Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[carlo von lynX]

I support Moritz' invitation anytime and would feel more
inclined to invest energy into libtech if it cuddles up
under his umbrella of related projects.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 01:43:06PM -0700, Yosem Companys wrote:
> > If it ain't broken, don't touch the thing. "Stick with mailman" is what

Actually, it is a bit broken.. the way it is cumbersome
to maintain civil interaction it happens to be yet another
mailing list and below the quality level of nettime, for
example.

> > Remind me what it is that Discourse offers that plain-text e-mail does not?

It offers plain-text e-mail AND the extras that may prove
useful like an easier way for non-tech people to produce
structured responses. When you need to cite from several
previous mails and respond to each, paragraphwise - with
e-mail you have to open several reply editors and cut &
paste pieces together. In discourse you mark the text
passage you care to comment to and it will ask you whether
you want to cite that. You can scroll up and pick the items
you need to reply to. That's why in political projects
it has become an instrument to get less techie people to
contribute elaborate discussion items - something not so
well solved by other forum packages.

>- https://www.discourse.org/features
>- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)

In https://structure.pages.de/convivenza the Italian Pirates
condensed five years of experience in uncivil interactions
and how to learn to make the civilized while keeping the
freedom of speech. We found that most software does not
exactly provide the functionality needed to manage flame
war prevention in a way that matches sociological insights.
Neither mailman nor discourse is ideal in that regard. The
idea that the community can moderate itself with social
scoring doesn't quite cut it.

What's good sociologically is the ability and right to
edit your own contributions at any time, allowing you to
reword things that may be misunderstood or perceived as
an attack against others.

Discourse can be a great win if talented people are
allowed to reorganize discussions for efficiency, moving
off-topic discussion into other threads, joining threads
that have actually been talking the same subject. I have
been doing this a lot and the result was that whenever
I wanted to reference a discussion on a certain topic,
I would easily find it in the search drop-down and
insert it in the ongoing discussion. This creates an
interweaved web of hypertext where adjacent discussions
point to each other, allowing people visiting the
archives years later to reconstruct the context and
maximize their absorption of knowledge. That's pretty
opposite to the fire-and-forget effects of mailing
lists and a great plus for rich text linkable forums.

What is frequently difficult for groups getting started
with Discourse is the structuring of categories, but
libtech has a pretty narrow focus so that shouldn't be a
problem.

Another neat detail: in the Italian Pirate Party we've
been offering also a Tor onion access to the platform
which works reasonably well.

In regards to the server placement discussion.. as long
as a server runs on intel and has a Cisco or Juniper
gatewaying it, I wouldn't call it secure. Still, we
wouldn't and can't expect the libtech discussion
platform to be safe from 5 eyes collection, so why
bother so hard? Our personal privacy doesn't belong
into libtech anyway. We hardly know each other and
we don't have a common political strategy that we
need to discuss behind closed doors.

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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[grarpamp]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Yosem Companys  wrote:
> Determine whether to maintain LT's mailing lists on Mailman or to transition
> them to a content management system (e.g., Discourse.org).

And whenever such centralized systems shutdown, move on,
deploy software again, crash, get bought, whatever, etc...
Unlike mailing lists there is no publicly distributed exports
of the database, no plaintext copies, nothing to import and
read offline, little deep indexing, browser dependencies, etc...
So all history, knowledge, and investment is lost forever.

With some of these wonders even something as simple
as searching for three letter words / acronyms doesn't
work at all.

Like Facebook, "forums" suck in general.

If you had one that read and wrote its plaintext
from / to list posts, that would be special.
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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Kate Krauss]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 5:10 PM, Doug Schuler <
doug...@publicsphereproject.org> wrote:

> Moritz' suggestions seem very sound.
>
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Moritz Bartl 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yosem,
>> On 14.06.2018 21:13, Yosem Companys wrote:
>> > Recently, the decision was made to spin off LT as an independent entity.
>>
>> Have you considered fiscal sponsorship instead, meaning to partner with
>> an existing non-profit instead of creating your own?
>>
>
​+1 for Moritz's idea of considering a fiscal sponsor (including possibly
his organization), after you all meet and really nail down your mission
statement, goals, how you are different from other organizations,​ how you
would like to see yourselves grow (including different kinds of diversity),
etc. Fiscal sponsors typically cost about 5% to 10% of the organization's
budget--but can remove many headaches. I've worked closely with fiscal
sponsors for a number of years and would be happy to talk more offline.

Cheers,

Kate Krauss
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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Doug Schuler]

Moritz' suggestions seem very sound.

The Public Sphere Project is a non-profit 501.c.3 organization that's very
aligned with the LT mission and would seem to be a good fit.

Other org's probably have better tech and deeper pockets however!

If I saw any changes I'd like to see the list expand its capabilities and
help function as a project incubator and sometime sustainer. This was one
of the roles that CPSR adopted — more or less subconsciously — and our
organization grew out of CPSR.

Thanks!

— Doug



On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Moritz Bartl 
wrote:

> Hi Yosem,
> On 14.06.2018 21:13, Yosem Companys wrote:
> > Recently, the decision was made to spin off LT as an independent entity.
>
> Have you considered fiscal sponsorship instead, meaning to partner with
> an existing non-profit instead of creating your own?
>
> I can for example see us at Renewable Freedom Foundation hosting this,
> both legally and technically. We have our own servers at various data
> centers, an endowment to ensure continued operation of the foundation,
> and existing legal infrastructure (registration in Germany, charity
> status for donations across Europe, readily set up accounting & audits
> etc.).
>
> It would save you from a lot of headaches and bureaucracy. There are
> other foundations I can connect you to if you're interested in exploring
> this route.
>
> Legally, the primary consideration should be wether you expect grants or
> donations, and where from. If you're dealing with US funders, it is the
> easiest for them to give money to 501c3's in the US; if you're dealing
> with donors from Europe, a European entity might be more useful.
> "Iceland" and "Switzerland" are mentioned quite often with little actual
> benefit (their privacy laws nowadays are similarly good or bad as
> elsewhere), and I would rather base the decision on where you have
> trusted contacts and someone who speaks the language.
>
> The separation of concerns via fiscal sponsorship can give you more
> flexibility, and more independence: I could see you partnering with a
> number of different entities, and regardless of their governance
> structures decide on your own governance model independently. If all you
> plan for the near future is some structure to host the mailing lists
> and/or forums, I suggest you reconsider creating yet another legal
> entity for this (yet).
>
> In terms of recommendations for hosters, you should base your decision
> on where you "place" the legal entity: The best protection you get is
> having the infrastructure in the same country as the legal entity, as it
> will not create potentially complex legal issues crossing borders. If
> you have narrowed down your choices, I can help pick hosting companies.
>
> It sounds like you may be interested in managed services, where you
> trust the hosting company to manage not only the connectivity but also
> the services itself (mailman and/or discourse). If you're considering
> the hosted Discourse at discourse.com, you will need to trust them with
> the data. I have not looked at their policies but usually these managed
> options do not take good care of reducing IP logging, for example. They
> are probably also using cloud storage, so the data sharing is even more
> extensive. By picking a US company you basically pin the jurisdiction,
> and you do not really want to be a foreign entity using US services like
> that, so that makes sense only if you're creating or partnering with a
> US entity. You can, however, find other, privacy-aware companies that
> offer managed mailman/discourse hosting in other jurisdictions without
> the "clouded" bit.
>
> Moritz
> --
> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable on Google. Violations
> of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/
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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Steven Clift]

Fyi - E-Democracy is also exploring how Discourse might be used YET still
fully function like a mailing list for all of our users. Let's trade notes.
We have the domain name opengroups.org.

Also in terms of fiscal agency, if someone out there would put up 100K
you'd have a lot more options. Or ideally, an existing org with resources
would see the virtue of adopting the list.

Steve

On Jun 15, 2018 2:39 PM, "Moritz Bartl"  wrote:

Hi Yosem,

On 14.06.2018 21:13, Yosem Companys wrote:
> Recently, the decision was made to spin off LT as an independent entity.

Have you considered fiscal sponsorship instead, meaning to partner with
an existing non-profit instead of creating your own?

I can for example see us at Renewable Freedom Foundation hosting this,
both legally and technically. We have our own servers at various data
centers, an endowment to ensure continued operation of the foundation,
and existing legal infrastructure (registration in Germany, charity
status for donations across Europe, readily set up accounting & audits
etc.).

It would save you from a lot of headaches and bureaucracy. There are
other foundations I can connect you to if you're interested in exploring
this route.

Legally, the primary consideration should be wether you expect grants or
donations, and where from. If you're dealing with US funders, it is the
easiest for them to give money to 501c3's in the US; if you're dealing
with donors from Europe, a European entity might be more useful.
"Iceland" and "Switzerland" are mentioned quite often with little actual
benefit (their privacy laws nowadays are similarly good or bad as
elsewhere), and I would rather base the decision on where you have
trusted contacts and someone who speaks the language.

The separation of concerns via fiscal sponsorship can give you more
flexibility, and more independence: I could see you partnering with a
number of different entities, and regardless of their governance
structures decide on your own governance model independently. If all you
plan for the near future is some structure to host the mailing lists
and/or forums, I suggest you reconsider creating yet another legal
entity for this (yet).

In terms of recommendations for hosters, you should base your decision
on where you "place" the legal entity: The best protection you get is
having the infrastructure in the same country as the legal entity, as it
will not create potentially complex legal issues crossing borders. If
you have narrowed down your choices, I can help pick hosting companies.

It sounds like you may be interested in managed services, where you
trust the hosting company to manage not only the connectivity but also
the services itself (mailman and/or discourse). If you're considering
the hosted Discourse at discourse.com, you will need to trust them with
the data. I have not looked at their policies but usually these managed
options do not take good care of reducing IP logging, for example. They
are probably also using cloud storage, so the data sharing is even more
extensive. By picking a US company you basically pin the jurisdiction,
and you do not really want to be a foreign entity using US services like
that, so that makes sense only if you're creating or partnering with a
US entity. You can, however, find other, privacy-aware companies that
offer managed mailman/discourse hosting in other jurisdictions without
the "clouded" bit.


Moritz

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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Moritz Bartl]

Hi Yosem,
On 14.06.2018 21:13, Yosem Companys wrote:
> Recently, the decision was made to spin off LT as an independent entity.

Have you considered fiscal sponsorship instead, meaning to partner with
an existing non-profit instead of creating your own?

I can for example see us at Renewable Freedom Foundation hosting this,
both legally and technically. We have our own servers at various data
centers, an endowment to ensure continued operation of the foundation,
and existing legal infrastructure (registration in Germany, charity
status for donations across Europe, readily set up accounting & audits
etc.).

It would save you from a lot of headaches and bureaucracy. There are
other foundations I can connect you to if you're interested in exploring
this route.

Legally, the primary consideration should be wether you expect grants or
donations, and where from. If you're dealing with US funders, it is the
easiest for them to give money to 501c3's in the US; if you're dealing
with donors from Europe, a European entity might be more useful.
"Iceland" and "Switzerland" are mentioned quite often with little actual
benefit (their privacy laws nowadays are similarly good or bad as
elsewhere), and I would rather base the decision on where you have
trusted contacts and someone who speaks the language.

The separation of concerns via fiscal sponsorship can give you more
flexibility, and more independence: I could see you partnering with a
number of different entities, and regardless of their governance
structures decide on your own governance model independently. If all you
plan for the near future is some structure to host the mailing lists
and/or forums, I suggest you reconsider creating yet another legal
entity for this (yet).

In terms of recommendations for hosters, you should base your decision
on where you "place" the legal entity: The best protection you get is
having the infrastructure in the same country as the legal entity, as it
will not create potentially complex legal issues crossing borders. If
you have narrowed down your choices, I can help pick hosting companies.

It sounds like you may be interested in managed services, where you
trust the hosting company to manage not only the connectivity but also
the services itself (mailman and/or discourse). If you're considering
the hosted Discourse at discourse.com, you will need to trust them with
the data. I have not looked at their policies but usually these managed
options do not take good care of reducing IP logging, for example. They
are probably also using cloud storage, so the data sharing is even more
extensive. By picking a US company you basically pin the jurisdiction,
and you do not really want to be a foreign entity using US services like
that, so that makes sense only if you're creating or partnering with a
US entity. You can, however, find other, privacy-aware companies that
offer managed mailman/discourse hosting in other jurisdictions without
the "clouded" bit.

Moritz
-- 
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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Tanja Aitamurto]

Happy to help in designing and developing the website, and also with the
other stuff the best I can
Thanks, all, for your continuous valuable work in the LT space
best,
Tanja Aitamurto, PhD
Postdoctoral Scholar
Management Science & Engineering
Stanford
www.tanjaaitamurto.com



On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 1:43 PM Yosem Companys  wrote:

> Ping me off line to chat about how I can help.
>>
>
> Will do, Thomas. Thanks for the offer.
>
>
>> >- Determine whether to maintain LT's mailing lists on Mailman
>> > or to
>> >transition them to a content management system (e.g., Discourse.org).
>>
>> If it ain't broken, don't touch the thing. "Stick with mailman" is what
>> gets my vote. I don't want yet-another-site-to-log-into to read LT
>> discussions. I want LT right here in my mailbox.
>> It's low barrier and facilitates interaction, as opposed to some CMS
>> that now I have to go and log into and then figure out what's
>> interesting or not, and what I may want to read or reply to... I'm never
>> going to do that...(*)
>> E-mail is right there in my inbox: I have my own copy, I can do with it
>> what I want, I don't have to log into some other place, it fits nicely
>> in my existing workflows... and mailman is kind enough to give me a
>> searchable archive. Now, whether we stick with Stanford's mailman or
>> not, /that/ I don't care too much about, I care that it's not locked up
>> behind some other system I now have to have an account with... I care
>> that it stays an e-mail list.
>>
>> Regardless of whatever CMS we pick, if we were to go that route, there's
>> always going to be some problem with it where we want to do X or Y and
>> we can't quite do it. With e-mail, everyone can pick the client they
>> like: (al)pine, mutt, Thunderbird, outlook (if you're so included) or
>> gmail (yuk). Everyone gets to pick the tool they like best, instead of
>> everyone being forced to use system X or Y and being strapped into the
>> harness of how that tool thinks you ought to interact with its world.
>>
>> I think that part of the value of the LT mailman service is that is
>> specifically is NOT an Internet forum and that it specifically is an
>> e-mail list, which facilitates conversations where the focus is on
>> content and ideas. If I want a forum, I'll go to reddit or some similar
>> site. (Speaking of which, https://www.reddit.com/r/liberationtech
>> apparently has been banned? Is this this same LibTech?)
>>
>> Remind me what it is that Discourse offers that plain-text e-mail does
>> not?
>>
>> (*) I don't mean this as a threat, at all (after all, I have nothing to
>> threaten you with), but if you're putting LT behind some other
>> wall/gate, I know myself well enough to be able to tell you with high
>> confidence that you'll lose me from LT... and I think a couple of others
>> as well...
>>
>
> Those on the list who suggested Discourse.com did it so we could have more
> functionality than just mass emailing. Here are Discourse.com's key
> capabilities:
>
>- https://www.discourse.org/features
>- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)
>
> In any case, it appears that Discourse.com allows you to have their
> platform while maintaining the Mailman mailing lists. Of course, we could
> do that anyway to make sure everyone is happy.
>
> Independent of whether we use Discourse.com, list migration to a new
> domain is pretty simple. All that would change is the domain name. Other
> than that, list subscribers would likely not even notice that we've
> migrated.
> --
> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable on Google. Violations
> of list guidelines will get you moderated:
> https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech.
> Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing the moderator
> at zakwh...@stanford.edu.
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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Yosem Companys]

>
> Ping me off line to chat about how I can help.
>

Will do, Thomas. Thanks for the offer.


> >- Determine whether to maintain LT's mailing lists on Mailman
> > or to
> >transition them to a content management system (e.g., Discourse.org).
>
> If it ain't broken, don't touch the thing. "Stick with mailman" is what
> gets my vote. I don't want yet-another-site-to-log-into to read LT
> discussions. I want LT right here in my mailbox.
> It's low barrier and facilitates interaction, as opposed to some CMS
> that now I have to go and log into and then figure out what's
> interesting or not, and what I may want to read or reply to... I'm never
> going to do that...(*)
> E-mail is right there in my inbox: I have my own copy, I can do with it
> what I want, I don't have to log into some other place, it fits nicely
> in my existing workflows... and mailman is kind enough to give me a
> searchable archive. Now, whether we stick with Stanford's mailman or
> not, /that/ I don't care too much about, I care that it's not locked up
> behind some other system I now have to have an account with... I care
> that it stays an e-mail list.
>
> Regardless of whatever CMS we pick, if we were to go that route, there's
> always going to be some problem with it where we want to do X or Y and
> we can't quite do it. With e-mail, everyone can pick the client they
> like: (al)pine, mutt, Thunderbird, outlook (if you're so included) or
> gmail (yuk). Everyone gets to pick the tool they like best, instead of
> everyone being forced to use system X or Y and being strapped into the
> harness of how that tool thinks you ought to interact with its world.
>
> I think that part of the value of the LT mailman service is that is
> specifically is NOT an Internet forum and that it specifically is an
> e-mail list, which facilitates conversations where the focus is on
> content and ideas. If I want a forum, I'll go to reddit or some similar
> site. (Speaking of which, https://www.reddit.com/r/liberationtech
> apparently has been banned? Is this this same LibTech?)
>
> Remind me what it is that Discourse offers that plain-text e-mail does not?
>
> (*) I don't mean this as a threat, at all (after all, I have nothing to
> threaten you with), but if you're putting LT behind some other
> wall/gate, I know myself well enough to be able to tell you with high
> confidence that you'll lose me from LT... and I think a couple of others
> as well...
>

Those on the list who suggested Discourse.com did it so we could have more
functionality than just mass emailing. Here are Discourse.com's key
capabilities:

   - https://www.discourse.org/features
   - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)

In any case, it appears that Discourse.com allows you to have their
platform while maintaining the Mailman mailing lists. Of course, we could
do that anyway to make sure everyone is happy.

Independent of whether we use Discourse.com, list migration to a new domain
is pretty simple. All that would change is the domain name. Other than
that, list subscribers would likely not even notice that we've migrated.
-- 
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable on Google. Violations of 
list guidelines will get you moderated: 
https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, 
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Re: [liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Thomas Delrue]

On 06/14/2018 03:13 PM, Yosem Companys wrote:
> Here are LT's major needs:
> 
>- Recruit people to develop a new website, logo, and graphics.

Ping me off line to chat about how I can help.

>- Identify a legal jurisdiction with strong security and privacy laws
>and regulations and a server provider with a stellar reputation at
>protecting user security and privacy to host the site.

Iceland?

>- Determine whether to maintain LT's mailing lists on Mailman
> or to
>transition them to a content management system (e.g., Discourse.org).

If it ain't broken, don't touch the thing. "Stick with mailman" is what
gets my vote. I don't want yet-another-site-to-log-into to read LT
discussions. I want LT right here in my mailbox.
It's low barrier and facilitates interaction, as opposed to some CMS
that now I have to go and log into and then figure out what's
interesting or not, and what I may want to read or reply to... I'm never
going to do that...(*)
E-mail is right there in my inbox: I have my own copy, I can do with it
what I want, I don't have to log into some other place, it fits nicely
in my existing workflows... and mailman is kind enough to give me a
searchable archive. Now, whether we stick with Stanford's mailman or
not, /that/ I don't care too much about, I care that it's not locked up
behind some other system I now have to have an account with... I care
that it stays an e-mail list.

Regardless of whatever CMS we pick, if we were to go that route, there's
always going to be some problem with it where we want to do X or Y and
we can't quite do it. With e-mail, everyone can pick the client they
like: (al)pine, mutt, Thunderbird, outlook (if you're so included) or
gmail (yuk). Everyone gets to pick the tool they like best, instead of
everyone being forced to use system X or Y and being strapped into the
harness of how that tool thinks you ought to interact with its world.

I think that part of the value of the LT mailman service is that is
specifically is NOT an Internet forum and that it specifically is an
e-mail list, which facilitates conversations where the focus is on
content and ideas. If I want a forum, I'll go to reddit or some similar
site. (Speaking of which, https://www.reddit.com/r/liberationtech
apparently has been banned? Is this this same LibTech?)

Remind me what it is that Discourse offers that plain-text e-mail does not?

>- Assess the best legal structure for LT (e.g., digital cooperative).

Outside of my field of expertise...


(*) I don't mean this as a threat, at all (after all, I have nothing to
threaten you with), but if you're putting LT behind some other
wall/gate, I know myself well enough to be able to tell you with high
confidence that you'll lose me from LT... and I think a couple of others
as well...

-- 
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[liberationtech] Stanford Liberationtech Needs Your Help

[Yosem Companys]

Hi All,

The Program on Liberation Technologies at Stanford University (LT)
 has been going strong since circa
2006. Since then, LT has helped thousands design, use, and research
technologies that foster the public good.

Recently, the decision was made to spin off LT as an independent entity.
I'm one of the people tasked with doing so. Here are LT's major needs:

   - Recruit people to develop a new website, logo, and graphics.
   - Identify a legal jurisdiction with strong security and privacy laws
   and regulations and a server provider with a stellar reputation at
   protecting user security and privacy to host the site.
   - Determine whether to maintain LT's mailing lists on Mailman
    or to
   transition them to a content management system (e.g., Discourse.org).
   - Assess the best legal structure for LT (e.g., digital cooperative).

Any ideas? Thanks for your help and advice.

Best,
Yosem

P.S. I'm sending this email on behalf LT's co-founders and not Stanford
University.
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