Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Right. People who get college degrees get higher-paying jobs and can afford more. By the time those people are higher paying jobs they will no longer be eligible for academic pricing. Its only while at college. I doubt a company would base its academic pricing on your potential future earnings. Besides, by the time they are in the workforce, they will be at the point of upgrading Finale, not buying it. And upgrading costs the same for all. RockyRoad -- ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
When I ordered my copy from jwpepper on a theological discount (our community band is an off-shoot of the local church) I asked how I had to prove my association to receive the discount. They told me what sort of materials Coda Music Technology required and that if I satisfied Coda, I was all set. I contacted Coda Music and they said that if I satisfied the place I was ordering through, I was all set. Realizing that both parties were figuring the other was vetting my credentials, I ordered the theological discount and was never questioned again. I had the secretary of the church ready to write a letter confirming my association with the church just in case, but she never had to do that. Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Carlberg Jones wrote wrote, in part: : MTNA = Music Teachers National Association http://www.mtna.org/home.htm to which Phil daily responded, i part An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? prompting Brad Beyenhof to rejoin Because there is no way to prove that. They ask for membership in an organization because Coda does not have the time to check up on every single request for academic pricing. Every request must have some proof: students need a copy of school ID or school bill, universities need an institutional purchase order, etc. However, I submit that there used to be (and I would guess still may well be) a way for a private teacher who is not part of MTNA to obtain academic pricing on the basis of private teaching load. Obtain it from a local dealer. As it happens, at the time I first bought Finale, I was planning to buy it direct so I could take advantage of theological pricing. However, when I was buying the MIDI-equipped digital piano I was planning to use with the software, a customer came in and stated she had been referred from one of the other local branches of the same chain, and given instructions to ask for the educational co-ordinator, who happened to be waiting on me at the time. The EC had been alerted to expect this customer who proceeded to purchase Finale at the Educational discount, on the strength of this teacher's previous purchase history for method books and sheet music with the store. When the EC completed that transaction and returned to helping me, I commented that I hadn't realized that academic discounts were available through local dealers, and asked about the theological discount I was planning to use to purchase my copy, and based upon the EC's knowledge that I was involved in the music department of a religious organization, I was extended the appropriate discount, as well. ns ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, Aug 21, 2003, at 21:37 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: Right. People who get college degrees get higher-paying jobs and can afford more. Sometimes they do. Often they don't (music being a case in point). The point is that they then pay full price for software, when they can afford to. Seems reasonable to me. If the rationale is to help poor struggling individuals who can't afford to pay as much -- as John Croft seemed to suggest I didn't suggest that was the rationale (although not all student discounts are simply to get people hooked). My point was that the principle of offering lower prices to those who (1) need to have software in order to complete their studies and (2) have a very low income, is not something that we should complain about. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- That also describes most of the professional artists I know. Well, I'd be in favour of a struggling artist discount as well -- only, it's easier to decide who is really a student that assess people's claims really to be an artist. Student loan debt is about the cheapest rate that one can buy. I don't see why special sympathy should go to those who are able to borrow money at a lower rate than almost anyone else can. Erm, because if you didn't do that, then only those whose family could afford to pay up front, or those who knew that their degrees would get them highly-paid jobs (i.e. law and management students, but not music or philosophy students) would be able to afford to go to university. Obvious, really. If you don't want to have debt, don't borrow the money. Well done. The problem is that banks and the government push debt on people when they're too young to understand what they're getting into. I agree with you there. But the only fair alternative would seem to be grants. Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? Sure, I hear that all the time. It's true, too, depending on what you mean by society. I'll save that one for another time. I think, John, that you have me pegged in the wrong category. I'm not a wealthy, privileged, kick-down-the-ladder-behind-me, country club conservative; I'm an anti-establishment, we-don't-need-no-thought-control, conspiracy-theory nut. Ah, I see. It's just that people who complain about paying taxes and financial assistance to students tend to come from the far right, in my experience. But learning that you're into conspiracy theories sets my mind at rest. John Dr John Croft Lecturer in Music University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9RQ http://www.bmic.co.uk/Composers/nv_details.asp?ComposerID=2758 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, Aug 21, 2003, at 22:13 Europe/London, John Howell wrote: Perhaps Dr Croft could confirm that in the English system of higher education scholarships were originally awarded on merit to scholars who could not live off daddy's money becuase daddy didn't have enough to send them to college! I think that was the intention, yes -- although I don't know a great deal about the history of scholarships. These days, at least, they are most often on ability alone (i.e. not means-tested). But of course, it is only in the past few years, in theory at least, that a scholarship would have been necessary, since university tuition in the UK was free until 1998, and students received a maintenance grant regardless of their background. (This is still the case for the very poorest students.) Here in Virginia and in quite a few other states the state budgets are in crisis, and one of the first things to get cut is support for higher education. We've been hit with millions in reductions, and we're losing top faculty because of it. Indeed. Unfortunately this kind of mistakes only become apparent to most people in the long term, since we inhabit a society in which we are encouraged not to look beyond our own noses. Yours Comrade Dr Croft Dr John Croft Lecturer in Music University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9RQ http://www.bmic.co.uk/Composers/nv_details.asp?ComposerID=2758 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 8/21/2003 03:54 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: This is also why one shouldn't get upset about paying $1,400 for an airline seat at the gate and sitting next to someone who paid $200 -- That's me, I flew from Manchester, NH to San Diego 2 weeks ago for $99. Someone pointed out to me that I should wait for the next Pre-something release as I already have an old version and would then get a better discount than the professional one. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 07:29 AM 8/22/2003, Phil Daley wrote: Someone pointed out to me that I should wait for the next Pre-something release as I already have an old version and would then get a better discount than the professional one. Even ordering the regular, non-pre-order upgrade to 2004 will be about half the price of the academic discount off the full price. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On 22 Aug 2003 at 11:39, John Croft wrote: My point was that the principle of offering lower prices to those who (1) need to have software in order to complete their studies and (2) have a very low income, is not something that we should complain about. Another thing that I think people are forgetting is that every software vendor that I know about has academic discounts. For Microsoft Office, I would pay $400-500 for a full package, but with an academic discount it's $175. The reasons are the same all around -- get them using the software in school and they are likely to stay with it and buy upgrades. If you don't catch them in school, someone else will, and the upgrade revenue will go to someone else. Academic discounts are good for all users of Finale because they are a way for Coda to continually add to the user base that buys upgrades and keeps the company afloat. And in the end, what matters it the direct competition: Sibelius has an academic discount, so Finale must have one, too. Coda has already lost enough educational business to Sibelius because of being late with an OS X version. Dropping the academic discount would sound the death knell for most of Finale's remaining academic business, and all of us who use Finale would probably be out of luck. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Friday, August 22, 2003, at 02:39 AM, John Croft wrote: Well, I'd be in favour of a struggling artist discount as well -- only, it's easier to decide who is really a student that assess people's claims really to be an artist. I can show a resume full of performances which were done for cheap or for free, as well as plenty of volunteer work with community groups -- and I'm sure plenty of others on this list could do likewise. But for me it's all moot now anyway, since I started with version 3.5 (and I did have a proper day job then, come to think of it). [...] I'll save that one for another time. Probably best we just drop it altogether. In a few days I'll be back on the road and unsubscribed again. Anyway, the others on the list probably don't want to hear it mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 21:40 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. Don't forget that the academic discount does not apply to upgrades, only the original purchase. We academic types pay the same price to move up versions as everyone else does. It's only the initial hook and set that gets us a discount. And not a bad idea, either, IMHO. Where I went to school for my Master's, the computer lab was DONATED by Apple, so my first computer experience was entirely Mac. When it was time to choose a computer for myself, of course I went with what I knew, and I have been Mac ever since. So the hundred thousand dollars or so Apple spent on that lab came back to them many times over if the other students were like me. Hook 'em young, and they'll stay with ya forever! (cigarettes and computers, anyway!) ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 06:22 PM, John Croft wrote: On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 21:40 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. Your poor thing. For goodness' sake. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- the rest end up with a debt that takes decades to pay off. Moreover, they are required to present work that has been word-processed, or in the case of music students, typeset in Finale or similar. Or are you of the opinion that access to education should be dependent on daddy's income? Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? They will all pay full price for software when they have proper jobs like your righteous self. I realise that you inhabit a culture which has difficulty with anything that can't be reduced to money, but some people have other motives for being educated, and simply cannot afford to buy hundreds of pounds worth of software at full price. Maybe your ire should be reserved for the executives who make enough in a month to provide fresh water to several million for a year. As someone who has been a full-time student *very* recently, I stand in the middle of these two opinions. I got my first Finale (2000) at the academic discount when I was a college freshman, but I have bought all succeeding versions at the same price as any other upgrade. Like Allen Fisher said, if it weren't for the academic discount on Finale, I definitely would not have the job I have today. Academic musicians (as far as I can tell) are the largest definable group that are customers for notation programs, and new freshmen each year provide an expanding customer base of people who are potential long-time customers like myself. I think it's a smart business decision... Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 8/21/2003 11:21 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: I think it's a smart business decision... Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. private music teachers I didn't know that. Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 09:40 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 11:21 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: I think it's a smart business decision... Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. private music teachers I didn't know that. Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. Yeah... all they need to see is proof of membership in the MTNA. However, all that does is get you a $300 first copy (instead of $600). It doesn't make upgrades any cheaper. However, you should be able to upgrade to 2004 from any version for something like $140. I know that currently you can upgrade to 2003 from any version for $160, so the pre-order price of 2004 would definitely be cheaper than that. Of course, you'd have to be using a Mac, since the PC version has already shipped and is therefore no longer a pre-order. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 12:40 PM 8/21/2003, Phil Daley wrote: Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. The academic upgrade only applies to full-price purchases -- subsequent upgrades are the same price for everybody. So while it would cost you $300 to buy Finale 2004 with the academic pricing (half of the full price), it would only cost you $159 to upgrade your existing Finale (regular upgrade price for pre-2002 versions). Also, http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/academic.asp makes it seem as though private music teachers are eligible for a special price when jumping to Finale from another Coda product, but not for the discount on just buying Finale right off. At least, private music teachers are mentioned explicitly in the first case but not the second. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 8/21/2003 01:18 PM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 09:40 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 11:21 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: I think it's a smart business decision... Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. private music teachers I didn't know that. Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. Yeah... all they need to see is proof of membership in the MTNA. What is MTNA? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 10:24 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 12:40 PM 8/21/2003, Phil Daley wrote: Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. The academic upgrade only applies to full-price purchases -- subsequent upgrades are the same price for everybody. So while it would cost you $300 to buy Finale 2004 with the academic pricing (half of the full price), it would only cost you $159 to upgrade your existing Finale (regular upgrade price for pre-2002 versions). Also, http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/academic.asp makes it seem as though private music teachers are eligible for a special price when jumping to Finale from another Coda product, but not for the discount on just buying Finale right off. At least, private music teachers are mentioned explicitly in the first case but not the second. Yes, but if you download the Academic/Theological order form (not the trade-up form) you will find that MTNA members are mentioned. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
MTNA = Music Teachers National Association. It's one of, if not the largest, professional guilds for private music teachers (a lot like the National Guild of Organists, except for private music teachers). I was a member for about six months before I gave up teaching entirely. http://www.mtna.org/home.htm -Original Message- From: Phil Daley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:33 PM To: Finale Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review At 8/21/2003 01:18 PM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 09:40 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 11:21 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: I think it's a smart business decision... Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. private music teachers I didn't know that. Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. Yeah... all they need to see is proof of membership in the MTNA. What is MTNA? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Private music teachers have to belong to a nationally recognized organization such as Music Teachers of America (I think that's the name) or Suzuki Association of the Americas. Just the ordinary musician who teaches music lessons is s$#t out of luck! Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 11:21 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: I think it's a smart business decision... Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. private music teachers I didn't know that. Since I am running 3.7.2 perhaps I should upgrade, since my wife is a private music teacher. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 8/21/2003 01:42 PM, Carlberg Jones wrote: MTNA = Music Teachers National Association http://www.mtna.org/home.htm An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://personal.monad.net/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 1:53 PM -0400 8/21/03, Phil Daley wrote: An how does joining that group [MTNA] certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? About the same way that belonging to a musicians union certifies that a person is a professional musician, I'd guess, not having checked out the URL for the MTNA. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO 011-52-473-731-0179 Cel. 011-52-473-560-8020 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 10:53 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 01:42 PM, Carlberg Jones wrote: MTNA = Music Teachers National Association http://www.mtna.org/home.htm An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? Because there is no way to prove that. They ask for membership in an organization because Coda does not have the time to check up on every single request for academic pricing. Every request must have some proof: students need a copy of school ID or school bill, universities need an institutional purchase order, etc. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Every request must have some proof I doubt that. It seems to depend on where you order. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 11:57 AM, Tobias Giesen wrote: Every request must have some proof I doubt that. It seems to depend on where you order. Well, I was only talking about ordering from Coda. I'm sure there are unscrupulous dealers out there who don't check. - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On 21 Aug 2003 at 13:53, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 01:42 PM, Carlberg Jones wrote: MTNA = Music Teachers National Association http://www.mtna.org/home.htm An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? What method would *you* suggest for verification of someone's status as a music teacher? Membership in a relevant professional organization or employment by an appropriate academic institution seem to me to be the only logical ways Coda could have to verify this kind of thing. And, as has been pointed out, it's a one-time thing -- it applies to your first purchase. I got Finale 2.0.1 for Windows 3.0 back in 1991 at academic discount. Each time I've upgraded (to 3.5.2, to 97 and to 2K3), I've paid the same price for upgrade as the people who paid full price for their first copy. So, over time, I haven't really saved that much money myself, nor cost Coda any revenue. Indeed, had I not paid the reduced price on the front end, I would not be buying upgrades. Coda lost $500-odd dollars on the front end, but since they've made $375 or so more from my upgrades. In total, they've gotten a little over $600. Had I paid full price, they would have made $1,100 over the same period. But if $750 was the only option, I'd have started using Score back then, instead (my department had a license for it), and never would have used Finale at all (well, maybe by the time Score became more or less moribund I would have switched, but by then Sibelius was an option). So, the cost difference for Coda is not $500 that they lost with the academic discount, but the full $600 that I spent since then. And does this help the people who paid full price? Absolutely! Coda needs customers, and they need to get them any way they can. The more people use Finale the bigger the customer base to support long-term improvements to the product. This is also why one shouldn't get upset about paying $1,400 for an airline seat at the gate and sitting next to someone who paid $200 -- it's the person planning ahead and paying the $200 a month in advance that makes it possible for you to pay $1,400 at the gate instead of $3,000 or more. Yield management may make the price for individual seats wildly different, but it also insures that the airline overall can provide the most efficient prices, ones that best recover their costs while also allowing them a reasonable profit margin. And it insures that the airline can know that they will be flying with most seats full, as opposed to requiring a small number of passengers who are willing to pay full price to subsidize the whole trip. Coda has the same requirements -- they could charge everyone full price and have fewer passengers or they could give price breaks for some and increase the number of people served. In the long run, even the people who pay the higher price benefit from the price breaks they never qualified for because of the increased customer base. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 01:53 PM 8/21/2003 -0400, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 01:42 PM, Carlberg Jones wrote: MTNA = Music Teachers National Association http://www.mtna.org/home.htm An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? It can't. I see that in my entire state (Indiana) there are a grand total of 2 members. Nice flash web site they have though. The Texan expression, I believe, is All hat and no cattle. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 21:40 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. Your poor thing. For goodness' sake. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- the rest end up with a debt that takes decades to pay off. Moreover, they are required to present work that has been word-processed, or in the case of music students, typeset in Finale or similar. Or are you of the opinion that access to education should be dependent on daddy's income? Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? They will all pay full price for software when they have proper jobs like your righteous self. I realise that you inhabit a culture which has difficulty with anything that can't be reduced to money, but some people have other motives for being educated, and simply cannot afford to buy hundreds of pounds worth of software at full price. Maybe your ire should be reserved for the executives who make enough in a month to provide fresh water to several million for a year. Dr John Croft Lecturer in Music University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9RQ Taxpayers, Mark? Perhaps you are referring to scholarships or other financial aid. But what, really, are scholarships but discounts on the cost of an education, awarded hopefully because of proven academic excellence, musical achievement, or (sigh) athletic prowess. Not, in other words, available to everyone, but to a chosen few. Perhaps Dr Croft could confirm that in the English system of higher education scholarships were originally awarded on merit to scholars who could not live off daddy's money becuase daddy didn't have enough to send them to college! And John is quite correct in that most financial aid packages emphasize student loans, guaranteeing a heavy load of debt on graduation. Here in Virginia and in quite a few other states the state budgets are in crisis, and one of the first things to get cut is support for higher education. We've been hit with millions in reductions, and we're losing top faculty because of it. So I'll take those academic discounts and be thankful for them! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
From: Phil Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED] An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? Why the challenging tone? There are professional organizations aplenty, and only in a few instances is it essential for a professional in that field to belong. BUT...if someone doesn't want to be part of it, so be it! No big whoopie. Professional organizations often do very good work in the area of legislative activism (if their field needs it), consumer education, skills development (workshops, continuing education), member services (group insurance, for example, other benefits for the members), discounted costs on materials and products (group buying or group marketing), professional/social fellowship (conferences, conventions, even social travel), sponsoring research, offering scholarships...and so on! There CAN be, in the mind of the consumer, a certain credentialing aura attached to membership in a professional organization. Whether wrong or right, deserved or not, it's out of anyone's control what the consumer thinks, other than marketing efforts one way or the other. --Richard ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 01:03 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote: At 01:53 PM 8/21/2003 -0400, Phil Daley wrote: At 8/21/2003 01:42 PM, Carlberg Jones wrote: MTNA = Music Teachers National Association http://www.mtna.org/home.htm An how does joining that group certify that my wife is a music teacher more than giving 30+ years of piano lessons to 50+ students a week? It can't. Sure it can't, but how else do you propose that Coda check up on that? I see that in my entire state (Indiana) there are a grand total of 2 members. Those aren't total members. That's just a list of new members. I have no idea how new they mean, but still... Nice flash web site they have though. The Texan expression, I believe, is All hat and no cattle. I would think that the high-quality presentation would point to the fact that they have much more support than you're acknowledging. On the flip side, though... they used to allow membership in MENC (Music Educators' National Convention, the organization to which most of my private-teacher friends belong) as proof in addition to MTNA. I wonder what happened there... - Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
And, lest we forget, academic discounts apply to teachers too, who are not exactly overpaid. Ken - Original Message - From: John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 21:40 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. Your poor thing. For goodness' sake. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- the rest end up with a debt that takes decades to pay off. Moreover, they are required to present work that has been word-processed, or in the case of music students, typeset in Finale or similar. Or are you of the opinion that access to education should be dependent on daddy's income? Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? They will all pay full price for software when they have proper jobs like your righteous self. I realise that you inhabit a culture which has difficulty with anything that can't be reduced to money, but some people have other motives for being educated, and simply cannot afford to buy hundreds of pounds worth of software at full price. Maybe your ire should be reserved for the executives who make enough in a month to provide fresh water to several million for a year. Dr John Croft Lecturer in Music University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9RQ Taxpayers, Mark? Perhaps you are referring to scholarships or other financial aid. But what, really, are scholarships but discounts on the cost of an education, awarded hopefully because of proven academic excellence, musical achievement, or (sigh) athletic prowess. Not, in other words, available to everyone, but to a chosen few. Perhaps Dr Croft could confirm that in the English system of higher education scholarships were originally awarded on merit to scholars who could not live off daddy's money becuase daddy didn't have enough to send them to college! And John is quite correct in that most financial aid packages emphasize student loans, guaranteeing a heavy load of debt on graduation. Here in Virginia and in quite a few other states the state budgets are in crisis, and one of the first things to get cut is support for higher education. We've been hit with millions in reductions, and we're losing top faculty because of it. So I'll take those academic discounts and be thankful for them! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 07:21 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Like Allen Fisher said, if it weren't for the academic discount on Finale, I definitely would not have the job I have today. Right. People who get college degrees get higher-paying jobs and can afford more. If the rationale is to help poor struggling individuals who can't afford to pay as much -- as John Croft seemed to suggest -- then surely it makes more sense to offer the discount to those who have never been to college. I think it's a smart business decision... Sure. No argument there. That's the real reason, not any sort of sympathy for the underprivileged. Coda (for that is what they were called at the time) sure hooked me on their product for a lifetime by extending the academic discount. Also, you must remember that the academic discount covers not only college students but college professors and even private music teachers, and its companion theological discount is extended to music ministers. So favor is not merely being shown to the students. Right, favor is being shown to the entire educational establishment. On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 06:22 PM, John Croft wrote: Your poor thing. For goodness' sake. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- That also describes most of the professional artists I know. the rest end up with a debt that takes decades to pay off. Student loan debt is about the cheapest rate that one can buy. I don't see why special sympathy should go to those who are able to borrow money at a lower rate than almost anyone else can. If you don't want to have debt, don't borrow the money. The problem is that banks and the government push debt on people when they're too young to understand what they're getting into. Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? Sure, I hear that all the time. It's true, too, depending on what you mean by society. I realise that you inhabit a culture which has difficulty with anything that can't be reduced to money, but some people have other motives for being educated I'm all for learning, I just don't like the school system. I think, John, that you have me pegged in the wrong category. I'm not a wealthy, privileged, kick-down-the-ladder-behind-me, country club conservative; I'm an anti-establishment, we-don't-need-no-thought-control, conspiracy-theory nut. (I guess being back in Alaska brings it out in me) -- On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 06:59 AM, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: Hook 'em young, and they'll stay with ya forever! (cigarettes and computers, anyway!) He gives the kids free samples Because he knows full well That today's young innocent faces Will be tomorrow's clientele. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. I imagine the reduced rate is to get students using and learning the software so that is what they will choose when in professional situations, and may continue to use the rest of their life. It is only the first purchase that is cheaper; upgrades are as expensive for them as everyone else, so over their lifetime they save about $350 compared to the non-academic. Note, many students are NOT living off their parents. None I know of are living off taxpayers. Most of my students are living off loans. When they graduate they are often $40,00 to $50,000 or more in debt, after a 4-year period, or 5- or 6-year if doing a Master's degree, when they have been earning little or no income (and owning nothing, so getting no home equity, etc.), paying tuition to the tune of $5,000- $8,000 (or much more elsewhere) per year, plus paying rent, food, required books at more than $100 each, plus other software. (For example, to be a graduate student at a univ. or conservatory in NYC can cost more than $40,000 per year.) Teachers and professors generally earn about 30-60% of what others with similar education levels earn. A PhD these days can run to $120,000 by the time the student is finished, yet the student has often spent six to twelve years in university with little or no income. GJC ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
What is MTNA? Phil Daley AutoDesk Music Teachers National Association. But membership on the faculty of a college with a music department is sufficient to get the discount. Hal -- Harold Owen 2830 Emerald St., Eugene, OR 97403 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit my web site at: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~hjowen FAX: (509) 461-3608 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Craig Parmerlee wrote: [snip] I realize you are thinking about a different set of principles, but that doesn't make Finale's value judgment wrong. I personally know a number of people who have stolen the Finale software in the past, and most of them are not clever enough to locate a crack for it, assuming one is developed. I hate the idea of having to pay 200% more than the person sitting next to me on an airplane. I hate the idea of paying full price for Finale while others are just stealing it. I like the idea that most of those Finale thieves will be unhappy, and I am willing to deal with the registration process in order to have that little bit of satisfaction. Interesting juxtaposition of principles here. The principle that it is alright to put in copy protection which inconveniences honest customers is a strong one, but the principle where you would turn in a thief you knew about is one that you don't believe in? You know of people using pirated versions of Finale yet you didn't contact MakeMusic, so they could do something about the very piracy that has forced them to take the stand of including copy protection. What principle is that? If I see somebody breaking into a store and stealing I call the police. I would imagine most of us would. Why wouldn't you call the software police when you knew someone was using illegally obtained software? I guess it's just easier to force everybody to deal with copy protection than to have to turn in friends and associates as software pirates! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 07:47 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Outrage is not a relevant reason for making a business decision. The only reason is: this will make more money in the long run. Now there's an interesting observation. It could explain a lot about the business world -- On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 09:14 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote: I realize you are thinking about a different set of principles, but that doesn't make Finale's value judgment wrong. I personally know a number of people who have stolen the Finale software in the past, and most of them are not clever enough to locate a crack for it, assuming one is developed. I hate the idea of having to pay 200% more than the person sitting next to me on an airplane. I hate the idea of paying full price for Finale while others are just stealing it. That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. (Yes, yes, I know, not all students meet that description, but a lot of them do.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On 20 Aug 2003 at 0:14, Craig Parmerlee wrote: At 11:47 PM 8/19/2003 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: Outrage is not a relevant reason for making a business decision. The only reason is: this will make more money in the long run. Changing your product to try to force money from people that have already shown they are dishonest while also inconveniencing the people who have already demonstrated honesty and loyalty seems to me a very odd thing to do, outrage or no. The point I was trying to make is that there are principles other than maximizing the bottom line. The world is not money. Money is just a medium to simplify commerce. When people invest effort in building something of value, commerce is not the only reward. My point is that it is a perfectly sensible thing for MM to do if they feel strongly about the principle of thwarting freeloaders and thieves. It doesn't have to relate to a bottom line benefit. Sometimes the principle is reason enough. All of this is perfectly true for you as an individual programmer. For a publicly held company like the one Coda is a part of, it is not a valid justification for a business decision. Indeed, it could be grounds for shareholders to demand a change of management. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. I feel your pain, too. If it weren't for an academic discount on Finale, though, I don't think I'd be working where I am today... ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 21:40 Europe/London, Mark D Lew wrote: That's approximately how I feel about academic discounts. I understand the software company's motivation for offering them, of course, but it still ticks me off to know that kids who are living off their parents and/or taxpayers get a better deal than others who have to work for a living. Your poor thing. For goodness' sake. The majority of students I know (and I know a few) struggle to attend lectures because they have to work to pay the rent, and those few who receive government grants have to survive on about half the minimum wage -- the rest end up with a debt that takes decades to pay off. Moreover, they are required to present work that has been word-processed, or in the case of music students, typeset in Finale or similar. Or are you of the opinion that access to education should be dependent on daddy's income? Did it ever occur to you that whole societies benefit from education? They will all pay full price for software when they have proper jobs like your righteous self. I realise that you inhabit a culture which has difficulty with anything that can't be reduced to money, but some people have other motives for being educated, and simply cannot afford to buy hundreds of pounds worth of software at full price. Maybe your ire should be reserved for the executives who make enough in a month to provide fresh water to several million for a year. John Dr John Croft Lecturer in Music University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9RQ http://www.bmic.co.uk/Composers/nv_details.asp?ComposerID=2758 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
[I was off on vacation for 3 weeks and just got back last night, so I'm replying to a very old message to clarify a couple of things] On 8 Aug 2003 at 17:01, Tobias Giesen wrote: Dennis: I'm not a tech junkie, and my tools are not obsolete. Forgive me, but Windows 98 IS obsolete. It's a piece of you-know-what. Admittedly, it's not your fault that it took Microsoft until Windows XP to get it right. MS got it right with Windows 2000, and then, in my opinion, mucked it up with WinXP. ... if you can show me one thing that I need to do on XP that I can't do on 98SE, go ahead. I can leave the PC running for weeks without rebooting. It NEVER crashes. It can have transparent windows. And, quite importantly, it looks nice. I have come to feel quite unconfortable with the old, old Windows look of the last decade. I have left my PC on for weeks for several years, running NT 4 first, and then running Win2K. I used Finale on a Win95 box that I rebooted every day, but which was absolutely stable when up and running, because I took good care of it. Obviously, not everyone has the expertise for that, but to say that WinXP was the first decent version of Windows is to ignore It can make good use of my dual-processor machine with 1 GB RAM. I need that power to compile TGTools and compress video in the background ;=) ... Windows XP lets me have dozens (sic!) of application windows open without the slightest delay switching between them. And of course, without ever crashing (I said that). etc. etc. etc. You could have done those things with NT 4 a long time ago, and with Win2K for the last several years. WinXP was not the first version of Windows to be fast and stable. I just couldn't do what I do with Windows 98SE. It would be impossible. I never liked Win98 and avoided it, because by the time it came out, NT 4 was the obvious choice for stability and ease of use. However, Finale was a problem with that until WinFin98 (or was it WinFin2K?), so for heavy Finale users it wouldn't have worked. But Win2K has always been a very good version of Windows. Indeed, I have no plans to upgrade to WinXP until absolutely forced to do so. All of my clients with it are having far too many problems with it for me to advise using it. Of course, if you were coming to it from Win9x, it would look like a great OS, but that's only if you haven't used Win2K regularly for comparison. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
[again, coming in on a discussion that occurred while I was on vacation] On 8 Aug 2003 at 11:36, Craig Parmerlee wrote: As a software author myself, one who has been victimized by piracy and cracks (just like everyone else), I must disagree with the sentiments you expressed. I find the new Finale policy quite reasonable. Anybody who intended to live honestly by the license should have little difficulty with this As a software developer who has also been stolen from, I support Dennis's position. Honest customers will be honest no matter what. Dishonest ones, likewise, will not generate any more income for you. All you do with copy protection schemes is inconvenience legitimate users, the ones who won't steal from you in the first place. MakeMusic is entitled to make money from their efforts. I hope they make loads of money, because that means it is more likely that they will continue to produce new releases that make all of us more productive. And if we are more productive, we make more money. Coda would make more money by treating their honest customer base with more respect. I just upgraded to WinFin2003 (from WinFin97), and was very happy with the upgrade, since I was getting a huge number of features introduced over many years. I don't intend to upgrade again for a couple more years, so I'm hoping the copy protection thing is out of the way by then. If I were hurting for features, though, I'd be pretty annoyed. However, I do appear to have pretty good timing, twice now upgrading just before the implementation of copy protection! -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 05:34 PM 8/19/2003 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: As a software developer who has also been stolen from, I support Dennis's position. Honest customers will be honest no matter what. Dishonest ones, likewise, will not generate any more income for you. All you do with copy protection schemes is inconvenience legitimate users, the ones who won't steal from you in the first place. That may be true, but at some point an author should be entitled to a little pride of ownership. I worked hard to build a product I was proud of. It outraged me to find that people were willing to go to so much effort to steal the fruits of my labors. I originally had a very simple protection scheme that was open to reverse engineering. When I found that every single release of mine had recently been cracked by multiple parties, I adopted a far more secure system. A google search reveals 225 sites offering cracks to my earlier versions. It is 150 days now and nobody is offering any cracks for my latest version. I won't say it is uncrackable. Of course, with enough resources and motivation, anything is possible, but there are technologies that radically raise the bar on crack-artists. Most of the cracks seem to have been developed in Russia. And I'll admit that I haven't been swimming in rubles since I closed the door on crack-artists. But the point is that I am much happier now. The people at MakeMusic have worked very hard to produce an excellent product. If they don't like the idea of people by the tens of thousands (and I think we can all agree that the problem is easily of that magnitude) stealing their product, surely it is their prerogative to take counter measures, even if that doesn't result in any additional profit. In other words, sometimes the principle is the most important thing. Just my opinion, Craig ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On 19 Aug 2003 at 21:57, Craig Parmerlee wrote: At 05:34 PM 8/19/2003 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: As a software developer who has also been stolen from, I support Dennis's position. Honest customers will be honest no matter what. Dishonest ones, likewise, will not generate any more income for you. All you do with copy protection schemes is inconvenience legitimate users, the ones who won't steal from you in the first place. That may be true, but at some point an author should be entitled to a little pride of ownership. I worked hard to build a product I was proud of. It outraged me to find that people were willing to go to so much effort to steal the fruits of my labors. Outrage is not a relevant reason for making a business decision. The only reason is: this will make more money in the long run. Changing your product to try to force money from people that have already shown they are dishonest while also inconveniencing the people who have already demonstrated honesty and loyalty seems to me a very odd thing to do, outrage or no. [] In other words, sometimes the principle is the most important thing. That's exactly why I won't buy copy-protected software -- principle. If the vendor is telling me WE DON'T TRUST YOU, then I don't want to do business with them. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Le 08/08/03 09:41, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: At 02:35 PM 8/8/03 +0200, d. collins wrote: And what about installing it and using on a laptop with no internet connection? Is that easily done? Does that mean this is okay with you? Not even a whisper of protest? Everybody else thinks this is fine, too? It's not with me. I just sent this email to the Finale order desk. Hello, I made a 2004 pre-order yesterday on the basis of the information on Makemusic's website. It turns out that the website was misleading when it said there was no copy protection. Challenge-response *is* copy protection as understood by the user community, and only by a Clintonian turn of phrase about what is is is it anything else. I hope there will be people standing up against all this whining! From what I have seen, there is no way to compare that scheme with that of Finale 98. You buy your software, then register it. Software companies HAVE to find ways to prevent illegal copies of their softwares and god knows how many there are. We choose to take the legal way because it is fair, and because we want MakeMusic to continue their research to make Finale a better software. I see Dennis's post as HUGELY OVERREACTING. I also see some hypothetical problems if Coda stops to support 2004 but our plug-ins developpers have always provided solutions to things Finale cannot do and am confident that if EVER it comes to that we'll find a way through. Wasn't it clear that you have to register ONCE and then the computer remembers that code even if it is reformatted. At least it's the way I understand it. If you ever have to work temporarily on someone else's computer, you CAN do it with all the features enabled for a whole month. Pirat copies of software is a HUGE problem and the solution here is nothing to disturb me in the way I normally work. Éric Dussault ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 12:50 AM 8/8/03 +0200, Jari Williamsson wrote: I've now put a Finale 2004 review with some tips on the tips site. I'll correct all the typos tomorrow... http://www.finaletips.nu/ Here I find: Finale 2004 has copy protection. You can read how it works on MakeMusic!'s own site. I go there and read: There is no copy protection, no key disks, no inconvenience. Which is true? If there really is copy protection, I intend to cancel my order. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Great review. Thanks! Ray Horton - Original Message - From: Jari Williamsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 6:50 PM Subject: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review Hello! I've now put a Finale 2004 review with some tips on the tips site. I'll correct all the typos tomorrow... http://www.finaletips.nu/ Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Only if they're answering the phones at CodaMusic (or Net4Music or MakeMusic) that day. d. collins wrote: Thanks to David for explaining the system. Jari Williamsson: The challenge/response system is seamless if you do the registration over the internet. In that case, there's no extra user involvement required. And what about installing it and using on a laptop with no internet connection? Is that easily done? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 10:55 AM 8/8/03 -0500, Richard Huggins wrote: I think Coda/MM has the right to employ some method of copy protection. If technically they goofed by using the words no copy protection, that's a gaffe they may already regret. Perhaps the words smart copy protection would have been better (and I'm NOT saying its opponents would have agreed it is smart, I'm just playing the role of marketer). 'Tain't smart. But okay, let me restate something that I think was lost in my thunderstorm of words. :O This was a paragraph in my posted email to Makemusic: There is one acceptable action, and that is to put a universal unlock key in escrow with a third party that will be released when Makemusic can or will no longer provide full support for Finale 2004 (that condition to be determined by an objective third party), coupled with full disclosure on the website of the program behavior, the owner of the universal unlock key, and the future support schedule. I have a real-world example. I bought WaveZip. It was challenge-response. It was marketed with that information, but it was several years ago when such authorizations were fairly new and I didn't pay attention to what the words meant. When I upgraded my hard drive, suddenly the program didn't function. I thought it odd that my legitimate registration wasn't accepted, and contacted the Gadget Labs. They explained it and gave a new code. I stopped using WaveZip encoding immediately (the decoder didn't need a code). Not long afterward, Gadget Labs faltered and went down. And what had they done? One of their final acts was to post and widely distribute the universal unlock key to WaveZip (and perhaps other programs; I only had WaveZip) so that authorization was no longer needed. This action depended on Gadget Labs' essential integrity. I think Makemusic damaged that integrity by their dissembling description of 'no copy protection' on the website. That means I don't trust them to do what Gadget Labs did. But they could restore that confidence by following these simple steps: 0. Publish the information truthfully on the website and on all ordering materials. 1. Create a universal unlock (skeleton) key. They probably already have one. 2. Escrow that key to a third party contracted to Makemusic only for that purpose. 3. Create and publish a support schedule for version obsolescence. 4. Authorize the key to be published and widely distributed to purchasers when that version is no longer supported. 5. Enable the third party to publish the key when Makemusic violates the support schedule or shows other indications, **with the third party as sole arbiter**, that the product is endangered (through Makemusic tech, support, or economic failures) or for the failure of Makemusic to provide authorizations in a timely manner. 6. Require the serial number to purchase upgrades, as is done now. That's not hard, but you know what? It means Makemusic actually has to *trust* somebody. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
I hope Finale's system will be a user-specific challenge/response and not a computer/specific system. I see, like measuring nose and ears? Or, worse yet, I certainly hope it isn't like Sibelius's system No, it isn't. I think you can actually install it three times and all will print and save just fine. You are apparently allowed to use two working installations. Installing it on a machine will enable it for all users. And only a much longer time will tell whether in 4 years Make Music ... decides to no longer support Finale2004 in order to force people to upgrade, and will no longer provide response codes for Finale2004. I think that would be illegal even in the States. It would certainly be illegal in Germany, so the German distributor would be in big trouble. Folks, you don't seriously believe Coda is that user-hostile? The only problem would be when they cease to exist. But even then, you must be aware that there are some very nice people behind this. MakeMusic employees are Finale users, just like you and me. I'm sure these people will make Finale survive, including older versions. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Tobias Giesen writes: I'm sure these people will make Finale survive, including older versions. Yes, a thing that seem to support this is the fact that you can still download patches for very old Finale versions, such as Finale 2.2. Many companies only provides download of fixes for the last 2 versions or something. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 04:10 PM 8/8/03 +0200, d. collins wrote: But I'm only at the stage where I'm trying to understand what's going on. So I'm also very wary, and would like to know how troublesome this one will be. Since Makemusic chose to dissemble on their website, I don't trust them now. Period. Anything short of lifting this protection scheme, whatever it is (especially if it's the system-damaging PACE software), doesn't cut it. They've already been marginally, um, 'honest'. Their credibility is wiped. And troublesomeness, whatever it is, doesn't even address the ethical issue of Finale issuing victimware. The Other Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Take it easy. Why should we be disappointed or even furious? Don't forget that estimated 70% of the use of Finale is illegal. It is copied on music schools etc. So far Finale did survive with their unprotected policy. But it is wise to protect the software. Forcing illegal customers to pay. Finale is still a cheap program compared to Sibelius. And all the new features are very promising and deserves our loyal support. Davo ___ Davo van Peursen (Sr. Music Editor at MuziekGroep Nederland) Paulus Potterstraat 14 1071 CZ Amsterdam The Netherlands phone: +31(0)20 3058922 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] site: http://www.muziekgroep.nl ___ -- From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Sent: Friday, August 8, 2003 15:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review At 02:35 PM 8/8/03 +0200, d. collins wrote: And what about installing it and using on a laptop with no internet connection? Is that easily done? Does that mean this is okay with you? Not even a whisper of protest? Everybody else thinks this is fine, too? It's not with me. I just sent this email to the Finale order desk. Hello, I made a 2004 pre-order yesterday on the basis of the information on Makemusic's website. It turns out that the website was misleading when it said there was no copy protection. Challenge-response *is* copy protection as understood by the user community, and only by a Clintonian turn of phrase about what is is is it anything else. Protected products are unacceptable. I have been a loyal customer since version 2.2 ([serial #]). That's ten years of loyalty, except when you did the key disk protection in Finale 98, which I also did not buy. Copy protection immediately suggests that Makemusic is in trouble, and I'm not about to hitch my wagon to a failing company. I am very disappointed not only with your Makemusic's actions, but also its attempts to cover them up by hiding how a Finale 2004 purchaser will be forever tied to the fortunes of Makemusic. You didn't even describe the technology, so we can't even know if it contains the PACE virus. That is unacceptable in any form, and I am furious with this sort of spite you show against your loyal and honest customers. Please credit the amount below immediately, or, if it hasn't been charged yet, cancel the order and confirm the cancellation. And then forward this to your decision makers, and let me know about their plans to drop this behavior. There is one acceptable action, and that is to put a universal unlock key in escrow with a third party that will be released when Makemusic can or will no longer provide full support for Finale 2004 (that condition to be determined by an objective third party), coupled with full disclosure on the website of the program behavior, the owner of the universal unlock key, and the future support schedule. My radio show is tomorrow -- one of the best known shows among composers -- and I certainly don't want to miss the opportunity to talk about what Makemusic has done to their loyal composer community. The order number was [order #]. The order total to credit is [amount]. Dennis Kalvos Damian's New Music Bazaar ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 10:38 AM 8/8/2003 -0400, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Within days, if not hours, of the new version being out, there will be cracks available. Don't be so sure. There were multiple cracks for every version of software I produced. I had a very primitive protection system that was easy to crack. I switched to a commercial packaging system that provides robust encryption and I don't see any cracks out there after 120 days. I suppose if somebody from the NSA really badly wanted to tie up enormous amounts of computer power figuring out how to crack the protection wrapper, they could be successful. But as a practical matter, it just isn't worth it, even for a hacker. A vital part of the cracking process is to reverse compile the program. The robust packaging schemes deliver the program code strongly encrypted so that you cannot decompile the program until you have already cracked the encryption. And of course, if you have cracked the code, you don't need to decompile. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
This action depended on Gadget Labs' essential integrity. I think Makemusic damaged that integrity by their dissembling description of 'no copy protection' on the website. That means I don't trust them to do what Gadget Labs did. Just because the *marketing* guys found euphemisms for software activation? I have had personal (albeit mostly via email) contact with many Coda employees, and I am deeply convinced that if there is one company that you can trust, it's them. Many Coda employees, including decision-makers and chief software developers are Finale users themselves. This product is very important to them. Unless all the key figures die at the same time, there should be no situation that will make Finale 2004 unusable for the next 2 decades or so. And there will of course be cracks, too ... Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 12:50 PM 8/8/03 +0200, I wrote: I know many people are against such things but they are starting to be a fact of the new decade. Dennis: Not yet in my experience. I'll do without. ... I stopped at Win98SE for the same reason -- no Big Brother in my pockets. See, you're still in last decade. Your choice. Personally, I cannot afford to work with obsolete tools. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Dennis: I'm not a tech junkie, and my tools are not obsolete. Forgive me, but Windows 98 IS obsolete. It's a piece of you-know-what. Admittedly, it's not your fault that it took Microsoft until Windows XP to get it right. ... if you can show me one thing that I need to do on XP that I can't do on 98SE, go ahead. I can leave the PC running for weeks without rebooting. It NEVER crashes. It can have transparent windows. And, quite importantly, it looks nice. I have come to feel quite unconfortable with the old, old Windows look of the last decade. It can make good use of my dual-processor machine with 1 GB RAM. I need that power to compile TGTools and compress video in the background ;=) ... Windows XP lets me have dozens (sic!) of application windows open without the slightest delay switching between them. And of course, without ever crashing (I said that). etc. etc. etc. I just couldn't do what I do with Windows 98SE. It would be impossible. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 02:35 PM 8/8/03 +0200, d. collins wrote: And what about installing it and using on a laptop with no internet connection? Is that easily done? Does that mean this is okay with you? Not even a whisper of protest? Everybody else thinks this is fine, too? It's not with me. I just sent this email to the Finale order desk. Hello, I made a 2004 pre-order yesterday on the basis of the information on Makemusic's website. It turns out that the website was misleading when it said there was no copy protection. Challenge-response *is* copy protection as understood by the user community, and only by a Clintonian turn of phrase about what is is is it anything else. Protected products are unacceptable. I have been a loyal customer since version 2.2 ([serial #]). That's ten years of loyalty, except when you did the key disk protection in Finale 98, which I also did not buy. Copy protection immediately suggests that Makemusic is in trouble, and I'm not about to hitch my wagon to a failing company. I am very disappointed not only with your Makemusic's actions, but also its attempts to cover them up by hiding how a Finale 2004 purchaser will be forever tied to the fortunes of Makemusic. You didn't even describe the technology, so we can't even know if it contains the PACE virus. That is unacceptable in any form, and I am furious with this sort of spite you show against your loyal and honest customers. Please credit the amount below immediately, or, if it hasn't been charged yet, cancel the order and confirm the cancellation. And then forward this to your decision makers, and let me know about their plans to drop this behavior. There is one acceptable action, and that is to put a universal unlock key in escrow with a third party that will be released when Makemusic can or will no longer provide full support for Finale 2004 (that condition to be determined by an objective third party), coupled with full disclosure on the website of the program behavior, the owner of the universal unlock key, and the future support schedule. My radio show is tomorrow -- one of the best known shows among composers -- and I certainly don't want to miss the opportunity to talk about what Makemusic has done to their loyal composer community. The order number was [order #]. The order total to credit is [amount]. Dennis Kalvos Damian's New Music Bazaar ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
- Original Message - From: Tobias Giesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review Unless all the key figures die at the same time, there should be no situation that will make Finale 2004 unusable for the next 2 decades or so. I've got an image of a variant of the scene in Godfather III where all the Finale developers are in a meeting room and are gunned down by helicopter by a rival notation company. Here's hoping that doesn't happen! C. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Hi, well there is no copy protection in that the CD can be copied freely and installed freely but the installed product needs to be activated thru registration (challenge/response). I think you can install it on three computers before having to talk to somebody at MakeMusic and explain what happened. I think you have thirty days to permanently activate your product. They don't use the word activation, they call it registration. I have not investigated ways around this procedure. I know many people are against such things but they are starting to be a fact of the new decade. For example, out of 20 audio/video editing software products, I liked only one - the one with product activation. But I wanted the best, so I bought it. Same would be true for Finale upgrades, if I had to pay for'em. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
David: I hope Finale's system will be a user-specific challenge/response and not a computer/specific system. I see, like measuring nose and ears? Or, worse yet, I certainly hope it isn't like Sibelius's system No, it isn't. I think you can actually install it three times and all will print and save just fine. You are apparently allowed to use two working installations. Installing it on a machine will enable it for all users. And only a much longer time will tell whether in 4 years Make Music ... decides to no longer support Finale2004 in order to force people to upgrade, and will no longer provide response codes for Finale2004. I think that would be illegal even in the States. It would certainly be illegal in Germany, so the German distributor would be in big trouble. Folks, you don't seriously believe Coda is that user-hostile? The only problem would be when they cease to exist. But even then, you must be aware that there are some very nice people behind this. MakeMusic employees are Finale users, just like you and me. I'm sure these people will make Finale survive, including older versions. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
But Dennis, you already gave us the solution long time ago. You buy the upgrade, keep the box unopened and use a cracked version like somebody else. Now don´t tell me that is illegal because it is not. All pro-audio users know the problem with Digidesign and his floppy-disk authorizations. And errr... I would campaign, but I already ordered the upgrade! Saludos, Javier P.S. The feature of mixed fonts in expressions worth the 139.95 bucks... I will actively campaign against this product and company until they change it. They got a terrible response to Finale 98, which I suppose is why their slimy description on the website avoids pointing out the details. I'll stick with F2K3 until they change their minds, or something else handles scoring. That Hungarian vaporware is beginning to look attactive already. Coda MakeVictims can go down in flames. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
At 03:54 PM 8/8/03 +0200, Davo van Peursen wrote: Take it easy. Why should we be disappointed or even furious? Don't forget that estimated 70% of the use of Finale is illegal. It is copied on music schools etc. So far Finale did survive with their unprotected policy. But it is wise to protect the software. Forcing illegal customers to pay. Finale is still a cheap program compared to Sibelius. And all the new features are very promising and deserves our loyal support. Dit is gek. Within days, if not hours, of the new version being out, there will be cracks available. The only people penalized are legal users, who have to put up with being victims, or at best buy the program and download the cracked version. And Finale may be 'cheap' compared with some other programs, but it is mostly a financial loss for me. As a composer, I don't get academic pricing, and I've bought every upgrade (except Finale 98). Someone else said that comparable programs in other areas have protection. Here are just some of what I have purchased *without* copy protection, but just registration: Pagemaker 7, Sonar 2, Cool Edit Pro 2, Paint Shop Pro 8, Microsoft Office 97, Video Factory 2, Movie Factory 2, and dozens of smaller programs such asWS_FTP Pro, LiveSynth Pro, Font Creator, Babylon Translator, McAfee Virus Scan, Opera, IBM Home Page Reader, Systran, Partition Magic, Adobe Type Mananger, two versions of American Heritage Dictionary, and a bunch of VST/DX plugins. Not a single one of my -- just counting them now -- 56 pieces of currently active commercial (i.e., paid for) software on my desktop is victimware. At 04:04 PM 8/8/03 +0200, Tobias Giesen wrote: See, you're still in last decade. Your choice. Personally, I cannot afford to work with obsolete tools. I'm not a tech junkie, and my tools are not obsolete. I will moving most of my day-to-day work to Linux if Microsoft doesn't modify their hands-in-pants registration. I've still got another year of Win98SE support, and if you can show me one thing that I need to do on XP that I can't do on 98SE, go ahead. Oh yeah ... Windows Media Encoder 9. Gosh, now there's a reason to let MS play with me! At 10:06 AM 8/8/03 -0400, ÉQ==ric Dussault wrote: I hope there will be people standing up against all this whining! From what I have seen, there is no way to compare that scheme with that of Finale 98. You buy your software, then register it. Software companies HAVE to find ways to prevent illegal copies of their softwares and god knows how many there are. We choose to take the legal way because it is fair, and because we want MakeMusic to continue their research to make Finale a better software. I see Dennis's post as HUGELY OVERREACTING. I also see some hypothetical problems if Coda stops to support 2004 but our plug-ins developpers have always provided solutions to things Finale cannot do and am confident that if EVER it comes to that we'll find a way through. Wasn't it clear that you have to register ONCE and then the computer remembers that code even if it is reformatted. At least it's the way I understand it. If you ever have to work temporarily on someone else's computer, you CAN do it with all the features enabled for a whole month. Pirat copies of software is a HUGE problem and the solution here is nothing to disturb me in the way I normally work. I am not hugely overreacting. If you want overreaction, talk to me off-list. :) First of all, cracks will be there ASAP. The only penalty is to legal users. That point was already made, and you helped make it above when suddenly you had to fall back on a user community for future support because you *know* Makemusic is going to sandbag you and you're already mentally getting ready for it. And maybe *you* have to register once. But how do you suppose they validate these registrations? They're linked to something, and at some point that software is going to blow up and you'll be stuck. As for me, I am in a constant state of upgrade, I carry my programs around on pull-out drives and put them in whatever computer I'm working with, with multiple boot versions. How many times do you think Makemusic will allow me to re-authorize every week? Right. And -- here's the most important part that makes me mistrust them for future behavior and honesty: Makemusic TRIED TO DISGUISE WHAT THEY WERE DOING. You *know* there's a problem when they play with words, saying there's no copy protection when even Jari said right off that there was copy protection. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Hi fellow listers, I wonder if this is the call/response system that Sibelius uses and that Microsoft now employs, where the installation generates a huge alpha-numeric code that you have to report to MakeMusic and they return you an answering code. It sounds to me *exactly* like the Sibelius method, with the exception that Coda give us 30 days to register, whereas you only get (I think) 5 days with Sibelius. I'd love to know whether you only get your 30 days once, or if you have to, say, reinstall after having registered, do you get another 30 days after reinstalling to re-activate, or do you have to re-activate straight away? I'm guessing that you'd have to re-activate straight away, else you could simply reinstall Finale every 30 days and never actually have to activate it, which wouldn't be too onerous for people who want to steal it. I don't know how Sibelius behaves in this regard. I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an uproar at the re-introduction of copy protection to Finale. Okay, so it doesn't sound as bad as the CD dongle from that earlier version (I forget which, was it Fin98?), but this is *precisely* the kind of thing we've always touted as one of the main advantages over Sibelius, and now that advantage is gone. (assuming, of course, that MakeMusic remains in business and is willing to support Fin2004 forever). Exactly! What happens if they decide to stop supporting Finale 2004, but I don't want to buy e.g. Finale 2008 or whatever? What happens if they go out of business next year? I want a few more reassurances about how this system works before I put down any cash. Best, -WR Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Most of the Microsoft employees also use Windows, yet they are orphaning operating systems on a regularly scheduled basis, so I don't think that your argument holds here -- I'm willing to bet that all the CodaMusic employees who use Finale always use the most recent version and so have no reason to keep 2004 working for the next 2 decades. I remain convinced that Finale itself will be working for the next 2 decades, but I think that people who decide to stick with 2004 may well face a time when installation codes simply won't be handed out (just as Microsoft will eventually do for WinXP installations, according to their own wacky timetable), in part because they won't want to be bothered keeping their tech support up to date on a 20 year old (or 5 year old or 10 year old or whatever age they decide is too old) version and also in part in an effort to force people to upgrade more frequently. I can see a day when some release notice will be worded Upgrade to Finale 2009 and get our latest think entry where all you have to do is think the music and it will appear in perfect notation. By the way, as of the release date of August 27, 2008, installation codes for Finale2004 will no longer be available, nor will technical support or something to that effect. And of course they aren't going to admit to such a plan yet, not until we've all succumbed to the new system and are hooked. And, yes, I have ordered my 2004 upgrade knowing all this potential full-well, since I have no alternative if I want to use the seemingly wonderful new improvements. I am a bit disheartened to find out that the touted new cross-barline beaming that they display so proudly is nothing other than a lite version of Robert Patterson's plug-in (I am thrilled that they have licensed it from you, Robert and disappointed that they are too cheap to license the full version of the plug-in), so in fact it really isn't any improvement over current capabilities. I wonder how many other improvements will simply turn out to be plug-ins that people outside the company came up with? Oh, well, as they say in show business, That's progress! Tobias Giesen wrote: This action depended on Gadget Labs' essential integrity. I think Makemusic damaged that integrity by their dissembling description of 'no copy protection' on the website. That means I don't trust them to do what Gadget Labs did. Just because the *marketing* guys found euphemisms for software activation? I have had personal (albeit mostly via email) contact with many Coda employees, and I am deeply convinced that if there is one company that you can trust, it's them. Many Coda employees, including decision-makers and chief software developers are Finale users themselves. This product is very important to them. Unless all the key figures die at the same time, there should be no situation that will make Finale 2004 unusable for the next 2 decades or so. And there will of course be cracks, too ... Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
I hope Finale's system will be a user-specific challenge/response and not a computer/specific system. I see, like measuring nose and ears? Or, worse yet, I certainly hope it isn't like Sibelius's system No, it isn't. I think you can actually install it three times and all will print and save just fine. You are apparently allowed to use two working installations. Installing it on a machine will enable it for all users. And only a much longer time will tell whether in 4 years Make Music ... decides to no longer support Finale2004 in order to force people to upgrade, and will no longer provide response codes for Finale2004. I think that would be illegal even in the States. It would certainly be illegal in Germany, so the German distributor would be in big trouble. Folks, you don't seriously believe Coda is that user-hostile? The only problem would be when they cease to exist. But even then, you must be aware that there are some very nice people behind this. MakeMusic employees are Finale users, just like you and me. I'm sure these people will make Finale survive, including older versions. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
On 08.08.2003 18:59 Uhr, Tobias Giesen wrote I have had personal (albeit mostly via email) contact with many Coda employees, and I am deeply convinced that if there is one company that you can trust, it's them. Many Coda employees, including decision-makers and chief software developers are Finale users themselves. This product is very important to them. Unless all the key figures die at the same time, there should be no situation that will make Finale 2004 unusable for the next 2 decades or so. Come on Tobias, surely you are not assuming that MakeMusic is free from any dangers of bankruptcy, corruption, commercial interests?... never ever to go bust? Look at what happened to Opcode... Software companies go bust every day, small ones, big ones. Not so long ago Emagic was sold to Apple, and closed their Windows department. Who is going to gurantee me that Finale is not one day going to be sold to Sibelius, who then will simply close the subject and offer me a great deal to switch to their own software, with a footnote saying all Finale support will stop in 4 weeks time? It's only the amount of money that counts. It makes no difference in todays world whether a product is important to their developers, decision-makers or users, if things go wrong badly MakeMusic could be bankrupt or sold tomorrow. Just like any other software company. Seriously, in todays fast moving market there simply is no guarantee that 12 months from now there is any company that supports Finale. There simply isn't. I think it is a fair judgement to make that if this happens there may indeed be no future value to all the work you do from now on in Fin04. That's the main problem with the copy protection scheme as it has been introduced. On the other hand I have come to accept this kind of copy protection, although I see absolutely no value in it, neither for MakeMusic nor for the customer. It is their decision, not mine. But I fully understand people like Dennis being more than upset about it. Many software companies have gone similar routes. I personally find a copy protection system where the activation is user specific and not machine specific much better. Bias Peak has changed to that system after users complained about the machine specific system. But I also realize that this system provides much less copy protection. I very much doubt that this will make any difference to Finale sales, though. But again, if Coda decides to do this kind of thing, that's up to them. But it is not up to us to bash on people who don't like it, since it really does bear a risk. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Hi, well there is no copy protection in that the CD can be copied freely and installed freely but the installed product needs to be activated thru registration (challenge/response). I think you can install it on three computers before having to talk to somebody at MakeMusic and explain what happened. I think you have thirty days to permanently activate your product. They don't use the word activation, they call it registration. I have not investigated ways around this procedure. I know many people are against such things but they are starting to be a fact of the new decade. For example, out of 20 audio/video editing software products, I liked only one - the one with product activation. But I wanted the best, so I bought it. Same would be true for Finale upgrades, if I had to pay for'em. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
A challenge/response system is where the program generates a code which you have to respond to with a different code. To receive your response code, you have to call the publisher (makemusic in this case) with your challenge code and they will give you the correct (hopefully) response code which will keep the program working on your machine. Similar to what Microsoft is currently using with WinXP and the newer versions of Office. I hope Finale's is different from Microsoft's in that with Microsoft, once you have made more than a certain number of alterations to your computer (different CPU, added memory, changed video card or sound card, change hard drive, who knows what-all else) you need to RE-register your software with Microsoft because your original response code will no longer work. I hope Finale's system will be a user-specific challenge/response and not a computer/specific system. Or, worse yet, I certainly hope it isn't like Sibelius's system, where there is a challenge/response system AND a single printing/saving code that the program generates once the challenge/response is completed. The printing/saving code can be transferred from one computer to another (I hope this isn't what Finale means when they say we can install the program on TWO computers) via floppy disk (such a valuable code to be entrusted to such a cheap piece of crap device). Of course, if the floppy get damaged or loses its magnetic signal while you are between computers, you can't save or print from EITHER machine because it completely removes the enabling code from the first machine to put it in the second machine. Only time will tell exactly what this all means. And only a much longer time will tell whether in 4 years Make Music (I indavertently began to type Microsoft -- freudian slip?) decides to no longer support Finale2004 in order to force people to upgrade, and will no longer provide response codes for Finale2004. d. collins wrote: Jari Williamsson écrit: It works exactly as MakeMusic! explains it on their site. I would still say a challenge/response system is copy protection, although there's no hardware copy protection. Pardon my ignorance, but what is a challenge/response system? Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Tobias Giesen wrote: [snip] The only problem would be when they cease to exist. But even then, you must be aware that there are some very nice people behind this. MakeMusic employees are Finale users, just like you and me. I'm sure these people will make Finale survive, including older versions. They don't own the code, though, the corporation owns it. And the parent corporation (is it Wenger or was that just a rumor from bygone years) owns it ultimately, as a corporate asset. So if for any reason they decide to stop producing Finale, it will not be legal for former employees (or current employees) to continue to make Finale survive, unless they can get a legal license. And if the current owners of the code decide they want to take it off the market (for whatever reason) or they are forced to take it off the market through bankruptcy proceedings, what happened to Encore could happen to Finale, only the installation codes will very likely get lost in the shuffle and not only won't there be any future upgrades for many years, reinstalling Finale 2004 on new machines might not be possible. Only time will tell (and I certainly hope that I'm wrong!) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Folks --
This looked like it might be an excellent upgrade. For some it may
be. I personally cannot make any software purchase which ties my
future use of the product to someone else's continued benevolence and
the continuing existence of their servers.
I purchased the Finale 2004 update on 8/8/03. I have since cancelled my order.
I am currently an extremely vexed and irate former customer of
Coda/nom du jour. Smooth words from marketing droids will not soothe
my anger. Only concrete action that removes all invasive copy
protection will suffice. I will not purchase a product that requires
me (or my computer) to contact another party to successfully install
it; to do so submits to an unacceptable reliance on the continued
existence and charity of another. This is not an acceptable basis for
a purchase contract.
Best wishes to all,
-=-Dennis
FWIW here is a copy of the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (and
[EMAIL PROTECTED]) cancelling my order.
Original message to finalesales and macsupport:
--
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Dennis W. Manasco [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Cancellation of Order Number {number deleted}
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello --
On 8/8/03 I placed a pre-order for Finale 2004. I have since
discovered, despite omissions and prevarications on the Finale
website, that Finale 2004 uses a copy-protection scheme that requires
my computer to be uniquely identified to Coda/MakeMusic servers in
order to successfully install the program.
This is unacceptable. This means that whenever I require a new
hard-disk or purchase a new computer I am at the mercy of the
existence and integrity of Coda/MakeMusic's Copy Protection Servers
to successfully install my legally purchased product. I cannot and
will not submit to this potential infringement of my right to
continue to use, and derive benefit from, a product which I have
legitimately purchased and thus should rightfully expect to have
access to, and complete use of, in perpetuity.
I thought that the debacle of Finale 98 would have been sufficient to
alert you that many of your customers resent being treated as a
priori criminals. This incarnation of copy-protection is even worse:
Not only do you brand your legitimate users potential criminals, but
you tie their businesses and livelihoods to the continued existence
of your Copy Protection Servers. If you are using one of the
pervasive systemic copy-protection systems (such as PACE) you may
even be irrevocably invading and damaging the integrity of their
computer's operating system and data. These are not the actions of a
benign company.
I will attempt to continue with my current version of your software,
but it is essentially incompatible with my primary operating system
(Macintosh OS X). I will be actively looking for other Macintosh
solutions and exploring Unix Open Source alternatives. I will be
advising friends and associates to search for other solutions as well.
PLEASE CANCEL MY ORDER NUMBER {number deleted} OF 8/8/03.
Thank you,
Dennis W. Manasco
Dennis W. Manasco, Inc.
{address deleted}
--
{end of original message}
___
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Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Hey, hey, Richard, calm down: you are being excessive hostile to Dennis´s supposedly excessive hostile reaction... FYI there is an audio company that dropped all copy protection an all its products and actually have seen an increase in sales and revenues. Javier Ruiz P.S. 38 degrees today... I think your reaction is excessively hostile, ill-conceived, somewhat immature and only to your professional disadvantage. -Richard ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Hi, well there is no copy protection in that the CD can be copied freely and installed freely but the installed product needs to be activated thru registration (challenge/response). I think you can install it on three computers before having to talk to somebody at MakeMusic and explain what happened. I think you have thirty days to permanently activate your product. They don't use the word activation, they call it registration. I have not investigated ways around this procedure. I know many people are against such things but they are starting to be a fact of the new decade. For example, out of 20 audio/video editing software products, I liked only one - the one with product activation. But I wanted the best, so I bought it. Same would be true for Finale upgrades, if I had to pay for'em. Cheers, Tobias ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Forcing legal customers to jump through hoops won't stop the cracked versions that will appear and be copied and distributed just like before. Estimated total usage MAY be 70% pirated versions(how do they know, unless they know who is using the pirated software, and in that case why don't they just arrest the bastards?) but MY total usage is 100% legal, registered and paid for. I resent having to jump through hoops just because the software publishers are too cheap to go after the pirates. And before anybody says there's just too many pirates for any company to go about finding them all, explain how making my life harder will assist in reducing piracy? Davo van Peursen wrote: Take it easy. Why should we be disappointed or even furious? Don't forget that estimated 70% of the use of Finale is illegal. It is copied on music schools etc. So far Finale did survive with their unprotected policy. But it is wise to protect the software. Forcing illegal customers to pay. Finale is still a cheap program compared to Sibelius. And all the new features are very promising and deserves our loyal support. Davo ___ Davo van Peursen (Sr. Music Editor at MuziekGroep Nederland) Paulus Potterstraat 14 1071 CZ Amsterdam The Netherlands phone: +31(0)20 3058922 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] site: http://www.muziekgroep.nl ___ -- From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Sent: Friday, August 8, 2003 15:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review At 02:35 PM 8/8/03 +0200, d. collins wrote: And what about installing it and using on a laptop with no internet connection? Is that easily done? Does that mean this is okay with you? Not even a whisper of protest? Everybody else thinks this is fine, too? It's not with me. I just sent this email to the Finale order desk. Hello, I made a 2004 pre-order yesterday on the basis of the information on Makemusic's website. It turns out that the website was misleading when it said there was no copy protection. Challenge-response *is* copy protection as understood by the user community, and only by a Clintonian turn of phrase about what is is is it anything else. Protected products are unacceptable. I have been a loyal customer since version 2.2 ([serial #]). That's ten years of loyalty, except when you did the key disk protection in Finale 98, which I also did not buy. Copy protection immediately suggests that Makemusic is in trouble, and I'm not about to hitch my wagon to a failing company. I am very disappointed not only with your Makemusic's actions, but also its attempts to cover them up by hiding how a Finale 2004 purchaser will be forever tied to the fortunes of Makemusic. You didn't even describe the technology, so we can't even know if it contains the PACE virus. That is unacceptable in any form, and I am furious with this sort of spite you show against your loyal and honest customers. Please credit the amount below immediately, or, if it hasn't been charged yet, cancel the order and confirm the cancellation. And then forward this to your decision makers, and let me know about their plans to drop this behavior. There is one acceptable action, and that is to put a universal unlock key in escrow with a third party that will be released when Makemusic can or will no longer provide full support for Finale 2004 (that condition to be determined by an objective third party), coupled with full disclosure on the website of the program behavior, the owner of the universal unlock key, and the future support schedule. My radio show is tomorrow -- one of the best known shows among composers -- and I certainly don't want to miss the opportunity to talk about what Makemusic has done to their loyal composer community. The order number was [order #]. The order total to credit is [amount]. Dennis Kalvos Damian's New Music Bazaar ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale . -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
As a software author myself, one who has been victimized by piracy and cracks (just like everyone else), I must disagree with the sentiments you expressed. I find the new Finale policy quite reasonable. Anybody who intended to live honestly by the license should have little difficulty with this MakeMusic is entitled to make money from their efforts. I hope they make loads of money, because that means it is more likely that they will continue to produce new releases that make all of us more productive. And if we are more productive, we make more money. All the best, Craig At 08:02 AM 8/8/2003 -0400, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 12:50 PM 8/8/03 +0200, Tobias Giesen wrote: I know many people are against such things but they are starting to be a fact of the new decade. Not yet in my experience. I'll do without. I know Mac uses have dealt with this, but it is *not* a fact of life on PCs. I got a private message last night; here's the text and here's how I responded. === There is no copy protection per se. That is, you can freely copy it anywhere. But if you want it to run (other than as a demo) you have to go thru an online registration process. You are allowed two automatically. After that you have to negotiate. If Coda ever ceases to support the online registration process, you can't ever install it on a new computer. Coda's website is definitely coy on this point. Coy? Scummy, I'd say. No copy protection means no copy protection, not knowing what is is-style equivocation. I'm calling first thing tomorrow to cancel, writing Makemusic about it, and gonna whallop them on my KD website. I skipped Finale 98 for this sort of behavior, and I'll sit out again if I have to. There's no challenge-response software, no copy protected software, no dongles, and no other methods of protection on my machine that will at some point prevent me from using software that I've purchased. I'm fierce about this whole issue. I stopped at Win98SE for the same reason -- no Big Brother in my pockets. It's a forced-upgrade method of sales. Who's to know that it hasn't timed out as software after a certain period? I *despise* this. Gr. === I will actively campaign against this product and company until they change it. They got a terrible response to Finale 98, which I suppose is why their slimy description on the website avoids pointing out the details. I'll stick with F2K3 until they change their minds, or something else handles scoring. That Hungarian vaporware is beginning to look attactive already. Coda MakeVictims can go down in flames. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Jari, Thanks a million for your review of Finale 2004. Although I haven't used it, I think praise is warranted. It seems to me that if they'd only done half of the improvements and new features they've done, it still would be worth buying. --Richard From: Jari Williamsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've now put a Finale 2004 review with some tips on the tips site. I'll correct all the typos tomorrow... http://www.finaletips.nu/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
This part makes sense. Sort of like having a will in the files of an attorney rather than in a desk in a room in a house which burns down along with the only people who knew about it and what it said (to use an awful analogy). In the case of a bankruptcy, for example, there is a chance (though rare in this age where bankruptcy almost has reached corporate-strategy level) that the website and all other assets would be quickly locked down by legal types. Richard From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is one acceptable action, and that is to put a universal unlock key in escrow with a third party that will be released when Makemusic can or will no longer provide full support for Finale 2004 (that condition to be determined by an objective third party), coupled with full disclosure on the website of the program behavior, the owner of the universal unlock key, and the future support schedule. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz writes: Here I find: Finale 2004 has copy protection. You can read how it works on MakeMusic!'s own site. I go there and read: There is no copy protection, no key disks, no inconvenience. Which is true? If there really is copy protection, I intend to cancel my order. It works exactly as MakeMusic! explains it on their site. I would still say a challenge/response system is copy protection, although there's no hardware copy protection. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
David H. Bailey writes: There has to be some sort of code you enter into the installation or else how could the program know whether or not to disable aspects of the program after 30 days if you haven't registered? The challenge/response system is seamless if you do the registration over the internet. In that case, there's no extra user involvement required. It also says we have permission to install the program on TWO different machines -- there must be some sort of installation code that becomes portable from the original installation. I get the impression a database at MakeMusic! keeps track of the number of installed computers for each serial no. Somewhere (I can't remember if it was the e-mail advertisement or I read this on the FinaleMusic website) I read that we would have unlimited re-installs but it didn't mention if we would need to contact MakeMusic each time we needed to re-install the program (assuming, of course, that MakeMusic remains in business and is willing to support Fin2004 forever). To get more installs than 2, you have to contact MakeMusic! to activate an extra install. Btw, it's a computer-specific challenge/response system (so it will survive a reformat and such things). I would _guess_ it's very similar to Microsoft's. My only concern is what's going to happen the day MakeMusic! decides that Finale 2004 is dead as a product and no longer provides response codes. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
Le 08/08/03 10:38, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: I am not hugely overreacting. If you want overreaction, talk to me off-list. :) :-) First of all, cracks will be there ASAP. The only penalty is to legal users. I still don't see how we are victimized or penalized. The way you personally change your computer is not the typical behavior of a normal computer user, and I am sure that if you explain it to someone at MakeMusic they will accommodate you. Most people won't have this kind of problem. That point was already made, and you helped make it above when suddenly you had to fall back on a user community for future support because you *know* Makemusic is going to sandbag you and you're already mentally getting ready for it. And maybe *you* have to register once. But how do you suppose they validate these registrations? They're linked to something, and at some point that software is going to blow up and you'll be stuck. I install, then register so they validate my software (fair enough) and then you think they stay connected to your computer? The way I understand it that's all after the registration and somehow your computer is coded so it will in the future recognize the software. Maybe I am a bit naïve or you do a bit of paranoia by going far beyond what is said. I am curious if Jari of Tobias have something more to say about that to shed some lights on us naives and paranoiacs. :-) ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale 2004 Review
From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does that mean this is okay with you? Yes, it's fine with me. Not even a whisper of protest? No, not a whisper of protest. Everybody else thinks this is fine, too? I can't speak for everyone else. I think your reaction is excessively hostile, ill-conceived, somewhat immature and only to your professional disadvantage. -Richard ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
