Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] JUNK! RE: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 02:21:42 +0100 Przemysaw Macig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 99% of Your emails consist the previous one(s). THIS IS JUNK!! If everything what You want to say is in the 3-4 lines of new text, for what do You need the rest?? It's unreadable for me! Though my english isn't perfect, I really understand what I need and/or want - except emails like this with subject [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies ... Attach only what You need to attach - the rest is useless! Every emails are on the mail servers!!! The search engine really works and is quite easy!!! You can always ignore the thread. I think this thread is quite concise and to-the-point. So far, that is :) -- /~\ The ASCIIAndrej Ticho Kacian andrej at kacian dot sk \ / Ribbon Campaign GnuPG public key ID: 7CD93FE2 (pgp.mit.edu) X Against HTML Key fingerprint: / \ Email! E87D 9DEF 2A23 6FFB 7AD9 542F 4253 3A46 7CD9 3FE2 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Ciaran, My wife has this skin care system to which she subscribes. She's a fanatic. It comes with about 20 odd bottles of ointments, elixirs and various stuff. She painstakingly mixes and applies. It takes her well over an hour a day. For the record, that exorcise has very little to do with skin care or beauty for that matter. But I'd be the last person to tell her that. Gentoo has lots of stuff. You look very pretty dear. Regards, Brian -Original Message- From: Ciaran McCreesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 10:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies The Gentoo is difficult thing has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time, so please excuse the lengthy reply... None of this is intended as flame, merely as an opposing viewpoint. On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:47:37 -0600 brian connolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | From a business perspective... you've just set up 10 possible hurdles | to lose users and patrons. If it were Vegas, that'd be that game no | one played. On the other hand, by removing those steps, you're removing ten possible places for a user to set up their system in the way that they want it, and adding in ten possible places to annoy the user with sub-optimal defaults. I would find it very inconvenient if I lost control of any of those stages. If you disagree, no problem -- that's what GLIS is for. For me (speaking as a user with a half dozen Gentoo boxes), Gentoo has by far the easiest install of any distro that I've tried. Other than LFS, it's the only distribution that let me set up my discs the way I wanted them (LVM with lots of partitions, and a mixture of jfs and ext3) without making me have to second-guess what some fancy 'user friendly' tool might be doing behind the scenes. The Gentoo install doesn't try to force a load of unnecessary software on me (it's easy enough to fix it so that vim gets installed rather than nano). There aren't any ports open on the default install. I don't get the distribution's choice of desktop environment forced upon me by default. I don't get some awful generic kernel -- I get one that has what I want and only what I want in it. I don't have to compile my editor manually because I can enable or disable all those extra features using USE flags rather than having to rely upon a distribution's default settings. I get exactly what I ask for, and nothing more, which for me is perfect. The way things stand at the moment, there are a lot of choices to be made during the install. The install docs do a good job of explaining those choices, and they usually suggest reasonable defaults if you'd rather that someone else made the decisions for you. If you don't mind reading the documentation, there's nothing particularly difficult about the install. But what if I didn't want a super-flexible install, and would prefer to hide behind a pretty front end? Well, thanks to the GLIS guys, that's also an option. You need only type in two commands (assuming you don't have a wierd network setup, but if GLIS makes it onto the LiveCDs then this won't be an issue): wget http://glis.sf.net/glis-current-beta bash glis-current-beta and the rest of the install can be done from behind a cute dialog interface. From there, installing Gentoo is no harder than installing, say, RedHat, with the added advantage that it is possible to do selected stages manually if you prefer. Similarly, if you don't feel like making your own kernel, and would rather stick with a fairly generic, sub-optimal kernel, then genkernel can do all the work for you. So, really, Gentoo *can* be installed in whatever way you want. You can go for an install that doesn't try to be too clever for its own good, or you can let a pretty front end do all the work for you. The accusation of Gentoo being difficult does not seem correct or fair to me (not since 1.4, anyway...), and I'd wager that a lot of the complaints come from people who have not actually sat down and tried to follow the install docs. Yes, the surface is a bit different. No, there is nothing fundamentally different underneath. It's just that the choice between a totally manual install similar to LFS or a dialog-driven install similar to RedHat is there. As with everything else, during the install Gentoo does what the user wants it to do. Your mileage may, of course, vary. And, of course, if at the end of the day Gentoo doesn't do what you want, it also leaves you free to either fix it or choose another distro :) -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail:ciaranm at gentoo.org Web: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
brian connolly wrote: Ciaran, My wife has this skin care system to which she subscribes. She's a fanatic. It comes with about 20 odd bottles of ointments, elixirs and various stuff. She painstakingly mixes and applies. It takes her well over an hour a day. For the record, that exorcise has very little to do with skin care or beauty for that matter. But I'd be the last person to tell her that. Gentoo has lots of stuff. You look very pretty dear. While hardly a proper analogy, thank you for the compliment :) -- Andrew Gaffney -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On Monday 10 November 2003 12:36, Jason Stubbs wrote: The basic stage 1 install goes: 1) Set up networking 2) Set up partitions 3) Extract stage1 tarball 4) Chroot 5) Run bootstrap.pl 6) emerge system 7) emerge kernel 8) compile kernel 8) emerge syslog 9) emerge cron 10) emerge lilo/grub I guess some people didn't notice my point. The basic RedHat install is (or I believe to be): 1) Set up partitions 2) Choose packages 3) Set up networking 4) Set up lilo/grub 5) Set up timezone (forgot that above) 6) Set up XFree86 The only things missing are: 3) Extract stage1 tarball 4) Chroot 5) Run bootstrap.pl 6) emerge system (which you don't need to know what they do - you just follow instructions) 7) emerge kernel 8) compile kernel 8) emerge syslog 9) emerge cron (which are just extra choices which have recommendations[read: defaults]) Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On Tuesday 11 November 2003 01:11, Nathaniel wrote: So don't ever equate "pretty" with "less-useful" because if done right, it will let you do everything you want to do, your way, but it will be more efficient and less prone to error. That is the heart of Gentoo, your way, right the first time, and efficient. Well said. That inspires real confidence. Best Regards, Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:43:46 +0900 Jason Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess some people didn't notice my point. The basic RedHat install is (or I believe to be): 1) Set up partitions 2) Choose packages 3) Set up networking 4) Set up lilo/grub 5) Set up timezone (forgot that above) 6) Set up XFree86 The only things missing are: 3) Extract stage1 tarball 4) Chroot 5) Run bootstrap.pl 6) emerge system (which you don't need to know what they do - you just follow instructions) But it is better if you know what they do. Whole gentoo (IMO) is about knowing what things do, atleast I do not believe that you have to know about how linux works in order to have full use of gentoo. 7) emerge kernel 8) compile kernel 8) emerge syslog 9) emerge cron (which are just extra choices which have recommendations[read: defaults]) -- /~\ The ASCIIAndrej Ticho Kacian andrej at kacian dot sk \ / Ribbon Campaign GnuPG public key ID: 7CD93FE2 (pgp.mit.edu) X Against HTML Key fingerprint: / \ Email! E87D 9DEF 2A23 6FFB 7AD9 542F 4253 3A46 7CD9 3FE2 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian -Original Message- From: Tom Wesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] looking for gentoo for dummies On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 21:07, brian connolly wrote: Greetings all, I've tried seven or more distros in the last week. The conclusion: I am really looking for the gentoo philosophy and sophistication. I want a platform that is optimized for best practices and best tools. However, I am a newbie. As hard as I try, I am not going to be able to install for the documentation provided. As such, is there a gentoo version for dummies? Are there any plans for a more automated install script? Brian Connolly As others have suggested, you should probably force yourself to learn, but you might like to take a look at the Gentoo Linux Install Script at http://glis.sf.net. -- Tom Wesley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 17:47, brian connolly wrote: Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian Perhaps instead of something for dummies, it would be better for you to read the Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/index.html.gz software explanation: http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/node27.html.gz -- Phil Our 2nd CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/naomisfancy Naomi's Fancy performances: http://naomisfancy.virtualave.net/schedule.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
GLIS was recently re-written to clean up the code and include a lot of bug fixes. Right now, I'm working on a GUI for GLIS, but it will be a while before its usable. At the moment, GLIS is more for people who have already installed Gentoo and know what they are doing, who just want to automate the install. brian connolly wrote: Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian -Original Message- From: Tom Wesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] looking for gentoo for dummies On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 21:07, brian connolly wrote: Greetings all, I've tried seven or more distros in the last week. The conclusion: I am really looking for the gentoo philosophy and sophistication. I want a platform that is optimized for best practices and best tools. However, I am a newbie. As hard as I try, I am not going to be able to install for the documentation provided. As such, is there a gentoo version for dummies? Are there any plans for a more automated install script? Brian Connolly As others have suggested, you should probably force yourself to learn, but you might like to take a look at the Gentoo Linux Install Script at http://glis.sf.net. -- Andrew Gaffney -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Sounds about right to me. brian connolly wrote: In other words To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. What does he or she want do to? The Gentoo philosophy is to allow this user to do what he or she wants to do, without getting in the way. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies GLIS was recently re-written to clean up the code and include a lot of bug fixes. Right now, I'm working on a GUI for GLIS, but it will be a while before its usable. At the moment, GLIS is more for people who have already installed Gentoo and know what they are doing, who just want to automate the install. brian connolly wrote: Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian -Original Message- From: Tom Wesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] looking for gentoo for dummies On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 21:07, brian connolly wrote: Greetings all, I've tried seven or more distros in the last week. The conclusion: I am really looking for the gentoo philosophy and sophistication. I want a platform that is optimized for best practices and best tools. However, I am a newbie. As hard as I try, I am not going to be able to install for the documentation provided. As such, is there a gentoo version for dummies? Are there any plans for a more automated install script? Brian Connolly As others have suggested, you should probably force yourself to learn, but you might like to take a look at the Gentoo Linux Install Script at http://glis.sf.net. -- Andrew Gaffney -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
I think if you look carefully you'll find that these fancy GUI installers and sysadmin tools really don't help you any. I've used them on some other distros and found that I didn't have to have any knowledge of what was happening - I just pointed and clicked and hoped it worked. When it didn't I was in trouble - and many times the GUI didn't work. I decided not to use the GUI but find out how to do it and I've learned a lot - more so than if I'd stuck with the GUIs. The Gentoo philosophy is to let you do what you need, It takes an investment of time and effort to learn any OS - even Windows - and if a person is not willing to make that investment then they need to stick with the systems that provide the GUIs and not complain about Gentoo but they will be shortchanging themeselves. On Sunday 09 November 2003 20:50, you wrote: Yeah, I guess, if you like irony. Here's a rewrite to the Sven's philospohy: To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. He or she would love to try Gentoo. But the Gentoo philosophy is to frustrate this user with a lot of cryptic technical machinations. Then, as they go away, we will be able to think of ourselves as exclusive and pretty smart. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies Sounds about right to me. brian connolly wrote: In other words To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. What does he or she want do to? The Gentoo philosophy is to allow this user to do what he or she wants to do, without getting in the way. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies GLIS was recently re-written to clean up the code and include a lot of bug fixes. Right now, I'm working on a GUI for GLIS, but it will be a while before its usable. At the moment, GLIS is more for people who have already installed Gentoo and know what they are doing, who just want to automate the install. brian connolly wrote: Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian -Original Message- From: Tom Wesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] looking for gentoo for dummies On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 21:07, brian connolly wrote: Greetings all, I've tried seven or more distros in the last week. The conclusion: I am really looking for the gentoo philosophy and sophistication. I want a platform that is optimized for best practices and best tools. However, I am a newbie. As hard as I try, I am not going to be able to install for the documentation provided. As such, is there a gentoo version for dummies? Are there any plans for a more automated install script? Brian Connolly As others have suggested, you should probably force yourself to learn, but you might like to take a look at the Gentoo Linux Install Script at http://glis.sf.net. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] [OT] JUNK! RE: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
99% of Your emails consist the previous one(s). THIS IS JUNK!! If everything what You want to say is in the 3-4 lines of new text, for what do You need the rest?? It's unreadable for me! Though my english isn't perfect, I really understand what I need and/or want - except emails like this with subject [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies ... Attach only what You need to attach - the rest is useless! Every emails are on the mail servers!!! The search engine really works and is quite easy!!! Regards, Przemek PS. Sorry for my english! -- Email:pmaciag(at)inx.pm.waw.pl | Email:troll(at)trollmoors.dyndns.org Reg Linux User#: 303556 JID#: [EMAIL PROTECTED] JID#: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Bottom line: Gentoo's reputation is good... but definitely hampered by what is generally regarded as a difficult install. You know that. Now rather than do something, per se, the typical OS dev will point to various reference material to learn. They'll talk about how that's a good thing. They'll want the users to share in and relish their hobby. Excuse me... this isn't a hobby for me. I want to minimize the learning curve so as to use it (reread Gentoo's philosophy). Bottom line: the install is difficult, and unnecessarily so. -Original Message- From: Brett I. Holcomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 8:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies I think if you look carefully you'll find that these fancy GUI installers and sysadmin tools really don't help you any. I've used them on some other distros and found that I didn't have to have any knowledge of what was happening - I just pointed and clicked and hoped it worked. When it didn't I was in trouble - and many times the GUI didn't work. I decided not to use the GUI but find out how to do it and I've learned a lot - more so than if I'd stuck with the GUIs. The Gentoo philosophy is to let you do what you need, It takes an investment of time and effort to learn any OS - even Windows - and if a person is not willing to make that investment then they need to stick with the systems that provide the GUIs and not complain about Gentoo but they will be shortchanging themeselves. On Sunday 09 November 2003 20:50, you wrote: Yeah, I guess, if you like irony. Here's a rewrite to the Sven's philospohy: To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. He or she would love to try Gentoo. But the Gentoo philosophy is to frustrate this user with a lot of cryptic technical machinations. Then, as they go away, we will be able to think of ourselves as exclusive and pretty smart. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies Sounds about right to me. brian connolly wrote: In other words To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. What does he or she want do to? The Gentoo philosophy is to allow this user to do what he or she wants to do, without getting in the way. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies GLIS was recently re-written to clean up the code and include a lot of bug fixes. Right now, I'm working on a GUI for GLIS, but it will be a while before its usable. At the moment, GLIS is more for people who have already installed Gentoo and know what they are doing, who just want to automate the install. brian connolly wrote: Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian -Original Message- From: Tom Wesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] looking for gentoo for dummies On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 21:07, brian connolly wrote: Greetings all, I've tried seven or more distros in the last week. The conclusion: I am really looking for the gentoo philosophy and sophistication. I want a platform that is optimized for best practices and best tools. However, I am a newbie. As hard as I try, I am not going to be able to install for the documentation provided. As such, is there a gentoo version for dummies? Are there any plans for a more automated install script? Brian Connolly As others have suggested, you should probably force yourself to learn, but you might like to take a look at the Gentoo Linux Install Script at http://glis.sf.net. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On 11/9/03 10:08 PM, brian connolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bottom line: Gentoo's reputation is good... but definitely hampered by what is generally regarded as a difficult install. You know that. Now rather than do something, per se, the typical OS dev will point to various reference material to learn. They'll talk about how that's a good thing. They'll want the users to share in and relish their hobby. Excuse me... this isn't a hobby for me. I want to minimize the learning curve so as to use it (reread Gentoo's philosophy). Bottom line: the install is difficult, and unnecessarily so. Agreed. I am the original writer of GLIS. We now have a team of developers and we are working VERY hard on getting a great installer for gentoo. However, this will take time. Really, GLIS at this stage is just a difficult to use script. However, it is the backend (read building block) of some great easy to use installers. I hear your frustration and all I can say is be patient. Better things are coming, but we can only work so fast. Now, if we were paid... ;) JK! Nathaniel -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
On Monday 10 November 2003 12:08, brian connolly wrote: Bottom line: Gentoo's reputation is good... but definitely hampered by what is generally regarded as a difficult install. You know that. Now rather than do something, per se, the typical OS dev will point to various reference material to learn. They'll talk about how that's a good thing. They'll want the users to share in and relish their hobby. Excuse me... this isn't a hobby for me. I want to minimize the learning curve so as to use it (reread Gentoo's philosophy). Bottom line: the install is difficult, and unnecessarily so. Disagreed. The install isn't difficult; it's just that there are at least 4 different methods of installation interleaved in to the one document. The basic stage 1 install goes: 1) Set up networking 2) Set up partitions 3) Extract stage1 tarball 4) Chroot 5) Run bootstrap.pl 6) emerge system 7) emerge kernel 8) compile kernel 8) emerge syslog 9) emerge cron 10) emerge lilo/grub And that's the hardest of the lot! I'm not saying GLIS is a bad thing. A lot of users are scared of a console. Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Jason, From a business perspective... you've just set up 10 possible hurdles to lose users and patrons. If it were Vegas, that'd be that game no one played. Now let me clarify; I say business perspective, not to be confused necessarily with revenue, because in the end user relevance is essential to vitality and growth of any OS project. Brian Connolly -Original Message- From: Jason Stubbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies On Monday 10 November 2003 12:08, brian connolly wrote: Bottom line: Gentoo's reputation is good... but definitely hampered by what is generally regarded as a difficult install. You know that. Now rather than do something, per se, the typical OS dev will point to various reference material to learn. They'll talk about how that's a good thing. They'll want the users to share in and relish their hobby. Excuse me... this isn't a hobby for me. I want to minimize the learning curve so as to use it (reread Gentoo's philosophy). Bottom line: the install is difficult, and unnecessarily so. Disagreed. The install isn't difficult; it's just that there are at least 4 different methods of installation interleaved in to the one document. The basic stage 1 install goes: 1) Set up networking 2) Set up partitions 3) Extract stage1 tarball 4) Chroot 5) Run bootstrap.pl 6) emerge system 7) emerge kernel 8) compile kernel 8) emerge syslog 9) emerge cron 10) emerge lilo/grub And that's the hardest of the lot! I'm not saying GLIS is a bad thing. A lot of users are scared of a console. Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Gentoo was chosen for me and a few others I know because of the install choices and procedures and as a test. Now that I have been using Gentoo for a few months I can honestly say that I have not found a better OS tothis date. Personally I loved the install, it was fun, informative, interesting and challenging. just my $.02 On Sunday 09 November 2003 09:47 pm, brian connolly wrote: Jason, From a business perspective... you've just set up 10 possible hurdles to lose users and patrons. If it were Vegas, that'd be that game no one played. Now let me clarify; I say business perspective, not to be confused necessarily with revenue, because in the end user relevance is essential to vitality and growth of any OS project. Brian Connolly -Original Message- From: Jason Stubbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies On Monday 10 November 2003 12:08, brian connolly wrote: Bottom line: Gentoo's reputation is good... but definitely hampered by what is generally regarded as a difficult install. You know that. Now rather than do something, per se, the typical OS dev will point to various reference material to learn. They'll talk about how that's a good thing. They'll want the users to share in and relish their hobby. Excuse me... this isn't a hobby for me. I want to minimize the learning curve so as to use it (reread Gentoo's philosophy). Bottom line: the install is difficult, and unnecessarily so. Disagreed. The install isn't difficult; it's just that there are at least 4 different methods of installation interleaved in to the one document. The basic stage 1 install goes: 1) Set up networking 2) Set up partitions 3) Extract stage1 tarball 4) Chroot 5) Run bootstrap.pl 6) emerge system 7) emerge kernel 8) compile kernel 8) emerge syslog 9) emerge cron 10) emerge lilo/grub And that's the hardest of the lot! I'm not saying GLIS is a bad thing. A lot of users are scared of a console. Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Science is an atempt to investegate the mirical of life. The Martian Chronicles -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Actually, no I don't know that. I found the instructions good and usuable - I followed them and it worked. I use it, too as do most of us. I don't know what typical OS you used but on Windows, VMS, Unix, Linux I found books to read and asked about other sources of info to help me administer them - even on Windows which installs easily but when you have to administer or maintain it it is no different. If you're running a business you have two choices 1 do it yourself and spend the time to learn - even with windows. No matter what OS you are going to have to learn it if you run your business on it. 2 hire somebody to do it. In this case you don't have to worry about learning it. However, if you're going to do this I'd make sure they used Linux to setup my business systems. If you have specific suggestions file bugs on bugzilla. I know they would be gladd to hear them. Tell them where you found it diffcult or hard to understand. It may be also that Gentoo isn't for you - get RH or another distro. With RH you'll have to learn it to or buy the Enterprise and pay for support. On Sunday 09 November 2003 22:08, you wrote: Bottom line: Gentoo's reputation is good... but definitely hampered by what is generally regarded as a difficult install. You know that. Now rather than do something, per se, the typical OS dev will point to various reference material to learn. They'll talk about how that's a good thing. They'll want the users to share in and relish their hobby. Excuse me... this isn't a hobby for me. I want to minimize the learning curve so as to use it (reread Gentoo's philosophy). Bottom line: the install is difficult, and unnecessarily so. -Original Message- From: Brett I. Holcomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 8:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies I think if you look carefully you'll find that these fancy GUI installers and sysadmin tools really don't help you any. I've used them on some other distros and found that I didn't have to have any knowledge of what was happening - I just pointed and clicked and hoped it worked. When it didn't I was in trouble - and many times the GUI didn't work. I decided not to use the GUI but find out how to do it and I've learned a lot - more so than if I'd stuck with the GUIs. The Gentoo philosophy is to let you do what you need, It takes an investment of time and effort to learn any OS - even Windows - and if a person is not willing to make that investment then they need to stick with the systems that provide the GUIs and not complain about Gentoo but they will be shortchanging themeselves. On Sunday 09 November 2003 20:50, you wrote: Yeah, I guess, if you like irony. Here's a rewrite to the Sven's philospohy: To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. He or she would love to try Gentoo. But the Gentoo philosophy is to frustrate this user with a lot of cryptic technical machinations. Then, as they go away, we will be able to think of ourselves as exclusive and pretty smart. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies Sounds about right to me. brian connolly wrote: In other words To summarize the heart of Gentoo, imagine a user sitting in front of a Linux system. What does he or she want do to? The Gentoo philosophy is to allow this user to do what he or she wants to do, without getting in the way. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 7:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies GLIS was recently re-written to clean up the code and include a lot of bug fixes. Right now, I'm working on a GUI for GLIS, but it will be a while before its usable. At the moment, GLIS is more for people who have already installed Gentoo and know what they are doing, who just want to automate the install. brian connolly wrote: Tom, Ya think someone might write an IS-GLIS? This is how dumb I am... how do you install the Gentoo install script? Download the latest release... got it. Extract by typing the following: tar xvjpf glis*.tar.bz2 when, where? Run ./glis for directions what? Brian -Original Message- From: Tom Wesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] looking for gentoo for dummies On Sun, 2003-11-09 at 21:07, brian connolly wrote: Greetings all, I've tried seven or more distros in the last week. The conclusion: I am really looking for the gentoo philosophy and sophistication. I want a platform that is optimized
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
The Gentoo is difficult thing has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time, so please excuse the lengthy reply... None of this is intended as flame, merely as an opposing viewpoint. On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:47:37 -0600 brian connolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | From a business perspective... you've just set up 10 possible hurdles | to lose users and patrons. If it were Vegas, that'd be that game no | one played. On the other hand, by removing those steps, you're removing ten possible places for a user to set up their system in the way that they want it, and adding in ten possible places to annoy the user with sub-optimal defaults. I would find it very inconvenient if I lost control of any of those stages. If you disagree, no problem -- that's what GLIS is for. For me (speaking as a user with a half dozen Gentoo boxes), Gentoo has by far the easiest install of any distro that I've tried. Other than LFS, it's the only distribution that let me set up my discs the way I wanted them (LVM with lots of partitions, and a mixture of jfs and ext3) without making me have to second-guess what some fancy 'user friendly' tool might be doing behind the scenes. The Gentoo install doesn't try to force a load of unnecessary software on me (it's easy enough to fix it so that vim gets installed rather than nano). There aren't any ports open on the default install. I don't get the distribution's choice of desktop environment forced upon me by default. I don't get some awful generic kernel -- I get one that has what I want and only what I want in it. I don't have to compile my editor manually because I can enable or disable all those extra features using USE flags rather than having to rely upon a distribution's default settings. I get exactly what I ask for, and nothing more, which for me is perfect. The way things stand at the moment, there are a lot of choices to be made during the install. The install docs do a good job of explaining those choices, and they usually suggest reasonable defaults if you'd rather that someone else made the decisions for you. If you don't mind reading the documentation, there's nothing particularly difficult about the install. But what if I didn't want a super-flexible install, and would prefer to hide behind a pretty front end? Well, thanks to the GLIS guys, that's also an option. You need only type in two commands (assuming you don't have a wierd network setup, but if GLIS makes it onto the LiveCDs then this won't be an issue): wget http://glis.sf.net/glis-current-beta bash glis-current-beta and the rest of the install can be done from behind a cute dialog interface. From there, installing Gentoo is no harder than installing, say, RedHat, with the added advantage that it is possible to do selected stages manually if you prefer. Similarly, if you don't feel like making your own kernel, and would rather stick with a fairly generic, sub-optimal kernel, then genkernel can do all the work for you. So, really, Gentoo *can* be installed in whatever way you want. You can go for an install that doesn't try to be too clever for its own good, or you can let a pretty front end do all the work for you. The accusation of Gentoo being difficult does not seem correct or fair to me (not since 1.4, anyway...), and I'd wager that a lot of the complaints come from people who have not actually sat down and tried to follow the install docs. Yes, the surface is a bit different. No, there is nothing fundamentally different underneath. It's just that the choice between a totally manual install similar to LFS or a dialog-driven install similar to RedHat is there. As with everything else, during the install Gentoo does what the user wants it to do. Your mileage may, of course, vary. And, of course, if at the end of the day Gentoo doesn't do what you want, it also leaves you free to either fix it or choose another distro :) -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail:ciaranm at gentoo.org Web: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] GLIS for dummies
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: But what if I didn't want a super-flexible install, and would prefer to hide behind a pretty front end? Well, thanks to the GLIS guys, that's also an option. You need only type in two commands (assuming you don't have a wierd network setup, but if GLIS makes it onto the LiveCDs then this won't be an issue): wget http://glis.sf.net/glis-current-beta bash glis-current-beta This *was* true for the 0.7 version, but no longer applies. The current version is 0.1. You must actually do this: wget http://glis.sf.net/releases/glis-0.1.tar.bz2 tar -xjf glis-0.1.tar.bz2 nano -w config ./glis ALL config As I said before, I am currently working on a dialog-based frontend to create the config file. It then runs 'glis ALL config' and shows you the progress. -- Andrew Gaffney -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
