RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
-Original Message- From: Boris Ratner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Now all customers suffer from this if their ISP got blocked by AOL. And they should. They should suffer for choosing an ISP that disrespects its own acceptable use policy, and gets itself into some kind of blackhole or another. What the customer must do is switch to an ISP that actually enforces its AUP and doesn't get its address blocks blackholed. This is the ONLY way IMHO to convince an ISP to change their ways. Once large customers start doing their business elsewhere because of the ISP's incompetence, they will think twice before deleting the next abuse report. -- Arik To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
So what is it I should do? And who is blacklisted, I or my ISP? (I am, as I stated earlier, on a private IP from an ADSL router - that does have a public IP - connected to an ISP. My box is a plain vanilla RH9.) Arie Folger On Tuesday 21 October 2003 03:59, Boris Ratner wrote: I happen to stumble across the AOL antispam policies several times all large Israeli (might be international as well) ISPs suffer from those. Arie Folger wrote: We discussed this matter in the past, that AOL decided no longer to accept mail from servers that relay mail freely or have open proxies. The funny thing is that I am on a private network, and should therefore not be visible to the outside world, definitely not as a mail server. So, am I right to conclude that this complaint of AOL's is directed towards my ISP? Or is it towards the ADSL router of ours? -- If an important person, out of humility, does not want to rely on [the Law, as applicable to his case], let him behave as an ascetic. However, permission was not granted to record this in a book, to rule this way for the future generations, and to be stringent of one's own accord, unless he shall bring clear proofs from the Talmud [to support his argument]. paraphrase of Rabbi Asher ben Ye'hiel, as quoted by Rabbi Yoel Sirkis, Ba'h, Yoreh De'ah 187:9, s.v. Umah shekatav. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
Quoting Arik Baratz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What the customer must do is switch to an ISP that actually enforces its AUP and doesn't get its address blocks blackholed. This is the ONLY way IMHO to convince an ISP to change their ways. Great. I don't know which ISPs AOL blocks, but I assume based on my own past spams that these include Internet Zahav, Netvision, 012, Actcom, and if I'm not mistaken, Barak. Now tell me which viable option can I have for an ISP in Israel that knows how to spell Linux, and is not a lying cheat (like, say, Aquanet). Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
AB And they should. They should suffer for choosing an ISP that AB disrespects its own acceptable use policy, and gets itself into AB some kind of blackhole or another. What the customer must do is Oh come on. It is a common knowledge that at least some of these relays are too quick to add whole netblocks and too slow to explain why they did that or how to make this not happen again. And the ISP couldn't care less what some freak out there thinks about its policies - its responcibility is its own paying clients and not convinvcing some trigger-happy sysadmin jumping out of his pants to be BOFH-like and blacklist whatever possible without too much investigation. It is impossible to prevent sending email from a customer of an ISP to any address on the internet - be the mail contents UCE or not. It is not possible for the ISP to know if the content of the message is UCE or not. So what the hell you want them to do? Cut their own throats by terminating contracts with paying customers just because some obsucre email address claiming to be sysadmin demands that? This all spam blocking fun have gotten by far out of proportion nowdays. Every week, and later - almost every other day I hear from legitimate users having their legitimate emails blocked because of some spamblocking usually from third-party relay lists that answer along the line of somebody from your country once sent spam, so we blocked the whole class A - if you want to send email again, you better choose another country to live or piss off. Do you propose for these users to start hopping ISPs (on the way convincing all relatives and acquaintances to change their address books) in hope they will find one that would satisfy the spamblockers? Do you really think this is the solution for anything? For the spammer to change ISP is a matter of one configuration setting in his spam machine. For the legitimate Joe User is like moving to another city. So who do you want to punish? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-50-624945/\ JRRT LotR. whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
-Original Message- From: Herouth Maoz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Great. I don't know which ISPs AOL blocks, but I assume based on my own past spams that these include Internet Zahav, Netvision, 012, Actcom, and if I'm not mistaken, Barak. Now tell me which viable option can I have for an ISP in Israel that knows how to spell Linux, and is not a lying cheat (like, say, Aquanet). Well, you can start by moving to a different ISP, explaining them why you did. Then you should choose the one with the best record... If none of them is perfect, choose the least worse. -- Arik To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
Arik Baratz wrote: -Original Message- From: Herouth Maoz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Great. I don't know which ISPs AOL blocks, but I assume based on my own past spams that these include Internet Zahav, Netvision, 012, Actcom, and if I'm not mistaken, Barak. Now tell me which viable option can I have for an ISP in Israel that knows how to spell Linux, and is not a lying cheat (like, say, Aquanet). Well, you can start by moving to a different ISP, explaining them why you did. Then you should choose the one with the best record... If none of them is perfect, choose the least worse. Yes, and don't forget to put an elephant at the end to make sure the algorithm will terminate. :-) --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
-Original Message- From: Stanislav Malyshev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] AB And they should. They should suffer for choosing an ISP that AB disrespects its own acceptable use policy, and gets itself into AB some kind of blackhole or another. What the customer must do is Oh come on. It is a common knowledge that at least some of these relays are too quick to add whole netblocks and too slow to explain why they did that or how to make this not happen again. And the ISP couldn't care less what some freak out there thinks about its policies - its responcibility is its own paying clients and not convinvcing some trigger-happy sysadmin jumping out of his pants to be BOFH-like and blacklist whatever possible without too much investigation. As I see it, depending on who you are and how important it is for your messages to get 'there'. If you're a corporate and contact mostly other corporates, mostly you don't care. I know I don't. If someone from my company wants to send mail to someone with an RBL that doesn't let my static IP (I don't use the IP relay, heavens forbid) send him mail - I'm fine with that. The person on the other side will have to find a way to accept this mail message, because it's also his priority to do business with us. If you're a private person, or contact mostly private people, that's damn annoying. In the rare occasions I have encountered it I opted to use a different provider to send a message telling that person that they are using an RBL and he should do something about it. Personally I use a BezeqInt ISDN line to send and receive email, and it seems like this IP range is pretty much okay. I had it blocked once, and the BezeqInt guys went out of their way to un-block it. But BezeqInt is guilty of spamming me themselves, for which I did never forgive them. I have stopped buying new services from them and I am slowly switching. There should really be an Israeli ISP monitoring site, which will score ISPs based on their non-blackholeness, but I am not the one who will set it up so I have no right to speak about it. You're right about RBL admins that are too trigger happy, but I never encountered a case when I asked to be removed (when I had my own address range) and not removed within a few days. Yes, some ignoramus has misconfigured a mail server on my range, and I picked up the pieces. And regarding the ISP's responsibility for the customer - the quick BezeqInt reaction came after I have told them that since I use their network to send email, and it is important to me that the email gets there, I hold them responsible for any blackholing of their range and will switch if I can't send my email decently from my equipment. -- Arik To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
Well, you can start by moving to a different ISP, explaining them why you did. Then you should choose the one with the best record... If none of them is perfect, choose the least worse. Yes, and don't forget to put an elephant at the end to make sure the algorithm will terminate. Do you want to open the Israeli ISP-monitoring site? You can rate the ISPs based on the precentage of their address ranges that are black-holed. The position is yours if you accept :-) -- Arik To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
Actually, there is a company that does Israeli ISP rating. Their metrics are more performance and reliability oriented, but I don't see why they can't add block-IPs as a metric, at least in principle http://www.marnetics.com/ISPrating.asp Disclaimer: I have no interest, commercial or otherwise in this company. I have never used their service, and have no idea regarding the quality of their data, or lack of thereof. Cheers, Rony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Arik Baratz Sent: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email -Original Message- From: Stanislav Malyshev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] AB And they should. They should suffer for choosing an ISP that AB disrespects its own acceptable use policy, and gets itself into AB some kind of blackhole or another. What the customer must do is Oh come on. It is a common knowledge that at least some of these relays are too quick to add whole netblocks and too slow to explain why they did that or how to make this not happen again. And the ISP couldn't care less what some freak out there thinks about its policies - its responcibility is its own paying clients and not convinvcing some trigger-happy sysadmin jumping out of his pants to be BOFH-like and blacklist whatever possible without too much investigation. As I see it, depending on who you are and how important it is for your messages to get 'there'. If you're a corporate and contact mostly other corporates, mostly you don't care. I know I don't. If someone from my company wants to send mail to someone with an RBL that doesn't let my static IP (I don't use the IP relay, heavens forbid) send him mail - I'm fine with that. The person on the other side will have to find a way to accept this mail message, because it's also his priority to do business with us. If you're a private person, or contact mostly private people, that's damn annoying. In the rare occasions I have encountered it I opted to use a different provider to send a message telling that person that they are using an RBL and he should do something about it. Personally I use a BezeqInt ISDN line to send and receive email, and it seems like this IP range is pretty much okay. I had it blocked once, and the BezeqInt guys went out of their way to un-block it. But BezeqInt is guilty of spamming me themselves, for which I did never forgive them. I have stopped buying new services from them and I am slowly switching. There should really be an Israeli ISP monitoring site, which will score ISPs based on their non-blackholeness, but I am not the one who will set it up so I have no right to speak about it. You're right about RBL admins that are too trigger happy, but I never encountered a case when I asked to be removed (when I had my own address range) and not removed within a few days. Yes, some ignoramus has misconfigured a mail server on my range, and I picked up the pieces. And regarding the ISP's responsibility for the customer - the quick BezeqInt reaction came after I have told them that since I use their network to send email, and it is important to me that the email gets there, I hold them responsible for any blackholing of their range and will switch if I can't send my email decently from my equipment. -- Arik == To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
Hi, I happen to stumble across the AOL antispam policies several times all large Israeli (might be international as well) ISPs suffer from those. AOL have a self-developed heuristic anti-spam mechanism. This program finds out who is the owner of the IP block that the spam message is sent from and sends a complaint to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for every spam message recieved. If the owner of the IP block passed a certain level of spam - AOL just block all IP addresses owned by that entity. AOL done that because ISPs where saying We don't care if one of our clients spams AOL users. Now all customers suffer from this if their ISP got blocked by AOL. regards Boris. Arie Folger wrote: Hi, We discussed this matter in the past, that AOL decided no longer to accept mail from servers that relay mail freely or have open proxies. The funny thing is that I am on a private network, and should therefore not be visible to the outside world, definitely not as a mail server. So, am I right to conclude that this complaint of AOL's is directed towards my ISP? Or is it towards the ADSL router of ours? Also, I mailed them a complaint letter why they shouldn't maintain such a policy, but they didn't even bother to reply. Arie Folger = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email
On Thu, Jun 12, 2003, Arie Folger wrote about AOL doesn't accept mail - free relaying of email: to the outside world, definitely not as a mail server. So, am I right to conclude that this complaint of AOL's is directed towards my ISP? Or is it towards the ADSL router of ours? We're missing a lot of information. How do you normally send email? Do you send all the outgoing mail to your ISP's mail server, or do you send mail directly from the ADSL-connected machine? If you use your ISP's mail server for outgoing mail, what server is this? Looking at your post, I see you sent it through 212.40.5.186, the mail server of some Swiss ISP (?!). This mail server is not on any blacklist that I know of, so I don't understand where your problem comes from. So to try to help you, I'd need to see AOL's bounce, and an example of the full headers of your outgoing mail. Also, I mailed them a complaint letter why they shouldn't maintain such a policy, but they didn't even bother to reply. For people like me, who get 5-10 times more spam than important email in a day, not dealing with spam is not an option. Certainly it would have been better if every user had the option of how to deal with spam instead of the ISP defining ISP-wide blocks, but frankly AOL's users have the right to switch ISP if the blocking bothers them. -- Nadav Har'El| Thursday, Jun 12 2003, 12 Sivan 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Drink varnish and you'll get a lovely http://nadav.harel.org.il |finish. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
