[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Arto Wikla]

Why not. Send me some example. :-)

Arto

On 01/11/14 17:32, Anton Höger wrote:

Hi,

is there anybody who plays Chitarrone?

I would like to test someone a Chitarrone intavolation?

Thx

Anton



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[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[William Samson]

   Having reflected on what I said below, it needs to be said that
   instruments - especially extended neck ones, are very expensive.  No
   musician can possibly afford to have one of everything - particularly
   as there are instruments whose repertoire can be counted on the fingers
   of one hand.  So no blame to musicians who choose to buy mainstream
   instruments.

   I was wondering if there is some kind of 'lending library' or 'hire
   store' anywhere with some of these more obscure types of instrument,
   that a musician could borrow when needed?  I know there is informal
   lending of instruments between musicians so they can be used in gigs
   that need them, but that's a bit hit-or-miss.  Maybe something for the
   lute societies to consider?  I know the Lute Society in the UK rents
   out lutes - mostly to people who are saving to buy their own, but a
   collection of more unusual ones for short-term loan would be another
   thing.

   Thoughts?

   Bill
   From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2012, 19:46
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 I'm afraid you are correct, David.  Of course Bob Spencer isn't to
 blame - he just wrote up what was known at the time.  The trouble is
 that much of what is now known (and much of what was known in
   Spencer's
 time too) hasn't been put into practice by musicians.  How
 many performances using the 'English' theorbo, with stepped nuts and
 double courses in the diapasons, have we heard?  And yet the late
   17th
 century was a very rich time in the development of music and
 instruments.  According to Mace this theorbo sometimes had only the
   top
 course tuned down an octave - There aren't many theorboes tuned like
 that these days.
 There's still plenty of fallow ground for players of plucked
 instruments who are prepared to stray from the mainstream and for
 researchers to back them up.
 Bill
 From: David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net
 To: lute [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2012, 18:28
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 Research into the Chitarrone stopped after the publication of the
   famous article by Spencer, et al. This had the astonishing effect
   of
   erasing, removing and deleting the Chitarrone from the early music
   performance revival. Collateral effects include the sidelining of
   the
   many other types of extended neck instruments that were developed
   in
   the early 17th century. Renewed interest into the research of this
 and
   other instruments will yield clues as to the specific meanings of
   the
   contemporaneous terms as well as hopefully renew interest in
   playing
   the instruments.
   Erasing instruments is not new; the dulcian was completely erased
   for
   decades before one was discovered with an identifying label in a
 sunken
   pirate ship. Now people are playing it again.
   --- On Tue, 10/16/12, Bruno Correia [1][3]bruno.l...@gmail.com
   wrote:
 From: Bruno Correia [2][4]bruno.l...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone
 To: List LUTELIST [3][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 6:11 PM
   The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
   The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other
   early
   writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
   Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say
   it
   simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
 the
   first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
 just
   as
   the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
 technique.
   The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
 guitar
   writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
 campanellas
   efect e so on...
   --
   Bruno Correia
   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1][4][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. [5][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[8]bruno.l...@gmail.com
 2. mailto:[9]bruno.l...@gmail.com
 3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 5. [12]http

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[David Tayler]

Research into the Chitarrone stopped after the publication of the
   famous article by Spencer, et al. This had the astonishing effect of
   erasing, removing and deleting the Chitarrone from the early music
   performance revival. Collateral effects include the sidelining of the
   many other types of extended neck instruments that were developed in
   the early 17th century. Renewed interest into the research of this and
   other instruments will yield clues as to the specific meanings of the
   contemporaneous terms as well as hopefully renew interest in playing
   the instruments.
   Erasing instruments is not new; the dulcian was completely erased for
   decades before one was discovered with an identifying label in a sunken
   pirate ship. Now people are playing it again.
   --- On Tue, 10/16/12, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone
 To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 6:11 PM

  The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
  The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
  (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
  particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
  writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
  Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
  simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
  first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just
   as
  the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
  The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
  writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
  efect e so on...
  --
  Bruno Correia
  Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
  historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
  Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
  Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
  --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

Actually this original message was followed by an extended discussion.   The 
newest seminal study at least of the etymology of the term chitarrone is


R. Meucci, 'Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone' - una nuova 
interpretazione', in  Enrico Radesca di Foggia e il suo tempo (atti del 
Convegno di studi, Foggia, 7-8 Aprile 2000), ed. Francesca Seller (Lucca, 
LIM, 2001), pp.37-57




Monica



- Original Message - 


From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:28 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone



   Research into the Chitarrone stopped after the publication of the
  famous article by Spencer, et al. This had the astonishing effect of
  erasing, removing and deleting the Chitarrone from the early music
  performance revival. Collateral effects include the sidelining of the
  many other types of extended neck instruments that were developed in
  the early 17th century. Renewed interest into the research of this and
  other instruments will yield clues as to the specific meanings of the
  contemporaneous terms as well as hopefully renew interest in playing
  the instruments.
  Erasing instruments is not new; the dulcian was completely erased for
  decades before one was discovered with an identifying label in a sunken
  pirate ship. Now people are playing it again.
  --- On Tue, 10/16/12, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone
To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 6:11 PM

 The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
 The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
 (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
 particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
 writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
 Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
 simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
 first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just
  as
 the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
 The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
 writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
 efect e so on...
 --
 Bruno Correia
 Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
 historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
 Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
 Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
 --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Roland Hayes]

Fertile ground?  r  

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
William Samson
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 3:47 PM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

   I'm afraid you are correct, David.  Of course Bob Spencer isn't to
   blame - he just wrote up what was known at the time.  The trouble is
   that much of what is now known (and much of what was known in Spencer's
   time too) hasn't been put into practice by musicians.  How
   many performances using the 'English' theorbo, with stepped nuts and
   double courses in the diapasons, have we heard?  And yet the late 17th
   century was a very rich time in the development of music and
   instruments.  According to Mace this theorbo sometimes had only the top
   course tuned down an octave - There aren't many theorboes tuned like
   that these days.

   There's still plenty of fallow ground for players of plucked
   instruments who are prepared to stray from the mainstream and for
   researchers to back them up.

   Bill
   From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
   To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2012, 18:28
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Research into the Chitarrone stopped after the publication of the
 famous article by Spencer, et al. This had the astonishing effect of
 erasing, removing and deleting the Chitarrone from the early music
 performance revival. Collateral effects include the sidelining of the
 many other types of extended neck instruments that were developed in
 the early 17th century. Renewed interest into the research of this
   and
 other instruments will yield clues as to the specific meanings of the
 contemporaneous terms as well as hopefully renew interest in playing
 the instruments.
 Erasing instruments is not new; the dulcian was completely erased for
 decades before one was discovered with an identifying label in a
   sunken
 pirate ship. Now people are playing it again.
 --- On Tue, 10/16/12, Bruno Correia [1]bruno.l...@gmail.com wrote:
   From: Bruno Correia [2]bruno.l...@gmail.com
   Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone
   To: List LUTELIST [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 6:11 PM
 The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
 The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
 (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
 particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
 writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
 Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
 simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
   the
 first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
   just
 as
 the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
   technique.
 The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
   guitar
 writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
   campanellas
 efect e so on...
 --
 Bruno Correia
 Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
 historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
 Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
 Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Ed Durbrow]

0

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[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Stuart,

   I'd argue that many of these are 'lutes', such as mandores, some
   gitterns, theorbos, chitarroni, archlutes, mandoras/gallichons,
   colasciones, mandolins/mandolas, etc. In short, instruments developed
   directly from the same general platonic 'lute' form.

   The big difference, and obvious to all, is between the waisted guitar
   family and the lute family. And so we come full circle.
   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 21:38

  mandolins in many different forms, mandores, gitterns, some English
  guitars, mandora/gallichons, colascione, some 18th century French
  cistres, (further afield: things like Ukrainian torban, lute shaped
  hurdy-gurdies)
  Stuart
  On 17 October 2012 21:05, Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
  Such as ?   .
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: [2]WALSH STUART
  To: [3]Monica Hall
  Cc: [4]Lutelist
  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
Stuart
  On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [5][2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
   gittern/mandore.
  When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped
   body.   It
depends what you mean by separate traditions...
Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
with
  Meucci?
  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
you. As
  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
large
  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
   chitarrone
(he
  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
gittern/mandore).
  Stuart
  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
   [1][6][3]tio...@gmail.com
wrote:
If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
Chitarrone here:
[2][7][4]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
The first chapter is about ethimology.
Diego
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at

   [3][8][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
References
  1. mailto:[9][6]tio...@gmail.com
  2. [10][7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  3. [11][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  2. mailto:[10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  3. mailto:[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  4. mailto:[12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  5. mailto:[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  6. mailto:[14]tio...@gmail.com
  7. [15]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  8. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  9. mailto:[17]tio...@gmail.com
 10. [18]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 11. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
  15. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
  18. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

Nobody has yet mentioned the colascione, nor the bandurria and the vandola.

Presumably they qualify for inclusion.

I'm not sure whether it is helpful to go further afield.   Let's stick to 
the 16th and 17th centuries.


Monica
- Original Message - 
From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com

To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:38 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone



  mandolins in many different forms, mandores, gitterns, some English
  guitars, mandora/gallichons, colascione, some 18th century French
  cistres, (further afield: things like Ukrainian torban, lute shaped
  hurdy-gurdies)
  Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 21:05, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

  Such as ?   .

  Monica

  - Original Message -

  From: [2]WALSH STUART

  To: [3]Monica Hall

  Cc: [4]Lutelist

  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM

  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
  When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
depends what you mean by separate traditions...
Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
with
  Meucci?
  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
you. As
  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
large
  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
(he
  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
gittern/mandore).
  Stuart
  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][6]tio...@gmail.com
wrote:
If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
Chitarrone here:
[2][7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
The first chapter is about ethimology.
Diego
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
[3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
References
  1. mailto:[9]tio...@gmail.com
  2. [10]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  3. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  6. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  9. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
 10. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Eugene,

   I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
   classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
   prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
   presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been revised
   since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
   early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
   same for present day organological research.

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

   I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
   neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
   similar parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims
   of human creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with
   many structurally different things being tuned identically and many
   functionally different things with similar construction carrying the
   name.  This case is not unique.
   General taxonomy of musical instruments has been around for a great
   long time (as organology), there are even whole scholarly societies
   committed to it (e.g., [1]http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However,
   such systems require a great many more judgment calls by their
   developers than biological systematics.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of William Samson
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:41 PM
   To: Lex van Sante; lute mailing list list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if
   it's
  feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
  particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
  that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
  different kinds of orchid, for example?
  I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too
   old
  to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.
  Bill
  From: Lex van Sante [4]lvansa...@gmail.com
  To: lute mailing list list [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
  Lex
  Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
Such as ?  .
  
  
  
Monica
  
- Original Message -
  
From: [1]WALSH STUART
  
To: [2]Monica Hall
  
Cc: [3]Lutelist
  
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
  
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  
  Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
  Stuart
  
On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall
   [4][1][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  wrote:
  
  Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
  gittern/mandore.
When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
  large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
  It
  depends what you mean by separate traditions...
  Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
  
Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in
   agreement
  with
Meucci?
Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are
   from
  you. As
I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
  large
lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
  chitarrone
  (he
is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
  gittern/mandore).
Stuart
On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
  [1][5][2][7]tio...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
  Chitarrone here:
  [2][6][3][8]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  The first chapter is about ethimology.
  Diego
  
To get on or off this list see list information at
  
  [3][7][4][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
  References
1. mailto:[8][5][10]tio...@gmail.com
2. [9][6][11]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
3.
   [10][7][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  
--
  
   References
  
1. mailto:[8][13]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:[9][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:[10][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[11][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Denys,

   Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views.
   Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what Bob
   wrote is still widely agreed upon today.

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com wrote:

 From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32

   Dear Roman,
   I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to
   see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
   written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
   to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
   things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
   outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
   remembered with gratitude and respect by many.
   Best wishes,
   Denys
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
   Of Roman Turovsky
   Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
   To: R. Mattes
   Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Thanks for this!
   The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses
   in
   guitar tuning (with whatever names),
   the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the
   perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
   I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived,
   well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
   aristocratic amateurism.
   RT
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[willsamson]

I would guess a key could be devised for existing instruments but anyone with a 
knowledge of the key could deliberately construct a new instrument that didn't 
fit in with the taxonomy.
It shouldn't be too hard to create a key for mainstream instruments but of 
course there have always been slightly oddball ones out there as a glance at 
the iconography makes clear.  I'm thinking of the 2-headed 11c lutes or 
reflex-headed theorboes/archlutes that don't seem to have surviving specimens.  
Even discounting the deliberate creation of unclassifiable instruments, it 
would still be a very tricky task.

Bill
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media

-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:56:31 
To: lute mailing list listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu; EugeneBraigbrai...@osu.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Dear Eugene,

   I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
   classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
   prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
   presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been revised
   since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
   early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
   same for present day organological research.

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

   I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
   neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
   similar parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims
   of human creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with
   many structurally different things being tuned identically and many
   functionally different things with similar construction carrying the
   name.  This case is not unique.
   General taxonomy of musical instruments has been around for a great
   long time (as organology), there are even whole scholarly societies
   committed to it (e.g., [1]http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However,
   such systems require a great many more judgment calls by their
   developers than biological systematics.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of William Samson
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:41 PM
   To: Lex van Sante; lute mailing list list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if
   it's
  feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
  particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
  that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
  different kinds of orchid, for example?
  I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too
   old
  to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.
  Bill
  From: Lex van Sante [4]lvansa...@gmail.com
  To: lute mailing list list [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
  Lex
  Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
Such as ?  .
  
  
  
Monica
  
- Original Message -
  
From: [1]WALSH STUART
  
To: [2]Monica Hall
  
Cc: [3]Lutelist
  
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
  
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  
  Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
  Stuart
  
On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall
   [4][1][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  wrote:
  
  Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
  gittern/mandore.
When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
  large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
  It
  depends what you mean by separate traditions...
  Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
  
Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in
   agreement
  with
Meucci?
Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are
   from
  you. As
I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
  large
lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
  chitarrone
  (he
is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
  gittern/mandore).
Stuart
On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
  [1][5

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Lex van Sante]

I agree and BTW Milan and Kapsberger to name but a few also could be 
categorized as aristocratic amateurs, couldn't they?
Op 18 okt 2012, om 10:03 heeft Martyn Hodgson het volgende geschreven:

 
   Dear Denys,
 
   Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views.
   Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what Bob
   wrote is still widely agreed upon today.
 
   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com wrote:
 
 From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32
 
   Dear Roman,
   I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to
   see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
   written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
   to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
   things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
   outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
   remembered with gratitude and respect by many.
   Best wishes,
   Denys
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
   Of Roman Turovsky
   Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
   To: R. Mattes
   Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Thanks for this!
   The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses
   in
   guitar tuning (with whatever names),
   the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the
   perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
   I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived,
   well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
   aristocratic amateurism.
   RT
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[willsamson]

Bob was a charming man and a great scholar but not an 'aristocrat' in the usual 
sense of the word.

Bill
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media

-Original Message-
From: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com
Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:13:13 
To: lute mailing list listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

I agree and BTW Milan and Kapsberger to name but a few also could be 
categorized as aristocratic amateurs, couldn't they?
Op 18 okt 2012, om 10:03 heeft Martyn Hodgson het volgende geschreven:

 
   Dear Denys,
 
   Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views.
   Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what Bob
   wrote is still widely agreed upon today.
 
   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com wrote:
 
 From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32
 
   Dear Roman,
   I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to
   see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
   written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
   to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
   things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
   outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
   remembered with gratitude and respect by many.
   Best wishes,
   Denys
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
   Of Roman Turovsky
   Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
   To: R. Mattes
   Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Thanks for this!
   The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses
   in
   guitar tuning (with whatever names),
   the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the
   perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
   I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived,
   well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
   aristocratic amateurism.
   RT
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Roman Turovsky]

Stuart did mention colascione just below!
RT


On 10/18/2012 3:45 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Nobody has yet mentioned the colascione, nor the bandurria and the 
vandola.


Presumably they qualify for inclusion.

I'm not sure whether it is helpful to go further afield.   Let's stick 
to the 16th and 17th centuries.


Monica
- Original Message - From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:38 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone



  mandolins in many different forms, mandores, gitterns, some English
  guitars, mandora/gallichons, colascione, some 18th century French
  cistres, (further afield: things like Ukrainian torban, lute shaped
  hurdy-gurdies)
  Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 21:05, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 
wrote:


  Such as ?   .

  Monica

  - Original Message -

  From: [2]WALSH STUART

  To: [3]Monica Hall

  Cc: [4]Lutelist

  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM

  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 
wrote:


Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
  When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
depends what you mean by separate traditions...
Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
with
  Meucci?
  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
you. As
  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
large
  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
(he
  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
gittern/mandore).
  Stuart
  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][6]tio...@gmail.com
wrote:
If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
Chitarrone here:
[2][7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
The first chapter is about ethimology.
Diego
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
[3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
References
  1. mailto:[9]tio...@gmail.com
  2. [10]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  3. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  6. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  9. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
 10. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Roman Turovsky]

So we have some uncategorizable instruments.
The ultimate point is that Meucci makes a lot more sense than the rest 
of them/us.

RT



On 10/18/2012 3:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Dear Stuart,

I'd argue that many of these are 'lutes', such as mandores, some
gitterns, theorbos, chitarroni, archlutes, mandoras/gallichons,
colasciones, mandolins/mandolas, etc. In short, instruments developed
directly from the same general platonic 'lute' form.

The big difference, and obvious to all, is between the waisted guitar
family and the lute family. And so we come full circle.
Martyn
--- On Wed, 17/10/12, WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:

  From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 21:38

   mandolins in many different forms, mandores, gitterns, some English
   guitars, mandora/gallichons, colascione, some 18th century French
   cistres, (further afield: things like Ukrainian torban, lute shaped
   hurdy-gurdies)
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 21:05, Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
   Such as ?   .
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: [2]WALSH STUART
   To: [3]Monica Hall
   Cc: [4]Lutelist
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
 Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [5][2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
 Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
gittern/mandore.
   When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
 large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped
body.   It
 depends what you mean by separate traditions...
 Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
 with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
 you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
 large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
chitarrone
 (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
 gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
[1][6][3]tio...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][7][4]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at

[3][8][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. mailto:[9][6]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [10][7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [11][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
References
   1. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:[10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   3. mailto:[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   4. mailto:[12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   6. mailto:[14]tio...@gmail.com
   7. [15]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   8. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. mailto:[17]tio...@gmail.com
  10. [18]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  11. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
4. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
   15. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tio...@gmail.com
   18. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

Yes - I will second that.   I re-read  recently the article on the 
chitarrone francese and thought it covered the issues clearly and the 
description of the little manuscript of music for a 5-course instrument with 
extended basses very interesting indeed.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Denys Stephens 
denyssteph...@sky.com

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:03 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone




  Dear Denys,

  Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views.
  Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what Bob
  wrote is still widely agreed upon today.

  Martyn
  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com wrote:

From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32

  Dear Roman,
  I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to
  see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
  written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
  to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
  things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
  outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
  remembered with gratitude and respect by many.
  Best wishes,
  Denys
  -Original Message-
  From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
  Of Roman Turovsky
  Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
  To: R. Mattes
  Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Thanks for this!
  The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses
  in
  guitar tuning (with whatever names),
  the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the
  perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
  I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived,
  well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
  aristocratic amateurism.
  RT
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. 
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  2. 
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu

  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

Actually he started out as a librarian and I always felt we had a lot in 
common.   He was also a really nice person and it was a great loss when he 
passed away prematurely.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com; lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


Bob was a charming man and a great scholar but not an 'aristocrat' in the 
usual sense of the word.


Bill
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media

-Original Message-
From: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com
Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:13:13
To: lute mailing list listlute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

I agree and BTW Milan and Kapsberger to name but a few also could be 
categorized as aristocratic amateurs, couldn't they?

Op 18 okt 2012, om 10:03 heeft Martyn Hodgson het volgende geschreven:



  Dear Denys,

  Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views.
  Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what Bob
  wrote is still widely agreed upon today.

  Martyn
  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com wrote:

From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32

  Dear Roman,
  I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to
  see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
  written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
  to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
  things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
  outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
  remembered with gratitude and respect by many.
  Best wishes,
  Denys
  -Original Message-
  From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
  Of Roman Turovsky
  Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
  To: R. Mattes
  Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Thanks for this!
  The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses
  in
  guitar tuning (with whatever names),
  the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the
  perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
  I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived,
  well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
  aristocratic amateurism.
  RT
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. 
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  2. 
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu

  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Sam Chapman]

   Dear Lex,

   I don't think Kapsperger qualifies as an arisocratic amateur since he
   was (along with Frescobaldi) the highest paid musician at Cardinal
   Barbarini's court in Rome. Castaldi on the other hand certainly was an
   aristocratic amateur...

   While creating a full family tree of lute-type instruments might be
   unfeasible, it might be interesting to come up with a list of all the
   different instruments which were refered to as chitarrone
   historically. I think it would be quite a long list. The theorbo list
   would be even longer!

   All the best,

   Sam
   On 18 October 2012 10:13, Lex van Sante [1]lvansa...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree and BTW Milan and Kapsberger to name but a few also could be
 categorized as aristocratic amateurs, couldn't they?
 Op 18 okt 2012, om 10:03 heeft Martyn Hodgson het volgende
 geschreven:

   
  Dear Denys,
   
  Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views.
  Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what
   Bob
  wrote is still widely agreed upon today.
   

Martyn

  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens [2]denyssteph...@sky.com
   wrote:
   
From: Denys Stephens [3]denyssteph...@sky.com

  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

To: 'lute net' [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32
   
  Dear Roman,
  I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to
  see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
  written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
  to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
  things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
  outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
  remembered with gratitude and respect by many.
  Best wishes,
  Denys
  -Original Message-
  From: [1][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  [mailto:[2][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
  Of Roman Turovsky
  Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
  To: R. Mattes
  Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Thanks for this!
  The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6
   courses
  in
  guitar tuning (with whatever names),
  the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the
  perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
  I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived,
  well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
  aristocratic amateurism.
  RT

  To get on or off this list see list information at

[3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
--
 
  References
 
1.
 [8]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmout
 h.edu
2.
 [9]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmout
 h.edu
3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

   --
   Sam Chapman
   Oetlingerstrasse 65
   4057 Basel
   (0041) 79 530 39 91

   --

References

   1. mailto:lvansa...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com
   3. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Martyn Hodgson]

   What are your 'uncategorizable instruments' ? With enough categories
   anything can be classified - the task is to develop a system which
   allows a degree of rational consolidation and so allow some general
   conclusions to be drawn.

   As already said, the major physical difference, and one immediately
   obvious to all, is between the waisted guitar family and the bowl lute
   family. The early lute shaped 'kitharra' is thus more related to the
   lute family than the waisted guitar family - tho', of course, both
   familes may have had instruments strummed as well as plucked (this
   might be what led Meucci astray). And so we come full circle,
   again...

   And of course we haven't even looked at what Piccinnini tells us of the
   origin of the chitarrone (in short, a restrung bass lute): it would
   indeed be very strange if he thought he could get away with a downright
   lie since others would have still been around to point out his error.

   MH
   --- On Thu, 18/10/12, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:

 From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Lutelist
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 18 October, 2012, 12:52

   So we have some uncategorizable instruments.
   The ultimate point is that Meucci makes a lot more sense than the rest
   of them/us.
   RT
   On 10/18/2012 3:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
   
I'd argue that many of these are 'lutes', such as mandores, some
gitterns, theorbos, chitarroni, archlutes, mandoras/gallichons,
colasciones, mandolins/mandolas, etc. In short, instruments
   developed
directly from the same general platonic 'lute' form.
   
The big difference, and obvious to all, is between the waisted
   guitar
family and the lute family. And so we come full circle.
Martyn
--- On Wed, 17/10/12, WALSH STUART [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   wrote:
   
  From: WALSH STUART [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Lutelist [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 21:38
   
   mandolins in many different forms, mandores, gitterns, some
   English
   guitars, mandora/gallichons, colascione, some 18th century
   French
   cistres, (further afield: things like Ukrainian torban, lute
   shaped
   hurdy-gurdies)
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 21:05, Monica Hall
   [1][1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
   Such as ?   .
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: [2]WALSH STUART
   To: [3]Monica Hall
   Cc: [4]Lutelist
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
 Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall
   [5][2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
 Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
gittern/mandore.
   When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it
   is a
 large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped
body.   It
 depends what you mean by separate traditions...
 Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in
   agreement
 with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are
   from
 you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone
   is a
 large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
chitarrone
 (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
 gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
[1][6][3][7]tio...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation
   about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][7][4][8]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   
   
   [3][8][5][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. mailto:[9][6][10]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [10][7][11]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3.
   [11][8][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
References
   1. mailto:[9][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually operating under 
some form of generally acceptable classification system for 'lutes', either 
as written in some source or another or devised in their own heads based upon 
discussions like these.  Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.

It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would likely 
prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial detail.  I 
suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from mandora, e.g., probably 
already have a decent sense of how to do so.  I think a key could be 
constructed--I don't know, maybe already has been--but I suspect a key in this 
domain would be most useful if very simplified and designed with the generally 
uninitiated in mind.  Even among field biologists, once you know how to 
identify whatever you happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any 
longer.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Dear Eugene,

   I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
   classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
   prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
   presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been revised
   since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
   early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
   same for present day organological research.

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

   I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
   neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
   similar parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims
   of human creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with
   many structurally different things being tuned identically and many
   functionally different things with similar construction carrying the
   name.  This case is not unique.
   General taxonomy of musical instruments has been around for a great
   long time (as organology), there are even whole scholarly societies
   committed to it (e.g., [1]http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However,
   such systems require a great many more judgment calls by their
   developers than biological systematics.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of William Samson
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:41 PM
   To: Lex van Sante; lute mailing list list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if
   it's
  feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
  particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
  that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
  different kinds of orchid, for example?
  I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too
   old
  to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.
  Bill
  From: Lex van Sante [4]lvansa...@gmail.com
  To: lute mailing list list [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
  Lex
  Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
Such as ?  .
  
  
  
Monica
  
- Original Message -
  
From: [1]WALSH STUART
  
To: [2]Monica Hall
  
Cc: [3]Lutelist
  
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
  
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  
  Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
  Stuart
  
On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall
   [4][1][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  wrote:
  
  Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
  gittern/mandore.
When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
  large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
  It
  depends what you mean by separate traditions...
  Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
  
Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in
   agreement
  with
Meucci?
Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are
   from
  you. As
I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
  large

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Dan Winheld]

Until musical instruments can mate  propagate on their own, the 
biological systems for classification become a strained analogy that 
must, at some point, break down. I'm still waiting for my 8 course tenor 
lute and my 13 course Baroque lute to get together some night and bless 
our happy household with a baby 10 course lute some fine morning.


(And the lauto? And what about the flat-backed Angelique by Gibson?)

-This could spiral out of control, like Moondog's song about human 
rights. Enough about human rights! What about whale rights? What about 
worm rights? What about germ rights? etc, etc.


On 10/18/2012 7:32 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:

I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually operating under 
some form of generally acceptable classification system for 'lutes', either 
as written in some source or another or devised in their own heads based upon discussions 
like these.  Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.

It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would likely 
prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial detail.  I 
suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from mandora, e.g., probably 
already have a decent sense of how to do so.  I think a key could be 
constructed--I don't know, maybe already has been--but I suspect a key in this 
domain would be most useful if very simplified and designed with the generally 
uninitiated in mind.  Even among field biologists, once you know how to 
identify whatever you happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any 
longer.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


Dear Eugene,

I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been revised
since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
same for present day organological research.

Martyn
--- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

  From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
similar parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims
of human creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with
many structurally different things being tuned identically and many
functionally different things with similar construction carrying the
name.  This case is not unique.
General taxonomy of musical instruments has been around for a great
long time (as organology), there are even whole scholarly societies
committed to it (e.g., [1]http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However,
such systems require a great many more judgment calls by their
developers than biological systematics.
Best,
Eugenel










To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Mark Warren]

One problem with borrowing from biological taxonomy in determining 
relationships between lute-like instruments is the possibility of 
coincidental similarities. In biology, convergent evolution is common: 
organisms that evolve in parallel by responding to similar habitats, so 
that their shapes or functions end up resembling each other even though 
they're not directly related species (birds and bats, for example, or 
fishes and whales). Those apparent similarities can be distinguished by 
genetics and through the fossil record; establishing a true evolutionary 
lineage may be much harder to do with apparently similar musical 
instruments that emerged in widely separated cultures.


For instance, is the bouzouki a member of the European lute family, 
based solely on the shape of its body and its country of origin? Is the 
Chinese pipa related to the Persian oud, or is it in an entirely 
different lineage that 'converged' to resemble other lute-like 
instruments around the world? They're all plucked cordophones with 
resonating soundboards and necks, for sure, but attempting a taxonomy 
much beyond that level of generality may be fraught with peril...



On 10/18/2012 11:49 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
Until musical instruments can mate  propagate on their own, the 
biological systems for classification become a strained analogy that 
must, at some point, break down. I'm still waiting for my 8 course 
tenor lute and my 13 course Baroque lute to get together some night 
and bless our happy household with a baby 10 course lute some fine 
morning.


(And the lauto? And what about the flat-backed Angelique by Gibson?)

-This could spiral out of control, like Moondog's song about human 
rights. Enough about human rights! What about whale rights? What 
about worm rights? What about germ rights? etc, etc.


On 10/18/2012 7:32 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually 
operating under some form of generally acceptable classification 
system for 'lutes', either as written in some source or another or 
devised in their own heads based upon discussions like these.  
Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.


It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would 
likely prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial 
detail.  I suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from 
mandora, e.g., probably already have a decent sense of how to do so.  
I think a key could be constructed--I don't know, maybe already has 
been--but I suspect a key in this domain would be most useful if very 
simplified and designed with the generally uninitiated in mind.  Even 
among field biologists, once you know how to identify whatever you 
happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any longer.


Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


Dear Eugene,

I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been 
revised

since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
same for present day organological research.

Martyn
--- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

  From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
similar parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious 
whims

of human creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with
many structurally different things being tuned identically and many
functionally different things with similar construction carrying the
name.  This case is not unique.
General taxonomy of musical instruments has been around for a 
great
long time (as organology), there are even whole scholarly 
societies

committed to it (e.g., [1]http://www.galpinsociety.org/). However,
such systems require a great many more judgment calls by their
developers than biological systematics.
Best,
Eugenel










To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

..And regarding organology, there often isn't a true evolutionary lineage in 
the sense of a single line.  Borrowing from several working instrument types to 
arrive at something new and altogether different occurs with frequency (again, 
the early Neapolitan mandolin, as a relatively recent invention, is an 
excellent and relatively well-documented example).  The bouzouki you mention 
below, Mark, is another good one, built to a saz-like structural paradigm 
before the wide popularity of the mandolin in the 19th-c., but most often to a 
generally mandolin-like one after.  Chimeras don't exist in a zoological world 
subject to the laws that govern inheritance and evolution; they're relatively 
common to musical instrument types.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Mark Warren
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:55 PM
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

One problem with borrowing from biological taxonomy in determining 
relationships between lute-like instruments is the possibility of coincidental 
similarities. In biology, convergent evolution is common: 
organisms that evolve in parallel by responding to similar habitats, so that 
their shapes or functions end up resembling each other even though they're not 
directly related species (birds and bats, for example, or fishes and whales). 
Those apparent similarities can be distinguished by genetics and through the 
fossil record; establishing a true evolutionary lineage may be much harder to 
do with apparently similar musical instruments that emerged in widely separated 
cultures.

For instance, is the bouzouki a member of the European lute family, based 
solely on the shape of its body and its country of origin? Is the Chinese pipa 
related to the Persian oud, or is it in an entirely different lineage that 
'converged' to resemble other lute-like instruments around the world? They're 
all plucked cordophones with resonating soundboards and necks, for sure, but 
attempting a taxonomy much beyond that level of generality may be fraught with 
peril...


On 10/18/2012 11:49 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
 Until musical instruments can mate  propagate on their own, the 
 biological systems for classification become a strained analogy that 
 must, at some point, break down. I'm still waiting for my 8 course 
 tenor lute and my 13 course Baroque lute to get together some night 
 and bless our happy household with a baby 10 course lute some fine 
 morning.

 (And the lauto? And what about the flat-backed Angelique by Gibson?)

 -This could spiral out of control, like Moondog's song about human 
 rights. Enough about human rights! What about whale rights? What 
 about worm rights? What about germ rights? etc, etc.

 On 10/18/2012 7:32 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
 I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually 
 operating under some form of generally acceptable classification 
 system for 'lutes', either as written in some source or another or 
 devised in their own heads based upon discussions like these.
 Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.

 It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would 
 likely prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial 
 detail.  I suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from 
 mandora, e.g., probably already have a decent sense of how to do so.
 I think a key could be constructed--I don't know, maybe already has 
 been--but I suspect a key in this domain would be most useful if very 
 simplified and designed with the generally uninitiated in mind.  Even 
 among field biologists, once you know how to identify whatever you 
 happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any longer.

 Best,
 Eugene

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
 Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
 To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


 Dear Eugene,

 I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
 classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
 prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
 presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been 
 revised
 since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
 early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
 same for present day organological research.

 Martyn
 --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

 I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
 neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
 similar parental things

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is derived 
from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked stringed 
instrument.   In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a small member 
of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.


The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century and is 
almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to distinguish it from 
the chitarra italiana.


The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The 
inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in the 
early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the chordal 
style of playing associated with the guitar did have some influence on lute 
accompaniments.


I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for a lot of 
lute/guitar related topics.


Best

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com

To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone



  The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



  The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
  (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
  particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
  writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

  Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
  simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
  first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just as
  the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
  The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
  writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
  efect e so on...




  --

  Bruno Correia



  Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

  historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

  Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

  Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
   the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
   recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
   a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
   it) of the ancient world.

   See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

   MH
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
   wrote:

 From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
 Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

   The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
   It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
   See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
   RT
   On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
   
   
   
The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
(chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
   
Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
   the
first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
   just as
the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
   technique.
The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
   guitar
writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
   campanellas
efect e so on...
   
   
   
   
--
   
Bruno Correia
   
   
   
Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   
historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   
Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   
--
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[wikla]

And you can find Bob's article on-line in
   http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/

Arto

On 17/10/12 11:07, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
it) of the ancient world.

See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

MH
--- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
wrote:

  From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
  Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
RT
On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
 The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



 The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
 (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
 particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
 writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

 Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
 simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
the
 first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
just as
 the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
technique.
 The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
guitar
 writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
campanellas
 efect e so on...




 --

 Bruno Correia



 Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

 historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

 Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

 Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

 --


 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

There is also the article by John Hill in Early Music, Vol. 11, no. 2, April 
1983, p. 194-208 which does mention the possible influence of the guitar on 
the lute  -


Realized continuo accompaniments from Florence c.1600.

I am not sure if it is available on line unless you have a subscription.

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi

To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com; r.turov...@gmail.com; List 
LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:38 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone




And you can find Bob's article on-line in
   http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/

Arto

On 17/10/12 11:07, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany 
their
recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have 
been

a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
it) of the ancient world.

See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

MH
--- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
wrote:

  From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
  Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
RT
On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
 The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



 The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
 (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
 particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other 
early

 writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

 Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say 
it

 simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
the
 first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
just as
 the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
technique.
 The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
guitar
 writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
campanellas
 efect e so on...




 --

 Bruno Correia



 Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

 historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

 Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

 Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

 --


 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

   Meucci makes a lot more sense that Spenser.
   RT
   On 10/17/2012 4:07 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
   the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
   recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
   a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
   it) of the ancient world.

   See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

   MH
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com [2]r.turov...@gmail.com
   wrote:

 From: [3]r.turov...@gmail.com [4]r.turov...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: Bruno Correia [5]bruno.l...@gmail.com
 Cc: List LUTELIST [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

   The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
   It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
   See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
   RT
   On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
   
   
   
The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
(chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
   
Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
   the
first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
   just as
the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
   technique.
The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
   guitar
writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
   campanellas
efect e so on...
   
   
   
   
--
   
Bruno Correia
   
   
   
Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   
historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   
Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   
--
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   5. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
   6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

The argument is that chitarrone is the bass variety of Italian 
lute-shaped guitar, that later was theorboed, and eventually conflated

with theorbo.
And this makes perfect sense.
RT





On 10/17/2012 4:04 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is 
derived from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked 
stringed instrument.   In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a 
small member of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.


The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century 
and is almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to 
distinguish it from the chitarra italiana.


The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The 
inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in 
the early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the 
chordal style of playing associated with the guitar did have some 
influence on lute accompaniments.


I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for a 
lot of lute/guitar related topics.


Best

Monica


- Original Message - From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone



  The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



  The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
  (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
  particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
  writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

  Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
  simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
  first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, 
just as

  the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
  The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
  writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
  efect e so on...




  --

  Bruno Correia



  Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

  historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

  Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

  Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

I think you are confusing the issue here.  There is no such thing as an 
lute-shaped guitar.   What Meucci is saying that the term chitarra in 
early (15th -16th century) Italian sources refers to an instrument of the 
lute family not to a figure-of-eight shaped instrument.


The meaning of words changes with the passage of time.

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: r.turov...@gmail.com

To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com; Lutelist 
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


The argument is that chitarrone is the bass variety of Italian lute-shaped 
guitar, that later was theorboed, and eventually conflated

with theorbo.
And this makes perfect sense.
RT





On 10/17/2012 4:04 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is 
derived from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked 
stringed instrument.   In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a 
small member of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.


The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century and 
is almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to distinguish it 
from the chitarra italiana.


The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The 
inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in the 
early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the chordal 
style of playing associated with the guitar did have some influence on 
lute accompaniments.


I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for a lot 
of lute/guitar related topics.


Best

Monica


- Original Message - From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone



  The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



  The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
  (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
  particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
  writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

  Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
  simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
  first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just 
as

  the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
  The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
  writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
  efect e so on...




  --

  Bruno Correia



  Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

  historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

  Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

  Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

There is.
And there is a fair amount of iconography for it, lutes of 3-4 courses.
RT


On 10/17/2012 7:57 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
I think you are confusing the issue here.  There is no such thing as 
an lute-shaped guitar.   What Meucci is saying that the term 
chitarra in early (15th -16th century) Italian sources refers to an 
instrument of the lute family not to a figure-of-eight shaped instrument.


The meaning of words changes with the passage of time.

Monica


- Original Message - From: r.turov...@gmail.com
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com; Lutelist 
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


The argument is that chitarrone is the bass variety of Italian 
lute-shaped guitar, that later was theorboed, and eventually conflated

with theorbo.
And this makes perfect sense.
RT





On 10/17/2012 4:04 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is 
derived from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked 
stringed instrument. In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a 
small member of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.


The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century 
and is almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to 
distinguish it from the chitarra italiana.


The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The 
inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in 
the early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the 
chordal style of playing associated with the guitar did have some 
influence on lute accompaniments.


I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for 
a lot of lute/guitar related topics.


Best

Monica


- Original Message - From: Bruno Correia 
bruno.l...@gmail.com

To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone



  The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



  The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
  (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
  particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
  writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

  Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
  simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
  first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, 
just as

  the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
  The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
  writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
  efect e so on...




  --

  Bruno Correia



  Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

  historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

  Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

  Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Martyn Hodgson]

   What you call an early Italian 'lute-shaped guitar' is more
   likely nothing else but - a lute.

   MH

   ''--- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
   wrote:

 From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com, Lutelist
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 12:21

   The argument is that chitarrone is the bass variety of Italian
   lute-shaped guitar, that later was theorboed, and eventually conflated
   with theorbo.
   And this makes perfect sense.
   RT
   On 10/17/2012 4:04 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is
   derived from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked
   stringed instrument.   In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a
   small member of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.
   
The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century
   and is almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to
   distinguish it from the chitarra italiana.
   
The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The
   inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in the
   early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the
   chordal style of playing associated with the guitar did have some
   influence on lute accompaniments.
   
I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for a
   lot of lute/guitar related topics.
   
Best
   
Monica
   
   
- Original Message - From: Bruno Correia
   [1]bruno.l...@gmail.com
To: List LUTELIST [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone
   
   
  The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
   
   
   
  The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
  (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
  particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
  writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
   
  Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
  simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
  first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
   just as
  the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
   technique.
  The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
  writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
   campanellas
  efect e so on...
   
   
   
   
  --
   
  Bruno Correia
   
   
   
  Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   
  historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   
  Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   
  Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   
  --
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
   

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bruno.l...@gmail.com
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[R. Mattes]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:57:06 +0100, Monica Hall wrote
 I think you are confusing the issue here.  There is no such thing as 
 an lute-shaped guitar.   What Meucci is saying that the term 
 chitarra in early (15th -16th century) Italian sources refers to 
 an instrument of the lute family not to a figure-of-eight shaped instrument.

I shure hope this is what Meucci meant.

 The meaning of words changes with the passage of time.

Even worse: there's no definite meaning atached to 'chitarra' during
that period. Unfortunately, at the end of the 15th century some theorists
decided to switch from the well-established medieval latin terms to some
fancy anticisizing terms. So we end up with chitarra in Tinctoris and Gafrius.

Chitarra could mean: Lute, small Lute/gittern, Harp and at some point also
the instrument we now call Renaissance Guitar.
So - a Chitarrone is a large stringed instrument. Not very helpful :-)
 
 Cheers, RalfD  

 Monica
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: r.turov...@gmail.com
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com; Lutelist 
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:21 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 
  The argument is that chitarrone is the bass variety of Italian lute-shaped 
  guitar, that later was theorboed, and eventually conflated
  with theorbo.
  And this makes perfect sense.
  RT
 
 
 
 
 
  On 10/17/2012 4:04 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
  In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is 
  derived from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked 
  stringed instrument.   In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a 
  small member of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.
 
  The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century and 
  is almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to distinguish it 
  from the chitarra italiana.
 
  The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The 
  inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in the 
  early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the chordal 
  style of playing associated with the guitar did have some influence on 
  lute accompaniments.
 
  I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for a lot 
  of lute/guitar related topics.
 
  Best
 
  Monica
 
 
  - Original Message - From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
  To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
  Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone
 
 
The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
 
 
 
The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
(chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
 
Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just 
  as
the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
efect e so on...
 
 
 
 
--
 
Bruno Correia
 
 
 
Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
 
historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
 
Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
 
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
 
--
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 


--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Roman Turovsky]

Thanks for this!
The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses in 
guitar tuning (with whatever names),
the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the 
perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived, 
well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's

aristocratic amateurism.
RT





On 10/17/2012 8:17 AM, R. Mattes wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:57:06 +0100, Monica Hall wrote

I think you are confusing the issue here.  There is no such thing as
an lute-shaped guitar.   What Meucci is saying that the term
chitarra in early (15th -16th century) Italian sources refers to
an instrument of the lute family not to a figure-of-eight shaped instrument.

I shure hope this is what Meucci meant.


The meaning of words changes with the passage of time.

Even worse: there's no definite meaning atached to 'chitarra' during
that period. Unfortunately, at the end of the 15th century some theorists
decided to switch from the well-established medieval latin terms to some
fancy anticisizing terms. So we end up with chitarra in Tinctoris and Gafrius.

Chitarra could mean: Lute, small Lute/gittern, Harp and at some point also
the instrument we now call Renaissance Guitar.
So - a Chitarrone is a large stringed instrument. Not very helpful :-)
  
  Cheers, RalfD



Monica

- Original Message -
From: r.turov...@gmail.com
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com; Lutelist
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


The argument is that chitarrone is the bass variety of Italian lute-shaped
guitar, that later was theorboed, and eventually conflated
with theorbo.
And this makes perfect sense.
RT





On 10/17/2012 4:04 AM, Monica Hall wrote:

In a nutshell what Meucci has argued is that the term chitarra is
derived from the Greek term kithara which refers to any plucked
stringed instrument.   In early Italian sources chitarra refers to a
small member of the lute family not to the figure of 8 shaped guitar.

The guitar was almost unknown in Italy until the early 17th century and
is almost invariably known as the chitarra spagnola to distinguish it
from the chitarra italiana.

The chitarrone is a large lute - not a large guitar.   The
inter-relationship between the chitarrone and the Spanish guitar in the
early song repertoire is a complex one but it does seem that the chordal
style of playing associated with the guitar did have some influence on
lute accompaniments.

I am afraid Groves is not a very reliable source of information for a lot
of lute/guitar related topics.

Best

Monica


- Original Message - From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:11 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Chitarrone



   The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



   The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
   writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

   Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
   simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
   first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just
as
   the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
   The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
   writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
   efect e so on...




   --

   Bruno Correia



   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html






--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[howard posner]

On Oct 17, 2012, at 4:17 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 There is also the article by John Hill in Early Music, Vol. 11, no. 2, April 
 1983, p. 194-208 which does mention the possible influence of the guitar on 
 the lute  -
 
 Realized continuo accompaniments from Florence c.1600.
 
 I am not sure if it is available on line unless you have a subscription.

… or a pdf.  Here's the passage Monica is probably thinking of, from page 
202-203.  It refers to illustrations I'm not trying to include: 

The keyboard harmonizations are really no more
elaborate than those for archlute, except that the vocal
melody included in them contains some ornamentation,
as in 0 miei giorni fugaci. It is primarily only the
inclusion of the bass part and some variety of chord
voicing that distinguishes the archlute accompaniments
from the strummed, rasgueado guitar accompaniments
to monodies, which have recently been studied by
Robert Strizich.24 As with the guitar accompaniments,
these archlute realizations show very little concern
about giving the upper line a distinct melodic shape.
Indeed many of them are as disjunct as the two
versions of Udite, udite amanti given here. In general,
ease of fingering and fullness of sonority seem to have
weighed more than smoothness of line in the judgement
of these Florentine musicians. A simple, chordal
texture, free of the counterpoint that Vincenzo Galilei
maligned for obscuring the text and free of rhythmic
complication that might inhibit the singer'ssprezzatura
(rhythmic freedom), was their ideal.

Parallelisms
No modern editor would dare to write the parallel 5ths
and octaves that confront us in the first two bars of
Tamo mia vita or in 0 rnieigiomi fugaci, bar 6. Yet these
parallelisms are found frequently in nearly every one
of these Florentine realizations, whether for archlute
or keyboard. It is often overlooked that even Viadana.
the church musician. wrote, in 1602. 'The organ part is
never under any obligation to avoid two Sths or two
octave^'.'^ Guidotti. in his preface to Cavalieri's Rappresentazione
di anima et di cop0 (Rome. 1 600), says 'two
Sths are taken as occasion demands'. Caccini in his
preface to Euridice (Florence, I6OO), writes 'I have not
avoided the succession of two octaves or two 5th~'.
Vincenzo Galilei, in his Dialogo of 158 1 ,26 had advised
them all that two or more perfect consonances consecutively
are to be allowed when three or more parts
are sounding, advice upon which he elaborates in a
treatise of c1590 in this way: 'The law of modern
contrapuntists that prohibits the use of two octaves or
two 5ths is a law truly contrary to every natural law of
singing [solo song^].'^'
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

The alternate theory of guitar and related words in other languages being 
derived from Persian roots char-tar (i.e., four string) used to get some 
traffic.  Is that term still discussed/debated with any frequency?  If not, why 
not?

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Bruno Correia; r.turov...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
   the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
   recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
   a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
   it) of the ancient world.

   See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

   MH
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
   wrote:

 From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
 Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

   The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
   It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
   See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
   RT
   On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
   
   
   
The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
(chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
   
Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
   the
first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
   just as
the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
   technique.
The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
   guitar
writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
   campanellas
efect e so on...
   
   
   
   
--
   
Bruno Correia
   
   
   
Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   
historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   
Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   
Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   
--
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Diego Cantalupi]

If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about Chitarrone here:

http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf

The first chapter is about ethimology.

Diego

 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

The alternate theory of guitar and related words in other languages
being derived from Persian roots char-tar (i.e., four string) used to
get some traffic.  Is that term still discussed/debated with any
frequency?  If not, why not?


Probably because there is  no real logic in it.   Char is four in Hindi and 
Urdu.

too.

Monica




Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Bruno Correia; r.turov...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


  Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
  the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
  recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
  a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
  it) of the ancient world.

  See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

  MH
  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
  wrote:

From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

  The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
  It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
  See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
  RT
  On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
   The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
  
  
  
   The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
   writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
  
   Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
   simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
  the
   first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
  just as
   the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
  technique.
   The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
  guitar
   writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
  campanellas
   efect e so on...
  
  
  
  
   --
  
   Bruno Correia
  
  
  
   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
  
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
  
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
  
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
  
   --
  
  
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

Hindi-Urdu is one and the same language.
Urdu by itself is not a language, but a register of the former.
RT


On 10/17/2012 2:41 PM, Monica Hall wrote:



The alternate theory of guitar and related words in other languages
being derived from Persian roots char-tar (i.e., four string) 
used to

get some traffic.  Is that term still discussed/debated with any
frequency?  If not, why not?


Probably because there is  no real logic in it.   Char is four in 
Hindi and Urdu.

too.

Monica




Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Bruno Correia; r.turov...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


  Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
  the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
  recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
  a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
  it) of the ancient world.

  See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

  MH
  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
  wrote:

From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

  The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
  It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
  See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
  RT
  On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
   The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
  
  
  
   The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other 
early

   writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
  
   Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to 
say it

   simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
  the
   first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
  just as
   the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
  technique.
   The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
  guitar
   writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
  campanellas
   efect e so on...
  
  
  
  
   --
  
   Bruno Correia
  
  
  
   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
  
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
  
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
  
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
  
   --
  
  
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[WALSH STUART]

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or gittern/mandore).
   Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1]tio...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego

   
   To get on or off this list see list information at

 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

Hindi-Urdu is one and the same language.
Urdu by itself is not a language, but a register of the former.
RT


Try telling that to a Pakistani!

Monica





On 10/17/2012 2:41 PM, Monica Hall wrote:



The alternate theory of guitar and related words in other languages
being derived from Persian roots char-tar (i.e., four string) used 
to

get some traffic.  Is that term still discussed/debated with any
frequency?  If not, why not?


Probably because there is  no real logic in it.   Char is four in Hindi 
and Urdu.

too.

Monica




Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Bruno Correia; r.turov...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


  Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
  the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
  recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
  a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
  it) of the ancient world.

  See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

  MH
  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
  wrote:

From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

  The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
  It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
  See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
  RT
  On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
   The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
  
  
  
   The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other 
early

   writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
  
   Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say 
it

   simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
  the
   first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
  just as
   the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
  technique.
   The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
  guitar
   writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
  campanellas
   efect e so on...
  
  
  
  
   --
  
   Bruno Correia
  
  
  
   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
  
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
  
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
  
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
  
   --
  
  
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

That's what Pakistanis say, and Wikipedia too.
RT


On 10/17/2012 3:22 PM, Monica Hall wrote:



Hindi-Urdu is one and the same language.
Urdu by itself is not a language, but a register of the former.
RT


Try telling that to a Pakistani!

Monica





On 10/17/2012 2:41 PM, Monica Hall wrote:



The alternate theory of guitar and related words in other languages
being derived from Persian roots char-tar (i.e., four string) 
used to

get some traffic.  Is that term still discussed/debated with any
frequency?  If not, why not?


Probably because there is  no real logic in it.   Char is four in 
Hindi and Urdu.

too.

Monica




Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Bruno Correia; r.turov...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


  Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
  the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany 
their
  recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have 
been
  a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they 
saw

  it) of the ancient world.

  See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

  MH
  --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
  wrote:

From: r.turov...@gmail.com r.turov...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
To: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

  The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
  It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
  See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
  RT
  On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
   The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
  
  
  
   The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other 
early

   writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.
  
   Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to 
say it

   simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
  the
   first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino 
line,

  just as
   the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
  technique.
   The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
  guitar
   writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
  campanellas
   efect e so on...
  
  
  
  
   --
  
   Bruno Correia
  
  
  
   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
  
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
  
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
  
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
  
   --
  
  
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

Mandora/Gallichon is part of the same family.
RT


On 10/17/2012 3:19 PM, WALSH STUART wrote:

Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement with
Meucci?
Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you. As
I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone (he
is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or gittern/mandore).
Stuart

On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1]tio...@gmail.com wrote:

  If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
  Chitarrone here:
  [2]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  The first chapter is about ethimology.
  Diego


To get on or off this list see list information at

  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
2. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Roman,
I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to 
see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was
written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution
to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that
things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his
outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is
remembered with gratitude and respect by many.

Best wishes,

Denys



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Roman Turovsky
Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56
To: R. Mattes
Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Thanks for this!
The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses in 
guitar tuning (with whatever names),
the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the 
perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci.
I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived, 
well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's
aristocratic amateurism.
RT








To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

Monica, it is in human nature to yearn for clear distinctions between 
things.

It just doesn't work that way in real life.
RT


On 10/17/2012 3:29 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.   
When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a large 
member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It depends 
what you mean by separate traditions...


Monica...getting more confused by the minute.


  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement with
  Meucci?
  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you. As
  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone (he
  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or 
gittern/mandore).

  Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1]tio...@gmail.com wrote:

If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
Chitarrone here:
[2]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
The first chapter is about ethimology.
Diego

  
  To get on or off this list see list information at

[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[WALSH STUART]

   Don't get (biologist) Eugene going on 'family' metaphors!
   (Wittgenstein's 'family resemblance', might  fit the bill)
   Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 20:25, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com
   [2]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mandora/Gallichon is part of the same family.
 RT

   On 10/17/2012 3:19 PM, WALSH STUART wrote:

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you.
   As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
   (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][3]tio...@gmail.com
   wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][4]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   

   To get on or off this list see list information at

   [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 References

   1. mailto:[6]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[WALSH STUART]

   Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
   Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
   When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
 large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
 depends what you mean by separate traditions...
 Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
 with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
 you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
 large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
 (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
 gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][2]tio...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][3]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. mailto:[5]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

As George Carlin would have put it: Sometimes you open your refrigerator 
and find something you've never seen

before, a MEATCAKE.
RT

On 10/17/2012 3:34 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
Monica, it is in human nature to yearn for clear distinctions between 
things.

It just doesn't work that way in real life.
RT


On 10/17/2012 3:29 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.   
When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a large 
member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It 
depends what you mean by separate traditions...


Monica...getting more confused by the minute.


  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement with
  Meucci?
  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from 
you. As

  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone (he
  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or 
gittern/mandore).

  Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1]tio...@gmail.com 
wrote:


If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
Chitarrone here:
[2]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
The first chapter is about ethimology.
Diego

  
  To get on or off this list see list information at

[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

Not the Pakistani's I know and as my partner is one of them I am getting it
straight from the horse's mouth.

Monica


That's what Pakistanis say, and Wikipedia too.
RT


On 10/17/2012 2:41 PM, Monica Hall 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Monica Hall]

   Such as ?   .



   Monica

   - Original Message -

   From: [1]WALSH STUART

   To: [2]Monica Hall

   Cc: [3]Lutelist

   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM

   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

 Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
 Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
   When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
 large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
 depends what you mean by separate traditions...
 Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
 with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
 you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
 large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
 (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
 gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][5]tio...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. mailto:[8]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [9]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   9. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

Just look it up on Wikipedia already, lest look like something you don't 
to look like.

RT


On 10/17/2012 4:03 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
Not the Pakistani's I know and as my partner is one of them I am 
getting it

straight from the horse's mouth.

Monica


That's what Pakistanis say, and Wikipedia too.
RT


On 10/17/2012 2:41 PM, Monica Hall 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

Mandoras/gallichons, Italian Guitars, Chitarroni, Wandevogellauten, 
Ukrainian Banduras, Citterns with oval bodies etc, etc

RT



On 10/17/2012 4:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote:

Such as ?   .



Monica

- Original Message -

From: [1]WALSH STUART

To: [2]Monica Hall

Cc: [3]Lutelist

Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM

Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

  Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
  Stuart

On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

  Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
  large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
  depends what you mean by separate traditions...
  Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
  with
Meucci?
Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
  you. As
I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
  large
lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
  (he
is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
  gittern/mandore).
Stuart
On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][5]tio...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
  Chitarrone here:
  [2][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  The first chapter is about ethimology.
  Diego

To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
  References
1. mailto:[8]tio...@gmail.com
2. [9]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
9. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Lex van Sante]

Rebec and rebab spring to mind.

Lex
Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:

   Such as ?   .
 
 
 
   Monica
 
   - Original Message -
 
   From: [1]WALSH STUART
 
   To: [2]Monica Hall
 
   Cc: [3]Lutelist
 
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
 
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 
 Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
 Stuart
 
   On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
 
 Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
   When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
 large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
 depends what you mean by separate traditions...
 Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
 
   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
 with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
 you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
 large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
 (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
 gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][5]tio...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
 
   To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
 References
   1. mailto:[8]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [9]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   9. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[William Samson]

   I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if it's
   feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
   particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
   that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
   different kinds of orchid, for example?

   I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too old
   to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.

   Bill
   From: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com
   To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
   Lex
   Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
 Such as ?  .
   
   
   
 Monica
   
 - Original Message -
   
 From: [1]WALSH STUART
   
 To: [2]Monica Hall
   
 Cc: [3]Lutelist
   
 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
   
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   
   Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
   Stuart
   
 On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
   
   Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
   gittern/mandore.
 When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
   large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
   It
   depends what you mean by separate traditions...
   Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
   
 Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   with
 Meucci?
 Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
   you. As
 I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
   large
 lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
   chitarrone
   (he
 is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   gittern/mandore).
 Stuart
 On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
   [1][5][2]tio...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
   Chitarrone here:
   [2][6][3]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   The first chapter is about ethimology.
   Diego
   
 To get on or off this list see list information at
   
   [3][7][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[8][5]tio...@gmail.com
 2. [9][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 3. [10][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
 --
   
References
   
 1. mailto:[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. mailto:[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 5. mailto:[12]tio...@gmail.com
 6. [13]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 7. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 8. mailto:[15]tio...@gmail.com
 9. [16]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 10. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   

   --

References

   1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  12. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  13. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  15. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  16. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

Not worth it.
Especially with such man-made objects.
RT


On 10/17/2012 4:40 PM, William Samson wrote:

I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if it's
feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
different kinds of orchid, for example?

I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too old
to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.

Bill
From: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com
To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
Lex
Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
  Such as ?  .



  Monica

  - Original Message -

  From: [1]WALSH STUART

  To: [2]Monica Hall

  Cc: [3]Lutelist

  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM

  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
Stuart

  On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:

Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
gittern/mandore.
  When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
It
depends what you mean by separate traditions...
Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
with
  Meucci?
  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
you. As
  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
large
  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
chitarrone
(he
  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
gittern/mandore).
  Stuart
  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
[1][5][2]tio...@gmail.com
wrote:
If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
Chitarrone here:
[2][6][3]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
The first chapter is about ethimology.
Diego

  To get on or off this list see list information at

[3][7][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
References
  1. mailto:[8][5]tio...@gmail.com
  2. [9][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  3. [10][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

 References

  1. mailto:[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
  2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. mailto:[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  5. mailto:[12]tio...@gmail.com
  6. [13]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  7. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  8. mailto:[15]tio...@gmail.com
  9. [16]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  10. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

References

1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
3. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   11. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   12. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   13. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   15. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   16. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

I have to agree.  And myriad organological relationships with different facet, 
functions, and potentially involving diverse inspiration/influence don't always 
led themselves to clear distinction at all other than basic description of 
vibrating mechanism.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:35 PM
To: Monica Hall
Cc: WALSH STUART; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Monica, it is in human nature to yearn for clear distinctions between things.
It just doesn't work that way in real life.
RT


On 10/17/2012 3:29 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
 Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.   
 When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a large 
 member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It depends 
 what you mean by separate traditions...

 Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you. As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or 
 gittern/mandore).
   Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1]tio...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego

   
   To get on or off this list see list information at

 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

 References

   1. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

   Too late...


   Eugene


   From: WALSH STUART [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com]
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:54 PM
   To: r.turov...@gmail.com
   Cc: Diego Cantalupi; Braig, Eugene; List LUTELIST
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Don't get (biologist) Eugene going on 'family' metaphors!
   (Wittgenstein's 'family resemblance', might  fit the bill)
   Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 20:25, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com
   [2]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

   Mandora/Gallichon is part of the same family.
   RT

   On 10/17/2012 3:19 PM, WALSH STUART wrote:

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you.
   As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
   (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][3]tio...@gmail.com
   wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][4]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   

   To get on or off this list see list information at

   [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 References

   1. mailto:[6]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

..mandolins in fifth-tunings, some wire-strung English guittars, etc...  
Although I suppose one could argue they all bear some true lute 
relationships, at least structurally.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:10 PM
To: Monica Hall
Cc: WALSH STUART; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Mandoras/gallichons, Italian Guitars, Chitarroni, Wandevogellauten, Ukrainian 
Banduras, Citterns with oval bodies etc, etc
RT



On 10/17/2012 4:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
 Such as ?   .



 Monica

 - Original Message -

 From: [1]WALSH STUART

 To: [2]Monica Hall

 Cc: [3]Lutelist

 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM

 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

   Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
   Stuart

 On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

   Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
 When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
   large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
   depends what you mean by separate traditions...
   Monica...getting more confused by the minute.

 Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   with
 Meucci?
 Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
   you. As
 I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
   large
 lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
   (he
 is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   gittern/mandore).
 Stuart
 On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi [1][5]tio...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
   Chitarrone here:
   [2][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   The first chapter is about ethimology.
   Diego
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[8]tio...@gmail.com
 2. [9]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 --

 References

 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
 6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 8. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
 9. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the neat 
features of biological inheritance is that all things come from similar 
parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims of human 
creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with many structurally 
different things being tuned identically and many functionally different things 
with similar construction carrying the name.  This case is not unique.

General taxonomy of musical instruments has been around for a great long time 
(as organology), there are even whole scholarly societies committed to it 
(e.g., http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However, such systems require a great 
many more judgment calls by their developers than biological systematics.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
William Samson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:41 PM
To: Lex van Sante; lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

   I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if it's
   feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
   particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
   that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
   different kinds of orchid, for example?

   I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too old
   to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.

   Bill
   From: Lex van Sante lvansa...@gmail.com
   To: lute mailing list list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
   Lex
   Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
 Such as ?  .
   
   
   
 Monica
   
 - Original Message -
   
 From: [1]WALSH STUART
   
 To: [2]Monica Hall
   
 Cc: [3]Lutelist
   
 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
   
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   
   Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
   Stuart
   
 On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall [4][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
   
   Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
   gittern/mandore.
 When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
   large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
   It
   depends what you mean by separate traditions...
   Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
   
 Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   with
 Meucci?
 Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
   you. As
 I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
   large
 lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
   chitarrone
   (he
 is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   gittern/mandore).
 Stuart
 On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
   [1][5][2]tio...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
   Chitarrone here:
   [2][6][3]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   The first chapter is about ethimology.
   Diego
   
 To get on or off this list see list information at
   
   [3][7][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[8][5]tio...@gmail.com
 2. [9][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 3. [10][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
 --
   
References
   
 1. mailto:[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. mailto:[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 5. mailto:[12]tio...@gmail.com
 6. [13]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 7. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 8. mailto:[15]tio...@gmail.com
 9. [16]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 10. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   

   --

References

   1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  12. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  13. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  15. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  16. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
RT




On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:

The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:



The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
(chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630.

Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in the
first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line, just as
the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming technique.
The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the guitar
writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs, campanellas
efect e so on...




--

Bruno Correia



Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

--


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone Francese

[Monica Hall]

   I'll send you a few pieces anon.



   I think that the point about the bridge is an important one and also
   whether a flat backed instrument would be resonant enough etc.  This is
   why I queried with Gary whether the instrument in the illustration was
   clearly guitar shaped.   All  he says in his dissertation is that on
   the right hand side of Granata himself there is what appears to be a
   guitar with extended bass strings.   But he does say that it was
   available only in a very poor photocopy and that the instrument appears
   to be left-handed - probably an error on the part of the engraver.



   I might E-mail him and ask him again.



   Monica





   - Original Message -

   From: [1]Rob MacKillop

   To: [2]Monica Hall

   Cc: [3]Vihuelalist

   Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:43 AM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chitarrone Francese

   Thanks, Monica. I only have time for maybe one piece by each composer,
   so if you could post me copies or jpgs that would be great.

   Regarding the question of body shape - guitar or lute - I have no fixed
   or learned opinion, but I imagine different luthiers tried different
   things. The guitar shape is an obvious one to start with, as what we
   are considering is a guitar with diapasons added. However, the baroque
   guitar shape is not conducive to a longer bridge on the bass side. The
   lute shape is better in this regard. So it might be possible that some
   luthiers preferred a lute shape for their arch-guitars. We might never
   know. The Grammatica painting shows only five courses on the fretboard,
   and this would be an odd thing to do for an archlute - and the painting
   is otherwise very detailed, so I think the artist was being accurate. I
   can see the desire of some baroque guitar players to want to play the
   role that their lute-playing colleagues were doing in the continuo
   section, playing bass lines and chords. Having an archlute in guitar
   tuning would be an obvious step for some, I guess.

   Anyway, I'm looking forward to experimenting with it for a week.

   Rob
   2008/8/23 Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Well - I have the Granata book and Gallot and so could send you some
 of the pieces if you haven't got these.   The Gallot has the strings
 on the fingerboard tuned to a major major common chord rather than
 the usual guitar intervals.
 I am bit curious about this though because according to Gary Boye
 there is a copy of Granata's 1651 book which has an additional
 engraved portrait of Granata with in the background what appears to
 be a guitar with extended bass strings.   I did query with him
 whether the instrument was guitar shaped rather than lute shaped.
 He said it was guitar shaped but couldn't find his copy of the
 illustration.  In his dissertation he gives the RISM sigla of the
 book as F:C.  I'm not sure whether by this he means the
 Conservatorio Library in Florence or an obscure library in France.
 Has anyone else seen this copy?   It also seems that Granata applied
 to be a super numerary lutenist to the Concerto Palatino of San
 Petronio in Bologna.
 Monica
 - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Vihuela [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:57 PM
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Chitarrone Francese

The German luthier, Wolfgang Emmerich has made a copy of the
   instrument
from the Grammatica painting, which some believe to be a Chitarrone
Francese - a sort of archlute for guitar players. The painting has
   only
five courses on the fretboard. Robert Spencer thought the music by
Fontanelli, the Sonate per il Chitarrone Francese, was for this
instrument. Richard Pinnell has identified the music of Granata and
Gallot also for this instrument.
Now, Wolfgang is visiting Edinburgh in September and is leaving the
instrument with me for a week before he takes it home. I hope to make
an mp3 or two and maybe a video of it before I hand it back. So, could
someone please send me a jpg or two of some pieces I might be able to
play on it?
I'm not in the market for such an instrument, but having it for a week
is very interesting. You can see pictures of the original painting on
Wolfgang's website:

  [1][7]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm -
 click on

archlute and scroll down.
Rob MacKillop

  --
 References
  1. [8]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   6. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   7. http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
   8. 

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone Francese

[Martyn Hodgson]

Are the 'basses' of this instrument set at the upper or lower octave?

Martyn


--- On Sun, 24/8/08, Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarrone Francese
 To: Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Vihuelalist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sunday, 24 August, 2008, 7:43 AM
 Thanks, Monica. I only have time for maybe one piece by each
 composer,
so if you could post me copies or jpgs that would be
 great.
 
Regarding the question of body shape - guitar or lute -
 I have no fixed
or learned opinion, but I imagine different luthiers
 tried different
things. The guitar shape is an obvious one to start
 with, as what we
are considering is a guitar with diapasons added.
 However, the baroque
guitar shape is not conducive to a longer bridge on the
 bass side. The
lute shape is better in this regard. So it might be
 possible that some
luthiers preferred a lute shape for their arch-guitars.
 We might never
know. The Grammatica painting shows only five courses on
 the fretboard,
and this would be an odd thing to do for an archlute -
 and the painting
is otherwise very detailed, so I think the artist was
 being accurate. I
can see the desire of some baroque guitar players to
 want to play the
role that their lute-playing colleagues were doing in
 the continuo
section, playing bass lines and chords. Having an
 archlute in guitar
tuning would be an obvious step for some, I guess.
 
Anyway, I'm looking forward to experimenting with it
 for a week.
 
Rob
2008/8/23 Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Well - I have the Granata book and Gallot and so could
 send you some
  of the pieces if you haven't got these.   The
 Gallot has the strings
  on the fingerboard tuned to a major major common chord
 rather than
  the usual guitar intervals.
  I am bit curious about this though because according
 to Gary Boye
  there is a copy of Granata's 1651 book which has
 an additional
  engraved portrait of Granata with in the background
 what appears to
  be a guitar with extended bass strings.   I did query
 with him
  whether the instrument was guitar shaped rather than
 lute shaped.
  He said it was guitar shaped but couldn't find his
 copy of the
  illustration.  In his dissertation he gives the RISM
 sigla of the
  book as F:C.  I'm not sure whether by this he
 means the
  Conservatorio Library in Florence or an obscure
 library in France.
  Has anyone else seen this copy?   It also seems that
 Granata applied
  to be a super numerary lutenist to the Concerto
 Palatino of San
  Petronio in Bologna.
  Monica
  - Original Message - From: Rob
 MacKillop
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Vihuela
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:57 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Chitarrone Francese
 
 The German luthier, Wolfgang Emmerich has made a copy
 of the
instrument
 from the Grammatica painting, which some believe to be
 a Chitarrone
 Francese - a sort of archlute for guitar players. The
 painting has
only
 five courses on the fretboard. Robert Spencer thought
 the music by
 Fontanelli, the Sonate per il Chitarrone Francese, was
 for this
 instrument. Richard Pinnell has identified the music of
 Granata and
 Gallot also for this instrument.
 Now, Wolfgang is visiting Edinburgh in September and is
 leaving the
 instrument with me for a week before he takes it home.
 I hope to make
 an mp3 or two and maybe a video of it before I hand it
 back. So, could
 someone please send me a jpg or two of some pieces I
 might be able to
 play on it?
 I'm not in the market for such an instrument, but
 having it for a week
 is very interesting. You can see pictures of the
 original painting on
 Wolfgang's website:
 
  
 [1][4]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
 -
  click on
 
 archlute and scroll down.
 Rob MacKillop
 
   --
  References
   1.
 [5]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
  To get on or off this list see list information at
 
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
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 References
 
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2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
4.
 http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
5.
 http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
6.
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone Francese

[Peedu Timo]

Here is one solution http://www.lucianofaria.com/
Go to the guitar page and scroll down a little. This may be somewhat late for 
earlier continuo, plus it's single strung and has six strings on fingerboard. 
Has anybody seen the original or picture of it?
 
Timo



Lähettäjä: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lähetetty: su 24.8.2008 9:43
Vastaanottaja: Monica Hall
Kopio: Vihuelalist
Aihe: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarrone Francese



   Thanks, Monica. I only have time for maybe one piece by each composer,
   so if you could post me copies or jpgs that would be great.

   Regarding the question of body shape - guitar or lute - I have no fixed
   or learned opinion, but I imagine different luthiers tried different
   things. The guitar shape is an obvious one to start with, as what we
   are considering is a guitar with diapasons added. However, the baroque
   guitar shape is not conducive to a longer bridge on the bass side. The
   lute shape is better in this regard. So it might be possible that some
   luthiers preferred a lute shape for their arch-guitars. We might never
   know. The Grammatica painting shows only five courses on the fretboard,
   and this would be an odd thing to do for an archlute - and the painting
   is otherwise very detailed, so I think the artist was being accurate. I
   can see the desire of some baroque guitar players to want to play the
   role that their lute-playing colleagues were doing in the continuo
   section, playing bass lines and chords. Having an archlute in guitar
   tuning would be an obvious step for some, I guess.

   Anyway, I'm looking forward to experimenting with it for a week.

   Rob
   2008/8/23 Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Well - I have the Granata book and Gallot and so could send you some
 of the pieces if you haven't got these.   The Gallot has the strings
 on the fingerboard tuned to a major major common chord rather than
 the usual guitar intervals.
 I am bit curious about this though because according to Gary Boye
 there is a copy of Granata's 1651 book which has an additional
 engraved portrait of Granata with in the background what appears to
 be a guitar with extended bass strings.   I did query with him
 whether the instrument was guitar shaped rather than lute shaped.
 He said it was guitar shaped but couldn't find his copy of the
 illustration.  In his dissertation he gives the RISM sigla of the
 book as F:C.  I'm not sure whether by this he means the
 Conservatorio Library in Florence or an obscure library in France.
 Has anyone else seen this copy?   It also seems that Granata applied
 to be a super numerary lutenist to the Concerto Palatino of San
 Petronio in Bologna.
 Monica
 - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Vihuela [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:57 PM
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Chitarrone Francese

The German luthier, Wolfgang Emmerich has made a copy of the
   instrument
from the Grammatica painting, which some believe to be a Chitarrone
Francese - a sort of archlute for guitar players. The painting has
   only
five courses on the fretboard. Robert Spencer thought the music by
Fontanelli, the Sonate per il Chitarrone Francese, was for this
instrument. Richard Pinnell has identified the music of Granata and
Gallot also for this instrument.
Now, Wolfgang is visiting Edinburgh in September and is leaving the
instrument with me for a week before he takes it home. I hope to make
an mp3 or two and maybe a video of it before I hand it back. So, could
someone please send me a jpg or two of some pieces I might be able to
play on it?
I'm not in the market for such an instrument, but having it for a week
is very interesting. You can see pictures of the original painting on
Wolfgang's website:

  [1][4]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm -
 click on

archlute and scroll down.
Rob MacKillop

  --
 References
  1. [5]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   4. http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
   5. http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone Francese

[Peedu Timo]

Would this then be a Chitarra Francese?  
http://www.renard-music.com/selectficheinstrument.php3?1000171 
https://okm.kuvalehdet.fi/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.renard-music.com/selectficheinstrument.php3?1000171
 


Timo







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[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone Francese

[Monica Hall]

Well - I have the Granata book and Gallot and so could send you some of the 
pieces if you haven't got these.   The Gallot has the strings on the 
fingerboard tuned to a major major common chord rather than the usual guitar 
intervals.


I am bit curious about this though because according to Gary Boye there is a 
copy of Granata's 1651 book which has an additional engraved portrait of 
Granata with in the background what appears to be a guitar with extended 
bass strings.   I did query with him whether the instrument was guitar 
shaped rather than lute shaped.   He said it was guitar shaped but couldn't 
find his copy of the illustration.  In his dissertation he gives the RISM 
sigla of the book as F:C.  I'm not sure whether by this he means the 
Conservatorio Library in Florence or an obscure library in France.


Has anyone else seen this copy?   It also seems that Granata applied to be a 
super numerary lutenist to the Concerto Palatino of San Petronio in Bologna.


Monica
- Original Message - 
From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Vihuela [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Chitarrone Francese



  The German luthier, Wolfgang Emmerich has made a copy of the instrument
  from the Grammatica painting, which some believe to be a Chitarrone
  Francese - a sort of archlute for guitar players. The painting has only
  five courses on the fretboard. Robert Spencer thought the music by
  Fontanelli, the Sonate per il Chitarrone Francese, was for this
  instrument. Richard Pinnell has identified the music of Granata and
  Gallot also for this instrument.

  Now, Wolfgang is visiting Edinburgh in September and is leaving the
  instrument with me for a week before he takes it home. I hope to make
  an mp3 or two and maybe a video of it before I hand it back. So, could
  someone please send me a jpg or two of some pieces I might be able to
  play on it?

  I'm not in the market for such an instrument, but having it for a week
  is very interesting. You can see pictures of the original painting on
  Wolfgang's website:

  [1]http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm - click on
  archlute and scroll down.

  Rob MacKillop

  --

References

  1. http://www.zupfinstrumente-emmerich.de/English/index.htm


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