Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Valter Mura valterm...@gmail.com wrote: Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in that area may often found among those people who have a focus on accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing. Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed. This is very interesting, I'm used to test the FR version using Orca, but I didn't viewed it that way. while I agree with Martin considering the spell check bug a showstopper, Sophie, could you post again a mail regarding the procedure for QA with Orca? It could be interesting to have a regular reminder of it, so that Leaders could forward it to users/collaborators and maybe have more people for testing. Valter, I think Sophie and I were talking about two different things. Sophie was talking about confirming that Orca worked as a screenreader in LibreOffice builds. I was talking about the use of a11y tools (often Orca) as tool for performing repeated automated testing of nearly any software package. I am not an expert in this area, but you can find more information at sites like this: https://live.gnome.org/Orca/RegressionTesting http://www.slideshare.net/mariobehling/ray-wang-gnome-accessibility-and-automation-testing cjl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
2012/8/6 Sophie Gautier gautier.sop...@gmail.com Hi Chris, On 06/08/2012 19:04, Chris Leonard wrote: Dear Sophie, First thanks a lot for your feedback and sharing your experience here, it's much appreciated Sadly, the L10n community is a very poor place to recruit QA testing. Why? Because just as the new features are rolling in that need testing (on a tight release schedule), the new strings are rolling in that need L10n. There are only so many hours available between feature freeze/string freeze and release. Yes, I agree, but l10n people may be in contact with other actors or users in their own language, this is why I asked here. That is not to say that all community members do not bear some responsibility for quality, just that the localizer's busiest period exactly coincides with the critical testing period towards the end of a release cycle. Yes, it's true, however we have nightly builds that are available before localization cycle. I'm well aware that l10n people usually don't deal only with our project so I understand it's not easy at all. The bug in question (spell-checking) is not even directly a L10n related bug, but it *is* an issue that is very near and dear to the hearts of localizers, especially those engaged in localizing word processing tools. Many have spent countless hours, above and beyond UI L10n, developing word lists and working to enhance their native language spell-checking capabilities and as noted, many are more-or-less teams of one. This may account for some of the passion evoked. and I really understand it, being a localizer in more than one project too. Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in that area may often found among those people who have a focus on accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing. Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed. This is very interesting, I'm used to test the FR version using Orca, but I didn't viewed it that way. Hi All, while I agree with Martin considering the spell check bug a showstopper, please Sophie, could you post again a mail regarding the procedure for QA with Orca? It could be interesting to have a regular reminder of it, so that Leaders could forward it to users/collaborators and maybe have more people for testing. Ciao -- Valter *Open Source is better!* KDE: www.kde.org Kubuntu: www.kubuntu.org LibreOffice: www.libreoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi Valter, On 09/08/2012 12:51, Valter Mura wrote: 2012/8/6 Sophie Gautiergautier.sop...@gmail.com Hi Chris, On 06/08/2012 19:04, Chris Leonard wrote: Dear Sophie, First thanks a lot for your feedback and sharing your experience here, it's much appreciated Sadly, the L10n community is a very poor place to recruit QA testing. Why? Because just as the new features are rolling in that need testing (on a tight release schedule), the new strings are rolling in that need L10n. There are only so many hours available between feature freeze/string freeze and release. Yes, I agree, but l10n people may be in contact with other actors or users in their own language, this is why I asked here. That is not to say that all community members do not bear some responsibility for quality, just that the localizer's busiest period exactly coincides with the critical testing period towards the end of a release cycle. Yes, it's true, however we have nightly builds that are available before localization cycle. I'm well aware that l10n people usually don't deal only with our project so I understand it's not easy at all. The bug in question (spell-checking) is not even directly a L10n related bug, but it *is* an issue that is very near and dear to the hearts of localizers, especially those engaged in localizing word processing tools. Many have spent countless hours, above and beyond UI L10n, developing word lists and working to enhance their native language spell-checking capabilities and as noted, many are more-or-less teams of one. This may account for some of the passion evoked. and I really understand it, being a localizer in more than one project too. Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in that area may often found among those people who have a focus on accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing. Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed. This is very interesting, I'm used to test the FR version using Orca, but I didn't viewed it that way. Hi All, while I agree with Martin considering the spell check bug a showstopper, please Sophie, could you post again a mail regarding the procedure for QA with Orca? It could be interesting to have a regular reminder of it, so that Leaders could forward it to users/collaborators and maybe have more people for testing. I'm not sure of what you mean with testing with Orca, I use it just to check that LibO is working with a screen reader (Orca in that case) but I don't have a specific process to test ally functionality. May be Chris could give more detail on how they proceed. But what you ask is exactly what I was searching for : a way to reach your users/collaborators in order to set a QA process with those interested to participate :) And if it's what you mean, yes, I can send a reminder any time needed. But first I would like to know what would be the best for them to participate (a dedicated mailing list, irc channel, just a page on the wiki... in their language or in English ?). The tool we can use currently is Litmus, we can switch to another more recent one if needed, but it's just a tool, we need the community around it for now :) Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi, 2012/8/6 Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net: Since some look like stoppers, especially the extension/bundled dictionary bug, I wonder what localization teams leads think about it. What is an office suite without a broken basic spell-checking function? Workaround exists, and workaround does not have side effects, so it is not a stopper. Andras -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2012/8/6 Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net: Since some look like stoppers, especially the extension/bundled dictionary bug, I wonder what localization teams leads think about it. What is an office suite without a broken basic spell-checking function? Workaround exists, and workaround does not have side effects, so it is not a stopper. Andras I'm not convinced. Kludgy workarounds are no excuse for not fixing critical bugs before a major release. I'm afraid that I have to agree with Martin that I would have considered that particular bug a blocker. My general impression is that FOSS users are not hung up on schedules and a delayed release is not a big deal, but missing major features in a major release seems like a bad idea. You never get a second chance to make a good first impression. cjl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi Martin, Chris, all, On 06/08/2012 10:35, Chris Leonard wrote: On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Andras Timartima...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2012/8/6 Martin Srebotnjakmi...@filmsi.net: Since some look like stoppers, especially the extension/bundled dictionary bug, I wonder what localization teams leads think about it. What is an office suite without a broken basic spell-checking function? Workaround exists, and workaround does not have side effects, so it is not a stopper. Andras I'm not convinced. Kludgy workarounds are no excuse for not fixing critical bugs before a major release. I'm afraid that I have to agree with Martin that I would have considered that particular bug a blocker. My general impression is that FOSS users are not hung up on schedules and a delayed release is not a big deal, but missing major features in a major release seems like a bad idea. You never get a second chance to make a good first impression. As already stated here, we need more people to QA the versions earlier and help fix the bugs and the patches correcting them sooner. This is not them deciding to release, them deciding to do PR, them deciding the localization circle or them deciding what is good or bas. This is *us* making our product as good as possible. To achieve that, we need more people in the QA area and nobody but *us*, all of us can bring interest and manpower to this area of our project. That said, I'm trying to find time and energy to test some tools that would help to bring newcomers with absolutely no QA skills. But what is your opinion, what would help your community to have interest in testing the features and the localization to improve them and provide the quality we all would like to get ? Thanks in advance for your answers and actions, it's really something our project have to improve, and your opinion and help is more than welcome. Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
I must agree. One of the main reasons LO is attractive to users of my locale is the fact that it HAS proofing tools for our language. I already hate the thought of my inbox if this goes live because I'll be at the receiving end of dozens of email complaining that the spellcheck doesn't work anymore. Which should also be a consideration - perhaps it seems like a time-saving exercise to say we'll fix it later but that's a false economy and does not take into account the time which will be wasted by users and support people trying to calm down and support irate end users. Whether this was picked up late or not should be immaterial, as long as it's *before* the release that's early enough. That's why they are pre-releases. We're going to be the laughing stock of the office software world, including AOO, if this goes out. And as Chris said, I've never had complaints saying the new release, why is it 8 days late? but I have had plenty of emails asking me why the locale settings don't work (an old bug related only to my locale). Bad medicine as Bart would say. Michael 06/08/2012 09:35, sgrìobh Chris Leonard: I'm not convinced. Kludgy workarounds are no excuse for not fixing critical bugs before a major release. I'm afraid that I have to agree with Martin that I would have considered that particular bug a blocker. My general impression is that FOSS users are not hung up on schedules and a delayed release is not a big deal, but missing major features in a major release seems like a bad idea. You never get a second chance to make a good first impression. cjl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi Michael, all, On 06/08/2012 11:41, Michael Bauer wrote: I must agree. One of the main reasons LO is attractive to users of my locale is the fact that it HAS proofing tools for our language. I already hate the thought of my inbox if this goes live because I'll be at the receiving end of dozens of email complaining that the spellcheck doesn't work anymore. Which should also be a consideration - perhaps it seems like a time-saving exercise to say we'll fix it later but that's a false economy and does not take into account the time which will be wasted by users and support people trying to calm down and support irate end users. Whether this was picked up late or not should be immaterial, as long as it's *before* the release that's early enough. That's why they are pre-releases. We're going to be the laughing stock of the office software world, including AOO, if this goes out. So why don't you focus your users to use 3.5.x instead ? 3.6.1 will be release very soon, may be they can wait for the next release too, we (the development project that we represent) know that 3.6.0 won't be as stable as 3.5.x series. How many of your community have tested the RCs of this last version. Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't help to respect our release plan which is as important for the companies providing tested and certified versions of our software as bug free versions. Again, I ask that question: what would be your solution to improve the QA situation in the frame of our development process ? Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi Sophie, 06/08/2012 10:53, sgrìobh Sophie Gautier: How many of your community have tested the RCs of this last version. I'm barely getting enough sleep at the moment so probably no-one - there aren't enough tech-savy users in my community who would know the difference between the release and the RC, let alone use them. We actually run install sessions because most people are unsure about how to install it to begin with (which is, by the way, a general problem, not a specific LO issue). And before you chide me for not trying the RC - I did a lot of testing before our first release and during the first few version following that. I then got lax because I somehow assumed that people wouldn't break something critical that already worked and then release it. I run over two dozen localization projects for my locale, I'm sorry but that means I have to make some concessions to my need for sleep ;) Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't help to respect our release plan which is as important for the companies providing tested and certified versions of our software as bug free versions. Since when did the release plan become so important that it can't be nudged when needed? It's a plan, not the holy grail. Again, I ask that question: what would be your solution to improve the QA situation in the frame of our development process ? To have a bigger team and I'm working on that but until that happens, I can't do much except to start using the RCs in future rather than the releases because having a larger team will mean having to pay them. Which of course makes providing support tricky, if I'm looking at a different version on screen than the person at the other end of the screen or phone. . Michael -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi Michael, all, On 06/08/2012 12:04, Michael Bauer wrote: Hi Sophie, 06/08/2012 10:53, sgrìobh Sophie Gautier: How many of your community have tested the RCs of this last version. I'm barely getting enough sleep at the moment so probably no-one - there aren't enough tech-savy users in my community who would know the difference between the release and the RC, let alone use them. We actually run install sessions because most people are unsure about how to install it to begin with (which is, by the way, a general problem, not a specific LO issue). And before you chide me for not trying the RC - I did a lot of testing before our first release and during the first few version following that. I then got lax because I somehow assumed that people wouldn't break something critical that already worked and then release it. I run over two dozen localization projects for my locale, I'm sorry but that means I have to make some concessions to my need for sleep ;) Most of us here are in the same case of doing our best for the release. My question is how we can teach the users, bring interest to them to participate and not only be users at the end of the process. Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't help to respect our release plan which is as important for the companies providing tested and certified versions of our software as bug free versions. Since when did the release plan become so important that it can't be nudged when needed? It's a plan, not the holy grail. The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when this bug is very important for you, another one will be very important for me, and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for weeks... Again, I ask that question: what would be your solution to improve the QA situation in the frame of our development process ? To have a bigger team and I'm working on that but until that happens, I can't do much except to start using the RCs in future rather than the releases because having a larger team will mean having to pay them. Which of course makes providing support tricky, if I'm looking at a different version on screen than the person at the other end of the screen or phone. . what would help to bring more people in ? tools, process, meetings ? how can we bring our community to help here, not only by meaning you investing more time (this is not my aim really :) but by having an attractive QA process ? Kind regards Sophie Michael -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Certification Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
06/08/2012 11:14, sgrìobh Sophie Gautier: The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when this bug is very important for you, another one will be very important for me, and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for weeks... If the end product is better for it... yes? Surely there's a ... hierarchy of bugs in terms of the effect on the end user? what would help to bring more people in ? tools, process, meetings ? how can we bring our community to help here, not only by meaning you investing more time (this is not my aim really :) but by having an attractive QA process ? It's a very kind offer, much appreciated. But I'm afraid money will have to get involved (which is why it's taking time to set up). We all know, I'm sure, that out of a pool of X people, only a small % will participate. I once did some rough and ready numbers on the percentages (based on the number of contributors to the big projects like LO and Mozilla in countries of comparable technology levels) and it would appear that the ratio of people who are willing to spend serious amounts of time (for no money) on something like Open Source development is actually infinitesimal. Something about the human psyche I guess. Which means that a language with less than 100,000 speakers is likely to rely on a single person for ALL their OS, including l10n. Anything above that, they're either getting paid or your dealing with a very odd locale. Scottish Gaelic has less than 60,000... Michael -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Martin, On 06/08/2012 13:12, Martin Srebotnjak wrote: Sophie, Dne ponedeljek, 06. avgust 2012 je pošiljatelj Sophie Gautier gautier.sop...@gmail.com napisal: Hi Martin, On 06/08/2012 12:33, Martin Srebotnjak wrote: Dear Sophie, [...] The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when this bug is very important for you, another one will be very important for me, and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for weeks... Well, spell checking is a major thing for all users in an office suite. So we will release 3.7 if printing only works with a workaround, and 3.8.0 if keyboard only works with a workaround? So your community is already testing the builds to make sure it won't happen ? We all agree this bug is annoying and as I said you can still focus your users on 3.5.x version or the next 3.6.1 which will be ready when they'll come back from vacations. I will stop right here and now, because you are really pissing me off. I am single handedly translating lo since ooo 24, am occasionally testing it, when such tests were available for ooo, am promoting lo in slovenian with translation of news about new releases and release notes and I am even in the middle of translating the getting started guide, so you really picked the wrong person go bring to the verge of getting berzerk. Just say if you want it, i can abandon this project in a second. I'm sorry if you feel hurt by what I said. This is really not what I mean, I know well that you're working hard for OOo and now LO. I'm also alone to do the French localization and I'm aware of the long and difficult work it is. If you read me again, I used the word community and was not pointing you personally. What I would like is to have the feedback of the people here to improve the QA process in our project. We need a strong QA process, we miss it currently and I think that some people here could have 2 or 3 users that could be interested but don't know how to join. This is only what I'm asking and really not trying to under value the work you're doing. Sorry again that you feel hurt. Kind regards Sophie I have never raised my voice before for unimportant matters with oo and lo developers. So I guess you will use this same argument, why didnt you test it yourself, with reviwers of lo? The future is bright. If LO would not set this release date in the summer vacation period of the northern hemisphere, maybe more of us would be able to test... so that is my advice for future release plans. Releases were available for tests before that, this is also why I'm asking on your feedback to improve our QA process and why I search how we can find more people to help. Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Certification Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Dear Sophie, Sadly, the L10n community is a very poor place to recruit QA testing. Why? Because just as the new features are rolling in that need testing (on a tight release schedule), the new strings are rolling in that need L10n. There are only so many hours available between feature freeze/string freeze and release. That is not to say that all community members do not bear some responsibility for quality, just that the localizer's busiest period exactly coincides with the critical testing period towards the end of a release cycle. The bug in question (spell-checking) is not even directly a L10n related bug, but it *is* an issue that is very near and dear to the hearts of localizers, especially those engaged in localizing word processing tools. Many have spent countless hours, above and beyond UI L10n, developing word lists and working to enhance their native language spell-checking capabilities and as noted, many are more-or-less teams of one. This may account for some of the passion evoked. Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in that area may often found among those people who have a focus on accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing. Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed. I agree with your comments that there should not be an us versus them distinction within a project. The burden for keeping clear communications open rests equally on all, but it is not necessarily all that common for localizers to attend release team meetings or bug triage sessions as they are focused on other areas. As the Translation Team Coordinator of Sugar Labs, I try to attend as many of those as possible to speak out on behalf of i18n/L10n concerns. It is not unreasonable for individual language L10n contributors to expect that the global level i18n/L10n team coordinators are acting in a similar way to speak on behalf of the entire L10n community and the issues that matter to them (like spell-checking and dictionary support). The us versus them dynamic unfortunately arises when localizers do not feel that developers or the release team decision makers have adequately taken the needs of the international community into account. cjl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0
Hi Chris, On 06/08/2012 19:04, Chris Leonard wrote: Dear Sophie, First thanks a lot for your feedback and sharing your experience here, it's much appreciated Sadly, the L10n community is a very poor place to recruit QA testing. Why? Because just as the new features are rolling in that need testing (on a tight release schedule), the new strings are rolling in that need L10n. There are only so many hours available between feature freeze/string freeze and release. Yes, I agree, but l10n people may be in contact with other actors or users in their own language, this is why I asked here. That is not to say that all community members do not bear some responsibility for quality, just that the localizer's busiest period exactly coincides with the critical testing period towards the end of a release cycle. Yes, it's true, however we have nightly builds that are available before localization cycle. I'm well aware that l10n people usually don't deal only with our project so I understand it's not easy at all. The bug in question (spell-checking) is not even directly a L10n related bug, but it *is* an issue that is very near and dear to the hearts of localizers, especially those engaged in localizing word processing tools. Many have spent countless hours, above and beyond UI L10n, developing word lists and working to enhance their native language spell-checking capabilities and as noted, many are more-or-less teams of one. This may account for some of the passion evoked. and I really understand it, being a localizer in more than one project too. Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in that area may often found among those people who have a focus on accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing. Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed. This is very interesting, I'm used to test the FR version using Orca, but I didn't viewed it that way. I agree with your comments that there should not be an us versus them distinction within a project. The burden for keeping clear communications open rests equally on all, but it is not necessarily all that common for localizers to attend release team meetings or bug triage sessions as they are focused on other areas. As the Translation Team Coordinator of Sugar Labs, I try to attend as many of those as possible to speak out on behalf of i18n/L10n concerns. It is not unreasonable for individual language L10n contributors to expect that the global level i18n/L10n team coordinators are acting in a similar way to speak on behalf of the entire L10n community and the issues that matter to them (like spell-checking and dictionary support). The us versus them dynamic unfortunately arises when localizers do not feel that developers or the release team decision makers have adequately taken the needs of the international community into account. Well, you're right of course. What I would like is to get in touch with the users of the product in language communities. I thought that l10n team could help me and may be even get feedback on the needs to improve the situation. But I'm also aware of the amount of work done by the l10n teams on open source projects so I understand too. I'll try to reach the webmasters of our localized sites to try to get in touch with some possible testers throughout their help. Thanks again Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
