Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Hi! James Colannino [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm very against HTML mail, just for the record. That being said, aren't there HTML filters for command line mail clients that will strip tags from your view of the text and make it more readable? Just wondering. I'm using Gnus in emacs to read my newsgroups and mailinglists on a ssh terminal, so I'm stuck to console for the moment (not that I'd regret it, though :)). Gnus for instance supports the inclusion of lynx/elinks/elinks2 for reading HTML messages. Still, I prefer to read plain text for some reasons, especially because I have quote-highlighting turned on and that just works with the common or | tags in front of every quotation line. Regards, Martin -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
fire-eyes wrote: On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 20:17 -0700, James Colannino wrote: I'm very against HTML mail, just for the record. That being said, aren't there HTML filters for command line mail clients that will strip tags from your view of the text and make it more readable? Just wondering. A major point is that people should not have to do anything like that -- html on mailing lists has long been regarded as bad. I know, and I agree. I was just wondering (as I stated above)... James -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 05/21/05 22:02, David Stanek wrote: On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 07:52:59PM -0400, Peng wrote: On 05/21/05 16:26, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Monday 02 May 2005 04:33 pm, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 02 May 2005 21:00:30 +, Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to, asking people to turn it off wont work much, better to make a better argument and ask the developers to dist it without html as default. Remember that when you ask a question in HTML and the person that really knows the answer does even read it because he is too time straped to sort the message from the decorations. While I can't say I answer that many questions here, I am one of those troublesome users that refuses to read HTML email, even though my client (KMail or Firefox/Horde, depending on where I'm at) supports it. [I turn support off, as both a security precaution and personal preference.] I don't even read HTML replies to my own questions. I figure anyone that won't turn off HTML for mailing list posts couldn't possibly provide me with any useful information. ;) How is HTML a security risk? JavaScript could be, I suppose, but HTML? One thing that frustrates me about HTML email is the fact that people put ping tags in it. Not much of a security issue, but I wouldn't like it if I accidentially opened up spam only to confirm my email address. As far as security, if the browser supports Java or JavaScript then bad things can happen. Or possibly an exploit for the HTML rendering engine. Many more chances for bad things to happen...thats why I use Mutt-ng :D ping tags? What do you mean? Just an image or something that loads off of the server and confirms your email address or an actual tag or what? Meh. I do not have JavaScript enabled in Thunderbird, and I don't even know if it can have Java support. And I'm just not too worried about an HTML vulnerability. And if there is one, I'm quite sure Mozilla will fix it promptly. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 22/05/05, Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05/21/05 22:02, David Stanek wrote: As far as security, if the browser supports Java or JavaScript then bad things can happen. Or possibly an exploit for the HTML rendering engine. Many more chances for bad things to happen...thats why I use Mutt-ng :D ping tags? What do you mean? Just an image or something that loads off of the server and confirms your email address or an actual tag or what? Meh. I do not have JavaScript enabled in Thunderbird, and I don't even know if it can have Java support. And I'm just not too worried about an HTML vulnerability. And if there is one, I'm quite sure Mozilla will fix it promptly. Have you had any chance to read your emails under a command line environment? I bet you won't like it, :P -- Joe -- Money can't buy everything. Sometimes money can't even buy a gun... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Sun, 22 May 2005, Peng wrote: Meh. I do not have JavaScript enabled in Thunderbird, and I don't even know if it can have Java support. And I'm just not too worried about an HTML vulnerability. And if there is one, I'm quite sure Mozilla will fix it promptly. I dont know why people are even discussing this. Posting in HTML is an absolute NO NO. It ignores those people that dont have (or want) HTML support in their email software and is poor netiquette. -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Sunday 22 May 2005 19:21, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | I dont know why people are even discussing this. Posting in HTML is an | absolute NO NO. It ignores those people that dont have (or want) HTML | support in their email software and is poor netiquette. They're discussing it because no-one has yet requested that infra block all HTML emails to the list. that means, if someone (like me) requests blocking of html-mails on the list-servers, this discussion will be gone? (well of course.. when no html-mails are coming through, nobody can dsiscuss them...) Then I request blocking all html-mails! Take that, stupid discussion! ;) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 01:15 Mon 23 May , Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: that means, if someone (like me) requests blocking of html-mails on the list-servers, this discussion will be gone? (well of course.. when no html-mails are coming through, nobody can dsiscuss them...) Then I request blocking all html-mails! Take that, stupid discussion! I think the chances of anyone from infra reading this thread (or still reading it after it's been dragged out for so long) are pretty unlikely. Feel free to create a bug at bugs.gentoo.org about it though -- djm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Then I request blocking all html-mails! Take that, stupid discussion! I think the chances of anyone from infra reading this thread (or still reading it after it's been dragged out for so long) are pretty unlikely. Feel free to create a bug at bugs.gentoo.org about it though damn, I knew it, it was to simple ;) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 05/22/05 12:40, Qian Qiao wrote: On 22/05/05, Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05/21/05 22:02, David Stanek wrote: As far as security, if the browser supports Java or JavaScript then bad things can happen. Or possibly an exploit for the HTML rendering engine. Many more chances for bad things to happen...thats why I use Mutt-ng :D ping tags? What do you mean? Just an image or something that loads off of the server and confirms your email address or an actual tag or what? Meh. I do not have JavaScript enabled in Thunderbird, and I don't even know if it can have Java support. And I'm just not too worried about an HTML vulnerability. And if there is one, I'm quite sure Mozilla will fix it promptly. Have you had any chance to read your emails under a command line environment? I bet you won't like it, :P -- Joe No, I haven't, and I don't plan on doing it. :-P -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 05/22/05 13:10, A. Khattri wrote: On Sun, 22 May 2005, Peng wrote: Meh. I do not have JavaScript enabled in Thunderbird, and I don't even know if it can have Java support. And I'm just not too worried about an HTML vulnerability. And if there is one, I'm quite sure Mozilla will fix it promptly. I dont know why people are even discussing this. Posting in HTML is an absolute NO NO. It ignores those people that dont have (or want) HTML support in their email software and is poor netiquette. I'm not asking for the list to use HTML. I'm quite happy using plain text. I was asking why Boyd thought HTML could be a security risk. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Qian Qiao wrote: Have you had any chance to read your emails under a command line environment? I bet you won't like it, :P I'm very against HTML mail, just for the record. That being said, aren't there HTML filters for command line mail clients that will strip tags from your view of the text and make it more readable? Just wondering. James -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
I'm very against HTML mail, just for the record. That being said, aren't there HTML filters for command line mail clients that will strip tags from your view of the text and make it more readable? Just wondering. You can do it with procmail, but it's a lot less painful to just clobber the HTML posters with a frying pan. Something like this, I think.. $HTMLDIR=$MAILDIR/HTML :0 aBw * ^Content-Type: text/html.* $HTMLDIR -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 05/21/05 16:26, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Monday 02 May 2005 04:33 pm, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 02 May 2005 21:00:30 +, Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to, asking people to turn it off wont work much, better to make a better argument and ask the developers to dist it without html as default. Remember that when you ask a question in HTML and the person that really knows the answer does even read it because he is too time straped to sort the message from the decorations. While I can't say I answer that many questions here, I am one of those troublesome users that refuses to read HTML email, even though my client (KMail or Firefox/Horde, depending on where I'm at) supports it. [I turn support off, as both a security precaution and personal preference.] I don't even read HTML replies to my own questions. I figure anyone that won't turn off HTML for mailing list posts couldn't possibly provide me with any useful information. ;) How is HTML a security risk? JavaScript could be, I suppose, but HTML? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
The problem with this will be getting *all* the email readers updated with this *entire* feature, -and- getting everyone to update to said newer versions *or* programs if/When! -their- favorite didn't get updated for this. That said, it sounds like a FINE idea to me. Now, where'd I put that blamed crowbar? rgh. Calvin Spealman wrote: I know I said I was out of this conversation, but this off the original topic so I want to make myself clear on what I actually meant here. E-mails have unique identifiers, and replies include information in the header as to the identifier(s) of the original messages. Thus, if you have the messages (or access to a service archiving them) you could reconstruct the entire thread from just a single message. A protocol or format could even be created to designate where and how other messages are quoted, without actually including the content. This would be especially useful for very large messages and replying to multiple messages at once. Always there is room to move forward, so find the door that need's unlocked and break it down. On 5/5/05, Robert G. Hays [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Calvin Spealman wrote: snip it isn't like the bandwidth is anything at all compared to the bloated headers and redundant repeating of messages in every reply. snip -- is a good way to control redundancy factor And sometimes someone skips the original(s), and the later msgs become interesting, and someone needs to catch up. Sigh, no soution is ever perfect. rgh. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Kris wrote: Exactly ... but it's still has some amusement value Kristopher W. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Cliff Rowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:37 AM To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts? Trey Gruel wrote: and you're still wasting the bandwidth of the server and users. granted, for the individual user, the bandwidth used isn't that much, but think about the thousands of messages that the server has to send out for each mail it gets in. it adds up quick there. This whole thread is a waste of bandwidth ;-) flog deadhorse (tongue in cheek, of course) -- ...tongue...nose pinched, too! ;) And at least by flogging a --dead-- horse, we avoid cruelty to animals whilst still being allowed to vent unhealthy feelings that might overwise cause unacceptably severe damage like a flame-war or something... (trying to inject a little more 'amusement' here.) rgh. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Travis Rousseau wrote: On 5/3/05, Calvin Spealman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/3/05, Travis Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snipWhy not the sender's for now? Why not the recipient's for now? If the sender disables HTML, no one gets it. If the recipient disables HTML, then everyone gets what everyone wants. ou know with thunderbird you can set it per address? Travis R. When sending to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?!? Perhaps this list needs to have a configuration setting? Probably not... rgh. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Going by the same reasons of client differences, one could argue we never should have extended HTML beyond the first version of Mosaic. This is insane, of course. Progress is a driving force of technology. I use HTML to style code samples in my postings, and to add some pizaz when e-mailing friends. Plug, I enjoy the interface for it in GMail. If your text-only email client can't even strip out html tags, complain to the developers, not me. Progress should not be held back by the few who think there is any value in plain text. Instead of everyone keeping track of where to send plain text and where to send real text, maybe the recipients should take responsibility for their own preferences. I will remember to use plain text for this list, but let it be known that I don't want to and I shouldn't have to. If i knew I wouldn't get banned for no good reason at all (and it would be no good reason at all, mind you), I'd turn the HTML right back on. With XSLT styling, no less. We've all got our opinions. That's mine, and I know I don't hold it alone, not even on this list, so at least cut the arrogent attitudes about it. On 5/2/05, Dave Nebinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know people say it, but why? It's an extreme waste and provides no value. We're here to post questions and responses, not to create pretty pictures with colored fonts, etc. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tue, 3 May 2005, Calvin Spealman wrote: I will remember to use plain text for this list, but let it be known that I don't want to and I shouldn't have to. If i knew I wouldn't get banned for no good reason at all (and it would be no good reason at all, mind you), I'd turn the HTML right back on. With XSLT styling, no less. Don't use plain-text for me. Use it for everyone who, in any way, pays for bandwidth by the byte. This would be people who host servers or have a pay-for-usage account. HTML email is certainly not adding any value for these people. Quite the opposite, in fact. -- That which does not kill me makes me stranger () The ASCII Ribbon Campaign against HTML Email, /\ vCards, and proprietary formats. http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Progress should not be held back by the few who think there is any value in plain text. 1. Its bandwidth, while not much it does add up with fast mailing lists like this. 2. I like to cheap out on computers $20 or less, i find it alot faster with out a GUI. Instead of everyone keeping track of where to send plain text and where to send real text, maybe the recipients should take responsibility for their own preferences. Why not the sender's for now? Travis R. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Hi! Many ML subscribers are getting hundreds of posts every day. So looking through them takes time / is often a pain in the ass. Everything that decreases the screening process has great chances to be skipped, trashed, ignored. If my brain has to filter lots of stuff to get to the actual information / question I tend to just press Del. Since 99% of all posters use simple, clean plain text every HTML-post is something outstanding, needs a second (or third) look - slows me down. You do the math. Regards spox Am Dienstag, den 03.05.2005, 06:12 + schrieb Calvin Spealman: Going by the same reasons of client differences, one could argue we never should have extended HTML beyond the first version of Mosaic. This is insane, of course. Progress is a driving force of technology. I use HTML to style code samples in my postings, and to add some pizaz when e-mailing friends. Plug, I enjoy the interface for it in GMail. If your text-only email client can't even strip out html tags, complain to the developers, not me. Progress should not be held back by the few who think there is any value in plain text. Instead of everyone keeping track of where to send plain text and where to send real text, maybe the recipients should take responsibility for their own preferences. I will remember to use plain text for this list, but let it be known that I don't want to and I shouldn't have to. If i knew I wouldn't get banned for no good reason at all (and it would be no good reason at all, mind you), I'd turn the HTML right back on. With XSLT styling, no less. We've all got our opinions. That's mine, and I know I don't hold it alone, not even on this list, so at least cut the arrogent attitudes about it. On 5/2/05, Dave Nebinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know people say it, but why? It's an extreme waste and provides no value. We're here to post questions and responses, not to create pretty pictures with colored fonts, etc. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Heinz Sporn SPORN it-freelancing Mobile: ++43 (0)699 / 127 827 07 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Snail: Steyrer Str. 20 A-4540 Bad Hall Austria / Europe -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tue, 2005-05-03 at 00:37 +0200, Holly Bostick wrote: Done (just had to do it myself, since I've *finally* got Gentoo reinstalled --who missed me ? :) Yeah I was just thinking a couple of days ago, where has that stroppy Holly gone? why the reinstall? -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:16:34 +, Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Humm but when you need HTML email cause you get them, A little bit of a pain to disable them. Also working 19-20 hour days means I can do without (IMHO) needless things like turning off a function that I use. So don't. Just turn it off for this list. Ask yourself, why do you post here? If you want people to help you, rule 1 is don't piss them off. If you really want to continue posting in HTML, no one is going to stop you. Instead, they'll probably ignore you. So look forward to some fruitful discussions with yourself. dunno, next we'll be told to stop using HTML on our sites ¬¬ Here's something you may have thought of. Mail and the web are different media. HTML is specifically designed for web pages, email has always been well served by ASCII. -- Neil Bothwick Microsoft is to Software as McDonalds is to Cuisine pgpWSlv5I5m4w.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Mon, 2005-05-02 at 17:32 -0500, kashani wrote: Is there something especially complicated about going into your settings in Thunderbird and setting gentoo.org as a domain that prefers text emails? He doesn't want to, it's his choice. It is also my choice to filter mails from him which are also in html to my trash folder. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 05:16:10AM -0400, fire-eyes wrote: On Mon, 2005-05-02 at 17:32 -0500, kashani wrote: Is there something especially complicated about going into your settings in Thunderbird and setting gentoo.org as a domain that prefers text emails? He doesn't want to, it's his choice. It is also my choice to filter mails from him which are also in html to my trash folder. Okay guys, I understand the bandwidth issue. And I personally don't like it when people send HTML tagged emails. But is it really that hard to use ~/.mailcap? I mean if the mail is properly MIME tagged you should have no problem with reading HTML mail with a capable text-client. Mutt does it with `auto_view text/html' in muttrc and text/html lynx -dump -force_html %s; copiousoutput; nametemplate=%s.html in ~/.mailcap It's not like you can actually get ActiveX viruses from lynx W -- * Address: 45 Spelman Hall, Princeton University 08544 * * Phone: x68958 AIM: AngularJerk* *E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]From: sep.dynalias.net * Mulder: (on human psychopaths) The idea of such a human monster is as frightening as any X-File. The X-Files: Irresistible Sortir en Pantoufles: up 21 days, 23:33 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tuesday 03 May 2005 00:37, Holly Bostick wrote: Greg Donald wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex A. Smith MCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to Laziness is no excuse. Takes all of 2 seconds to turn it off. Just to prove it in Thunderbird: Edit=Account Preferences=Composition and Addressing=uncheck Compose Messages in HTML format. Done (just had to do it myself, since I've *finally* got Gentoo reinstalled --who missed me ? :) -- and this is thus a new T-bird install). Really, it's the right thing to do. HTML mail is OK if you're getting an email newsletter from a store or or Activision or whoever (it's not really OK, but at least the product kinda justifies it, and you can reasonably expect that it's safe, being from an authorized source). But there's no reason whatsoever to use HTML on a mailing list that might be read via 1) a text mail client 2) a text newsgroup reader 3) a gui mail client or news reader that doesn't support all the HTML features your mail composition program does 4) a web browser that doesn't support all the HTML features your mail composition program does (hey, there's a lot of GMail users here, and they could be accessing GMail via unsupported browsers, which drops you to Basic HTML view which could mean anything in terms of ultimate mail display, over and above the service's feature limitation that is explained for this condition) 5) on any computer that doesn't have all the same pretty fonts installed (unless you embed your fonts in the mail as well, which would cause at least me to come after you with --at the very minimum-- a big axe, and at preference, a huge amount of somewhat heavier weaponry. I hate people embedding fonts in their emails like my mail server has infinite space to hold their bloody mails so they can be as big as they feel like they want). you forgot point 6,7,8 (more general but still true): 6) Most html mails are just spam, so a lot of people will discard html mails automatically as spam. 7) html in mails is a screaming security problem. Nobody, who does not want to get tricked by a spammer, reads a mail without checking it first for 'bugs', that costs a lot of time (extra 10 secs per mail minimum). 8) some people hear 'html mails' and think automatically of the worst outlook and aol users ... ;o) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
ASCII? OK... talking about plain text is one thing, but ASCII? That's just dumb. If you are going to use plain text, at least agree that we need something better than ASCII. There are people speaking other languages you know. Thinking we should stick to ASCII is even more a sign of your stubborness than thinking we should stick to unformatted text just because you don't like it, even though you can filter the formatting out and leave the text the way you like it. Oh, but no, since you don't like it, no one should be able to use it at all. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. On 5/3/05, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:16:34 +, Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Humm but when you need HTML email cause you get them, A little bit of a pain to disable them. Also working 19-20 hour days means I can do without (IMHO) needless things like turning off a function that I use. So don't. Just turn it off for this list. Ask yourself, why do you post here? If you want people to help you, rule 1 is don't piss them off. If you really want to continue posting in HTML, no one is going to stop you. Instead, they'll probably ignore you. So look forward to some fruitful discussions with yourself. dunno, next we'll be told to stop using HTML on our sites ¬¬ Here's something you may have thought of. Mail and the web are different media. HTML is specifically designed for web pages, email has always been well served by ASCII. -- Neil Bothwick Microsoft is to Software as McDonalds is to Cuisine -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 5/3/05, Travis Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not the sender's for now? Why not the recipient's for now? One could almost argue free speech for expressing one's self in HTML, but I won't go there. If the sender disables HTML, no one gets it. If the recipient disables HTML, then everyone gets what everyone wants. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
If the sender disables HTML, no one gets it. If the recipient disables HTML, then everyone gets what everyone wants. and you're still wasting the bandwidth of the server and users. granted, for the individual user, the bandwidth used isn't that much, but think about the thousands of messages that the server has to send out for each mail it gets in. it adds up quick there. -- trey -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 5/3/05, Calvin Spealman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/3/05, Travis Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not the sender's for now? Why not the recipient's for now? One could almost argue free speech for expressing one's self in HTML, but I won't go there. Sorry i should have said that differently, Why not the sender's for now out of courtesy. If the sender disables HTML, no one gets it. If the recipient disables HTML, then everyone gets what everyone wants. You know with thunderbird you can set it per address? Travis R. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Trey Gruel wrote: and you're still wasting the bandwidth of the server and users. granted, for the individual user, the bandwidth used isn't that much, but think about the thousands of messages that the server has to send out for each mail it gets in. it adds up quick there. This whole thread is a waste of bandwidth ;-) flog deadhorse (tongue in cheek, of course) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
I'm sorry if this disagreement has escalated more than it should have, but I'm actually very partial to my end of this discussion. I know all the reasons people have to argue against my point of view here, but I just find it to be a rather arrogent point of view. On 5/3/05, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who said the text should be unformatted? There is a lot you can do with text to improve the readability and ensure your message is conveyed correctly, without filling it with useless tags in an effort to firce my mailer to use your preferences. How is me sending in plain text not forcing my mailer to use your preferences? No one said you can't use it, but its use is not welcome on this list (and many others). You an I are visitors here and as such, good manners dictate that we should abide by the wishes of our hosts. One of those wishes is to not use HTML mails. That's exactly what I have a problem with. The community tries to claim a love of technology, standards and openess, yet we hold on to the past in the oddest ways, achieving nothing but to hold back the rest of us. I'm not saying HTML is wrong, I'm not saying HTML is bad, but it is inappropriate for this list. All in all, I'm saying that everyone should have a choice in how they send and in how they view. And putting the responsibility of the sender only unfairly forces your preferences on both the sender and on many of the recipients. But, if the responsibilty was placed in your hands, those who don't want to receive the HTML, then you could easily have it filtered out of the e-mails, as easily as I could change my settings not to send them as HTML, as you request. The difference is in who the placement of the responsibility affects. It is unjust is take from all for the sake a few, when the few can just as easily accomodate themselves without the ill of the all. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Calvin Spealman wrote: Let's be honest, that's a fault of e-mail itself, which is inherently a horrible protocol anyway. I'm just saying lets do the best we can with what we've got. it isn't like the bandwidth is anything at all compared to the bloated headers and redundant repeating of messages in every reply. Prhps f w mss t vwls w cn sv sm bndwdth ;-) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
I believe this tradition, and other's like it which hold on to old idioms for little sensible reason, are more of a challenge to the community values than anything I can say. On 5/3/05, Covington, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bottom line is that on any technical mailing list, it's tradition not to use HTML. You can't argue against it using technical reasons, people aren't going to change their minds about it. And there might not even be strong technical reasons for it anymore: just about all browsers and email clients support HTML now, including pine and mutt, just about everyone has a high-speed connection, servers have faster connections, disks and capacity, etc. but it is the tradition. Heed the proverb When in Rome... - to challenge that tradition is to go against community values. --- Chris Covington IT Plus One Health Management 75 Maiden Lane Suite 801 NY, NY 10038 646-312-6269 http://www.plusoneactive.com -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 5/3/05, Calvin Spealman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but I just find it to be a rather arrogent point of view. Maybe so, but it doesn't change the fact that HTML is not acceptable on this list. Go ironfroggy, play with your MS buddies.. leave the arrogance to us. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 04:40:52PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: 8) some people hear 'html mails' and think automatically of the worst outlook and aol users ... ;o) Beg to differ here, but most of the emails I got from my friends using AOL have properly used MIME-Multipart/Alternative so it has BOTH a text/plain version and a text/html version. And I command mutt to choose the text/plain one for MY viewing. The HTML-i-ness only breaks on people whose mail clients have broken forwards when it comes to MIME, that attaches a HTML message as part of a plain text message and marks the whole damn thing as text/plain. W -- * Address: 45 Spelman Hall, Princeton University 08544 * * Phone: x68958 AIM: AngularJerk* *E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]From: sep.dynalias.net * Those who jump off a Paris bridge are in Seine. Sortir en Pantoufles: up 22 days, 2:49 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 03:00:34PM +, Calvin Spealman wrote: On 5/3/05, Travis Rousseau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not the sender's for now? Why not the recipient's for now? One could almost argue free speech for expressing one's self in HTML, but I won't go there. let's not let politics get into it. If the sender disables HTML, no one gets it. If the recipient disables HTML, then everyone gets what everyone wants. if sender uses multipart/alternate MIME, everybody gets what everyone wants. Besides, if you've already wasted bandwidth on HTML tags, whats a little big more for a copy of the plain text? q= W -- * Address: 45 Spelman Hall, Princeton University 08544 * * Phone: x68958 AIM: AngularJerk* *E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]From: sep.dynalias.net * The only skills I have the patience to learn are those that have no real application in life. -- Calvin Sortir en Pantoufles: up 22 days, 2:51 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Tuesday 03 May 2005 17:38, Covington, Chris wrote: The bottom line is that on any technical mailing list, it's tradition not to use HTML. You can't argue against it using technical reasons, people aren't going to change their minds about it. And there might not even be strong technical reasons for it anymore: just about all browsers and email clients support HTML now, including pine and mutt, just about everyone has a high-speed connection, servers have faster connections, disks and capacity, etc. but it is the tradition. Heed the proverb When in Rome... - to challenge that tradition is to go against community values. not everybody has high speed, and some of the high speed users are having volume caps. So please, I like to waste my share of the monthy volume on downloading, not html-mails -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
MS? What makes you think I have anything to do with Microsoft or Microsoft software? My HTML messages are sent straight from good-ole gmail. On 5/3/05, Greg Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/3/05, Calvin Spealman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but I just find it to be a rather arrogent point of view. Maybe so, but it doesn't change the fact that HTML is not acceptable on this list. Go ironfroggy, play with your MS buddies.. leave the arrogance to us. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 5/3/05, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is arrogant about saying when in Rome...? Every forum has its conventions of accepted behaviour. For this forum. those conventions include non-HTML postings in English. And what did they do in Rome if you did not do as in Rome? They burned you. Now, that is some arrogence right there. They are not my preferences, they are the preferences of the list. There's a big difference. But to take your point, with plain text, each viewer chooses how their mailer displays it, which font, how large, what colour etc. And, it is against the preferences of this list that I am making my argument. I'm simply voicing my own opinion that the preferences of the mailing list, the default, if you will, should be an acceptable policy of formatted messages, in HTML. If individual users choose to prefer text, then they are free to view the messages in any way they see fit. If they want to filter out the HTML and set their own fonts to view in, as many mailer will allow, so be it. Furthermore, I want to announce to everyone in this conversation that I am done with it. I make one little comment and it has been blown out of proportion. Everyone is getting far too worked up over this, including myself. I just hope that at least some of you will consider what I've had to say, and maybe the list maintainers will even take it into consideration that a policy change might be in order, given proper care of all the issues and angles invovled. Have a nice day. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Calvin Spealman wrote: MS? What makes you think I have anything to do with Microsoft or Microsoft software? My HTML messages are sent straight from good-ole gmail. sarcasmTypical blinkered response Calvin. You're either with us or against us. I'm sure I've heard that before somewhere.../sarcasm I've watched this discussion in the disbelief that people can hold the views of others in such contempt. I'm actually not fussed either way, but if pushed I'd say that plain text is probably the better format to use for a technical mailing list .. however that doesn't mean for a second that I disagree with your point of view, and I certainly won't label you as a result - that would just be plain rude. Personally I believe it's the responsibility of: - The sender to send in the format deemed acceptable by the host - The recipient to receive in the format they prefer - The host to ensure any formatting rules are applied In other words, there's room for everyone to get what they want - and it is possible for everyone to play nicely without petty arguments. Incidentally, I've just been back to the Gentoo mailing lists page, and re-read my welcome email and there is no mention of any rules against sending HTML emails. I may be mistaken. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Keziah W wrote: Yes, it is. HTML wastes bandwidth for every message though. True, I was just trying to inject some light humour into the otherwise pointless situation :) flog deadhorse Don't you mean flog deadhorse? :P -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Exactly ... but it's still has some amusement value Kristopher W. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Cliff Rowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:37 AM To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts? Trey Gruel wrote: and you're still wasting the bandwidth of the server and users. granted, for the individual user, the bandwidth used isn't that much, but think about the thousands of messages that the server has to send out for each mail it gets in. it adds up quick there. This whole thread is a waste of bandwidth ;-) flog deadhorse (tongue in cheek, of course) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Because a lot of Linux users use a text-only mail package, and the html stuff makes it *hard* to read. (I use graphical...) --Because this is what thy're used to /or they have limited memory -AND/OR- becase this is the Safe! way to do email. -- -- (Just look at all those *loverly* security alerts infection/wipe-outs in WhinedoZZZe partly because of accepting non-text.) Helpful? rgh. Calvin Spealman wrote: I know people say it, but why? On 5/2/05, Neil Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Calvin Spealman wrote: So its automatic detection of the features if possible, but USE flags if otherwise. No. There is no detection. Just assumption that AMD65 will support certain extensions. And please turn of HTML for posts in mailing lists. Be lucky, Neil -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 15:45 Mon 02 May , Dave Nebinger wrote: I know people say it, but why? It's an extreme waste and provides no value. We're here to post questions and responses, not to create pretty pictures with colored fonts, etc. Not to mention the fact that not everyone is using a client that supports html. People have better things to do than try and read emails filled with html tags. Plus, I'd like to choose what font colour, face, etc the text I read uses, not someone else. -- djm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Calvin Spealman wrote: I know people say it, but why? On 5/2/05, Neil Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And please turn of HTML for posts in mailing lists. Be lucky, Neil Because it tends to look like crap in any other mail client other than the one it was composed in. Or any other resolution. Or any other font. And so on. kashani, running 1900x1200 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Mon, 02 May 2005 21:00:30 + Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog That'd be the one without a spell checker? :-) Frankly I think your approach is arrogant. Mail is a text medium, if you want to do html, make a web page. As the old saying goes...When in Rome... wants me to, asking people to turn it off wont work much, better to make a better argument and ask the developers to dist it without html as default. My 2 cent's Alex A. Smith MCP ASMHosting.com Owner -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Mon, 02 May 2005 21:00:30 +, Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to, asking people to turn it off wont work much, better to make a better argument and ask the developers to dist it without html as default. Remember that when you ask a question in HTML and the person that really knows the answer does even read it because he is too time straped to sort the message from the decorations. If you want people to read your mails, make them readable. Does configuring your mail client really waste more time than writing mails that will be ignored? -- Neil Bothwick Ohnosecond: That minuscule fraction of time in which you realize you've just made a big mistake pgpRbfe7GqHI3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Humm but when you need HTML email cause you get them, A little bit of a pain to disable them. Also working 19-20 hour days means I can do without (IMHO) needless things like turning off a function that I use. I dunno, next we'll be told to stop using HTML on our sites And I'd prefer if you didnt call someone you have never ment and know nothing about lazy. For your info I'm 19, work 2 Jobs and run a small hosting company. That I feel is far from lazy. Alex Greg Donald wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex A. Smith MCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to Laziness is no excuse. Takes all of 2 seconds to turn it off.
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Humm but when you need HTML email cause you get them, A little bit of a pain to disable them. Also working 19-20 hour days means I can do without (IMHO) needless things like turning off a function that I use. I dunno, next we'll be told to stop using HTML on our sites ¬¬ And I'd prefer if you didnt call someone you have never ment and know nothing about lazy. For your info I'm 19, work 2 Jobs and run a small hosting company. That I feel is far from lazy. Is there something especially complicated about going into your settings in Thunderbird and setting gentoo.org as a domain that prefers text emails? Or setting up a list only account, like say $username-list, with its own settings in your MUA and turning off html emails for that account. That'll keep you from having this same conversation on any of the other tech lists. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Greg Donald wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex A. Smith MCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to Laziness is no excuse. Takes all of 2 seconds to turn it off. Just to prove it in Thunderbird: Edit=Account Preferences=Composition and Addressing=uncheck Compose Messages in HTML format. Done (just had to do it myself, since I've *finally* got Gentoo reinstalled --who missed me ? :) -- and this is thus a new T-bird install). Really, it's the right thing to do. HTML mail is OK if you're getting an email newsletter from a store or or Activision or whoever (it's not really OK, but at least the product kinda justifies it, and you can reasonably expect that it's safe, being from an authorized source). But there's no reason whatsoever to use HTML on a mailing list that might be read via 1) a text mail client 2) a text newsgroup reader 3) a gui mail client or news reader that doesn't support all the HTML features your mail composition program does 4) a web browser that doesn't support all the HTML features your mail composition program does (hey, there's a lot of GMail users here, and they could be accessing GMail via unsupported browsers, which drops you to Basic HTML view which could mean anything in terms of ultimate mail display, over and above the service's feature limitation that is explained for this condition) 5) on any computer that doesn't have all the same pretty fonts installed (unless you embed your fonts in the mail as well, which would cause at least me to come after you with --at the very minimum-- a big axe, and at preference, a huge amount of somewhat heavier weaponry. I hate people embedding fonts in their emails like my mail server has infinite space to hold their bloody mails so they can be as big as they feel like they want). Ultimately, HTML mail to a mailing list like this one is extremely inconsiderate without adding a thing to the content of the mail. And since the main point of writing to a mailing list is often to *ask for a favor* (please help me with this problem, o knowledgeable complete strangers), being inconsiderate is not really a good way to start. Nor is making the content more difficult to read. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On Mon, 02 May 2005 23:16:34 + Alex A. Smith MCP wrote: Humm but when you need HTML email cause you get them, I cannot understand *why* you need to send html mail in order to receive it? Thats a non-sequitur. A little bit of a pain to disable them. Also working 19-20 hour days means I can do without (IMHO) needless things like turning off a function that I use. I dunno, next we'll be told to stop using HTML on our sites ¬¬ And I'd prefer if you didnt call someone you have never ment and know nothing about lazy. For your info I'm 19, work 2 Jobs and run a small hosting company. That I feel is far from lazy. Alex Frankly, as someone who sees no earthly use for html mail ever, I say just switch it off globally. However you obviously have your reasons for needing it, and thats your outlook (no pun intended LOL). However, we would appreciate it being turned off in this list please. its a one time thing, as kashani has pointed out. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
On 5/2/05, Alex A. Smith MCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Humm but when you need HTML email cause you get them, A little bit of a pain to disable them. Also working 19-20 hour days means I can do without (IMHO) needless things like turning off a function that I use. I dunno, next we'll be told to stop using HTML on our sites ¬¬ Actually people here just said to leave the html for your sites And I'd prefer if you didnt call someone you have never ment and know nothing about lazy. For your info I'm 19, work 2 Jobs and run a small hosting company. That I feel is far from lazy. Big deal, I'm 18 (as of a few days ago) work 1 full time job 1 part time job, go to school, and run a small hosting company (200 clients) I work hard and know people that work harder than me, besides what the heck does this have to do with your settings? If you don't like the rules of the mailing list don't come here. Travis R. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] No HTML in posts?
Welcome back - wondered where you were! Well said - and who wants to receive a virus breeding ground in the mail G - no HTML! On Tue, 3 May 2005, Holly Bostick wrote: Greg Donald wrote: On 5/2/05, Alex A. Smith MCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time straped as it is, I'll type in what ever my Default Email prog wants me to Laziness is no excuse. Takes all of 2 seconds to turn it off. Just to prove it in Thunderbird: Messages in HTML format. Done (just had to do it myself, since I've *finally* got Gentoo reinstalled --who missed me ? :) -- and this is thus a new T-bird install). -- Brett I. Holcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Registered Linux User #188143 Remove R777 to email -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
