Re: 3350 failures
IIRC, there was also a head of string 3350 that would act as a controller. No, the HOS (A-unit) was required to connect to the 3880. B-units were the next in line. I think the last was a C-unit, but that might have been on for 3330's. (That last part is an entry in my dimmer parts of my own memory) - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
Ted MacNEIL wrote: IIRC, there was also a head of string 3350 that would act as a controller. No, the HOS (A-unit) was required to connect to the 3880. B-units were the next in line. I think the last was a C-unit, but that might have been on for 3330's. (That last part is an entry in my dimmer parts of my own memory) snip I don't know about 3350s (I was leaving FE by then so I never worked on them), but 3330s had no C units, only head-of-string and not-head-of-string units. The former housed a controller, and had external control interface connections resembling bus and tag channel cables. The latter had internal CTL-I connections that were different and, of course, no controller. (I worked on a *lot* of 3330s. We had something close to half an acre of them in the data center.) -- John Eells z/OS Technical Marketing IBM Poughkeepsie [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
(I worked on a *lot* of 3330s. We had something close to half an acre of them in the data center.) I started with 3330's. And, I remember when STK (STC) showed us their first ICEBERG, and the size of the device was that of a standard conference table, weighed less and had the capacity of an order (or 2) of magnitude larger than the 3330 farm I first tended. That 3330 farm was less than 50 GB, and we were considered a medium to large site. (Running on a 3081-D) - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) writes: I started with 3330's. And, I remember when STK (STC) showed us their first ICEBERG, and the size of the device was that of a standard conference table, weighed less and had the capacity of an order (or 2) of magnitude larger than the 3330 farm I first tended. That 3330 farm was less than 50 GB, and we were considered a medium to large site. (Running on a 3081-D) re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007k.html#58 3350 failures silicon valley area had at least three fairly large vm370 customer datacenters with good sized disk farms ... there was SLAC (lots of collection from the accelerator) and both Tymshare and internal HONE operation ... both extensive online, timesharing services http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#timeshare HONE had somewhat started out with a number of cp67 installations to provide hands-on virtual machine use for branch office SEs. recent reference: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#65 Help settle a job title/role debate It then transitioned to vm370 and lots of online, interactive APL applications supporting sales marketing ... i.e. at some point early in 370 timeframe, there was transition where machine orders couldn't even be submitted w/o having first being processed by a HONE configuration. In the mid-70s, the various (US) HONE datacenters were consolidated in silicon valley area ... with what was possibly the largest single-system configuration in the world at the time (large datafarm with load balancing across large number of processors in loosely-coupled configuration). http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone another large datacenter in silicon valley was Lockheed's DIALOG (online library titles and abstracts which has gone thru a number of owners since that time) ... which had something like 300(?) 3330-clones in their data farm (the basic service was MVS ... but lots of it was run under VM ... on clone processors). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
Yes, head of string, 3350-A2 (contains controller circuits, and is the first in a string of 3350 units) or 3350-A2F same as A2 has fixed as well as movable heads. Again from the facts folder. Rick Fochtman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 05/21/2007 10:24 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: 3350 failures [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IBM 3880 - 1 or 2 (IBM DASD and Control Units Facts Folder G520-3075-2) William Donzelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 05/21/2007 02:02 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: 3350 failures Will a 3880 with proper microcode control 3350s? -- Will IIRC, there was also a head of string 3350 that would act as a controller. But the memory is growing older and dimmer; check other sources. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
I don't remember any 3350 problems as this device type was my first performance charge with doing internal pathing/volume placement based on performance metrics at timeshare NVIP back in the early 80's. I do however remember the 3350 to 3380 migration project which turned ugly when we were informed, post migration, that we needed plenum replacements on our 3380 E's/K's. IIRC the plenum connected to 2 different HDA's but I could be wrong on this point. Lots of long weekends with the media folks deciding how to play musical chairs with strings of DASD. Anne Lynn Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 05/21/2007 11:31 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: 3350 failures The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IBM 3880 - 1 or 2 (IBM DASD and Control Units Facts Folder G520-3075-2) old email with reference to finding bug in the 3350 support in 3880 controller (and possibility of same bug having been in 3830 controller) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#email800402 in this recent post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#28 What is command reject trying to tell me? above post also references early 3880 MVS RAS testing in this post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007.html#2 The Elements of Programming Style -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't remember any 3350 problems as this device type was my first performance charge with doing internal pathing/volume placement based on performance metrics at timeshare NVIP back in the early 80's. I do however remember the 3350 to 3380 migration project which turned ugly when we were informed, post migration, that we needed plenum replacements on our 3380 E's/K's. IIRC the plenum connected to 2 different HDA's but I could be wrong on this point. Lots of long weekends with the media folks deciding how to play musical chairs with strings of DASD. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007k.html#58 3350 failures http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007k.html#60 3350 failures old email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#email800402 talks about problem executing HIO/HDV to 3350 when (3880) control unit was busy (which may have also existing in 3830) ... and software fix was to i/o supervisor to not do that. one of the 3350 to 3380 migration issues was that the 3380 had more data under each arm (proportional in excess in any increase in 3380 thruput improvement). internally we had some performance monitoring and modeling tools that would identify what 3350 data to move to what 3380 and some recommendations (in heavily loaded environment) to leave 3380 10-20 percent empty/idle (in order to have same thruput as 3350 configuration). there was a facetious proposal (even discussed at SHARE) for a special 3380 feature in the 3880 controller ... that would define extra priced 3380 drives that were faster (by reducing the number of cylinders that could be accessed). This was for shops where the administrators couldn't resist completely filling a 3380 as cost effective measure (however, they would feel comfortable with paying extra for feature that prevented them from completely filling a 3380). misc. past posts about getting to play dasd engineer in the disk engineering lab (bldg. 14) and the disk product test lab (bldg. 15). http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 05/21/2007 at 02:02 PM, William Donzelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Will a 3880 with proper microcode control 3350s? Yes, if it's the right model. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
In a message dated 5/17/2007 3:30:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 17 May 2007 15:01:48 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: I have a lead on a few 3350s - obsolete, but that is the point What point its that? By today's standards they are very slow. And at 635 MB per unit, you can get the capacity of several strings for a couple of hundred dollars and carry it in your pocket. Does anyone still service 3350s? Yes, they were kludgy way back then and absurd now, but it seems he wants to get one or more working and attached to a mainframe for reason(s) he has not divulged. Even though their 635MB can be replaced by a more modern device that fits in your pocket, I don't think the pocket devices attach very well to a mainframe. Maybe his mainframe is just as obsolete as his 3350s. And he will also need a control unit (also obsolete?) to drive them. Good luck. Bill Fairchild Plainfield, IL ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
Bill Fairchild writes Yes, they were kludgy way back then and absurd now, but it seems he wants to get one or more working and attached to a mainframe for reason(s) he has not divulged. Even though their 635MB can be replaced by a more modern device that fits in your pocket, I don't think the pocket devices attach very well to a mainframe. Maybe his mainframe is just as obsolete as his 3350s. And he will also need a control unit (also obsolete?) to drive them. Good luck. I think the original poster was looking for old hardware in the context of a museum display - which would make sense. Nobody in their right mind would actually want to run any of that old equipment for real. It's far too bulky for an in-home installation and the power requirements are well beyond what you would expect a hobbyist to tackle. FWIW my recollection of 3350s is that they were a huge improvement over the '30s and they were originally problematic. IBM had more or less got them working well by the time the '80s were released. Both '50s and '80s had problems with seals and with oil droplets smacking into heads at high speed. CC -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
Yes, they were kludgy way back then and absurd now, but it seems he wants to get one or more working and attached to a mainframe for reason(s) he has not divulged. There is no secret to why I want 3350s - it is to save, assemble, and restore old mainframe systems. There are a small number of us that lurk on this list (I am the most vocal, by far) that see these old machines and programs as important bits of history, similar to the reason there are others interested in old cars, planes, trains, and so forth. This list can be a great resource for information because of a few regular posters (thank you, guys), and once in a great while a lead will form to save some interesting bit of hardware or software destined for the scrap heap. Maybe his mainframe is just as obsolete as his 3350s. Yes, that is the point. Unfortunately, vintage processors disappeared more completely than the other goodies, like the DASDs. However, with everything so scarce, it make sense to grab whatever comes up and worry about other important things later. And he will also need a control unit (also obsolete?) to drive them. Good luck. Will a 3880 with proper microcode control 3350s? -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
In a message dated 5/21/2007 1:02:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Will a 3880 with proper microcode control 3350s? Yes. Bill Fairchild Plainfield, IL ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
IBM 3880 - 1 or 2 (IBM DASD and Control Units Facts Folder G520-3075-2) William Donzelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 05/21/2007 02:02 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: 3350 failures Will a 3880 with proper microcode control 3350s? -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
IBM 3880 - 1 or 2 (IBM DASD and Control Units Facts Folder G520-3075-2) OK, thanks. I need to find a 3880 anyway, so now this doubles the reason. -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IBM 3880 - 1 or 2 (IBM DASD and Control Units Facts Folder G520-3075-2) William Donzelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 05/21/2007 02:02 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: 3350 failures Will a 3880 with proper microcode control 3350s? -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html - IIRC, there was also a head of string 3350 that would act as a controller. But the memory is growing older and dimmer; check other sources. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IBM 3880 - 1 or 2 (IBM DASD and Control Units Facts Folder G520-3075-2) old email with reference to finding bug in the 3350 support in 3880 controller (and possibility of same bug having been in 3830 controller) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#email800402 in this recent post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#28 What is command reject trying to tell me? above post also references early 3880 MVS RAS testing in this post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007.html#2 The Elements of Programming Style -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
3350 failures
Yers. I can't remember a seal problem. There were problems sometimes which were supposedly to do with the lubricant on the heads (they land on the pack when it's switched off) causing stiction if the drive wasn't powered up for a while. Not a problem with Hitachi or Amdahl, not too bad with IBM units, worse with Memorex, a lot worse with STC, and Darren would go absolutely postal if I used the correct language to describe ISS drives. They're quite maintenance-intensive - certainly by modern standards. There's a HUGE filter in the back of the drive that needs changing (IIRC) about every three months. They also pull a fair bit of current - it would be that that worried me, rather than the weight. And, of course, the weight of a 3880. -- Phil Payne http://www.isham-research.co.uk +44 7833 654 800 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
Since it is for a museum environment, you should ask your local IBM office to donate some maintenance expertise. You might have to supply multiple 3350's as source parts for repairs. Yes, this is the case with all old 14 drives, IBM or otherwise. Unfortunately those made by IBM seem not to have survived well*, so the supply of junkers is limited. IBM's use of custom technology just about everywhere during that era does not help the spare parts matter either. *thus my infrequent and hopefully not annoying preaching on this list not to trash really old mainframe hardware and software. -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
On Thu, 17 May 2007 15:01:48 -0400, William Donzelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a lead on a few 3350s - obsolete, but that is the point - and the owner mentioned that the typical failure mode is the breakdown and failure of the seals, letting crud get on the platters. Can any of the oldtimers here elaborate? Does anyone still service 3350s? Also, does anyone know the weight of these 3350s? Although my memory is fading , i used to maintain these boxes ( was a hw guy in a former life) We had more often failures with the Fan and the bulbs than with the rest of the box . Bruno Bruno(dot)sugliani(at)groupemornay(dot)asso(dot)fr -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
3350 failures
I have a lead on a few 3350s - obsolete, but that is the point - and the owner mentioned that the typical failure mode is the breakdown and failure of the seals, letting crud get on the platters. Can any of the oldtimers here elaborate? Does anyone still service 3350s? Also, does anyone know the weight of these 3350s? Thanks! -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
On Thu, 17 May 2007 15:01:48 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: I have a lead on a few 3350s - obsolete, but that is the point What point its that? By today's standards they are very slow. And at 635 MB per unit, you can get the capacity of several strings for a couple of hundred dollars and carry it in your pocket. Does anyone still service 3350s? Also, does anyone know the weight of these 3350s? No, but you might look here http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3350.html -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
snip No, but you might look here http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3350.html /snip Never a good thing when your device shows up in the history section of IBM's website. :-) Thanks, Fletch Dilbert - I ask for so little..and boy do I get it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
I have a lead on a few 3350s - obsolete, but that is the point What point its that? By today's standards they are very slow. And at 635 MB per unit, you can get the capacity of several strings for a couple of hundred dollars and carry it in your pocket. The point is not to put these in any sort of production environment, but a museum environment. If operational, all the better. -- Will -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: 3350 failures
Since it is for a museum environment, you should ask your local IBM office to donate some maintenance expertise. You might have to supply multiple 3350's as source parts for repairs. /Tom Kern On Thu, 17 May 2007 16:45:52 -0400, William Donzelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a lead on a few 3350s - obsolete, but that is the point The point is not to put these in any sort of production environment, but a museum environment. If operational, all the better. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
