Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: (Oh, and Gabor, is my guess even correct? Do you have any D-state processes?) sorry for not responding earlier but only now I could check it on that machine and it seems to be the right answer I have now 2 processes in the D state and 3-4 in the DN state (man sais N=low priority) all DNs are updatedb processes. So if I understand correctly this is not a real problem with the machine, only the reporting is strange. Now why does the machine not responding sometimes ? I guess at this point I have to go back to man ps. Thanks for the help ! Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On 2003-01-13 Gabor Szabo wrote: Now why does the machine not responding sometimes ? I guess at this point I have to go back to man ps. Since NFS was mentioned in this thread, and since I can only guess, I will say that I once experienced delays when typing commands into my shell, and it turned out it was because my PATH contained a directory that was on a (not responding) NFS. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:55:10 +0200 (IST) Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The programs provided the API that was originally needed: |lpr Evgeny does have a point in that some applications need a lot more control than just submitting a job (e.g: display a list of printers, listing the characteristics of specific printer [paper type, etc.], locating the closest priner [LOC comes to mind...]) non of this type of config is easily accessible from the conventional print spoolers. Also: xml still doesn't allow me to easily: *font: fixed In this example it does. The correct way to implement this in XML is via an XPath/XQuery expression [which should be against the available fonts]. I completely agree though that syntactically the XML et-al are far worse than the elegant XResources syntax. This is because XML assumes a tree structure, and this wildcar below applies toall leaves wirt the name font. So you see: a tree schema doesn't always work... Agreed (although the previous example didn't demonstrated it). And I still don't l;ike the current gconf: it requires an extra daemon Worse! IIRC it's an extra daemon *per user* Also, replying to Evgeny: Having a standard and powerfull config mechanism is a GoodThing(tm) However, some config files in Unix/Linux are actually code (e.g: shell scripts, .emacs) which obviousely are more general than any config scheme you may come with. If the proposed config mechanism is very general, it would bloat simple applications and their authors (justfully) won't use it. I do accept your observation, that in *many cases* there was no good reason to invent yet another poorly engineered config mechanism. I would suggest though, that a more realistic goal should be to *minimize* the number of different config types. For example: - A linear key=value pairs (e.g: INI files) - Hierarchic config (e.g: static XML) - Dynamic config (e.g: Registry/gconf) - Inherited config (e.g: environment variables) - where do I fit Xresources? - ... others So we may try to converge to some best-of-breed API in each category. Some categories may even need alternative selection due do special constraints: - On small footprint systems you trade flexibility for footprint. - Some maintenance modes (e.g: single user) may force you to manual config, so you cannot depend on running config deamons (gconf, *SQL, etc.) So you may want both full-blown API and a minimal-API for the same category (similar to glibc and dietlibc). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Code Red, Blue or Green there all a symptom of a far more pervasive and insidious virus, it costs around $200. -anonymous = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
On 2003-01-13 Christoph Bugel wrote: On 2003-01-13 Gabor Szabo wrote: Now why does the machine not responding sometimes ? I guess at this point I have to go back to man ps. Since NFS was mentioned in this thread, and since I can only guess, I will say that I once experienced delays when typing commands into my shell, and it turned out it was because my PATH contained a directory that was on a (not responding) NFS. and or my LD_LIBRARY_PATH. etc, etc. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 99.6% idle 5.16 load
Gabor Szabo wrote: On Sun, 12 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: (Oh, and Gabor, is my guess even correct? Do you have any D-state processes?) sorry for not responding earlier but only now I could check it on that machine and it seems to be the right answer I have now 2 processes in the D state and 3-4 in the DN state (man sais N=low priority) all DNs are updatedb processes. So if I understand correctly this is not a real problem with the machine, only the reporting is strange. No. There is a problem. Updatedb, which updates the slocate dababase, is getting stuck somewhere (maybe a circular symbolic link or some other file system anomaly). So it runs, gets stuck, then runs again... and again it gets stuck, until after a couple of days it brings your machine to its knees. Kill the updatedb processes and try to run it with the -v flag to see why it's getting stuck. Hope this helps, Henry = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Error using hebrew in AbiWord.
Hello all while trying to change language to hebrew in AbiWord i got this: could not load the directory for the he-IL language. any hints about Stots This e-mail message has been sent by Elbit Systems Ltd. and is for the use of the intended recipients only. The message may contain privileged or confidential information . If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any use, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited, and you are requested to delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify the sender immediately. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Yet another long post] Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Quoting Oleg Goldshmidt, from the post of Sun, 12 Jan: I am glad if it is. It is not so clear to me though, because, if you re-read the thread, there are voices that suggest a Stallmanist line as an official policy of Hamakor. All I did was saying that in my opinion it is narrow, divisive, and shouldn't happen. If it does, I'll have to consider what I should do. Does Hamakor have a problem with this? like you say, it's AN official, not THE official. also, we are not talking policies here, we are talking about principals. Hamakor WILL promote the principals of freedom, as well as those of open source and open standards. what's the difference between ideology/principals and actual religious zealousness? there is quite a difference. for one thing, a zealot would force his opinions and boycott opposers. I'm not religious about it, but I do support the principals. I use GNU for the freedom it gives me but I don't let it stop me from buying from Amazon or using Qmail. promoting is one thing (pro) and objecting is another (con). Stallman has a lot of pro principals that I admire, a few con principals which I think are important, and a few con principals I find rediculously extreme. in my private life I try to implement the first two. for Hamakor I'd only like to adopt the pro principals, but you said that even those are abusive and should not be in the official list of goals. well, too late, read the takanon. Talk to me - what bothers you about Hamakor? The possibility that it will adopt Stallman's POV and start pointing fingers at, boycotting, and whatnot those (members or others) who are deemed traitors to freedom. I feel uneasy helping Sun or Microsoft with opensource projects, because their motives are not pure at best, but if the opportunity arrises and Hamakor finds itself cooperating with them, I'll give them my blessing if it does not betray the goals as are in the Takanon and keep the spirit of either Open Source or Free :) frame that and come sue me if I act otherwise in the future :) resembling ideology here. Of course, you can always say that trying to avoid ideology is also an ideology... not to mention that technology should advance and the human race should be encouraged to achieve more, and one should advence science. Those are ideals that may not be your bag, and indeed I agree don't have a single interpretation or are global. When does an argument stop becoming practical and starts becoming ideological? When you start branding Linus a traitor because he chooses BitKeeper as his revision control system because BitKeeper is not free. The no, that's when ideology becomes religious zealotry, and I'm against that. I've had it up to here with Kfia Datit in this country, I don't want such issues to leak into my hobbies and work. the fact I believe in non-kosher does not mean I boycot kosher restaurants (try and find a falafel without a kosher sign!) because it means I'm paying a procent to the local rabanut (though I know people who do), but I will choose to boycot McDonalds on technical reasons (does insisting on minimally-processed food count as a religion or a healthy sense of self preservation? that's a different argument). for Stallman, Freedom is as basic as self preservation. Fine. I don't mind living in a world where there is proprietary standards and software in case there is enough Freedom to balance it and keep it at bay, and as long as it doesn't touch my personal well being. depth here. Although it seems significant to me that even a self-professed Stallmanist like Ira uses qmail, apparently choosing technical reasons over pure ideology. I'm an idealist maybe, but not a zealot. maybe saying I'm a stallmanist is too extreme, so keep my definition above - I try to follow similar lines to promote freedom. I don't take his extreme views about boycotting certain companies or products altogether. it occurred to me that if I stand up and say that I disagree it will look like I am against some basic, universal values that everybody should share, because that's how things are presented. And then I well, I agree thaqt the ideal of freedom is not global, and where it is an ideal it is not the same concept always. you DO agree that you enjoy the freedom of seeing, changing and getting the code for free, but you are not happy with the fact I want to fight for your right to do so? I would never force anyone to free their source, but I would certainly try to persuade them or prefer to work with someone else if it makes no difference for me. I WILL do my best to force service providers I have NO OPTION but to work with to change their way, i.e. the government, the banks and the health services. I will do all in my power to make them use Open standards because it concenrns my health and pocket and well being. I will not FORCE or BOYCOT or do anything AGAINST a vendor or service provider I have a choice in (i.e. Microsoft. I have good competing options for
Re: Error using hebrew in AbiWord.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all while trying to change language to hebrew in AbiWord i got this: could not load the directory for the he-IL language. any hints about One FM: http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/Hebrew/Lecture/node31.html -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
article on ynet
Ynet is running an interesting article, a translation of a PC-Magazine article about Linux vs. Windows vs. Mac. But not the typical comparison - in this article Dvorak is complaining the Linux [1] software developers are getting caught in a loop emulating Microsoft, including all their mistakes, and in the process developing an OS (and he's talking about the GUI, of course, not the kernel itself) that will never be better, only cheaper than Microsoft's OS. Worth reading. http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2362034,00.html [1] Here's an example where one should *not* use the phrase GNU/Linux - GNU had nothing to do with the Dvorak's complaint :) -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jan 13 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |[I'm] so full of action, my name should http://nadav.harel.org.il |be a verb -- Big Daddy Kane (Raw, 1987) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configurationfiles as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
I agree that this is a good and worthwhile idea. May I suggest that we start defining an API and a standard configuration library, and start encouraging application writers to migrate to the new library? Design notes: 1. The library should be licensed under LGPL, because we want it to infect also non-free software projects. 2. The implementation should provide for a way to call back the application's legacy configuration mechanism, as another option (in addition to configuration files, configuration daemon, etc.). It is up ot the application maintainer to interface between the legacy configuration mechanism and the library's, but we'll try to make it as painless as possible for him. This will make it easier for distributions to migrate to the new configuration scheme. A thought for a design for the new configuration mechanism (for systems which can afford the big footprint): - Environment variable setting the global configuration mechanism (file or daemon). - The global configuration mechanism shall specify, for each application, the application's configuration mechanism to be used. Thus, some applications will be configured from files. Others will be configured from associated configuration daemons. - The mechanism shall provide for configurability in the package level (for example, some configuration options will apply to all X-Window applications; others will apply to all Gnome applications, etc.) together with overridability for individual applications. I wonder whether the following paradigm will be powerful enough to cover all cases: An application will treat configuration information as an hash (associative array). With each key (an arbitrary string), one could associate one of the following: - scalar integer/real/Boolean/string value - array of values having the same type - another associative array The other complications (such as allowing applications to share configuration data) shall be taken care of by designing appropriate conventions for the key strings. To access a configuration option, the following API is needed: - retrieve_config_value(const char *key); to be overloaded with the possible types of values. - set_config_value(const char *key, void* value); to be overloaded, too. Some mechanism is needed to handle tree-structured configurations (where the value of a configuration value can be another associative array). - register_config_change_callback(const char *key, func callback); [where func has been typedef'ed to be a suitable function pointer] This will register a callback into the application, to be called each time anyone from the outside will change the registered configuration option. On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Oron Peled wrote: I do accept your observation, that in *many cases* there was no good reason to invent yet another poorly engineered config mechanism. I would suggest though, that a more realistic goal should be to *minimize* the number of different config types. For example: - A linear key=value pairs (e.g: INI files) - Hierarchic config (e.g: static XML) - Dynamic config (e.g: Registry/gconf) - Inherited config (e.g: environment variables) - where do I fit Xresources? - ... others So we may try to converge to some best-of-breed API in each category. Some categories may even need alternative selection due do special constraints: - On small footprint systems you trade flexibility for footprint. - Some maintenance modes (e.g: single user) may force you to manual config, so you cannot depend on running config deamons (gconf, *SQL, etc.) So you may want both full-blown API and a minimal-API for the same category (similar to glibc and dietlibc). --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
On Monday, Jan 13, 2003, at 12:39 Asia/Jerusalem, Nadav Har'El wrote: But not the typical comparison - in this article Dvorak is complaining the Linux [1] software developers are getting caught in a loop emulating Microsoft, including all their mistakes, For a change, Dvorak actually wrote something I agree with :-) This has been on of my main complaints about Linux for some time now, especially KDE (that I almost never use these days, exactly for that reason). It just feels too much like Windows. And one of the reasons I don't use Windows for my personal computing (for some work assignments I have to- I test a certain application which has to be tested both on Windows and on MacOS) is that Windows has a serious problem of feature bloat and clunky interface. It is so frustrating to see brand new applications (ximian evolution, openOffice etc) copy those problems. Hell, here is a chance to really innovate and get things working really well- not just at the backend where Linux is great, but also on the desktop. And what do we do? Copy Windows mistakes. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
For a change, Dvorak actually wrote something I agree with :-) This has been on of my main complaints about Linux for some time now, especially KDE (that I almost never use these days, exactly for that reason). It just feels too much like Windows. And one of the reasons I don't use Windows for my personal computing (for some work assignments I have to- I test a certain application which has to be tested both on Windows and on MacOS) is that Windows has a serious problem of feature bloat and clunky interface. It is so frustrating to see brand new applications (ximian evolution, openOffice etc) copy those problems. Hell, here is a chance to really innovate and get things working really well- not just at the backend where Linux is great, but also on the desktop. And what do we do? Copy Windows mistakes. You do agree, i (and almost all KDE developers) don't from the very simple reason - people are not starting to use Linux as their first OS, they are coming from Windows world and most of them simply don't want to learn everything from scratch - and thats why there's KDE (and there's GNOME - a thing which if Mr. RMS would have read my private email to him, wouldn't exist). Most people I know, don't want to learn everything from scratch. Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
Quoting Omer Zak, from the post of Mon, 13 Jan: I agree that this is a good and worthwhile idea. May I suggest that we start defining an API and a standard configuration library, and start encouraging application writers to migrate to the new library? famous last words? :) An application will treat configuration information as an hash (associative array). and who takes care of the name space, and what if you need stanzas (Apache and Samba come to mind) you will need to be acrobatic, since I know quite a few types of config files... (XML, lisp and other types of stanzas, plaintext hash such as fstab or a simple shell script to include, some that are only configurable at runtime since they are represented in objects of python, perl or Java and are serialized to disk every few minutes, and ofcourse configurations saved in SQL tables). You need to support locking of several instances reading the same configs, possibly a few writing too... and then it starts to look like a database. daemons for the configuration of each application? now who configures the config daemons? :) I like it lean and mean. instead of using unified config daemons, I say we stick to common, easely grokable formats. 2-3 archtypes that answer all our needs. apache, samba and bind should not have a different syntax, but daemon is an overkill of the other extreme. what are the chances this will happen in this decade? very slim, but good luck :) -- The man who fell to Earth Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg24910/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: article on ynet
Hetz Ben-Hamo wrote: (and there's GNOME - a thing which if Mr. RMS would have read my private email to him, wouldn't exist). I suspect the chances of any of us actually moving RMS (is that what the M stands for Mr? ;) are slim to none. He is a man of strong convictions. I'm sure he would have reminded you that when Gnome started, KDE was not free, among other things. Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
I suspect the chances of any of us actually moving RMS (is that what the M stands for Mr? ;) are slim to none. He is a man of strong convictions. I'm sure he would have reminded you that when Gnome started, KDE was not free, among other things. I have emailed him few weeks before Trolltech has announced that Trolltech are switching from QPL to dual license (GPL. QPL) - if he would have treated this mail, we probably wouldn't have GNOME today, and we wouldn't have 2 teams working on desktop enviroments.. After all - if 99% of the entire Linux community can agree to use XFree86, why do we need 2 desktop enviroments? it's just confuses ISVs, it's a nightmare to interoperate between them.. Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003, Ira Abramov wrote about Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...): An application will treat configuration information as an hash (associative array). and who takes care of the name space, and what if you need stanzas (Apache and Samba come to mind) The Unix approach (and to an even greater degree, the Plan9 approach) has always been to use the file system to supply name spaces. So you have ctwm's configuration in ~/.ctwmrc, zsh's configuration in ~/.zshrc, Mozilla's configuration in ~/.mozilla - no need for a central daemon that puts all these files together in one big (and easily corrupted, as Windows users know) registry or database. You could go even further with the filesystem-namespace paradigm, and make the different parts of a program's configuration (say, virtual servers and directories in Apache) to be separate configuration files and directories. The Reiserfs filesystem was designed exactly for (among other things) letting you to store tiny configuration files as files and directories, dropping the need for stuff like Windows' .ini files or registries, or even XML. You need to support locking of several instances reading the same configs, possibly a few writing too... and then it starts to look like a database. The file system solves this problem too, letting you lock files or (in some Unix implementations) parts of files. -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jan 13 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Are you still here? The message is over. http://nadav.harel.org.il |Shoo! Go away! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Evgeny Stambulchik wrote: The smart configurator can tell you if you have made an error in configuration, but it really does not allow any action: if any configuration requires some synchronization between two config keys, Never! There should never be a need to sync two different keys! Continuing the hostname example, it should be defined in a single place, e.g. local_machine-network_settings-hostname and all scripts/daemons/apps that need the value should access it instead of duplicating the data in their specific config sections! Can you imagine ServerRoot defined more than once (for the same virtual server) in the Apache config? Wouldn't it be a nonsense? But the same nonsense is defining server's hostname separately in sendmail's, httpd's, you name it configuration files. Wrong! My host has tens of different hostnames, also a host might have several IP addresses. Every application needs to know under which hostname it is working. For example, httpd will show a different page as different hostnames, and the mail daemon will serve different mailboxes for different domains. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Very few profundities can be expressed in less than 80 characters. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Error using hebrew in AbiWord.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:38:35 +0200 (IST) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: while trying to change language to hebrew in AbiWord Which version on which OS+version? i got this: Doing what? how can it be reproduced? could not load the directory for the he-IL language. OK, I'll do some guesswork... - On a RedHat-8.0, Abiword is installed without hebrew support files (you can verify with rpm -ql abiword that many languages are there but hebrew). - Trying to reproduce the message, it appeared only the first time I completed typing a word *after* setting Tools-Set Language to Hebrew. - So I turned off the Tools-Spelling-Auto Spellcheck and this message did *not* show up. - Seems like it (obviously) cannot find spellchecking data for hebrew - Also, if you want hebrew fonts etc, I think you better compile and install directly from sources (as RedHat doesn't ship any Hebrew related files with abiword) Now in return, I have an interesting question: - When I used 'strace' to follow abiword access to files and directories it *did not* access anything with 'he-IL' in its name - If I ran it with LANG=he_IL from the environment it did follow the normal search path for locales (through glibc, locale-alias etc.) - There was no difference regarding the error message you mention. - So, what (probabely internal) mechanism abiword use to resolve internal language definitions (from the menu). How this mechanism relate to the glibc locale mechanism. Researching this topic will not only help you solve your particular problem but may prove helpfull to other members of this list. This e-mail message has been sent by Elbit Systems Ltd. and is for the use of the intended recipients only. Am I the intended recipient? My mind reading capacities are improving lately, but are not there yet... The message may contain privileged or confidential information . Then don't send it at all! and you are requested to delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify the sender immediately. Hmmm... It was a long time since someone gave me orders, and even then it wasn't Elbit Systems Ltd :-) Let me rephrase the last paragraph for you (or rather your employer): This message was sent by someone from Elbit Systems Ltd. If this was directed to the wrong person (which may percieve it as unsolicited commercial mail -- also known as spam) we appologize for this mistake and kindly ask you to remove it from your computer. We will be very gratefull if you can spare the time to notify this mistake to the sender. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reading the netiquette(sp?) won't hurt either. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Your fair use of this book is restricted You may only read this book once = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: gif replacement (was Re: article in nana)
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:45:41 +0200 Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, for the record: From the two responds I got, it seems to me that the only way to make portable animations and not infringe copyrights You mean Patents -- nobody infringed the copyright of anyone with the GIF issue, just bludy patents. is to create uncompressed gifs. IIRC even this won't help as the GIF format itself was patented by Compuserve (while its compression by Unisys). This stupid thing will bite us for a good time. We should kill these technologies while they are still young (until/if some patent reform takes place). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron write your own operating system. It has worked every time for me -- Linus Thorvalds = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Oron Peled wrote: And I still don't l;ike the current gconf: it requires an extra daemon Worse! IIRC it's an extra daemon *per user* So what? It's a reasonable solution for this kind of problem. In KDE, there is DCOPServer and a bunch of others running per user. ssh, when used properly (i.e. _easy_ access of several hosts with _strong_ authentication) requires the 'ssh-agent' daemon running per user. Why don't you rant on ssh implementation? Is it the word daemon that worries you? Yes, if it dies, bad things may happen. But same is true for e.g. xinit which is not a daemon. Why should it die in the first place if correctly implemented? Also, replying to Evgeny: Having a standard and powerfull config mechanism is a GoodThing(tm) However, some config files in Unix/Linux are actually code (e.g: shell scripts, .emacs) which obviousely are more general than any config scheme you may come with. The solution is to provide hooks for external interpreters. Just like server/client-side scripting is for HTML, I can imagine procedures executed either by the config daemon or the application itself. If the proposed config mechanism is very general, it would bloat simple applications and their authors (justfully) won't use it. Very general doesn't mean bloated. The extensions are proveded via plugins and should be never exposed directly to the client. There is JavaScript available for HTML, but if I'm scared to learn it doesn't mean I can't use static HTML. The fact that there are a hundred Apache modules available (including those of alpha and beta quality) doesn't mean I should be afraid using Apache. I just don't load unnecessary/unreliable stuff. I do accept your observation, that in *many cases* there was no good reason to invent yet another poorly engineered config mechanism. I would suggest though, that a more realistic goal should be to *minimize* the number of different config types. For example: - A linear key=value pairs (e.g: INI files) - Hierarchic config (e.g: static XML) - Dynamic config (e.g: Registry/gconf) - Inherited config (e.g: environment variables) - where do I fit Xresources? - ... others Of course, the limit of minimization of a natural number is 1 ;-). Seriously, it's not the number of configuration formats that worries me, but the fact that there is no well-defined API to deal with them at the basic OS level (i.e. no other dependencies than libc). This causes the present situtation when a given application implements a config API internally but don't export it and a GUI config tool author has to re-invent the wheel. But since re-inventing the wheel isn't an exiting task (especially as far as parsing a custom config format is concerned), he usually decides to either abandon the parsing at all (one-side mapping) resulting in any changes done either manually or by another tool silently lost or does implement it partially which works for (in the best cases) majority of the options but anything beyond that is either again lost or makes the tool crash/misbehave. So we may try to converge to some best-of-breed API in each category. Some categories may even need alternative selection due do special constraints: - On small footprint systems you trade flexibility for footprint. - Some maintenance modes (e.g: single user) may force you to manual config, so you cannot depend on running config deamons (gconf, *SQL, etc.) So you may want both full-blown API and a minimal-API for the same category (similar to glibc and dietlibc). Right. But notice that an application that compiles with dietlibc should compile/work nicely with the full-blown variant without even noticing. Regards, Evgeny = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Hetz Ben-Hamo wrote: I suspect the chances of any of us actually moving RMS (is that what the M stands for Mr? ;) are slim to none. He is a man of strong convictions. I'm sure he would have reminded you that when Gnome started, KDE was not free, among other things. I have emailed him few weeks before Trolltech has announced that Trolltech are switching from QPL to dual license (GPL. QPL) - if he would have treated this mail, we probably wouldn't have GNOME today, and we wouldn't have 2 teams working on desktop enviroments.. A couple of more details: KDE started in 1996, in order to provide a better linux desktop. At the time, CDE was probably the best thing around. They chose to use QT because it was free/b and almost free/s . I figure that they dismissed the idea of actually selling anything related to KDE at the time... One of KDE's authors has been before the author of another great software: LyX. Again, it was based on an almost free toolkit (XForms) and this has hurt LyX in the long run, even though it is a great program (end of the story: XForms has become LGPL: the authors realized noone will buy it when there are better alternatives) KDE's authors were certainly pragmatists. But many in the linux community did not like this. Partly because of ideaological reasons (which are clear enough, and I'll spear them here) and partially for practical reasons: QT HAS A MONOPOLY - What if I want to apply a patch QT doesn't like? (I'm not allowed!) - What if QT doesn't want to support it anymore? - What if QT suddenly doesn't like SuSE? It is in a position to deny them of KDE and give their competitors an unfair atvantage I suspect that this is why RedHat chose not to include KDE (until it was forced by the community). Anyway, what do linux people do when they are faced with a non-free software? reimplement There has been at least one effort to re-implement QT. It did not get much help from KDE's folks. Therefore I must assume that they didn't feel bad about this license. Other people decided to build their own, competing, project: GNOME: Gnu Network Object Model Environment (or something simlar). As its name sugests, they have implemented there a number of novel buzzword concepts ;-) (e.g: network transparancy). RedHat needed a solid desktop for their distro, so they have actively supported gnome, by assigning developers to work on it, and by including it in their distro even before it was ready. SuSE, Mandrake (the distro that now calls itself pure GPL) and others had no problem with shipping KDE. Actually the demand of people has forced even RedHat to add KDE into its distro. Debian was maybe the only distro that didn't have KDE for licensing reasons. Gnome has been the field test of a number of nice concepts. It has grown to something fairly different from KDE. By the time QT have changed their license to something more acceptable (2000? 2001?) gnome has become something completely independent. There is no point in merging the two. But if some KDE zealots mention duplication of efforts as a reason for not developing anything other than KDE, this sounds very ironic: for 4 (5?) years KDE developers were dependent on a non-free library for a major functionality of their desktop. They did about zero effots to work around this *major* problem (I stress again: both idealogocal and practical problem). It is by pure luck that QT has changed its license. It is also by pure luck that QT has not collapased or anything in the interim. If one of the above would have happened, the work of the KDE project would have been lost. Some of the developers would have abandoned it. Some might have joined Miguel and Redhat in the project-that-starts-with-g . This would have been a major duplicated work! After all - if 99% of the entire Linux community can agree to use XFree86, why do we need 2 desktop enviroments? it's just confuses ISVs, it's a nightmare to interoperate between them.. Only one XFree for historical reasons. Only two major bloated desktops: for historical reasons -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So it's not such a huge loss if some work is duplicated. I'm not saying all work should be duplicated 10 times (like is happening in the commercial software world), but if parts of it is done a couple of times - it's not that horrible. It may actually be good, keeping competition up and the competitors on edge (hey, you Trolls, GNOME has this super-duper widget-thingy, you are really over 20 minutes behind on this feature that will conquer the market in about 10 days). I am just reading the Game Hackers part of Levy's book, where he describes how virtually the whole industry exchanged information about current and future projects (we are working on a car racing game, you better do something else instead), to avoid duplication of effort. That was in a market that was far from saturation, of course, which, I guess, was the desktop situation when Hetz emailed RMS (btw, I didn't realize that RMS was involved in starting GNOME, and I love those historical details - Hetz, or anyone, can you enlight me, on or off list?), so maybe Hetz has a point. It looks like the market for Hebrew spell-checkers is not so crowded either. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Taking any religion too seriously ... can be hazardous to your health. [Richard M. Stallman] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
Hi, I won't engage into any discussions about which desktop is better (for maybe obvious reasons), but let's still put a few facts straight: QT HAS A MONOPOLY Depends on what you call a monopoly. Its (IMO) the best available C++ GUI toolkit on X11. In that sense it might have one. - What if I want to apply a patch QT doesn't like? (I'm not allowed!) Wrong. Qt is under the GPL (since more than 2 years). You're allowed to patch it as much as you want (assuming you GPL your patches). Actually most distributors do that. - What if QT doesn't want to support it anymore? It's GPL, the community can pick it up and continue developing it. And even more: Once Trolltech stops supporting the community and stops releasing Qt under a free license, the last released version of Qt would automatically fall under a BSD license (meaning you could do more or less anything with it). Read http://www.trolltech.com/developer/faqs/free.html#Q8 for details. - What if QT suddenly doesn't like SuSE? It is in a position to deny them of KDE and give their competitors an unfair atvantage No, Qt is GPLed. Btw, the company producing Qt is Trolltech, not QT. Cheers, Lars = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
Alon Altman wrote:
Never! There should never be a need to sync two different keys! Continuing
the hostname example, it should be defined in a single place, e.g.
local_machine-network_settings-hostname and all scripts/daemons/apps
that need the value should access it instead of duplicating the data in
their specific config sections! Can you imagine ServerRoot defined more
than once (for the same virtual server) in the Apache config? Wouldn't it
be a nonsense? But the same nonsense is defining server's hostname
separately in sendmail's, httpd's, you name it configuration files.
Wrong! My host has tens of different hostnames, also a host might have
several IP addresses. Every application needs to know under which hostname
it is working. For example, httpd will show a different page as different
hostnames, and the mail daemon will serve different mailboxes for different
domains.
OK, so the config should be more complicated. E.g.
local_machine-network_settings-virtual_hosts[]-hostname. And then apps
should refer (probably by id) to a relevant element(s) of the
virtual_hosts[] array. See how this is done in fwbuilder - which is a very
nice example of proper configuration interface. You define an object once
and then refer to it in several places (even for different firewalls), so
if e.g. the DMZ mail server for a reason changes its IP, you change it
only in the single place.
My point is simple: there should be NO redundant definitions of config
parameters relevant for a given object. This rises no objections when the
object is an application, but for some reason people start to get nervous
when talking about the OS as a whole (or probably even about a domain of
computers). When I do find /etc -exec grep `hostname -s` {} \; on our
workgroup server I get 8 counts, and that's without /var/named and
probably a couple of other places. Is it normal?
Regards,
Evgeny
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Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configurationfiles as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
Hello Nadav, About month ago I released first version of daisy system. http://www.skliar.tkos.co.il/daisy/index.html Currently I concentrate on BVM (Bash Virtual Machine), but long term vision is to integrate BVM with DVS (Daisy Versioning Server). The DVS is more oriented on system administrators and should keep the system's configuration (instead of user's profile). To keep user's profile I am thinking about other project roamer that keeps all the user's files on an server on internet and syncs all configuration locally when user need to work locally. All changes user have done are synced back to internet server. The way I see the project would not require encouraging of application developers to comply to your configuration storage solution. The Unix approach (and to an even greater degree, the Plan9 approach) has always been to use the file system to supply name spaces. I am strong believer in one-line configuration files and multiple directories configuration. (see DVS_schema.txt in daisy tarball) You need to support locking of several instances reading the same configs, possibly a few writing too... and then it starts to look like a database. The roamer project is going to do locality locking: user is allowed to change all his files when he does checkout. After checkin no file change is allowed. Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jan 13 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 --- Bye, | Fax: (972)-2-6796453 Arieh | Phone: (972)-6795364 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configurationfiles as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
Also, consider making /etc a special filesystem that is actually an interface to the configuration daemon for legacy applications. It will need to know how to parse common config files, while keeping others as plain text. Alon On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Omer Zak, from the post of Mon, 13 Jan: I agree that this is a good and worthwhile idea. May I suggest that we start defining an API and a standard configuration library, and start encouraging application writers to migrate to the new library? [... snipped ...] You need to support locking of several instances reading the same configs, possibly a few writing too... and then it starts to look likea database. daemons for the configuration of each application? now who configures the config daemons? :) Depends upon the installation. Some installations will use a configuration library, which maintains simple configuration files. Other installations, which need the power, will use daemons. The applications should be transparent to those details. Of course, config daemons will need their own configuration (first of all, to tell which applications should they configure). In my eighth-baked design I mentioned a master configuration file exactly for determining who will supervise each application's configuartion. I like it lean and mean. instead of using unified config daemons, I say we stick to common, easely grokable formats. 2-3 archtypes that answer all our needs. apache, samba and bind should not have a different syntax, but daemon is an overkill of the other extreme. The API should be lean and mean. But behind it we can put whatever fat daemons and hungry tigers the installation needs. what are the chances this will happen in this decade? very slim, but good luck :) With a reasonable migration path (i.e. allowing each application also the option of using its legacy configuration mechanism), this should be achievable. -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Many are called, few volunteer. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configurationfiles as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: Also, consider making /etc a special filesystem that is actually an interface to the configuration daemon for legacy applications. It will need to know how to parse common config files, while keeping others as plain text. This sensible idea raises the following issue: Several applications, which are configured from /etc, look also for a dot file in the user's home directory, and use its contents to override the /etc copy of the configuration. How can those home directory configuration files be managed under the new scheme? How much will the applications have to be modified to allow per-user configuration with special /etc filesystem? --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The configuration API Project
I am proclaiming the following names for the configuration API libraries. If there is any objection to the names, say so now, or shut your mouth forever. (For convenience, I used the extension .so; it can as well be .a and/or have a version number.) libconfigapi.so - API to be invoked by configurable applications and configuration tools. It shall be installed in all systems. libconfigfiles.so - Access configuration files, invoked by the libconfigapi.so, for applications, which are configured by files. libconfigdaemon.so - Implement a configuration daemon, invoked by libconfigapi.so. libconfiglegacy.so - Exports to libconfigapi.so the same interface as the other libraries, but also allows applications to register their legacy configuration management code. --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The configuration API Project
Before announcing a project I suggest doing a comprehensive web search to check for existing projects doing the same or a basis for this project. Alon I am proclaiming the following names for the configuration API libraries. If there is any objection to the names, say so now, or shut your mouth forever. (For convenience, I used the extension .so; it can as well be .a and/or have a version number.) libconfigapi.so - API to be invoked by configurable applications and configuration tools. It shall be installed in all systems. libconfigfiles.so - Access configuration files, invoked by the libconfigapi.so, for applications, which are configured by files. libconfigdaemon.so - Implement a configuration daemon, invoked by libconfigapi.so. libconfiglegacy.so - Exports to libconfigapi.so the same interface as the other libraries, but also allows applications to register their legacy configuration management code. --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Do not think by infection, catching an opinion like a cold. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
Hi Lars, The quotes are part of what I describe as the situation before the license change. If it was not clear from my post: I have nothing agaist the current licensing of QT, and of the fact the KDE uses it, at present (as opposed to the past) And BTW: it was perfectly legitimate of TrollTech to licesnse QT under the original licensing scheme. On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Lars Knoll wrote: Hi, I won't engage into any discussions about which desktop is better (for maybe obvious reasons), but let's still put a few facts straight: QT HAS A MONOPOLY Depends on what you call a monopoly. Its (IMO) the best available C++ GUI toolkit on X11. In that sense it might have one. [ s/QT/TrollTech/, s/HAS/had/] - What if I want to apply a patch QT doesn't like? (I'm not allowed!) Wrong. Qt is under the GPL (since more than 2 years). You're allowed to patch it as much as you want (assuming you GPL your patches). Actually most distributors do that. - What if QT doesn't want to support it anymore? It's GPL, the community can pick it up and continue developing it. And even more: Once Trolltech stops supporting the community and stops releasing Qt under a free license, the last released version of Qt would automatically fall under a BSD license (meaning you could do more or less anything with it). Read http://www.trolltech.com/developer/faqs/free.html#Q8 for details. - What if QT suddenly doesn't like SuSE? It is in a position to deny them of KDE and give their competitors an unfair atvantage No, Qt is GPLed. Btw, the company producing Qt is Trolltech, not QT. Hmm..., of course. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Distributing KDE (Was: article on ynet)
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 03:07:21PM +0100, Lars Knoll wrote: Hi, Hello, You're allowed to patch it as much as you want (assuming you GPL your patches). Actually most distributors do that. Can you name the the ones who don't patch it? Can you list their reasons? Why would a distribution patch it in the first place rather then pick it off the shelf as it is? -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Distributing KDE (Was: article on ynet)
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 03:07:21PM +0100, Lars Knoll wrote: Can you name the the ones who don't patch it? Can you list their reasons? Why would a distribution patch it in the first place rather then pick it off the shelf as it is? I know that RedHat had some bigger patches in their version of Qt because they wanted Xft2 support before we officially supported it. SuSE usually sometimes applies smaller patches/bugfixes to the latest officially released version. Cheers, Lars = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
On Monday, Jan 13, 2003, at 13:41 Asia/Jerusalem, Hetz Ben-Hamo wrote: You do agree, i (and almost all KDE developers) don't from the very simple reason - people are not starting to use Linux as their first OS, they are coming from Windows world and most of them simply don't want to learn everything from scratch - and thats why there's KDE (and there's GNOME - a thing which if Mr. RMS would have read my private email to him, wouldn't exist). Most people I know, don't want to learn everything from scratch. 1) Learn everything from scratch? You are making assumptions here, which don't have to be true. Take OSX for example (yes, I keep going back to that one...) It is very different from Windows, and yet you don't need to learn everything from scratch when starting to work with it. 2) At any case, when moving to Linux from Windows, you _already_ need to learn things from scratch- as talked about in the earlier thread here. The file system is completely different (with different concepts then Windows), installation/ uninstallation of software is different, computer management is different. Frankly, I find the windows'ish of Linux more confusing then helping- it tends to make me incorrectly bring over windows concepts (after all, the UI is the same) which are totally irrelevent and even wrong. p.s. I prefer GNOME over KDE- it has much less of the windows chunkiness that KDE has. -- The News, Uncensored http://www.tellinglies.org/news/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configurationfiles as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Omer Zak wrote: On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: Also, consider making /etc a special filesystem that is actually an interface to the configuration daemon for legacy applications. It will need to know how to parse common config files, while keeping others as plain text. This sensible idea raises the following issue: Several applications, which are configured from /etc, look also for a dot file in the user's home directory, and use its contents to override the /etc copy of the configuration. The complete version of this: the site/distro defaults are under /usr , the local onfiguration adaptation are under /etc , and the user's final saying in under ~/.* (look at debian's menu system, for instance) -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
On Monday 13 January 2003 15:22, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Mon, Jan 13, 2003, Hetz Ben-Hamo wrote about Re: article on ynet: I have emailed him few weeks before Trolltech has announced that Trolltech are switching from QPL to dual license (GPL. QPL) - if he would have treated this mail, we probably wouldn't have GNOME today, and we wouldn't have 2 teams working on desktop enviroments.. You know, had I listened to all the people telling me of better ways to do a Hebrew spell-checker, or told me of other people who have non-free spell- checkers that could probably be swayed to make their spell-checker free, we would still not have a Hebrew spell-checker today. But my point is - that there was something (QT) which, true, wasn't released under GPL or LGPL, and I had the info that it would be released under a different license. It's not like I was saying I guarantee that in the future it be will GPL, I said to him: few weeks.. So sometimes developers of free software *should* stick to their guns, take risks, and not desert ship before the fog clears. And even if when the fog clears we are left with two alternatives solutions, it's not such a huge loss. In a few years, either one solution will sink (like most people don't remember Tcl/Tk, or even Xt and Motif, nowadays), or if there's enough merit in both both will remain (the Emacs/Vi war is raging on for almost 20 years). I agree with you on this one. Richard Stallman said in his lecture (and I don't know if he's right, but I guess he has all the data...) that we no longer have problems in finding people to write free software. So it's not such a huge loss if some work is duplicated. I'm not saying all work should be duplicated 10 times (like is happening in the commercial software world), but if parts of it is done a couple of times - it's not that horrible. It's not that there are missing people to write, the big thing that was missing (and it is today) people that write GOOD software. Here are 2 related example of great software, lously written: * OpenH323 PWLib - both are being used in H.323 based applications (video/audio chat, etc) - feel free to compile and install it - it's a LIVING NIGHTMARE! It doesn't know where to install and if it's installing, it doesn't install the.. umm... headers... * GnomeMeeting - Very nice piece of software which I really like, great features, and works well. Feel free to try to compile the CVS version, and you'll find how FUCKED up is Gnome build enviroment! such as mess! it doesn't even runs automake well, not to mention other parts (and the auto tools were invented to PREVENT such a fucked up job!) Actually, it's about time somebody started to develop X12... Or at least about a new version of the ICCCM or the Inter Client Exchange paradigms, that Gnome and KDE tried to reinvent (badly, in my opinion). If that happen's, you'll also have two versions of X windows :) Feel free to install Windows and try ANY of the commercial X windows servers, and you'll quickly find how they're lagging behind XFree86. Anti aliasing? XRandR? Xv? XRenderer? Xr/Xc extentions? they never heard of it., but you DO pay $495 for a single damn copy and they are all based on X11R5 (some of them are on X11R6).. The X.org organisation is practically dead. Instead of X.org members writing new stuff and XFree86 will porting from them, it's the other way around (if you have Access to Solaris 10 builds you'll find that just now, Sun just waked up to implement the XRenderer extention). Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux (was: Re: the problem with LINUX)
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:09:41 +0200 Evgeny Stambulchik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong! My host has tens of different hostnames, also a host might have several IP addresses. Every application needs to know under which hostname OK, so the config should be more complicated. E.g. local_machine-network_settings-virtual_hosts[]-hostname. And then apps So Allon presented one flaw in your assumptions and you came with a solution for this *specific* flaw... My point is simple: there should be NO redundant definitions of config parameters relevant for a given object. The world *should* behave as you just described, but... This rises no objections when the object is an application, but for some reason people start to get nervous when talking about the OS as a whole Because an application has (hopefully) very specific domain and scope, while an OS doesn't. Anybody who administered systems in real life knows that many times the unthinkable is the only reasonable option. A short example to make myself clear: Unix/Linux has a '-n' option to reboot that prevent syncing the buffer cache before reboot. Obviously this option would corrupt the mounted disks. Why is such an option needed? (and we are talking way before journaling filesystems :-) The answer is very simple (left as an exercise) and illustrate how real life sometimes force us into less than optimal solutions. Applying a logicaly closed solution to systems management problems has failed time after time. I think one of the reasons Unix survived for 30 years is the avoidance from over-engineering -- there's too much diversity and too much complexity. So your earlier suggestion about minimizing the config types to 1 is naive in my view. What is *realistic* to achieve IMHO (and still not easy task) is to try and encapsulate the known best practices -- i.e: - use the existing solutions as blueprints for what works (and what doesn't) in real life. - Fold all semantically equivalent solutions into a canonical solution for this class of solutions. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. (H. Spencer) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
terminology Q
Hi, What term would you use for proprietary system in Hebrew? -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
KDE's authors were certainly pragmatists. But many in the linux community did not like this. Partly because of ideaological reasons (which are clear enough, and I'll spear them here) and partially for practical reasons: QT HAS A MONOPOLY s/HAS/HAD ;) - What if I want to apply a patch QT doesn't like? (I'm not allowed!) Yes, you are, please read the QPL license. Fact is, that with since KDE 1.0 beta 2, QT was patched by the KDE (small) team. - What if QT doesn't want to support it anymore? Then it would have become GPL (again, read the license). - What if QT suddenly doesn't like SuSE? It is in a position to deny them of KDE and give their competitors an unfair atvantage No it's not, and wasn't.. I suspect that this is why RedHat chose not to include KDE (until it was forced by the community). Nope. They were including KDE after the license change only (see bero's RPMS for Red Hat 4 days after the license change) Anyway, what do linux people do when they are faced with a non-free software? reimplement There has been at least one effort to re-implement QT. It did not get much help from KDE's folks. Therefore I must assume that they didn't feel bad about this license. Yup, the free-QT, but it was done with some help from the KDE developers. Other people decided to build their own, competing, project: GNOME: Gnu Network Object Model Environment (or something simlar). As its name sugests, they have implemented there a number of novel buzzword concepts ;-) (e.g: network transparancy). Ah yeah. Anyone remembered Red Hat 6.1 with GNOME? :) RedHat needed a solid desktop for their distro, so they have actively supported gnome, by assigning developers to work on it, and by including it in their distro even before it was ready. Way before it was ready... nothing changed so much actually - feel free to try Red Hat 8.1 beta (phoebe) with their GNOME... SuSE, Mandrake (the distro that now calls itself pure GPL) and others had no problem with shipping KDE. Actually the demand of people has forced even RedHat to add KDE into its distro. Debian was maybe the only distro that didn't have KDE for licensing reasons. And 1 day after the license change - the whole debian users and their dog did apt-get install kde - I know, I've seen some logs ;) Gnome has been the field test of a number of nice concepts. It has grown to something fairly different from KDE. By the time QT have changed their license to something more acceptable (2000? 2001?) gnome has become something completely independent. There is no point in merging the two. Yup, you cannot merge them... But if some KDE zealots mention duplication of efforts as a reason for not developing anything other than KDE, this sounds very ironic: for 4 (5?) years KDE developers were dependent on a non-free library for a major functionality of their desktop. They did about zero effots to work around this *major* problem (I stress again: both idealogocal and practical problem). It is by pure luck that QT has changed its license. It is also by pure luck that QT has not collapased or anything in the interim. Nope, non luck at all. KDE DOES promotes and sell licenses. Trolltech are not Eazel, and they are and were aware of the issues. If one of the above would have happened, the work of the KDE project would have been lost. Some of the developers would have abandoned it. Some might have joined Miguel and Redhat in the project-that-starts-with-g . This would have been a major duplicated work! Why do you think so? SuSE, Mandrake slackware were releasing KDE with the QPL'd QT, and TrollTech didn't ask for a single dollar from them. If you follow GNOME KDE CVS - you'll find that it's the other way around, GNOME copies from KDE, and GNOME itself is MUCH more bloated compared to KDE. Just think about Nautilus - which uses Mozilla (or Gecko) which itself is a bloat (want to compare KHTML's 140k lines to Gecko - don't take my word, ask Apple engineers)... After all - if 99% of the entire Linux community can agree to use XFree86, why do we need 2 desktop enviroments? it's just confuses ISVs, it's a nightmare to interoperate between them.. Only one XFree for historical reasons. Think so? feel free to try XFree 4.3 - and whats going to come in 5.0 ;) Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A bunch of photos from the Tel-Aviv Linux Day and the dinner withRMS
http://toast.unwind.co.il/gallery/ibm_gnulinux_2003 http://toast.unwind.co.il/gallery/rms_nafis Nothing exciting, just some bad photography. In case you wanna do something with it, it's released into the public domain :) Enjoy. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: terminology Q
Uri Bruck wrote: Hi, What term would you use for proprietary system in Hebrew? ? ? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: terminology Q
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Uri Bruck wrote: Hi, What term would you use for proprietary system in Hebrew? MA'ARECHET KINYANIT? -- Orna. | http://tx.technion.ac.il/~agmon Had God wanted to create the world efficiently, she would have used LaTeX. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: the problem with LINUX
On Sat, 2003-01-11 at 09:32, shlomo solomon wrote:
I'm afraid this is going to start a **war** and that's not my intention, but I
really feel I've got to get this off my chest.
Firstly, let me say that I've been using LINUX on and off for 6 years and that
it's been my only OS since deleting OS/2 (zl) 3 years ago. So I'm a
committed LINUX user. And I have no intention of using anything else -
although my wife and kids all use Windows - and of course that makes me the
primary sysop for their machines :-(.
My problem is that LINUX (as much as it's progressed over the years) is still
much too hard to install, set up, and use. As things stand now, it's not
really a viable alternative for John Q. User. As opposed to other OSs (that
will remain nameless), there's still too much tweaking required. And for a
non-technical user, it's just impossible.
Shlomo, what you say must be true, at least in your own view. It also
must be important to you, since you have written to all of us about it.
If so, why don't you attampt to remedy those thins which you find are
bothering you? after all this IS what Free Software is about - not you
(or anyone else) getting somefor no pay, but your own (and everyone
else) ability to fix what they dim broken.
Linux is not the best OS in the world and it will never be, simply
because the world keeps changing. But contrary to other non free OS YOU
can adapt it so that it will fit your needs better. it's a unique
ability and a very powerfull one.
And yes, there are people that don't find this compelling. In truth, i
don't find them interesting all that much. We like to help people who
help themselves and obviously you are such a person since you solved
your problems). Other people - they can pay {Insert name of commercial
support company here} to solve their problems...
Gilad.
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Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configurationfiles as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...)
I have 2 things to say gconf DCOP Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Mon, Jan 13, 2003, Ira Abramov wrote about Re: New Free Software project anyone? (was: Re: Binary configuration files as panacea to whatever ails Linux ...): An application will treat configuration information as an hash (associative array). and who takes care of the name space, and what if you need stanzas (Apache and Samba come to mind) The Unix approach (and to an even greater degree, the Plan9 approach) has always been to use the file system to supply name spaces. So you have ctwm's configuration in ~/.ctwmrc, zsh's configuration in ~/.zshrc, Mozilla's configuration in ~/.mozilla - no need for a central daemon that puts all these files together in one big (and easily corrupted, as Windows users know) registry or database. You could go even further with the filesystem-namespace paradigm, and make the different parts of a program's configuration (say, virtual servers and directories in Apache) to be separate configuration files and directories. The Reiserfs filesystem was designed exactly for (among other things) letting you to store tiny configuration files as files and directories, dropping the need for stuff like Windows' .ini files or registries, or even XML. You need to support locking of several instances reading the same configs, possibly a few writing too... and then it starts to look like a database. The file system solves this problem too, letting you lock files or (in some Unix implementations) parts of files. -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jan 13 2003, 10 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Are you still here? The message is over. http://nadav.harel.org.il |Shoo! Go away! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ssh hangs for a long time
I wonder if anyone has seen the following problem and knows how to fix it. Trying to ssh from RH7.3 to a RH7.2 machine (with all the errata/updates) *sometimes* (not all the time) I see the connection hang for a long time before I get a password prompt. More specifically (trillian is a RH7.2 machine, the client is a RH7.3 machine, with a LAN, actually a crossed ethernet cable, between them), $ ssh -v -v oleg@trillian OpenSSH_3.1p1, SSH protocols 1.5/2.0, OpenSSL 0x0090602f debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh/ssh_config debug1: Applying options for * debug1: Rhosts Authentication disabled, originating port will not be trusted. debug1: restore_uid debug1: ssh_connect: getuid 500 geteuid 0 anon 1 Here the connection hangs, sometimes for minutes (though not always). debug1: Connecting to trillian [192.168.0.2] port 22. debug1: temporarily_use_uid: 500/100 (e=0) debug1: restore_uid debug1: temporarily_use_uid: 500/100 (e=0) debug1: restore_uid debug1: Connection established. and then everything goes as expected. The /etc/ssh/ssh_config on the server side is the one that comes with the system, I believe. In any case, the only uncommented stanza there is Host * ForwardX11 yes Has anyone got any ideas? Thanks, -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
Quoth Oleg Goldshmidt: $ ssh -v -v oleg@trillian [snips] Here the connection hangs, sometimes for minutes (though not always). [snips] debug1: Connection established. and then everything goes as expected. The /etc/ssh/ssh_config on the Could it be that trillian is a VERY old machine that needs to recalc keys? M -- ---OFCNL This is MY list. This list belongs to ME! I will flame anyone I want. Official Flamer/Cabal NON-Leader [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 10:51:49PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
Here the connection hangs, sometimes for minutes (though not always).
Maybe a DNS problem? Either you're trying to resolve the server's IP,
or the server is trying to resolve your IP, and times out when it
cannot contact the DNS server.
But I'm just guessing. 'strace' should give you a better clue. Run the
client thru it and watch the system calls which occur before the
hang. If the client's side gives no clues (e.g. it just seems to be
waiting for data from the server), try running a copy of sshd thru
'strace' ('sshd -D -p ' should allow you to debug it with strace on a
separate port without interrupting other users).
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Re: article on ynet
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:28:32 +0200 (IST) Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - What if QT doesn't want to support it anymore? Just one note. IIRC when KDE started working (pre-GPL), they've got some kind of official letter from Trolltech, containing assurances for various possible problems (if the company go bust, or sold, or want to deny KDE access to code etc.) So although QT wasn't free software at the time, it was free enough for KDE specifically and had the required safeguards to prevent the KDE effort going down the drain in case something bad happend to/with Trolltech. In a retrospect, we were all very lucky: - We got one really nice desktop. Good. - We have another nice and *different* desktop. Very good. - Eventually, QT is GPL. Excelent. - And Trolltech are still doing nice business with it. Who said the GPL is bad for business? (answer: Craig Mundie :-) Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron If it's not source, it's not software. -- www.gnu.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
Official Flamer/Cabal NON-Leader [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could it be that trillian is a VERY old machine that needs to recalc keys? No. And it hangs before it even gets to the keys. By the time keys enter the picture things fly. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 10:51:49PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
Here the connection hangs, sometimes for minutes (though not always).
Maybe a DNS problem? Either you're trying to resolve the server's IP,
or the server is trying to resolve your IP, and times out when it
cannot contact the DNS server.
The two machines have each other in their respective /etc/hosts, and
their IP's are 192.168.0.{1,2}.
I'll try to run strace, as you suggested. Problem is, the effect
occurs only occasionally...
--
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Fri, 2003-01-10 at 23:33, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: The more I think about it, the more problem I have with it. I distrust ideology (managing to respect the notion in the process), and I have resolved many years ago that I would not be a member of any organization whose purposes and charter are beyond purely professional. This is regardless of whether I support the ideology in question or not. Please don't take it as reflecting in any negative way on Hamakor or its members or their views. I would like to hope that Hamakor could be an organization of cpmputer professionals that deals with technology, leaving ideology to Opinion pages. I don't think Hamakor should *explicitly* deal with bringing freedom to the society, noble as the cause may be. If Hamakor has ideological purposes, I'll have to deal with the conflict with who I am. I guess I'll have to re-read the amuta's web site. Oleg, DisclaimerThe following is *my* private opinion and mine alone, not any official Amuta stuff./disclaimer In that case, I believe membership in Hamakor is not for you. I will explain why: Hamakor is NOT an organization of computer professional. Some of the current members aren't computer proffesional at all and I seriously hope that we will get *more* non proffesionals in the future. Furthermore, while I will not comment on whether we are an ideological organization or not (becuase I'm not sure what that means), I do believe that freedom is a good thing in a very practical sense whether this practical sense is expressed in better software OR in a better society. This does not have to mean that we should have a Dogma(tm). I've always tried to not let my ideals keep me from doing the Right Thing(tm) and I don't like a set and fixed rules that says: this is OK, this isn't simply because I think life are simply not that simple. But between this and forgoing the idea that freedom is good altogether there is a long road IMHO. Just my 2cs, Gilad. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: article on ynet
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: KDE's authors were certainly pragmatists. But many in the linux community did not like this. Partly because of ideaological reasons (which are clear enough, and I'll spear them here) and partially for practical reasons: QT HAS A MONOPOLY s/HAS/HAD ;) - What if I want to apply a patch QT doesn't like? (I'm not allowed!) Yes, you are, please read the QPL license. Fact is, that with since KDE 1.0 beta 2, QT was patched by the KDE (small) team. Indeed I can't find any such limitation in the copy of QT (1.0, (c) 1999-2000) on my system. But I specifically remember the notes of qt 1.44 of a certain Madrake version that had an explicit authoriztion from TrollTech to apply a certain patch. Anyway, what was the license before 1999 (or 2000)? - What if QT doesn't want to support it anymore? Then it would have become GPL (again, read the license). - What if QT suddenly doesn't like SuSE? It is in a position to deny them of KDE and give their competitors an unfair atvantage No it's not, and wasn't.. Again: you read it out-of-context: thse quotes referred to the situation before the license change. I suspect that this is why RedHat chose not to include KDE (until it was forced by the community). Nope. They were including KDE after the license change only (see bero's RPMS for Red Hat 4 days after the license change) Anyway, what do linux people do when they are faced with a non-free software? reimplement There has been at least one effort to re-implement QT. It did not get much help from KDE's folks. Therefore I must assume that they didn't feel bad about this license. Yup, the free-QT, but it was done with some help from the KDE developers. the ? IIRC (I can't back this with quotes from quick searches). : There were good reasons why it never took off. Partially because it never got enough encourgement from key KDE developers. For them the free QT license was good enough, as it has been for some distros. Other people decided to build their own, competing, project: GNOME: Gnu Network Object Model Environment (or something simlar). As its name sugests, they have implemented there a number of novel buzzword concepts ;-) (e.g: network transparancy). Ah yeah. Anyone remembered Red Hat 6.1 with GNOME? :) IIRC it was RH 6.0 that officially announced gnome 1.0 or something similar. Anyway, I remember gnome 0.9-something in redhat 5.2 and IIRC they had even gnome 0.3-something in one of their previous releases (not as the default desktop, naturally) RedHat needed a solid desktop for their distro, so they have actively supported gnome, by assigning developers to work on it, and by including it in their distro even before it was ready. Way before it was ready... nothing changed so much actually - feel free to try Red Hat 8.1 beta (phoebe) with their GNOME... I dare say that gnome 1.0 consumed less memory than current gnome, but it was far less usable and far less stable. (the same applies for the KDE version of the time, (1.1, IIRC) compared to the current one) SuSE, Mandrake (the distro that now calls itself pure GPL) and others had no problem with shipping KDE. Actually the demand of people has forced even RedHat to add KDE into its distro. Debian was maybe the only distro that didn't have KDE for licensing reasons. And 1 day after the license change - the whole debian users and their dog did apt-get install kde - I know, I've seen some logs ;) debian-rulez yea, apt makes this too easy to install it. Why not install it. Using it is another thing :-p /debian-rulez Gnome has been the field test of a number of nice concepts. It has grown to something fairly different from KDE. By the time QT have changed their license to something more acceptable (2000? 2001?) gnome has become something completely independent. There is no point in merging the two. Yup, you cannot merge them... But if some KDE zealots mention duplication of efforts as a reason for not developing anything other than KDE, this sounds very ironic: for 4 (5?) years KDE developers were dependent on a non-free library for a major functionality of their desktop. They did about zero effots to work around this *major* problem (I stress again: both idealogocal and practical problem). It is by pure luck that QT has changed its license. It is also by pure luck that QT has not collapased or anything in the interim. Nope, non luck at all. KDE DOES promotes and sell licenses. Trolltech are not Eazel, and they are and were aware of the issues. I've heard many people that say MS should start porting its server software to linux. Somehow it's not happening. And does a company always do the right thing? Maybe a company has some bigger fish to fry? (such fish can be discovered once ownership is changed) If one of the above would have happened, the work of the KDE project would have been lost. Some of
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 10:51:49PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Trying to ssh from RH7.3 to a RH7.2 machine (with all the errata/updates) *sometimes* (not all the time) I see the connection hang for a long time before I get a password prompt. More specifically (trillian is a RH7.2 machine, the client is a RH7.3 machine, with a LAN, actually a crossed ethernet cable, between them), $ ssh -v -v oleg@trillian OpenSSH_3.1p1, SSH protocols 1.5/2.0, OpenSSL 0x0090602f debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh/ssh_config debug1: Applying options for * debug1: Rhosts Authentication disabled, originating port will not be trusted. debug1: restore_uid debug1: ssh_connect: getuid 500 geteuid 0 anon 1 Here the connection hangs, sometimes for minutes (though not always). DNS lookup? is your system set to look through /etc/hosts first, DNS server later? the sometime you mention could be the timeout until the DNS server does not respond and the query is done through /etc/hosts. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda Muli's corrolary to Godwin's law: Any discussion of anything is over when shlomif mentions freecell solver. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
On Mon, Jan 13, 2003, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about ssh hangs for a long time: Trying to ssh from RH7.3 to a RH7.2 machine (with all the errata/updates) *sometimes* (not all the time) I see the connection hang for a long time before I get a password prompt. More This symptom commonly happens when there're name-server problems, and the server tries to back-resolve the client's IP and hangs waiting for the name server. Could it be that you're having some transient name server problems? -- Nadav Har'El| Tuesday, Jan 14 2003, 11 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I want to be a human being, not a human http://nadav.harel.org.il |doing -- Scatman John = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could it be that you're having some transient name server problems? I thought that I shouldn't have this kind of problem because both computers have each other in /etc/hosts (both hostname and FQDN). I was under the impression that /etc/hosts is consulted first and if it helps, no name server is consulted. Now I have my doubts (and I couldn't reproduce the problem since my OP). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 01:45:06AM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could it be that you're having some transient name server problems? I thought that I shouldn't have this kind of problem because both computers have each other in /etc/hosts (both hostname and FQDN). I was under the impression that /etc/hosts is consulted first and if it helps, no name server is consulted. Now I have my doubts (and I couldn't reproduce the problem since my OP). What does /etc/host.conf say? /etc/nsswitch.conf? in both cases, hosts should be consulted first, and then the DNS server. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda Muli's corrolary to Godwin's law: Any discussion of anything is over when shlomif mentions freecell solver. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The configuration API Project
Alon Altman wrote: Before announcing a project I suggest doing a comprehensive web search to check for existing projects doing the same or a basis for this project. Yes, there is one. It's called LDAP, and it has a decent API. All you need is to dump the data from the directory to a set of configuration files. -- Arik = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ssh hangs for a long time
Muli Ben-Yehuda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What does /etc/host.conf say? /etc/nsswitch.conf? in both cases, hosts should be consulted first, and then the DNS server. /etc/host.conf: order hosts,bind /etc/nsswitch.conf: hosts: files nisplus dns Both seem right to me... -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
