Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Additional Languages

[Aitor Santamaría via Freedos-devel]

Hello,

The report of Henrique, very accurate as usual :)

I just wanted to add two extras:

- Table-making characters that mixed single-lined and double-lined borders
were reused to accomodate the extra characters. That is why programs that
used tables mixing single-lined and double-lined borders look awkward in
most western European machines using 850/858.

- IIRC, one of the characters that were reused was a single character that
exists in 437 to represent the currency that existed in Spain before the
Euro times, the "Peseta"  (btw a Catalan-style diminutive for "Peso", which
is often used in some Spanish speaking countries). It was usually
abbreviated to "Pta" or "Ptas", so you get used to saving 3 or 4 characters
for it in contability software. I know no computer program that ever used
that single-character "Peseta" sign that existed in CP437. With the Euro €
sign you no longer have that problem, but it came in 2002, well after
Windows95, so I assume not many programs were actually designed for CP 858.

Nevertheless, I would recommend always using CP858 if you planned to use
CP850.

Aitor


On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 at 15:27, Henrique Peron  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> cp437 does not cover spanish because it needs uppercase-acute-accented
> vowels (other than "É/é"), as does portuguese and many other romance
> languages, such as catalan, which you mentioned. Providing "Ñ/ñ", "¡/¿",
> "«/»" and "ª/º" is not enough.
>
> Dutch is not properly handled by any MS-DOS/IBM-DOS codepage, ISO 8859-x
> or any other 8-bit encoding I've seen so far because they all lack the
> "IJ/ij" ligature (apart from that, there's no problem). It is encoded on
> Unicode for compatibility with old character tables, therefore I assume
> that there's some platform out there where a dutch keyboard layout can type
> it.
>
> Henrique
>
> Em 19/12/2015 11:08, Steve Nickolas escreveu:
>
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2015, Henrique Peron wrote:
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> CP437 is very weak. It only covers german, swedish and finnish. It is
> only a "copy" of the table of characters available on those old CGA
> cards.
>
> Should cover Spanish and Dutch too.  I think it also covers Catalan.
>
>
> There's a catch here: MS-DOS only provided cp850 for western Europe;
> IBM-DOS also provided cp858, which is "cp850+Euro sign", that's why it
> is the official codepage for western european languages on FreeDOS.
>
> Only starting in 1998, though.
>
> -uso.
>
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[Freedos-devel] FDI - Wiki

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello all,

For those who are interested, I have been working on the FDI Wiki. It is not 
complete yet. However, It currently contains the everything you would need to 
know to build a FDI based FreeDOS release. Including, how to replicate the 
build environment, updating and adding packages and hanging release version 
numbers. All, of the basic stuff in the process is included. Advanced things, 
like customizing the theme and developing add-on user prompts and custom 
install processes, will come at later when I have the time. 

https://github.com/shidel/FDI/wiki

Some of the things, like setting up the Build Environment, are not nearly as 
bad as they look. I just tried to leave absolutely nothing out in the process. 

Thanks, Jerome
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[Freedos-devel] FDI Preview 15, Update 3

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello All,

Sorry that it took so long, but I have been swamped the last couple weeks. 

Anyhow, I updated vinfo in V8Power tools to detect QEMU. So, FDI should no 
longer get stuck by trying to create a RAMDRIVE or have issues under QEMU 
emulation.

Preview 15 Update 3 is now available at http://up.lod.bz/FDI

Thans for your patients, Jerome.

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[Freedos-devel] FDI Preview 15, Update 2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello All, 

I just pushed another minor update to Preview 15.

Changes:

- Typo correction on Partition Drive Screen.
- Automatic updating of installed FDNPKG.CFG drive letters to C:
(some were left pointing to D: after USB stick installation)

Thanks, Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 2:34 PM, Maarten <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don’t have something to tell you about the problem, unfortunatly. But I 
> have something what might is an idea, but you all know that better then me.
>  
> Maybe we can provide an ‘upgrade’-installer and a System-installer. The 
> upgrade installer you just run from DOS os’s. If we can, we put both 
> installers in that setup image. But when the user chooses upgrade [1] you 
> copy the upgrade/update installer to the drive and you reboot the system, let 
> them run that installer. This solves the problem of drive letters, and is 
> simpler to run. You don’t need to run the setup installer, because this asks 
> you things you don’t need when upgrading your old FreeDOS and/or MS-DOS, 
> PC-DOS etc.
>  
> The system-installer would just be the FDI we all know. :)

I don’t think it would be needed. FDI detects wether or not a previous install 
is present. 
In normal mode. It will import language and the FreeDOS directory settings if 
present.
So, removes the Language screen automatically.

Says Welcome to installer, continue?
Asks if the user wants to back up old files?
Asks, base or full w/without sources?
Asks, if they are now ready to install just in case?
When done, asks if user wants to reboot?

I don’t see how a separate upgrade only version could reduce the number of 
questions or 
simplify the process for the user.

If the user is installing to a formatted but empty drive in normal mode:

Select language?
Welcome, continue?
Base or Full, w.without sources?
Do the install or quit?
Reboot or exit to DOS?

In advanced mode, the user gets to play “50 questions” because almost
nothing is assumed.


>  
>  
> [1] probably you need to prompt “This will upgrade you from any DOS OS. Setup 
> will copy the installer to your disk. To run type: ‘Upgrade’.”
>  
>  
> Maarten
>  
>  
>  
> Working on:
> Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (Western Schreech-Owl)
>  
> Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr. <mailto:jer...@shidel.net>
> Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2016 19:19
> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers. 
> <mailto:freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue
>  
> I have a report of another issue regarding the USB stick installer.
>  
> Basically, the user has 2 drives. one MS-DOS and one Other DOS formatted.
>  
> The user boots the USB stick and all seems well through the install process. 
>  
> Reboots, and is faced with MS-DOS again. FreeDOS installed to D:.
>  
> After, a little back and forth, it turns out that when he boots the USB stick
> the USB stick is Drive C: and the other DOS drive is D:. The original 
> MS-DOS C: drive is nowhere to be found.
>  
> So, the installer behaves correctly. But, FreeDOS is not the boot drive. 
>  
> This appears to be completely BIOS related and I don’t think there is
> anything the installer can do about it. 
>  
> The solution was to to just boot MS-DOS and switch over to whatever
> drive letter the USB stick now has and run setup.bat. This method was 
> not optimal, but worked fine.
>  
> Like I said, I don’t think there is anything the installer can do about it. 
> But, it is something to be remembered.
>  
> Thanks, Jerome
>  
>  
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Maarten]

I don’t have something to tell you about the problem, unfortunatly. But I have 
something what might is an idea, but you all know that better then me.

Maybe we can provide an ‘upgrade’-installer and a System-installer. The upgrade 
installer you just run from DOS os’s. If we can, we put both installers in that 
setup image. But when the user chooses upgrade [1] you copy the upgrade/update 
installer to the drive and you reboot the system, let them run that installer. 
This solves the problem of drive letters, and is simpler to run. You don’t need 
to run the setup installer, because this asks you things you don’t need when 
upgrading your old FreeDOS and/or MS-DOS, PC-DOS etc.

The system-installer would just be the FDI we all know. :)


[1] probably you need to prompt “This will upgrade you from any DOS OS. Setup 
will copy the installer to your disk. To run type: ‘Upgrade’.”


Maarten



Working on:
Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (Western Schreech-Owl)

Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2016 19:19
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

I have a report of another issue regarding the USB stick installer.

Basically, the user has 2 drives. one MS-DOS and one Other DOS formatted.

The user boots the USB stick and all seems well through the install process. 

Reboots, and is faced with MS-DOS again. FreeDOS installed to D:.

After, a little back and forth, it turns out that when he boots the USB stick
the USB stick is Drive C: and the other DOS drive is D:. The original 
MS-DOS C: drive is nowhere to be found.

So, the installer behaves correctly. But, FreeDOS is not the boot drive. 

This appears to be completely BIOS related and I don’t think there is
anything the installer can do about it. 

The solution was to to just boot MS-DOS and switch over to whatever
drive letter the USB stick now has and run setup.bat. This method was 
not optimal, but worked fine.

Like I said, I don’t think there is anything the installer can do about it. 
But, it is something to be remembered.

Thanks, Jerome


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Louis Santillan]

fdisk can provide more info in this situation I think.  I think it can
actually map (print) all the BIOS drives and their BIOS port number.
Running `fdisk /dump` [0] should do it.

[0] http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/base/fdisk.htm

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
 wrote:
> I have a report of another issue regarding the USB stick installer.
>
> Basically, the user has 2 drives. one MS-DOS and one Other DOS formatted.
>
> The user boots the USB stick and all seems well through the install process.
>
> Reboots, and is faced with MS-DOS again. FreeDOS installed to D:.
>
> After, a little back and forth, it turns out that when he boots the USB stick
> the USB stick is Drive C: and the other DOS drive is D:. The original
> MS-DOS C: drive is nowhere to be found.
>
> So, the installer behaves correctly. But, FreeDOS is not the boot drive.
>
> This appears to be completely BIOS related and I don’t think there is
> anything the installer can do about it.
>
> The solution was to to just boot MS-DOS and switch over to whatever
> drive letter the USB stick now has and run setup.bat. This method was
> not optimal, but worked fine.
>
> Like I said, I don’t think there is anything the installer can do about it.
> But, it is something to be remembered.
>
> Thanks, Jerome
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

I have a report of another issue regarding the USB stick installer.

Basically, the user has 2 drives. one MS-DOS and one Other DOS formatted.

The user boots the USB stick and all seems well through the install process. 

Reboots, and is faced with MS-DOS again. FreeDOS installed to D:.

After, a little back and forth, it turns out that when he boots the USB stick
the USB stick is Drive C: and the other DOS drive is D:. The original 
MS-DOS C: drive is nowhere to be found.

So, the installer behaves correctly. But, FreeDOS is not the boot drive. 

This appears to be completely BIOS related and I don’t think there is
anything the installer can do about it. 

The solution was to to just boot MS-DOS and switch over to whatever
drive letter the USB stick now has and run setup.bat. This method was 
not optimal, but worked fine.

Like I said, I don’t think there is anything the installer can do about it. 
But, it is something to be remembered.

Thanks, Jerome


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Maarten]

I was thinking and we may can do 5 again…. We already have that, it works. We 
only need to copy it right? :)

Maarten





Van: Louis Santillan
Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2016 11:16
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

I'm recanting my original vote.  Option 3.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Louis Santillan <lpsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the we need to emulate MS-DOS in this respect.  Or take option 5.
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Jerome Shidel <jer...@shidel.net> wrote:
>> There is an additional option.
>> 5) just do something similar FreeDOS 1.1.  Make a backup of old MBR, then
>> just blast new MBR.
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Those 3&4 , prompting we can translate. That’s bo problem because it’s
>> writing. For me the question remains after that: What is easier?
>>
>> 3&4 you shouldn’t worry about translating. Also if this is not translated it
>> isn’t a problem either. Microsoft doesn’t translate their BSOD to dutch.
>> This maybe be an incorrect comparison but it’s to give you an idea. FreeDOS
>> 1.0 had full language support, for my language but the date and time command
>> weren’t translated. What I want to say with this is, don’t worry about those
>> prompting and translating, it will be just fine! :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Maarten
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: Sorry, Jerome this was meant to be on the list. So you have 2 of the
>> same mails. Sorry for that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's ok.
>>
>>
>>
>> Working on:
>> Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
>> - netraa...@gmail.com
>> - birdos.2...@gmail.com
>> "why? Because Freedos, that's why!"
>>
>> Some Nice projects:
>> - Freedos
>> - Night DOS Kernel
>>
>>
>>
>> Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
>> Verzonden: zaterdag 20 februari 2016 23:20
>> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
>> Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any
>> reports of
>>
>> major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is
>> yet
>>
>> to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot
>> code
>>
>> already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post
>> install
>>
>> fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the
>> first situation
>>
>> is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
>>
>> If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> As I see it, there are 4 solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
>>
>> 2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new,
>> Exists leave it alone.
>>
>> 3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
>>
>> 4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1 easiest solution
>>
>>
>>
>> 2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition
>> the kernel has assigned
>>
>> to a specific drive letter.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerome
>>
>> --
>>
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Louis Santillan]

I'm recanting my original vote.  Option 3.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Louis Santillan <lpsan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the we need to emulate MS-DOS in this respect.  Or take option 5.
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Jerome Shidel <jer...@shidel.net> wrote:
>> There is an additional option.
>> 5) just do something similar FreeDOS 1.1.  Make a backup of old MBR, then
>> just blast new MBR.
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Those 3&4 , prompting we can translate. That’s bo problem because it’s
>> writing. For me the question remains after that: What is easier?
>>
>> 3&4 you shouldn’t worry about translating. Also if this is not translated it
>> isn’t a problem either. Microsoft doesn’t translate their BSOD to dutch.
>> This maybe be an incorrect comparison but it’s to give you an idea. FreeDOS
>> 1.0 had full language support, for my language but the date and time command
>> weren’t translated. What I want to say with this is, don’t worry about those
>> prompting and translating, it will be just fine! :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Maarten
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: Sorry, Jerome this was meant to be on the list. So you have 2 of the
>> same mails. Sorry for that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's ok.
>>
>>
>>
>> Working on:
>> Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
>> - netraa...@gmail.com
>> - birdos.2...@gmail.com
>> "why? Because Freedos, that's why!"
>>
>> Some Nice projects:
>> - Freedos
>> - Night DOS Kernel
>>
>>
>>
>> Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
>> Verzonden: zaterdag 20 februari 2016 23:20
>> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
>> Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any
>> reports of
>>
>> major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is
>> yet
>>
>> to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot
>> code
>>
>> already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post
>> install
>>
>> fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the
>> first situation
>>
>> is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
>>
>> If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> As I see it, there are 4 solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
>>
>> 2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new,
>> Exists leave it alone.
>>
>> 3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
>>
>> 4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1 easiest solution
>>
>>
>>
>> 2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition
>> the kernel has assigned
>>
>> to a specific drive letter.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerome
>>
>> --
>>
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>
>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>>
>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>>
>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140
>>
>> ___
>>
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>>
>> Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Louis Santillan]

I think the we need to emulate MS-DOS in this respect.  Or take option 5.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Jerome Shidel <jer...@shidel.net> wrote:
> There is an additional option.
> 5) just do something similar FreeDOS 1.1.  Make a backup of old MBR, then
> just blast new MBR.
>
> On Feb 20, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Those 3&4 , prompting we can translate. That’s bo problem because it’s
> writing. For me the question remains after that: What is easier?
>
> 3&4 you shouldn’t worry about translating. Also if this is not translated it
> isn’t a problem either. Microsoft doesn’t translate their BSOD to dutch.
> This maybe be an incorrect comparison but it’s to give you an idea. FreeDOS
> 1.0 had full language support, for my language but the date and time command
> weren’t translated. What I want to say with this is, don’t worry about those
> prompting and translating, it will be just fine! :)
>
>
>
> Maarten
>
>
>
> PS: Sorry, Jerome this was meant to be on the list. So you have 2 of the
> same mails. Sorry for that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's ok.
>
>
>
> Working on:
> Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
> - netraa...@gmail.com
> - birdos.2...@gmail.com
> "why? Because Freedos, that's why!"
>
> Some Nice projects:
> - Freedos
> - Night DOS Kernel
>
>
>
> Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
> Verzonden: zaterdag 20 februari 2016 23:20
> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
> Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any
> reports of
>
> major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is
> yet
>
> to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot
> code
>
> already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post
> install
>
> fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the
> first situation
>
> is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
>
> If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first
> problem.
>
>
>
> As I see it, there are 4 solutions.
>
>
>
> 1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
>
> 2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new,
> Exists leave it alone.
>
> 3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
>
> 4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1 easiest solution
>
>
>
> 2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition
> the kernel has assigned
>
> to a specific drive letter.
>
>
>
> 3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Jerome
>
> --
>
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>
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>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Jerome Shidel]

There is an additional option. 
5) just do something similar FreeDOS 1.1.  Make a backup of old MBR, then just 
blast new MBR.

> On Feb 20, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> Those 3&4 , prompting we can translate. That’s bo problem because it’s 
> writing. For me the question remains after that: What is easier?
> 3&4 you shouldn’t worry about translating. Also if this is not translated it 
> isn’t a problem either. Microsoft doesn’t translate their BSOD to dutch. This 
> maybe be an incorrect comparison but it’s to give you an idea. FreeDOS 1.0 
> had full language support, for my language but the date and time command 
> weren’t translated. What I want to say with this is, don’t worry about those 
> prompting and translating, it will be just fine! :)
>  
> Maarten
>  
> PS: Sorry, Jerome this was meant to be on the list. So you have 2 of the same 
> mails. Sorry for that.
>  
>  

It's ok. 


> 
> Working on:
> Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
> - netraa...@gmail.com
> - birdos.2...@gmail.com
> "why? Because Freedos, that's why!"
> 
> Some Nice projects:
> - Freedos
> - Night DOS Kernel
>  
> Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
> Verzonden: zaterdag 20 februari 2016 23:20
> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
> Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue
>  
> Hello all,
>  
> Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any reports 
> of
> major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is yet
> to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot code
> already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post 
> install
> fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the first 
> situation
> is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
> If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first 
> problem.
>  
> As I see it, there are 4 solutions.
>  
> 1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
> 2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new, 
> Exists leave it alone.
> 3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
> 4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.
>  
>  
> 1 easiest solution
>  
> 2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition 
> the kernel has assigned
> to a specific drive letter.
>  
> 3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.
>  
> Thanks in advance.
>  
> Jerome
> --
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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>  
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Those 3&4 , prompting we can translate. That’s bo problem because it’s writing. 
For me the question remains after that: What is easier?
3&4 you shouldn’t worry about translating. Also if this is not translated it 
isn’t a problem either. Microsoft doesn’t translate their BSOD to dutch. This 
maybe be an incorrect comparison but it’s to give you an idea. FreeDOS 1.0 had 
full language support, for my language but the date and time command weren’t 
translated. What I want to say with this is, don’t worry about those prompting 
and translating, it will be just fine! :)

Maarten

PS: Sorry, Jerome this was meant to be on the list. So you have 2 of the same 
mails. Sorry for that.



Working on:
Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
- netraa...@gmail.com
- birdos.2...@gmail.com
"why? Because Freedos, that's why!"

Some Nice projects:
- Freedos
- Night DOS Kernel

Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
Verzonden: zaterdag 20 februari 2016 23:20
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

Hello all, 

Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any reports of
major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is yet
to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot code 
already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post 
install 
fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the first 
situation 
is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first problem.

As I see it, there are 4 solutions.

1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new, 
Exists leave it alone.
3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.


1 easiest solution

2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition the 
kernel has assigned
to a specific drive letter. 

3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.

Thanks in advance.

Jerome
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Maarten Vermeulen]

There is a typo there ‘bo’ needs to be ‘no’. Sorry

Maarten
--


Working on:
Bird OS 2017 1.0.0a (western screech-owl)
- netraa...@gmail.com
- birdos.2...@gmail.com
"why? Because Freedos, that's why!"

Some Nice projects:
- Freedos
- Night DOS Kernel

Van: Maarten Vermeulen
Verzonden: zondag 21 februari 2016 00:57
Aan: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
Onderwerp: RE: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

Those 3&4 , prompting we can translate. That’s bo problem because it’s writing. 
For me the question remains after that: What is easier?
3&4 you shouldn’t worry about translating. Also if this is not translated it 
isn’t a problem either. Microsoft doesn’t translate their BSOD to dutch. This 
maybe be an incorrect comparison but it’s to give you an idea. FreeDOS 1.0 had 
full language support, for my language but the date and time command weren’t 
translated. What I want to say with this is, don’t worry about those prompting 
and translating, it will be just fine! :)

Maarten



Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
Verzonden: zaterdag 20 februari 2016 23:20
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

Hello all, 

Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any reports of
major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is yet
to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot code 
already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post 
install 
fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the first 
situation 
is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first problem.

As I see it, there are 4 solutions.

1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new, 
Exists leave it alone.
3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.


1 easiest solution

2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition the 
kernel has assigned
to a specific drive letter. 

3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.

Thanks in advance.

Jerome
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[Freedos-devel] FDI remaining issue

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello all, 

Preview 13 testing is still underway. So far, I have not received any reports of
major bugs or serious hiccups. However, there is one serious issue that is yet
to be resolved to my satisfaction. The MBR issue. When incompatible boot code 
already is present  or if the USB image is drive C: (targeting D:), post 
install 
fails to boot. Since it shouldn’t blast existing boot code, I guess the first 
situation 
is ok. However, the second is more tricky. Why is sys not updating the MBR?
If you force it with /BOOT or other option, you will run into the first problem.

As I see it, there are 4 solutions.

1) Don’t worry about it. Let the user fix it.
2) Write a program to figure out drive letter and test MBR, Blank force new, 
Exists leave it alone.
3) Like 2, except if it exists prompt user to blast it.
4) Don’t worry about it. But, always prompt user in advanced mode.


1 easiest solution

2 & 3 are a bit of a pain and require figuring out what drive and partition the 
kernel has assigned
to a specific drive letter. 

3 & 4 easy, but will require some more prompting and language translations.

Thanks in advance.

Jerome
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

Eric,

In general, I agree with you.

1) Doing the (possibly) surprising thing would be wrong: if an MBR exists,
overwriting it without mentioning it to the user would be wrong.  However,
changing the partitioning (as I did) and not having a booting system was
also very surprising (and wrong IMO).

2) IMO, the installer should detect and ask if the MBR could/should be
overwritten.

3) The current behavior does not mimic DOS 6 installs [0] (nor installs of
Win9x/ME/NT).  I believe they would just override the MBR.  Hence the
common late 90s/early 00's advice of install Windows first, then Linux for
dual booters.

4) As it is surprising (when compared to DOS 6 install; and therefore wrong
IMO), it does not meet Jim's "take the simple approach to FD Install" [1].

For a more advanced user like me, I was able to resolve it and they should
too.  However, someone who never used DOS or doesn't remember DOS (which I
hope would be the majority of downloaders once this is released), taking an
old netbook, laptop, or desktop, this would be the kind of thing that would
stop them.


[0] https://youtu.be/wlvqEzt5OfM
[1]
http://freedos-project.blogspot.com/2015/05/a-few-thoughts-on-simplifying-install.html

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 6:16 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:

>
> This is tricky - replacing the MBR when things already work
> would be dangerous! It can destroy boot menus and similar.
>
> I would say if there is NO MBR at all yet, it would be okay
> to automatically replace it. If there is some MBR, but the
> DOS partition is not yet marked as bootable, it would be a
> good idea to ASK the user whether that should happen.
>
> Hi Louis :-)
>
> If boot menus are used, MBR should NOT change by default: The
> user would have to add DOS to that boot menu MANUALLY. Also,
> the users should of course be able to overwrite a boot menu
> MBR with a default MBR at their own risk by MANUAL choice.
>
> Note that a boot menu can allow you to install DOS even into
> non-primary partitions. However, our SYS might not know which
> special boot sector / BPB values are required to boot there.
>
> Non-primary partitions have relative disk position offsets.
>
> This discussion is related to the question whether DOS should
> change partitioning during install: I think NOT by default.
>
> We do not have sufficiently modern tools to resize existing
> partitions, so changes would often destroy other data. When
> DOS is installed to an EMPTY disk or VM, it is of course okay
> to replace "no partitions" and install DOS partitions :-) If
> other partitions exist, I would ask the user to make some FAT
> partition for DOS (with their own tools) and try again later.
>
> Of course the user can always be offered to destroy existing
> partitions and use FDISK, if they REALLY want to do that.
>
> Cheers, eric
>
> > Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind
> Netbook.
> > I ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it
> > out eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures
> and
> > video.
> >
> > Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no
> > support for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).
> >
> > [0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 12:52 AM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
>
> Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind Netbook.
> I ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it out
> eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures and
> video.

Very nicely documented, BTW.

N.B. "Destined for Chromixium 1.5.", see DistroWatch news ("Chromixium
changes its name"; Cub Linux due in May 2016):

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20160125#news

> Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no support
> for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).
>
> [0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind

I question the wisdom of putting LBACACHE in FDCONFIG.SYS at all. I
see you're using INSTALLHIGH, which I guess? would save a bit of
environment space. But that's outweighed by the 10 kb (or more!) that
you can't "STOP" (unload) later (without rebooting).

Granted, you have 59 bytes free (577 kb), so maybe it's moot. Most
people will never need more than that. At least you can unload DOSLFN
to gain back 12 kb more, so maybe I'm overreacting here. Just normally
I put as much unloadable stuff last, if possible.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

I used the default, minimal install.  No updates to
autoexec.bat/config.sys.  That's a Jerome question.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 12:52 AM, Louis Santillan 
> wrote:
> >
> > Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind
> Netbook.
> > I ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it
> out
> > eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures and
> > video.
>
> Very nicely documented, BTW.
>
> N.B. "Destined for Chromixium 1.5.", see DistroWatch news ("Chromixium
> changes its name"; Cub Linux due in May 2016):
>
> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20160125#news
>
> > Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no
> support
> > for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).
> >
> > [0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind
>
> I question the wisdom of putting LBACACHE in FDCONFIG.SYS at all. I
> see you're using INSTALLHIGH, which I guess? would save a bit of
> environment space. But that's outweighed by the 10 kb (or more!) that
> you can't "STOP" (unload) later (without rebooting).
>
> Granted, you have 59 bytes free (577 kb), so maybe it's moot. Most
> people will never need more than that. At least you can unload DOSLFN
> to gain back 12 kb more, so maybe I'm overreacting here. Just normally
> I put as much unloadable stuff last, if possible.
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

> On Jan 28, 2016, at 1:52 AM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> 
> Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind Netbook.  I 
> ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it out 
> eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures and video.
> 
> Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no support 
> for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).
> 
> [0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind

Just watched your video. The USB stick ran very nicely on your hardware. 
And you page was nicely detailed on the install process. Well done.

Just a couple notes, that don’t really matter.

That was pre10 not pre6. (Hopefully, I will have time to push pre11 tomorrow)

The forcing the stick to be treated as drive A: caused the boot errors when 
you were trying to fix the boot loop issue. (Hope to implement a cure for the 
boot errors in  pre11)

The MBR boot code issue. Yeah, I know. It just seems to be like others have 
mentioned.
If you replace it, you may be breaking stuff. If you don’t replace it, it may 
not boot.
Maybe, I will add an option to FDI in advanced mode to force a MBR boot code 
update
in some future pre or beta release of FDI. Or, if I have the time, I might add 
a check for
MBR boot code in V8Power Tools.

You didn’t try advanced mode? (either by manually launching as "setup.bat adv” 
or
pressing CTRL+C at any of the choice boxes)

> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:22 PM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> Is there an ISO yet of FDI/FD 1.2preX?  Forgot that M6805 has a broken BIOS 
> wrt to USB boot.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
> >  Hello Eric and all,
> >
> > A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
> >
> > The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode to 
> > override
> > the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran 
> > flawlessly when he
> > set it to C:\FDOS.
> >
> > He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be 
> > issues with the
> > FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to boot and 
> > load drivers from
> > an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive it is running on. The 
> > wrong target
> > issue was an assumption I made and will fix.
> 
> Just remove all mentions of absolute drive letters (in FDCONFIG.SYS)
> entirely. It should still work. "DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEMX.EXE" That's what
> I did with my MetaDOS floppy image, and it works (once extracted) atop
> (RUFUS-made) USB as "C:" or floppy as "A:".
> 
> > It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB 
> > stick installer may be viable.
> 
> Not all USB sticks are bootable, but most are. Plus, old machines
> (like my P4) need help (e.g. PLoP boot manager first, which makes it
> read-only, which isn't ideal but far better than nothing). We always
> have third-party things like RUFUS or UNetBootIn, too.
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

> On Jan 28, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> 
> I used the default, minimal install.  No updates to autoexec.bat/config.sys.  
> That's a Jerome question.

Ok.

> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 12:52 AM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> >
> > Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind Netbook.
> > I ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it out
> > eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures and
> > video.
> 
> Very nicely documented, BTW.
> 
> N.B. "Destined for Chromixium 1.5.", see DistroWatch news ("Chromixium
> changes its name"; Cub Linux due in May 2016):
> 
> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20160125#news
> 
> > Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no support
> > for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).
> >
> > [0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind
> 
> I question the wisdom of putting LBACACHE in FDCONFIG.SYS at all. I
> see you're using INSTALLHIGH, which I guess? would save a bit of
> environment space. But that's outweighed by the 10 kb (or more!) that
> you can't "STOP" (unload) later (without rebooting).
> 
> Granted, you have 59 bytes free (577 kb), so maybe it's moot. Most
> people will never need more than that. At least you can unload DOSLFN
> to gain back 12 kb more, so maybe I'm overreacting here. Just normally
> I put as much unloadable stuff last, if possible.

I will probably move it to the AUTOEXEC. I may move the CD/DVD driver there
as well. Even though the USB image doesn’t need it, It may be useful to keep it
on the image for recovery or repair purposes.

> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Eric Auer]

This is tricky - replacing the MBR when things already work
would be dangerous! It can destroy boot menus and similar.

I would say if there is NO MBR at all yet, it would be okay
to automatically replace it. If there is some MBR, but the
DOS partition is not yet marked as bootable, it would be a
good idea to ASK the user whether that should happen.

Hi Louis :-)

If boot menus are used, MBR should NOT change by default: The
user would have to add DOS to that boot menu MANUALLY. Also,
the users should of course be able to overwrite a boot menu
MBR with a default MBR at their own risk by MANUAL choice.

Note that a boot menu can allow you to install DOS even into
non-primary partitions. However, our SYS might not know which
special boot sector / BPB values are required to boot there.

Non-primary partitions have relative disk position offsets.

This discussion is related to the question whether DOS should
change partitioning during install: I think NOT by default.

We do not have sufficiently modern tools to resize existing
partitions, so changes would often destroy other data. When
DOS is installed to an EMPTY disk or VM, it is of course okay
to replace "no partitions" and install DOS partitions :-) If
other partitions exist, I would ask the user to make some FAT
partition for DOS (with their own tools) and try again later.

Of course the user can always be offered to destroy existing
partitions and use FDISK, if they REALLY want to do that.

Cheers, eric

> Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind Netbook.
> I ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it
> out eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures and
> video.
> 
> Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no
> support for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).
> 
> [0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

Well...so I finished my testing late last night with the MSI Wind Netbook.
I ran into an issue the MBR was never updated by FDI 1.2. :/  Figured it
out eventually.  You can read more about it here [0].  There's pictures and
video.

Now, I need to produce an ISO now for the eMachines M6805 I have (no
support for USB flash drive boot; tried several BIOSes).

[0] https://sites.google.com/site/lpsantil/fdi12-msi-wind

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:22 PM, Louis Santillan 
wrote:

> Is there an ISO yet of FDI/FD 1.2preX?  Forgot that M6805 has a broken
> BIOS wrt to USB boot.
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>> >  Hello Eric and all,
>> >
>> > A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
>> >
>> > The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced
>> mode to override
>> > the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran
>> flawlessly when he
>> > set it to C:\FDOS.
>> >
>> > He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to
>> be issues with the
>> > FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to boot and
>> load drivers from
>> > an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive it is running on.
>> The wrong target
>> > issue was an assumption I made and will fix.
>>
>> Just remove all mentions of absolute drive letters (in FDCONFIG.SYS)
>> entirely. It should still work. "DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEMX.EXE" That's what
>> I did with my MetaDOS floppy image, and it works (once extracted) atop
>> (RUFUS-made) USB as "C:" or floppy as "A:".
>>
>> > It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a
>> USB stick installer may be viable.
>>
>> Not all USB sticks are bootable, but most are. Plus, old machines
>> (like my P4) need help (e.g. PLoP boot manager first, which makes it
>> read-only, which isn't ideal but far better than nothing). We always
>> have third-party things like RUFUS or UNetBootIn, too.
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Antony Gordon]

Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and IBM
(and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
operating system.

All these extra drivers for this, a compiler for that can just be on the CD
and can be installed later.

Jerome, if you could find a copy of DOS 5 or later just to see how the
install goes, actually I think a lot of you all need to revisit what the
default install of DOS gives you.

It would make things a lot more compatible across the myriad of platforms
(both virtual and real hardware).

Anyone using DOS at this point doesn't need their hand held with regard to
configuration.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  wrote:

> On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> > Hi again, quick reply,
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint 
> wrote:
> >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite
> some
> >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> "distro"...
> >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
> >
> Well, fix it. It's Open Source
>
> Ralf
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Antony Gordon]

Hi,

Exactly. If you want networking, install it afterwards. The same for sound,
the myriad of development choices and memory managers. Despite wanting to
emulate DOS, it seems FreeDOS more closely emulates a Linux distribution
from the verbose initial boot to the "package" selection.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 6:33 AM Mateusz Viste  wrote:

> On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> > Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> > IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> > operating system.
>
> I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages,
> "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...
>
> What I'd love, as a user, is to be able to put the FreeDOS install CD
> (or floppy) into my computer, select a single choice "Yes, I want to
> install FreeDOS even though it means all existing data will be wiped
> out", and get a FreeDOS shell seconds later. A shell that mimicks what
> MS-DOS 6.x provided. And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.
>
> Mateusz
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> >  > Hi again, quick reply,
> >  >
> >  > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  > > wrote:
> >  >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint
> > > wrote:
> >  >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >  >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS,
> > despite some
> >  >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> > "distro"...
> >  >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
> >  >
> > Well, fix it. It's Open Source
> >
> > Ralf
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Tom Ehlert]

> On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
>> Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
>> IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
>> operating system.

> I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages, 
> "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...

you are not alone. we are at least 3.

> ...
> And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

Is there an ISO yet of FDI/FD 1.2preX?  Forgot that M6805 has a broken BIOS
wrt to USB boot.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
> >  Hello Eric and all,
> >
> > A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
> >
> > The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode
> to override
> > the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran
> flawlessly when he
> > set it to C:\FDOS.
> >
> > He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to
> be issues with the
> > FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to boot and
> load drivers from
> > an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive it is running on.
> The wrong target
> > issue was an assumption I made and will fix.
>
> Just remove all mentions of absolute drive letters (in FDCONFIG.SYS)
> entirely. It should still work. "DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEMX.EXE" That's what
> I did with my MetaDOS floppy image, and it works (once extracted) atop
> (RUFUS-made) USB as "C:" or floppy as "A:".
>
> > It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a
> USB stick installer may be viable.
>
> Not all USB sticks are bootable, but most are. Plus, old machines
> (like my P4) need help (e.g. PLoP boot manager first, which makes it
> read-only, which isn't ideal but far better than nothing). We always
> have third-party things like RUFUS or UNetBootIn, too.
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>  Hello Eric and all,
>
> A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
>
> The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode to 
> override
> the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran 
> flawlessly when he
> set it to C:\FDOS.
>
> He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be 
> issues with the
> FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to boot and load 
> drivers from
> an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive it is running on. The 
> wrong target
> issue was an assumption I made and will fix.

Just remove all mentions of absolute drive letters (in FDCONFIG.SYS)
entirely. It should still work. "DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEMX.EXE" That's what
I did with my MetaDOS floppy image, and it works (once extracted) atop
(RUFUS-made) USB as "C:" or floppy as "A:".

> It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB 
> stick installer may be viable.

Not all USB sticks are bootable, but most are. Plus, old machines
(like my P4) need help (e.g. PLoP boot manager first, which makes it
read-only, which isn't ideal but far better than nothing). We always
have third-party things like RUFUS or UNetBootIn, too.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Rugxulo wrote:

> The EXE2BIN in "BASE" is literally from OpenWatcom 1.5. And I have no
> idea what you would do with it (or a linker) without some kind of
> compiler. So I think that's a bad idea, even if MS used to do it. I've
> said this before, but apparently nobody agrees with me.

exe2bin and link were removed, not even merely relegated to supplemental, 
from later versions of DOS (3.30 on).  I think that's fine; leave it to 
the compiler to provide those tools.

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI, updated

[Louis Santillan]

I'd like to make a minor suggestion here.

When packaging up USB image to a zip file, leave off directory path to the
image.

Thanks,


On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> I forgot something in the old (10 minute ago release).
> So, i just put up another FDI update.
>
> http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest
>
> Also, if someone wants to see if the USB stick image thingy works.
> (I have no way to boot it at present)
>
> http://up.lod.bz/FDI-USB.zip
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI, updated

[Jerome Shidel]

Ah, sorry. Didn't realize it was in there. Will do.

Sent from my iPhone, ignore bad sentence structures, grammatical errors and 
incorrect spell-corrected words.

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 3:53 AM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to make a minor suggestion here.
> 
> When packaging up USB image to a zip file, leave off directory path to the 
> image.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  
>> wrote:
>> I forgot something in the old (10 minute ago release).
>> So, i just put up another FDI update.
>> 
>> http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest
>> 
>> Also, if someone wants to see if the USB stick image thingy works.
>> (I have no way to boot it at present)
>> 
>> http://up.lod.bz/FDI-USB.zip
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Personally, I would like BASE to be more or less a minimum viable OS install 
and ALL to be a most likely 
wanted install. 

When I say minimum viable I mean: kernel, freecom, xcopy, deltree, move and a 
few other more or less
absolutes. 

However, by my understanding of what Jim wants. BASE is supposed to be 
equivalent to to what 
was provided with MS-DOS. 

For us dev types, it is very easy to make a custom package set for FDI or to 
just
roll your own installer. 

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 6:46 AM, Antony Gordon  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Exactly. If you want networking, install it afterwards. The same for sound, 
> the myriad of development choices and memory managers. Despite wanting to 
> emulate DOS, it seems FreeDOS more closely emulates a Linux distribution from 
> the verbose initial boot to the "package" selection.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 6:33 AM Mateusz Viste  wrote:
> On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> > Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> > IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> > operating system.
> 
> I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages,
> "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...
> 
> What I'd love, as a user, is to be able to put the FreeDOS install CD
> (or floppy) into my computer, select a single choice "Yes, I want to
> install FreeDOS even though it means all existing data will be wiped
> out", and get a FreeDOS shell seconds later. A shell that mimicks what
> MS-DOS 6.x provided. And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.
> 
> Mateusz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> >  > Hi again, quick reply,
> >  >
> >  > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  > > wrote:
> >  >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint
> > > wrote:
> >  >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >  >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS,
> > despite some
> >  >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> > "distro"...
> >  >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
> >  >
> > Well, fix it. It's Open Source
> >
> > Ralf
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> Personally, I would like BASE to be more or less a minimum viable OS
> install and ALL to be a most likely
> wanted install.
>
> When I say minimum viable I mean: kernel, freecom, xcopy, deltree, move
> and a few other more or less
> absolutes.
>
> However, by my understanding of what Jim wants. BASE is supposed to be
> equivalent to to what
> was provided with MS-DOS.
>
> For us dev types, it is very easy to make a custom package set for FDI or
> to just
> roll your own installer.
>



Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
the original MS-DOS.

I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:

>
> Hi Tom, Maarten, Jerome and Rugxulo,
>
> >> I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
>
> > fine. we should look for a new boss with more time to care.
>
> Not THAT, permanently, busy - Jim is busy at the MOMENT with some
> current news :-) Regarding Maarten's mail: No need for complicated
> excuses... Simply don't send patches for kernel and command.com: At
> least I am happy with your help such as translations or testing :-)
>

Yes, it seems I over-committed myself to projects at around the same time I
changed jobs. Oops. I'm busy at work, but also busy with a bunch of other
things that I thought I'd have the time to do.



>
> I think it is safe to assume that "open and license-safe" are good
> choices. Also it is safe to assume that "mimicks a MS DOS feature"
> is a good reason to be in BASE. However, I think this can be seen
> relaxed regarding drivers: If it mimicks a MS "DOS" 7 feature such
> as LFN, it is useful to people who know "DOS" as part of Windows.
>
> And if it is a driver for something that did not even exist when
> MS DOS existed, such as USB or DVD drives, it should also be BASE
> because using your hardware seems to be a basic thing for me. Of
> course I would not make camera drivers base, because MS DOS never
> shipped with video editing or chat software by default :-)
>
>
Yes, if it replicated original MS-DOS functionality, it should be in Base.
This includes programs like APPEND, ASSIGN, ATTRIB, CHKDSK, … UNDELETE,
UNFORMAT, XCOPY, … etc. We've always been very careful about extending the
"Base" list, but over time we have added one or two things that weren't in
the original MS-DOS. I prefer this list not grow too much. Extra items can
go in other sets, or just a single "Extras" software set if we don't want
to continue "Devel" and "Edit" and other sets.


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Tom Ehlert  wrote:

>
> > On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> >> Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> >> IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> >> operating system.
>
> > I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> > I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages,
> > "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...
>
> you are not alone. we are at least 3.
>

Maybe at least 4 :-)



>
> > ...
> > And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> > additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.
>
> Tom
>


I advise keeping FreeDOS simple. I worry that the proposed new installer is
becoming too complex.

At least as early as 2010
,
I wanted to simplify the FreeDOS install. The installation process should
be a minimum of prompts:


   1. Do you want to install just the "base" FreeDOS, or everything?
   2. Do you want the source code, too?


After that, the install should take care of itself.

Installing "Base; no source code" should take only a few minutes and a
"few" MB of disk space.


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC
> was small but
> > somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
> >
> >
> Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
> FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
> the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...
>
> Ralf
>
>
Agreed.

A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many
years ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC
interpreter (I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite
BASIC. Since we already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in
"Devel," it made sense to move BASIC into the "Devel" set.

I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move
BWBASIC back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original
"BASIC interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into
"Devel" or "Extras."


The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:


   1. BASEC
   2. BWBASIC
   3. FreeBASIC
   4. SmallBASIC
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no 
sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part. Leave 
it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)

Maarten

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Jim Hall" <jh...@freedos.org>
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 20:49
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2





On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint <freedos...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was 
> small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>
>
Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...

Ralf




Agreed.


A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many years 
ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC interpreter 
(I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite BASIC. Since we 
already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in "Devel," it made sense to 
move BASIC into the "Devel" set.


I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move BWBASIC 
back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original "BASIC 
interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into "Devel" or 
"Extras."




The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:


BASEC

BWBASIC

FreeBASIC

SmallBASIC--
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Louis Santillan]

Since DOS 1.0, (IBM/ROM-)BASIC[0] & DEBUG[1] were the default programming
facilities.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BASIC
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_(command)

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and
> DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no
> sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part.
> Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)
>
> Maarten
> --
> Van: Jim Hall <jh...@freedos.org>
> Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 20:49
> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
> <freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint <freedos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>> >   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC
>> was small but
>> > somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>> >
>> >
>> Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
>> FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
>> the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
>> "distro"...
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>>
> Agreed.
>
> A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many
> years ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC
> interpreter (I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite
> BASIC. Since we already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in
> "Devel," it made sense to move BASIC into the "Devel" set.
>
> I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move
> BWBASIC back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original
> "BASIC interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into
> "Devel" or "Extras."
>
>
> The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:
>
>
>1. BASEC
>2. BWBASIC
>3. FreeBASIC
>4. SmallBASIC
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

+1

On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It 
makes no sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic 
system part. Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)


Maarten


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Things I endorse:
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ATI
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FreeDOS
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Okay but do you mean you want it back in 'base' or is this just info?

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Louis Santillan" <lpsan...@gmail.com>
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:02
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

Since DOS 1.0, (IBM/ROM-)BASIC[0] & DEBUG[1] were the default programming 
facilities.


[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BASIC
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_(command)


On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no 
sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part. Leave 
it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)

Maarten


Van: Jim Hall
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 20:49
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2






On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint <freedos...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was 
> small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>
>
Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...

Ralf




Agreed.


A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many years 
ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC interpreter 
(I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite BASIC. Since we 
already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in "Devel," it made sense to 
move BASIC into the "Devel" set.


I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move BWBASIC 
back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original "BASIC 
interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into "Devel" or 
"Extras."




The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:


BASEC

BWBASIC

FreeBASIC

SmallBASIC






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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

It's a way of saying I agree with what you said.

On 1/26/2016 3:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

What's the meaning of "+1"?!


Van: Mercury Thirteen <mailto:mercury0x0...@gmail.com>
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:03
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers. 
<mailto:freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>

Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

+1

On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It 
makes no sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic 
system part. Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)


Maarten


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Oh yes! Of course... :/

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Mercury Thirteen" <mercury0x0...@gmail.com>
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:31
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

It's a way of saying I agree with what you said.


On 1/26/2016 3:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

What's the meaning of "+1"?!




Van: Mercury Thirteen
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:03
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2


+1


On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no 
sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part. Leave 
it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)

Maarten 


-- 
This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.
"Why? Because FreeDOS, that's why."
Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over its 
sellers! :)
FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve recognition, 
not for personal gain of any kind.


 

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Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over its 
sellers! :)
FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve recognition, 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

>
> On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and
> DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no
> sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part.
> Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)
>
> Maarten
>
>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Mercury Thirteen 
 wrote:

> +1
>
>


I'm also okay with leaving BWBASIC in "Devel" or equivalent. It's been
there for so long, and it does make some sense to keep "development" tools
in one place.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no longer 
includes XMGR and UIDE.
this is the current ALL packages that are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything else?

https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST

Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and it is 
currently using UDVD2.

These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:

util\v8power

net\mtcp
util\4dos
util\doslfn
util\fdnpkg
util\memtest
util\bootfix
util\shsufdrv
util\cwsdpmi
archiver\zip
archiver\unzip

util\grep
util\tee
util\touch
util\which
util\pg

archiver\tar
archiver\gzip
archiver\bz2

devel\nasm
devel\fpc
devel\ow

net\wget
net\rsync
net\curl

Add or remove anything else?

Jerome





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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Antony Gordon]

Hi,

For Maarten and Mercury, look into DOS versions prior to 5.0, they included
DEBUG and (GW-)BASIC.
That would complete the DOS experience... well that and some sample BASIC
programs like GORILLA.BAS and having LINK.EXE along with EXE2BIN.

-T
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 4:06 PM Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no longer
> includes XMGR and UIDE.
> this is the current ALL packages that are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything
> else?
>
> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
>
> Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and it is
> currently using UDVD2.
>
> These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:
>
> util\v8power
>
> net\mtcp
> util\4dos
> util\doslfn
> util\fdnpkg
> util\memtest
> util\bootfix
> util\shsufdrv
> util\cwsdpmi
> archiver\zip
> archiver\unzip
>
> util\grep
> util\tee
> util\touch
> util\which
> util\pg
>
> archiver\tar
> archiver\gzip
> archiver\bz2
>
> devel\nasm
> devel\fpc
> devel\ow
>
> net\wget
> net\rsync
> net\curl
>
> Add or remove anything else?
>
> Jerome
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Jim Hall wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I would like BASE to be more or less a minimum viable OS
>> install and ALL to be a most likely
>> wanted install.
>>
>> When I say minimum viable I mean: kernel, freecom, xcopy, deltree, move
>> and a few other more or less
>> absolutes.
>>
>> However, by my understanding of what Jim wants. BASE is supposed to be
>> equivalent to to what
>> was provided with MS-DOS.
>>
>> For us dev types, it is very easy to make a custom package set for FDI or
>> to just
>> roll your own installer.
>>
>
>
>
> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
> the original MS-DOS.
>
> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."
>
>
> Jim
>

I guess I have a sort of in the middle approach: "install something 
comparable to MS-DOS 3.3", "install something comparable to MS-DOS 6.2", 
"install everything"

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Louis Santillan wrote:

> Since DOS 1.0, (IBM/ROM-)BASIC[0] & DEBUG[1] were the default programming
> facilities.
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BASIC
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_(command)

I personally consider BASIC optional.  Also, DEBUG was generally on the 
Supplemental disk up through 3.21.

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Ralf Quint]

On 1/26/2016 12:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

What's the meaning of "+1"?!
That is short for "I am one more person with the exact same 
opinion/point of view"...


Ralf


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jerome, Jim et al,

In view of available disk space on normal computers, I would like to
interpret Jim's view in a broad sense: If ANY version of MS DOS had
the feature and we have something to provide the same feature, then
we should make it part of a BASE install. This includes DEBUG, EDIT,
EDLIN, BASIC, probably even LFN drivers, although LFN are part of a
MS DOS version that could only be acquired as side-effect of Windows
installs. But we have it and it is useful for many users. There are
a few things that never shipped with MS DOS but which are BASE from
my point of view: A package manager, ZIP / UNZIP and drivers for a
number of modern pieces of hardware, including USB devices and DVD.

BASIC is a bit controversial - use BWBASIC, small but limited? Or use
FreeBASIC, big but versatile? I would say one is enough for BASE but
we should provide both for the "large" install option :-) When making
a floppy distro, experience has shown that BASE nevertheless fits on
two or three disks, with minimal changes, e.g. no BASIC and no EDLIN.
So as said, I suggest a broad selection of base things to be BASE :-)

Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.

Jim wrote:

> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
> the original MS-DOS.
> 
> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."

Jerome wrote:

> At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no
> longer includes XMGR and UIDE. this is the current ALL packages that
> are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything else?

It is good to exclude XMGR but Jim's 14 Jan mail spared UIDE, which I
would really prefer to keep. You can also reduce that to UDVD2 if you
want a more basic driver. Jim only wrote that we should drop the XMGR
HIMEM-like XMS / HMA driver from the distro.

> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
> 
> Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and
> it is currently using UDVD2.
> 
> These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:
> 
> util\v8power
> 
> net\mtcp

> util\4dos

Is the license of 4DOS fine at the moment?

> util\doslfn
> util\fdnpkg

Make the 2 above BASE, if you ask me.

> util\memtest
> util\bootfix

> util\shsufdrv
> util\cwsdpmi
> archiver\zip
> archiver\unzip

I would make those 4 BASE, too.

> util\grep
> util\tee
> util\touch
> util\which
> util\pg
> 
> archiver\tar
> archiver\gzip
> archiver\bz2
> 
> devel\nasm

Which version?

> devel\fpc

> devel\ow

OpenWatcom C AND Assembler? And how about FreeBASIC?

> net\wget
> net\rsync
> net\curl
> 
> Add or remove anything else?

Add Bret's USB drivers, if you ask me. And some choice
of network packet drivers for common real and virtual
hardware, otherwise network tools like WGET do not make
much sense. Availability of free open source network
packet drivers is limited, but I am sure you have a few.

> Jerome

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome Shidel]

Hello all, 

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome, Jim et al,
> 
> In view of available disk space on normal computers, I would like to
> interpret Jim's view in a broad sense: If ANY version of MS DOS had
> the feature and we have something to provide the same feature, then
> we should make it part of a BASE install. This includes DEBUG, EDIT,
> EDLIN, BASIC, probably even LFN drivers, although LFN are part of a
> MS DOS version that could only be acquired as side-effect of Windows
> installs. But we have it and it is useful for many users. There are
> a few things that never shipped with MS DOS but which are BASE from
> my point of view: A package manager, ZIP / UNZIP and drivers for a
> number of modern pieces of hardware, including USB devices and DVD.
> 
> BASIC is a bit controversial - use BWBASIC, small but limited? Or use
> FreeBASIC, big but versatile? I would say one is enough for BASE but
> we should provide both for the "large" install option :-) When making
> a floppy distro, experience has shown that BASE nevertheless fits on
> two or three disks, with minimal changes, e.g. no BASIC and no EDLIN.
> So as said, I suggest a broad selection of base things to be BASE :-)
> 
> Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
> list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
> older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
> dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.
> 

The ALL list is short. I do keep asking what else? Mainly, I mean what other 
packages from Mateusz' repository. Or other packages he may not have. But, I 
won't be packing up stuff to add so I would need prebuilt packages. :-)

> Jim wrote:
> 
>> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
>> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
>> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
>> the original MS-DOS.
>> 
>> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
>> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
>> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."
> 
> Jerome wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome, Jim et al,
> 
> In view of available disk space on normal computers, I would like to
> interpret Jim's view in a broad sense: If ANY version of MS DOS had
> the feature and we have something to provide the same feature, then
> we should make it part of a BASE install. This includes DEBUG, EDIT,
> EDLIN, BASIC, probably even LFN drivers, although LFN are part of a
> MS DOS version that could only be acquired as side-effect of Windows
> installs. But we have it and it is useful for many users. There are
> a few things that never shipped with MS DOS but which are BASE from
> my point of view: A package manager, ZIP / UNZIP and drivers for a
> number of modern pieces of hardware, including USB devices and DVD.
> 
> BASIC is a bit controversial - use BWBASIC, small but limited? Or use
> FreeBASIC, big but versatile? I would say one is enough for BASE but
> we should provide both for the "large" install option :-) When making
> a floppy distro, experience has shown that BASE nevertheless fits on
> two or three disks, with minimal changes, e.g. no BASIC and no EDLIN.
> So as said, I suggest a broad selection of base things to be BASE :-)
> 
> Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
> list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
> older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
> dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.
> 
> Jim wrote:
> 
>> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
>> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
>> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
>> the original MS-DOS.
>> 
>> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
>> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
>> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."
> 
> Jerome wrote:
> 
>> At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no
>> longer includes XMGR and UIDE. this is the current ALL packages that
>> are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything else?
> 
> It is good to exclude XMGR but Jim's 14 Jan mail spared UIDE, which I
> would really prefer to keep. You can also reduce that to UDVD2 if you
> want a more basic driver. Jim only wrote that we should drop the XMGR
> HIMEM-like XMS / HMA driver from the distro.
> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
>> 
>> Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and
>> it is currently using UDVD2.
>> 
>> These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:
>> 
>> util\v8power
>> 
>> net\mtcp
> 

[Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Jerome Shidel]

 Hello Eric and all,

A little more follow up on the USB stick test.

The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode to 
override the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran 
flawlessly when he set it to C:\FDOS.

He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be 
issues with the FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to 
boot and load drivers from an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive 
it is running on. The wrong target issue was an assumption I made and will fix. 

It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB stick 
installer may be viable.

Jerome

Sent from my iPhone, ignore bad sentence structures, grammatical errors and 
incorrect spell-corrected words.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 7:00 PM, Mercury Thirteen  wrote:
> 
>> On 1/26/2016 6:18 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>> ...
>> 
>> Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
>> list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
>> older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
>> dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.
>> 
>> ...
> 
> Yeah, I'm certain there were many more packages when I went through/updated 
> every single one for the ISO I put together months ago. Not sure which ones 
> are missing off the top of my head though.

Yes, there are many more packages on his repo. But, I don't think Jim wants 
everything on his repo to be installed when the user selects ALL. His repo 
contains about 500mb of zip files. The current USB stick image that only 
contained packages for BASE and ALL was about 75MB. A lot of which was FPC and 
OW.

> 
> -- 
> This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.
> "Why? Because FreeDOS, that's why."
> Things I endorse:
> AMD
> ATI
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> sellers! :)
> FreeDOS
> Samsung
> Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
> Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
> I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve 
> recognition, not for personal gain of any kind.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 1/26/2016 6:18 PM, Eric Auer wrote:

...

Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.

...


Yeah, I'm certain there were many more packages when I went 
through/updated every single one for the ISO I put together months ago. 
Not sure which ones are missing off the top of my head though.


--
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ATI
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its sellers! :)

FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jerome,

if Mateusz' repository has "500 MB of packages", then that
would make a good choice for ALL as far as I am concerned:

It easily fits on a CD and you get plenty of DOS stuff :-)

Also, it should fit on most USB sticks as well. Maybe you
could make a list of the LARGEST packages in the repository
and I can tell you which seem okay to omit, if you want to
have the distro small enough to fit even on 512 MB sticks.

That could be a very interesting discussion for my taste :-)

>>> util\4dos
>>
>> Is the license of 4DOS fine at the moment?
> 
> ... There was talk about pulling it. And talk about how bad it would be to 
> not have it. 

Wikipedia says modified MIT license, that is good enough IMHO.

>>> devel\nasm
>>
>> Which version?
> 
> Latest for DOS, I think it is 2.11.08.

I was wondering if we should also provide a 16 bit version. But
remember: It is almost impossible to boot 16 bit hardware from
CD or from USB stick, so users with such hardware will probably
first install a BASE floppy distro and then use FDNPKG to add
packages manually by individual choice anyway. So it might be
better to include ONLY the 32 bit version of NASM 2.11.08 :-)

>>> devel\fpc
> 
> Only 2.6.4. 3.0.0 requires LFN or an extensive port. 

As mentioned, including LFN seems to be a good idea for me.

>>> devel\ow
>>
>> OpenWatcom C AND Assembler?
> 
> I don't use them. But, I have no issue with including them.

What I mean was that it would be GOOD to include both, as well
as other toolchain parts such as MAKE or LINK from OpenWatcom.

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 1/26/2016 7:07 PM, Jerome Shidel wrote:
Yes, there are many more packages on his repo. But, I don't think Jim 
wants everything on his repo to be installed when the user selects 
ALL. His repo contains about 500mb of zip files. The current USB stick 
image that only contained packages for BASE and ALL was about 75MB. A 
lot of which was FPC and OW.

Ahh, ok I see.  :)

--
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ATI
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FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

I downloaded it last night.  I have an MSI Wind U100 (Atom N2700, 2GB DDR2,
120GB SATA) [0] and an eMachines M6805 (AMD Athlon 64 3000+ DTR, 512MB
PC2700, 4GB IDE) [1] I can test with when I get home tonight.


[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSI_Wind_Netbook
[1] http://www.cnet.com/products/emachines-m/specs/

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:

>  Hello Eric and all,
>
> A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
>
> The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode
> to override the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the
> install ran flawlessly when he set it to C:\FDOS.
>
> He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be
> issues with the FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS
> to boot and load drivers from an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care
> what drive it is running on. The wrong target issue was an assumption I
> made and will fix.
>
> It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB
> stick installer may be viable.
>
> Jerome
>
> Sent from my iPhone, ignore bad sentence structures, grammatical errors
> and incorrect spell-corrected words.
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Antony Gordon  wrote:
>
> For Maarten and Mercury, look into DOS versions prior to 5.0, they included
> DEBUG and (GW-)BASIC.

DEBUG is sometimes useful but only rarely (at least outside of
actually debugging separately-assembled programs). By itself, it's
only good for very very simple tests. A full assembler would be more
useful.

NASM (even old 16-bit 0.98.39) or JWasmR or (386+) FASM(D) would
probably be more generically useful, IMHO.

> That would complete the DOS experience... well that and some sample BASIC
> programs like GORILLA.BAS

There are other interpreters which I find more useful than BWBasic.
Granted, if someone wants to debug and test it further, okay. But
as-is, I'm not sure it's reliable at all. Maybe something else
(Brandy/BBC) would be more useful, but I haven't tried it (and that
dialect is a bit quirky compared to QB). Hmmm, can't remember, but
that build might be 386+ DJGPP, which I guess some of you would
dislike as default. (I don't know what else, Chipmunk Basic from P2C
compiled by OW??)

Here's what one simple program of mine (from mid 2013) said:

"
REM tested with Bywater BASIC 2.50 (32-bit DOS OpenWatcom build)
REM *** still broken! doesn't work! don't use! ***

REM bug #1:  "option base 1" confuses SUB args / array bounds
REM bug #2:  CALLing a SUB won't work (hangs) if it has no args
REM bug #3:  sometimes gets confused on multi-statement ':' lines
"

And no, I don't think I reported these bugs (shame on me). No idea if
3.00 has them as well.

> and having LINK.EXE along with EXE2BIN.

The EXE2BIN in "BASE" is literally from OpenWatcom 1.5. And I have no
idea what you would do with it (or a linker) without some kind of
compiler. So I think that's a bad idea, even if MS used to do it. I've
said this before, but apparently nobody agrees with me.

Honestly, I think we'd "maybe" be better to just include something
unrelated like Awk and Sed (or maybe PicoC, which unlike the former is
32-bit DJGPP, ugh, can't please everyone).

http://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/file/awk/
http://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/file/sed/

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> Yes, if it replicated original MS-DOS functionality, it should be in Base.
> This includes programs like APPEND, ASSIGN, ATTRIB, CHKDSK, … UNDELETE,
> UNFORMAT, XCOPY, … etc.

A lot of things nobody will ever use (e.g. APPEND, ASSIGN, RECOVER).
Even some of the heavier useful ones are too obscure and thus aren't
used every single day. And noobs certain won't use them. (How often do
you mandatory need to run CHKDSK, UNDELETE, UNFORMAT? Not much!)

"BASE" is just probably too big. Sure, some of it is (barely) useful,
but that doesn't mean that it is so crucial as to "always" have
present.

Honestly, I suspect you disagree with me, but even things like ATTRIB
or XCOPY aren't that useful except in certain cases. I don't use them
every day.

I'm not saying so bare bones that we only have shell and kernel, but
it's just too many little pieces for us few left to maintain and keep
lugging around forever. I say split off all the obscure stuff to being
manually grabbed from the iBiblio mirror (or maybe an "extended"
distro) and keep things simple.

> We've always been very careful about extending the
> "Base" list, but over time we have added one or two things that weren't in
> the original MS-DOS. I prefer this list not grow too much. Extra items can
> go in other sets, or just a single "Extras" software set if we don't want to
> continue "Devel" and "Edit" and other sets.

The average user isn't quite hardcore enough to care about all the
little pieces. They just want to run a few select apps. They don't
necessarily need everything and the kitchen sink. Compare what DOSBox
doesn't give or what DOSEMU does give, and you'll see it's quite
different.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>
>> devel\fpc
>
> Only 2.6.4. 3.0.0 requires LFN or an extensive port.

No, it doesn't need LFNs for the bare minimum cmdline compiler (no
IDE). I'm not even sure the IDE needs LFN, only some rare third-party
units (perhaps) that most people don't directly use.

The installer sees "readme-jvm.txt" inside BASEDOS.ZIP and mistakenly
assumes it needs LFNs, thus you have to manually "check" [x] even the
most basic, required package because of that one "bug." Feel free to
"zip -d basedos.zip *readme-jvm.txt", and see that it changes.

I've tested BASEDOS.ZIP without LFNs, it works fine. Literally, the
only LFN file (AFAIK) is that one "readme-jvm.txt", which is hardly
useful. The minimum compiler *should* (and does) work with SFNs.

> Yes, there are many more packages on his repo. But, I don't think Jim wants
> everything on his repo to be installed when the user selects ALL. His repo
> contains about 500mb of zip files. The current USB stick image that only
> contained packages for BASE and ALL was about 75MB. A lot of which was FPC
> and OW.

IIRC, the old FPC.ZIP is 36 MB, which is just ridiculous. There aren't
many (if any) active FPC users (for FreeDOS) besides maybe Laaca, so
it's certainly not worth polluting the default download just for that.
Laaca already has a working compiler (or two), so he doesn't need FD
1.2 at all. So it's somewhat unfair to bloat up the image (and
download bandwidth) to 75 MB when it could be half of that. Let FPC
users grab it manually outside of the distro itself.

I hate to say that, and maybe you'll disagree, but it's just too big.
Now, we could include a simple (no IDE!) FPC compiler package. As
mentioned, the only absolutely mandatory minimum files are (AFAIK):
install.exe, install.dat, basedos.zip, aslddos.zip (but even that one
is semi-optional nowadays).

The problem is that end users demand IDEs and debuggers and lots of
units and full sources, and that is tedious and error-prone to
include. But again, we don't have enough interest to even include FPC
at all. So just save the space and dump it. Let interested users find
it manually (as they've already done). It's not "BASE", it's not that
crucial.

Just my two cents, I know you'll probably have other ideas.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mateusz Viste]

On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> operating system.

I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since 
I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages, 
"advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...

What I'd love, as a user, is to be able to put the FreeDOS install CD 
(or floppy) into my computer, select a single choice "Yes, I want to 
install FreeDOS even though it means all existing data will be wiped 
out", and get a FreeDOS shell seconds later. A shell that mimicks what 
MS-DOS 6.x provided. And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install 
additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.

Mateusz




> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  > wrote:
>
> On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
>  > Hi again, quick reply,
>  >
>  > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  > wrote:
>  >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint
> > wrote:
>  >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>  >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS,
> despite some
>  >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> "distro"...
>  >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
>  >
> Well, fix it. It's Open Source
>
> Ralf
>



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Maarten Vermeulen]

The usb is not really C:. The ports might help with that. I stick my USB always 
in the same USB port and it's always F:. I think if you boot from it the USB 
will be automaticly assigned to a USB port drive letter. Also with a harddrive 
C: Is already there because that's default for the first drive/partition.

Is this right???
My explanation is a bit bad...
Maarten

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Jerome Shidel" <jer...@shidel.net>
Verzonden: ‎25-‎1-‎2016 00:58
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

Well, I just got some feedback from a Facebook user who really really wants the 
USB stick installer and tried that image I made.

He had 4 problems, but was still happy it mostly worked.

1) he had to manually start setup.bat. Which prompted for the "full shell 
command line" 

humm...

2) detected OS, but choosing backup gave an error message. 

Proceeded without doing backup.
Install ran "smoothly" to 100%

3) system files transfer failed, error message. 

He manually did sys L: C:
L: being the USB stick.

4) noted it installed to drive d:

It was supposed to be C:, but was happy he now had the FreeDOS files on the 
computer.

I though that if you booted from a USB stick, the stick would be drive C:. It 
has been a very long time since I made one. Is that incorrect? Or did he boot 
just boot normally and install from the stick? Most of the issues he described 
may disappear if in advanced mode. I made it as a hard drive C: inside a vm 
installing to a drive D:. Worked fine, although I did not test backup process 
in that situation. 

Jerome

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[Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Jerome Shidel]

Well, I just got some feedback from a Facebook user who really really wants the 
USB stick installer and tried that image I made.

He had 4 problems, but was still happy it mostly worked.

1) he had to manually start setup.bat. Which prompted for the "full shell 
command line" 

humm...

2) detected OS, but choosing backup gave an error message. 

Proceeded without doing backup.
Install ran "smoothly" to 100%

3) system files transfer failed, error message. 

He manually did sys L: C:
L: being the USB stick.

4) noted it installed to drive d:

It was supposed to be C:, but was happy he now had the FreeDOS files on the 
computer.

I though that if you booted from a USB stick, the stick would be drive C:. It 
has been a very long time since I made one. Is that incorrect? Or did he boot 
just boot normally and install from the stick? Most of the issues he described 
may disappear if in advanced mode. I made it as a hard drive C: inside a vm 
installing to a drive D:. Worked fine, although I did not test backup process 
in that situation. 

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Louis Santillan]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rugxulo et al,
> >
> > indeed xgrep and grep both have their uses... Regarding BWBASIC,
> > current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was small but
> > somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>
> Literally, I'm not aware of anybody using BWBasic in recent years at
> all. From limited experience, although I did try to play with it a
> bit, unfortunately I found it too buggy. Maybe somebody can correct
> me, but I wouldn't directly recommend it (as is).


So there won't be a 16-bit QBASIC/GW-BASIC/BASICA replacement?  I think
that is important to have.  Even if it is buggy.


> > It should not be a requirement to be 16-bit compatible when we
> > are looking at non-BASE packages. If there are 16-bit versions,
> > it is good to include them, but for example in case of NASM, I
> > would make 32-bit the default. It just works well on common PC.
>
> NASM 0.98.39 was the last to have a 16-bit build. At least JWasmR
> exists too, but that has its own quirks. So yes, normally the 32-bit
> versions are "good enough".
>

At least one 16-bit assembler should be included, even if it is limited to
8086 instruction set.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 1/22/2016 4:24 PM, Tom Ehlert wrote:



I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.

fine. we should look for a new boss with more time to care.
Now, if Jim were to willingly appoints someone else to take his place, 
that's a different story entirely, but I can't imagine a more 
appropriate person to be the "boss" since he is, after all, the 
*founder* of FreeDOS. It's not ours to pull his project out from under him.





what package for drivers?

maybe ask Jim


Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Louis Santillan wrote:

> So there won't be a 16-bit QBASIC/GW-BASIC/BASICA replacement?  I think
> that is important to have.  Even if it is buggy.

I wouldn't call Bywater a GWBASIC replacment, let alone a QBASIC 
replacement.

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

>> Well maybe it would also be nice to have some BASH, such
>> as the DJGPP one - both shell and script language... :-)

> Nah. Their Bash is ancient (2.05b), not well-supported by anyone
> anymore. Most DJGPP stuff mandatorily has to be cross-compiled
> anyways, for various reasons.

Still nice to have SOME bash! Newer versions add lots of
features that only advanced scripts would need anyway, a
phenomenon comparable to newer Office software packs ;-)

All DJGPP-compileable software for DOS involving me does
really compile with DJGPP in DOS, no cross-compiles :-)

DJGPP ports of eg Linux stuff to DOS work better with LFN.

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Ralf Quint]

On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was 
> small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>
>
Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in 
the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some 
shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...

Ralf

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Ralf Quint]

On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> Hi again, quick reply,
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
>>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
>>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...
>> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
>
Well, fix it. It's Open Source

Ralf

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

(dang it, Gmail keyboard shortcuts, accidentally sent too soon!)


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
>>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>>
>>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
>>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...
>>
>> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
>
> A quick check shows that it has had newer releases (from different
> dude), e.g. 2.61 and 3.00

... , so if anyone wants to compile a newer version, feel free. But
again, make sure it actually works with your code. Seriously, I can't
remember exactly, but it had some glaring bugs that just totally put
me off. Maybe I could reinvestigate it.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bwbasic/files/bwbasic/

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bwbasic/files/bwbasic/version%203.00/bwbasic-3.00.zip/download

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>>
>>   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was 
>> small but
>> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>>
> Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
> FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
> the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.

FreeBASIC is native and does run. Maybe some of the billions of
examples don't run due to third-party libraries. But it does (mostly)
work in pure DOS. But yes, you can also cross-compile (not that I've
tried).

> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...

IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.

What ever happened to your own home grown GWBASIC interpreter?

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi again, quick reply,

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>
>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...
>
> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.

A quick check shows that it has had newer releases (from different
dude), e.g. 2.61 and 3.00

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Tom Ehlert]

Hallo Herr Jerome E. Shidel Jr.,

am 22. Januar 2016 um 20:33 schrieben Sie:

> I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
> However, he stated that he wished to get FreeDOS 1.2 out the 
> door very soon. He did mention some reasons for getting it 
> released. But, I’m not going to go into them. 

> I see no reason why a beta release is not ready in the next
> few days-weeks. So, I highly recommend taking a look at the
> package list files and making any requests you may have for 
> additions or removals.

> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_ALL.LST

> Also, Option 1 in the FDCONFIG.SYS file that FDI creates has issues 
> with VirtualBOX. Someone who is more up to date on the memory 
> managers should do an install and take a look at the config files. Then,
> let me know what needs changed. Otherwise, It won’t get fixed.

> FDI status update:

> It is still finished. However, I just implemented a couple changes:

> Removed the XMGR
if YOU feel like it; seems you are the new boss here


> and UIDE packages.
that sounds like a very bad idea


regarding ALL:

ping, wget and possibly some more belong to the same package as mtcp,
but only make sense if you also install some package drivers.
same for rsync and curl


which is afaik included in command.com, at least the one I have

I'd put doslfn in the base package



Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  wrote:
>
> I see no reason why a beta release is not ready in the next
> few days-weeks. So, I highly recommend taking a look at the
> package list files and making any requests you may have for
> additions or removals.
>
> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST

"base/rdisk" and "util/udvd2"??

(probably both belong in "util\", but why listed at all in PKG_BASE.LST ??)

> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_ALL.LST

"; The remaining packages are only installed when ALL is chosen."

util\cwsdpmi
archiver\zip
archiver\unzip

I can't speak for Jim. For a minor point release like 1.2, he doesn't
want any major changes. But seriously, it's VERY hard to live without
these.

"; Some packages I would like to see in ALL."

(so you want more premade package .ZIPs from us?? or just
reclassification of where to put them??)

"util\grep" and "util\xgrep" (what's the difference?? 32-bit DJGPP version??)

util\less (386+ DJGPP unless you want ancient 16-bit GNUish version)

I assume it is practically recommend to use "util\pg" instead of "util\less".

util\tee
util\touch
util\which

Not sure how majorly useful these are for most people (e.g. I hardly
ever use them), but they wouldn't be hard to package up. Besides,
FreeCOM has a (limited, not as good) built-in "WHICH".

archiver\tar
archiver\gzip
archiver\bz2

I'm not understanding your ideas here. Are you not using Mateusz's
packages from "1.1/repos"? He already has these packaged.

Of course, tar and gzip must be ancient 16-bit versions, if you want
to be ultra compatible. bzip2 never had 16-bit builds, AFAIK. Anyways,
p7zip already supports all of those archive/compresion formats, and he
has a package for that as well.

devel\bwbasic
devel\bcc

These aren't extremely useful (plus fairly buggy) to most people.

> Also, Option 1 in the FDCONFIG.SYS file that FDI creates has issues
> with VirtualBOX. Someone who is more up to date on the memory
> managers should do an install and take a look at the config files. Then,
> let me know what needs changed. Otherwise, It won’t get fixed.

You mean JEMMEX? Just don't make it default at all, make "XMS only"
(HIMEMX) the default.

> A couple other minor things.
>
> I have tested the USB stick image as a hard drive and it works fine. However,
> I have no way at present to boot from a DOS formatted USB stick. So, I have
> not uploaded the USB version.

PLoP Boot Manager (via floppy [or other methods]) lets me boot a USB
on my "old" P4. You could try that:

https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html

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[Freedos-devel] FDI, updated

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

I forgot something in the old (10 minute ago release).
So, i just put up another FDI update.

http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest

Also, if someone wants to see if the USB stick image thingy works. 
(I have no way to boot it at present)

http://up.lod.bz/FDI-USB.zip





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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello Tom,

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Tom Ehlert  wrote:
> 
> Hallo Herr Jerome E. Shidel Jr.,
> 
> am 22. Januar 2016 um 20:33 schrieben Sie:
> 
>> I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
>> However, he stated that he wished to get FreeDOS 1.2 out the 
>> door very soon. He did mention some reasons for getting it 
>> released. But, I’m not going to go into them. 
> 
>> I see no reason why a beta release is not ready in the next
>> few days-weeks. So, I highly recommend taking a look at the
>> package list files and making any requests you may have for 
>> additions or removals.
> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_ALL.LST
> 
>> Also, Option 1 in the FDCONFIG.SYS file that FDI creates has issues 
>> with VirtualBOX. Someone who is more up to date on the memory 
>> managers should do an install and take a look at the config files. Then,
>> let me know what needs changed. Otherwise, It won’t get fixed.
> 
>> FDI status update:
> 
>> It is still finished. However, I just implemented a couple changes:
> 
>>Removed the XMGR
> if YOU feel like it; seems you are the new boss here
> 
> 
>>and UIDE packages.
> that sounds like a very bad idea

Well, I can be bossy, but usually I’m just really pushy. :-)

Jim said he wanted XMGR and UIDE pulled from the next release. 
I think it may be due to obscure legal reasons. But, you would have to
ask him. 

> 
> 
> regarding ALL:
> 
> ping, wget and possibly some more belong to the same package as mtcp,
> but only make sense if you also install some package drivers.
> same for rsync and curl

Ah, I didn’t realize ping was in mtcp. Pulled.
I don’t see wget in there, just htget.

what package for drivers?

> which is afaik included in command.com , at least the 
> one I have
> 
> I'd put doslfn in the base package

I thought base was supposed to be as close to MS-DOS as possible.
However, if Jim says OK, I will put it in there.

> 
> Tom
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Tom Ehlert  wrote:
>
> regarding ALL:
>
> ping, wget and possibly some more belong to the same package as mtcp,

Do you mean same group, e.g. "NET"? Because mTCP is explicitly
8086-friendly while (32-bit DJGPP) builds of GNU Wget are not.

> but only make sense if you also install some package drivers.
> same for rsync and curl

BTW, Michael Kostelev made some more recent builds of Wget and Curl,
if anyone wishes to try them:

http://mik.dyndns.pro/dos-stuff/bin/

There's also "../src", but I'm not exactly sure whether (or how
exactly, correctly) to mirror them for us just yet. These depend on
third-party libraries (not just Watt-32), so it's a bit confusing,
esp. since they aren't easy (for me) to rebuild from scratch.

Those might not be a good idea to include just yet.   :-(

> Ah, I didn’t realize ping was in mtcp. Pulled.
> I don’t see wget in there, just htget.
>
> what package for drivers?

I assume he means "packet" drivers, e.g. NE2000.COM or PCNTPK.COM.
(Note that not all Crynwr drivers are open source!)

> which is afaik included in command.com, at least the one I have

I don't know what this means.

> I'd put doslfn in the base package
>
> I thought base was supposed to be as close to MS-DOS as possible.
> However, if Jim says OK, I will put it in there.

I can't speak for him, but my opinion is that it should be separate.
Then again, if it's going on the .iso anyways 

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi,


I don't think Jim would be pleased to hear that. But I am a volunteer! :)

I dont know if that's a joke...

Why do I say this? I can give 2 reasons one is serious the other isnt.


the serious reason: Because I agree.

the non-serious reason: Because FreeDOS that's why!

probably this mail will be bad and I will be suspended... Why? Because it's
not nice what I say and so I am not mailing within the rules. But as I
already can't do the real FreeDOS dev part Because automaticly people
that look at MS-DOS (was needed for school) do add MS-DOS stuff. If you get
a copyright issue or something they don't care if you have those people.
What they do care about is if you really did violate copyright. Which
FreeDOS can't do because it's different from MS-DOS. And in this discussion
I heard we did have something as close to MS-DOS. So software chosen by
someone else from leadership is allowed to enter. But people do not. I do
not add MS-DOS source or ideas. It's not worth it. Also it's too simplistic
to say that everyone that gas looked at MS-DOS will add things from it.
Yes, it's to protect. Sure, but not like this. That reasoning is bad
because it's not true and you think for others! >:-(


as you may noticed I do not agree with the MS-DOS rules.

Maarten



Op vrijdag 22 januari 2016 heeft Tom Ehlert  het
volgende geschreven:

>
>
> > I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
> fine. we should look for a new boss with more time to care.
>
>
> > what package for drivers?
> maybe ask Jim
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Tom Ehlert]

> I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
fine. we should look for a new boss with more time to care.


> what package for drivers?
maybe ask Jim


Tom


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[Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
However, he stated that he wished to get FreeDOS 1.2 out the 
door very soon. He did mention some reasons for getting it 
released. But, I’m not going to go into them. 

I see no reason why a beta release is not ready in the next
few days-weeks. So, I highly recommend taking a look at the
package list files and making any requests you may have for 
additions or removals.

https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_ALL.LST

Also, Option 1 in the FDCONFIG.SYS file that FDI creates has issues 
with VirtualBOX. Someone who is more up to date on the memory 
managers should do an install and take a look at the config files. Then,
let me know what needs changed. Otherwise, It won’t get fixed.

FDI status update:

It is still finished. However, I just implemented a couple changes:

Removed the XMGR and UIDE packages.

Added a few other packages to the ALL package list.

Slightly improved batch file start up DOSDIR and TEMP dir 
detection and configuration. (when present)

Modified a couple lines in the installer. So, that regardless of what 
drive FDI installs to, the boot files are configured to be booting from 
drive C:.

Modified mkFDI to create both Floppy Installer Image for CD Media
and Hard disk image for USB stick installer.

Modified mkFDI to adjust some configuration stuff for different
installer images.

Updated FDI, so when booting from USB/HD image it assumes
default target for install is drive D: (config files will be set for C: 
booting)

A couple other minor things.

I have tested the USB stick image as a hard drive and it works fine. However,
I have no way at present to boot from a DOS formatted USB stick. So, I have 
not uploaded the USB version.

Latest FDI image: http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest

Jerome


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Tom, Maarten, Jerome and Rugxulo,

>> I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.

> fine. we should look for a new boss with more time to care.

Not THAT, permanently, busy - Jim is busy at the MOMENT with some
current news :-) Regarding Maarten's mail: No need for complicated
excuses... Simply don't send patches for kernel and command.com: At
least I am happy with your help such as translations or testing :-)

Actually it was Jack himself who suggested to remove XMGR and the
storage drivers. While the context may be complex, I agree that it
is better to use HIMEMX for XMS / HMA boot style and JEMMEX or, in
some cases better, a combine-with-HIMEM classic EMM386 driver for
EMS / UMB / XMS / HMA boot style. I also agree with Rugxulo that a
boot default should probably be only XMS / HMA. It is cool to have
UMB / EMS and it is cool to have virtual A20 by using EMM drivers,
but sometimes there are compatibility issues. So it should be user
choice to enable EMM drivers, not the default setting. Regarding
Jack's storage drivers: I like them and I see no reason to exclude
them, but it is a pity that there only is the choice between one
older version with sources and one newer but closed source version.

As the distro is trying to be completely open, it should probably
ship the older open drivers. It can still mention the newer branch.
In any case, I would NOT enable the storage drivers by default! On
many computers, they are not required and simply improve speed. As
the old version misses some bug fixes, users should be able to make
their own decision whether to use it. Some users even need to use a
storage driver due to BIOS bugs (see RayeR's UltraDMA BTTR thread),
at least when they want to use EMS.

I think it is safe to assume that "open and license-safe" are good
choices. Also it is safe to assume that "mimicks a MS DOS feature"
is a good reason to be in BASE. However, I think this can be seen
relaxed regarding drivers: If it mimicks a MS "DOS" 7 feature such
as LFN, it is useful to people who know "DOS" as part of Windows.

And if it is a driver for something that did not even exist when
MS DOS existed, such as USB or DVD drives, it should also be BASE
because using your hardware seems to be a basic thing for me. Of
course I would not make camera drivers base, because MS DOS never
shipped with video editing or chat software by default :-)

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  
> wrote:
>> 
>> I see no reason why a beta release is not ready in the next
>> few days-weeks. So, I highly recommend taking a look at the
>> package list files and making any requests you may have for
>> additions or removals.
>> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
> 
> "base/rdisk" and "util/udvd2”??

rdisk, because it was there before. (i think)
(but, the shsufdrv seems to work easier)

udvd2, for carom driver support. replacing uide.

> 
> (probably both belong in "util\", but why listed at all in PKG_BASE.LST ??)

(It’s where Mateusz has them on his repo)
(rdisk, ??, udvd2 for working cd/dvd drive, hopefully)

> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_ALL.LST
> 
> "; The remaining packages are only installed when ALL is chosen."
> 
> util\cwsdpmi
> archiver\zip
> archiver\unzip
> 
> I can't speak for Jim. For a minor point release like 1.2, he doesn't
> want any major changes. But seriously, it's VERY hard to live without
> these.
> 

Agreed.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  
> wrote:
>> 
>> I see no reason why a beta release is not ready in the next
>> few days-weeks. So, I highly recommend taking a look at the
>> package list files and making any requests you may have for
>> additions or removals.
>> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
> 
> "base/rdisk" and "util/udvd2"??
> 
> (probably both belong in "util\", but why listed at all in PKG_BASE.LST ??)
> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_ALL.LST
> 
> "; The remaining packages are only installed when ALL is chosen."
> 
> util\cwsdpmi
> archiver\zip
> archiver\unzip
> 
> I can't speak for Jim. For a minor point release like 1.2, he doesn't
> want any major changes. But seriously, it's VERY hard to live without
> these.
> 
> "; Some packages I would like to see in ALL."
> 
> (so you want more premade package .ZIPs from us?? or just
> reclassification of where to put them??)

That section is basically just the packages I felt should be also installed 
when 
“ALL” is chosen. 

> 
> "util\grep" and "util\xgrep" (what's the difference?? 32-bit DJGPP version??)

Someone mentions, why not xgrep too. Pulled.

> 
> util\less (386+ DJGPP unless you want ancient 16-bit GNUish version)
> 
> I assume it is practically recommend to use "util\pg" instead of "util\less".
> 
> util\tee
> util\touch
> util\which
> 
> Not sure how majorly useful these are for most people (e.g. I hardly
> ever use them), but they wouldn't be hard to package up. Besides,
> FreeCOM has a (limited, not as good) built-in "WHICH".
> 
> archiver\tar
> archiver\gzip
> archiver\bz2
> 
> I'm not understanding your ideas here. Are you not using Mateusz's
> packages from "1.1/repos"? He already has these packaged.

The installer uses packages from Mateusz’s repo. At present, I intend 
the installer to keep the same packages in the same places as his
all_cd.iso. However, the FreeDOS 1.2 release won’t contain all
of the packages that he provides. This would provide compatibility
between the two sources for packages. Mateusz’s disc image is 
currently about 500mb. I think the Official FreeDOS release should
be under 100mb.

> 
> Of course, tar and gzip must be ancient 16-bit versions, if you want
> to be ultra compatible. bzip2 never had 16-bit builds, AFAIK. Anyways,
> p7zip already supports all of those archive/compresion formats, and he
> has a package for that as well.
> 
> devel\bwbasic
> devel\bcc
> 
> These aren't extremely useful (plus fairly buggy) to most people.

Someone requested basic and c, I will remove them.

> 
>> Also, Option 1 in the FDCONFIG.SYS file that FDI creates has issues
>> with VirtualBOX. Someone who is more up to date on the memory
>> managers should do an install and take a look at the config files. Then,
>> let me know what needs changed. Otherwise, It won’t get fixed.
> 
> You mean JEMMEX? Just don't make it default at all, make "XMS only"
> (HIMEMX) the default.
> 
>>A couple other minor things.
>> 
>> I have tested the USB stick image as a hard drive and it works fine. However,
>> I have no way at present to boot from a DOS formatted USB stick. So, I have
>> not uploaded the USB version.
> 
> PLoP Boot Manager (via floppy [or other methods]) lets me boot a USB
> on my "old" P4. You could try that:
> 
> https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html 
> 

I’m traveling again and won’t be home for a week or so. Currently, I only
have my Mac and It won’t boot a drive partition for Dos. VMware fusion and
Virtual Box won’t simulate boot from USB. When I get home, if I have the time,
I will test it on the a couple machines.

> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>
> "util\grep" and "util\xgrep" (what's the difference?? 32-bit DJGPP
> version??)
>
> Someone mentions, why not xgrep too. Pulled.

Well, neither is 100% compatible with each other. Xgrep is extremely
small and 16-bit, but DJGPP's GNU grep is much more robust (but bigger
and 386+ only). We just have to decide whether to have both or only
one or neither (or something else?).

I do think Xgrep is very useful, far better than nothing. I actually
use it a lot. My point was that "maybe" we don't need both (by
default).

> devel\bwbasic
> devel\bcc
>
> These aren't extremely useful (plus fairly buggy) to most people.
>
> Someone requested basic and c, I will remove them.

Well, we already have FreeBASIC and OpenWatcom, which (despite 386+)
are more robust than the above. Unless you're going for extreme 16-bit
host support, then I don't see a point. And even then, like I said,
they are somewhat buggy. Not horrible, but weak, all things
considered. Maybe better than nothing, but nobody heavily uses them
(if at all) for any major (or minor) FreeDOS projects, AFAIK.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Rugxulo et al,

indeed xgrep and grep both have their uses... Regarding BWBASIC,
current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was small but
somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.

Note that the modern compilers (OpenWatcom, FPC (Pascal), Free-
BASIC, DJGPP and so on) are rather large, so I am glad that they
are not part of BASE ;-) And do not forget NASM and JWASM... :-)

What do you mean by BCC? The Borland Museum compiler? That one
is license-wise not suitable for distribution, although Borland
at some point offered it as free download. You can compare that
to the Microsoft essential font package: You cannot ship it with
Linux distros, but you can ship a tool which makes it easy for
users to download them directly from Microsoft after reviewing
and accepting the license.

It should not be a requirement to be 16-bit compatible when we
are looking at non-BASE packages. If there are 16-bit versions,
it is good to include them, but for example in case of NASM, I
would make 32-bit the default. It just works well on common PC.

>> devel\bwbasic
>> devel\bcc
>>
>> These aren't extremely useful (plus fairly buggy) to most people.
>>
>> Someone requested basic and c, I will remove them.
> 
> Well, we already have FreeBASIC and OpenWatcom, which (despite 386+)
> are more robust than the above. Unless you're going for extreme 16-bit

Looking at the complete list here:

http://freedos.sourceforge.net/software/?cat=devel

Anybody still using VAL, SmallBASIC, BASEC, YASM? S-LANG anybody?
I remember REXX was liked by DOS users? I guess PACIFIC-C should
be dropped (closed source). FASM, WASM and JWASM all have fans. Is
CC386 popular? Cute to see that there now is a new Forth compiler!

Cheers, Eric

PS: Dropped as in "not included in the ISO", listing on www is fine.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Maarten Vermeulen  wrote:
>
> as you may noticed I do not agree with the MS-DOS rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
> Hi Rugxulo et al,
>
> indeed xgrep and grep both have their uses... Regarding BWBASIC,
> current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.

Literally, I'm not aware of anybody using BWBasic in recent years at
all. From limited experience, although I did try to play with it a
bit, unfortunately I found it too buggy. Maybe somebody can correct
me, but I wouldn't directly recommend it (as is).

> Note that the modern compilers (OpenWatcom, FPC (Pascal), Free-
> BASIC, DJGPP and so on) are rather large, so I am glad that they
> are not part of BASE ;-) And do not forget NASM and JWASM... :-)

Maybe we should repackage the FPC.ZIP to use LZMA?? It's certainly
(too) large. I think the extra decompression RAM is probably justified
since the package itself presumably uses a fair few MB.

> What do you mean by BCC? The Borland Museum compiler?

No, actually I'm pretty sure this one is bcc/dev86 (Bruce's C
compiler). But even that has bugs and limitations that makes it less
than ideal (although not too bad overall, just much weaker than
OpenWatcom, for example).

> It should not be a requirement to be 16-bit compatible when we
> are looking at non-BASE packages. If there are 16-bit versions,
> it is good to include them, but for example in case of NASM, I
> would make 32-bit the default. It just works well on common PC.

NASM 0.98.39 was the last to have a 16-bit build. At least JWasmR
exists too, but that has its own quirks. So yes, normally the 32-bit
versions are "good enough".

> Looking at the complete list here:
>
> http://freedos.sourceforge.net/software/?cat=devel
>
> Anybody still using VAL,

Maybe Micro-C dude, but I haven't heard anything from him in years.

> SmallBASIC, BASEC,

No.

> YASM?

NASM compatible, supposedly faster, halfway recommended by SmallerC dude.

> S-LANG anybody?

Not directly. Doesn't DOSEMU use that? So does JED (although none of
us ever finalized a public build of that). Not much else, AFAIK.

> I remember REXX was liked by DOS users?

Not at all (unless you mean PC-DOS 7, which I doubt). Maybe you meant
OS/2? Sure, I've dabbled very very lightly in Rexx, but I don't see
anyone else caring, certainly not the Regina dude (hence why we're
still stuck to 3.7 when latest is 3.91). The makefile.dj2 had somewhat
bitrotted, last I checked, but I was never patient enough (yet?) to
diff the versions.

> I guess PACIFIC-C should be dropped (closed source).

I think Jim had wanted to drop it, yes. Of course, I'm not aware of
any obvious projects (still?) using it anyways. OpenWatcom is
presumably much better (overall).

Anyways, the online Software List is in "read-only" mode for the past
few months now (since Jim is too busy to fix it), so I can't remove it
anyways (not that it's hugely important).

> FASM, WASM and JWASM all have fans.

WASM as in Wolfware? Not really popular, no. I'm not aware of anyone
using it in any projects.

> Is CC386 popular?

Not really, no, but it's still fairly nice. Of course, it's abandoned
in favor of Orange C (which is Win32 or HX hosted only).

> Cute to see that there now is a new Forth compiler!

That was a year or so ago when somebody (Zbignew?) requested adding one.

> PS: Dropped as in "not included in the ISO", listing on www is fine.

Of course.

The .iso for 2.0 should presumably be extra minimal, just for purists,
perhaps like "core", and bigger .iso versions can be added later
("extended"). Maybe.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi,

I didn't even know BWBasic was somewhere. I searched long times for something 
about basic (in the time I liked basic) but couldn't find anything. I am a fan 
of NASM so I wouldn't agree to remove it, but I would agree to add it.. :)

To get it right, we have it about removing/adding compilers?

Maarten

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Rugxulo" <rugx...@gmail.com>
Verzonden: ‎23-‎1-‎2016 00:59
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Eric Auer <e.a...@jpberlin.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Rugxulo et al,
>
> indeed xgrep and grep both have their uses... Regarding BWBASIC,
> current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.

Literally, I'm not aware of anybody using BWBasic in recent years at
all. From limited experience, although I did try to play with it a
bit, unfortunately I found it too buggy. Maybe somebody can correct
me, but I wouldn't directly recommend it (as is).

> Note that the modern compilers (OpenWatcom, FPC (Pascal), Free-
> BASIC, DJGPP and so on) are rather large, so I am glad that they
> are not part of BASE ;-) And do not forget NASM and JWASM... :-)

Maybe we should repackage the FPC.ZIP to use LZMA?? It's certainly
(too) large. I think the extra decompression RAM is probably justified
since the package itself presumably uses a fair few MB.

> What do you mean by BCC? The Borland Museum compiler?

No, actually I'm pretty sure this one is bcc/dev86 (Bruce's C
compiler). But even that has bugs and limitations that makes it less
than ideal (although not too bad overall, just much weaker than
OpenWatcom, for example).

> It should not be a requirement to be 16-bit compatible when we
> are looking at non-BASE packages. If there are 16-bit versions,
> it is good to include them, but for example in case of NASM, I
> would make 32-bit the default. It just works well on common PC.

NASM 0.98.39 was the last to have a 16-bit build. At least JWasmR
exists too, but that has its own quirks. So yes, normally the 32-bit
versions are "good enough".

> Looking at the complete list here:
>
> http://freedos.sourceforge.net/software/?cat=devel
>
> Anybody still using VAL,

Maybe Micro-C dude, but I haven't heard anything from him in years.

> SmallBASIC, BASEC,

No.

> YASM?

NASM compatible, supposedly faster, halfway recommended by SmallerC dude.

> S-LANG anybody?

Not directly. Doesn't DOSEMU use that? So does JED (although none of
us ever finalized a public build of that). Not much else, AFAIK.

> I remember REXX was liked by DOS users?

Not at all (unless you mean PC-DOS 7, which I doubt). Maybe you meant
OS/2? Sure, I've dabbled very very lightly in Rexx, but I don't see
anyone else caring, certainly not the Regina dude (hence why we're
still stuck to 3.7 when latest is 3.91). The makefile.dj2 had somewhat
bitrotted, last I checked, but I was never patient enough (yet?) to
diff the versions.

> I guess PACIFIC-C should be dropped (closed source).

I think Jim had wanted to drop it, yes. Of course, I'm not aware of
any obvious projects (still?) using it anyways. OpenWatcom is
presumably much better (overall).

Anyways, the online Software List is in "read-only" mode for the past
few months now (since Jim is too busy to fix it), so I can't remove it
anyways (not that it's hugely important).

> FASM, WASM and JWASM all have fans.

WASM as in Wolfware? Not really popular, no. I'm not aware of anyone
using it in any projects.

> Is CC386 popular?

Not really, no, but it's still fairly nice. Of course, it's abandoned
in favor of Orange C (which is Win32 or HX hosted only).

> Cute to see that there now is a new Forth compiler!

That was a year or so ago when somebody (Zbignew?) requested adding one.

> PS: Dropped as in "not included in the ISO", listing on www is fine.

Of course.

The .iso for 2.0 should presumably be extra minimal, just for purists,
perhaps like "core", and bigger .iso versions can be added later
("extended"). Maybe.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sat, 23 Jan 2016, Eric Auer wrote:

> What are the ins and outs of Bruce C? Any pointers to an
> earlier DOS thread about it? Have not seen it in the LSM
> software list on freedos.org as far as I remember?

I think it's a simple, pre-ANSI, small-model only compiler?

> Actually I did mean PC DOS, it shipped with REXX, unless
> I confused that bundling with OS/2. It is alledgedly a
> stronger language than BAT and 4DOS. May be nice to have.

I *think* PC DOS at least 7.x has REXX?

> Well maybe it would also be nice to have some BASH, such
> as the DJGPP one - both shell and script language... :-)

There's the ksh in Gnuish, but it's not technically open source because 
"can't be used commercially"...

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
> whether to repackage FPC using LZMA depends on whether
> it would unpack with the same hardware requirements that
> FPC has anyway and whether it really makes a difference.
> I could imagine that other files apart from the EXE take
> much of the space in FPC installations...

Most of it is probably program/unit sources.

> What are the ins and outs of Bruce C? Any pointers to an
> earlier DOS thread about it? Have not seen it in the LSM
> software list on freedos.org as far as I remember?

Somebody else had mirrored this (however incomplete) a long long time ago:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/devel/c/bcc/old/oldold/

Even somebody (deBath?) had made a limited old 16-bit compile of it
with MSC or such, so that's here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/devel/c/bcc/old/16bit/

It's very weak though (no copt?), and I compiled unproto myself
(needed for "-ansi"), as well as (cross-)compiled doselks (which isn't
needed for native anyways).

Then I tried to make a DJGPP-hosted version (which barely worked due
to *nix file hierarchy issues).

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/devel/c/bcc/old/

Eventually, IIRC, Khusraw rebuilt it himself with DJGPP to work better
natively, so I mirrored that for us too.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/devel/c/bcc/

I don't know Mateusz's reasons for even being curious about it, and
IIRC I had never discussed it with him either (not that there's much
to say). Steve is (almost) right, it's not quite "ANSI" but it does
support tiny and small models (thus .COM output only, for DOS). So
it's obviously not suitable for "compact" model code (e.g. FD kernel).

> Is Smaller C dude = Micro C dude?

Alexei vs. Dave, so no.   :-)

> Any other YASM users?

Maybe?? I mean, I don't know of any obvious DOS users, but some other
projects use it.

> WASM as in OpenWatcom ASM, also origin of the JWASM fork.

That's not what this is (although JWasm has its own entry):

http://freedos.sourceforge.net/software/?prog=wasm

http://freedos.sourceforge.net/software/?prog=jwasm

> Actually I did mean PC DOS, it shipped with REXX, unless
> I confused that bundling with OS/2. It is alledgedly a
> stronger language than BAT and 4DOS. May be nice to have.

Anything is stronger than .BAT. But even 4DOS isn't really considered
a "full" scripting language, is it? But anyways, our build of Regina
(386+) doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles, thus no loading
external .so files or anything. So it's still fairly limited to
relatively simplistic code (that doesn't directly access hardware
internals). Like I said, he doesn't even build for DOS anymore, so
apparently "nobody" uses it.

> Well maybe it would also be nice to have some BASH, such
> as the DJGPP one - both shell and script language... :-)

Nah. Their Bash is ancient (2.05b), not well-supported by anyone
anymore. Most DJGPP stuff mandatorily has to be cross-compiled
anyways, for various reasons.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Rugxulo,

whether to repackage FPC using LZMA depends on whether
it would unpack with the same hardware requirements that
FPC has anyway and whether it really makes a difference.
I could imagine that other files apart from the EXE take
much of the space in FPC installations...

What are the ins and outs of Bruce C? Any pointers to an
earlier DOS thread about it? Have not seen it in the LSM
software list on freedos.org as far as I remember?

Note that in some cases, sources might be meant to be
used with older NASM major versions, so why not provide
that 0.98 version for those who like to work on 286 or
who have source codes meant to compile on 0.98 :-)

Is Smaller C dude = Micro C dude? Any other YASM users?
WASM as in OpenWatcom ASM, also origin of the JWASM fork.

Actually I did mean PC DOS, it shipped with REXX, unless
I confused that bundling with OS/2. It is alledgedly a
stronger language than BAT and 4DOS. May be nice to have.

Well maybe it would also be nice to have some BASH, such
as the DJGPP one - both shell and script language... :-)

Cheers, Eric



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[Freedos-devel] FDI

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

I did a little tweaking and stuff to FDI. So, I just released latest image. 

Mostly, this was adding the ability to remove the install media before 
doing the reboot. Also, if FDINST is installed, an appropriate config file for 
it
is also now included. (Same as the OS install: Binaries only or with Sources)

http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest 

Remember FDI is done. So, think of it like a good Pie. Once it is cooked, 
don’t leave it in the oven to long or it well be over done. ;-)

Oh, still would like the NL, ES, EO and FR translations for the reboot message.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Translations

[Paul Dufresne]

Translating it in french is easy:
"Enlevez le média d'installation puis pressez une touche pour
redémarrer le système, sinon tapez CTRL-C pour sortir."
What's hard is edit the translation file and retest it. ;)

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Nice!
I waited for it because it wasn't really clear for me. With that specific mail 
you could mean that you wanted that to be in the translation files (we had to 
add it to those files) or do it with the mail. :) waited for what other people 
did first.

Maarten

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Jerome E. Shidel Jr." <jer...@shidel.net>
Verzonden: ‎15-‎1-‎2016 22:59
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI

I did a little tweaking and stuff to FDI. So, I just released latest image. 

Mostly, this was adding the ability to remove the install media before 
doing the reboot. Also, if FDINST is installed, an appropriate config file for 
it
is also now included. (Same as the OS install: Binaries only or with Sources)

http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest 

Remember FDI is done. So, think of it like a good Pie. Once it is cooked, 
don’t leave it in the oven to long or it well be over done. ;-)

Oh, still would like the NL, ES, EO and FR translations for the reboot message.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Translations

[Maarten Vermeulen]

In dutch:

"Verwijder de installatie media uit het station en druk op een toets om opnieuw 
op te starten of op CRTL+C om setup te sluiten"

I made some adjustments to that sentence:
- remove installation media from the station (but then in dutch)
- press CTRL+C to exit setup (but then in dutch)

My goal with those adjustments (see above) is to make clear what to remove and 
what to exit. :)

Maarten

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Jerome E. Shidel Jr." <jer...@shidel.net>
Verzonden: ‎15-‎1-‎2016 00:14
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: [Freedos-devel] FDI Translations

Hello again,

I just made some changes to V8Power Tools so the user can remove the install 
media before FDI does a system reboot.

So, I would like to get the following translated into all the appropriate 
languages. (ES, EO, FR, NL & DE)
Once again, rewording is fine.

Remove the installation media and press a key to restart the system or press 
CTRL+C to exit.

Thanks in advance,

Jerome
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[Freedos-devel] FDI Translations

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello again,

I just made some changes to V8Power Tools so the user can remove the install 
media before FDI does a system reboot.

So, I would like to get the following translated into all the appropriate 
languages. (ES, EO, FR, NL & DE)
Once again, rewording is fine.

Remove the installation media and press a key to restart the system or press 
CTRL+C to exit.

Thanks in advance,

Jerome
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[Freedos-devel] FDI updated.

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Thanks to Maarten, I found out that there was a compatibility issue in 
VirtualBox 
with the 186+ High Precision Interrupt Timer used by the V8Power Tool vdelay 
utility.

The delay is used to prevent messages from flicker on/off the screen and having 
a user go “what did that say?” 

Basically, using the timer would just cause the Installer to freeze.

Anyhow, the compatibility issue in vdelay has been resolved.

So even no no changes were made to FDI, there is a new FDI Preview 9 release 
to resolve the VirtualBox compatibility issue available at 
http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

Just to state the obvious here:

Tom is indeed "Deutsch", he's Donald Drumpf's cousin, the Grumpf!   ;-)

(No worries, Maarten.)


On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Maarten Vermeulen <netraa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But I have a one of question.
> 1) are you dutch
> If no, this is a littlebit too exaggerated, please in an email do not
> (especially this sort) do like that it's just fun.
>
> If you are dutch, I can understand being that angry. If not I find it
> exaggerated. It's no harm to anyone.
>
> Again sorry, I was confused with something.
>
> Maarten
> 
> Van: Tom Ehlert
> Verzonden: ‎24-‎12-‎2015 21:39
> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
> Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations
>
>>>  I was going to ramble about a lot of things. First of all, King
>>>  Willem-Alexander is related to the British monarchs, right?
>
>> Could be, but I hate him. Yes, I as his citizen hate him. He gets
>> as 'pocket money' 27 million (USD $29,593,701.00) per week!
>
> by all references I could find this number is *ridicously* wrong.
>
> please cite your sources for such claims, or stop posting it.
>
> I don't like kings and kingdoms either, but I hate bulls**t.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations

[Maarten Vermeulen]

And I hate him (the royal orange, king) for multiple reasons. 

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Maarten Vermeulen" <netraa...@gmail.com>
Verzonden: ‎24-‎12-‎2015 22:22
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 
<freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: RE: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations

Well sorry then, it was +- 16000. I was confused with a palace they wanted to 
get that money from.

But he did get some money of 27 million for something different then a palace.

But I have a one of question.
1) are you dutch
If no, this is a littlebit too exaggerated, please in an email do not 
(especially this sort) do like that it's just fun.



I don't talk bullshit, I was confused. Can happen right? 
His starting money (or something that way) was €27 million. It was all over the 
news.
If you are dutch, I can understand being that angry. If not I find it 
exaggerated. It's no harm to anyone. 


Again sorry, I was confused with something.

Maarten


Van: Tom Ehlert
Verzonden: ‎24-‎12-‎2015 21:39
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations


>>  I was going to ramble about a lot of things. First of all, King
>>  Willem-Alexander is related to the British monarchs, right?



> Could be, but I hate him. Yes, I as his citizen hate him. He gets
> as 'pocket money' 27 million (USD $29,593,701.00) per week!

by all references I could find this number is *ridicously* wrong.

please cite your sources for such claims, or stop posting it.

I don't like kings and kingdoms either, but I hate bullshit.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations

[Mercury Thirteen]

What? You mean you are only human and make mistakes? Well geez, no 
wonder Tom took issue with you...


lol  ;)

On 12/24/2015 4:22 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:
Well sorry then, it was +- 16000. I was confused with a palace they 
wanted to get that money from.


But he did get some money of 27 million for something different then a 
palace.


But I have a one of question.
1) are you dutch
If no, this is a littlebit too exaggerated, please in an email do not 
(especially this sort) do like that it's just fun.




I don't talk bullshit, I was confused. Can happen right?
His starting money (or something that way) was €27 million. It was all 
over the news.
If you are dutch, I can understand being that angry. If not I find it 
exaggerated. It's no harm to anyone.



Again sorry, I was confused with something.

Maarten

Van: Tom Ehlert <mailto:t...@drivesnapshot.de>
Verzonden: ‎24-‎12-‎2015 21:39
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers. 
<mailto:freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>

Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations

>>  I was going to ramble about a lot of things. First of all, King
>>  Willem-Alexander is related to the British monarchs, right?



> Could be, but I hate him. Yes, I as his citizen hate him. He gets
> as 'pocket money' 27 million (USD $29,593,701.00) per week!

by all references I could find this number is *ridicously* wrong.

please cite your sources for such claims, or stop posting it.

I don't like kings and kingdoms either, but I hate bullshit.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI Language Translations

[Rugxulo]

Hallo,

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen  wrote:
>
> 2015-12-24 20:31 GMT+01:00 Rugxulo :
>>
>> I was going to ramble about a lot of things. First of all, King
>> Willem-Alexander is related to the British monarchs, right?
>
> Could be, but I hate him. Yes, I as his citizen hate him.
> He gets that money from our taxes, and he doesn't have to pay taxes.

Well, doesn't everybody hate their government leaders?? Certainly the
U.S. is no exception. Better to ignore the vitriol (which is almost
all lies) from the press. Even comedy, when dealing with politics, can
become tiresome. (I'm apolitical, I try to avoid it all, but it still
annoys me. They really overexaggerate everything. I'm sure you've
heard of Trump [Drumpf, a German name]. The press literally loves to
hate him. They refuse to just ignore literally any little snippet he
says. It's very tiring. BTW, the election is *still* roughly a year
away, ugh. I'm already fed up.)

Regarding taxes, please don't take this the wrong way, but aren't you
too young to pay taxes anyways?  ;-)  So don't worry. Besides, even
the U.K. is infamous for being high on taxes. Many famous people were
tax exiles due to that. And even the Queen (now) allegedly pays taxes.
(Honestly, I don't follow such boring political stuff, I'm more
interested in linguistics, only barely.) The whole U.S. revolution
was, in part, due to high taxes (which aren't so low here anymore
either).

I just find it funny how it's all related (people, languages, etc).

>> Although I hate politics, did you know that the eighth U.S. president
>> was Martin Van Buren? (Wikipedia says he was born in New York,
>> baptized as "Maarten"! Also, "most of the townsfolk, including the Van
>> Burens, spoke Dutch at home"!)
>
> No, I didn't know that.
> My country (Netherlands, of course) is usually known in the U.S. as 'soft
> drugs are allowed' and I heard something about 'being drunk is allowed'.
> Yes, soft drugs are allowed and being drunk is allowed but of course you
> aren't allowed to drive at that moment (wait 1 hour for 1 bear). LONG LIVE
> EDUCATION!!!

Like I said, that one t.v. show (for kids) said Gouda cheese and
windmills. Of course, I can buy imported Gouda, but I'll never see a
windmill, so I find that strange to mention. Otherwise, what else
could we know? Art? Van Gogh. Computers? Python (Van Rossum). Music?
Van Halen (my fav). Actress? Famke Janssen (X-Men). Honestly, I never
spent more than two seconds thinking about President Van Buren (long
since dead). Then again, things like Old English fascinate me, even if
I never bothered to learn it (and I presume modern Dutch is closer to
modern English than it is to that!).

Oh, I almost forgot, UEA is located in the .nl, but I never became an
official member or anything (only E-USA and some EU-based
periodicals): http://www.uea.org/

> Here are some things that you amaricans probably find strange:
> http://www.weekendnotes.com/interesting-facts-about-netherlands/
>
>> So yes, it's a small world.
>
> Indeed :)

It's a strange paradox: things converge and diverge seemingly at
random. One guy (regarding programming languages) even mentioned the
word "balkanization". It's strange how nobody can get along (but so
many so-called united groups/organizations exist).

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[Freedos-devel] FDI Preview 9

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

FreeDOS Installer Preview 9, now ready.

http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest

I updated the language translations, Thanks again.

Increased performance and reduced code for the Language Options Screen. By,
spending some time working on the install media build utility mkFDI. This 
reduced
the need for multiple calls to vecho for displaying each language on the screen.
That was getting a little slow to cycle through them. 

A little bit of other language handling and fine tuning. 

A couple other things to reduce some env usage and complexity without 
sacrificing 
any flexibility.
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