[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. Ah ha! says the HIP Police Person, But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon... (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa Di Dadi, sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) ...the SOURCES! Ahh... the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're supposed to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld [1]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Good points and very well said, Chris. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa Di Dadi Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Well-said, indeed! Thank you, Chris, for your thoughtful posts. Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke [chriswi...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. Ah ha! says the HIP Police Person, But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon... (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa Di Dadi, sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) ...the SOURCES! Ahh... the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're supposed to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld [1]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Bruce Haines is a must read regarding this issue (romantic, modern and the Hip approach). 2013/12/19 Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. Ah ha! says the HIP Police Person, But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon... (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa Di Dadi, sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) ...the SOURCES! Ahh... the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're supposed to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [2]www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski [3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld [1][4]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[6]dwinh...@lmi.net 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 3. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
. . . quasi-orgasmic relish is worthy of a tittering *tee-hee*. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. Ah ha! says the HIP Police Person, But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon... (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa Di Dadi, sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) ...the SOURCES! Ahh... the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're supposed to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld [1]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
So your heart belongs to di Dadi (Cole Porter, 1938) On 12/19/2013 6:22 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa Di Dadi Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
OUCH! On 12/19/13 11:25 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: So your heart belongs to di Dadi (Cole Porter, 1938) On 12/19/2013 6:22 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa Di Dadi Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
So what are we left with? Personal judgements on what is and what is not interesting music. Or good music, or correct music, or aurally thought music. Harnoncourt wrote it some 40 years ago: HIP is not about doing music as it was done centuries ago but about making lively music for today's listeners. Treatises and other documents help to avoid mistakes which render long-gone music dull, like playing Bach without accents. Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 19.12.2013, às 11:27, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com escreveu: This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. Ah ha! says the HIP Police Person, But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon... (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa Di Dadi, sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) ...the SOURCES! Ahh... the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're supposed to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld [1]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire... I think Jimi Hendrix also has a lot to do with the lute - his characteristic rythmic flamboyance is directly associated to the liberties taken in lute performance, were musicians are free from dogmas imposed by some phonographic industry product player. Or thus I understand it, in my very personal interpretation of the lute. And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? And so it goes... Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On 19 Dec, 2013, at 1:22 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote: And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? And so it goes... i'd say the Arab lute is far more relevant to this list than Segovia is. τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Hi, The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under his videos). I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested Segovia's incompetence as a player. and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire… No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says: I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum No, but seriously, people were discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this is my reply to that part of the thread. Sorry if you find any problem in it. And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael), but I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised so much. Regards Jaroslaw Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Segovia was not incompetent, he was simply unmusical. He wasn't alone in that, among the stars of his day. Pablo Casals also comes to mind, and not a few violinists. RT On 12/18/2013 2:10 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Hi, The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under his videos). I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested Segovia's incompetence as a player. and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire… No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says: I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum No, but seriously, people were discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this is my reply to that part of the thread. Sorry if you find any problem in it. And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael), but I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised so much. Regards Jaroslaw Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Hi Roman, Segovia was not incompetent, he was simply unmusical. He wasn't alone in that, among the stars of his day. Pablo Casals also comes to mind, and not a few violinists. RT Hmmm… we enter a very subjective territory here. Someone called unmusical for one may seem epitome of musicality for another. Segovia is not in my liking either, but many people appreciate his romantic, singing tone quality which is very unique nowadays. Best Jaroslaw On 12/18/2013 2:10 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Hi, The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under his videos). I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested Segovia's incompetence as a player. and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire… No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says: I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum No, but seriously, people were discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this is my reply to that part of the thread. Sorry if you find any problem in it. And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael), but I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised so much. Regards Jaroslaw Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
In the latest ad from ArkivMusic i noticed advertised the Complete RCA Album Collection of Julian Bream. Cost is $99.99 and it includes 40 CDs and 2 DVDs, for anyone interested. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
I'm not a guitarist, but I am a cellist. I do wonder what is meant here about both Segovia and Casals being unmusical, though perhaps this lute forum has wandered far enough afield already. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? No doubt Mel Neusidler found papa Hans outdated. Maybe Downland thought he was outdated. Nicolas Vallet thought they were all outdated. (Of course S.L. Weiss isn't outdated!) Kind of like a Revolutionary War re-enactor scorning the martial skills and accomplishments of General Eisenhower in WWII as- outdated. Dan The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? On 12/18/2013 9:22 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote: Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire... I think Jimi Hendrix also has a lot to do with the lute - his characteristic rythmic flamboyance is directly associated to the liberties taken in lute performance, were musicians are free from dogmas imposed by some phonographic industry product player. Or thus I understand it, in my very personal interpretation of the lute. And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? And so it goes... Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
If you play enough Hagen, S.L W. starts to sound outdated. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Winheld Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 4:47 PM To: erne...@aquila.mus.br; Jarosław Lipski Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? No doubt Mel Neusidler found papa Hans outdated. Maybe Downland thought he was outdated. Nicolas Vallet thought they were all outdated. (Of course S.L. Weiss isn't outdated!) Kind of like a Revolutionary War re-enactor scorning the martial skills and accomplishments of General Eisenhower in WWII as- outdated. Dan The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even think of. Is it somehow related to the lute? On 12/18/2013 9:22 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote: Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be discussed here? Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the most extended lute repertoire... I think Jimi Hendrix also has a lot to do with the lute - his characteristic rythmic flamboyance is directly associated to the liberties taken in lute performance, were musicians are free from dogmas imposed by some phonographic industry product player. Or thus I understand it, in my very personal interpretation of the lute. And the arab / turkish / syrian lutes in use nowadays? And so it goes... Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu: Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching evolved. BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA Enjoy Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08: How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art. Respectfully, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. In Joel Cohen's Reprise (1985), a book about the early music revival that is quickly becoming a historical document in its own right, he tells of a young French tenor who encountered his former voice teacher at the Paris Conservatoire and told her that he just sang a Machaut mass in concert. She got upset and said, How many times times must I tell you? There's no future in that crazy modern music! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Wiadomość napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) outdated? Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
