[Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the testosterone)
Hi Lawry,
At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote:
Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment on how Perle
handled himself? Energy and body language?
Thanks,
L
Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the mist, I've been
thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David Dimbleby's TV programmes
in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited some of the
highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. On two occasions on
ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one on BBC (60 minute programme),
Perle has been the main protagonist speaking (long-distance video) from
America while the expert platform interlocutors (except for Dimbleby
himself) have been different at this end in each programme. I might also
say that a great deal of care must have gone into the selection of the
studio audiences. As far as I could judge, the most recent one fairly
represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split in England. There were also several
brilliant expert speakers seated on the front row of the audience. Perle
was equal to any of them, audience or platform, except on a couple of
occasions (more later).
(Incidentally, let me illustrate my comment from yesterday about the
testosterone effect. A week ago, the opposition to Blair's support for
Bush was at around 65% in this country. A YouGov (Internet-based) poll from
couple of days ago gave a 60/40 split. During yesterday's Dimbleby
programme, a phone-in vote gave a 55/45 split. I think if a poll were taken
later on today or tomorrow morning [assuming that Bush declares war then] I
would guess that a poll would show a 50/50 or even a 45/55 split in favour
of war. This rapidly shifting opinion of about 20% is due, to my mind, to
the credulous portion of the male population who are now being carried away
by the excitement of events. However, I think this trend will reverse
itself when women start expressing themselves more forcefully in the coming
weeks if there are large/gruesome fatalities among the Iraqi civilians.)
(And now may I diverge just one more time before I discuss Perle in
particular? Here's a little bit about the neuropsychology of body language.
Most people are now aware that an individual being questioned will give
away his state of stress by involuntary movements. For example, TV
camerapeople have long ago cottoned onto this by giving shots of
interlocutors' bobbing foot movements when individuals are lying -- or the
darting hand scratching the back of the head, or ears, or nose. What is not
widely known, though, is that the motor strip of the brain which transmits
muscle movement commands [both voluntary and involuntary] is far from being
proportionate to the layout of the body. In short, there are relatively few
nerves running to and from most of the body -- feet, back, legs, arms, etc
-- but a very large number from the face (particularly in and around the
mouth) and hands (particularly fingertips). In terms of numbers of brain
cells involved, the nerve control (or lack of control under stress) of the
mouth and fingers comprise 45% of all body movements. Thus, if you want to
relax, it is stupid and time-consuming to go through all the systematic
procedures that physiotherapists tell you to do [usually starting with
one's toes -- which have hardly any nerve endings!]. You can short-circuit
the whole tedious business by allowing one's mouth, lips and tongue to
relax [when your mouth will moisten slightly] and one's fingers and
fingertips. You can achieve mental relaxation in two or three seconds flat.
Conversely, get those two areas under control and you're in charge, and not
the interlocutor. Believe me, Perle knows this well!)
Perle faces the camera directly with his elbows on a suitable level of desk
or table, his forearms flat and one palm resting upon the other. You can
see nothing else. His hands never move. His face is almost immobile. His
mouth is relaxed, almost smiling when he's not talking. He is in perfect
control. The other interesting feature of Perle under questioning is that
he always delays his replies. There's a perceptible delay of about two or
three seconds before replying to any question, tricky or otherwise (after
all, how does one know whether a simple question might not be tricky until
it's examined carefully!). This mode of response is very rare among
intellectuals (and is not usually necessary) because they usually fire-off
replies quicker than the average person ('cos their brains are faster) but
this can get them into trouble quite often. (The ex-UK-UN ambassador I
mentioned yesterday had also acquired this habit of delayed responses.)
This may seem a trivial piece of behaviour but it's extremely important
because a delay dampens down one's immediate emotional reaction and allows
sufficient time for rationalisation.
So there you are! I have never seen anyone on TV who's under such control.
Perle seems perfectly relaxed. He smiles fairly frequently -- butter
wouldn't melt in his mouth. His voice is
Re: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff!
Ray, You said: Good questions Harry but your knowledge of one element throws doubt on your whole argument.It is a well documented fact and I have posted to the list documentation from several news sources that Sadaam invaded Kuwait BECAUSE he had been driven bankrupt by the war with Iran where he served as a surrogate for the US. As I wrote to Keith a day or so ago: Another point, not often mentioned, is the economic condition of Iraq after the war with Iran. It was a basket case. Perhaps the invasion of Kuwait had no other purpose than to fill Saddam's piggy-bank. You say a surrogate for the US. Yet, Saddam's modern weapons were supplied by the Soviets in quantities. That is tanks, planes, and helicopter gun-ships. The French sold him 30 Mirage fighters armed with Exocets (those highly effective missiles used by Argentina against the Royal Navy. That was for the Tanker War that sent many ships to the bottom. Iraq used MiG-21s and MiG -23s, T-55 tanks and T-62 tanks, BM-21 Stalin Organ rocket launchers, and Mi-24 helicopter gunships. Did you say our surrogate? You've been reading too much propaganda. Actually, Iran used F-4 Phantoms, F5s, and a few F-14s to do a lot of damage inside Iraq. The US gave Iran a shipload or two of arms - I suspect mostly spare parts for their American weapons - but the Iraqis used modern Soviet arms. Oh, yes, Ollie brokered a deal via the Israelis to supply them with out-of-date Tow Missiles - but that's another story. Iraq used chemicals some 40 times against Iran (Iran claims). UN experts checked, found Iraq guilty and the UN, in 1986, told him to stop it. He did stop it until 1988 when he used chemicals against the Kurds, those in Iraq on the border with Iran. Those two guys who wrote the article diminished his culpability (and the number of casualties in the war). I prefer the conclusion of Dr. Phebe Marr , who stated that the war was more immediately the result of poor political judgement and miscalculation on the part of Saddam Hussein, and the decision to invade, taken at a moment of Iranian weakness, was Saddam's. (Look her up on Google if you wonder who she is.) Saddam had agents in Khuzestan inciting riots and suchlike. They expected the 5 million or so Arabs to rise against Teheran. Instead, the joined with the Iranian troops to fight the Iraqis. The Iraqis expected to take Khuzestan, a large province - which doesn't much confirm the Terrible Twosome's assertion that Saddam just wanted to take a small part of Iran - to perhaps make a statement. He smashed weak Iranian opposition and plunged ahead. The Iranians freed the jailed pilots and called upon the poor to help the army fight the invading Iraqis. Thus began the horror of human wave attacks by poorly armed people from 9 to 50. (Some carried shrouds with them for their almost certain death.) But, they stopped the Iraqis - over-running their encampments - and drove them back to the border, where the stalemated slaughter continued over the 8 years of war. When Saddam makes a mistake, he makes a real big one. Harry -- Ray wrote: Good questions Harry but your knowledge of one element throws doubt on your whole argument.It is a well documented fact and I have posted to the list documentation from several news sources that Sadaam invaded Kuwait BECAUSE he had been driven bankrupt by the war with Iran where he served as a surrogate for the US. Also he asked the US Ambassador to explore the US policy with regard to invading Kuwait BEFORE he did it. The Ambassador said that America would have no problem with it. Once again, a careful look shows Saddam was neither mindlessly aggressive nor particularly reckless. If anything, the evidence supports the opposite conclusion. Saddam's decision to invade Kuwait was primarily an attempt to deal with Iraq's continued vulnerability. Iraq's economy, badly damaged by its war with Iran, continued to decline after that war ended. An important cause of Iraq's difficulties was Kuwait's refusal both to loan Iraq $10 billion and to write off debts Iraq had incurred during the Iran-Iraq War. Saddam believed Iraq was entitled to additional aid because the country helped protect Kuwait and other Gulf states from Iranian expansionism. To make matters worse, Kuwait was overproducing the quotas set by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, which drove down world oil prices and reduced Iraqi oil profits. Saddam tried using diplomacy to solve the problem, but Kuwait hardly budged. As Karsh and fellow Hussein biographer Inari Rautsi note, the Kuwaitis suspected that some concessions might be necessary, but were determined to reduce them to the barest minimum. Saddam reportedly decided on war sometime in July 1990, but before sending his army into Kuwait, he approached the United States to find out how it would react. In a now famous
[Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT INTO RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH CO DECIDE TO INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST TO THE US ALSO HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEIR GENES DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE VULNERABLE POSITION. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the testosterone) Hi Lawry, At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment on how Perle handled himself? Energy and body language? Thanks, L Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the mist, I've been thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David Dimbleby's TV programmes in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited some of the highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. On two occasions on ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one on BBC (60 minute programme), Perle has been the main protagonist speaking (long-distance video) from America while the expert platform interlocutors (except for Dimbleby himself) have been different at this end in each programme. I might also say that a great deal of care must have gone into the selection of the studio audiences. As far as I could judge, the most recent one fairly represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split in England. There were also several brilliant expert speakers seated on the front row of the audience. Perle was equal to any of them, audience or platform, except on a couple of occasions (more later). (Incidentally, let me illustrate my comment from yesterday about the testosterone effect. A week ago, the opposition to Blair's support for Bush was at around 65% in this country. A YouGov (Internet-based) poll from couple of days ago gave a 60/40 split. During yesterday's Dimbleby programme, a phone-in vote gave a 55/45 split. I think if a poll were taken later on today or tomorrow morning [assuming that Bush declares war then] I would guess that a poll would show a 50/50 or even a 45/55 split in favour of war. This rapidly shifting opinion of about 20% is due, to my mind, to the credulous portion of the male population who are now being carried away by the excitement of events. However, I think this trend will reverse itself when women start expressing themselves more forcefully in the coming weeks if there are large/gruesome fatalities among the Iraqi civilians.) (And now may I diverge just one more time before I discuss Perle in particular? Here's a little bit about the neuropsychology of body language. Most people are now aware that an individual being questioned will give away his state of stress by involuntary movements. For example, TV camerapeople have long ago cottoned onto this by giving shots of interlocutors' bobbing foot movements when individuals are lying -- or the darting hand scratching the back of the head, or ears, or nose. What is not widely known, though, is that the motor strip of the brain which transmits muscle movement commands [both voluntary and involuntary] is far from being proportionate to the layout of the body. In short, there are
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT INTO RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH CO DECIDE TO INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST TO THE US ALSO HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEIR GENES DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE VULNERABLE POSITION. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the testosterone) Hi Lawry, At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment on how Perle handled himself? Energy and body language? Thanks, L Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the mist, I've been thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David Dimbleby's TV programmes in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited some of the highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. On two occasions on ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one on BBC (60 minute programme), Perle has been the main protagonist speaking (long-distance video) from America while the expert platform interlocutors (except for Dimbleby himself) have been different at this end in each programme. I might also say that a great deal of care must have gone into the selection of the studio audiences. As far as I could judge, the most recent one fairly represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split in England. There were also several brilliant expert speakers seated on the front row of the audience. Perle was equal to any of them, audience or platform, except on a couple of occasions (more later). (Incidentally, let me illustrate my comment from yesterday about the testosterone effect. A week ago, the opposition to Blair's support for Bush was at around 65% in this country. A YouGov (Internet-based) poll from couple of days ago gave a 60/40 split.
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I hadn't read Keith's note before but it does sound very much like some of my best friends are. doesn't it? Selma - Original Message - From: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT INTO RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH CO DECIDE TO INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST TO THE US ALSO HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEIR GENES DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE VULNERABLE POSITION. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the testosterone) Hi Lawry, At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment on how Perle handled himself? Energy and body language? Thanks, L Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the mist, I've been thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David Dimbleby's TV programmes in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited some of the highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. On two occasions on ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one on BBC (60 minute programme), Perle has been the main protagonist speaking (long-distance video) from America while the expert platform interlocutors (except for Dimbleby himself) have been different at this end in each programme. I might also say that a great deal of care must have gone into the selection of the studio audiences. As far as I could judge, the most recent one fairly represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split
Re: [Futurework] Re: Security Council's responsibility [was Futurework] It's the testosterone (was Powerful Stuff)
Gail, you do keep trying just as all of us keep hoping, but Kofi Annan's role is that of moderator, not a leader. His only possibility is to try to broker something that would bring piece among the lead players on the Security Council, and that look pretty-well impossible right now. Neither the US nor the other lead powers are in a mood for it. My own hope is that the war on Iraq is only moderately successful, that not too many people get killed, that it doesn't drag on too long, and that what emerges is a prolonged stalemate in which the major powers have to begin negotiating with each other again. Ed Weick - Original Message - From: G. Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Karen Watters Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 12:34 PM Subject: [Futurework] Re: Security Council's responsibility [was Futurework] It's the testosterone (was Powerful Stuff) Karen, There is also this: BETWEEN THE LINES - ONLINE - BY JONATHAN ALTER A Hail-Mary Peace Plan Here's a last-minute idea for how to avert war with Iraq Newsweek Web Exclusive: March 15 - I'm not a dove, but if I were, I'd be looking for a 'Hail Mary' pass just about now. Signing petitions and marching in the streets isn't going to stop this war or even delay it. Nor will beating the United States in the United Nations Security Council. Prayers for a coup in Baghdad or a change of heart in Washington are useless. SO IT'S TIME for a little out-of-the-box (or even off-the-wall) thinking. The first question is whether there' s anyone with the stature to spearhead a creative alternative, and the answer is yes. His name is Kofi Annan. If the Secretary General decided to step forward and lead the U.N., not rhetorically but literally, the status quo in Iraq could be transformed quickly, and, most likely, peacefully. So far, the Security Council has been obstructing and dithering, but not acting (He goes on, with his own plan) http://www.msnbc.com/news/885729.asp?0cv=KB10#BODY Gail Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Karen Watters Cole To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Keith Hudson Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:42 AM Subject: [Futurework] It's the testosterone (was Powerful Stuff) The Washington Post demonstrates that it, too is struggling. I would summarize this as Yes, but.- KWC WP Editorial: Damage Control Sunday, March 16, 2003; Page B06 We hope the summit today in the Azores will offer a way out of the impasse on Iraq at the United Nations Security Council. But the flurry of activity at the White House on Friday, when President Bush's meeting with the British and Spanish prime ministers was abruptly confirmed, looked more like damage control than serious diplomacy. ... ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT INTO RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH CO DECIDE TO INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST TO THE US ALSO HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEIR GENES DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE VULNERABLE POSITION. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the testosterone) Hi Lawry, At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment on how Perle handled himself? Energy and body language? Thanks, L Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the mist, I've been thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David Dimbleby's TV programmes in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited some of the highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. On two occasions on ITV (60 and 90 minute
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT INTO RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH CO DECIDE TO INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST TO THE US ALSO HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEIR GENES DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE VULNERABLE POSITION. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the testosterone) Hi Lawry, At 15:55 16/03/03
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or another. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF
[Futurework] FW: A.Word.A.Day--instauration
another nice word for today. Let's move to instauration of the basic trust and good faith among the members of this list. We may be fragile from time to time but we are tenacious and tough. -Original Message- From: Wordsmith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: A.Word.A.Day--instauration instauration (in-sto-RAY-shuhn) noun 1. Renewal; renovation; restoration. 2. An act of founding or establishing something. [From Latin instauration-, from instauratio, from instaurare (to renew). Other words derived from the same root are: store, restore, and stow.] Universities are, since their instauration in Bologna, Salerno, or medieval Paris, fragile, although tenacious, beasts. George Steiner; An Academic Comes of Age in 'The Sleepless City'; The Chronicle of Higher Education (Washington); Feb 6, 1998. He (Francis Bacon) did not, as it happened, have much success persuading either of his two royal patrons, Elizabeth I or James I, to invest public funds in the `Great Instauration' of knowledge he envisioned. Roger Kimball; Knowing It All; Wall Street Journal (New York); Jul 23, 1998. It's that time of the year again, the time when we feature odds-and-ends. One-of-a-kind words. Words that are unusual, picturesque, whimsical, esoteric, or intriguing. And like all the creatures in this world, these words serve a purpose (as shown by the accompanying citations). They make our verbal universe richer and more diverse. So here they are. We've coaxed them out of the dictionary -- it's not often that one finds them in the open -- and we hope you'll welcome them in your diction. -Anu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sponsored by Think Right Now! International: Depressed? Anxious? Unmotivated? If your willpower persistence always fizzle out, see the new paradigm in personal growth. http://mcssl.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=17954 AND You? Your message here. To reach more than half-million readers, contact us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Poetry is to prose as dancing is to walking. -John Barrington Wain, writer (1925-1994) Send your comments to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Subject: line as subscribe Name or unsubscribe. Archives, FAQ, gift subscription form, bulletin board, and more at http://wordsmith.org/awad/ Pronunciation: http://wordsmith.org/words/instauration.wav http://wordsmith.org/words/instauration.ram ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or another. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews --
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or another. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or another. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Selma and others. Keith has been on this list as long as I have, which is almost forever. Over the years, in many postings, he has shown a very strong interest in both intelligence and genetic inheritance. This interest has been intellectual and, in my opinion, not prejudicial. Nevertheless both an apology and forgiveness would seem needed at this time. Ed Weick - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -Original Message- From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM To: Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact that I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. The some of my best friends and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found your way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current American policy while talking about genes and the so-called accomplishments of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / himself as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like the way the message comes across. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: devorah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Devorah, I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you have done. I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration for many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who have not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced a great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost out of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will always be grateful for his help. I would request your apology when you have read my posting more carefully. Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. Keith Hudson At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing agenda that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the entire continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of how to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education come to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes far beyond that. YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS DOUBTED EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT INTO RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH CO
[Futurework] Toxic group (was: An apology requested)
Arthur, I dislike Perle because he's part of a dishonest frame-up in order to establish control over Iraqi oil, not because he's Jewish or because he keeps his emotions under control. He's part of what I consider a pretty toxic group which has persuaded a weak-minded Blair and which might wreck the United Nations. (I'm using an adjective which several newspapers over here are now using about Bush and the the people around Bush, Jew or Gentile.) I think the real problem that my posting elicted is the idea that we have genes and that some genes allow some people to be cleverer than others. Howevr, to ignore this is to ignore the whole process of evolution which has produced homo sapiens. I guess I can live without receiving an apology. I'm only interested just at the moment at what the result of Blair's Cabinet meeting might be, which started 50 minutes ago. How many Ministers will have the courage to resign, I wonder? Keith Hudson At 11:11 17/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur Keith Hudson, General Editor, Handlo Music, http://www.handlo.com 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England Tel: +44 1225 312622; Fax: +44 1225 447727; mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] Toxic group (was: An apology requested)
It's interesting how we all read things differently. The way I read the note from Devorah, she was asking for an apology FROM Keith, not to him. Selma I wonder what Keith might think he is owed an opology for? S. - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: [Futurework] Toxic group (was: An apology requested) Arthur, I dislike Perle because he's part of a dishonest frame-up in order to establish control over Iraqi oil, not because he's Jewish or because he keeps his emotions under control. He's part of what I consider a pretty toxic group which has persuaded a weak-minded Blair and which might wreck the United Nations. (I'm using an adjective which several newspapers over here are now using about Bush and the the people around Bush, Jew or Gentile.) I think the real problem that my posting elicted is the idea that we have genes and that some genes allow some people to be cleverer than others. Howevr, to ignore this is to ignore the whole process of evolution which has produced homo sapiens. I guess I can live without receiving an apology. I'm only interested just at the moment at what the result of Blair's Cabinet meeting might be, which started 50 minutes ago. How many Ministers will have the courage to resign, I wonder? Keith Hudson At 11:11 17/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -- -- Keith Hudson, General Editor, Handlo Music, http://www.handlo.com 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England Tel: +44 1225 312622; Fax: +44 1225 447727; mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Harbouring stereotypes is probably some sort of elaboration of pattern recognition. Thinking in this way doesn't cause harm. Acting on this in a public policy way can cause problems. btw, I am Jewish. I have been insulted, beaten up and called dirty Jew many times. I identify with Jewishness across the board--from Einstein to the streetcorner merchant. My father changed his name from Cohen to Cordell because of anti-semitism. I know a little about what some are feeling. I would rather that people were gender blind, colour blind, and racially neutralbut they are not. No amount of appeal to sweet reason will seem to work. Civility and acceptance and avoiding some issues seems to be useful. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or another. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends
RE: [Futurework] Toxic group (was: An apology requested)
I think Dr. Freud may have something to say about that slip. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:59 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] Toxic group (was: An apology requested) It's interesting how we all read things differently. The way I read the note from Devorah, she was asking for an apology FROM Keith, not to him. Selma I wonder what Keith might think he is owed an opology for? S. - Original Message - From: Keith Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: [Futurework] Toxic group (was: An apology requested) Arthur, I dislike Perle because he's part of a dishonest frame-up in order to establish control over Iraqi oil, not because he's Jewish or because he keeps his emotions under control. He's part of what I consider a pretty toxic group which has persuaded a weak-minded Blair and which might wreck the United Nations. (I'm using an adjective which several newspapers over here are now using about Bush and the the people around Bush, Jew or Gentile.) I think the real problem that my posting elicted is the idea that we have genes and that some genes allow some people to be cleverer than others. Howevr, to ignore this is to ignore the whole process of evolution which has produced homo sapiens. I guess I can live without receiving an apology. I'm only interested just at the moment at what the result of Blair's Cabinet meeting might be, which started 50 minutes ago. How many Ministers will have the courage to resign, I wonder? Keith Hudson At 11:11 17/03/03 -0500, you wrote: Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language and facial expressions (unless Perle were present) And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control over his emotions? arthur -- -- Keith Hudson, General Editor, Handlo Music, http://www.handlo.com 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England Tel: +44 1225 312622; Fax: +44 1225 447727; mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Arthur, Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your post. Are you saying that it is not possible for people to realize that the stereotyping that they're doing can cause harm? And that if they do realize it there is no possibility that they will try to stop doing it or be aware of it in others and try to get it diminished? I am not the least bit interested in having people be 'civil' to me who have stereotypes about me that are insulting. Is it only if it results in some kind of formal policy or legislation that it can be changed? It's just not clear to me what you mean to be saying when you insist that it is impossible for people to get rid of stereotypes. Is it also impossible for people to change their attitudes which are prejudicial, misinformed, based on erroneous information, etc. Please clarify. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Harbouring stereotypes is probably some sort of elaboration of pattern recognition. Thinking in this way doesn't cause harm. Acting on this in a public policy way can cause problems. btw, I am Jewish. I have been insulted, beaten up and called dirty Jew many times. I identify with Jewishness across the board--from Einstein to the streetcorner merchant. My father changed his name from Cohen to Cordell because of anti-semitism. I know a little about what some are feeling. I would rather that people were gender blind, colour blind, and racially neutralbut they are not. No amount of appeal to sweet reason will seem to work. Civility and acceptance and avoiding some issues seems to be useful. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Think what you want, just don't act on it. Civility and the rule of law allows a complex society to function. I don't expect people to like me. Overt civility and mutual respect go a long way. By enforcing politically correct codes of behaviour and ways of thinking on ourselves and others we may end up in a place that is not so desirable. Humans seem to have a need for the other. When you figure out a way for all of us to sing Beethoven's Ninth together and really mean it, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:06 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Arthur, Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your post. Are you saying that it is not possible for people to realize that the stereotyping that they're doing can cause harm? And that if they do realize it there is no possibility that they will try to stop doing it or be aware of it in others and try to get it diminished? I am not the least bit interested in having people be 'civil' to me who have stereotypes about me that are insulting. Is it only if it results in some kind of formal policy or legislation that it can be changed? It's just not clear to me what you mean to be saying when you insist that it is impossible for people to get rid of stereotypes. Is it also impossible for people to change their attitudes which are prejudicial, misinformed, based on erroneous information, etc. Please clarify. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Harbouring stereotypes is probably some sort of elaboration of pattern recognition. Thinking in this way doesn't cause harm. Acting on this in a public policy way can cause problems. btw, I am Jewish. I have been insulted, beaten up and called dirty Jew many times. I identify with Jewishness across the board--from Einstein to the streetcorner merchant. My father changed his name from Cohen to Cordell because of anti-semitism. I know a little about what some are feeling. I would rather that people were gender blind, colour blind, and racially neutralbut they are not. No amount of appeal to sweet reason will seem to work. Civility and acceptance and avoiding some issues seems to be useful. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
So I guess I am interpreting your messages correctly; it's simply not possible for people to change, modify or rid themselves of their stereotypes or harmful ways of thinking. Would you say that it is genetically determined? Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Think what you want, just don't act on it. Civility and the rule of law allows a complex society to function. I don't expect people to like me. Overt civility and mutual respect go a long way. By enforcing politically correct codes of behaviour and ways of thinking on ourselves and others we may end up in a place that is not so desirable. Humans seem to have a need for the other. When you figure out a way for all of us to sing Beethoven's Ninth together and really mean it, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:06 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Arthur, Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your post. Are you saying that it is not possible for people to realize that the stereotyping that they're doing can cause harm? And that if they do realize it there is no possibility that they will try to stop doing it or be aware of it in others and try to get it diminished? I am not the least bit interested in having people be 'civil' to me who have stereotypes about me that are insulting. Is it only if it results in some kind of formal policy or legislation that it can be changed? It's just not clear to me what you mean to be saying when you insist that it is impossible for people to get rid of stereotypes. Is it also impossible for people to change their attitudes which are prejudicial, misinformed, based on erroneous information, etc. Please clarify. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Harbouring stereotypes is probably some sort of elaboration of pattern recognition. Thinking in this way doesn't cause harm. Acting on this in a public policy way can cause problems. btw, I am Jewish. I have been insulted, beaten up and called dirty Jew many times. I identify with Jewishness across the board--from Einstein to the streetcorner merchant. My father changed his name from Cohen to Cordell because of anti-semitism. I know a little about what some are feeling. I would rather that people were gender blind, colour blind, and racially neutralbut they are not. No amount of appeal to sweet reason will seem to work. Civility and acceptance and avoiding some issues seems to be useful. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Selma, I don't think anyone would agree that racism is trivial. That is a straw man. The issue is whether Keith meant to be anti-Semitic in his evaluation.Also I think it is stretching the point not to acknowledge that certain groups succeed in a certain set of circumstances better than others for probably more cultural reasons than genetic but there is probably a talent side to it as well.Those tests Keith mentioned are severely Anglophile. Is it any wonder that an Englishman would admire people who do well at them?How about Italians admiring the technique of American opera singers for the same reason? In my culture there are two givens. 1. tell the truth and 2. don't confront. If you confront then you have declared war and war is total. In my religion there is one primal sin, the sin of proselytizing.I also come from a place of plenty. The Jezreel valley was a place of scarcity where the Armies of the two major powers of the day marched through raping and pillaging on a regular basis. These things shape culture, language and sacred books.The confrontational politics of England and Israel would mean one thing to me and quite another to each of you. This conversation that you are having makes no sense to me at all.Ask him if he meant what you ascribe to him. His words belong to him, his time, his family and his culture and the language is his first not yours or mine. He at least should be given the respect of asking whether he meant what you say he said.Just as he might have some questions for the two of you. REH - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to lighten up when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just being British. If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to lighten up Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I wonder if the casual email medium is as much at fault here as the reading of words to mean one thing and not another. As someone who has had a few arguments online, I speak from experience that asking for clarification is important before jumping to conclusions. I also have reacted in anger too quickly when someone's words offended me and wished that I had reconsidered before I used the send button, and also wished that I had chosen my own words more carefully in light of the manner in which we communicate online. Hopefully, we can all take into account that there is plenty of anxiety to go around everywhere. Many of us are under stress that we do not share with everyone. I imagine that in Israel they are feeling much more impacted by any pro-Likud factions in the US gov't since Israel is within range of Iraq's scud missiles. No one in Israel should feel safe about the presence of over 250,000 American troops nearby and tons of weaponry ready to be used. There are no guarantees in military combat. The whole neighborhood in all directions is under threat. In Britain, a fateful alliance is making history as one cabinet is threatened that a year ago seemed impervious to any political challenge. As it is so often in Israel, a government is at risk and change is foreseeable. And Prince Charles is not providing any sense of national honor and stability. Here in the US, we are still largely unaffected by the new doctrines in foreign policy being implemented as we speak. There is no foreseeable risk to our government in the short term. Many Americans seem to be still blithely unaware of much past history that impacts the present. There are great divides, however, on the consequences as we proceed. I think there will be Teutonic shifts in global alliances and attitudes, but on the domestic front it is too soon to tell. Not surprisingly, Pres. Bush has a televised speech at 8pm ET tonight. We have full moonlight for more than a week. Who knows what tomorrow brings? Karen ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
I keep asking for clarification, but so far there has been little. Selma - Original Message - From: Karen Watters Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ed Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 1:09 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I wonder if the casual email medium is as much at fault here as the reading of words to mean one thing and not another. As someone who has had a few arguments online, I speak from experience that asking for clarification is important before jumping to conclusions. I also have reacted in anger too quickly when someone's words offended me and wished that I had reconsidered before I used the send button, and also wished that I had chosen my own words more carefully in light of the manner in which we communicate online. Hopefully, we can all take into account that there is plenty of anxiety to go around everywhere. Many of us are under stress that we do not share with everyone. I imagine that in Israel they are feeling much more impacted by any pro-Likud factions in the US gov't since Israel is within range of Iraq's scud missiles. No one in Israel should feel safe about the presence of over 250,000 American troops nearby and tons of weaponry ready to be used. There are no guarantees in military combat. The whole neighborhood in all directions is under threat. In Britain, a fateful alliance is making history as one cabinet is threatened that a year ago seemed impervious to any political challenge. As it is so often in Israel, a government is at risk and change is foreseeable. And Prince Charles is not providing any sense of national honor and stability. Here in the US, we are still largely unaffected by the new doctrines in foreign policy being implemented as we speak. There is no foreseeable risk to our government in the short term. Many Americans seem to be still blithely unaware of much past history that impacts the present. There are great divides, however, on the consequences as we proceed. I think there will be Teutonic shifts in global alliances and attitudes, but on the domestic front it is too soon to tell. Not surprisingly, Pres. Bush has a televised speech at 8pm ET tonight. We have full moonlight for more than a week. Who knows what tomorrow brings? Karen ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Ray, I am not particularly interested in confrontation per se. However, there are times when things are said that are simply unacceptable and when I can, I feel an obligation to say that they are unacceptable. I am not the least bit interested in whether Keith is antisemitic or not. What interests me is that the statements he makes are assumed by others to be acceptable when I believe that those statements cause harm. I believe that the kinds of statements he made to which Devorah objected are harmful; that they perpetuate a way of thinking that ultimately results in great harm to people, not only emotionally , but in a myriad of other ways. To dismiss those statements for any reason is to in some way to say that they do not cause harm and I think that causes harm. I am a sociologist and I could deliver any number of lectures on the harm done by stereotypes. I am really at a loss to understand why the few people who post to this list, who seem otherwise to be somewhat aware and knowledgeable about some of these things can possibly argue that stereotypes are not harmful. The evidence is so overwhelming that they have caused enormous harm. When people are having a discussion about a person and note that they say certain things and move in certain ways or make references to which they either object or not, why is it not enough to focus on what the person said or did? Why is it necessary to refer to the group the person belongs to. Sure, there are some wonderful Jewish violinist and Jews have accomplished great things. Let me guess that if Jews had not been discriminated against over the ages in the way that they have, they may not have accomplished such great things or maybe they would have accomplished other things, just as great, but different. African-Americans in this country have made an enormous impact in sports and in some kinds of entertainment, etc. Does anyone doubt that, if they had been given more opportunities they would have made the same impact in athletics or that they wouldn't have contributed much, much more in dozens of other areas? Selma - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, I don't think anyone would agree that racism is trivial. That is a straw man. The issue is whether Keith meant to be anti-Semitic in his evaluation.Also I think it is stretching the point not to acknowledge that certain groups succeed in a certain set of circumstances better than others for probably more cultural reasons than genetic but there is probably a talent side to it as well.Those tests Keith mentioned are severely Anglophile. Is it any wonder that an Englishman would admire people who do well at them?How about Italians admiring the technique of American opera singers for the same reason? In my culture there are two givens. 1. tell the truth and 2. don't confront. If you confront then you have declared war and war is total. In my religion there is one primal sin, the sin of proselytizing.I also come from a place of plenty. The Jezreel valley was a place of scarcity where the Armies of the two major powers of the day marched through raping and pillaging on a regular basis. These things shape culture, language and sacred books.The confrontational politics of England and Israel would mean one thing to me and quite another to each of you. This conversation that you are having makes no sense to me at all.Ask him if he meant what you ascribe to him. His words belong to him, his time, his family and his culture and the language is his first not yours or mine. He at least should be given the respect of asking whether he meant what you say he said.Just as he might have some questions for the two of you. REH - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as okay and dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various cultural ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we must work to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish their impact and hope to destroy them. Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to change any of your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to yourself of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? Selma Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Ray, Would you please clarify that statement about stereotypes? I would define a stereotype as a generalization about an individual based on assumptions about the characteristics of the group to which the individual is assumed to belong; those assumptions about the group may or may not be based on factual evidence. - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Stereotype comes from the frame that exists as the heading of a newspaper. It is not the daily news, it simply implies ownership. REH - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I didn't say that stereotypes were harmful. Sometimes they are sometimes not. You seem to think that stereotypes are harmful. I don't. Perhaps we can agree to disagree. And yes, I do change my views on many things. Its called learning. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:15 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) So I guess I am interpreting your messages correctly; it's simply not possible for people to change, modify or rid themselves of their stereotypes or harmful ways of thinking. Would you say that it is genetically determined? Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Think what you want, just don't act on it. Civility and the rule of law allows a complex society to function. I don't expect people to like me. Overt civility and mutual respect go a long way. By enforcing politically correct codes of behaviour and ways of thinking on ourselves and others we may end up in a place that is not so desirable. Humans seem to have a need for the other. When you figure out a way for all of us to sing Beethoven's Ninth together and really mean it, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:06 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Arthur, Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your post. Are you saying that it is not possible for people to realize that the stereotyping that they're doing can cause harm? And that if they do realize it there is no possibility that they will try to stop doing it or be aware of it in others and try to get it diminished? I am not the least bit interested in having people be 'civil' to me who have stereotypes about me that are insulting. Is it only if it results in some kind of formal policy or legislation that it can be changed? It's just not clear to me what you mean to be saying when you insist that it is impossible for people to get rid of stereotypes. Is it also impossible for people to change their attitudes which are prejudicial, misinformed, based on erroneous information, etc. Please clarify. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Harbouring stereotypes is probably some sort of elaboration of pattern recognition. Thinking in this way doesn't cause harm. Acting on this in a public policy way can cause problems. btw, I am Jewish. I have been insulted, beaten up and called dirty Jew many times. I identify with Jewishness across the board--from Einstein to the streetcorner merchant. My father changed his name from Cohen to Cordell because of anti-semitism. I know a little about what some are feeling. I would rather that people were gender blind, colour blind, and racially neutralbut they are not. No amount of appeal to sweet reason will seem to work. Civility and acceptance and avoiding some issues seems to be useful. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer
[Futurework] The B52s are now taking off
I've just been out in my garden, sitting by my garden pond, and listening to the noise of B52 bombers high in the air above me, or at least imagining I was listening to them -- the background sound of traffic below me in the city made me slightly uncertain. But what I certainly *do* know is that a few minutes ago a BBC TV reporter was showing us live pictures of American B52 bombers lining up on the runway at RAF Fairfield airplane base, one of the largest in the country and only a few miles north of here. Then they were taking off, one after the other. The BBC man said he didn't know whether they were on a training flight or whether . . . his voice trailed away then. I guess they'll still be taking off even as I'm writing these words. I think they were taking off in earnest and not on a training run. (I can hardly think their personnel need to train any more -- they came here fresh from America only a few days ago.) From here, B52s can reach Iraq quite comfortably. If they're going to Iraq, they'll reach there soon after Bush gives his declaration of war in about four hours' time -- though he won't call it that, of course. He'll use some other euphemism. America and the UK will not be aggressors either, which they are. They'll be co-sponsors of freedom or something or other -- the term that Blair used today to justify his illegal and immoral decision, taken against the will of the people. If this evening's B52s are indeed going to bomb Baghdad then they'll reach there at about dawn. They'll drop their loads while high in the sky, as they did in Afghanistan and there'll be little that's precise about it. The people of Baghdad will scarcely have time to greet the rising sun before devastation might be raining down on them and burying them in rubble and blood. It seems that nothing can prevent death to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of innocent people now. If I were a praying man I would be praying now, but I'm not and the prospect seems unavoidable. Keith Hudson -- Keith Hudson,6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England Tel:01225 312622/444881; Fax:01225 447727; E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Harry, I wasn't sure what the point of your post was until I saw it at the end. Please tell me if I am misinterpreting what you are trying to convey: I understand you to be saying that racist epithets have their place in our conversations; that they can be used to provoke thought in a way that could not be done otherwise; that those of us who object to the stereotypes (whether based on factual evidence or not; stereotypes can never be accurate because the characteristics of the group never apply completely to any one individual) are overreacting to a way of speaking that is generally harmless and we should in no way try to keep people from any of these kinds of speech- I don't mean by legal or formal restrictions of any kind; I think you are saying that it makes no sense at all to point out that these kinds of speech can cause harm because that simply is not true. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you posted, Harry. Selma - Original Message - From: Harry Pollard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma and Devorah. Some of my best friends are Jews. In fact, most of my long time friends are Jews. A disadvantage of my upbringing was that my parents never told me that Jews, or blacks, or Asians, were different. They sent me, unknowing, out on to the road. Some snapshots: As a teenager, I did notice two newsagents - a Gentile 'Peers', and a Jew 'Arams'. Peers in a good location would open at 9 and close at 5. I would run into Arams as he left his shop at 8 pm at night. He worked hard. Although we were friends, I knew he was actually part of a Jewish conspiracy to dump Peers. (And he was so determined, he did it by hard work.) When I chaired London's Young Liberals, we dropped off at Harry Gold's house in the East End of London. This was my first experience of a Jewish Mother. As Harry went about his business, she followed him, demanding that he go to Synagogue, insisting there are some nice girls there, etc., etc. Harry mostly smiled and mollified, then gave her a kiss and we left. But, I had met the Jewish Mother we've heard so much about. As the French, or even the British would say - formidable. The funny thing was that she was like my Irish mother (replace Synagogue with Oratory). Had I not known that the Jews were a practically different species, I would have come to a tentative conclusion that all mothers are pretty much the same. Along with Harry Gold, Jack Silver was on my Executive. I never worked it out, but those Jews were probably up to something devious. I did quite a bit of lecturing when I arrived in New York for 6 weeks before heading for Canada. In one speech, I used the N-word for black audiences, and the K-word for Jewish audiences. I would ask a question in which I would insert the word. Then after the commotion had died down, I would ask what the question was. No-one knew. Which would allow me to make my point. That they shouldn't allow emotional words to stop them thinking - which reaction is the intend of the racists. Of course, I was 30, courageous (and a bit of a prig) all of which led to the experiments which did successfully make a point. I would be scared to try it now - though since then I have tried a similar experiment on radio. I tried the K-word on Canadian Jews, but it seemed to have no reaction. Unlike the New York Jews, the Canadian Jews were obviously part of a conspiracy to ruin my speeches. I knew it! Because there were so many socially conscious Jews at the Henry George School in New York (it was founded by a Jew) I thought in Toronto that a class at the Young Mens Hebrew Association would be highly successful, but the Secretary told me: Harry, Jews are no different from Gentiles in their approach to politics and economics. Why did he tell me that? What was his hidden agenda? We get to know each other very well as we exchange thoughts on the list. Keith is a pretty good bloke with a mind that ranges far. So, he brought into discussion some thoughts on Jews in high office. The reaction from Devorah was completely uncalled for. It's understandable, but out of context. I want no restriction placed on Keith's thinking. It is often too good - though, as I've told him - he needs a little work on AIDS and Nuclear Power. I fear we have a new class of people who might be called the Anti-Anti-Semites, or the Anti-Anti-Blacks. They jump on every real or imagined slight and make a Federal case out of it. So, for example, we can talk about white thugs, but are forbidden to talk about black thugs. We can talk of conspiracies (we do all the time, gang, don't we?) - but not of Jewish conspiracies. We are so afraid of being thought anti-Semitic, or racist, that we don't talk
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Now I have something to apologize for I might have contributed to the stymying of a great man's thinking. What could be more damaging to the fate of the world than that! I would never want to do that! p.s.: I have often wondered why people on lists can get as sarcastic as this self-satisfied - priggish (too 'cultured' a word) - uncouth --exchange has gotten me. Probably my tiny Jewish female --- oh yes, mother's brain. Never was worth much anyway. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Harry Pollard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Harry, I wasn't sure what the point of your post was until I saw it at the end. Please tell me if I am misinterpreting what you are trying to convey: I understand you to be saying that racist epithets have their place in our conversations; that they can be used to provoke thought in a way that could not be done otherwise; that those of us who object to the stereotypes (whether based on factual evidence or not; stereotypes can never be accurate because the characteristics of the group never apply completely to any one individual) are overreacting to a way of speaking that is generally harmless and we should in no way try to keep people from any of these kinds of speech- I don't mean by legal or formal restrictions of any kind; I think you are saying that it makes no sense at all to point out that these kinds of speech can cause harm because that simply is not true. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you posted, Harry. Selma - Original Message - From: Harry Pollard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma and Devorah. Some of my best friends are Jews. In fact, most of my long time friends are Jews. A disadvantage of my upbringing was that my parents never told me that Jews, or blacks, or Asians, were different. They sent me, unknowing, out on to the road. Some snapshots: As a teenager, I did notice two newsagents - a Gentile 'Peers', and a Jew 'Arams'. Peers in a good location would open at 9 and close at 5. I would run into Arams as he left his shop at 8 pm at night. He worked hard. Although we were friends, I knew he was actually part of a Jewish conspiracy to dump Peers. (And he was so determined, he did it by hard work.) When I chaired London's Young Liberals, we dropped off at Harry Gold's house in the East End of London. This was my first experience of a Jewish Mother. As Harry went about his business, she followed him, demanding that he go to Synagogue, insisting there are some nice girls there, etc., etc. Harry mostly smiled and mollified, then gave her a kiss and we left. But, I had met the Jewish Mother we've heard so much about. As the French, or even the British would say - formidable. The funny thing was that she was like my Irish mother (replace Synagogue with Oratory). Had I not known that the Jews were a practically different species, I would have come to a tentative conclusion that all mothers are pretty much the same. Along with Harry Gold, Jack Silver was on my Executive. I never worked it out, but those Jews were probably up to something devious. I did quite a bit of lecturing when I arrived in New York for 6 weeks before heading for Canada. In one speech, I used the N-word for black audiences, and the K-word for Jewish audiences. I would ask a question in which I would insert the word. Then after the commotion had died down, I would ask what the question was. No-one knew. Which would allow me to make my point. That they shouldn't allow emotional words to stop them thinking - which reaction is the intend of the racists. Of course, I was 30, courageous (and a bit of a prig) all of which led to the experiments which did successfully make a point. I would be scared to try it now - though since then I have tried a similar experiment on radio. I tried the K-word on Canadian Jews, but it seemed to have no reaction. Unlike the New York Jews, the Canadian Jews were obviously part of a conspiracy to ruin my speeches. I knew it! Because there were so many socially conscious Jews at the Henry George School in New York (it was founded by a Jew) I thought in Toronto that a class at the Young Mens Hebrew Association would be highly successful, but the Secretary told me: Harry, Jews are no different
Re: [Futurework] The B52s are now taking off
Judging by the stuff that's been flying around on the list recently, it's driving us all nucking futs! Ed Weick If this evening's B52s are indeed going to bomb Baghdad then they'll reach there at about dawn. They'll drop their loads while high in the sky, as they did in Afghanistan and there'll be little that's precise about it. The people of Baghdad will scarcely have time to greet the rising sun before devastation might be raining down on them and burying them in rubble and blood. It seems that nothing can prevent death to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of innocent people now. If I were a praying man I would be praying now, but I'm not and the prospect seems unavoidable. Keith Hudson -- -- -- Keith Hudson,6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England Tel:01225 312622/444881; Fax:01225 447727; E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Ray, Now I really don't understand. What do all the snippets you've sent prove other than that Jews are vulnerable and that careless words can lead to taking advantage of that vulnerability? Racism and Anti-semitism are patent when words fit in with overt violence. Words create spaces that can be dangerous. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc.Faculty of EducationUniversity of HaifaHaifa, Israel 31905Tel.: +972-4-8249357Fax: +972-4-8240911[EMAIL PROTECTED]Additional phone:+972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell To: Selma Singer ; devorah ; Keith Hudson Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, Devorah, I don't agree. I think it is just the way English people talk. I had a wonderful voice teacher who was a great English soprano and she was misunderstood on a regular basis because her students, although not Indian, had the American Indian tendency not to confront. Everyone was sure that she hated them when all she was doing was making her opinion from a position of great care for the success of the student. She left the University of Oklahoma and went back to England ostensibly to become a Dame and to teach in a more understandable place for she only had six pupils in the end and the University was not happy. Although they were happy to honor her for her accomplishments on the stage. That was my first experience with people saying things that I heard and they didn't mean. If you notice, I don't have any problem confronting. I learned to speak people's language from the context of their culture. I have defended and will continue to defend Israel's right to exist in firm borders as well as the Palestinians. I also defend and admire the things in Jewish culture that create success in the world and do a great service to all of humanity. I resonate with the small number of Jews in the world and the problems that creates, for their dealing with issues of personal competence in the midst of jealousy in the dominant culture. Such problems have caused Jews to deny the successes that they have had as a group in American Society. In point of fact, it is what I think of as the Jewish Avant Garde (neo-conservatives) who culturally resemble the Musical Minimalists who make a meditation out of repetition that Keith and Harry most resemble in their opinions and they have made no bones about it. I find that position very Positivist and 19th century in its science, i.e. the statements about nerves in the face vs in the body as if the body was not a whole. 19th century attitude divides the body into systems that are pedagogical divides and don't truly exist in reality and in fact become intellectual walls to advanced understandings of the role of the various types of muscle actionin the body. But what can you say? I would also ask Keith whether that little glitch that Perle had before answering had anything to do with a delay in the satellite feed as often happens here when getting transworld communications. That being said, I think you can find intellectual disagreement with Keith on a lot in that post but Keith's attitudewas doing no less than the Jewish author Herrnstein with Murray did in the book the Bell Curve. He also would not find people disagreeing with him in the neo-conservative arm of Jewish America, Commentary, New Criterion etc. In fact I would be shocked if any of that group including Perle disagreed with his statements since I have read such statements in the New Criterion on a regular basis. I never considered my old coach, the NC Publisher Samuel Lipman to be a racist either although I think he made a mess here in the arts with his rigidity. He would have called it "Talmudic" and thought it a virtue. So I just think that name calling is not useful here. We all have strong opinions and we should be careful of throwing such epitaphs around. It is a toxic bird that always comes home "to roost." That being said, a good dose of cold water in the face can often jar the senses. Will theEnglish cease to be English? Why should they? But they should be limited in their effects when it crosses into our space as should everyone. To Keith, I would suggest you think about translation, but I don't think you are a racist or anti-semite. I'm including some incidents that came to me over the weekend. It provides an interesting context for the feelings thatKeith stirred up. I share it with all of you in that spirit. Finally and long overdue, your people, oppressed and disgraced by hatred and maliciousness, have achieved justice: now you enjoy full citizen's rights, but you'll remain Jews nonetheless." Franz
[Futurework] Economic consequences
U.S. Unilateralism Worries Trade Officials (excerpts) By Elizabeth Becker, NYT Business March 17, 2003 @ http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/17/international/17TRAD.html GENEVA, March 16 Top officials at the World Trade Organization say they are worried that the Bush administration's go-it-alone policy is threatening international trade. In the normally closed, clubby world of the trade organization, envoys and officials said they feared that American moves within the organization and toward a potential war in Iraq would weaken respect for international rules and lead to serious economic consequences. In the past several months the United States has compiled a long record of violating trade rules and has single-handedly blocked an agreement to provide medicines for the world's poorest nations, a rare occurrence in this institution that painstakingly builds consensus behind closed doors. Supachai Panitchpakdi, the director general of the W.T.O., said a war could have a devastating practical impact as the world grapples with a trade slowdown, rising oil prices and rising costs for transportation and insurance. I can feel the sense of trepidation, Mr. Supachai said in an interview. Whatever happens, if the U.S. will maintain the way we use multilateral solutions, it will be highly appreciated. That delicate expression of concern was repeated by some of America's strongest allies. They said they were worried that all international institutions would suffer a loss of credibility if the one superpower appeared to be choosing which rules to obey. Normally you can't go to war without the cover of the U.N., but Americans are doing quite a few things alone even here, said Carlo Trojan, the European Union's permanent representative to the trade organization. The World Trade Organization is supposed to be about tradeoffs, said Shefali Sharma, the representative of the Institute for Agriculture and Trade, a nonprofit organization based in Minneapolis. Before, the European Union was the biggest sinner, but the United States is making Europe look good. The introduction of this doubt about America's commitment comes as foreign investments have dropped sharply. In 2001, international trade contracted for the first time in 20 years. The world economic outlook is gloomy. (end of excerpts) Newsweek: The Unmighty Dollar @ http://www.msnbc.com/news/885956.asp?0cv=CB30 (in full) A costly war could drive more foreign investors away from the United States, hurting living standards and our influence abroad March 24 issue As America prepares for war, all eyes are fixed on the capabilities of its troops and high-tech weapons. Less noticed is an Achilles heel that is likely to be made a lot more tender by the war, with important negative implications for future U.S. living standardsand influence. While the United States is the greatest power the world has ever seen, it is also the greatest debtor, living beyond its means and heavily dependent on foreign lenders. For years America has been importing more than it exports. These current account deficits have now reached an annual rate of $500 billion, or about 5 percent of GDP and 50 percent more than the United States spends on defense. America has been paying for the difference by borrowing. In this case, the money has to come from foreign lenders because the buying that generates the deficits is done abroad. The debt America owes abroad has now reached about $2 trillion, or about 20 percent of GDP. At its current growth rate, total U.S. foreign debt could easily top 65 percent of GDP by 2010. Even with interest rates of only 3 percent, it would take nearly $200 billion annually for the United States simply to finance the debt. The deficit ultimately arises because America saves far less than other countries, and the war is about to make that situation a lot worse. Economist Martin Wolf has conservatively estimated the cost of the war and of rebuilding Iraq over a 10-year period at $156 billion to $755 billion. Other estimates have run as high as $3 trillion. In the 1991 gulf war, most of the cost was paid by other countries. This time, the United States will have to bear most of the burden itself. Without new taxes, this will greatly increase the U.S. budget deficit. The deficit ultimately arises because America saves far less than other countries, and the war is about to make that situation a lot worse. Economist Martin Wolf has conservatively estimated the cost of the war and of rebuilding Iraq over a 10-year period at $156 billion to $755 billion. Other estimates have run as high as $3 trillion. In the 1991 gulf war, most of the cost was paid by other countries. This time, the United States will have to bear most of the burden itself. Without new taxes, this will greatly increase the U.S. budget deficit. For a long time it has been relatively easy to get the foreign funds as overseas investors have rushed to buy U.S. stocks, bonds, real
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Selma, I am with Goldwater who said in 1964 you can't legislate morality. I agree. There was a comedian, Georgie Jessel I think, who said ...you can be arrested for what you are thinking. I think he was referring to salacious thoughts. But my question is: Who cares what people are thinking? What matters is actions. To the extent that public policy is set up to act on stereotypes, there may be some harm. (Racial profiling, for example.) To the extent that people harbour private stereotypes and act on them, I don't see any harm as long as those actions don't translate into aggressive, threatening or unpleasant behaviour. If I choose to avoid some group of people (defined by sex, type of work, colour of hair, race, or whatever) that is my choice and probably my loss. But it is my choice. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:39 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I just need a little more clarification, Arthur, as much as it appears that you would prefer not to continue this conversation: In one sentence you say stereotypes are sometimes harmful and sometimes are not; in the next sentence you say that you don't think stereotypes are harmful. Please clarify. I think this is a very important issue for many reasons: it afftects how we treat each other as individuals; it affects how nations treat each other; religious groups; it affects policies about schools, work, families, zoning,police behavior, hiring practices, etc. etc. etc. I believe it is as important as any issue discussed on this list and would hate to think it is being dismissed as not important enough to be discussed. I would like to know if there is anyone else on this list that thinks that harmful stereotypes are important for the welfare of societies and the human species. Perhaps everyone believes that this is not an important issue? That certainly says something about this list, doesn't it. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I didn't say that stereotypes were harmful. Sometimes they are sometimes not. You seem to think that stereotypes are harmful. I don't. Perhaps we can agree to disagree. And yes, I do change my views on many things. Its called learning. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:15 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) So I guess I am interpreting your messages correctly; it's simply not possible for people to change, modify or rid themselves of their stereotypes or harmful ways of thinking. Would you say that it is genetically determined? Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Think what you want, just don't act on it. Civility and the rule of law allows a complex society to function. I don't expect people to like me. Overt civility and mutual respect go a long way. By enforcing politically correct codes of behaviour and ways of thinking on ourselves and others we may end up in a place that is not so desirable. Humans seem to have a need for the other. When you figure out a way for all of us to sing Beethoven's Ninth together and really mean it, please let me know. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:06 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Arthur, Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your post. Are you saying that it is not possible for people to realize that the stereotyping that they're doing can cause harm? And that if they do realize it there is no possibility that they will try to stop doing it or be aware of it in others and try to get it diminished? I am not the least bit interested in having people be 'civil' to me who have stereotypes about me that are insulting. Is it only if it results in some kind of formal policy or legislation that it can be changed? It's just not clear to me what you mean to be saying when you insist that it is impossible for people to get rid of stereotypes. Is it also impossible for people to change
[Futurework] A lighter look at some of the US pundits.
Field guide to Iraq pundits...You've seen them pontificate on TV about Iraq, but who are they? Slate's who's who list of Iraq pundits, arranged in order of bellicosity, from blood-red hawks to snow-white doves. http://www.msnbc.com/modules/exports/ct_infobeat.asp?/news/885370.asp ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Arthur, There is a whole world of difference between You can't legislate morality and the fact that the use of stereotypes in conversation, in books, in lectures, in the media, etc. is intricately connected to what people DO. I do not think it is okay for public figures, people who have positions of responsibility of any kind, e.g., teachers, public speakers, people operating in the business world, etc. to assume that stereotypes are harmless.For example, I do not think it is okay for people in the business world to create an atmosphere in which it is considered perfectly appropriate and not at all harmful for employers and other employees to espouse their racist, homophobic and sexist stereotypes to their hearts content, or even- at all. Please tell me whether you think that it is perfectly okay and allowable for employers or other employees espouse about their sexist stereotypes in the workplace, or for elementary school teachers to do that, or for police to talk about and condone their homophobic racist and sexist stereotypes as long as they don't act on it. Do you really believe there is no connection?!! When it comes to private conversations, or perhaps semi-private- such as we are having here- I refuse to allow racist, sexist, classist or homophobic comments to pass without saying something about what I consider to be gross ignorance that has to be noted and commented on and by no means allowed to pass as okay. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:40 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, I am with Goldwater who said in 1964 you can't legislate morality. I agree. There was a comedian, Georgie Jessel I think, who said ...you can be arrested for what you are thinking. I think he was referring to salacious thoughts. But my question is: Who cares what people are thinking? What matters is actions. To the extent that public policy is set up to act on stereotypes, there may be some harm. (Racial profiling, for example.) To the extent that people harbour private stereotypes and act on them, I don't see any harm as long as those actions don't translate into aggressive, threatening or unpleasant behaviour. If I choose to avoid some group of people (defined by sex, type of work, colour of hair, race, or whatever) that is my choice and probably my loss. But it is my choice. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:39 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I just need a little more clarification, Arthur, as much as it appears that you would prefer not to continue this conversation: In one sentence you say stereotypes are sometimes harmful and sometimes are not; in the next sentence you say that you don't think stereotypes are harmful. Please clarify. I think this is a very important issue for many reasons: it afftects how we treat each other as individuals; it affects how nations treat each other; religious groups; it affects policies about schools, work, families, zoning,police behavior, hiring practices, etc. etc. etc. I believe it is as important as any issue discussed on this list and would hate to think it is being dismissed as not important enough to be discussed. I would like to know if there is anyone else on this list that thinks that harmful stereotypes are important for the welfare of societies and the human species. Perhaps everyone believes that this is not an important issue? That certainly says something about this list, doesn't it. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I didn't say that stereotypes were harmful. Sometimes they are sometimes not. You seem to think that stereotypes are harmful. I don't. Perhaps we can agree to disagree. And yes, I do change my views on many things. Its called learning. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:15 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) So I guess I am interpreting your messages correctly; it's simply not possible for people to change, modify or rid themselves of their stereotypes or harmful ways of thinking. Would you say that it is genetically determined? Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Selma, see below, I didn't answer because I was teaching a voice lesson. REH - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Ray, Would you please clarify that statement about stereotypes? I would define a stereotype as a generalization about an individual based on assumptions about the characteristics of the group to which the individual is assumed to belong; Assumptions or experiences with the style and culture of the group? Style and culture are always givens about every group. In the Arts a multitude of traditions is considered a richness but when one group holds the other to the rules of their own particular style and cultural product then everyone loses for one view empirically elevated to THE view creates a mind and spirit numbing sameness.Nothing is more strange than listening to Chinese traditional singers singing with a bel canto method taught by some Western Voice Teacher who convinced them that his was the correct method of singing everything. Convention, tradition, characteristics are the truths of a particular cultural universe.Let me give you and example.It is generally considered terrible to have human sacrifice, however many of these cultures who practiced it had a first hand connection to death and its results.Overall, they had a lower death rate than the groups that praised the worth of every human life and went to war to protect it and extend its principles in Empire. But this is not only the Liberal Capitalistic West but both versions of Western Socialism as well. Everyone claims that it wouldn't happen if it wasn't for people not being good enough at applying the principles. But that is nonsense, the government you get with Democracy is like America, France and the rest of Europe along with their 100 million deaths of the 20th century. The same is true for the Soviets, the Chinese, the Cambodians etc. The deaths were an acceptable collateral damage or they would not have been accomplished. Compared to that the one human sacrifice of the Pawnees and the few deaths accomplished in competitive raids on neighbors are almost non-existant and yet the story is about how violent the Pawnee were for facing death in the face and not doing it from 10,000 feet or twenty miles. My point Selma is that there is no righteousness here, just difference and each group has its own way of answering the eternal questions and creating a system that they can live with. Tradition is ignored and thrown away at great risk. Tradition is the learning of a million years of human evolution in each flower of every culture around the world. Tradition and its psycho-physical artifacts is the stereotype, the contextual frame, that we all place around our life and culture. those assumptions about the group may or may not be based on factual evidence. We mix up the original meaning of Stereotype with plain old guessing and lying about other peoples.I would prefer we not degrade the word from its original meaning and its usefulness.Instead call a spade a spade. Assumptions are either based upon serious observation or they are projections based upon wish and hearsay.Europe has a tradition of writing everything from the library where they are researching their paper. In fact the great debate between Aristotilian Logic and Scientific Observation has to do with whether it is appropriate to actually count the teeth in the donkey's mouth or to deduce it from the books in your library. We do the same thing now with the internet and the search engines.But any serious scholar can pick out the junk in this machine. Junk put there for various self-serving reasons by people from around the world.They even make the library sick for the same reasons. Call it what it is. Lies, ignorance, chauvinism, provenciality etc. But we don't throw out the libraries.Library has not become a demeaned word in spite of the abuses and we still use our computers.The confusion of words like Stereotype, Library, Computer, Productivity etc is that it was lifted from its original purpose and has cast a long shadow over the values of convention and tradition ending up making the Creative as the opposite of Tradition. Doesn't make sense to me. Does it to you? REH - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Stereotype comes from the frame that exists as the heading of a newspaper. It is not the daily news, it simply implies ownership. REH - Original
RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Selma, I respect your views. Taken to an extreme, however, political correctness is a form of fascism. As I said earlier, private thoughts are one thing and public actions another. All persons (public or private) should behave in a civil way to others. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:45 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Arthur, There is a whole world of difference between You can't legislate morality and the fact that the use of stereotypes in conversation, in books, in lectures, in the media, etc. is intricately connected to what people DO. I do not think it is okay for public figures, people who have positions of responsibility of any kind, e.g., teachers, public speakers, people operating in the business world, etc. to assume that stereotypes are harmless.For example, I do not think it is okay for people in the business world to create an atmosphere in which it is considered perfectly appropriate and not at all harmful for employers and other employees to espouse their racist, homophobic and sexist stereotypes to their hearts content, or even- at all. Please tell me whether you think that it is perfectly okay and allowable for employers or other employees espouse about their sexist stereotypes in the workplace, or for elementary school teachers to do that, or for police to talk about and condone their homophobic racist and sexist stereotypes as long as they don't act on it. Do you really believe there is no connection?!! When it comes to private conversations, or perhaps semi-private- such as we are having here- I refuse to allow racist, sexist, classist or homophobic comments to pass without saying something about what I consider to be gross ignorance that has to be noted and commented on and by no means allowed to pass as okay. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:40 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, I am with Goldwater who said in 1964 you can't legislate morality. I agree. There was a comedian, Georgie Jessel I think, who said ...you can be arrested for what you are thinking. I think he was referring to salacious thoughts. But my question is: Who cares what people are thinking? What matters is actions. To the extent that public policy is set up to act on stereotypes, there may be some harm. (Racial profiling, for example.) To the extent that people harbour private stereotypes and act on them, I don't see any harm as long as those actions don't translate into aggressive, threatening or unpleasant behaviour. If I choose to avoid some group of people (defined by sex, type of work, colour of hair, race, or whatever) that is my choice and probably my loss. But it is my choice. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:39 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I just need a little more clarification, Arthur, as much as it appears that you would prefer not to continue this conversation: In one sentence you say stereotypes are sometimes harmful and sometimes are not; in the next sentence you say that you don't think stereotypes are harmful. Please clarify. I think this is a very important issue for many reasons: it afftects how we treat each other as individuals; it affects how nations treat each other; religious groups; it affects policies about schools, work, families, zoning,police behavior, hiring practices, etc. etc. etc. I believe it is as important as any issue discussed on this list and would hate to think it is being dismissed as not important enough to be discussed. I would like to know if there is anyone else on this list that thinks that harmful stereotypes are important for the welfare of societies and the human species. Perhaps everyone believes that this is not an important issue? That certainly says something about this list, doesn't it. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I didn't say that stereotypes were harmful. Sometimes they are sometimes not. You seem to think that stereotypes are harmful. I don't. Perhaps we can agree to disagree. And yes, I do change my views on many things. Its called learning. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
And are you saying, Arthur, that language and behavior are not connected? Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, I respect your views. Taken to an extreme, however, political correctness is a form of fascism. As I said earlier, private thoughts are one thing and public actions another. All persons (public or private) should behave in a civil way to others. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:45 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Arthur, There is a whole world of difference between You can't legislate morality and the fact that the use of stereotypes in conversation, in books, in lectures, in the media, etc. is intricately connected to what people DO. I do not think it is okay for public figures, people who have positions of responsibility of any kind, e.g., teachers, public speakers, people operating in the business world, etc. to assume that stereotypes are harmless.For example, I do not think it is okay for people in the business world to create an atmosphere in which it is considered perfectly appropriate and not at all harmful for employers and other employees to espouse their racist, homophobic and sexist stereotypes to their hearts content, or even- at all. Please tell me whether you think that it is perfectly okay and allowable for employers or other employees espouse about their sexist stereotypes in the workplace, or for elementary school teachers to do that, or for police to talk about and condone their homophobic racist and sexist stereotypes as long as they don't act on it. Do you really believe there is no connection?!! When it comes to private conversations, or perhaps semi-private- such as we are having here- I refuse to allow racist, sexist, classist or homophobic comments to pass without saying something about what I consider to be gross ignorance that has to be noted and commented on and by no means allowed to pass as okay. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:40 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, I am with Goldwater who said in 1964 you can't legislate morality. I agree. There was a comedian, Georgie Jessel I think, who said ...you can be arrested for what you are thinking. I think he was referring to salacious thoughts. But my question is: Who cares what people are thinking? What matters is actions. To the extent that public policy is set up to act on stereotypes, there may be some harm. (Racial profiling, for example.) To the extent that people harbour private stereotypes and act on them, I don't see any harm as long as those actions don't translate into aggressive, threatening or unpleasant behaviour. If I choose to avoid some group of people (defined by sex, type of work, colour of hair, race, or whatever) that is my choice and probably my loss. But it is my choice. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:39 PM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I just need a little more clarification, Arthur, as much as it appears that you would prefer not to continue this conversation: In one sentence you say stereotypes are sometimes harmful and sometimes are not; in the next sentence you say that you don't think stereotypes are harmful. Please clarify. I think this is a very important issue for many reasons: it afftects how we treat each other as individuals; it affects how nations treat each other; religious groups; it affects policies about schools, work, families, zoning,police behavior, hiring practices, etc. etc. etc. I believe it is as important as any issue discussed on this list and would hate to think it is being dismissed as not important enough to be discussed. I would like to know if there is anyone else on this list that thinks that harmful stereotypes are important for the welfare of societies and the human species. Perhaps everyone believes that this is not an important issue? That certainly says something about this list, doesn't it. Selma - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff!
Ray, Back in the 70's, Iran was the threat even though they made a mess of things - executing their army top brass and killing and jailing their pilots. (What a shower, the lot of them are.) They also took US hostages and we had a disaster trying to rescue them. It didn't go the way it goes in the movies. Maybe Bruce Willis should have been brought in to run it. Iraq was considered a stable country separating the Islamic countries. My God! They extended from Pakistan across the world - poking into the USSR - all the way to the environs of Saudi Arabia. Except that Saddam would keep things steady. This giving the green light bit that keeps coming up is nonsense. We didn't like Iran, but sending Saddam's Soviet tanks there wasn't part of any deal. We didn't allow Saddam to invade Iran and Kuwait. It was his idea all the way. But the US is condemned for not interfering, just as she is now condemned for interfering. It's a tough world we live in. But, not at dinner-time, when we will fill up on corned beef and cabbage. All I'm allowed to do is peel the potatoes (which is why our meals are so good). Perhaps it will be our last peace-time meal for a while. Harry Ray wrote: Harry, Journalist Robert Parry was vindicated by Oklahoma Republican Judge Walsh in the Iran/Contra Affair while he was lacerated by the major media which boycotted him. I have found him to be correct on almost every point from the CIA and Ollie North connection to the murder of hundreds of thousands of Mayan Indian People in Central America to putting drugs on the street in the Black Ghetto of LA.How's that for your own government using chemical warfare against a segment of the population? When you look at only one side of a double deal, it always looks OK but the US was dealing from a revolving position of Democrats and Republicans supporting their own favorites. I don't know why the US government thinks that a good guy/bad guy routine is OK to play with other governments that don't change leaders as often and often get more professionalism from their Civil Service than we do with our mandated change.It puts our Baby President into such a double bind around competence that even a despot like Sadaam can make a fool out of them in the world courts.It does not help that Bush has shown that he is constitutionally incapable of building on anything the Clinton Administration, that defeated his Daddy, did whether in domestic or foreign policy.He came in with a loud mouth shooting down 8 years of careful work before he even examined it. Bush has systematically threatened the environment, the poor, the elderly and the middle class and has publicly called into question US compliance with many International treaties (why should I as an Indian be surprised at that? because it used to be the Democrats who did such things but the racist militant Dixiecrats are now Republicans.). Anyway, I think you are naive about the Iraq connection.I believe you are manifesting a typical attitude that causes the militant side of all governments to believe that it is OK for them to lie with impunity because everyone else is potentially a criminal. (Realpolitik)So pre-emption becomes OK whether in Watts, Bedford Styvesant, Wounded Knee, the New Jersey Turnpike or the Middle East. It is interesting that the conservative pundit William O'Riley had supported racial profiling until his Irish Catholic Tuchas was stopped by the Homeland Security. Reality is tough even for pundits. Here is the Carter segment of Parry's article on consortiumnews.com. Just to show you that I can give equal disdain, I believe that Carter should have confessed this to the Nobel Committee and that would have given much more credence to his concern for world peace. As it is, it wasn't his finest hour. At this point I would like to make one thing perfectly clear to the list. My position on this war is that the Bush administration will win it with no trouble whatsoever. Frankly, standing on the other side of an artillery barrage from 20 miles away coordinated by computer to begin simultaneously and continue on a rhythmic basis over a period of time is so unbelievably horrible that I can't imagine any but the fool not giving up. There is no luck in such a situation.I have no doubt that many of the ancient archeological treasures of the world will no longer exist and human history will have succumbed to the same mentality that destroyed the Buddist Statues in Afganistan.This is not a war.There is no escape from such a situation other than immediately giving up. Guerilla Warfare is another matter completely. Unless you are willing to do what America did with my people, they cannot win a guerilla war.It is too random.Israel's only out in their guerilla war is to make peace and even then it is an
Re: [Futurework] RE: Drums of War (was Security Councils Responsibility)
Karen, As I noted in my post to Ray, The overwhelming arming and (after losses) re-arming of Saddam came from the Soviets. Plus 30 Mirages (complete with Exocet missiles) from the French for the Tanker War. Iran used American planes, which we may have kept going with a small provision of spare parts and so on. After the Carter fiasco, I'm sure we were glad that Saddam invaded Iraq. However, he did it with Soviet tanks and planes. I think our conspiracy was pretty effective considering the Soviets were paying for it. Harry Karen wrote: Ray, in my opinion, proponents of a Third Way alternative to war vs appeasement/containment are not ignoring the conspiratorial relationship between the US and Saddam. They are arguing their case for an alternative to war in the face of this current brinksmanship. I think I understand that you see these religious people as failed prophets, not like the fiery Old Testament prophets who denounced the King/established elite/society for their sinful ways. No, these Sojourners do not seem to be the Berrigan brothers, nor have they become Martin Luther King crusaders and I doubt they would ever evolve to a Malcom X rebel. They seem to be more like Gandhi, preaching nonviolent solutions. The strongest opposing voices have come from overseas, from the Church of England, the Vatican and Desmond Tutu. At this point in time we have failed to link the conspiratorial relationship between the US and Saddam enough to silence the drums of war. The confessional voices have been shouted down by louder voices whipping real fears into exaggerated fears, which is a group phenomenon in survival mode, I think. The loudest voices have addressed cause and effect going forward, not looking at the consequences of the past of which they/we were accommplices, a lamentable and potentially grave error. I hope that the lessons of our long relationship with the Middle East will become better known, as Americans finally learned (too late) the complicated weavings of SE Asian history late in the Vietnam War. I fear that we are about to recommit another long, costly and painful exercise in deliberate ignorance. Karen ** Harry Pollard Henry George School of LA Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (818) 352-4141 Fax: (818) 353-2242 *** --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 3/13/2003
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Devorah, I think that this is where we need to head on this: No more does he have the right to call Israeli politics Jewish politics. Jewishness is a whole other dimension, just as is Christianity, just as is Islam. I have been called anti-Semitic because I oppose right wing Israeli actions so there is a lot of learning that is needed and it is important that you express your feelings when you feel that another member of this list crosses over a line. I agree that Keith did so and feel it is an indication of the presence of anti-semitism [I like to use the word -Anti-Jewish since Arabs are Semites] on a wide scale. There is need to talk these things out and to educate other members of the list. I grew up in a bigoted household and have worked a lifetime to deal with my early childhood. I certainly have had a multitude of insensitivities and so, in attacking Keith, I also would need to be self-critical. I still am trying to deal with my anti-English feelings [my Scotish- Irish heritage]. Bill Ward On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:49:30 +0200 "devorah" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Arthur, there are things that are simply not "light". In this case, as Selma says, the attribution of qualities - good as well as bad - to genes is the basis for racism and sexism in their worst appearances on the world-stage. These are dangerous 'isms' and shouldn't be handled 'lightly' - but eradicated. Perhaps an even more important point is the fact that the current policies of the government of Israel are extremely right-wing in the sense of ultra-nationalist, uncompromising, and cruel. These are policies that have to be opposed, loudly and strongly. There are many people that are doing their best to counter them, to struggle against them - think of Uri Avnery and Gush Shalom, of Women in Black, of Yesh Gvul, and I could go on. So what has all this to do with a general stereotype of Jews? The fact that Cheney, Rumsfield, and Perle also share a perverse dedication to capitalist driven politics, to statehood, to power, means that there is an alliance of the right in America to accomplish an unjust war, and to undermine the UN. The supporters of Bush are about to perpetrate a catastrophe, but even as I condemn their policies and their deeds, I can hope that they are not the sum total of "Americans". Still, that's what they are - Americans. They are carrying out an American policy. And nobody, not even an Englishman who is habituated to hate-talk in pubs, has the right to assign anti-Jewish stereotypes to the American politicians he singles out. No more does he have the right to call Israeli politics Jewish politics. Jewishness is a whole other dimension, just as is Christianity, just as is Islam. Devorah Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 6:24 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I am trying to get us to "lighten up" Who among us does not harbour stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into the open. In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles or aunts or brothers past behaviour. In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt behviour of one group or another. arthur -Original Message- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of thing that frightens me so much on this list. Selma- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. Who cares? The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy to solve if we were face to face in a pub
Re: [Futurework] Conspiracies
Bill, Conspiracies aren't a big thing in my opinion. If you know about it, it's no longer a conspiracy. If you don't know about it, then nothing can be done. History seems less conspiratorial than the result of cock-ups. Less intended than accidental and inept. Harry -- William wrote: Harry, Re your words: We can talk of conspiracies (we do all the time, gang, don't we?) - but not of Jewish conspiracies. I am oriented toward conspiracies by nature. I also am strongly committed to a Palestinian State. 400 years of Turks, British, Jordanians, and Israelis is enough. The 2 state solution is fine and I realize that the devil is in the details. Therefore, I have spent a lot of time checking on the positions of highly visible Jews and have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of Jews are probably too indifferent to Jewish-Arab strife and that there are just about as many Jews who are aghast at right wing Israeli approaches as there are who support it. Thus, while I feel that Perle and Wolfowicz are taking positions that might lead to as many Jewish as Muslim [and Christian] deaths, there is no overall Jewish conspiracy. In fact, I am associated with a university that just had a long-standing battle with a Palestinian professor and finally fired him when the FBI moved in. There were as many Jewish voices among the faculty who felt that his first amendment rights were being violated as those who felt he should be removed. I personally felt that he was a poor representative of the Palestinian cause. Bill Ward ** Harry Pollard Henry George School of LA Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (818) 352-4141 Fax: (818) 353-2242 *** --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 3/13/2003
Re: [Futurework] RE: Drums of War (was Security Councils Responsibility)
Don't be so simple Harry, this has already been answered three times.You were around during the Cold War and all of that third world stuff.The Iranians were not our friends and Sadaam was the local secular Moslem state. He was convenient (and we had installed him in the 1960s) as was Democratic Socialism which we pushed all over Europe as an alternative to Communism since they couldn't stand Capitalism and its lack of serious culture.Do you truly believe that we didn't help and encourage him in the war against the Ayatollah's Iran?Is that a serious statement or is it one of your tricks? REH - Original Message - From: Harry Pollard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Karen Watters Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] RE: Drums of War (was Security Councils Responsibility) Karen, As I noted in my post to Ray, The overwhelming arming and (after losses) re-arming of Saddam came from the Soviets. Plus 30 Mirages (complete with Exocet missiles) from the French for the Tanker War. Iran used American planes, which we may have kept going with a small provision of spare parts and so on. After the Carter fiasco, I'm sure we were glad that Saddam invaded Iraq. However, he did it with Soviet tanks and planes. I think our conspiracy was pretty effective considering the Soviets were paying for it. Harry Karen wrote: Ray, in my opinion, proponents of a Third Way alternative to war vs appeasement/containment are not ignoring the conspiratorial relationship between the US and Saddam. They are arguing their case for an alternative to war in the face of this current brinksmanship. I think I understand that you see these religious people as failed prophets, not like the fiery Old Testament prophets who denounced the King/established elite/society for their sinful ways. No, these Sojourners do not seem to be the Berrigan brothers, nor have they become Martin Luther King crusaders and I doubt they would ever evolve to a Malcom X rebel. They seem to be more like Gandhi, preaching nonviolent solutions. The strongest opposing voices have come from overseas, from the Church of England, the Vatican and Desmond Tutu. At this point in time we have failed to link the conspiratorial relationship between the US and Saddam enough to silence the drums of war. The confessional voices have been shouted down by louder voices whipping real fears into exaggerated fears, which is a group phenomenon in survival mode, I think. The loudest voices have addressed cause and effect going forward, not looking at the consequences of the past of which they/we were accommplices, a lamentable and potentially grave error. I hope that the lessons of our long relationship with the Middle East will become better known, as Americans finally learned (too late) the complicated weavings of SE Asian history late in the Vietnam War. I fear that we are about to recommit another long, costly and painful exercise in deliberate ignorance. Karen ** Harry Pollard Henry George School of LA Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (818) 352-4141 Fax: (818) 353-2242 *** --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 3/13/2003 ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Harry, I realized as soon as I hit the send button what I had done. So it is clear that I also hold stereotypes, but I try to become aware of them and to be conscious of when they are exerting an influence on my speech and possibly on my behavior which is all I'm asking anyone to do. Selma - Original Message - From: Harry Pollard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma, I would hate to so stereotype Jews that I think a statement means the same to all of them. However, it means something to you. My impression is that it is a defensive remark by Gentiles to confirm they are not anti-Semitic. I used it somewhat dryly to make a good opening. Do you intend to read something into it to make it significant? Because I would say such a reaction is stereotypical of the anti-anti-Semite. But, I'm pre-judging, just as you did when you ended a post with: I would like to know if there is anyone else on this list that thinks that harmful stereotypes are important for the welfare of societies and the human species. Perhaps everyone believes that this is not an important issue? That certainly says something about this list, doesn't it. You asked the question - assumed the answer, and condemned every one of us - all in one paragraph. Not really the best thing to do. However, I would say it is the modus operandi of the anti-anti-Semite - to place others on the defensive. To push them into politically correct statements. It shouldn't be used on friends. However, can you believe that I say this without acrimony. It's just an observation and I think no less of you as I say it. The most emotional reaction from me is a shrug. Sorry about that. Harry -- Selma wrote: Harry, Just out of curiosity- Do you have any idea what the phrase some of my best friends are Jews means to a Jew? Selma ** Harry Pollard Henry George School of LA Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (818) 352-4141 Fax: (818) 353-2242 *** --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 3/13/2003 ___ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
Re: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff!
Well, you can protest all you want but the statement reads: 5. BOTH SADAT AND FAHD PROVIDED OTHER BITS OF USEFUL INTELLIGENCE. (E.G. IRAN IS RECEIVING MILITARY SPARES FRO U.S. EQUIPMENT FROM ISRAEL). IT WAS ALSO INTERESTING TO CONFIRM THAT PRESIDENT CARTER GAVE THE IRAQIS A GREEN LIGHT TO LAUNCH THE WAR AGAINST IRAN THROUGH FAHD. 9 talking points prepared andused by Secretary of State Alexander Haig in 1981. Was classified and now dug up and published for the first time by Frank Parry of Iran/Contra fame. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/haig-docs.html Say whatever you want Harry. Why don't call up Haig, he made the statement. But what do I know. I'm not a pundit just an opera director trying to connect the dots. REH P.S. note thatHaig admits to illegally selling arms to Iran through Israel in defiance of the US law. If that was a Democrat doing such things Anne Coulter would have listed him in her book on Traitors. - Original Message - From: "Harry Pollard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Ray Evans Harrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Keith Hudson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: Re: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff! Ray, Back in the 70's, Iran was the threat even though they made a mess of things - executing their army top brass and killing and jailing their pilots. (What a shower, the lot of them are.) They also took US hostages and we had a disaster trying to rescue them. It didn't go the way it goes in the movies. Maybe Bruce Willis should have been brought in to run it. Iraq was considered a stable country separating the Islamic countries. My God! They extended from Pakistan across the world - poking into the USSR - all the way to the environs of Saudi Arabia. Except that Saddam would keep things steady. This "giving the green light" bit that keeps coming up is nonsense. We didn't like Iran, but sending Saddam's Soviet tanks there wasn't part of any deal. We didn't "allow" Saddam to invade Iran and Kuwait. It was his idea all the way. But the US is condemned for not interfering, just as she is now condemned for interfering. It's a tough world we live in. But, not at dinner-time, when we will fill up on corned beef and cabbage. All I'm allowed to do is peel the potatoes (which is why our meals are so good). Perhaps it will be our last peace-time meal for a while. Harry Ray wrote: Harry, Journalist Robert Parry was vindicated by Oklahoma Republican Judge Walsh in the Iran/Contra Affair while he was lacerated by the major media which boycotted him. I have found him to be correct on almost every point from the CIA and Ollie North connection to the murder of hundreds of thousands of Mayan Indian People in Central America to putting drugs on the street in the Black Ghetto of LA. How's that for your own government using chemical warfare against a segment of the population? When you look at only one side of a double deal, it always looks OK but the US was dealing from a revolving position of Democrats and Republicans supporting their own favorites. I don't know why the US government thinks that a good guy/bad guy routine is OK to play with other governments that don't change leaders as often and often get more professionalism from their Civil Service than we do with our mandated change. It puts our Baby President into such a double bind around competence that even a despot like Sadaam can make a fool out of them in the world courts. It does not help that Bush has shown that he is constitutionally incapable of building on anything the Clinton Administration, that defeated his Daddy, did whether in domestic or foreign policy. He came in with a loud mouth shooting down 8 years of careful work before he even examined it. Bush has systematically threatened the environment, the poor, the elderly and the middle class and has publicly called into question US compliance with many International treaties (why should I as an Indian be surprised at that? because it used to be the Democrats who did such things but the racist militant Dixiecrats are now Republicans.). Anyway, I think you are naive about the Iraq connection. I believe you are manifesting a typical attitude that causes the militant side of all governments to believe that it is OK for them to lie with impunity because everyone else is potentially a criminal. (Realpolitik) So pre-emption becomes OK whether in Watts, Bedford Styvesant, Wounded Knee, the New Jersey Turnpike or the Middle East. It is interesting that the conservative pundit William O'Riley had supported racial profiling until his Irish Catholic Tuchas was stopped by the Homeland Security. Reality is tough even for pundits. Here is the Carter segment of Parry's article on consortiumnews.com. Just to show you
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Selma you said: Are you really trying to say that language and behavior are not connected? Not at all, but I'm not a Christian. I don't believe that admiring a beautiful woman is the same as being unfaithful. REH - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I'm sorry, Ray. We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. The issue, for me, is not whether people have cultures that influence how they think of themselves and how others think of them. Of course I'm aware of that. The issue is that words impact behavior in very powerful ways and when stereeotypes are used they can cause great harm and are used as weapons by those who would do harm and are used in ignorance by those who do not know any better. I, like Devorah, do not understand what all this discussion of cultural differences has to do with the issue of what harm is done by stereotypes. Please see the post I just sent to Arthur about allowing people in the business world to spout sexist, racist, classic, homophobic stereotypes and the issue in schools and police departments,etc. Are you really trying to say that language and behavior are not connected? Selma - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would define a stereotype as a generalization about an individual based on assumptions about the characteristics of the group to which the individual is assumed to belong; Assumptions or experiences with the style and culture of the group? Style and culture are always givens about every group. In the Arts a multitude of traditions is considered a richness but when one group holds the other to the rules of their own particular style and cultural product then everyone loses for one view empirically elevated to THE view creates a mind and spirit numbing sameness.Nothing is more strange than listening to Chinese traditional singers singing with a bel canto method taught by some Western Voice Teacher who convinced them that his was the correct method of singing everything. Convention, tradition, characteristics are the truths of a particular cultural universe.Let me give you and example.It is generally considered terrible to have human sacrifice, however many of these cultures who practiced it had a first hand connection to death and its results.Overall, they had a lower death rate than the groups that praised the worth of every human life and went to war to protect it and extend its principles in Empire. But this is not only the Liberal Capitalistic West but both versions of Western Socialism as well. Everyone claims that it wouldn't happen if it wasn't for people not being good enough at applying the principles. But that is nonsense, the government you get with Democracy is like America, France and the rest of Europe along with their 100 million deaths of the 20th century. The same is true for the Soviets, the Chinese, the Cambodians etc. The deaths were an acceptable collateral damage or they would not have been accomplished. Compared to that the one human sacrifice of the Pawnees and the few deaths accomplished in competitive raids on neighbors are almost non-existant and yet the story is about how violent the Pawnee were for facing death in the face and not doing it from 10,000 feet or twenty miles. My point Selma is that there is no righteousness here, just difference and each group has its own way of answering the eternal questions and creating a system that they can live with. Tradition is ignored and thrown away at great risk. Tradition is the learning of a million years of human evolution in each flower of every culture around the world. Tradition and its psycho-physical artifacts is the stereotype, the contextual frame, that we all place around our life and culture. those assumptions about the group may or may not be based on factual evidence. We mix up the original meaning of Stereotype with plain old guessing and lying about other peoples.I would prefer we not degrade the word from its original meaning and its usefulness.Instead call a spade a spade. Assumptions are either based upon serious observation or they are projections based upon wish and hearsay.Europe has a tradition of writing everything from the library where they are researching their paper. In fact the great debate between Aristotilian Logic and Scientific Observation has to do with whether it is appropriate to actually count the teeth in the donkey's mouth or to deduce it from the books in your library. We do the same thing now with the internet and the search engines. But any serious scholar
Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language)
Oh, Ray. I guess we still aren't talking about the same thing. Having a thought and acting on it are clearly two different things and don't always go together. That hardly is a response to the question of whether language and behavior are connected. I have tried to spell out in a number of posts the way sterotyping language might affect behavior in work places, schools, among police, etc. I'm not going to go through it all again; I don't really think you are unaware of what I am talking about. I don't know why you keep derailing the point being made. Selma - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) Selma you said: Are you really trying to say that language and behavior are not connected? Not at all, but I'm not a Christian. I don't believe that admiring a beautiful woman is the same as being unfaithful. REH - Original Message - From: Selma Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I'm sorry, Ray. We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. The issue, for me, is not whether people have cultures that influence how they think of themselves and how others think of them. Of course I'm aware of that. The issue is that words impact behavior in very powerful ways and when stereeotypes are used they can cause great harm and are used as weapons by those who would do harm and are used in ignorance by those who do not know any better. I, like Devorah, do not understand what all this discussion of cultural differences has to do with the issue of what harm is done by stereotypes. Please see the post I just sent to Arthur about allowing people in the business world to spout sexist, racist, classic, homophobic stereotypes and the issue in schools and police departments,etc. Are you really trying to say that language and behavior are not connected? Selma - Original Message - From: Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would define a stereotype as a generalization about an individual based on assumptions about the characteristics of the group to which the individual is assumed to belong; Assumptions or experiences with the style and culture of the group? Style and culture are always givens about every group. In the Arts a multitude of traditions is considered a richness but when one group holds the other to the rules of their own particular style and cultural product then everyone loses for one view empirically elevated to THE view creates a mind and spirit numbing sameness.Nothing is more strange than listening to Chinese traditional singers singing with a bel canto method taught by some Western Voice Teacher who convinced them that his was the correct method of singing everything. Convention, tradition, characteristics are the truths of a particular cultural universe.Let me give you and example.It is generally considered terrible to have human sacrifice, however many of these cultures who practiced it had a first hand connection to death and its results.Overall, they had a lower death rate than the groups that praised the worth of every human life and went to war to protect it and extend its principles in Empire. But this is not only the Liberal Capitalistic West but both versions of Western Socialism as well. Everyone claims that it wouldn't happen if it wasn't for people not being good enough at applying the principles. But that is nonsense, the government you get with Democracy is like America, France and the rest of Europe along with their 100 million deaths of the 20th century. The same is true for the Soviets, the Chinese, the Cambodians etc. The deaths were an acceptable collateral damage or they would not have been accomplished. Compared to that the one human sacrifice of the Pawnees and the few deaths accomplished in competitive raids on neighbors are almost non-existant and yet the story is about how violent the Pawnee were for facing death in the face and not doing it from 10,000 feet or twenty miles. My point Selma is that there is no righteousness here, just difference and each group has its own way of answering the eternal questions and creating a system that they can live with. Tradition is ignored and thrown away at great risk. Tradition is the learning of a million years of human evolution in each flower of every culture around the world. Tradition and its
RE: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff!
I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye. The following may clear up the question, if I understand it correctly. Iran had started bombing parts of Iraq and had sent assassination teams in against selected Iraqi leaders. The US was worried that the Iranians were going to invade Iraq and keep going into Saudi Arabia. The US made the decision that it was better to have the Iraqi army confront the Iranians than US troops, so the Iraqis were encouraged to mobilize and go after the Iranians, which they did. The US denies having in any way abetted Iraq's acquisition or use of chemical weapons against the Iranians. I am somewhat skeptical of this claim, but have not been able to pursue it. Cheers, L -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Ray Evans HarrellSent: Mon, March 17, 2003 7:58 PMTo: Keith Hudson; Harry PollardCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff! Well, you can protest all you want but the statement reads: 5. BOTH SADAT AND FAHD PROVIDED OTHER BITS OF USEFUL INTELLIGENCE. (E.G. IRAN IS RECEIVING MILITARY SPARES FRO U.S. EQUIPMENT FROM ISRAEL). IT WAS ALSO INTERESTING TO CONFIRM THAT PRESIDENT CARTER GAVE THE IRAQIS A GREEN LIGHT TO LAUNCH THE WAR AGAINST IRAN THROUGH FAHD. 9 talking points prepared andused by Secretary of State Alexander Haig in 1981. Was classified and now dug up and published for the first time by Frank Parry of Iran/Contra fame. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/haig-docs.html Say whatever you want Harry. Why don't call up Haig, he made the statement. But what do I know. I'm not a pundit just an opera director trying to connect the dots. REH P.S. note thatHaig admits to illegally selling arms to Iran through Israel in defiance of the US law. If that was a Democrat doing such things Anne Coulter would have listed him in her book on Traitors. - Original Message - From: "Harry Pollard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Ray Evans Harrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Keith Hudson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: Re: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff! Ray, Back in the 70's, Iran was the threat even though they made a mess of things - executing their army top brass and killing and jailing their pilots. (What a shower, the lot of them are.) They also took US hostages and we had a disaster trying to rescue them. It didn't go the way it goes in the movies. Maybe Bruce Willis should have been brought in to run it. Iraq was considered a stable country separating the Islamic countries. My God! They extended from Pakistan across the world - poking into the USSR - all the way to the environs of Saudi Arabia. Except that Saddam would keep things steady. This "giving the green light" bit that keeps coming up is nonsense. We didn't like Iran, but sending Saddam's Soviet tanks there wasn't part of any deal. We didn't "allow" Saddam to invade Iran and Kuwait. It was his idea all the way. But the US is condemned for not interfering, just as she is now condemned for interfering. It's a tough world we live in. But, not at dinner-time, when we will fill up on corned beef and cabbage. All I'm allowed to do is peel the potatoes (which is why our meals are so good). Perhaps it will be our last peace-time meal for a while. Harry Ray wrote: Harry, Journalist Robert Parry was vindicated by Oklahoma Republican Judge Walsh in the Iran/Contra Affair while he was lacerated by the major media which boycotted him. I have found him to be correct on almost every point from the CIA and Ollie North connection to the murder of hundreds of thousands of Mayan Indian People in Central America to putting drugs on the street in the Black Ghetto of LA. How's that for your own government using chemical warfare against a segment of the population? When you look at only one side of a double deal, it always looks OK but the US was dealing from a revolving position of Democrats and Republicans supporting their own favorites. I don't know why the US government thinks that a good guy/bad guy routine is OK to play with other governments that don't change leaders as often and often get more professionalism from their Civil Service than we do with our mandated change. It puts our Baby President into such a double bind around competence that even a despot like Sadaam can make a fool out of them in the world courts. It does not help that Bush has shown that he is constitutionally incapable of building on anything the Clinton Administration, that defeated his Daddy, did
RE: It's the testosterone (was Re: [Futurework] Powerful stuff!
Frontline is broadcasting an extraordinary two hour The Long Road to War that is a compilation of previous documentaries on our long relationship and history with Saddam Hussein. Take a look at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/ Karen I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye. The following may clear up the question, if I understand it correctly. Iran had started bombing parts of Iraq and had sent assassination teams in against selected Iraqi leaders. The US was worried that the Iranians were going to invade Iraq and keep going into Saudi Arabia. The US made the decision that it was better to have the Iraqi army confront the Iranians than US troops, so the Iraqis were encouraged to mobilize and go after the Iranians, which they did. The US denies having in any way abetted Iraq's acquisition or use of chemical weapons against the Iranians. I am somewhat skeptical of this claim, but have not been able to pursue it. Cheers, L Well, you can protest all you want but the statement reads: 5. BOTH SADAT AND FAHD PROVIDED OTHER BITS OF USEFUL INTELLIGENCE. (E.G. IRAN IS RECEIVING MILITARY SPARES FRO U.S. EQUIPMENT FROM ISRAEL). IT WAS ALSO INTERESTING TO CONFIRM THAT PRESIDENT CARTER GAVE THE IRAQIS A GREEN LIGHT TO LAUNCH THE WAR AGAINST IRAN THROUGH FAHD. 9 talking points prepared andused by Secretary of State Alexander Haig in 1981. Was classified and now dug up and published for the first time by Frank Parry of Iran/Contra fame. http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/haig-docs.html Say whatever you want Harry. Why don't call up Haig, he made the statement. But what do I know. I'm not a pundit just an opera director trying to connect the dots. REH P.S. note thatHaig admits to illegally selling arms to Iran through Israel in defiance of the US law. If that was a Democrat doing such things Anne Coulter would have listed him in her book on Traitors.
[Futurework] Eyes wide open
In a couple of days we will be required to worry about our countrymen and women and relatives sent to this wretched place by an alleged President. The following writer has been right in his predictions and explorations many more times then wrong although he has paid for it by losing his job with the major news services. His courage is admirableas is the courage ofour magnificent service people going to Iraq. I would submit that concern that all the ducks are in a row is not an unpatriotic act but one of simple prudence. We should not forget the past when we weren't properly prepared. A minority of the American People sent a profoundly un prepared person to lead the country and the possibility of a major disaster here is, in my opinion, more than just imagination. There have been articles in the major newspapers in the past about the International Court and the possibility that our support for the court through war crimes trials for people like Milosovic and Sadaam Hussein could open the door to examination of our actions as well. The NYTimes not long ago listed Henry Kissenger and Ollie North as potentials on that account. As soldiers from Serbia are brought before the court in the Hagueit isnot so much of a stretch to find some reserve officer from Ohio (as in Kent State) giving the orders to fire into a group of Iraqi civilians that they feel are threatening them. Remember Allison Krause and company at Kent State were UNARMED when the reserve fired. No one was ever brought up on charges. That could be far different considering the issue of International Courts that we have supported through our actions with Milosovic and now with Sadaam. I suspect they will just shoot him instead along with the suggestion by one of my more savvy students who remarked that finding no Weapons of Mass Destruction would mean that we would have to "make some." Are not such things the stuff of International Tribunals? Or am I just being paranoid? Here's your chance. Tell me. REH Kent State: The units that responded were ill-trained and came right from riot duty elsewhere; they hadn't had much sleep. The first day, there was some brutality; the Guard bayonetted two men, one a disabled veteran, who had cursed or yelled at them from cars. The following day, May 4th, the Guard, commanded with an amazing lack of military judgment, marched down a hill, to a field in the middle of angry demonstrators, then back up again. Seconds before they would have passed around the corner of a large building, and out of sight of the crowd, many of the Guardsmen wheeled and fired directly into the students, hitting thirteen, killing four of them, pulling the trigger over and over, for thirteen seconds. (Count out loud--one Mississippi, two Mississippi, to see how long this is.) Guardsmen--none of whom were later punished, civilly, administratively, or criminally--admitted firing at specific unarmed targets; one man shot a demonstrator who was giving him the finger. The closest student shot was fully sixty feet away; all but one were more than 100 feet away; all but two were more than 200 feet away. One of the dead was 255 feet away; the rest were 300 to 400 feet away. The most distant student shot was more than 700 feet from the Guardsmen. Bush's 'Double Jeopardy' for U.S. Troops EditorialMarch 17, 2003 by Frank Parry If George W. Bush orders U.S. forces to unleash his shock and awe onslaught against Iraq without United Nations sanctions, he will be opening American servicemen to a kind of double jeopardy. First, they will be risking their lives in a combat strategy far riskier than is publicly acknowledged. Second, any significant taking of civilian life could leave both officers and enlisted men liable for future war-crimes charges. Bush, who himself avoided military service in Vietnam and appears to have gone AWOL from his Vietnam-era National Guard duty, is putting young American soldiers and their officers in an unprecedented predicament. They are being told to invade and to conquer a country that is in the process of disarming under U.N. supervision. Plus, some military strategists see Bushs war plan as the worst sort of wishful thinking. 'Shock and Awe' There is, of course, the possibility that everything will go as Bush hopes. On the first two days, a bombardment from 3,000 missiles will shatter Iraqi military targets and leave the Iraqi people in a state of shock and awe. On the third day, Saddam Hussein's army will collapse and the Iraqi people will welcome the American troops as liberators. But more and more military
