Re: [lace] Names

[Ilske Thomsen]

I agree with you Devon, in that
> 
> In the case of Bedfordshire, 
> On a basic level it is a guipure bobbin lace, which was made in many places
> and at many times. But, Bedfordshire, whether made in Bedfordshire or
> elsewhere, tends to imply a stylistic aspect, sort of a mid 19th century lace
> inclined to have roses in it, or possibly paisleys. 

and how I understood Mr. Lester react of new things like a new and strange 
animal at London zoo and so on. The lace shows in a way the feeling of the 
society.

Ilske

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[lace] names

[Lorelei Halley]

Devon

I think you are right. But I would say that a lace name should include both
technique and structure, but also style. A structural definition of Beds and
Cluny would be very similar - a guipure straight lace, held together mostly
by braids. But stylistically they are quite different. And, of course, there
are also differences in specific techniques. (Techniques meaning specific
solutions to specific problems, for instance, how to connect a braid/plait
to a cloth spot, or how to bring braids/plaits into or out of a cloth trail.
And to complicate things further, actual historic laces may show both the
Cluny method and the Beds method used in the same lace!!!)  So as modern
lace makers we typically use a geographical name as a code for all those 3
things - structure, techniques and style.

Cluny is fairly easy to describe in words. It is a guipure (braid based)
straight lace with geometric designs, and it may have a cloth trail. My
personal habit is to use a different name, "continental straight lace", for
those pieces which have pictorial elements to the design, such as flowers
and leaves, or figures. That is a term that Doris Southard used, and I
learned it from her. I don't know enough to reliably distinguish
"continental straight laces" by their geographic origin. Such were made in
France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Denmark and Sweden. The Danish and Swedish
ones are very similar and I can't reliably distinguish them.  Purely
geometric Cluny may have a French name, but it also probably has no specific
geographic referent (except to specify  "not made in England".

Bedfordshire is a lot harder to describe in words, although it is absolutely
clear and distinct visually. A guipure braid/plait based straight lace which
often has a cloth trail, and sometimes subsidiary cloth trails. It may have
cloth spots (spiders), and leaves or flowers. Even the designs without
naturalistic motifs have a flowing, organic character.

Lorelei

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RE: [lace] Names

[Devon Thein]

Alex says, “As it is rare to find a piece that can be traced back to its
place of origin, perhaps we need to come to an agreement regarding
classification by technique, bearing in mind that lacemakers did not work
rigidly to a set of rules. The same technique may be found in laces made in
different countries, even if only occasionally and they will cause
trouble.”

In the case of Bedfordshire, what would you call it if you were classifying it
by technique?
On a basic level it is a guipure bobbin lace, which was made in many places
and at many times. But, Bedfordshire, whether made in Bedfordshire or
elsewhere, tends to imply a stylistic aspect, sort of a mid 19th century lace
inclined to have roses in it, or possibly paisleys. Stopping at “guipure
bobbin lace” seems to be too general. But going further is also perplexing.

Devon

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[lace] Names

[Alex Stillwell]

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 17:18:06 -0400
From: Susan 
Subject: [lace] Bedfordshire lace

Hello All!  While working on signage for an upcoming lace exhibit at the
library, I ran into a disagreement among lace resources regarding
Bedfordshire.

Hi Susan and Arachnids

Our Bedfordshire lace has its roots in the plaited laces, like those in Le
Pompe, and it has evolved over the years – in fits & starts according to the
fashion at the time. Where names are concerned you have to be very careful. In
the book having the same name written by ,The Bucks. Cottage Workers Agency,
dated 1911 there are illustrations of what we now call Bedfordshire labelled
,Bucks Cluny, and there is another with the label ,... one of Mrs. Armstrong,s
Buckinghamshire lace Berthes ..., that is what we now consider typical Beds
rose and leaf floral. It would appear that, in the past, they named the lace
after the area in which it was made, not by style. As it is rare to find a
piece that can be traced back to its place of origin, perhaps we need to come
to an agreement regarding classification by technique, bearing in mind that
lacemakers did not work rigidly to a set of rules. The same technique may be
found in laces made in different countries, even if only occasionally – and
they will cause trouble.

I am taking acre with characters, using commas instead of apostrophes and
inverted commas.

Blow the dust

Alex

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[lace] Lace names and types

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Arachnids

I am happy to call them buffalo wings or anything you like as long as we
understand each other and the implications of the words we use.  Some time ago
I suggested that OIDFA compiled an ‘Observers book of Laces’.
Unfortunately they did not bite – too time consuming perhaps, but extensive
work is definitely required in this area.

Blow the dust

Alex

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[lace] names and place on arachne

[Helene Gannac]

Dee, you are not supposed to put your name anywhere when you write to your
secret pal!! Only sign Your secret Pal, not Helene, or Dee, or anything that
can be recognized!!

Also, use someone else's name and address on the parcels. I use my husband's
name, or a friend of mine, whose permission I asked for first, of course!!

Helene, the froggy from Melbourne, Australia.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [lace] Posting to Arachne

I think it is a good idea to put our names and where we come from - EXCEPT 
won't that give us away to our Secret Pals?

Dee Palin
Forest of Dean
Gloucestershire







 
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[lace-chat] Re: [lace] names and place on arachne

[delia.palin]

I was not talking of sending my name to my Secret Pal, but on lace chat/lace 
putting my name and where I come from when I send in a message as suggested 
by someone else.  I thought that if I did this, my Secret Pal would be able 
to tie that up with parcels she had received from me, even though I use a 
friend's return address,  in which I am supposed to to put items to do with 
my local area, which would be of interest to to her.



- Original Message - 
From: Helene Gannac [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: lace@arachne.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 7:42 AM
Subject: [lace] names and place on arachne



Dee, you are not supposed to put your name anywhere when you write to your
secret pal!! Only sign Your secret Pal, not Helene, or Dee, or anything 
that

can be recognized!!

Also, use someone else's name and address on the parcels. I use my 
husband's

name, or a friend of mine, whose permission I asked for first, of course!!

Helene, the froggy from Melbourne, Australia.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [lace] Posting to Arachne

I think it is a good idea to put our names and where we come from - EXCEPT
won't that give us away to our Secret Pals?

Dee Palin
Forest of Dean
Gloucestershire








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Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email!
http://au.photomail.mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [lace] Re: Stumpwork (lace names)

[Beth Schoenberg]

Yes!
:-D :-D :-D
Yours in lacing,
Beth Schoenberg
--- in beautiful downtown Wanniassa, Canberra
On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 10:42 AM, Tamara P. Duvall wrote:
On Sep 7, 2004, at 14:45, Beth Schoenberg wrote:
most of us, I suspect, will want to give at least a nod of 
recognition to the historic sources used.   Mixed lace seems to be 
the term I've come across most often, describing any lace that uses 
two or more pure and distinguishable techniques.
Equally, the pure laces - especially given that their purity is not 
of very long standing - could, perhaps, be called a-retentive?

Yours, working on a pattern in the vicinity of PG (*very* mixed 
breed g)

---
Tamara P Duvall http://lorien.emufarm.org/~tpd
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Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names

[dominique]

Devon 

i think i 'd use both ...firt say it the *learned* way then the way 
everybody in the audience can understand ... and use a little witty phrase 
to get people to smile to that *translation*
Point de neige is indeed french and means snow point by the way

dominique from Paris ..



[EMAIL PROTECTED] a décidé d' écrire à  Ò[lace] pronounciation of lace 
namesÓ.
[2004/09/03 15:58]
 How should I pronounce it for the slide 
 show. 
 If I  say Point, do I sound like a boob? If I say Pwont will the audience 
 be so 
  busy puzzling out what I am saying that they will miss the rest of the  
 commentary? Will some people think me elitist?

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[lace] pronounciation of lace names

[Jane Partridge]

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], lapalme [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes
  If I'm speaking 
English, and there is an English translation for the French term, I use 
the English translation. 

Sitting here reading the thread on this, I'm thinking, as an English
English person, I would say Point de Neige rather than pwan as we were
taught point is pronounced in French. Then, it dawned on me, English
translation... the other day we actually travelled (in the car) down a
road called Whitestitch Lane. (In Meriden, for anyone in the English
Midlands). Of course, Point de Neige translates literally to Snow
Stitch, so maybe it answers my mused question as to what White stitch
was?


-- 
Jane Partridge

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[lace] pronounciation of lace names

[Dmt11home]

I am doing a slide show about lace for lacmakers, some of whom may collect,  
but most of whom are lacemakers. I am planning to mention in passing that a  
piece is Gros Point, or Point de Angleterre or Rose point or Point de Neige. In 
 one case, I am actually saying Rose Point (rather than Point de Rose)  and  
Point de Neige in the same sentence. Rose Point is arguably English, whereas  
Point de Neige is arguably French. Since I mostly read lace names and rarely  
discuss them, I tend to say Point as we say it in English. I realize that it 
is  pronounced Pwont in French. How should I pronounce it for the slide show. 
If I  say Point, do I sound like a boob? If I say Pwont will the audience be so 
 busy puzzling out what I am saying that they will miss the rest of the  
commentary? Will some people think me elitist?
Fortunately I do not have any Tonder in the show. When I say Tonder, I am  
invariable corrected to Tooner. When I say Tooner, people in the US say, what? 
 Likewise the problem with Chantilly. When I say Chanteeyay, I am met with 
blank  stares. Most people are familiar with the pronounciation Chantilly from 
the  Country Western song Chantilly Lace.
Santina Levey espouses a philosophy of eliminating French names of lace  
whenever possible as hopelessly Victorian. However, Point de Angleterre somehow  
conveys more than Brussels Bobbin lace to many people who read about lace and I 
 think she even uses the term herself. LIkewise Point de Neige does not seem 
to  have an English counterpart except fine needle lace from Venice.
Does one approach this issue as though everyone in the audience is  
sophisticated enough to know the pronunciation rules of every language or does  one 
pronounce things the way they would be pronounced in the language that you  are 
speaking in?
Devon
who realizes that she doesn't even know how her own last name would be  
pronounced in the European country of its origin, Luxemburg.

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Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names

[Adele Shaak]

Does one approach this issue as though everyone in the audience is
sophisticated enough to know the pronunciation rules of every language 
or does  one
pronounce things the way they would be pronounced in the language that 
you  are
speaking in?
Hi Devon:
My 2 cents:
This problem makes you tread carefully - I think there's a fine line 
between sounding knowledgeable and sounding like a pompous snob. And 
the pronounciation rules of every language are subject to local 
variance. Think about New Orleans vs N'alins and all the 
possibilities in between that you will get in your own country!

Then, even the so-called knowledgeable people say things differently - 
we've already gone over the many pronunciations of Binche on this list 
- I think I had eight or nine at last count, and it's a one-syllable 
word!

When I am speaking English I say the words as a speaker of English, 
except that I tend to use the French pwan rather than Point when I 
say French names - but in Canada most people have a few years of French 
schooling under their belt. If I am speaking to people who will I think 
may be confused by pwan I just say Point the English way. I rhyme 
Binche with pinch and let the chips fall where they may. I say Tonder 
with the d. I have no trouble with you saying Rose Point and Pwan de 
Neige in the same sentence.

I think we in North America worry more about correct pronunciation than 
a lot of other people. Let's get over it! I think the most important 
thing is to communicate what I mean, and I speak with the goal of 
having the people I am talking to understand me.

Adele
North Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)
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Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names

[lapalme]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Since I mostly read lace names and rarely  discuss them, I tend to say 
Point as we say it in English. I realize that it is  pronounced Pwont 
in French. How should I pronounce it for the slide show.  

Devon,
I definitely see the problem.  Here's the way I do it:  If I'm speaking 
English, and there is an English translation for the French term, I use 
the English translation.  Same in French, if there is a French 
translation.  For example, when speaking in French, I refer to London as 
Londres.   Why?  Because otherwise, people just don't seem to understand.

On the other hand, if there is no translation, then I use the original 
pronounciation, of the other language.  If I get lots of blank stares, I 
stop and explain the term, then keep on using it.

I guess I may be a bit more sensitive to some of this than most, because 
I'm French Canadian, but live and work in a bilingual society that is 
mainly English.  You have no idea how many times my name can be 
anglicized in one day, and it gets frustrating.  I feel like a keep on 
repeating myself.  My first name is Lise-Aurore, but stop at Lise.  
Simple.  Pronounced like lees.  You have no idea how many times I get to 
say, No Lise, not Lisa, there is no A at the end.  Or, No Lise, not 
Liz, it's with an se, not a z at the end.  And that's just the first 
part of the name.  Personally, I find that I  understand if someone 
pronounces it wrong if they have only seen it in writing and never heard 
it, but for people who have heard the pronounciation, then I find it 
rather insulting when they anglicize it.

So, given all that unnecessary information, I guess I'm suggesting that 
you use the English translation when possible, and then the French 
pronounciation when there is no translation.  And that should be really 
good and confusing!!!

Lise-Aurore
in Ottawa, where the sun is shining and the temperature is headin to 29C
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Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names

[Aurelia Loveman]

Dear Devon  ‹‹  I love your quandary.  Shrug off all the nailbiters and the
obsessives, and all the experts too (!) and listen to Aurelia who has
actually stood up on museum stages and spoken as follows:

Rose Point:  Rohz Poynt
Point d'Angleterre: Poynt dahng-let-terr (yes, Poynt, that's right)
Gros Point:  Groh Poynt (see, we aren't French)
Point de Neige: Pwont de Nezh (we're still not French, but nevermind)
Chantilly:  Shan Tillie

Just in case Tonder creeps in, try Turner, as we say in Baltimore

No dear heart, you will never sound like a boob no matter what you say
(didn't know boobs made sounds; just goes to show you)

Santina Levey? Who she?

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