Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
On Friday 18 August 2006 00:42, Jon S. Berndt wrote: Interesting. I ran a test earlier today with the OV-10 sitting on the runway in JSBSim standalone. It's just sitting there. So, I wonder if there is a problem in the interaction with FlightGear, somehow? Does anyone else see this? Yes... the Lightning also suffers from this jitter when the parking brake is applied. It's not as bad as with previous versions of JSBSim (where it could rapidly escalate and flip the whole plane over) but it's there and a bit annoying. I haven't played that much with the gear constants - they seem about right when landing, so I'm hesitant to mess about with them; but it could be that some of the jitter could be reduced that way? Cheers, AJ - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
Yes... the Lightning also suffers from this jitter when the parking brake is applied. It's not as bad as with previous versions of JSBSim (where it could rapidly escalate and flip the whole plane over) but it's there and a bit annoying. I haven't played that much with the gear constants - they seem about right when landing, so I'm hesitant to mess about with them; but it could be that some of the jitter could be reduced that way? Cheers, AJ OK, I have tried this out and identified the problem. It's with the landing gear. Don't use it, and you're OK! ha. ;-) Seriously, it seems to be there only if/when you use the brakes, and further it seems to only be there at initialization. I've tried it from a rolling speed - braking and stopping, and the jitter seemed not as bad. I can reproduce it in the standalone version of JSBSim using a custom script. That way, it will be much easier for me to develop a fix (and I still can't run OpenGL apps pending resolution of my video card problem). I'll be at the AIAA Modeling and Simulation conference in Keystone CO next week. I believe that at least a couple of papers are being presented about landing gear modeling. I may pick up some ideas there. If not, I may have some time to do some debugging using my wife's notebook, if I get up early enough... Jon - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
* Mathias Fröhlich -- Thursday 17 August 2006 07:48: From my point of view this is a total misfeature. And from my point of view it is a misfeature to bolt the pilot's head on the fuselage, which is what it looks and feels like with the old static view -- on a helicopter more so than on a fixed wing. That's why this feature will remain active by default. BTW: if someone wants to test it on other aircraft, here's a first stab at a generalized version: http://members.aon.at/mfranz/flightgear/dynamic_view.nas [4.2 kB] Put it into $FG_ROOT/Nasal/ and start fgfs like so: $ fgfs --aircraft=OV10_USAFE --airport=KNUQ --prop:sim/view/dynamic=1 This needs to be enabled from the beginning, as it can't currently be turned on at runtime. (JSBSim is a bit problematic on ground due to excessive y acceleration. Which is what *I* call a misfeature. :-) We could use some more helicopters. What about you?! Any contribution around the corner? Don't mix up independent things Mechior ... It was too tempting. It's OK for non-developers to lurk on a development list, it's also OK for them to criticize developers, but demanding justification from those who do the work is a bit too much. Or was too much yesterday late in the evening. No, if you want to present flightgear in an environment where this stuff does not make sense at all and where people expect a somehow well done and working presentation, you don't want to additionally fiddle with that stuff. Then I take the apology back. You honestly think that's a valid reason? FlightGear should be perfectly preconfigured for retarded booth staff? And the other 100 users should fiddle instead? Now, this is funny. And a very innovative view, indeed. One would think that someone who presents FlightGear to the public should know about configuration options, but that's just me. But anyway can we have a maser switch to get rid of that once for ever in every aircraft? It's only in the bo105 and the seahawk. Yes, if there's demand for this to be available in more/all aircraft, then there will certainly be a common menu entry for all aircraft. m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
* Martin Spott -- Thursday 17 August 2006 12:33: I find it very irritating to have someone else moving my view direction in the simulator. You're right, this somehow resembles real live, Bingo. If we walk, or drive, or fly, or jump from branch to branch in a tree -- we don't experience ourselves as static in a jumping, drifting world. We experience the terrain as static. Our brain, eyes and equilibrium organs do a great job in stabilizing the surrounding world. The dynamic view in the bo stabilizes the terrain in very slow flight, just as our *automatic* view head movements would. This effect becomes less as speed increases. but there's a significant difference: In real live you have a feeling of the forces that correspond to the movement of your head, which lack in the simulator. Exactly. And because this sensation is missing, we need additional visual cue. In the bo's dynamic view this is achieved by the helicopter parts having the freedom to move indepent from terrain (obviously :-) and pilot. This gives a feeling of movements and acceleration -- much like your butt would tell you. You, well I at least, almost *feel* the G when the ground plate comes up in slow flight when I pull back. And much like in real life on my helicopter flights. I can concentrate on the *stable* helipad -- rolling doesn't move the helipad, and not my view, but just the helicopter frame. And in real life it's *very* painless to keep the interesting region in the view. Just move your head. It's automatic, you don't have to think about it. In FlightGear you have to do a distracting operation to get the region of interest in the view (moving the mouse), especially if you need your right hand on the stick and the left hand on the collective. (I'd say that 99.9% of fgfs users don't have panaroama screen or head-tracker.) The dynamic view makes keeping the interesting region in the view as automatic as in Real Life. Sure, it may move the panel out of view when you want to look, but who want's to read the ASI in a sharp turn?! And in the few cases when you want to, you can still use the mouse. Just like before. (BTW: I have bound the left flap button to instantly move to panel view, and I want to make the other flap button look in drift direction for sideways slipping.) Therefore I consider the 'managed-view' still an interesting feature, but inappropriate for the given case. I'm turning it off when sitting in the BO, That's OK. Doesn't come as a surprise that there are different views and preferences. That's why it is configurable, always was thought to be configurable, and will always be configurable. I'd be surprised, though, if the majoriy agreed with your preference. :-) m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
On Thursday 17 August 2006 00:51, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Matthias Boerner -- Thursday 17 August 2006 00:15: On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:30, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Matthias Boerner -- Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:27: Shouldn't the old style of view the default property and the new managed-view the one which is selectable? No. Ok, why? Because I like it and think it should be active by default. FlightGear aircraft are property of their creators -- they decide (as long as no sacred rules are violated). Everyone is free to modify his/her copy, to fork it, or even to create their own, better aircraft. We could use some more helicopters. What about you?! Any contribution around the corner? Yes, actually, I am working on a helicopter. I posted that already a while ago. Anyway... If there was a poll (which is not the case), then I would have to say: 5 people welcomed it. *Nobody* has complained about it so far. You didn't argue at all, just imply a sacred rule that doesn't exist. Mathias had the most ridiculous argument: the 100 rich guys with panorama or multi-screen setup, or head-trackers shouldn't have to turn it off. I'm very depressed and sad to cause this pain to that 0.0001% minority, and you can call me old-fashioned, but somehow I think that doing what I consider desirable for 99.% of users is right. m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
On Thursday 17 August 2006 08:35, Melchior FRANZ wrote: ---snip It was too tempting. It's OK for non-developers to lurk on a development list, it's also OK for them to criticize developers, but demanding justification from those who do the work is a bit too much. Or was too much yesterday late in the evening. Oh, if you mean me I am sorry that I made you losing your temper. I can remember myself that I asked you only two questions without any judgment or criticism. No, if you want to present flightgear in an environment where this stuff does not make sense at all and where people expect a somehow well done and working presentation, you don't want to additionally fiddle with that stuff. Then I take the apology back. You honestly think that's a valid reason? FlightGear should be perfectly preconfigured for retarded booth staff? And the other 100 users should fiddle instead? Now, this is funny. And a very innovative view, indeed. One would think that someone who presents FlightGear to the public should know about configuration options, but that's just me. Well, here is the point: retarded booth staff is not very nice. Did you ever organize a booth and helped? Probably not, otherwise you wouldn't have said that. For your information, I was at the Linux Tag in Wiesbaden and a member of the FlightGear booth staff. But I will stop this here. ---snip Matthias - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
Hi, And from my point of view it is a misfeature to bolt the pilot's head on the fuselage, which is what it looks and feels like with For my point of view it is an error to end up in a constantly rotating view. This is what I get if I restart the bo105 after a crash. Olaf - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
* Jon S. Berndt -- Thursday 17 August 2006 15:12: I've adjusted the landing gear values a bit. Can you explain what you mean by excessive Y acceleration? Is this while sittings till on the runway? Is it something that happens as you accelerate? Yes, on the runway and when accelerating. And excessive is relative. It's excessive for my purpose and compared with yasim. :-) But the fact that it's not there when the brakes are applied could also be because I multiply with a function of velocity, so it's zeroed there. I'll try to make the script more robust for jsbsim. m. Interesting. I ran a test earlier today with the OV-10 sitting on the runway in JSBSim standalone. It's just sitting there. So, I wonder if there is a problem in the interaction with FlightGear, somehow? Does anyone else see this? Did you say something about a script? Which version of FlightGear are you using? Can you tell me what command line you use to start FlightGear so I can try and duplicate the problem? I'll have to swap my silly video card... Jon - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:30, Melchior FRANZ wrote: Shouldn't the old style of view the default property and the new managed-view the one which is selectable? No. I would vote for the old stuff too! Also a generic, aircraft independent, disable switch for that unusual view would be great. What I have in mind here is what we had at the LinuxTag booth in Wiesbaden. We had multiple views where you don't want to have any automatic view management. I that case you want to manage the views just by moving your real head. For such a thing it would be really great to disable that without stepping through many aircraft and disable them one by one. Greetings Mathias - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:30, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Matthias Boerner -- Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:27: how can I turn off the property managed-view? See the ?-key help dialog for key combinations. Additionally, --prop:sim/models/bo105/managed-view=0 works. You can put that into autosave.xml. Shouldn't the old style of view the default property and the new managed-view the one which is selectable? No. Ok, why? Matthias m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
Hi, I also prefer the new style. (It's the same discussion as we had in the mid 90s with hexagon kartell. Some loved this function, some hated it. At the end it was on per default (my decision ;-) ), but it was able to put it off by default by a menu entry. Is it possible to save sim/models/bo105/managed-view by default? Maik Melchior FRANZ schrieb: * Matthias Boerner -- Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:27: how can I turn off the property managed-view? See the ?-key help dialog for key combinations. Additionally, --prop:sim/models/bo105/managed-view=0 works. You can put that into autosave.xml. Shouldn't the old style of view the default property and the new managed-view the one which is selectable? No. m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
* Maik Justus -- Thursday 17 August 2006 00:23: but it was able to put it off by default by a menu entry. This is already possible. See View-Toggle dynamic cockpit view. You need a recent CVS version for that, though ... not older than ... 3 minutes. :-) Is it possible to save sim/models/bo105/managed-view by default? It's already saved by default (- autosave.xml). My advice to put it there was, of course, nonsense. Hey, it's already two days that I implemented it, one can forget things, right? ;-) m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
Hi, On Thursday 17 August 2006 00:23, Maik Justus wrote: Hi, I also prefer the new style. (It's the same discussion as we had in the mid 90s with hexagon kartell. Some loved this function, some hated it. At the end it was on per default (my decision ;-) ), but it was able to put it off by default by a menu entry. Is it possible to save sim/models/bo105/managed-view by default? I think it is possible to turn off this mode by using Alt-v and close the session or the way Melchior described in his answer. But what is this mode for? Should it give me a more realistic feeling? If I fly a light left turn my view is wandering to the left side and ends 90 degree of the longitudinal axis of the helicopter. I don't think that is the way it should be. If I use the cyclic flying left and right turns the view rolls heavily. Matthias Maik Melchior FRANZ schrieb: * Matthias Boerner -- Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:27: how can I turn off the property managed-view? See the ?-key help dialog for key combinations. Additionally, --prop:sim/models/bo105/managed-view=0 works. You can put that into autosave.xml. Shouldn't the old style of view the default property and the new managed-view the one which is selectable? No. m. -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=1216 42 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
* Matthias Boerner -- Thursday 17 August 2006 00:15: On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:30, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Matthias Boerner -- Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:27: Shouldn't the old style of view the default property and the new managed-view the one which is selectable? No. Ok, why? Because I like it and think it should be active by default. FlightGear aircraft are property of their creators -- they decide (as long as no sacred rules are violated). Everyone is free to modify his/her copy, to fork it, or even to create their own, better aircraft. We could use some more helicopters. What about you?! Any contribution around the corner? If there was a poll (which is not the case), then I would have to say: 5 people welcomed it. *Nobody* has complained about it so far. You didn't argue at all, just imply a sacred rule that doesn't exist. Mathias had the most ridiculous argument: the 100 rich guys with panorama or multi-screen setup, or head-trackers shouldn't have to turn it off. I'm very depressed and sad to cause this pain to that 0.0001% minority, and you can call me old-fashioned, but somehow I think that doing what I consider desirable for 99.% of users is right. m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
* Melchior FRANZ -- Thursday 17 August 2006 00:51: Mathias had the most ridiculous argument: the 100 rich guys with panorama or multi-screen setup, or head-trackers shouldn't have to turn it off. Oh, sorry. I completely got that wrong. This wasn't meant as an argument why it should *be* turned off, but only why it should be *easy* to turn off. Yes, I agree. And that's possible, and even persistent. One has to do it only once. Sorry :-/ m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to turn off managed-view?
On Thursday 17 August 2006 00:51, Melchior FRANZ wrote: Ok, why? Because I like it and think it should be active by default. FlightGear aircraft are property of their creators -- they decide (as long as no sacred rules are violated). Everyone is free to modify his/her copy, to fork it, or even to create their own, better aircraft. From my point of view this is a total misfeature. We could use some more helicopters. What about you?! Any contribution around the corner? Don't mix up independent things Mechior ... If there was a poll (which is not the case), then I would have to say: 5 people welcomed it. *Nobody* has complained about it so far. You didn't argue at all, just imply a sacred rule that doesn't exist. Mathias had the most ridiculous argument: the 100 rich guys with panorama or multi-screen setup, or head-trackers shouldn't have to turn it off. I'm very depressed and sad to cause this pain to that 0.0001% minority, and you can call me old-fashioned, but somehow I think that doing what I consider desirable for 99.% of users is right. No, if you want to present flightgear in an environment where this stuff does not make sense at all and where people expect a somehow well done and working presentation, you don't want to additionally fiddle with that stuff. But anyway can we have a maser switch to get rid of that once for ever in every aircraft? Greetings Mathias - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
