[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
On Jul 3, 2011, at 1:12 AM, howard posner wrote: As far as I can follow it (and following it isn't easy) this entire discussion about self-expression suffers from terminal vagueness. What exactly are we talking about?...A discussion of this sort really needs carefully defined terms or it becomes, literally, nonsense. I think this definition of intellectuals is relevant here: intellectuals are people who study what other people do naturally. Having said that I have to say that in a general public sense, music is used as an overlay, designed to hide embarrassing emotions from view, in favor of celebrating some socially-acceptible form of public expression, as in all forms of ceremonial music. The term self expression can refer to the phenomenon of taking a bunch of notes and makng music out of them. Some musicians can do that, and some can't. Some have no concept of that: some are simply disinterested in it. I've sat through many concerts, wondering all the way to the end of a performance, when the music was going to start. The first time I ever really heard music come out of my lute was the first time I ever sat down for a lesson with Paul O'Dette back in the day. He wanted to demonstrate something, and took my student lute and started playing it. Out of that crappy old cheap lute came real music! So, in that sense, self-expression is the making of something intangible and unquantifiable out of tangible and quantifiable inanimate matter. I do not believe that art is merely a by-product of the craft of noteplaying. To me, music is the art of noteplaying. And yes, for its own sake. D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
Howard, That's BS, because you should know that a goodly portion of the Mass nicely predates the events in question, having been composed previously as an oratorio Davidde Penitente. And I distinctly recall a famous musicologist referring to the choice of c-minor as a slap in the face of excclesiastical taste. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 1:12 AM Subject: [LUTE] Self-expression ? On Jul 2, 2011, at 7:01 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: In fact a public expression of feelings through the choice of c-minor for his Great Mass did cost Mozart his job in Salzburg. What cost Mozart his job in Salzburg was that he didn't want it. He insisted that he be released, and it took months to finally settle the issue, with the Archbishop's steward, Count Arco, urging him to stay before famously kicking him out of the room in exasperation in May 1781. The C minor Mass dates from two years later (such parts of it as managed to finish were performed during a visit to Salzburg in 1783), and I'm not aware that anyone remarked on the choice of key at the time. However _private_ expression was practiced earlier, from mid17th century on. As far as I can follow it (and following it isn't easy) this entire discussion about self-expression suffers from terminal vagueness. What exactly are we talking about? Do we mean specifically Composer X intending that the listener interpret the music as an expression of what Composer X is feeling? Or that Composer X intends to express any kind of personal, subjective feeling? Or are we talking about intensity of expression? Are Gesualdo madrigals self expressive? Is self expression Berlioz mirroring his infatuation with Harriet Smithson in the Symphonie Fantastique? Beethoven expressing his love of the country in the Pastorale? (and if so, what about Vivaldi in La Primavera?) A discussion of this sort really needs carefully defined terms or it becomes, literally, nonsense. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
That's Creativity, not Self-Expression. RT From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net The term self expression can refer to the phenomenon of taking a bunch of notes and makng music out of them. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's Creativity, not Self-Expression. You remind me of those music students who say, I don't want to learn music, I just want to learn to play the... (fill in the instrument of your choice). If one is capable of creativity, then surely that becomes the form one's self-expression will take. If one is incapable of it, then this discussion is meaningless. Look at it this way: if one suppresses one's creativity, in the name of some personal perception of history or possibly out of fear of public opinion, does one not also supress one's own emotional expression? D RT From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net The term self expression can refer to the phenomenon of taking a bunch of notes and makng music out of them. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
No, these are 2 entirely unrelated insticts, and ideally they produce great results, when combined in the same individual. That is not so common. A powerful instinct for self expression, unsupported by that of creativity may produce something like this Russian composer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_sSVwKQoA RT - Original Message - From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 9:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Self-expression ? On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That's Creativity, not Self-Expression. You remind me of those music students who say, I don't want to learn music, I just want to learn to play the... (fill in the instrument of your choice). If one is capable of creativity, then surely that becomes the form one's self-expression will take. If one is incapable of it, then this discussion is meaningless. Look at it this way: if one suppresses one's creativity, in the name of some personal perception of history or possibly out of fear of public opinion, does one not also supress one's own emotional expression? D RT From: David R d_lu...@comcast.net The term self expression can refer to the phenomenon of taking a bunch of notes and makng music out of them. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: No, these are 2 entirely unrelated insticts, and ideally they produce great results, when combined in the same individual. That is not so common. Ever wonder why it's not so common? A powerful instinct for self expression, unsupported by that of creativity may produce something like this Russian composer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_sSVwKQoA So a century from now, the biggest HIP challenge to someone wanting to recreate this, would be the quest for the right kind of period styrofoam. D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
On Jul 3, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: No, these are 2 entirely unrelated insticts, and ideally they produce great results, when combined in the same individual. That is not so common. Ever wonder why it's not so common? No. This is now it should be. RT A powerful instinct for self expression, unsupported by that of creativity may produce something like this Russian composer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_sSVwKQoA So a century from now, the biggest HIP challenge to someone wanting to recreate this, would be the quest for the right kind of period styrofoam. D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
On Jul 3, 2011, at 6:11 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Howard, That's BS, because you should know that a goodly portion of the Mass nicely predates the events in question, having been composed previously as an oratorio Davidde Penitente. You have it backwards: the oratorio Davidde Penitente,K. 469, is a contrafactum of parts of the C minor Mass. Mozart put the oratorio together to meet a commission from the Wiener Tonkünstler-Societät in 1785, two years after he performed what he'd finished of the Mass. And I distinctly recall a famous musicologist referring to the choice of c-minor as a slap in the face of excclesiastical taste. I have no doubt that a musicologist would say something like that, and absolutely no doubt that it was unsupported by any evidence that any ecclesiastic in the 1780's said anything about having his face slapped. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com TOn Jul 2, 2011, at 7:01 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: In fact a public expression of feelings through the choice of c-minor for his Great Mass did cost Mozart his job in Salzburg. What cost Mozart his job in Salzburg was that he didn't want it. He insisted that he be released, and it took months to finally settle the issue, with the Archbishop's steward, Count Arco, urging him to stay before famously kicking him out of the room in exasperation in May 1781. The C minor Mass dates from two years later (such parts of it as managed to finish were performed during a visit to Salzburg in 1783), and I'm not aware that anyone remarked on the choice of key at the time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
That may very well be so, but a Mass does not have to complete to be a full-blown slap in the face of the ecclesiastical taste. And eccessive melancholy has always been viewed with suspicion by the authorities. Still is. RT From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Howard, That's BS, because you should know that a goodly portion of the Mass nicely predates the events in question, having been composed previously as an oratorio Davidde Penitente. You have it backwards: the oratorio Davidde Penitente,K. 469, is a contrafactum of parts of the C minor Mass. Mozart put the oratorio together to meet a commission from the Wiener Tonkünstler-Societät in 1785, two years after he performed what he'd finished of the Mass. And I distinctly recall a famous musicologist referring to the choice of c-minor as a slap in the face of excclesiastical taste. I have no doubt that a musicologist would say something like that, and absolutely no doubt that it was unsupported by any evidence that any ecclesiastic in the 1780's said anything about having his face slapped. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com TOn Jul 2, 2011, at 7:01 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: In fact a public expression of feelings through the choice of c-minor for his Great Mass did cost Mozart his job in Salzburg. What cost Mozart his job in Salzburg was that he didn't want it. He insisted that he be released, and it took months to finally settle the issue, with the Archbishop's steward, Count Arco, urging him to stay before famously kicking him out of the room in exasperation in May 1781. The C minor Mass dates from two years later (such parts of it as managed to finish were performed during a visit to Salzburg in 1783), and I'm not aware that anyone remarked on the choice of key at the time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Self-expression ?
On Jul 3, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: That may very well be so, but a Mass does not have to complete to be a full-blown slap in the face of the ecclesiastical taste. And eccessive melancholy has always been viewed with suspicion by the authorities. Still is. I no longer know what point you're trying to make. I think we've settled that the C minor Mass had nothing to do with Mozart's leaving the service of the Prince-Archbishop of Salzburg, and that there's no evidence that any particular 18th-century churchman had his face slapped by the Mass or Davidde Penitente. And yes, a Mass must be complete to be a full-blown slap in the face. An incomplete mass can be only a half-blown slap, or perhaps a slap that doesn't reach the face and hits the collar bone. If it's a particularly funny mass, it's a knee-slapper. I have a tough time believing that some cleric would know or care what key a mass movement was in. Yes, there might have been a bishop here and there with perfect pitch, or the occasional cardinal who liked to look over the musician's parts, but on the whole it must have been a non-issue. Only the Kyrie of the C minor Mass is actually in C minor, BTW (at least that's true of the Maunder edition); the Gloria and Sanctus are in blazing C major. I don't know what authorities are suspicious of excessive melancholy, and would be curious to know what evidence you have that this has always been the case. But maybe this is getting a bit OT, unlike such matters as gynecology. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
