Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Lance Collins wrote: Damien Gerard wrote: Normal users read the documentation because you cannot play a game without knowing the rules. They already know how to use Delphi when they were a little baby ? ^^) and some modifications are necessary. As far I know this is planned for Lazarus =1.0, in order to make a consistent patch (Old thread - Should be confirmed by a Lazarus team member, I speak for myself here). Waiting for that, the provided documentation is really enough for any programmer and I would add : RTFM :) I would like to Read The Fine Manual but it's Read The Scattered Framents. I've been programming since 1965 and written in Delphi since D2. For the last two weeks I've been reading all I can and have written two simple test programs in Lazarus. But I'm baffled trying to convert my main application It compiles but won't link (so I don't have a big compiled EXE). I think I've screwed the environment/compiler etc. options somehow and I can't find helpful explanations for each choice. For example in the IDE I see all my 50+ units listed across the top of the screen but Control/F12 pops up only two entries (lclclasses and my lpr file). Once I figure out what to do I'm sure the provided documentation will be become clear. Lance Please start separate thread.One tip : look for resource files included in project,some could be incompatible.I found the same behaviour with corrupted resource file. Boguslaw _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Don't get me wrong, but some discussions are useless and do more harm than good for the Lazarus. project imho. This is one of hem. Normally I would simply not answer. But this takes too long imho, and too much time which can be spend much better. Op dinsdag 15-01-2008 om 13:10 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Lee Jenkins: Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? Vincent Vincent, I think not all users will contribute, maybe the majority of them will not, but they help the project nonetheless, IMO. Those who will leave the project because of large exe-size, we don't need. 1. Some that do not contribute a lot will still spread the word of Lazarus, especially if their experiences with Lazarus are good ones. Those who will leave the project because of large exe-size, can only spread fuzz. They will always find something to pick about. They can't be serious. 2. Some *will* contribute a little, a few may contribute a lot in various ways (documentation/testing if not actual code contributions). I believe the Law of Averages is simply in control as far as this goes. As the user based increases so will the contributions, bug reports, documentation, etc. Maybe its like panning for gold! Those who will leave the project because of large exe-size, will only scare people away. Especially real developers, who get tired of discussions like this. They don't like it if they feel like they have to take care of some newbies that will never develop theirselves furhter. Thanks for your hard work, Vincent (and other Lazarus developers). Your work does not go unappreciated :) Each second that people like Vinvent spend on this, is lost time. Offcourse we need to support the community. And Vincent is doing a great deal in that way. That's probably the reason that he responded on this thread, while the other lazarus-developers mostly did not. But this takes too long, it will not take the project any further. Joost _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 09:54 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Joost van der Sluis: Don't get me wrong, but some discussions are useless and do more harm than good for the Lazarus. project imho. This is one of hem. Normally I would simply not answer. But this takes too long imho, and too much time which can be spend much better. Some more information. When people try to use Lazarus for the first time. They write 'hello world', compile, run. Add a breakpoint, compile, run. If debugging then doesn't work, they'll toss Lazarus away. If they see lines with hexadecimal numbers, they'll start googling or complaining. Next step is that they compile one of their 'old, rusty' delphi/pascal programs. To see if that still works. That are the things we need to think about while developing Lazarus. The binary size - no one is interested in that. Only people who are coming from Delphi. And that's because the Delphi compiler is written in an time in which executable size was important! You only had 2400 baud modems, and your harddisk had 20MB of storage space! That's the reason why Delphi has all those tricks to keep files as small as possible, even while you're developing. Nowadays no-one really cares. Unless you are obsessed with comparing every detail of FPC/Lazarus with Delphi. About the compilation time, some people argue that that would be faster if the binary size (or the size of the .o files) is smaller. Well, hurray! Compilation time drops from 1.2 seconds to 1.198 seconds That's 0.02 seconds faster! Fast, submit it to slashdot! That will learn those C-users to bash pascal! Same holds for executable-loading times. (According to the benchmarks fpc is one of the fastes compilers in this aspect) A thing which does matter, if the amount of memory the application uses while running. I'm still annoyed by the fact that the 'clock' in the corner of my screen consumes 5MB of internal memory, just to show the time. And then I didn't count the python-runtime which is loaded to use it. GNOME (Fedora) can take up to hundred or even more MB of memmory, just to show some widgets. That annoys me. So I'm happy with Lazarus which only needs twice the amount of internal memory then a stupid, simple, clock. I doubt that any non-Delphi user will ever make an issue about the file-size. Until they want to distribute their applications, in which case they'll have no problems with the strip option. Offcourse, the core-developers could spend some time on an option to strip the debug info from the LCL, but not of the whole application. But it's importance is the same a typo on the about screen. While the effort needed to implement it, is comparable to implementing the basics of a out-of-the-box CGI-web system. (Or some steps further in the development of the internal debugger) I'm really happy with the Lazarus developers, who would spend their time on the CGI-functionality, instead of useless functionality like typo's and lcl-debuginfo-strip-options. That's also the reason why Lazarus has become what it is, and the amount of users is growing that fast: The project is driven by a team of excellent developers, who know where they should spend their time on. The same holds, for example, for the iconset. I'm pretty pleased that the core people didn't spend much time on it. And I'm pretty pleased with Laurent and others, who have picked this up and made many patches with new and improved Icons. They didn't start long threads on the mailinglist to ask others to code a solution for their - from a core-developer view - unimportant options. No they started long threads with all sort of self-made Icons, compared them, and chooses the best of them. Resulting in a far better looking Lazarus in just a couple of months. From time to time this threads pops up. Just like the 'icon' threads did in the past. Now take your responsibility: if you are annoyed by the fact of the big-binaries, you have to supply patches for that. If you think that it's a big issue which we all have been waiting for you would start spending time on it, to make that patch. Even if it would take you months, you would do it. If not, it's not a big enough issue to spend time on. And especially not to spend others time on, writing long mails to the mailing list. ;) Joost. ps: Main idea of the message above isn't even debatable. So in case you're already writing a long answer: stop that, I won't even read. And certainly not answer. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi to all, 2008/1/16, Joost van der Sluis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No I am answering - to myself even: Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 11:18 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Joost van der Sluis: A thing which does matter, if the amount of memory the application uses while running. I'm still annoyed by the fact that the 'clock' in the corner of my screen consumes 5MB of internal memory, just to show the time. And then I didn't count the python-runtime which is loaded to use it. GNOME (Fedora) can take up to hundred or even more MB of memmory, just to show some widgets. That annoys me. So I'm happy with Lazarus which only needs twice the amount of internal memory then a stupid, simple, clock. Thus, being a good Open-Source developer, I should write my own clock, or stop complaining about it. ;) Broke my own rule ;) (As a Defense, I did writ my own clock, but didn't finished it, so it wasn't annoying enough) From time to time this threads pops up. Just like the 'icon' threads did in the past. Now take your responsibility: if you are annoyed by the fact of the big-binaries, you have to supply patches for that. If you think that it's a big issue which we all have been waiting for you would start spending time on it, to make that patch. Even if it would take you months, you would do it. If not, it's not a big enough issue to spend time on. And especially not to spend others time on, writing long mails to the mailing list. ;) As Fabio (and others) does now with the docking-system. Seems like that the lack of this feature is more annoying than the binary size. So let's concentrate on that and keep up the good work! Joost. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives OK guys now I OFFICIALLY close this very long, long thread! :) See you later! ;) -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
No I am answering - to myself even: Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 11:18 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Joost van der Sluis: A thing which does matter, if the amount of memory the application uses while running. I'm still annoyed by the fact that the 'clock' in the corner of my screen consumes 5MB of internal memory, just to show the time. And then I didn't count the python-runtime which is loaded to use it. GNOME (Fedora) can take up to hundred or even more MB of memmory, just to show some widgets. That annoys me. So I'm happy with Lazarus which only needs twice the amount of internal memory then a stupid, simple, clock. Thus, being a good Open-Source developer, I should write my own clock, or stop complaining about it. ;) Broke my own rule ;) (As a Defense, I did writ my own clock, but didn't finished it, so it wasn't annoying enough) From time to time this threads pops up. Just like the 'icon' threads did in the past. Now take your responsibility: if you are annoyed by the fact of the big-binaries, you have to supply patches for that. If you think that it's a big issue which we all have been waiting for you would start spending time on it, to make that patch. Even if it would take you months, you would do it. If not, it's not a big enough issue to spend time on. And especially not to spend others time on, writing long mails to the mailing list. ;) As Fabio (and others) does now with the docking-system. Seems like that the lack of this feature is more annoying than the binary size. So let's concentrate on that and keep up the good work! Joost. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
OK guys now I OFFICIALLY close this very long, long thread! :) Are you trying to create an patch ? If not please inform me than i will do. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/16, Christian U. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK guys now I OFFICIALLY close this very long, long thread! :) Are you trying to create an patch ? If not please inform me than i will do. I have just found a method to move ALL the debug data and symbols to an external .dbg file, obtaining a just stripped compiled file and the full debug functionalities (only with the .dbg file presents). Currently I must execute 3 steps to obtain this (after every compilation). I'm working to can do all with a single step (just on beta testing)! :) -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
At 18:37 16-1-2008, you wrote: Hi, 2008/1/16, Christian U. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK guys now I OFFICIALLY close this very long, long thread! :) Are you trying to create an patch ? If not please inform me than i will do. I have just found a method to move ALL the debug data and symbols to an external .dbg file, obtaining a just stripped compiled file and the full debug functionalities (only with the .dbg file presents). Currently I must execute 3 steps to obtain this (after every compilation). I'm working to can do all with a single step (just on beta testing)! :) I can see only 2 steps: $ objcopy -R .text -R .data lazarus.exe lazarus1.dbg $ strip lazarus.exe Resulting files: -rwxr-xr-x 1 peter None 41551141 Jan 16 18:50 lazarus.dbg -rwxrwxrwx 1 peter None 7610368 Jan 16 18:51 lazarus.exe And for debugging: $ gdb lazarus.exe (gdb) br main No symbol table is loaded. Use the file command. (gdb) symbol-file lazarus1.dbg Reading symbols from /cygdrive/d/lazarus/lazarus.dbg...done. (gdb) br main Breakpoint 1 at 0x401bf9: file lazarus.pp, line 77. (gdb) Peter _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/16, Peter Vreman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: At 18:37 16-1-2008, you wrote: Hi, 2008/1/16, Christian U. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK guys now I OFFICIALLY close this very long, long thread! :) Are you trying to create an patch ? If not please inform me than i will do. I have just found a method to move ALL the debug data and symbols to an external .dbg file, obtaining a just stripped compiled file and the full debug functionalities (only with the .dbg file presents). Currently I must execute 3 steps to obtain this (after every compilation). I'm working to can do all with a single step (just on beta testing)! :) I can see only 2 steps: $ objcopy -R .text -R .data lazarus.exe lazarus1.dbg $ strip lazarus.exe Resulting files: -rwxr-xr-x 1 peter None 41551141 Jan 16 18:50 lazarus.dbg -rwxrwxrwx 1 peter None 7610368 Jan 16 18:51 lazarus.exe And for debugging: $ gdb lazarus.exe (gdb) br main No symbol table is loaded. Use the file command. (gdb) symbol-file lazarus1.dbg Reading symbols from /cygdrive/d/lazarus/lazarus.dbg...done. (gdb) br main Breakpoint 1 at 0x401bf9: file lazarus.pp, line 77. (gdb) I need 3 steps because I don not change the mode lazarus call the GDB. After my changes just a lazarus run to can use a stripped (as --strip-all) compiled file with all the debug data in an external file (and is possible debug also the LCL). Peter _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria wrote: Hi, 2008/1/16, Peter Vreman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: At 18:37 16-1-2008, you wrote: Hi, 2008/1/16, Christian U. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK guys now I OFFICIALLY close this very long, long thread! :) Are you trying to create an patch ? If not please inform me than i will do. I have just found a method to move ALL the debug data and symbols to an external .dbg file, obtaining a just stripped compiled file and the full debug functionalities (only with the .dbg file presents). Currently I must execute 3 steps to obtain this (after every compilation). I'm working to can do all with a single step (just on beta testing)! :) I can see only 2 steps: $ objcopy -R .text -R .data lazarus.exe lazarus1.dbg $ strip lazarus.exe Resulting files: -rwxr-xr-x 1 peter None 41551141 Jan 16 18:50 lazarus.dbg -rwxrwxrwx 1 peter None 7610368 Jan 16 18:51 lazarus.exe And for debugging: $ gdb lazarus.exe (gdb) br main No symbol table is loaded. Use the file command. (gdb) symbol-file lazarus1.dbg Reading symbols from /cygdrive/d/lazarus/lazarus.dbg...done. (gdb) br main Breakpoint 1 at 0x401bf9: file lazarus.pp, line 77. (gdb) I need 3 steps because I don not change the mode lazarus call the GDB. After my changes just a lazarus run to can use a stripped (as --strip-all) compiled file with all the debug data in an external file (and is possible debug also the LCL). Peter Wait a moment ! If this is possible with command line gdb, then it must be possible also from Lazarus IDE,right ? Or from executable itself to create stacktrace ? Could I just strip executable and provide external file .dbg and still get full stacktrace in case of exception ? Regards Boguslaw _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
$ gdb lazarus.exe (gdb) br main No symbol table is loaded. Use the file command. (gdb) symbol-file lazarus1.dbg Reading symbols from /cygdrive/d/lazarus/lazarus.dbg...done. (gdb) br main Breakpoint 1 at 0x401bf9: file lazarus.pp, line 77. (gdb) I need 3 steps because I don not change the mode lazarus call the GDB. After my changes just a lazarus run to can use a stripped (as --strip-all) compiled file with all the debug data in an external file (and is possible debug also the LCL). Peter Wait a moment ! If this is possible with command line gdb, then it must be possible also from Lazarus IDE,right ? Or from executable itself to create stacktrace ? Could I just strip executable and provide external file .dbg and still get full stacktrace in case of exception ? Thread continued on fpc-devel. Peter _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Hi to all, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. We know that: 1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project; 2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb). I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to debug our project with a really little size increasing. Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to reduce the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows). We'll can continue to debug our projects but we'll CANNOT debug the LCL code. To obtain this little miracle just use the following command (from the shell): What do you think about? ;) irony Maybe not such a bad idea. Maybe we expect too much from our users. - That they know point 1) and 2) from above. - That they want to know why things go wrong in the LCL and can handle stepping though it, and prefer that above a list of hexdigits in their back traces. /irony IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi Vincent, 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Hi to all, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. We know that: 1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project; 2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb). I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to debug our project with a really little size increasing. Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to reduce the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows). We'll can continue to debug our projects but we'll CANNOT debug the LCL code. To obtain this little miracle just use the following command (from the shell): What do you think about? ;) irony Maybe not such a bad idea. Maybe we expect too much from our users. - That they know point 1) and 2) from above. - That they want to know why things go wrong in the LCL and can handle stepping though it, and prefer that above a list of hexdigits in their back traces. /irony IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. Vincent Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! So what? It is their loss. If they cannot even find out how to do this, how can we expect them to become contributors? So, it even is a nice selection mechanism for new users. (OK, maybe I am overreaction now). Remember Lazarus is not a commercial product that needs users to survive, it is a open source project that needs contributors (for the LCL, the IDE, for documentation, for testing (which needs good backtraces), for writing and porting components) to survive. I don't expect users who cannot find out how to put the checkboxes in the compiler options dialog (yes, we can improve the IDE in this area), to be much of an help. But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Because it excludes the use of debug information for users that want that information. Removing it is trivial, adding it much harder. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Others benefits: 1)...speedup compilation (allocated less memory and write less bytes on disk). 2)...decreases Installation size; 3)...do not confuse new users with LCL code, during the debugging process. I think it can be set as an installation Please, provide patches for the several create installer scripts. or a Project option (as in Delphi for the Use Debug DCUs compiler option)! How is this different from using the correct compiler options? Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Others benefits: 1)...speedup compilation (allocated less memory and write less bytes on disk). 2)...decreases Installation size; 3)...do not confuse new users with LCL code, during the debugging process. I think it can be set as an installation or a Project option (as in Delphi for the Use Debug DCUs compiler option)! -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria. 2008/1/15, Fabio Dell'Aria [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Vincent, 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Hi to all, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. We know that: 1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project; 2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb). I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to debug our project with a really little size increasing. Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to reduce the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows). We'll can continue to debug our projects but we'll CANNOT debug the LCL code. To obtain this little miracle just use the following command (from the shell): What do you think about? ;) irony Maybe not such a bad idea. Maybe we expect too much from our users. - That they know point 1) and 2) from above. - That they want to know why things go wrong in the LCL and can handle stepping though it, and prefer that above a list of hexdigits in their back traces. /irony IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. Vincent Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Ciao Fabio, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. imho, this is not the reason because many new users don't use Lazarus. I believe first one is that they don't trust in opensource software, which instead is a winner choice, always imho, but a bit painful to begin. Just a quick google search and you can see as you said that you can stripping it and upx it, so size it is not a great issue. For tech solution you proposed I will let talk more experts lazarus developer than me ;) Antonio -- Antonio Sanguigni alias slapshot -- GioveLUG (Linux User Group) - http://www.giovelug.org Edupup (Educational distro) - http://www.edupup.org
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! This kind of programmers don't deserve to develope with Lazarus and FPC ;-). Just joking a bit ! :-) Antonio -- Antonio Sanguigni alias slapshot -- GioveLUG (Linux User Group) - http://www.giovelug.org Edupup (Educational distro) - http://www.edupup.org
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
HI, 2008/1/15, Antonio Sanguigni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! This kind of programmers don't deserve to develope with Lazarus and FPC ;-). Just joking a bit ! :-) Yes I understand, but if this became an option (active by default) what can be the negative impact? Is only an option. So why do not implement it. We can only obtain more lazarus developers (also for joke)! :) Why not? Antonio -- Antonio Sanguigni alias slapshot -- GioveLUG (Linux User Group) - http://www.giovelug.org Edupup (Educational distro) - http://www.edupup.org -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! So what? It is their loss. If they cannot even find out how to do this, how can we expect them to become contributors? So, it even is a nice selection mechanism for new users. (OK, maybe I am overreaction now). Remember Lazarus is not a commercial product that needs users to survive, it is a open source project that needs contributors (for the LCL, the IDE, for documentation, for testing (which needs good backtraces), for writing and porting components) to survive. I don't expect users who cannot find out how to put the checkboxes in the compiler options dialog (yes, we can improve the IDE in this area), to be much of an help. I can understand your pint of view Vincent. But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Because it excludes the use of debug information for users that want that information. Removing it is trivial, adding it much harder. Can be created different base paths, one containing the debugged .o files and one without (as Delphi just done). Delphi simply change the search path for the RTL/VCL .DCU files relating to the Use Debug DCUs compiler option. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Because it excludes the use of debug information for users that want that information. Removing it is trivial, adding it much harder. Can be created different base paths, one containing the debugged .o files and one without (as Delphi just done). Delphi simply change the search path for the RTL/VCL .DCU files relating to the Use Debug DCUs compiler option. I am always for more choice, not for replacing one option by a worse option. So, WAAAYP. * Vincent * see http://ik.homelinux.org/projects/files/quotes.txt _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! One doesn't loose much users that way. People that are so easily turned off, will always find something else, or don't really need it. Note also that such users typically don't know how to run shellscripts in the first place. But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Well, you are right somewhat. Delphi has a separate VCL and a debug vcl for this purpose. However the core maintainers are a bit busy, so we would need extra resources for that. Maybe you should make a design document detailing how to do this, and most importantly, inventorise - the problems of having multiple LCLs in an eco system where the IDE is also using the LCL, - directory structure - distribution size (another such eternal size problem). Maybe an autobuilder (only distribute source?), another project, another document - how to configure in the IDE. - what should be default, - how to get backtraces (lineinfo) without full debuginfo, do we need a third type? etc etc. I'm sure if you spend some time on it, you can really do good here. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
I think to be the typical example of the average user, so I'll give my opinion as well. - I don't care about the download size, so I am fine with downloading the full debugging objects files - I don't care about hard disk size (being anyone not too much for nowadays): the installer could run the object script at the end and it could create the non-debugging-LCL objects tree - I would love the option to build against the debugging-LCL objects or the non-debugging-LCL ones - I would really like to see some kind of clean up of the compiler/linker options, in order to have easier access to the strip tool ok...I should have written all of this to Santa Claus by XmasI'm always late :-) R# 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: or a Project option (as in Delphi for the Use Debug DCUs compiler option)! How is this different from using the correct compiler options? Using only the -Xs compiler option remove all the debug info and is impossible debug my project, my option continue to can debug the project only hiding the LCL sources. ;) I see. Thanks. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: or a Project option (as in Delphi for the Use Debug DCUs compiler option)! How is this different from using the correct compiler options? Using only the -Xs compiler option remove all the debug info and is impossible debug my project, my option continue to can debug the project only hiding the LCL sources. ;) I see. Thanks. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Others benefits: 1)...speedup compilation (allocated less memory and write less bytes on disk). 2)...decreases Installation size; 3)...do not confuse new users with LCL code, during the debugging process. I think it can be set as an installation Please, provide patches for the several create installer scripts. ehehehehe, you are playing hard now Vincent! :) or a Project option (as in Delphi for the Use Debug DCUs compiler option)! How is this different from using the correct compiler options? Using only the -Xs compiler option remove all the debug info and is impossible debug my project, my option continue to can debug the project only hiding the LCL sources. ;) Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Because it excludes the use of debug information for users that want that information. Removing it is trivial, adding it much harder. Can be created different base paths, one containing the debugged .o files and one without (as Delphi just done). Delphi simply change the search path for the RTL/VCL .DCU files relating to the Use Debug DCUs compiler option. I am always for more choice, not for replacing one option by a worse option. So, WAAAYP. * What? :-S Vincent * see http://ik.homelinux.org/projects/files/quotes.txt _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent Snijders ha scritto: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Others benefits: 1)...speedup compilation (allocated less memory and write less bytes on disk). 2)...decreases Installation size; 3)...do not confuse new users with LCL code, during the debugging process. I think it can be set as an installation Please, provide patches for the several create installer scripts. or a Project option (as in Delphi for the Use Debug DCUs compiler option)! How is this different from using the correct compiler options? My two cents. Without LCL debug information it becomes very hard to debug your code. You've done something wrong, you get an exception, and in most cases the exception will pop up when LCL-RTL code is executed. If you don't see the code, if your stack trace just tells 0FFE54621 instead of gtk_bitmap_free (just making up a fake example) you can't understand that the exceptions comes from your bitmap being null. Instead of tampering with debug information, why not add an extra menu entry Minimize application size to the Tools menu, which just executes a strip -s $TargetFile? I've just added that as a custom tool, but newbies can find it handy. Giuliano -- Giuliano Colla Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong (O. Wilde) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project; 2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb). I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to debug our project with a really little size increasing. Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to reduce the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows). If the debugger gdb can support the dwarf debug info the size of the binary will be already a lot smaller. So it isn't a problem of FPC but of the debuggers what debuginfo is supported. See below what the difference on the lazarus binary: ~/lazarus ls -l lazarus-* -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 25630931 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-dwarf -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 74177091 Jan 15 13:02 lazarus-stabs -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 9423528 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-stripped _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
So why do not use the dwarf debug format (excuse my ignorance) ? 2008/1/15, Peter Vreman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project; 2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb). I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to debug our project with a really little size increasing. Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to reduce the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows). If the debugger gdb can support the dwarf debug info the size of the binary will be already a lot smaller. So it isn't a problem of FPC but of the debuggers what debuginfo is supported. See below what the difference on the lazarus binary: ~/lazarus ls -l lazarus-* -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 25630931 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-dwarf -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 74177091 Jan 15 13:02 lazarus-stabs -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 9423528 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-stripped _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
If the debugger gdb can support the dwarf debug info the size of the binary will be already a lot smaller. So it isn't a problem of FPC but of the debuggers what debuginfo is supported. See below what the difference on the lazarus binary: ~/lazarus ls -l lazarus-* -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 25630931 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-dwarf -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 74177091 Jan 15 13:02 lazarus-stabs -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 9423528 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-stripped So why do not use the dwarf debug format (excuse my ignorance) ? First: Please reply at the bottom of the messages. The answer to your question was already in my reply quoted above. The debugger gdb support for dwarf was not good enough and not supported on all platforms (especially windows). It is improving, but it needs to be tested well before we can make dwarf debuginfo for some platforms the default in fpc. Peter _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria wrote: Hi to all, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. We know that: 1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project; 2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb). I just put this in After Complilation: ..\..\IDE\fpc\2.2.0\bin\i386-win32\strip.exe --strip-all $(TargetFile) I have to run this command only when I do a full build. Seems to work pretty well. -- Warm Regards, Lee The only thing that kept me out college...was high school. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Jan 15, 2008, at 4:02 PM, Andrew Brunner wrote: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. IMO this file size issue is a serious problem for popular utilities that will run on anything. 8MB is totally unacceptable. We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. 8Mb is unacceptable for an executable which would take 2Mb for a final release, not for working on it. These 8Mb are generated for a good reason. All this discussion remember me another one about multiple target. This feature as far I remember is planned, but there are already a lot of things to fix/do before that. I am sure it is your solution. You would be able to run in Debug/Release mode as a Delphian would do. How long will that take? To follow the reaction of Vincent, I think the core team have already a lot of work to do. The kind of work that extern contributors can not do to my mind because it's required a deep knowledge of the LCL/ Lazarus/... However for this kind of work, others can help them, to create a patch, test it and modify it. Consequently, I am not sure this is the good question :) -- Damien Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le temps n'a pas d'importance. Seul le code est important -- (f00ty) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
I just put this in After Complilation: ..\..\IDE\fpc\2.2.0\bin\i386-win32\strip.exe --strip-all $(TargetFile) I have to run this command only when I do a full build. Seems to work pretty well. That's what I've been doing as well. As I said, it's just one command away, yet it's so simple. I'm no expert on both FPC or Lazarus, but I could find the solution after a few minutes googling, and google took me to Lazarus wiki. I still don't understand why exe size is a big issue. :( Yes, I agree that it'd be nice if Lazarus somehow provides it as an check box option, or provide some debug format, or whatever other possible solution. But since current solution is so simple, I think we should focus on something more important first. Unless, as usual, someone would do it by himself and contribute a ready-to-use patch. ;) -Bee- has Bee.ography at: http://beeography.wordpress.com _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Andrew Brunner schreef: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. Do you have a similar comparison for Open Source projects? The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. Sorry. I try to be more welcome next time or not respond at all. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO this file size issue is a serious problem for popular utilities that will run on anything. 8MB is totally unacceptable. We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. How long will that take? A checkbox? Probably one or two releases. Most likely before Lazarus 1.0 (whenever that is). Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Andrew Brunner wrote: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. IMO this file size issue is a serious problem for popular utilities that will run on anything. 8MB is totally unacceptable. We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. How long will that take? Zero time. This checkbox exists: Menu: Project|Compiler options Tab: 'Linking' Checkbox: 'Strip symbols from Executable (-Xs)' So what is the problem ? Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. IMO this file size issue is a serious problem for popular utilities that will run on anything. 8MB is totally unacceptable. We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. How long will that take? _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/15, Andrew Brunner [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. [...] We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. How long will that take? Of course I'm absolutely agree with you! ;-) -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Am 15.01.2008 um 17:02 schrieb Andrew Brunner: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. Full ack on this. And: A wide spread of Lazarus is of course in every case a big advantage. Imagine how much talented programmers are out there who have never heard of Lazarus. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Zero time. This checkbox exists: Menu: Project|Compiler options Tab: 'Linking' Checkbox: 'Strip symbols from Executable (-Xs)' So what is the problem ? The size remains the same for me (Ubuntu). -- Damien Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le temps n'a pas d'importance. Seul le code est important -- (f00ty) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Am 15.01.2008 um 17:11 schrieb Vincent Snijders: Andrew Brunner schreef: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. Do you have a similar comparison for Open Source projects? Compare Linux with FreeBSD. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi, 2008/1/15, Bee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just put this in After Complilation: ..\..\IDE\fpc\2.2.0\bin\i386-win32\strip.exe --strip-all $(TargetFile) I have to run this command only when I do a full build. Seems to work pretty well. That's what I've been doing as well. As I said, it's just one command away, yet it's so simple. I'm no expert on both FPC or Lazarus, but I could find the solution after a few minutes googling, and google took me to Lazarus wiki. I still don't understand why exe size is a big issue. :( Yes, I agree that it'd be nice if Lazarus somehow provides it as an check box option, or provide some debug format, or whatever other possible solution. But since current solution is so simple, I think we should focus on something more important first. Unless, as usual, someone would do it by himself and contribute a ready-to-use patch. ;) -Bee- has Bee.ography at: http://beeography.wordpress.com _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives The problem is that with my solution the user can continue to debug its project obtaining a compiled file of about 2Mb instead of 12.5 Mb. The stripped equivalent file will be 1.2 Mb but is impossible debug it! However not was my intention generate so many confusion, so I think is the time to stop this long thread. If I'll can I'll create and test a patch otherwise happy to see all you here! Bye, bye! :) For Vincent: I hope to haven't destroy your digestion (TDigestion.Free). I'm happy to have received your answers. ;-) -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 05:44:15PM +0200, Albert Zeyer wrote: Andrew Brunner schreef: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. Do you have a similar comparison for Open Source projects? Compare Linux with FreeBSD. I've no idea what you mean by that remark. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. On desktop application, it already does a tough rival to Java, besides wxWidgets. But on web application, FPC/Lazarus is still far behind Java. GWT add more distance. FPC's CGI framework (if it's done) or project like PWU would subtract the distance, but not much. Morfik is the way to make FPC/Lazarus becomes a potential tough rival to Java on web application. Unfortunately, it's closed and commercial. :( -Bee- has Bee.ography at: http://beeography.wordpress.com _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 10:02:28AM -0500, Andrew Brunner wrote: I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. Or because the people poured in a truckload of work to finish it. Help us! The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. We have enough attitude of our own (pun intended). Hours of serious work is what the project need. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. IMO this file size issue is a serious problem for popular utilities that will run on anything. 8MB is totally unacceptable. We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. Totally useless. It doesn't even resolve the stripping of code of end binaries that is not in the LCL, and is a one way only street. Nobody wants to get his feet wet on his tools, but sometimes you simply have to, and you can't always determine this on installation. So if the complainers are really serious, I expect them to make a thorough investigation of the problem, including several usecases from multiple perspectives, not a lame attempt at micromanaging Lazarus devels by just add a tickbox or nobody will use Lazarus kind of attitude. P.s. I'm not a lazarus devel. But I've been on this list a long time, and have countless fruitless proposals that bypass reality come and go. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
-Original Message- From: Andrew Brunner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 08:02 To: lazarus@miraclec.com Subject: RE: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue! Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. IMO this file size issue is a serious problem for popular utilities that will run on anything. 8MB is totally unacceptable. We need a check box option in the compiler section to strip out all debugging code from LCL and make our distros tiny. How long will that take? While a compiler option would be great, having the debug code in the run file during the development and debug cycle is great. Once you are ready to deploy the application it is a simple matter of stripping out the debug symbols and compressing the file: strip filename upx filename then send it on it's happy way. Jeff Steinkamp - N7YG Tucson, AZ SCUD Missile Coordinates N32-13-55.01 W110-50-51.91 http://www.n7yg.com Linux User #420428 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Andrew Brunner wrote: Vincent: IOW: I expect Lazarus users to be knowledgeable, Lazarus is not for fools. I offer you all this. The #1 reason why Microsoft Windows (3 and up) took off and became so popular was Visual Basic for idiots and Turbo Pascal / Delphi for the coders between C++ and VB. The long term success of this project would be cemented if we all keep a more welcoming attitude to all walks of developers. (VB, Delphi, and C++) types should be able to utilize Lazarus in the years to come. Lazarus should even have an Express edition with more powerful features not even available. IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. I agree. Obviously the Lazarus project needs people to contribute, but without new users getting interested, there would just be the developers of Lazarus and established Delphi people looking for cross platform tools. Wooing new developers and developers from other languages I believe will pay handsome dividends to the project later on as their knowledge and comfort with the product mature. -- Warm Regards, Lee The only thing that kept me out college...was high school. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 04:15:46PM +0100, Marius wrote: Fabio Dell'Aria wrote: Hi to all, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. I cannot find the original thread, but i believe i have read something about a Debug/Release configuration which would solve this whole issue the nice way. I know for sure its on the roadmap.. In the mean time a little checkbox would do the trick to remove all debug stuff (if its not to many trouble to implement). But i'm no expert in the debug area. No it would not, since depending on definition it is either a one way strip all process, or quite complex. It's like adding a little checkbox to add .NET code generation. The checkbox is not that much work _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 06:28:12PM +0200, Albert Zeyer wrote: I've no idea what you mean by that remark. Linux became popular because it was/is easy to install. (OK, not gained by the Linux kernel developers itself but by the community around.) Linux got a lot of funding due to hype. And the hype was mostly around the single student Linus cult, which was simply more marketable than a multi person core of dedicated but relatively colourless professionals. FreeBSD not, though from the quality point of view it's better. It didn't have the hype. You have to have a motivation to start installing in the first place. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Peter Vreman wrote: If the debugger gdb can support the dwarf debug info the size of the binary will be already a lot smaller. So it isn't a problem of FPC but of the debuggers what debuginfo is supported. See below what the difference on the lazarus binary: ~/lazarus ls -l lazarus-* -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 25630931 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-dwarf -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 74177091 Jan 15 13:02 lazarus-stabs -rwxr-xr-x 1 pvreman kmem 9423528 Jan 15 13:00 lazarus-stripped So why do not use the dwarf debug format (excuse my ignorance) ? First: Please reply at the bottom of the messages. The answer to your question was already in my reply quoted above. The debugger gdb support for dwarf was not good enough and not supported on all platforms (especially windows). It is improving, but it needs to be tested well before we can make dwarf debuginfo for some platforms the default in fpc. Peter We need a native debugger support for FPC/Lazarus programs on all platforms.That's the big issue everyone seems to avoid talking about... Boguslaw _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent Snijders schrieb: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! So what? It is their loss. If they cannot even find out how to do this, how can we expect them to become contributors? So, it even is a nice selection mechanism for new users. (OK, maybe I am overreaction now). Remember Lazarus is not a commercial product that needs users to survive, it is a open source project that needs contributors (for the LCL, the IDE, for documentation, for testing (which needs good backtraces), for writing and porting components) to survive. I don't expect users who cannot find out how to put the checkboxes in the compiler options dialog (yes, we can improve the IDE in this area), to be much of an help. Hmmm - that are hard words for someone who said that he want's to promote Lazarus. Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... regards Lukas -- software security networks Lukas Gradl lazarus#ssn.at Eduard-Bodem-Gasse 9 A - 6020 Innsbruck Tel: +43-720-300168-0 Fax: +43-512-341033-19 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
We need a native debugger support for FPC/Lazarus programs on all platforms.That's the big issue everyone seems to avoid talking about... Boguslaw An initial development this is at Lazarus\debugger\windebug\fpwd by Marc. Is it stopped? -- Att, Wanderlan Santos dos Anjos
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Am 15.01.2008 um 18:35 schrieb Marco van de Voort: On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 06:28:12PM +0200, Albert Zeyer wrote: I've no idea what you mean by that remark. Linux became popular because it was/is easy to install. (OK, not gained by the Linux kernel developers itself but by the community around.) Linux got a lot of funding due to hype. And the hype was mostly around the single student Linus cult, which was simply more marketable than a multi person core of dedicated but relatively colourless professionals. FreeBSD not, though from the quality point of view it's better. It didn't have the hype. You have to have a motivation to start installing in the first place. Yes that was one hype. But the reason to be so wide spread is mainly that it was easy to install and that it (often) works better in comparison with FreeBSD. Also you see what you get by popularity: More support. Why would you not install FreeBSD instead of Linux? Mostly it's because of a non-supported feature or a hardware. And that is mainly because of the smaller community and less support by companies. And that is mainly because of less popularity and less support. Or perhaps it's also because it seems too complicated instead of using Linux. And then you are also again at the point I wanted to point out. Or generally, some random person, why would he install Linux instead of FreeBSD? Probably because he has never heard of FreeBSD. All I wanted to say is: Popularity is important (at least gives much advantages). And easiness will increase popularity. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Fabio Dell'Aria schrieb:
Hi to all,
all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too
BIG compiled files.
We know that:
1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project;
2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce drastically
the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2 Mb).
I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to debug
our project with a really little size increasing.
Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to reduce
the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows).
We'll can continue to debug our projects but we'll CANNOT debug the LCL
code.
To obtain this little miracle just use the following command (from the
shell):
For Windows:
FOR /R Your_Lazarus_Folder %v IN (*.o) DO strip --strip-debug %~fv
For Linux:
sudo find /your_lazarus_folder -name *.o -exec strip --strip-debug {} \;
All of the solutions provided here are not that ideal when USING (and
not developing) Lazarus.
In many cases I want to debug MY code - and not the LCL-Code. But
sometimes, I've to search inside the LCL as well. So I would appreciate
to switch to either debug the LCL or link an LCL without debug-symbols.
regards
Lukas
--
software security networks
Lukas Gradl lazarus#ssn.at
Eduard-Bodem-Gasse 9
A - 6020 Innsbruck
Tel: +43-720-300168-0
Fax: +43-512-341033-19
_
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Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent Snijders schrieb: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! So what? It is their loss. If they cannot even find out how to do this, how can we expect them to become contributors? So, it even is a nice selection mechanism for new users. (OK, maybe I am overreaction now). Remember Lazarus is not a commercial product that needs users to survive, it is a open source project that needs contributors (for the LCL, the IDE, for documentation, for testing (which needs good backtraces), for writing and porting components) to survive. I don't expect users who cannot find out how to put the checkboxes in the compiler options dialog (yes, we can improve the IDE in this area), to be much of an help. NO ! As more users use Lazarus as more contributors are there and also as testers there helpful. I dont understand your meaning vincent. This solution has 4 benefits and it can be an simple Option when building Lazarus strip debuginfo from LCL files that is on per default. Who want to debug lcl code (sure only a very samll percentage) can just deactivate it, rebuild Lazarus and good is. Its an real good ihea also the debugger dont find a lot of fpc .inc files in lcl code thats also solved with it. But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Because it excludes the use of debug information for users that want that information. Removing it is trivial, adding it much harder. Adding is just a recompile of Lazarus what is hard on this ? Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Zero time. This checkbox exists: Menu: Project|Compiler options Tab: 'Linking' Checkbox: 'Strip symbols from Executable (-Xs)' So what is the problem ? You cant debug after this if you just strip debug code from lcl you can debug you App and Executable is small. Its an great Option. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Lukas Gradl schreef: Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent Snijders schrieb: Lukas Gradl schreef: Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? They are testers and they infect others by the virus ;) More users are already an good thing. Why Lazarus is Open Source ? If you dont need users you can also work with your 2 neighbours on it in your cellar. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent Snijders wrote: Lukas Gradl schreef: Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? Vincent Vincent, I think not all users will contribute, maybe the majority of them will not, but they help the project nonetheless, IMO. 1. Some that do not contribute a lot will still spread the word of Lazarus, especially if their experiences with Lazarus are good ones. 2. Some *will* contribute a little, a few may contribute a lot in various ways (documentation/testing if not actual code contributions). I believe the Law of Averages is simply in control as far as this goes. As the user based increases so will the contributions, bug reports, documentation, etc. Maybe its like panning for gold! Thanks for your hard work, Vincent (and other Lazarus developers). Your work does not go unappreciated :) -- Warm Regards, Lee The only thing that kept me out college...was high school. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Christian U. schreef: Vincent Snijders schrieb: Fabio Dell'Aria schreef: Yes I understand but why loose so many new users? All the programmers come from Delphi reports this issue and only a little subset of them check for a solution on Google. Others are lost! So what? It is their loss. If they cannot even find out how to do this, how can we expect them to become contributors? So, it even is a nice selection mechanism for new users. (OK, maybe I am overreaction now). Remember Lazarus is not a commercial product that needs users to survive, it is a open source project that needs contributors (for the LCL, the IDE, for documentation, for testing (which needs good backtraces), for writing and porting components) to survive. I don't expect users who cannot find out how to put the checkboxes in the compiler options dialog (yes, we can improve the IDE in this area), to be much of an help. NO ! As more users use Lazarus as more contributors are there and also as testers there helpful. I dont understand your meaning vincent. Really simple, let's draw it black/white to get the message across. I attack the simple hypothesis: More users leads to more contributors. I defend the hypothesis: Users who cannot find out how to remove debug info from executable are unlike to become contributors (giving good advice in forums, providing good bug reproducible bug report with example programs and back traces, patches, writing good example programs for the wiki, contributing documentation). They are more likely to inhibit the advance of Lazarus by giving misinformation in forums, cluttering the bug tracker with hard the reproduce bug reports, etc. This solution has 4 benefits and it can be an simple Option when building Lazarus strip debuginfo from LCL files that is on per default. Who want to debug lcl code (sure only a very samll percentage) can just deactivate it, rebuild Lazarus and good is. Its an real good ihea also the debugger dont find a lot of fpc .inc files in lcl code thats also solved with it. Yes, patches are welcome. But if a solution exists why do not use it? I do not understand! :( Because it excludes the use of debug information for users that want that information. Removing it is trivial, adding it much harder. Adding is just a recompile of Lazarus what is hard on this ? Explain that to somebody who cannot find out how to set a couple of checkboxes in the compiler options. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Christian U. schreef: Vincent Snijders schrieb: Lukas Gradl schreef: Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? Lazarus exists to develop Object Pascal programs with FPC. For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? They are testers and they infect others by the virus ;) More users are already an good thing. Well, that was my question, please explain why. What benifit gets Lazarus from a user? Lazarus doesn't get a thing for users that just uses Lazarus and doesn't contribute anything. Codegear for example gets a couple of hundreds of dollars for each user. Why Lazarus is Open Source ? If you dont need users you can also work with your 2 neighbours on it in your cellar. No, working with my two neighbours would not work. Lazarus needs lot's of testers, document writers, support givers in the forums (main, distro-specific and in several languages), graphical designers. If me and my two neigbours work on it in my rate, we couldn't finished it in my lifetime. So we need more developers and more other contributors, that can help to alleviate the tasks of the developers and may become developers in the future. So what we need it users that are willing to become contributors, not users that contribute nothing. They are welcome of course. But they are not *needed* for Lazarus to advance. Please, correct me, where I am making a mistake in my reasoning. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Hi Vincent, 2008/1/15, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Christian U. schreef: Vincent Snijders schrieb: Lukas Gradl schreef: Do you really think, Lazarus should only exist to develop Lazarus? Lazarus exists to develop Object Pascal programs with FPC. For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? They are testers and they infect others by the virus ;) More users are already an good thing. Well, that was my question, please explain why. What benifit gets Lazarus from a user? Lazarus doesn't get a thing for users that just uses Lazarus and doesn't contribute anything. Codegear for example gets a couple of hundreds of dollars for each user. Why Lazarus is Open Source ? If you dont need users you can also work with your 2 neighbours on it in your cellar. No, working with my two neighbours would not work. Lazarus needs lot's of testers, document writers, support givers in the forums (main, distro-specific and in several languages), graphical designers. If me and my two neigbours work on it in my rate, we couldn't finished it in my lifetime. So we need more developers and more other contributors, that can help to alleviate the tasks of the developers and may become developers in the future. So what we need it users that are willing to become contributors, not users that contribute nothing. They are welcome of course. But they are not *needed* for Lazarus to advance. Please, correct me, where I am making a mistake in my reasoning. Vincent I'm currently developing on some lazarus patches (Docked IDE, Debugger workaround to support Object Properties, ... others ...), but in the last years one of the think stopped me starts with lazarus was also the BIG compiled file question (not only but also this). My daily work is developing in Delphi and C++Builder and I know the Win32 internals so I aren't new to the hard work, but the compiled file issues stop me in the past years to uses lazarus. So I think it can stop others good developers. Is this possible for you? ;) My work site: http://www.eurekalog.com -- Best regards... Fabio Dell'Aria.
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Am 15.01.2008 um 20:26 schrieb Vincent Snijders: For creating a successful and strong development tool (which is the goal of the whole project AFAIK) you need not only contributors but users as well... Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? They are testers and they infect others by the virus ;) More users are already an good thing. Well, that was my question, please explain why. What benifit gets Lazarus from a user? Lazarus doesn't get a thing for users that just uses Lazarus and doesn't contribute anything. More users = more popularity = more contributors = patches Which of these consequences are wrong for you? _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
I defend the hypothesis: Users who cannot find out how to remove debug info from executable are unlike to become contributors (giving good advice in forums, providing good bug reproducible bug report with example programs and back traces, patches, writing good example programs for the wiki, contributing documentation). They are more likely to inhibit the advance of Lazarus by giving misinformation in forums, cluttering the bug tracker with hard the reproduce bug reports, etc. I understand you POV but i think more users means more contributors. And espeacially idiotic users are easy to impress :p This solution has 4 benefits and it can be an simple Option when building Lazarus strip debuginfo from LCL files that is on per default. Who want to debug lcl code (sure only a very samll percentage) can just deactivate it, rebuild Lazarus and good is. Its an real good ihea also the debugger dont find a lot of fpc .inc files in lcl code thats also solved with it. Yes, patches are welcome. Ill wait some weeks if Fabio posts an patch, when not ill try. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent Snijders wrote: No, working with my two neighbours would not work. Lazarus needs lot's of testers, document writers, support givers in the forums (main, distro-specific and in several languages), graphical designers. If me and my two neigbours work on it in my rate, we couldn't finished it in my lifetime. So we need more developers and more other contributors, that can help to alleviate the tasks of the developers and may become developers in the future. So what we need it users that are willing to become contributors, not users that contribute nothing. They are welcome of course. But they are not *needed* for Lazarus to advance. You need the crowd for making advertisement for the pascal language and the attractive multiplatform character of fpc/lazarus compared to the ms.codegear.net.forsale, and because of this you will get more devels. Or do you think there other way's to get the attention of more developers? Greetings, Marius _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Well, that was my question, please explain why. What benifit gets Lazarus from a user? Lazarus doesn't get a thing for users that just uses Lazarus and doesn't contribute anything. Codegear for example gets a couple of hundreds of dollars for each user. Not every user that looks first to the Executable Size, and uninstall lazarus or is pointed every second time the debugger hits an exception in lcl code is automatically an idiot. but the first impression is an very importend thing. And every core developer should be interested in lazarus making an good first impression. Only my opinion. Why Lazarus is Open Source ? If you dont need users you can also work with your 2 neighbours on it in your cellar. No, working with my two neighbours would not work. Lazarus needs lot's of testers, document writers, support givers in the forums (main, distro-specific and in several languages), graphical designers. Also not so good programmers can be good testers, graphical designers, help writers and so on. If me and my two neigbours work on it in my rate, we couldn't finished it in my lifetime. So we need more developers and more other contributors, that can help to alleviate the tasks of the developers and may become developers in the future. You get as more developers as more users are use it. At least when a lot of people programm with lazarus it is interisting for developers to work on it. Please, correct me, where I am making a mistake in my reasoning. done. best regards Christioan _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Jan 15, 2008, at 7:57 PM, Christian U. wrote: I defend the hypothesis: Users who cannot find out how to remove debug info from executable are unlike to become contributors (giving good advice in forums, providing good bug reproducible bug report with example programs and back traces, patches, writing good example programs for the wiki, contributing documentation). They are more likely to inhibit the advance of Lazarus by giving misinformation in forums, cluttering the bug tracker with hard the reproduce bug reports, etc. I understand you POV but i think more users means more contributors. And espeacially idiotic users are easy to impress :p This solution has 4 benefits and it can be an simple Option when building Lazarus strip debuginfo from LCL files that is on per default. Who want to debug lcl code (sure only a very samll percentage) can just deactivate it, rebuild Lazarus and good is. Its an real good ihea also the debugger dont find a lot of fpc .inc files in lcl code thats also solved with it. Yes, patches are welcome. Ill wait some weeks if Fabio posts an patch, when not ill try. I really don't see the problem with big compiled files. Anyway, if I were a new user to Lazarus, I would be surprised by the big compiled file. As an old Delphian, indeed it would be a bit strange. - Lazarus is not Delphi. Consequently some changes sould appears. - Why so big ? May be there is some related documentation. - May be Google could help : http://www.google.com/search?client=safarirls=en-usq=lazarus+big+executableie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8 - The second result takes you to the FAQ. - The FAQ help you to reduce your execuce using strip or upx. In a few steps you have your solutions. I don't see why you would uninstall Lazarus for that. It is a nonsense. However some novice should be afraid by some remaining bugs or missing features compared to Delphi. That would make sense. When working on your project, who cares of the size if the compilation time is not significantly different ? Honnestly even on an old computer this does not affect my work. After all these considerations, I totally agree on the fact a mecanism to select a different target would be a very good solution. But I am not sure that to not use Lazarus and big executable files are related. -- Damien Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le temps n'a pas d'importance. Seul le code est important -- (f00ty) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Anyway, if I were a new user to Lazarus, I would be surprised by the big compiled file. As an old Delphian, indeed it would be a bit strange. - Lazarus is not Delphi. Consequently some changes sould appears. - Why so big ? May be there is some related documentation. - May be Google could help : http://www.google.com/search?client=safarirls=en-usq=lazarus+big+executableie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8 - The second result takes you to the FAQ. - The FAQ help you to reduce your execuce using strip or upx. Also this faq might help (which is more from FPC) http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Size_Matters _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
I've seen plenty of Scripting solutions for Delphi. Google pascal scripting control or something along those lines... To make Pascal relevant (on the web) - all that's needed is some built-in components that allow interpreted code on the fly. It's not hard for servers to include server side support for this type of thing. Personally, I think to really compete with Java, we should develop a scripting system that actually compiles into Object Code so we're not messing with interpreted code at runtime which should yield the quickest execution times. I would love to see this in the next few years. Now what I'd really like to see is an extended WYSIWYG editor for Pascal on the web for content generation! That would probably take some serious effort though. -Original Message- From: Bee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:55 AM To: lazarus@miraclec.com Subject: Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue! IMO Lazarus has serious potential to rival that of Java. It just needs more time and backing. On desktop application, it already does a tough rival to Java, besides wxWidgets. But on web application, FPC/Lazarus is still far behind Java. GWT add more distance. FPC's CGI framework (if it's done) or project like PWU would subtract the distance, but not much. Morfik is the way to make FPC/Lazarus becomes a potential tough rival to Java on web application. Unfortunately, it's closed and commercial. :( -Bee- _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
nse. However some novice should be afraid by some remaining bugs or missing features compared to Delphi. That would make sense. Take some looks at delphi forums waht the people thinks about lazarus and you will see that a lot of users uninstall it before go to web or read some faq. And if we can make it better why not ? Delphi has also no debuginfos included for the vcl and the lcl debuginfos makes no sense for an normal user so why leave them for default ? Another issue is that i have at time 2 executables one with debuginfo and one without. When one of my customers has an problem that i cant reproduce ill send hin the executable with debuginfos and on an exception my exception handler get automatically an stacktrace and show it to the user. Without debuginfos the stacktrace is useless. When the lcl debuginfos arend there i can publish always the exectable with debuginfos. I hadnt the idea to strip the debuginfos from the lcl bevore. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Why needs Lazarus users that contribute nothing? They are testers and they infect others by the virus ;) More users are already an good thing. Well, that was my question, please explain why. What benifit gets Lazarus from a user? Lazarus doesn't get a thing for users that just uses Lazarus and doesn't contribute anything. Codegear for example gets a couple of hundreds of dollars for each user. The benefit that Lazarus gets from an user is that it is easier to motivate _a developer_ to contribute to a popular and widespread program than to an obscure and mostly unknown one. Why Lazarus is Open Source ? If you dont need users you can also work with your 2 neighbours on it in your cellar. No, working with my two neighbours would not work. Lazarus needs lot's of testers, document writers, support givers in the forums (main, distro-specific and in several languages), graphical designers. If me and my two neigbours work on it in my rate, we couldn't finished it in my lifetime. So we need more developers and more other contributors, that can help to alleviate the tasks of the developers and may become developers in the future. So what we need it users that are willing to become contributors, not users that contribute nothing. They are welcome of course. But they are not *needed* for Lazarus to advance. Please, correct me, where I am making a mistake in my reasoning. There is also the network effect. An user that, apparently, does not contribute to the project but is happy with it will attract more users and eventually a few developers. Sometimes, a small investment in polish and some hand holding, can have some spectacular effects in the future. More. A newbie can grow and eventually help as a tester, document writer, support giver, graphical designers, etc. If he/she was discouraged in the first place... Another aspect is the perceive openness of the project to contributions. If there is the perception of some cadre that you have to be member before you are accepted as a contributor (this is not yet the case of fpc/Lazarus) then the project will have more trouble to find contributors, they will gravitate towards more open projects. That perception of openness comes also from the way that people that are starting are treated. Paulo Costa _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Jan 15, 2008, at 8:47 PM, Christian U. wrote: nse. However some novice should be afraid by some remaining bugs or missing features compared to Delphi. That would make sense. Take some looks at delphi forums Indeed I have never read those forums waht the people thinks about lazarus and you will see that a lot of users uninstall it before go to web or read some faq. What a pity for them. We can do nothing for them. If they don't make critism of lazarus, it does not matter. It is like not buying a new car because of the color. And if we can make it better why not ? Delphi has also no debuginfos included for the vcl and the lcl debuginfos makes no sense for an normal user so why leave them for default ? Another issue is that i have at time 2 executables one with debuginfo and one without. When one of my customers has an problem that i cant reproduce ill send hin the executable with debuginfos and on an exception my exception handler get automatically an stacktrace and show it to the user. Without debuginfos the stacktrace is useless. When the lcl debuginfos arend there i can publish always the exectable with debuginfos. I hadnt the idea to strip the debuginfos from the lcl bevore. That follows the idea that a Target mecanism is needed. I agree it is a need, and it is not trivial for beginners (not normal user. Normal users read the documentation because you cannot play a game without knowing the rules. They already know how to use Delphi when they were a little baby ? ^^) and some modifications are necessary. As far I know this is planned for Lazarus =1.0, in order to make a consistent patch (Old thread - Should be confirmed by a Lazarus team member, I speak for myself here). Waiting for that, the provided documentation is really enough for any programmer and I would add : RTFM :) If you read the Delphi forums, may be you could enlighten those people on this problem, if they consider it as a problem ? -- Damien Gerard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le temps n'a pas d'importance. Seul le code est important -- (f00ty) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:15:46 +0100 Marius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabio Dell'Aria wrote: Hi to all, all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it create too BIG compiled files. I cannot find the original thread, but i believe i have read something about a Debug/Release configuration which would solve this whole issue the nice way. I know for sure its on the roadmap.. In the mean time a little checkbox would do the trick to remove all debug stuff (if its not to many trouble to implement). But i'm no expert in the debug area. See http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Conditional_Compiler_Options Please add your thoughts/ideas how to implement. Mattias _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:59:20 +0100
Lukas Gradl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Fabio Dell'Aria schrieb:
Hi to all,
all we know how many new users do not uses lazarus because it
create too BIG compiled files.
We know that:
1)...the additional options are needed to can debug the project;
2)...just do a simple strip --strip-all filename reduce
drastically the final size (an empty project go from 12.5Mb to 1.2
Mb).
I think to have found a really simple solution to can continue to
debug our project with a really little size increasing.
Just remove all the debug-info from all the LCL object files to
reduce the final compiled file from 12.5Mb to ONLY 2Mb (on Windows).
We'll can continue to debug our projects but we'll CANNOT debug the
LCL code.
To obtain this little miracle just use the following command (from
the shell):
For Windows:
FOR /R Your_Lazarus_Folder %v IN (*.o) DO strip --strip-debug
%~fv
For Linux:
sudo find /your_lazarus_folder -name *.o -exec strip --strip-debug
{} \;
All of the solutions provided here are not that ideal when USING (and
not developing) Lazarus.
In many cases I want to debug MY code - and not the LCL-Code. But
sometimes, I've to search inside the LCL as well. So I would
appreciate to switch to either debug the LCL or link an LCL without
debug-symbols.
That is about 'conditional compiler options'.
Many people want a release/debug mode.
You want to fine control release/debug flag for every package or at
least a set of packages (LCL+FCL+RTL). Please make a proposal on
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Conditional_Compiler_Options
Mattias
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Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Andrew Brunner wrote: I've seen plenty of Scripting solutions for Delphi. Google pascal scripting control or something along those lines... To make Pascal relevant (on the web) - all that's needed is some built-in components that allow interpreted code on the fly. It's not hard for servers to include server side support for this type of thing. Personally, I think to really compete with Java, we should develop a scripting system that actually compiles into Object Code so we're not messing with interpreted code at runtime which should yield the quickest execution times. I would love to see this in the next few years. Now what I'd really like to see is an extended WYSIWYG editor for Pascal on the web for content generation! That would probably take some serious effort though. Andrew, While not a JITed solution, have you seen the work Powtils is doing with FPC compilers on cpanel websites? http://z505.com/videos/d5/linux-delphi-webapp.htm Cool stuff. -- Warm Regards, Lee The only thing that kept me out college...was high school. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Vincent: So what we need it users that are willing to become contributors, not users that contribute nothing. They are welcome of course. But they are not *needed* for Lazarus to advance. Please, correct me, where I am making a mistake in my reasoning. Synergy would be the #1 word that comes to mind when trying to propel this project forward. There is synergy in the masses. By masses I mean VB kind of users who want to expand their skill set a bit and learn to develop for Linux on top of windows. There is serious power there. Lazarus offers serious power to Linux as well. It is the best RAD tool for the platform. I see the Lazarus project as a small piece of a movement towards advancing development opportunities in the realm of an alternative to anything Microsoft has to offer as a development option. Lazarus has serious potential appealing to the masses for both desktop/server and web applications. Kind regards, Andrew Brunner _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
Damien Gerard wrote: Normal users read the documentation because you cannot play a game without knowing the rules. They already know how to use Delphi when they were a little baby ? ^^) and some modifications are necessary. As far I know this is planned for Lazarus =1.0, in order to make a consistent patch (Old thread - Should be confirmed by a Lazarus team member, I speak for myself here). Waiting for that, the provided documentation is really enough for any programmer and I would add : RTFM :) I would like to Read The Fine Manual but it's Read The Scattered Framents. I've been programming since 1965 and written in Delphi since D2. For the last two weeks I've been reading all I can and have written two simple test programs in Lazarus. But I'm baffled trying to convert my main application It compiles but won't link (so I don't have a big compiled EXE). I think I've screwed the environment/compiler etc. options somehow and I can't find helpful explanations for each choice. For example in the IDE I see all my 50+ units listed across the top of the screen but Control/F12 pops up only two entries (lclclasses and my lpr file). Once I figure out what to do I'm sure the provided documentation will be become clear. Lance -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 14/01/2008 5:39 PM _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
On 16/01/2008, Lance Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I'm baffled trying to convert my main application It compiles but won't link (so I don't have a big compiled EXE). I think I've screwed the environment/compiler etc. options somehow and I can't find helpful explanations for each choice. For example in the IDE I see all my 50+ units listed across the top of the screen but Control/F12 pops up only two entries (lclclasses and my lpr file). This is a separate issue. Please start a new thread for this. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Solution to the BIG compiled file issue!
What a pity for them. We can do nothing for them. If they don't make critism of lazarus, it does not matter. It is like not buying a new car because of the color. We can do a lot for them but not with this meaning. That follows the idea that a Target mecanism is needed. I agree it is a need, and it is not trivial for beginners (not normal user. Normal users read the documentation because you cannot play a game without knowing the rules. They already know how to use Delphi when they were a little baby ? ^^) and some modifications are necessary. As far I know this is planned for Lazarus =1.0, in order to make a consistent patch (Old thread - Should be confirmed by a Lazarus team member, I speak for myself here). Waiting for that, the provided documentation is really enough for any programmer and I would add : RTFM :) No normal user reads documentation! I build electronics since iam 16 and most people want to use and not read. And yes it is possible to build Intuitively programms. Delphi is an good example and its Success shows us that it is the right way. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
