Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-14 Thread F Wolff
Op Ma, 2012-05-07 om 18:21 +0300 skryf Коростіль Данило:
 On 05/07/2012 03:47 PM, F Wolff wrote:
  Which version of Virtaal are you using? From your comment (2) I guess it
  is before 0.7. With version 0.7, you can go to File -  Properties to see
  statistics like those (as strings, or as words).
 I meant visible somewhere on pane.

Ah, ok. I'd like to hear your ideas of how to present that visually.
People have some very different ideas, so I've not had certainty of what
the best direction is to go in.


  Version 0.7 also improved performance in a few areas. Hopefully an
  upgrade is all you need. If not, feel free to add the file (or a URL) in
  a bug report so that a developer can have a look at why it is slow:
  http://bugs.locamotion.org/
 Version is 0.7.1. For example, you may open Evolution po file and try 
 it. I have time to go to the kitchen for the cup of water till it opens. 
 :) Probably that's because of my old computer, but gtranslator and 
 lokalize is fine.

On my laptop (more than 3 years old) it opens in seconds. I tried it on
an old netbook, and it took about 18 seconds, which is probably already
frustrating. I'll try to look into this, testing it on the netbook to
see how it can be improved.

Just so that I know what you are dealing with: 

 - more or less how long does it take to open the file?
 - what are your hardware specifications?
 - what operating system and version do you use?

I think at this point we should probably take it off this mailing list
as it is a bit off topic here, I guess :-)

Keep well
Friedel

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread Dwayne Bailey

On 04/05/2012 06:22, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

5/3/2012 10:03 PM, Коростіль Данило rašė:

On 05/03/2012 09:55 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:


Have you checked ut the beta? 

No. Is it speeded up?



I'd say it is, at least visually. IIRC, much more is done using AJAX 
than in the current version.
Yes it uses AJAX quite a bit, implements TM from a central TM server and 
does quite a lot to consolidate and unify the translation tasks.  Things 
like filtering for certain check failure and finding certain types of 
translations.


A number of sites use the beta version.  But being conservative we 
haven't pushed this out as official.  We'll be actively using the beta 
for the Firefox translations so that we have a controlled environment 
where the devs are actively involved.  And we'll get this out as an 
official release with Mozilla.


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Dwayne Bailey
+27 12 460 1095


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread Dwayne Bailey

On 06/05/2012 18:21, Cheng-Chia Tseng wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Olav Dahlumodah...@gmail.com  wrote:

2012/5/4 Sveinn í Fellisvei...@nett.is


Þann fim  3.maí 2012 18:37, skrifaði Коростіль Данило:

On 05/03/2012 09:16 PM, Andras Timar wrote:

Hi,

Please read this blog post:


http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla


Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have
feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then
with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras


BTW;

Does anyone know about the status of the serious complaint
towards Transifex (and Pootle?) for not keeping the Gettext
headers intact (even replacing them)?

This makes it impossible to keep track of (former)
translators. Some would even say it's a plain violation of
most licenses.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

Examples:
https://github.com/transifex/transifex/issues/16
http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37
and
http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=893




It still strips the headers to my knowledge. Yes, it's clearly in

violation

with the code of conduct for translation work, so fixing this should be a
top priority for their respective developers (some subtle threats to phase
out their solutions in projects might work, as this problem was painfully
obvious back in 2010 as well).

Dimitris Glezos, a Transifex developer replied to Fedora l10n mailinglist
on 6/2/2011:

Since last week, the translation information *is* added on the PO

headers. This information is stored on a resource-language level. A
couple of examples can already be seen live:


https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/transifex/resource/txo/l/pt_BR/download/

https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/anaconda/resource/master/l/zh_CN/download/

The copyright information is created with the following ways:

1. When translating online using the Web Editor, your name is added on the
   copyright header. To show your full name you need to define it under your
   Transifex Profile page.
2. When uploading a PO file, Transifex will parse the header and try to
find
   translator's names. Any names which do not exist in its database, will be
   added.

To populate the database with past copyright information, we have created a
script which will add as much information that was found in the Fedora
archives.

You can also manually add copyright information by downloading a PO file,
adding the copyright headers by hand and re-uploading.


In my opinion, I believe Transifex is much convenient for translators to
work with po files within my 2-year-long free software translation
experience.
The easier the tools, the happier the translators are.

By the way, does Poolte list suggestions or search results in numbers per
page instead of giving me one result each time in new versions?
It is so painful for me to find some translated phrases easily or review
translation suggestions these days. :S
The beta does, so yes. Our concern is that you lose the context of the 
surrounding strings and in many cases context is the only thing you have 
to make sure you choose the right words.  So we supply that context as 
needed when filtering: search, type of string, check failure.

--
Dwayne Bailey
+27 12 460 1095


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread Dwayne Bailey

On 04/05/2012 15:36, Olav Dahlum wrote:

2012/5/4 Sveinn í Fellisvei...@nett.is


Þann fim  3.maí 2012 18:37, skrifaði Коростіль Данило:

On 05/03/2012 09:16 PM, Andras Timar wrote:

Hi,

Please read this blog post:


http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla


Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have
feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then
with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras


BTW;

Does anyone know about the status of the serious complaint
towards Transifex (and Pootle?) for not keeping the Gettext
headers intact (even replacing them)?

This makes it impossible to keep track of (former)
translators. Some would even say it's a plain violation of
most licenses.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

Examples:
https://github.com/transifex/transifex/issues/16
http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37
and
http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=893




It still strips the headers to my knowledge. Yes, it's clearly in violation
with the code of conduct for translation work, so fixing this should be a
top priority for their respective developers (some subtle threats to phase
out their solutions in projects might work, as this problem was painfully
obvious back in 2010 as well).
We don't strip anything in fact we've always tried really hard to update 
the header and minimise diffs that header updates could cause.


We do in fact try to update the real comment header, as opposed to the 
PO header, with translator information so that you have some track 
record of when and who translated.  Since the PO header is to be quite 
honest useless as a track record for historic rights or contributor 
information.


Having said that there are many ways to interact with Pootle.  Translate 
online, upload PO files, overwrite, merge.  We could easily be getting 
this wrong in the instance or workflow that you follow.  So the way to 
help us to be a little more specific about what doesn't happen and what 
you expect to happen.  Showing us the PO files before, after and how 
you'd expect it to happen are a great help and save us a load of time 
trying to guess.


--
Dwayne Bailey
+27 12 460 1095


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread Dwayne Bailey

On 04/05/2012 09:57, leif wrote:

Hi Andras et al,
We in the Danish project uses Pootle on line. I have a few suggestions 
to improvements:


 * Better search facilities, e.g., regular expressions
This depends on the search backend, but this seems to be a regular theme 
here.  So thanks for that.

 * Ability to search or filter a subset e.g., to see only the latest
   updated strings.
Yes we can in beta.  The checks, search and state of strings will give 
you a subset on which you can work.

 * A way to avoid to approve my own translations (thats our overall
   rule in the Danish community never to translate and approve by the
   same person)
I'd be curious to know how you are doing this now and to think a little 
about it.  Maybe send me a mail offlist and we can discuss.

 * Log or history per string. It would be nice to know who translated,
   changed and approved a string.

That's on our scope for the Mozilla work.


Leif Lodahl
The Danish Team


On 03-05-2012 20:16, Andras Timar wrote:

Hi,

Please read this blog post:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla 



Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras







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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread Dwayne Bailey

On 04/05/2012 09:55, khagaroth wrote:

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Andras Timartima...@gmail.com  wrote:

Hi,

Please read this blog post:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla

Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras

The part that needs most improvement is the search. Right now it's
abysmally bad.

Then it would be nice to have things like suggested fuzzy matches,
We have a Translation Memory server called Amagama giving matches for 
almost all FOSS projects: *office, gnome, KDE, etc.  Those who translate 
offline using Virtaal are already befitting from that.  That is 
integrated into the next iteration of Pootle.

tag/variable highlighting in the _translation_ not only in the source

Nice, I also want that.  Not sure it is on our scope though.

and some more quality checks (especially consistency checks).

We already have a lot of quality checks.  By consistency do you mean 
something like check that I have translated X as Y consistently?  We 
have tools for doing that offline, but online in Pootle :(


I'm not sure how many people use the Terminology suggestion feature of 
Pootle? That helps a lot of teams maintain consistency.


But back to checks.  If you have ideas for reducing false positives, new 
checks, or improving checks then please let us know.  They are not that 
hard to write but even if you can express them in a simple pseudo code 
taking source and target text then we can quite easily implement them.


--
Dwayne Bailey
+27 12 460 1095


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread Коростіль Данило

On 05/07/2012 02:07 PM, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
We have a Translation Memory server called Amagama giving matches for 
almost all FOSS projects: *office, gnome, KDE, etc.  Those who 
translate offline using Virtaal are already befitting from that.  That 
is integrated into the next iteration of Pootle. 
It really useful stuff. Thanks for that. It's reason why I use Virtaal 
by default. Are you going to improve Virtaal? Here is only two really 
painful things why I don't like Virtaal:
1) So slow. It's quite good for small files. But when it's over 4000 
strings it takes long time to open and save.

2) Weird thing, but there is no ratio of strings (translated, fuzzy, total).

Transifex is really good for collaboration: I can see all translated 
string by certain user. Do you have this option in beta? It's useful to 
track newbies translators works and fix mistakes on the fly. Moreover, 
it's quite useful to coordinate that huge projects like Mozilla and 
LibreOffice, where number of translators are more than one and strings 
are more than 10k.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-07 Thread F Wolff
Op Ma, 2012-05-07 om 14:50 +0300 skryf Коростіль Данило:
 On 05/07/2012 02:07 PM, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
  We have a Translation Memory server called Amagama giving matches
 for 
  almost all FOSS projects: *office, gnome, KDE, etc.  Those who 
  translate offline using Virtaal are already befitting from that.
 That 
  is integrated into the next iteration of Pootle. 
 It really useful stuff. Thanks for that. It's reason why I use
 Virtaal 
 by default. Are you going to improve Virtaal? Here is only two really 
 painful things why I don't like Virtaal:
 1) So slow. It's quite good for small files. But when it's over 4000 
 strings it takes long time to open and save.
 2) Weird thing, but there is no ratio of strings (translated, fuzzy,
 total).

Which version of Virtaal are you using? From your comment (2) I guess it
is before 0.7. With version 0.7, you can go to File - Properties to see
statistics like those (as strings, or as words).

Version 0.7 also improved performance in a few areas. Hopefully an
upgrade is all you need. If not, feel free to add the file (or a URL) in
a bug report so that a developer can have a look at why it is slow:
http://bugs.locamotion.org/

Keep well
Friedel

-- 
Recently on my blog:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/friedel/en/content/survey-about-usability-virtaal


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-04 Thread Sveinn í Felli
Þann fim  3.maí 2012 18:37, skrifaði Коростіль Данило:
 On 05/03/2012 09:16 PM, Andras Timar wrote:
 Hi,

 Please read this blog post:
 http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla


 Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have
 feature or
 bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then
 with our help
 they may be implemented.

 Best regards,
 Andras

 Looks good.
 
 However as translator I'd like to use transifex because of
 some really good tools. Unfortunately, it has one huge
 weakness: it's no so suitable for scope project. But some
 projects like Fedora uses it. Probably we should at least
 try it.
 
 As for me Pootle is slower and less modern than Transifex.
 What do you say?
 
Hi,

As someone regularly using most of the tools employed for
FOSS translations (even the (t)rusty old email robot of
translationproject.org):

As a coordinator, often doing site-wide streamlining and
spell-checking, I appreciate the easy download/upload of
folder structures in Pootle. A bit slow at times, occasional
freezes, but overall the experience is good.
Even if it does not really bother in my case, I can see
tools in Transifex quite useful for other bigger teams; such
as file-locking and per-file messages.

As a translator, Transifex may win by a small margin; a bit
more snappy, a little more information on each page. I also
like having the download field in each file row (easier when
submitting several files in a folder).
But I think those are minimal differences.

Also, it may be just an imagination, but I have the feeling
that there's more (often) downtime on Transifex-based
services than Pootle-based. This is just an unsupported
feeling, of course.

Haven't really fiddled with the betas.
And to be clear, I usually translate offline.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-04 Thread khagaroth
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 Please read this blog post:
 http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla

 Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
 bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
 they may be implemented.

 Best regards,
 Andras

The part that needs most improvement is the search. Right now it's
abysmally bad.

Then it would be nice to have things like suggested fuzzy matches,
tag/variable highlighting in the _translation_ not only in the source
and some more quality checks (especially consistency checks).

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-04 Thread leif

Hi Andras et al,
We in the Danish project uses Pootle on line. I have a few suggestions 
to improvements:


 * Better search facilities, e.g., regular expressions
 * Ability to search or filter a subset e.g., to see only the latest
   updated strings.
 * A way to avoid to approve my own translations (thats our overall
   rule in the Danish community never to translate and approve by the
   same person)
 * Log or history per string. It would be nice to know who translated,
   changed and approved a string.

Leif Lodahl
The Danish Team


On 03-05-2012 20:16, Andras Timar wrote:

Hi,

Please read this blog post:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla

Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-04 Thread Olav Dahlum
2012/5/4 Sveinn í Felli svei...@nett.is

 Þann fim  3.maí 2012 18:37, skrifaði Коростіль Данило:
  On 05/03/2012 09:16 PM, Andras Timar wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Please read this blog post:
 
 http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla
 
 
  Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have
  feature or
  bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then
  with our help
  they may be implemented.
 
  Best regards,
  Andras
 

 BTW;

 Does anyone know about the status of the serious complaint
 towards Transifex (and Pootle?) for not keeping the Gettext
 headers intact (even replacing them)?

 This makes it impossible to keep track of (former)
 translators. Some would even say it's a plain violation of
 most licenses.

 Best regards,
 Sveinn í Felli

 Examples:
 https://github.com/transifex/transifex/issues/16
 http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37
 and
 http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=893



It still strips the headers to my knowledge. Yes, it's clearly in violation
with the code of conduct for translation work, so fixing this should be a
top priority for their respective developers (some subtle threats to phase
out their solutions in projects might work, as this problem was painfully
obvious back in 2010 as well).

– Olav

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[libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Andras Timar
Hi,

Please read this blog post:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla

Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Коростіль Данило

On 05/03/2012 09:16 PM, Andras Timar wrote:

Hi,

Please read this blog post:
http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla

Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
they may be implemented.

Best regards,
Andras


Looks good.

However as translator I'd like to use transifex because of some really 
good tools. Unfortunately, it has one huge weakness: it's no so suitable 
for scope project. But some projects like Fedora uses it. Probably we 
should at least try it.


As for me Pootle is slower and less modern than Transifex. What do you say?

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Rimas Kudelis

Hi,

2012-05-03 21:37, Коростіль Данило rašė:


As for me Pootle is slower and less modern than Transifex. What do you 
say?




Have you checked ut the beta?

Rimas


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Anton Meixome
2012/5/3 Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com:
 Hi,

 Please read this blog post:
 http://translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/better-faster-more-lovely-pootle-thanks-mozilla

 Let's discuss, if we, the LibreOffice l10n community have feature or
 bugfix requests. If they fit within Mozilla's scope then with our help
 they may be implemented.

 Best regards,
 Andras


Great news, Andras
I hope the best

Transifex is a good tool, of course, but it centralice all. It's a serious risk

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Antón Méixome - Galician Native Lang Coordination
Blog about Galician Office Suite
Galician community OOo.org  LibO
http://blog.openoffice.gl

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Коростіль Данило

On 05/03/2012 09:55 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:


Have you checked ut the beta? 

No. Is it speeded up?

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Olav Dahlum
2012/5/3 Коростіль Данило ted.korosti...@gmail.com

 On 05/03/2012 09:55 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:


 Have you checked ut the beta?

 No. Is it speeded up?



The developers of Transifex have actually caught up with Pootle in some
places, but it's still an awkward tool to work with. So, my suggestion for
people who want to use it is to set up their own local server or something.
The Pootle installation on the other hand need more resources to cope with
load.


Regards,

Olav Dahlum

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle engagement with Mozilla

2012-05-03 Thread Rimas Kudelis

5/3/2012 10:03 PM, Коростіль Данило rašė:

On 05/03/2012 09:55 PM, Rimas Kudelis wrote:


Have you checked ut the beta? 

No. Is it speeded up?



I'd say it is, at least visually. IIRC, much more is done using AJAX 
than in the current version.


Rimas


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