with a conspiracy, as we are, too, when this same CIA secretly finances Christian-democratic and Social-democratic political parties in Europe, bribes journalists of free media and allegedly independent newspapers, or establishes secret terrorist commandoes, which, of course, doesnt say that every conspiracy is necessarily an evil one. If, as happened in 1985 and at the behest of the CIA, it was attempted to smuggle five tons of synthetic drugs from Germany to the U.S. in order to finance the Contras in Nicaragua with the profits then this is a conspiracy. When, for those same reasons, the national security advisor of an American president works together with the drug bosses of Medellin, then this is a conspiracy, even if President Bush Senior under the aegis of the War against Drugs then tries to remove all the witnesses. When America secretly imports Nazi scientists with the help of the Vatican after the war so that they can continue doing what they had been doing (including medical experiments on human beings) what could this possibly be if not a conspiracy? And when international finance with the assistance of the Communist experiment kept half of Europe at the standard of living of developing countries for decades, then this was a conspiracy. The fact that it depends on the goodwill of a few international banks whether or not a government gets credit and thus is allowed to live is a conspiracy against every single citizen who believes in democracy. And the men who met to plan the Federal Reserve System did so as secretly as any conspirators by their own published admission. These are just a few of the conspiracies I can come up with off the top of my head, but there literally hundreds more. And nineteen Arabs with box cutters! The dumming-down of America has been especially successful if people can believe that. I've seen what airplanes do when they hit buildings---they never behave as the twin towers did. And building seven was a dead give-away. The targets were symbolic---the whole thing was obvious drama and designed that way for effect. If I were a terrorist seriously interested in harming America, I could bring the food-distribution system to a stand-still with four car bombs and there would be a famine in this land. Conspiracies are nothing special, but are an ordinary part of every day politics. And making the term conspiracy taboo is without a doubt a conspiracy in collusion with the spin meisters and opinion fabricators of the world in the interest of all conspirators and against all free and inquiring spirits. But all the conspiracies Ive mentioned above are small potatoes compared to Nazi Germany and the New World Order. That conspiracy has consistently been pursuing certain goals for hundreds of years and, possibly, for two thousand years and more, or at least since St. Paul conspired with the court philosopher Seneca to turn the cult of Christianity into a state religion. Winston Churchill, as everyone will agree, was a great spirit, a great politician, certainly no dunce, and this great European for sure did not suffer from any sort of paranoia. Yet none other than he (and who, if not Churchill, would have known) spoke unmistakably of an international conspiracy. Similarly, the British Prime Minister between 1874 and 1880, Viscount and Lord Beaconsfield, Benjamin DIsraeli, repeatedly spoke about the existence of a secret and globe-encircling organization and said, The world is governed by completely different personalities than those who cannot see behind the scenes believe. In Nazi Germany those personalities became almost visible. Now, it is true that you have to dig a little to find out what was going on. Books published in English
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I doubt whether anyone on this list will react much to this. If it had been a report connected with any Maharishi operation, the posts would have gone on for days about how corrupt and evil the TM movement is. But Amma is likely to get a pass from those here who reserve their most virulent hatred for one who was originally their benefactor. Strange, isn't it? Indeed. From Rick Archer et al there is only thundering silence when it comes to truths about Amma. (Which I question by the way) The gossip, outright lies and rumours are reserved for the Movement. It's called double standards or hypocrecy. It is backfireing on him now.
[FairfieldLife] Fwd: [examma] Re: Facts Evidence (MORE LINKS)
I doubt whether anyone on this list will react much to this. If it had been a report connected with any Maharishi operation, the posts would have gone on for days about how corrupt and evil the TM movement is. But Amma is likely to get a pass from those here who reserve their most virulent hatred for one who was originally their benefactor. Strange, isn't it? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bronte Baxter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apparently dead bodies have been appearing floating in the water outside Amma's Math Ashram in India. See the attachment for an Indian Express newspaper article on this, accounts of two such bodies found, plus three mysterious sudden deaths associated with the ashram. See the second attachment for a devotee's own story of finding a dead body and how the ashram reacted to the incident. Note: forwarded message attached. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Here is one good place to start: http://www.geocities.com/fake_avatar/Disappear01.htm Also, there are quite a few articles on http://www.cultofthehuggingsaint.com In fact, pretty much every article I have seen/read is also on this site. Here is a link to the tax exempt info and info on M.A. Center.They are listed as a Religious organization and Church: http://www.taxexemptworld.com/organization.asp?tn=1363284 Keep in mind, M.A. Center is the US based ashram in San Ramon, CA. M.A. Math is based in India. M.A. Center PO BOX 613 SAN RAMON, CA, 94583-0613 Employee Identification Number: 943044871 Ruling Date: September 1987 Deductions: Contributions are deductible Foundation Type: Church Activity: Church, synagogue, etc Organization Type: Corporation Filing Requirement: 990 - Not required to file (church). No 990PF return. Fiscal Year End Date: December Asset Amount: $0 Income Amount: $0 Form 990 Revenue Amount: $0 Violet, Can you provide links to former posts? I have read most of them and find nothing that points to death at the ashrams or deaths linked to Amma - perhaps I missed this... Bronte, if you find these posts, will you paste the links here again? About the financial issues - the fact is - and I will quote a book I am reading called Take back your Life - about cult abuse... When questioning the financial legitimacy of a cult - the book says this Is there an annual financial report? Every bona-fide church, charity or non-profit organization makes this information readily available to the public. If someone provides me the name(s) of any of Amma's charities or corporations, I will try to get this information. If someone knows the answer to this already, let me know. Thanks, Gina --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], violetdoves no_reply@ wrote: BRONTE WRITES: How so? What makes her untouchable? This has all been talked about before. If you go through the older posts here you will get the gist. The ashram is heavily tied into the government in India, and that, coupled up with guru culture in India makes her untouchable. This is why her ashram residents could nearly beat to death a group of villagers and the police did nothing about it. Not to mention, most of her devotees teeter at the edge of sanity, and would go to any lengths to protect her name. In regard to your question of deaths, like I said above, this has already been discussed so I don't want to take the time to write it all out again. It's there in the biographies, it's there in the Sreeni Pattathanam case, it's there in the testimony of another person on here who made an account of seeing a dead body in the ashram backwaters, it's there in the threats her organization makes against those who go against her. I have not seen or experienced anything directly, but after copious amounts of research and talking to others...it's all there, and it is all worthy of investigation in my opinion. In regard to investigating the financial issues, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think MA Center and MA Math are required by law to disclose their tax stuff or any other records for that matter unless a case was brought against them. They are registered under Church, so it gives them much less accountability. I think you'd have a better chance of finding the Holy Grail than of getting any kind of financial disclosure on the charitable activities or hospitals. Though, I would LOVE to see what the hell is really going on at AIMS. So many people have said that the thing is a sham. Violet
