Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 02:15:15AM +0200, André Rebentisch wrote: Dear all, do you follow the news? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/berlin-washington-cold-war http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/eu-confronts-us-over-alleged-spying-on-european-allies/article12899295/ http://www.dw.de/us-to-respond-to-nsa-spying-allegations/a-16916869 It is huge and a strong burden on transatlantic relations, a game Do you really think that such large scale intercepts are possible without full knowledge and cooperation of key people in politics and industry? Lack of surprise to such revelations is quite telling. Lack of coverage in state sponsored media also tells you something. Lack of interest in the general population tells you that they're getting away with it. changing incident. We will get a completely different Brussels environment for related topics. You are kidding yourself. If you want to change things, invest into end to end encryption and end system hardening. Cypherpunks write code. Not laws. -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
..on Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 02:26:11PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: On Mon, Jul 01, 2013 at 02:15:15AM +0200, André Rebentisch wrote: Dear all, do you follow the news? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/berlin-washington-cold-war http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/eu-confronts-us-over-alleged-spying-on-european-allies/article12899295/ http://www.dw.de/us-to-respond-to-nsa-spying-allegations/a-16916869 It is huge and a strong burden on transatlantic relations, a game Do you really think that such large scale intercepts are possible without full knowledge and cooperation of key people in politics and industry? Lack of surprise to such revelations is quite telling. Lack of coverage in state sponsored media also tells you something. Lack of interest in the general population tells you that they're getting away with it. changing incident. We will get a completely different Brussels environment for related topics. You are kidding yourself. If you want to change things, invest into end to end encryption and end system hardening. Cypherpunks write code. Not laws. Hear here. -- Julian Oliver http://julianoliver.com http://criticalengineering.org -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 de-lurking On 07/01/2013 03:44 PM, taxakis wrote: Of course not, Eugen! They all know it. But now there's proof. Tangible documents stamped Top Secret. And there's a witness, Snowden, who plainly details it in front of a TV camera. And in a fairly articulate way. And then, they see the US administration going on tilt due to that. Mr. Kerry and others want Snowden's blood. Even threatening other nations, Russia, Ecuador. Before that it was all hearsay. Some politicians for a long time only licked on the edges of the Tony Bunyan report telling the world about Echelon. It was all illusive, probably true, but then still illusive; no real meat for politicians. Now they know for sure that it's true beyond their wildest imagination. And now they're all sharpening the knives. I actually see very little knife sharpening. Happy that the son-of-ACTA is in the freezer for a bit but that does nothing for the privacy of half a billion Europeans. Given that the EU policy apparatus already had a good set of policy ideas in july 2001 (see my article http://consortiumnews.com/2013/06/19/how-to-thwart-internet-spying/) it is rather curious that not a single MEP or EU commisioner has proposed any of them (on or off the record - I've been mailing with several of them over the last week). As one of the many people who have spent over a decade talking to government officials, elected representatives and the occasional minister about this stuff the response so far is one of deafening silence. None of the angy foot-stamping does anything. Moving European information systems out of the US sphere of influence would do something. Have European data only on European soil. Running on systems not owned in any way by US companies. Use only FOSS for antyhing more serious than the membership administration of the local tennisclub. Instruct all citizens on the use of FOSS as part of the mandatory national educational programs. Promote preinstalled FOSS on client systems for sale to consumers. Educate all citizens on basic infosec concepts, behaviours and tools for free. Invest in better FOSS tools and apps. Ban the manadatory use of things like Gmail, Windows, Facebook in government funded educational systems. Ban US companies from touching European medical data-processing systems. etc etc ect... None of the above is anything that has not been said and written by many advocates over the last 20 years orso. The only question is, will European governments actually *do* something this time? This case is a great litmus test for where European governments are. Will they keep 'talking' with a government that has shown utter disrespect for the most basic rights of 95.5% humans on this planet? Or will they do the only job that justifies their existence: take immediate and concrete steps toward protecting the rights of *their* citizens. In the coming months governments or individual European nations can show themselves to be democratic governments or US vassals. Predicted vassals: - - The UK - - Ireland - - Denmark - - Sweden - - The Netherlands Somewhat functioning governments (YMMV): - - Norway - - Germany - - France - - Spain - - Portugal - - Chech republic (?) - - Iceland (?) - -- Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards, Arjen Kamphuis Gendo B.V. Main: +31 20 891 0330 mail: ar...@gendo.ch gendo.ch(website) gendo.nl/blog/arjen (Dutch blog) gendo.ch/en/blog/arjen (English blog) about.me/arjenkamphuis (social media) files.gendo.nl/keys/Arjen_Kamphuis_Gendo.asc (public key) PGP fingerprint: 55FB B3B7 949D ABF5 F31B BA1D 237D 4C50 118A 0EC2 Gendo BV Wibautstraat 150, 1091 GR Amsterdam The Netherlands P please consider the environment before printing this email This e-mail message and its attachments are subject to the disclaimer published at the following website of Gendo: http://www.gendo.nl/disclaimer Gendo B.V. is registered with the trade register in The Netherlands under number 28116864. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJR0Z6UAAoJECN9TFARig7CGY8P/jFM+Zm/wnLrikGCNpiK1f4K okcLfD54U36q9jxgf1/Y1UvpTaqr3fnj4/pAeZyB31nUtH6IrVvttF1OzVyKSVIn JYZC9LJsQQgP7nWaeJZkaeBmUn1NRPyNiSPn/ezQnbEeAvxeAj7eE4nA0Crc2vRX hmSql2GFOtcCarormryNajoKCFSfI14jUohpfHZtOUmb3Uv57JYgYLGsej7eiLgE mj9F6BFta4u6aLUeCzc8xq25ZzYxU0JuPWBn56vzM9cjOiROvY9H2U77/C/yVkih JLlgmlHwwT2P1/LtsiqU55UWs538tXRmBgNigPmO1UOTDUhvjjfEAcSgKGML3w/H sEAlClA9D6StfKYrBmk99ysoljo0YEgo6HP7Aefkds4/gjcLzFJVzFM+gOLjpyrY cEsUJXanFEFpfvDZQiqLk8Wv3cXrmBNvGkpwlCfbE33gmGMNV0+ATu3jUCP44EdE /3Tzk0aAQUSaXv7Mn9qY+eAyLJZjNWGLKkELTF8UAVdp3HX0Gt3nR5Ph36CWCS8Y JE1LvLCf7/trUoeg8HZVrBzryiYZ1BAf/LWQjY48bPIU9j3xiJ++8u2CaTGofRiY HNhrHy9GP3UKEF+bk6KW+lsl+FPNDT4CuIoX+mpoC0kG/Iu/IeV6iMgdKcXq82si +bQFFbc1aURsAk5GwpR/ =+TUK -END PGP SIGNATURE- --
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
You're right of course: it was a facile reply of mine, particularly on here. It's how we respond that matters. On 30 Jun 2013, at 04:10, Jacob Appelbaum ja...@appelbaum.net wrote: Paul Bernal (LAW): None of this should be surprising, should it? It's a reasonable assumption that all intelligence agencies share their data on a pretty regular basis - certainly with 'friendly' nations, and almost certainly with others, on a quid pro quo basis. It's always been that way. Hi, Whenever I see this kind of response I wonder, is it a surprise that people are robbed? Or that wars kill innocent people? Is it a surprise that our governments spy on us? Is it a surprise that people are sexually assaulted? It is a surprise that computers get hacked? That bankers who pillage walk free? I wonder though - do such people who may or may not be surprised - do they have any other thoughts? Would you tell a victim of the Stasi - I'm not surprised you were harassed! or would you tell a friend who was beaten for being gay I'm not surprised you were beaten up! Is there a thought that comes after that lack of surprise? One wonders if some cynical feelings might smother all other thinking. What comes after surprise? Do you - for example - think it is wrong? Do you - for example - want it to be this way? All the best, Jacob -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn The Gulag Archipelago, 1918-1956: An Experiment in Literary Investigation, books V-VII On 6/29/13 11:09 PM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote: Paul Bernal (LAW): None of this should be surprising, should it? It's a reasonable assumption that all intelligence agencies share their data on a pretty regular basis - certainly with 'friendly' nations, and almost certainly with others, on a quid pro quo basis. It's always been that way. Hi, Whenever I see this kind of response I wonder, is it a surprise that people are robbed? Or that wars kill innocent people? Is it a surprise that our governments spy on us? Is it a surprise that people are sexually assaulted? It is a surprise that computers get hacked? That bankers who pillage walk free? I wonder though - do such people who may or may not be surprised - do they have any other thoughts? Would you tell a victim of the Stasi - I'm not surprised you were harassed! or would you tell a friend who was beaten for being gay I'm not surprised you were beaten up! Is there a thought that comes after that lack of surprise? One wonders if some cynical feelings might smother all other thinking. What comes after surprise? Do you - for example - think it is wrong? Do you - for example - want it to be this way? All the best, Jacob -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
Dear all, do you follow the news? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/berlin-washington-cold-war http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/eu-confronts-us-over-alleged-spying-on-european-allies/article12899295/ http://www.dw.de/us-to-respond-to-nsa-spying-allegations/a-16916869 It is huge and a strong burden on transatlantic relations, a game changing incident. We will get a completely different Brussels environment for related topics. Best, André -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
None of this should be surprising, should it? It's a reasonable assumption that all intelligence agencies share their data on a pretty regular basis - certainly with 'friendly' nations, and almost certainly with others, on a quid pro quo basis. It's always been that way. On 29 Jun 2013, at 21:42, Jurre andmore drw...@gmail.com wrote: There was a hearing last week in Dutch parliament about PRISM. There was another interesting point being discussed a rumor that the TAT-14 cable in Katwijk was being eavesdropped. Not only is it eavesdropped, but data is shared with the US! Article below: Revealed: secret European deals to hand over private data to America Germany 'among countries offering intelligence' according to new claims by former US defence analyst At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have been colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal communications data, according to a former contractor to America's National Security Agency, who said the public should not be kept in the dark. Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for theNSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US. Madsen said the countries had formal second and third party status under signal intelligence (Sigint) agreements that compels them to hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to the NSA if requested. Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by declassified documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have third party relationships. In an interview published last night on the PrivacySurgeon.org blog, Madsen, who has been attacked for holding controversial views on espionage issues, said he had decided to speak out after becoming concerned about the half story told by EU politicians regarding the extent of the NSA's activities in Europe. He said that under the agreements, which were drawn up after the second world war, the NSA gets the lion's share of the Sigint take. In return, the third parties to the NSA agreements received highly sanitised intelligence. Madsen said he was alarmed at the sanctimonious outcry of political leaders who were feigning shock about the spying operations while staying silent about their own arrangements with the US, and was particularly concerned that senior German politicians had accused the UK of spying when their country had a similar third party deal with the NSA. Although the level of co-operation provided by other European countries to the NSA is not on the same scale as that provided by the UK, the allegations are potentially embarrassing. I can't understand how Angela Merkel can keep a straight face, demanding assurances from Obama and the UK while Germany has entered into those exact relationships, Madsen said. The Liberal Democrat MEP Baroness Ludford, a senior member of the European parliament's civil liberties, justice and home affairs committee, said Madsen's allegations confirmed that the entire system for monitoring data interception was a mess, because the EU was unable to intervene in intelligence matters that remained the exclusive concern of national governments. The intelligence agencies are exploiting these contradictions and no one is really holding them to account, Ludford said. It's terribly undermining to liberal democracy. Madsen's disclosures have prompted calls for European governments to come clean on their arrangements with the NSA. There needs to be transparency as to whether or not it is legal for the US or any other security service to interrogate private material, said John Cooper QC, a leading international human rights lawyer. The problem here is that none of these arrangements has been debated in any democratic arena. I agree with William Hague that sometimes things have to be done in secret, but you don't break the law in secret. Madsen said all seven European countries and the US have access to the Tat 14 fibre-optic cable network running between Denmark and Germany, the Netherlands, France, the UK and the US, allowing them to intercept vast amounts of data, including phone calls, emails and records of users' access to websites. He said the public needed to be made aware of the full scale of the communication-sharing arrangements between European countries and the US, which pre-date the internet and became of strategic importance during the cold war. The covert relationship between the countries was first outlined in a 2001 report by the European parliament, but their explicit connection with the NSA was not publicised until Madsen decided to speak out last night.
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
It was an Observer article, which shares a website with the Guardian despite separate staff and editorial. It was also heavily dependent on Wayne Madsen as a source, and he is a crackpot. Guardian removed the article when they discovered what happened. Check Glenn Greenwald's timeline on Twitter for many explanations of that series of events. Parker Jurre andmore drw...@gmail.com wrote: Oddness all over the place, it seems the story has been pulled by the Guardian. Anyone who knows more? 2013/6/29 Paul Bernal (LAW) paul.ber...@uea.ac.uk: None of this should be surprising, should it? It's a reasonable assumption that all intelligence agencies share their data on a pretty regular basis - certainly with 'friendly' nations, and almost certainly with others, on a quid pro quo basis. It's always been that way. On 29 Jun 2013, at 21:42, Jurre andmore drw...@gmail.com wrote: There was a hearing last week in Dutch parliament about PRISM. There was another interesting point being discussed a rumor that the TAT-14 cable in Katwijk was being eavesdropped. Not only is it eavesdropped, but data is shared with the US! Article below: Revealed: secret European deals to hand over private data to America Germany 'among countries offering intelligence' according to new claims by former US defence analyst At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have been colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal communications data, according to a former contractor to America's National Security Agency, who said the public should not be kept in the dark. Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for theNSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US. Madsen said the countries had formal second and third party status under signal intelligence (Sigint) agreements that compels them to hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to the NSA if requested. Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by declassified documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have third party relationships. In an interview published last night on the PrivacySurgeon.org blog, Madsen, who has been attacked for holding controversial views on espionage issues, said he had decided to speak out after becoming concerned about the half story told by EU politicians regarding the extent of the NSA's activities in Europe. He said that under the agreements, which were drawn up after the second world war, the NSA gets the lion's share of the Sigint take. In return, the third parties to the NSA agreements received highly sanitised intelligence. Madsen said he was alarmed at the sanctimonious outcry of political leaders who were feigning shock about the spying operations while staying silent about their own arrangements with the US, and was particularly concerned that senior German politicians had accused the UK of spying when their country had a similar third party deal with the NSA. Although the level of co-operation provided by other European countries to the NSA is not on the same scale as that provided by the UK, the allegations are potentially embarrassing. I can't understand how Angela Merkel can keep a straight face, demanding assurances from Obama and the UK while Germany has entered into those exact relationships, Madsen said. The Liberal Democrat MEP Baroness Ludford, a senior member of the European parliament's civil liberties, justice and home affairs committee, said Madsen's allegations confirmed that the entire system for monitoring data interception was a mess, because the EU was unable to intervene in intelligence matters that remained the exclusive concern of national governments. The intelligence agencies are exploiting these contradictions and no one is really holding them to account, Ludford said. It's terribly undermining to liberal democracy. Madsen's disclosures have prompted calls for European governments to come clean on their arrangements with the NSA. There needs to be transparency as to whether or not it is legal for the US or any other security service to interrogate private material, said John Cooper QC, a leading international human rights lawyer. The problem here is that none of these arrangements has been debated in any democratic arena. I agree with William Hague that sometimes things have to be done in secret, but you don't break the law in secret. Madsen said all seven European countries and the US have access to the Tat 14 fibre-optic cable network running between Denmark and Germany, the Netherlands, France, the UK and the US, allowing them to intercept vast amounts of
Re: [liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America
Paul Bernal (LAW): None of this should be surprising, should it? It's a reasonable assumption that all intelligence agencies share their data on a pretty regular basis - certainly with 'friendly' nations, and almost certainly with others, on a quid pro quo basis. It's always been that way. Hi, Whenever I see this kind of response I wonder, is it a surprise that people are robbed? Or that wars kill innocent people? Is it a surprise that our governments spy on us? Is it a surprise that people are sexually assaulted? It is a surprise that computers get hacked? That bankers who pillage walk free? I wonder though - do such people who may or may not be surprised - do they have any other thoughts? Would you tell a victim of the Stasi - I'm not surprised you were harassed! or would you tell a friend who was beaten for being gay I'm not surprised you were beaten up! Is there a thought that comes after that lack of surprise? One wonders if some cynical feelings might smother all other thinking. What comes after surprise? Do you - for example - think it is wrong? Do you - for example - want it to be this way? All the best, Jacob -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
