RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Title: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) At the present I now that the Instructor is looking for a public domain or demo tool for version control which I guess is an alternative to Rational ClearCase and not Rational Rose. Sorry for not being clearer. This subject is new to me. -Original Message- From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:13 PM To: Josh Roden Cc: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Josh Roden wrote: Thank all of you for your advice. The instructor is abroad now and I am waiting for his response to all of the suggestions given here at the group. Hi Josh! You still have not explained whether you are looking for an alternative to Rational ClearCase (i.e: a version control/software configuration management system) or to Rational Rose (i.e: a CASE/UML tool). I am curious, that's all. Regards, Shlomi Fish Thank you, Josh Roden -- Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic.
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Josh Roden wrote: At the present I now that the Instructor is looking for a public domain or demo tool for version control which I guess is an alternative to Rational ClearCase and not Rational Rose. Sorry for not being clearer. This subject is new to me. Well, in this case, there are some recommendations I can make. CVS is the de-facto state of the art now in the open-source world, but it has many serious limitations. There were several attempts to create something better out of it (CVSNT and Meta-CVS), but they're probably not going to advance too much because the CVS architecture is too limited. One nice alternative to CVS is Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/). It is cross-platform (runs on UNIXes and Win32), and has many features missing from CVS. Among else, it supports file and directories copies and moves, atomic commits, O(1) branching and tagging, tunneling over HTTP/S, permissions at the HTTP level and support for versioning of binary files. It is still technically alpha software so may still have some performance problems and minor quirks. Still, it is very usable. Another prominent alternative is Arch (http://gnuarch.org/). Arch uses a dumb file transfer service (such as FTP, SFTP or WebDAV) as its service, and so a service can be very easily deployed. I don't know if it's portable to Win32. Arch is distributed and so every developer can maintain his own repository and propagate changes from one another. There's also Aegis which is quite capable, but isn't networked. It is very mature now, and has been around for several years. There's also OpenCM, which is not as feature-rich as CVS, but still has some unique advantages. (albeit Subversion, which aims to be a superset of CVS' functionality will probably be a better choice). Then there's Monotone, a new version control system written in C++, which is promising, but is yet to be used by many people. It is supposed to be portable to Win32, but was not explicitly ported there yet. You can find a comparison of them here: http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html Regards, Shlomi Fish -Original Message- From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:13 PM To: Josh Roden Cc: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Josh Roden wrote: Thank all of you for your advice. The instructor is abroad now and I am waiting for his response to all of the suggestions given here at the group. Hi Josh! You still have not explained whether you are looking for an alternative to Rational ClearCase (i.e: a version control/software configuration management system) or to Rational Rose (i.e: a CASE/UML tool). I am curious, that's all. Regards, Shlomi Fish Thank you, Josh Roden -- Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writinga BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Thank all of you for your advice. The instructor is abroad now and I am waiting for his response to all of the suggestions given here at the group. Thank you, Josh Roden
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Josh Roden wrote: Thank all of you for your advice. The instructor is abroad now and I am waiting for his response to all of the suggestions given here at the group. Hi Josh! You still have not explained whether you are looking for an alternative to Rational ClearCase (i.e: a version control/software configuration management system) or to Rational Rose (i.e: a CASE/UML tool). I am curious, that's all. Regards, Shlomi Fish Thank you, Josh Roden -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
We (Hadassah College - Computer Science)want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciateanybody'ssuggestions. Josh Roden
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
--=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can try Argo UML http://argouml.tigris.org/ shany On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN HTML HEAD META HTTP-EQUIV=Content-Type CONTENT=text/html; CHARSET=UTF-8 META NAME=GENERATOR CONTENT=GtkHTML/3.0.7 /HEAD BODY You can try Argo UMLBR A HREF=http://argouml.tigris.org/;http://argouml.tigris.org//ABR BR shanyBR BR On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE FONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=2IWe (Hadassah College - Computer Science)nbsp;want to giveBR a course in quot;Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)quot;BR and are looking for and open source solution instead of BR purchasingnbsp;/FONTFONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=3 Rational ClearCase/FONTFONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=2.BR I would appreciatenbsp;anybody'snbsp;suggestions./FONTBR FONT COLOR=#737373nbsp;/FONTBR FONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=2Josh Roden/FONTBR FONT COLOR=#737373 /I/FONT /BLOCKQUOTE /BODY /HTML --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
word of caution! i have evaluated the thing last semester for the technion. aside from the many drawbacks i can specify one that is mucho annoying: you can do association class! forget it, it doesn't worth the hassle. note: poseidon is an extension of argouml. here is my short eval in hebrew: CASE POSEIDON: : ( 25) ! . ASSOCIATION CLASS . ( ) UNIDIRECTIONAL ASSOCIATION. . 10 15 ,3 500 385 . UML . (AUTOLAYOUT) . : ( 10 15) . JAVA . * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shany Pozin Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:44 AM To: Josh Roden Cc: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can try Argo UML http://argouml.tigris.org/ shany On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN HTML HEAD META HTTP-EQUIV=Content-Type CONTENT=text/html; CHARSET=UTF-8 META NAME=GENERATOR CONTENT=GtkHTML/3.0.7 /HEAD BODY You can try Argo UMLBR A HREF=http://argouml.tigris.org/;http://argouml.tigris.org//ABR BR shanyBR BR On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE FONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=2IWe (Hadassah College - Computer Science)nbsp;want to giveBR a course in quot;Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)quot;BR and are looking for and open source solution instead of BR purchasingnbsp;/FONTFONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=3 Rational ClearCase/FONTFONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=2.BR I would appreciatenbsp;anybody'snbsp;suggestions./FONTBR FONT COLOR=#737373nbsp;/FONTBR FONT COLOR=#737373 SIZE=2Josh Roden/FONTBR FONT COLOR=#737373 /I/FONT /BLOCKQUOTE /BODY /HTML --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Josh Roden wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasingRational ClearCase. Are you sure you mean ClearCase? ClearCase is a Version Control System or Software Configuration Management system. That's something different entirely to CASE. The Rational CASE product is called Rational Rose. Regards, Shlomi Fish I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. JoshRoden -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
read this, very enlightening converting from clearcase to cvs http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/info-cvs/2002-02/msg00552.html also, note that there is a cvs for win32 (i.g: win 2000) www.cvsnt.org works fairly well, but the linux version is better. for clients in windows you have wincvs that i can tell you that even INTEL uses and recommend. for linux you have many good client tools, checkout freshmeat.net A good open source diff/merge tool you can find at sourceforge.net - winmerge for windows. for linux there are meld in kde i believe, and kdiff3 http://kdiff3.sourceforge.net/ and kompare http://bruggie.dnsalias.org/kompare/ enjoy * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Josh Roden Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:44 AM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Josh Roden wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase . I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden I'm having the same problem at the moment - finding a decent UML/CASE tool that works on Linux, and is free (not the same). I'll share with you what I've dug up, and I suggest you try a few and see which one 'floats your boat': * Argouml - Free, Java based (aka sluggish) , limited in capabilities - only a few diagram types are supported. * Poseidon - there are a few versions (based on Argouml). I used version 1.6 Community Edition. I thought it was the best solution for me - it has more capabilities than Argo. It still a bit sluggish, and a little buggy (doesn't work well with big documents which contain dozens of classes). Oh, and you can't print in the CE version. * Dia - not a case tool but a diagram tool, which has some limited UML capabilites. Free, but pretty ugly (it matters!), and not intelligent - doesn't really know about classes and attributes, except from a graphical point of view. * Umbrello - haven't used it. QT based, find it at http://uml.sourceforge.net/index.php * TCM - Toolkit for Conceptual Modeling at http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~tcm/ . Haven't used it, so I can't comment. * Rational Rose - the mother of all CASE tools. There are evaluation versions that you can download (about 90 MB). I found it to be an overkill, and too smart, but I'm not working on enterprise wide projects or anything like that. Like I mentioned before, I found Poseidon CE to offer the best combination of features, although it's not without its faults. I don't know what their prices are like for the higher end versions. Cheers, Gad -- http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~gabraham = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). Just my 0.02 NIS. Rony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 To: Lior Kesos Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Yaacov Fenster - System Engineering Troubleshooting and other miracles wrote: Having/being a relatively heavy user of Clearcase I would disagree with you. Clearcase is a mature product. It's problem is that it has so many options and possibilities that it is trivial to shoot yourself in the foot. In order to set it up for usage by non-CC gurus, you have to put in quite a lot of thought. But I would agree that it most likely did cause things generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult.. It takes up many more resources, and once one person did something wrong, the problems tend to compound as other users try to work around the initial problem. This is not a system to be taken lightly. As you indicated, CVS+bugzilla is usually a much better solution for small to medium size groups. Is a 300 developers shop considered medium or large? If the later, I'm afraid we just ran out of group sizes that CC IS good for. The original setup was CVS+ClearQuest. ClearQuest was very slow. CVS wasn't too fast either, and had serious locks problem (i.e. - people would constantly have locks on directories because they were commiting/tagging). The later problems affected mostly project managers (as the rest would only need a lock on a single directory, and thus were not too much bothered by the problem). In any case, an elaborate system (that was necessary anyways) was put in place to seperate the company's source code into almost independant modules, so that the problem was really affecting very few people. After the switch to clearcase+clearquest, several things became apparent: A. Integration didn't work. The theory that CC and CQ can integrate didn't stand up to real life. Things crawled to a standstill the moment that was turned on. B. ClearCase didn't respond well to being hosted on NetApp. Nobody knew exactly what the problems were, but strange problems would happen all the time (see - 500MB quota story). C. CC didn't scale. Each server could only run 1000 processes, and as each view requires a server process, there were constant requests from the admin team for people to delete views. D. While the locking problem indeed went away, the average time it took to checkout a new project, or to perform any other operation, had actually increased rather than decreased. E. No decent command line support. The beutiful diff tools are only available as GUI. No convinent cvs diff -u. As we all know, the effeciveness of GUI has a certain cap. It was very annoying to bump against it. Now, I have not been there for quite some time. Maybe some or all of these problems got better as administrators got better aquented. Maybe the generation that knew how things have been on CVS is slowly leaving, so that people no longer know that they are having a bad system. Maybe they are still cursing under their lips every time they have to do a CC operation. I don't know. I do know that the migration took over a year, with the close help of Rational. I agree that many of these probelms probably won't affect people working in smaller groups. Then again, these people can probalby be as effective with CVS, since the added functionality CC gives there is less important. To me, this spells you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion methodology. + Java case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works with microsoft access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use xml. if anyone wants contact me. if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under the hood then any other methodology out there for agents. for life processes its the tool of choice. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rony Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). Just my 0.02 NIS. Rony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 To: Lior Kesos Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Rony Shapiro wrote: Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? What about cvs -qn up -r bugfix16? and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. That depends on your setup. If you kept a good log in the history, there is no reason to not be able to answer that (and CVS can be configured to require you to do so). Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Please explain. Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. I don't think it makes sense to try and compare CVS with Rational Rose. It's like asking whether Mozilla is better than kreversi. -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Tzahi Fadida wrote: UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion methodology. + Java case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works with microsoft access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use xml. What I don't understand is how it is possible to effectively replace MS Access with XML. Databases offer O(1) or O(logN) search for records, while XML is O(n). Unless, of course, the database is managed entirely in memory, and dumped and restored from the disk everytime. Regards, Shlomi Fish if anyone wants contact me. if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under thehood then any other methodology out there for agents. for life processes its the tool of choice. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS:see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rony Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). Just my 0.02 NIS. Rony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 To: Lior Kesos Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasingRational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that thesystem is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = Tounsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Rony Shapiro wrote: Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? What about cvs -qn up -r bugfix16? Subversion can do that, and so can many other alternatives (Aegis, Arch, etc.) and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. That depends on your setup. If you kept a good log in the history, there is no reason to not be able to answer that (and CVS can be configured to require you to do so). Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Please explain. This is a feature of a software configuration management system. CVS is a pure version control system that only tracks changes to file. Some systems (like Aegis) are more copmlex, and also enable reviewing the code, testing it, etc. These are called software conf management systems. Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. I don't think it makes sense to try and compare CVS with Rational Rose. It's like asking whether Mozilla is better than kreversi. The question of course is whether Josh wanted a CASE tool (like Rational Rose or ArgoUML) or an SCM/Version Control tool (like CVS, ClearCase, Subversion, Aegis, etc.). Since he said he wanted a CASE tool and was going to buy Rational ClearCase, it's hard to tell, but IMH guess he probably meant Rational Rose. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Dear original poster - While we're asking bigger picture questions - what do you need CASE for? this is not a rhetorical question. All of these tools take quite a bit of work to get them to help you. Unless you have a precisely defined need, you might get some pretty pictures, but are very unlikely to actually achieve any goals. If you have specific goals, specifying them expicitly will help the list help you. Daniel Tzahi Fadida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion methodology. + Java case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works with microsoft access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use xml. if anyone wants contact me. if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under the hood then any other methodology out there for agents. for life processes its the tool of choice. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rony Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). Just my 0.02 NIS. Rony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 To: Lior Kesos Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rony Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM release 3.4?. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's coding - Concurrent versioning system. hmm... yes it doesn know coding. unit test - does clearcase test your program or hardware part? lets talk about it. how do you really test a part, you take a revision and test it. cvs can do that no? integration - is clearcase some kind of ai with robots that takes softwares and integrate them? mind you, that this should have been done in the requirement and design stages though we know better how it works. again, just more coding. release - hmm... CVS - branching a major version. maintenance - commiting to the major version that was created. lets talk now about the requirements design and implementation and maintenance. the first 2 are clearly not connected to a versioning system or configuration management. its about good practices, using a good UML case tool? (or prefferably throwing the UML garbage, saving a lot of time and use OPM :) as for implementation, CVS is all for that. maintenance is just a big word for patching major versions. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Hi, I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? What about cvs -qn up -r bugfix16? Exactly my point - you have to define a label bugfix16, and adhere to that naming convention. What if someone creates a label BugFix18? The system does not enforce any policy - you need the discipline to adhere to naming conventions, and the luck to avoid typos... and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. That depends on your setup. If you kept a good log in the history, there is no reason to not be able to answer that (and CVS can be configured to require you to do so). Again, I agree that this is *possible* in CVS, but it depends on the goodwill, self-discipline, and luck of all the programmers involved. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Please explain. Explicit knowledge of the development process makes it easier to handle the files/revisions associated with changes. For example, if I fixed some files so that they pass my unit tests, but didn't pass integration tests yet, the changes should be visible to another programmer, but not to the release builder, say. Again, I'm not saying that you can't do these kind of tricks with CVS, but a commercial configuration management tool makes this easier, and enforces the policy/process that you've defined. I don't think it makes sense to try and compare CVS with Rational Rose. It's like asking whether Mozilla is better than kreversi. Violent agreement here. Rony = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
lets talk now about the requirements design and implementation and maintenance. the first 2 are clearly not connected to a versioning system or configuration management. its about good practices, using a good UML case tool? (or prefferably throwing the UML garbage, saving a lot of time and use OPM :) as for implementation, CVS is all for that. maintenance is just a big word for patching major versions. What's up with the OPM website? It doens't work with Mozilla 1.4 and the pdf file explaining what it actually is, is missing. Gad -- http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~gabraham = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
i don't know if its not hackers-il material but: You said it, you can't. The thing is, you don't have too. its not an application that requires that much performance for disk drive reading. you load the file into memory once, then when the user click save it dumps it back to disk. for manipulation we use DOM. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 2:28 PM To: Tzahi Fadida Cc: Rony Shapiro; Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Tzahi Fadida wrote: UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion methodology. + Java case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works with microsoft access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use xml. What I don't understand is how it is possible to effectively replace MS Access with XML. Databases offer O(1) or O(logN) search for records, while XML is O(n). Unless, of course, the database is managed entirely in memory, and dumped and restored from the disk everytime. Regards, Shlomi Fish if anyone wants contact me. if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under thehood then any other methodology out there for agents. for life processes its the tool of choice. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS:see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rony Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting meta-data on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom? and what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?. Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). Just my 0.02 NIS. Rony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 To: Lior Kesos Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasingRational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Rony Shapiro wrote: What about cvs -qn up -r bugfix16? Exactly my point - you have to define a label bugfix16, and adhere to that naming convention. What if someone creates a label BugFix18? The system does not enforce any policy - you need the discipline to adhere to naming conventions, and the luck to avoid typos... What's wrong with having a script to enforce this, e.g. submit-bugfix 16? In my previous workplace we had a very very good locally evolved working procedure and command-line tools writen as Perl scripts wrapping Perforce and doing other stuff around it like updating the bugs database etc. In my current workplace me and a co-worker from the previous workplace are trying to reach a similar state, currently on top of CVS. Again, I agree that this is *possible* in CVS, but it depends on the goodwill, self-discipline, and luck of all the programmers involved. Programmer discipline is important in any case. You can make it easier by providing tools (e.g. scripts) which must be used in order to touch stuff in your CVS/bug-database. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:25:47PM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rony Shapiro wrote: What about cvs -qn up -r bugfix16? Exactly my point - you have to define a label bugfix16, and adhere to that naming convention. What if someone creates a label BugFix18? The system does not enforce any policy - you need the discipline to adhere to naming conventions, and the luck to avoid typos... What's wrong with having a script to enforce this, e.g. submit-bugfix 16? In my previous workplace we had a very very good locally evolved working procedure and command-line tools writen as Perl scripts wrapping Perforce and doing other stuff around it like updating the bugs database etc. In my current workplace me and a co-worker from the previous workplace are trying to reach a similar state, currently on top of CVS. There is so,ething called cvszilla: http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/~tonyg/ from what I read it is not trivial to install... -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
