Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Thu, Sep 20 2012, Paul Hartman wrote: In newer version of portage you can add fixlafiles to FEATURES and there is no need to manually run the lxfilefixer program. Thanks. I hadn't seen this before. It is in the make.conf man page for my system which is ~amd64. So I assume newer versions of portage does not require the 2.2 (masked, but used by some on this list). Thanks again, allan
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:55:37 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: lafilefixer --justfixit. The last one, lafilefixer --justfixit is especially valuable as it gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a) while we are at it… does it still make sense to run it on a regular basis or can I purge it from my maintenace script?e
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Daniel Wagener wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:55:37 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: lafilefixer --justfixit. The last one, lafilefixer --justfixit is especially valuable as it gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a) while we are at it… does it still make sense to run it on a regular basis or can I purge it from my maintenace script?e I think it depends on your version of portage. Older portage versions needs you to run it and newer versions I think have it built into portage or another way to fix this. You may want to post what version of portage you are using to get a more accurate answer. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com writes: and for a simple reason: ml have always been. So 'old timers' and 'people knowing their crap' hang around those. Then came AOL, eternal September and forums for this new crop of lol users. And since like minded people love to congrate... And prior to the 'modern' forums, the quality of CompuServe forums was (IMHO) far higher than nearly all of today's web-based forums.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:33:05 -0700 Mark Knecht markkne...@gmail.com wrote: Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user, and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to be to use this distro. That's actually quite perceptive and correct. You don't need to be a genius wise-ass to use Gentoo. You just need to have some brain-smarts and a willingness to look after your own stuff yourself. Gentoo appeals to the same personality that kit airplanes appeal to. Some folks just love to tinker and build things themselves = a good match for Gentoo. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Alan McKinnon writes: On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:33:05 -0700 Mark Knecht markkne...@gmail.com wrote: Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user, and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to be to use this distro. That's actually quite perceptive and correct. You don't need to be a genius wise-ass to use Gentoo. You just need to have some brain-smarts and a willingness to look after your own stuff yourself. It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other distros. And the installation is much more complicated of course. But unless you need very basic stuff only, it pays off later I think. When you get into trouble, there are decent howtos that usually do not simply explain _what_ to do, but _why_. When you installed your own Gentoo, you already know a lot about Linux. And where to look in case of problems. Other distros often hide what's going on deeper, and that's nice when all works, but when not, you're screwed. It's also much more fun to actually _solve_ problems on Gentoo, than just googling how some other Ubuntu user 'solved' his problem by trying various commands that you do not understand what they do, but that might also work in your case. Or not. Wonko
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:43:09 -0400 Philip Webb purs...@ca.inter.net wrote: When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008, I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs. In Gentoo, problems are almost always just 1 layer deep, tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal. That's why we have a gentoo-user mailing list instead ;-) This mailing list is often noted out in the wild as a very high signal-to-noise ratio list, in my experience that is definitely true. The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) Instead we get, try USE=-* :P -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #01: No error... ...yet. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Turn off distcc Just use $automagic tool (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's doing) Just use dracut (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.) On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I never put anything there that -O2 -ggdb -march=native doesn't expand to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding to the wrong set of flags! -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
120912 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Oh no ! -- that's not my grannie's dog or even my mother's famous cat : that's all my own ... (grin) ! -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Turn off distcc revdep-rebuild And emerge -e world perl-cleaner --all python-updater lafilefixer --justfixit. Wonko
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. This can be done on a per-package basis, yet it's inevitably implied I should do it in /etc/make.conf instead. And, really, it's not hard (for me, at least) to repro and/or track down the source of parallel-induced build failures; they tend to have a pretty clear signature in the build log. If it's a parallel-induced build failure, I can look at the log and tell you which target should have had a different target as a dependency, but didn't. Last time it happened to me (months ago!), everything I needed was in the last twenty lines of build output. I only wish someone could pay me to do this stuff full-time, because I enjoy it. :) Turn off distcc revdep-rebuild And emerge -e world perl-cleaner --all python-updater lafilefixer --justfixit. Indeed. And in theory, portage 2.2 (yeah, yeah) should make most of that unnecessary. And I think the lafilefixer portion is now a default-enabled feature in portage. Not absolutely sure, though. (And I think you meant perl-cleaner --reallyall :P ) You should take a look at my gentoo install script and see how many of those tidy-up-and-rebuild commands it runs...and then a pair of emerge -e @world at the end to ensure any build-time dependent creeping changes work their way through the entire system. (And that's probably not enough, if you're looking for an absolute setup...it'd probably be necessary to compare checksums on files between runs and keep building until the setup converges...but that'd require being able to ignore anything that includes build-time timestamps.) -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200, Alex Schuster wrote: And emerge -e world perl-cleaner --all python-updater lafilefixer --justfixit. You forgot sync again. -- Neil Bothwick .-Stealth Tagline signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:33:14 +0100 Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) Instead we get, try USE=-* :P ouch ! -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Turn off distcc revdep-rebuild And emerge -e world perl-cleaner --all python-updater lafilefixer --justfixit. Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been done first before doing extensive troubleshooting. The last one, lafilefixer --justfixit is especially valuable as it gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. Turn off distcc revdep-rebuild And emerge -e world perl-cleaner --all python-updater lafilefixer --justfixit. Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been done first before doing extensive troubleshooting. The last one, lafilefixer --justfixit is especially valuable as it gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. snip And yet, for many who're in the daily job of working on other people's systems, notably on-site, the first recommendation for many problems is simply 'turn it off and back on again' because it does the trick often enough to be worth it (and can avoid going out to the system around 50% of the time, depending on the environment). Also, if you've already gone that route, and ruled that out as a resolution, stating as much generally tends to sidestep the initial few steps. -- Poison [BLX] Joshua M. Murphy
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Joshua Murphy poiso...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. snip And yet, for many who're in the daily job of working on other people's systems, notably on-site, the first recommendation for many problems is simply 'turn it off and back on again' because it does the trick often enough to be worth it (and can avoid going out to the system around 50% of the time, depending on the environment). Also, if you've already gone that route, and ruled that out as a resolution, stating as much generally tends to sidestep the initial few steps. You know as well as I do that anyone who claims to have already turned something off and back on again is assumed to be merely trying to sidestep those questions without necessarily having performed those steps, or with having performed those steps in error; that's true 99% of the time. You're probably also familiar with putting users through the basic steps just to get yourself to a diagnostic baseline. I'm not saying I don't understand why people push traditional cleanup recipes before actually trying to understand the problem. As an advanced user, it's just one of those extremely frustrating things, along with: * RTFM (hey, I did!) * LMGTFY (hey, it's not like I didn't search for myself, first) * Did you try rebooting? (uh...) In reality, nobody believes you really did your homework, presuming that if you had, your problem would be solved. After all, it's entirely statistically probable you've got another mundane problem like 99% of everyone else. And since they don't believe you did your homework, they'll ask you to do it again. Generally speaking, I don't _get_ mundane problems on a Gentoo system. I'll probably have dug into the source code before I ask questions. The last time I had an issue on Gentoo where I needed assistance, it turned out to be a glibc bug. I must have gone through at least ten people who each had me poke at the usual suspects. I lost _months_ on some of my hardware because of this. One of those machines is still down, but only because the system had previously had a long enough uptime that boot-impacting-only hardware failures creeped in and slammed me when I went to reboot. But, really, this all boils down to a simple case: Sometimes the user really does know what he's doing. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Am 12.09.2012 15:47, schrieb Michael Mol: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Turn off distcc Just use $automagic tool (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's doing) Just use dracut (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.) On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I never put anything there that -O2 -ggdb -march=native doesn't expand to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding to the wrong set of flags! Try the current overlay :) ( * having an epic battle with gnome overlay atm * )
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Michael Hampicke gentoo-u...@hadt.bizwrote: Am 12.09.2012 15:47, schrieb Michael Mol: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: The popular forum answer of my granny's dog's owner once ran this command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see if it repairs your password just does not ever get proposed here :-) Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Turn off distcc Just use $automagic tool (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's doing) Just use dracut (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.) On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I never put anything there that -O2 -ggdb -march=native doesn't expand to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding to the wrong set of flags! Try the current overlay :) ( * having an epic battle with gnome overlay atm * ) Formerly known as try the latest trunk or, if you're lucky, it's fixed in $vcs. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Am Mittwoch, 12. September 2012, 12:03:04 schrieb Alan McKinnon: On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:43:09 -0400 Philip Webb purs...@ca.inter.net wrote: When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008, I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs. In Gentoo, problems are almost always just 1 layer deep, tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal. That's why we have a gentoo-user mailing list instead ;-) This mailing list is often noted out in the wild as a very high signal-to-noise ratio list, in my experience that is definitely true. and for a simple reason: ml have always been. So 'old timers' and 'people knowing their crap' hang around those. Then came AOL, eternal September and forums for this new crop of lol users. And since like minded people love to congrate... There have been good forums in the past. Even now. But forums have a massive problem, even the great ones: if they go down everything is lost. Mailing lists? Mirrored everywhere. Including your harddisk. Mailing lists are archives. Forums are yelling competitions. -- #163933
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: SNIP There have been good forums in the past. Even now. But forums have a massive problem, even the great ones: if they go down everything is lost. +1 NVidia had some really good forums. They got hacked, passwords Account IDs stolen NVidia took them down. There were threads in there I had gone back to multiple times that I can no longer get to. Sad. - Mark
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. I learned that one the hard way :-) Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks: 1. nature of problem 2. what have I tried already 3. steps to reproduce 4. result gotten 5. expected result 6. relevant config files and settings Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers Turn off distcc revdep-rebuild And emerge -e world perl-cleaner --all python-updater lafilefixer --justfixit. Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been done first before doing extensive troubleshooting. The last one, lafilefixer --justfixit is especially valuable as it gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. I learned that one the hard way :-) Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks: 1. nature of problem 2. what have I tried already 3. steps to reproduce 4. result gotten 5. expected result 6. relevant config files and settings Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from sound-emitting websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work laptop) First response? Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound apps? #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates the X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching by the time I gave up... -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. I learned that one the hard way :-) Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks: 1. nature of problem 2. what have I tried already 3. steps to reproduce 4. result gotten 5. expected result 6. relevant config files and settings Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from sound-emitting websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work laptop) First response? Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound apps? #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates the X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching by the time I gave up... It is not a feature I use, but... I think you need the x11-bell module loaded in your PA config, and point it to a valid sound file containing your preferred beep noise. Maybe then also run xset b on in X... maybe some xset b something to set volume of the beep as well, and hope your desktop environment doesn't override your hard work with its own sound preferences. :)
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Mark Knecht wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: SNIP There have been good forums in the past. Even now. But forums have a massive problem, even the great ones: if they go down everything is lost. +1 NVidia had some really good forums. They got hacked, passwords Account IDs stolen NVidia took them down. There were threads in there I had gone back to multiple times that I can no longer get to. Sad. - Mark I wonder if that is why I get more spam? How long ago was this break in? I had a account there way back but haven't been there since I use Gentoo and have the FINE folks here to help. Who needs them when you have the Gentoo mailing lists. lol Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Paul Hartman paul.hartman+gen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. I learned that one the hard way :-) Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks: 1. nature of problem 2. what have I tried already 3. steps to reproduce 4. result gotten 5. expected result 6. relevant config files and settings Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from sound-emitting websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work laptop) First response? Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound apps? #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates the X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching by the time I gave up... It is not a feature I use, but... I think you need the x11-bell module loaded in your PA config, and point it to a valid sound file containing your preferred beep noise. Maybe then also run xset b on in X... maybe some xset b something to set volume of the beep as well, and hope your desktop environment doesn't override your hard work with its own sound preferences. :) xset is set properly, x11-bell module is loaded...but it's entirely unclear how to get it pointed at a valid sample file. Even PulseAudio's Perfect Setup page glosses over it. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Paul Hartman paul.hartman+gen...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200 Alex Schuster wo...@wonkology.org wrote: Michael Mol writes: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk mailto:n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: Instead we get, try USE=-* :P Try MAKEOPTS='-j1' Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS=-j --load=4, and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large. Yes indeed, and that one is good advice. Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j 1, so running it as one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not. Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.) It's like Have you tried turning it off and back on again. I learned that one the hard way :-) Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks: 1. nature of problem 2. what have I tried already 3. steps to reproduce 4. result gotten 5. expected result 6. relevant config files and settings Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from sound-emitting websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work laptop) First response? Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound apps? #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates the X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching by the time I gave up... It is not a feature I use, but... I think you need the x11-bell module loaded in your PA config, and point it to a valid sound file containing your preferred beep noise. Maybe then also run xset b on in X... maybe some xset b something to set volume of the beep as well, and hope your desktop environment doesn't override your hard work with its own sound preferences. :) xset is set properly, x11-bell module is loaded...but it's entirely unclear how to get it pointed at a valid sample file. Even PulseAudio's Perfect Setup page glosses over it. /etc/pulse/default.pa on gentoo contains this line (commented out): load-sample-lazy x11-bell /usr/share/sounds/gtk-events/activate.wav I'm assuming that creates a sample called x11-bell, then I think later on when you load the module, you would reference it like: load-module module-x11-bell sample=x11-bell then hopefully your xset commands might actually produce something audible. Cross your fingers, etc. :)
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
http://mark.orbum.net/2011/11/15/the-pan-pipes-of-gentoo-linux-always-at-the-source/ Woow! ... that's ... it's ... I ... I'm weeping ... freely! I'm not alone. _ Get your FREE, LinuxWaves.com Email Now! -- http://www.LinuxWaves.com Join Linux Discussions! -- http://Community.LinuxWaves.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
120910 Paul Hartman wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz Gentoo is the best distribution I have used ... I love watching questioning what is going to be installed. Supposedly Gentoo lacks being able to just work without thinking, but in my experience this simply isn't the case anywhere. With Ubuntu I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane. When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008, I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs. In Gentoo, problems are almost always just 1 layer deep, tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal. That's how I felt, too, in 2003 or 2004 when I first installed Gentoo and I've been using it ever since and still feel the same way. I'm okay with more responsibility in exchange for more control. Sometimes it makes you think about what you're doing more than some other distros, but thinking is fun. Exactly my own experience, also since 2003, when Mandrake was slow to bring out its new version, other distros didn't install properly I finally tried Gentoo: suddenly I found myself looking at a working system on my screen ! -- that machine still runs well enough as a stand-by without any re-installation I can update 'world' after 1 year . My picture is that using M$ is like staying in a mediocre over-priced hotel, where there are many locked doors marked 'Private: staff only!', it's not safe to eat in the restaurant Security gets angry sometimes. Binary Linux distros are like living in a fairly good apartment building, but you're still dependent on company staff + policies. Gentoo is like owning your own house. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
Chris Stankevitz wrote: Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many: ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge. Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system just work without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out... and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane (my uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it worked fine for a little while so maybe try that). And what's the deal with these major release versions of the other distros? Why do that? Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who are giving great advice/solutions on this list! Chris You should turn off the quiet build feature and watch all the stuff scroll by. Maybe just do that when you got some spare time. Brownie points if you can read and understand it all too. lol My brother has recently converted to Linux, with a LOT of my help. I put Kubuntu on his rig. When I need help, I google then I ask here. So far, the folks here seem to know more about *ubuntu than the people that actually have been using it for a while. Sort of funny in a way. Than again, so sad. :/ Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:46:14 -0700 Chris Stankevitz chrisstankev...@gmail.com wrote: Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many: ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge. Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system just work without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out... and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane (my uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it worked fine for a little while so maybe try that). And what's the deal with these major release versions of the other distros? Why do that? They are binary distros so they have no choice. For the duration of that version's life, all the packages shipped must all work together and that is only possible if the ABI does not change. The major version number is a way of recording what the hell you got: look up the distro version somewhere and see what it says. For the release to use new packages with their new magic features, every other package using those packages must also be recompiled and re-released to. You know about the current level of cluelessness on the forums, imagine what would happen if there were 6 versions of every package for every release. I don't mean foo-1.2.3-ubuntu-1 vs foo-1.2.3-ubuntu-2 (which will always be forward and backwards compatible), I mean foo-1.2.3 vs foo-2.3.4 and a few bar packages that don't use foo anymore but do use baz. It would be a nightmare. The only sane way to deal with this is to peg the packages at version levels and stick with it. Windows does this, Mac OS does it, Solaris does it. And they do it because that's the only thing that could work. Gentoo has no need of major version numbers. It is source-based, so it can do rolling releases. For any new package foo that changes it's ABI, portage will find all packages bar that now need to be updated, and then update them. This could never possibly work for Ubuntu. Nothing else could possibly work for Gentoo. Often when trying to understand why Gentoo works a certain way, it helps to remember who exactly is the distro maintainer. Ubuntu has maintainers that build packages for their Ubuntu versions and put the binaries in a repo somewhere. Gentoo also has such people: You Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who are giving great advice/solutions on this list! Chris -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On 09/10/2012 05:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz wrote: Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many: ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge. Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system just work without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out... and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane (my uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it worked fine for a little while so maybe try that). And what's the deal with these major release versions of the other distros? Why do that? Most of the binary based distributions have tied their stars to the major desktop environments. [For example Fedora is heavily tied to RedHat and the GNOME desktop, and many RedHat employees are major GNOME developers.] Fedora/GNOME is very nice for modern hardware and mostly just works because a lot of effort goes into testing each major release. But the GNOME philosophy has become one of hiding the inner workings of GNU/Linux in much the same manner that Microsoft hides all the innards of Windows. But Fedora is also the most 'bleeding edge distribution, getting the latest and greatest every six monthe or so. Debian and Ubuntu are also dedicated to producing desktop ready distributions that hide everything under the hood. The try to provide a more stable environment as well. All the binary distributions will have trouble getting the hardware environment correct. They just can't move fast enough to deal with the latest and greatest, or even the tried and true older stuff. Their Linux kernels have to try to please everybody and deal in a reasonable manner with what comes from the computer system makers. This requires them to put everything (and the kitchen sink!) in the mix, and hope it holds together. Gentoo, encouraging the building of a customized kernel for the hardware being used, gets the advantages of clean and lean and best speed available. Gentoo has become my favorite distribution since it is the most customizeable and doesn't force the users to accept too much crap along with the most useable bits. The documentation provides relatively clear explanations of why in addition to the how The Gentoo Handbook is one of the most accessible install documents around. I've been using UNIX since 1977, and Linux/GNU from its invention. Gentoo provies the right balance between having the good stuff easily installable, and being able to configure exactly what is wanted. Have fun with Gentoo. -- G.Wolfe Woodbury aka redwolfe (fedora proventester :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz chrisstankev...@gmail.com wrote: Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many: ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge. Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system just work without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out... and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane (my uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it worked fine for a little while so maybe try that). That's how I felt, too, in 2003 or 2004 when I first installed Gentoo, and I've been using it ever since and still feel the same way. I've tried other distros but Gentoo feels the most natural to me. I'm okay with more responsibility in exchange for more control over my system. Yeah, sometimes it makes you think about what you're doing more than some other distros, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Thinking is fun.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz chrisstankev...@gmail.com wrote: Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many: ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge. Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system just work without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out... and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane (my uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it worked fine for a little while so maybe try that). And what's the deal with these major release versions of the other distros? Why do that? Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who are giving great advice/solutions on this list! Chris Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user, and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to be to use this distro. Just be careful and red a bit. I've been helping a long time trading partner friend of mine with his move to Gentoo over the last year. He's hardly using native Windows anymore. He just runs a bunch of VMs like I do. Don't go doing anything crazy with your use flags. Yeah, they are cool, but my experience, especially in the beginning, is that less is more. I only have about 10 in make.conf on any of the 10 or so machines we have in our family now. I add a few in package.use when I'm forced to. Other than that KISS. Good luck welcome to the family. Cheers, Mark
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: For the release to use new packages with their new magic features, every other package using those packages must also be recompiled I see now. The only sane way to deal with this is to peg the packages at version levels and stick with it. I see that's the only thing that could work. I completely get it now. Great explanation, thank you! I'm a little embarrassed though that I didn't consider there was a technical reason for the major versions. I just assumed it was done for marketing reasons. Chris
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro
On Sep 11, 2012 6:40 AM, Paul Hartman paul.hartman+gen...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz chrisstankev...@gmail.com wrote: Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many: ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge. Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system just work without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out... and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane (my uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it worked fine for a little while so maybe try that). That's how I felt, too, in 2003 or 2004 when I first installed Gentoo, and I've been using it ever since and still feel the same way. I've tried other distros but Gentoo feels the most natural to me. I'm okay with more responsibility in exchange for more control over my system. Yeah, sometimes it makes you think about what you're doing more than some other distros, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Thinking is fun. This thread reminds me of a page I've posted here quite some times ago: http://mark.orbum.net/2011/11/15/the-pan-pipes-of-gentoo-linux-always-at-the-source/ I can't put it better than that guy. Although he finally settled for a-linux-distro-named-after-a-headwear, he still longs to be with The Source. The Source, Luke! Use The Source! Rgds,
