Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
The problem with egroups is the commercial. Evem if I put in my digital signature it will break in and make the digital signature broken. Listar doesn't break into if there's a signature. Noam Meltzer Ira Abramov wrote: On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: As for a web interface - I guess it's pointless to mention the name eGr???s again, so I won't... why not? I've shouted "egroups" here far too many times. I was ignored, but nobody objected either. ok, I say we start it as a test. right now we have an archive that is open to harvesters, and a listar manager that changes every few months. moving to Egroups will give us: * spam protected web archives * choice of reading online, in Email, full digests or header digests * polls * chat room for online meetings * calendar of events, and other cool features too many to list here * remote management can be delegated dynamicly to any group member * better return time of messages from the list (Listar shortened majordomo's response time from hours to minutes, Egroups takes usually only seconds) I can tell you I have been using their service for over 2 years now very happily. I don't mind even donating the monthly $5 it costs to keep the ads away. I don't get any spam through them either. what say you? vote with your fingers! add yourselves here to test it: http://www.egroups.com/group/iglu/ if we have a mass of over half the list (how many subscribers do we have, Ely?) move over, I think we can declare it official. any of the frequent posters wanting manager rights just has to ask me, this is how a community should work! Back to the original topic - There are some mailing lists with nntp interface. From the little I know - not all of them are filled with spam. Is it because of some brutal filtering methods , or very active list managers? or it never leaves one specific nntp server and doesn't get to nntp servers viewed by spammers... As for me personally - using no filters what so ever, I have only recived very few spam messages, and I don't exactly hide my email. But then again - I'm not a very active poster. I am, and believe me it hurts. I filter hard and mercilessly, and I still get 10-12 a day. so again, please check out: http://www.egroups.com/group/iglu/ we can set it up as a sublist of huji's but I think it will prevent us from using all the creative management features. -- Ira Abramov ; whois:IA58 ; www.scso.com ; all around Linux enthusiast "[In 'Doctor' mode], I spent a good ten minutes telling Emacs what I thought of it. (The response was, 'Perhaps you could try to be less abusive.')" (By Matt Welsh) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
At 12:02 +0200 on 08/01/2000, Noam Meltzer wrote: The problem with egroups is the commercial. Evem if I put in my digital signature it will break in and make the digital signature broken. Listar doesn't break into if there's a signature. You mean it sends over ads in the e-mails? I use e-groups for archiving purposes only. My list actually runs on listproc somewhere else, but it is archived on e-groups. This gives me a web-based archive, with search, and in fact gives me all the extras like the calendar and polls - though I don't really use them - but the e-mails themselves are passed intact. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: As for a web interface - I guess it's pointless to mention the name eGr???s again, so I won't... why not? I've shouted "egroups" here far too many times. I was ignored, but nobody objected either. ok, I say we start it as a test. right now we have an archive that is open to harvesters, and a listar manager that changes every few months. moving to Egroups will give us: * spam protected web archives * choice of reading online, in Email, full digests or header digests * polls * chat room for online meetings * calendar of events, and other cool features too many to list here * remote management can be delegated dynamicly to any group member * better return time of messages from the list (Listar shortened majordomo's response time from hours to minutes, Egroups takes usually only seconds) I can tell you I have been using their service for over 2 years now very happily. I don't mind even donating the monthly $5 it costs to keep the ads away. I don't get any spam through them either. what say you? vote with your fingers! add yourselves here to test it: http://www.egroups.com/group/iglu/ if we have a mass of over half the list (how many subscribers do we have, Ely?) move over, I think we can declare it official. any of the frequent posters wanting manager rights just has to ask me, this is how a community should work! Back to the original topic - There are some mailing lists with nntp interface. From the little I know - not all of them are filled with spam. Is it because of some brutal filtering methods , or very active list managers? or it never leaves one specific nntp server and doesn't get to nntp servers viewed by spammers... As for me personally - using no filters what so ever, I have only recived very few spam messages, and I don't exactly hide my email. But then again - I'm not a very active poster. I am, and believe me it hurts. I filter hard and mercilessly, and I still get 10-12 a day. so again, please check out: http://www.egroups.com/group/iglu/ we can set it up as a sublist of huji's but I think it will prevent us from using all the creative management features. -- Ira Abramov ; whois:IA58 ; www.scso.com ; all around Linux enthusiast "[In 'Doctor' mode], I spent a good ten minutes telling Emacs what I thought of it. (The response was, 'Perhaps you could try to be less abusive.')" (By Matt Welsh) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
Ira Abramov wrote: * spam protected web archives A list of Linux gurus, and nobody jumps to implement it? I mean, what is it all about? hiding of e-mail? a web interface to shoot an email message? * polls Err, have my own poll script in PHP (requires cookies for some vote validation - actually a feature - but it can be removed) I will open-source it :) * chat room for online meetings IRC. #linux-il as it was sometimes offered, and then, as I recall others told we already have #linux and said it's unnecessary. Ariel already keeps a #linux-il channel on EFNet, as far as I know. What's about eGroups? They offer a JAVA chat? Or their own IRC server? (joy) * calendar of events, and other cool features too many to list here Enough gurus here to code it. Should be a part of the newly designed site. I really wanna do it with PHP etc. I plan to do it. If I wasn't to study physics now, I'd probably be doing it. (damn, promises, promises...) * better return time of messages from the list (Listar shortened majordomo's response time from hours to minutes, Egroups takes usually only seconds) Now, why that happens? Is Ely's server too overloaded? How come the US-located (I guess) Egroups would have superior delivery time than ours? Egroups is probably overloaded while we can always set up a box nearly dedicated. I can tell you I have been using their service for over 2 years now very happily. I don't mind even donating the monthly $5 it costs to keep the ads away. I don't get any spam through them either. Is Linux-IL a big source of spam? Is it harvested? Any evidence? -- Best regards, Ilya Konstantinov a.k.a Toastie [http://toast.demon.co.il] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
well, we have #linux-il on DALNet that is much more active than the efnet channel. people actually come there asking for help and also getting answers. and there is no problem making/finding source for java chat that will be connected to this channel. Moran Zavdi -Original Message- From: Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ILUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: ùáú 08 éðåàø 2000 20:51 Subject: Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?) Ira Abramov wrote: * chat room for online meetings IRC. #linux-il as it was sometimes offered, and then, as I recall others told we already have #linux and said it's unnecessary. Ariel already keeps a #linux-il channel on EFNet, as far as I know. What's about eGroups? They offer a JAVA chat? Or their own IRC server? (joy) Best regards, Ilya Konstantinov a.k.a Toastie [http://toast.demon.co.il] ÿÿ To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
On Sat, Jan 08, 2000, Ilya Konstantinov wrote about "Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)": Ira Abramov wrote: * spam protected web archives A list of Linux gurus, and nobody jumps to implement it? I mean, what is it all about? hiding of e-mail? a web interface to shoot an email message? Last November I suggested that *all* emails in the mailing list archive are changed to something like "email@hidden". I was dismissed, saying that there are better methods (like turning emails into calls to a CGI which translates a strange number into your email and sends you a message) and that my method removes all emails from a message, not only the sender's, and that people can't answer the sender. Since nobody implemented any "better" method, how about implemeneting the very simple method I suggested (only for the archives, not for the list itself which will still have emails in it): sed 's/[a-zA-Z0-9_.-]*\@[a-zA-Z0-9_.-]*[a-zA-Z0-9_-]/email@hidden/g' in out However, protecting the archive isn't enough for protecting the list members: Spammers can register to mailing lists, get all the email from the list and harvest the emails in them. It's trivial to do :( Then it wouldn't even help removing the emails from the archive. The best approach would be to have a good filter using words in the message and blacklists: I'm so pleased with my filters that I stopped caring whether my email address gets harvested - less than 1% of the spam gets through them. I even post to usenet with my real address :) By the way, spammers can easily find addresses of mailing lists, and once they find one they can write a robot that, in 5 minutes, subscribes to a mailing list from a throw-away or fake account, post their spam - and repeat that for 10,000 mailing lists. I haven't seen this happening yet, but there HAVE been mailing-list bomb attacks: where someone registers another person to 1,000 mailing lists, and watch his server crash when all these mailing lists start sending in stuff... I don't see how we can protect ourselves against that :( * better return time of messages from the list (Listar shortened majordomo's response time from hours to minutes, Egroups takes usually only seconds) Now, why that happens? Is Ely's server too overloaded? How come the US-located (I guess) Egroups would have superior delivery time than ours? Egroups is probably overloaded while we can always set up a box nearly dedicated. Majordomo's and Sendmail's default setup does not multithread when sending messages, so the default setup doesn't take seconds to deliver everything. But it rarely takes more than a few minutes to deliver everything, as far as I noticed, so I don't see what the problem is. This mailing list isn't for real-time chat. -- Nadav Har'El| Saturday, Jan 8 2000, 2 Shevat 5760 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I have an open mind - it's just closed http://nadav.harel.org.il |for repairs. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
NHE Since nobody implemented any "better" method, how about NHE implemeneting the very simple method I suggested (only for the NHE archives, not for the list itself which will still have emails NHE in it): sed NHE 's/[a-zA-Z0-9_.-]*\@[a-zA-Z0-9_.-]*[a-zA-Z0-9_-]/email@hidden/g' NHE in out I suggest a better method for the paranoids among us, which won't kill addressed but would defeat address-harvesters - making @ be " at " and . be " dot ". So [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes nyh at math dot technion dot ac dot il. NHE However, protecting the archive isn't enough for protecting NHE the list members: Spammers can register to mailing lists, get Oh, yeah. They also could come to your home and beat you with rubber hose until you'll give them your address book and all mail archives. Come on. No spammer does this - too much effort for too little money. 99.9% of smapper use ready address lists, and remaning 0.01% use automatic crawlers. Nobody will make such a trouble to get some 100 addresses. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-3-9316425/\ JRRT LotR. http://sharat.co.il/frodo/ whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
I am afraid we _will_ have to pay the $5 for no advertisements if people like me are to use it. (they blink) Dorit = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
Are we discussing a mid-flight change of the whole modus operandi of a fairly active mailing list that will require a significant adjustment on the part of every subscriber? What bothers me is not so much a list vs. newsgroup choice (I use GNUS for both news and mail, so the linux-il folder looks no different to me than comp.os.linux.announce), but what I perceive (maybe erroneously) as a drive towards a more interactive, real-time environments, such as IRC, chat rooms, etc. Frankly, I don't really know where eGroups are in this zoo, I would just like to make a few general comments. Think about those who work in organizations that do not - and will not - allow the employees to use IRC or chat or ICQ or anything like that. Also consider that email is the least intrusive means of communication - it can be ignored until one has the time to read it and decide whether to reply to it. Newsgroups are in the same category, but IRC, real-time chat, or phone for that matter are not. If a significant share of the activity moves to those channels some of us will face a serious problem. Now, a chat room may be useful. A question is asked, and someone knows the answer, and invites the other guy to chat, taking the load off the list/group bandwidth. Disadvantages: no one else will see the answer, and it won't be archived, presumably. Alternatives: I can't believe the same cannot be achieved by personal email. It certainly sounds nice to have a variety of services in a common framework. This is a good argument indeed. I stress again that I would like to keep the main activity in the form of email and/or news postings, since I won't be able to keep up with anything more intrusive. Besides, what will happen when some poor sod who currently has a problem reading the unsubscribe instructions in the trailer gets stuck with any of a dozen even less familiar services? Will I get an email informing me about it? My other concern stems from the don't-fix-what-ain't-broken principle. There must be a *really* good reason for changing things. Let's see what has been mentioned so far: Ira, note that I removed your email address from here! ;-) * spam protected web archives I state again that I don't see any spam problem related to linux-il. Is there any evidence at all that email addresses are harvested from the archives, or that spam messages appear because of linux-il? Ira, you seem to be complaining the most, and it seems that you have no problem setting a special email address to subscribe and post to linux-il from. Can you do that, wait for some reasonable period of time (a fortnight?), and report the amount of spam you got at *that* address? Maybe you already have some hard numbers? For the record, I see no spam that I can trace to linux-il, almost 100% comes via TAU (I think I mentioned that before). * choice of reading online, in Email, full digests or header digests What don't we have? Header digests? Not a big deal, IMHO. * polls Is it so difficult to implement on the web site? * chat room for online meetings Covered above. * calendar of events, Not important either. I see nothing wrong with announcements on the list - what's so difficult about saving the mail or looking up the archive? How many events a month do we anticipate? Again, nothing the minimal amount of discipline on the part of the site maintainer can't handle (he can be emailed with the details - why do we need fancy solutions?). I suppose a normal person keeps a schedule of his/her own, and will consult that schedule rather than check various web sites over and over again. other cool features too many to list here Well, I don't know what you mean, but sounds like there are too many to make any single one critically important ;-). Let's hope the majority of the members learn how to unsubscribe on their own ;-). * remote management can be delegated dynamicly to any group member Is there a real need for that? The question carries no irony. Maybe there is a serious problem here, and I just don't feel it as a subscriber. * better return time of messages from the list (Listar shortened majordomo's response time from hours to minutes, Egroups takes usually only seconds) It might be important to those with loads of spare seconds on their hands. I cannot estimate how many of us do. I do agree it might be important, but given that a follow-up isn't likely to be typed and posted in less than a minute I don't think that a sub-minute list software response is really critical. For really highly active lists (I imagine there are a few in SV), where someone is likely to post a follow-up within seconds, this might be important. Please don't consider this as a vote against any change. I will certainly welcome improvements. I just thought I had to raise some issues that should be considered, and had not been raised before. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | BLOOMBERG L.P. (BFM) | [EMAIL PROTECTED] "... We work by wit, and not by witchcraft; And wit
Re: IGLU@eGroups (was: is there newsgroup for linux-il ?)
just some comments about various people's concerns: 1. never say "there are plenty people here that can implement..". this never led us anywhere. you think it can be done? do it and ell us when you have it ready. you have the right to talk about it, but realize that you won't get it done anywhere. 2. you are concerned with moving the contents to on-line chat etc? don't worry. enough people will stick to the email method, because, like you, they prefer this method. if some people want to use on-line chat for their interaction - let them do that, and don't impose on them the usage of _your_ prefered method of communications. and if _most_ people prefer on-line chat, who are you to stand in their way? 3. the point of routing email via the USA instead of via a local (israeli) point is quite valid - most ISPs have plenty of bandwidth to the IIX (israeli internet exchange), while they strugle for every free byte of bandwidth abroad. ira - can you comment on this issue, using real-life experience (e.g. do you know of another mailing list that is mostly israeli, that uses a USAian list archiver?). 4. having more features cannot hurt you, as long as those features are not forced on users (i.e. users can use one feature independently of using the rest of them). in time you'll be able to see which featuers actually get used, and which have died off. one example is the on-line forums people tried creating. they went on implementing them, and eventually (as far as i _heard_ on this list), only those that work with large forum providers - have survived. that's all i have to say (for now.) guy "For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
