[LUTE] Re: New frets
Hi Sean and all, Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late 1980s I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that I could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it with my thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I had no trouble with unclear notes. I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues of double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or more sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) and had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, but it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner fret on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if you wanted to go in for a bit of tastino! I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and might be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of the greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it. It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets (single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection? Best wishes, Martin Sean Smith wrote: Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. Sean On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Martin As previously discussed, double frets (a single piece not two guts) need a bit of time to 'bed in'. The loop closest to the stopping finger takes most of the wear whilst the other loop acts as the cut-off. Thus double frets also last longer than single. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/2/10, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 February, 2010, 8:04 Hi Sean and all, Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late 1980s I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that I could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it with my thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I had no trouble with unclear notes. I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues of double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or more sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) and had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, but it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner fret on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if you wanted to go in for a bit of tastino! I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and might be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of the greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it. It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets (single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection? Best wishes, Martin Sean Smith wrote: Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. Sean On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Martyn, Sean, and Martin
nbs= p; I have double frets on my 11c lute, and have had them
for more tha= n a year.
Stephen Gottlieb mentioned burnishing the first element of th= e double
fret, so it had presumably been slightly lowered (thus similar to =
Sean's double single frets?).
There may have been slight clarity issues,= at first, although I don't
recall that (well at first there was a slight p= roblem with the
loaded, until I used higher tension octaves, so that might = have
hidden such a problem) certainly at present the sound does not show th=
e uncleanness of a worn single, and there is still no sign of wear,
whats= oever.
I am sure that would not have been so with single frets.
= On the other hand the lowest frets do tend to slip, and the two
elements se= em very thin, so I am not sure that stability is the main
advantage, althou= gh there has been no tendance for slip on the
thicker frets.
Stephen= thought that double frets might give a slightly softer sound
(perhaps this= is the same as Sean's absorbs the high frequencies).
Again I can not say= whether that is so, as I have never used the lute
with singles.
All in= all I am very happy with them. It is such a relief just not to
having to c= hange them so frequently.
I thank Sean and Martyn for encouraging me at = the time to ask Stephen
to set my lute up like this.
It also pleased Ste= phen, I think to do so; although, I don't think it
was somethingfor which h= e was frequently asked.
Regards
Anthony
Message d'origine
De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
=C3=80 : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
Objet : [LUTE] Re: New frets
Date : 19/02/2010 11:06:05 CET
Martin
As previously discussed, double frets (a single piece not two guts= )
need a bit of time to 'bed in'. The loop closest to the stopping f=
inger
takes most of the wear whilst the other loop acts as the cut-off. =
Thus
double frets also last longer than single.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/2/10, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk= wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets
To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 February, 2010, 8:04
Hi Sean and all,
Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late 1=
980s
I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that= I
could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it wi=
th my
thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I h= ad
no
trouble with unclear notes.
I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single=
frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues= of
double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or m=
ore
sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) =
and
had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, =
but
it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's
double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner =
fret
on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if =
you
wanted to go in for a bit of tastino!
I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and m=
ight
be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of t=
he
greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an
especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the
theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it.=
br It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets
(single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) us=
ed
very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection?
Best wishes,
Martin
Sean Smith wrote:
Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies compr=
ehension
standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing th=
at w/
those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr.
I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to =
change
frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all =
out
before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time=
goes
by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing=
quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument.
Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for = the
lute
to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he=
br mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split.
Me= , I'm
an all afternoon kinda guy.
Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as c= lean
as
singles --just my opinion and I'm
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Martyn, --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. MH. --- On Thu, 18/2/10, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 18 February, 2010, 14:20 Hi All, The breakthrough for me came when I changed my method of fret knotting. I used to tie a slip knot (granny knot - a reef knot with the second turn the wrong way). Works fine for thin frets, and with smooth-finished gut, but otherwise the slip knot is not so willing to slip. So I tried the method someone suggested to me (Pat O'Brien?) which is to tie a single overhand knot near the end and pass the free end through it - the ultimate slip knot, not really a knot at all. Surprisingly, the gut has enough friction that when you pull this up it holds without slipping back, so you tighten it nearer the nut than you want to end up (a choix), trim off the free end and burn it down to lock it, then slide the fret up to where you want it. It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson [1]cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson [2]cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cstet...@smith.edu 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cstet...@smith.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Second attempt
Martyn, Sean, and Martin
I have double frets on my 11c lute, and have had them for more
than a year.
Stephen Gottlieb mentioned burnishing the first element of the double
fret, so it had presumably been slightly lowered (thus similar to
Sean's double single frets?).
There may have been slight clarity issues, at first, although I don't
recall that (well at first there was a slight problem with the loaded,
until I used higher tension octaves, so that might have hidden such a
problem) certainly at present the sound does not show the uncleanness
of a worn single, and there is still no sign of wear, whatsoever.
I am sure that would not have been so with single frets.
PARA
On the other hand the lowest frets do tend to slip, and the two
elements seem very thin, so I am not sure that stability is the main
advantage, although there has been no tendance for slip on the thicker
frets.
PARA
Stephen thought that double frets might give a slightly softer sound
(perhaps this is the same as Sean's absorbs the high frequencies).
Again I can not say whether that is so, as I have never used the lute
with singles.
All in all I am very happy with them. It is such a relief just not to
having to change them so frequently.
I thank Sean and Martyn for encouraging me at the time to ask Stephen
to set my lute up like this.
It also pleased Stephen, I think to do so; although, I don't think it
was something for which he was frequently asked.
Regards
Anthony
PARA
Message d'origine
De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
Objet : [LUTE] Re: New frets
Date : 19/02/2010 11:06:05 CET
Martin
As previously discussed, double frets (a single piece not two guts)
need a bit of time to 'bed in'. The loop closest to the stopping
finger
takes most of the wear whilst the other loop acts as the cut-off.
Thus
double frets also last longer than single.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/2/10, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets
To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 February, 2010, 8:04
Hi Sean and all,
Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late
1980s
I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that I
could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it with
my
thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I had
no
trouble with unclear notes.
I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single
frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues of
double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or more
sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) and
had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, but
it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's
double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner
fret
on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if you
wanted to go in for a bit of tastino!
I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and
might
be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of the
greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an
especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the
theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it.
It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets
(single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used
very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection?
Best wishes,
Martin
Sean Smith wrote:
Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies
comprehension
standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that
w/
those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr.
I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change
frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out
before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time
goes
by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing
quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument.
Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the
lute
to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he
mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me,
I'm
an all afternoon kinda guy.
Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean
as
singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have
it down. Personally, I think the extended
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Hi Martin and Chris, So we're all going through a long on-again, off-again experiment with doubled frets. Interesting. I'd like to use doubled frets if that's what was done and, as usual, I expect the advantages aren't immediately obvious. For now I don't know when I'll come back to them and there are plusses though hard to define --especially at 5:30 am. Yes, I've never understood what makes the paintings' frets look smaller in diameter. I used to think it was the painters' whim but it's too prevalent to ignore. Something doesn't add up and I don't know what it is. Chris: Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. Yes, I agree here (and this isn't meant to be any kind of slight to our stringmakers and their extensive RD). Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi Sean and all, Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late 1980s I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that I could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it with my thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I had no trouble with unclear notes. I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues of double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or more sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) and had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, but it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner fret on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if you wanted to go in for a bit of tastino! I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and might be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of the greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it. It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets (single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection? Best wishes, Martin Sean Smith wrote: Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. Sean On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
To All: I think Chris is on to something regarding the nature of the material. Old strings were produced, twisted and 'extruded' using a simpler technology resulting in a less uniform result. That is why strings came in bundles with probably greater lengths than we are used to. Lutenists were advised to find the most consistent and uniform section of a long string for tuning to a true pitch, and the rest was likely used for frets. There are many aspects of the way we approach the instrument and the music today that I'm sure are entirely inauthentic. For instance, playing a dance piece with variations in a large concert hall with polite people sitting quietly, and with such blinding un-danceable speed that polyphony and phrasing are entirely obscured. What possibly might have been the hurry? Call of nature? Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:46:09 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: lutesm...@mac.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets Hi Martin and Chris, So we're all going through a long on-again, off-again experiment with doubled frets. Interesting. I'd like to use doubled frets if that's what was done and, as usual, I expect the advantages aren't immediately obvious. For now I don't know when I'll come back to them and there are plusses though hard to define --especially at 5:30 am. Yes, I've never understood what makes the paintings' frets look smaller in diameter. I used to think it was the painters' whim but it's too prevalent to ignore. Something doesn't add up and I don't know what it is. Chris: Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. Yes, I agree here (and this isn't meant to be any kind of slight to our stringmakers and their extensive RD). Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi Sean and all, Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late 1980s I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that I could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it with my thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I had no trouble with unclear notes. I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues of double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or more sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) and had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, but it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner fret on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if you wanted to go in for a bit of tastino! I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and might be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of the greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it. It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets (single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection? Best wishes, Martin Sean Smith wrote: Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. Sean On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite nice. It is certainly an important mantra: THEY WERE NOT CRAZY, they were not crazy... alexander r. Martyn, The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Good point, Alexander. There could easily be an aesthetic point to a slight bray and I confess to enjoying this aspect of double frets. Although unrelated to renaissance music as we know it, many Indian instruments like the vina, sitar and tamboura have a braying mechanism just north of the bridge. A clear ringing string is avoided in favor of a buzz that causes the ring to mutate over its timespan. In other words, a long note changes over its life adding sonic textures outside the player's control. Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 6:54 AM, alexander wrote: Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite nice. It is certainly an important mantra: THEY WERE NOT CRAZY, they were not crazy... alexander r. Martyn, The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Getting very interesting- I now remember (it was so long ago) when I got my first lute from the builder (Hugh Gough, NYC, 1973 approx.) he instructed me in the double fret method, not super thin but certainly thinner than today's typical singles- he also advised wetting them for a minute in warm water to make them more flexible, and then they additionally tighten a bit upon drying. Of course, that would be unnecessary if the gut was already naturally flexible. The aesthetics of sound is interesting- I posted a thought about that, (forgot to copy it to the list) relating it to the Capirola reference to low action set deliberately for a little buzz. Different sound world back then- and of course, Ron Andrico's points on tempo may be very well taken; I know in my own case there has often been far too much hurry, sometimes literally the pace of life- I have 20 minutes to play/practice, then run off to work- staying on top of too many instruments and styles in one lifetime also adds confusion and hurry. And when do my wife and I ever go out to dance pavans, galliards, voltas? Weiss never worried about maintaining his Renaissance lutes techniques, Francesco never had to keep up his 11 course lute, and his archlute, and also get the Volvo to the mechanic by 7:30 Tuesday morning, Dan Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite nice. It is certainly an important mantra: THEY WERE NOT CRAZY, they were not crazy... alexander r. Martyn, The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: New frets
On the other hand, they were also not blissfully sitting still all the time- a contemporary account of the great Pietro Bono describes his playing as ...Storming from the very bottom to the top of the lute's range... and other words suggestive of the technical level of a Joe Pass or Django Rheinhardt, at least in the improvised intabs of popular standards. Similar descriptions of other famous players of those times are extant- can't recall at the moment. they could certainly move when they wanted to, and undoubtedly better than us. Dan There are many aspects of the way we approach the instrument and the music today that I'm sure are entirely inauthentic. For instance, playing a dance piece with variations in a large concert hall with polite people sitting quietly, and with such blinding un-danceable speed that polyphony and phrasing are entirely obscured. What possibly might have been the hurry? Call of nature? Ron Andrico -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
- or we use rather too large frets these days. Dowland's fret sizes are small compared to present practice and, perhaps, were required to 'set a lute fine' ie very small distance betqeen string and fingerboard even at 8/9th fret. I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about 'rubbery'frets. Mh --- On Fri, 19/2/10, chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: chriswi...@yahoo.com chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk, Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 19 February, 2010, 13:26 Martyn, --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. MH. --- On Thu, 18/2/10, Martin Shepherd [2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd [3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 18 February, 2010, 14:20 Hi All, The breakthrough for me came when I changed my method of fret knotting. I used to tie a slip knot (granny knot - a reef knot with the second turn the wrong way). Works fine for thin frets, and with smooth-finished gut, but otherwise the slip knot is not so willing to slip. So I tried the method someone suggested to me (Pat O'Brien?) which is to tie a single overhand knot near the end and pass the free end through it - the ultimate slip knot, not really a knot at all. Surprisingly, the gut has enough friction that when you pull this up it holds without slipping back, so you tighten it nearer the nut than you want to end up (a choix), trim off the free end and burn it down to lock it, then slide the fret up to where you want it. It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson [1][5]cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson [2][6]cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List [3][7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Thanks, Sean. A bray effect might be good - it sounds good on a harp, and strangely seems to increase the duration of the sound - but have you tried to achieve it with a lute? The easiest way is to thread a piece of paper or something between the strings at the bridge end of things. To get *all* the frets and open strings to buzz by simply having a low action/appropriate-sized frets is a tall order (because some notes will buzz much more than others, some will not sound at all). Is that really what Capirola had in mind? Especially since he also talks (apparently) about raising(?) the nut to bring a lute to life, or is that a misinterpretation? We have a lot to learn about this Martin Sean Smith wrote: Good point, Alexander. There could easily be an aesthetic point to a slight bray and I confess to enjoying this aspect of double frets. Although unrelated to renaissance music as we know it, many Indian instruments like the vina, sitar and tamboura have a braying mechanism just north of the bridge. A clear ringing string is avoided in favor of a buzz that causes the ring to mutate over its timespan. In other words, a long note changes over its life adding sonic textures outside the player's control. Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 6:54 AM, alexander wrote: Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite nice. It is certainly an important mantra: THEY WERE NOT CRAZY, they were not crazy... alexander r. Martyn, The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the tiny, tiny double frets seen in paintings. Chris - has experience with both double and single frets. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used very thin It seems to me that very thin frets combined with presumed lower tension strings would create more than the subtle buzz of a bray effect. Anybody tried it? Regards, Leonard Williams On 2/19/10 3:04 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Hi Sean and all, Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late 1980s I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found that I could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing it with my thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them in. I had no trouble with unclear notes. I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues of double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or more sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same lute) and had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two places, but it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used Sean's double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a thinner fret on the nut side and would also make it easier to separate them if you wanted to go in for a bit of tastino! I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and might be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because of the greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it. It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets (single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection? Best wishes, Martin Sean Smith wrote: Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. Sean On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Hi Martin, I know you play quite a bit of this early stuff, that is, pieces that really have their roots in the previous century and have seen some of the unconventional characters found in it so may I bounce these ideas off you? Actually despite all the baroque topics I daily see here I hope there are still a few more enthousiasts out there ;^) I'm going out on a limb here but from what I gather, the Capirola pieces are all taken from the same repertory that fed the plectrum lutes. Capirola is obviously a generation later but the variety of tone colors available to plectrum would have still been in everyone's ears. This would have allowed (and encouraged) less emphasis on what we are now traditionally taught as the lute's clarity. In the back of my mind I wonder if our notions of even these standards are a red herring. Another point from the music's point of view: If we are to bring out one voice over another we can do it through volume and/or color. If all the lute/fret intersections have different colors it would be easier to emphasize as we are constantly hit w/ different colors for all the notes. Of course this leads to the question of 'If they're all different what makes anything stand out?'. I still think it works to our favor. Consider a vocal trio w/ all voices nearly identical compared to a variety of voice colors. Remember, these vocal works are rarely created in the same mold of later Parisian chansons where homogeny and repetion are the norm. Earlier works contained vocal parts with specific purposes (how the tenor relates to the cantus, etc), histories (Agricola's addition to Ghizeghem's etc etc) and textures (every human voice really is different and differs again, note to note). Also, the first lute polyphonies were originally on two instruments w/ 2 different players which again varied the tone colors. I don't think we should denigrate this buzzing string or that slightly dead fret but use them to whatever effects might work to bring out the music's --or the musician's-- character. Sorry this is a little rambling (I'm at work) but I think Capirola, Spinacino and other earlies played to this variety. best regards, Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks, Sean. A bray effect might be good - it sounds good on a harp, and strangely seems to increase the duration of the sound - but have you tried to achieve it with a lute? The easiest way is to thread a piece of paper or something between the strings at the bridge end of things. To get *all* the frets and open strings to buzz by simply having a low action/appropriate-sized frets is a tall order (because some notes will buzz much more than others, some will not sound at all). Is that really what Capirola had in mind? Especially since he also talks (apparently) about raising(?) the nut to bring a lute to life, or is that a misinterpretation? We have a lot to learn about this Martin Sean Smith wrote: Good point, Alexander. There could easily be an aesthetic point to a slight bray and I confess to enjoying this aspect of double frets. Although unrelated to renaissance music as we know it, many Indian instruments like the vina, sitar and tamboura have a braying mechanism just north of the bridge. A clear ringing string is avoided in favor of a buzz that causes the ring to mutate over its timespan. In other words, a long note changes over its life adding sonic textures outside the player's control. Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 6:54 AM, alexander wrote: Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite nice. It is certainly an important mantra: THEY WERE NOT CRAZY, they were not crazy... alexander r. Martyn, The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience. Time to wake up that sleeping dog! Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut material had quite different physical properties than our modern reconstructions. This probably explains Mace's emphasis on stretching frets before putting them on. Perhaps modern gut is hard/stiff enough to maintain its shape and allow for single frets. On the other hand, if period gut was sort of rubbery, it would therefore need to be doubled up in order to provide enough of a substantial bump on the neck to effectively stop a string. This would in turn account for the
[LUTE] Re: New frets
One factor to consider in tone color is that the Ganassi recorders and viols represent a consort with a fine, close voiced blend presumably similar to a vocal performance, but it is also clear that this was not exclusively the renaissance ideal, as combinations such as lute and harp (close in sound, yet different) harp and organ (VERY different) run the gamut of color blends for performance. I'm not entirely convinced that the first lute plyphonies were for two lutes; it may well be, and perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see it reflected in the historical record. Speculations about Robertsbridge codex, for example, seem not to be based on any specific historical record, and certainly there is plenty of practical evidence that the earliset polyphony of any kind, including ductia, conductus, even acquitainian polyphony can be easily played on one lute. As for the buzzing, bring it on! dt At 02:52 PM 2/19/2010, you wrote: Hi Martin, I know you play quite a bit of this early stuff, that is, pieces that really have their roots in the previous century and have seen some of the unconventional characters found in it so may I bounce these ideas off you? Actually despite all the baroque topics I daily see here I hope there are still a few more enthousiasts out there ;^) I'm going out on a limb here but from what I gather, the Capirola pieces are all taken from the same repertory that fed the plectrum lutes. Capirola is obviously a generation later but the variety of tone colors available to plectrum would have still been in everyone's ears. This would have allowed (and encouraged) less emphasis on what we are now traditionally taught as the lute's clarity. In the back of my mind I wonder if our notions of even these standards are a red herring. Another point from the music's point of view: If we are to bring out one voice over another we can do it through volume and/or color. If all the lute/fret intersections have different colors it would be easier to emphasize as we are constantly hit w/ different colors for all the notes. Of course this leads to the question of 'If they're all different what makes anything stand out?'. I still think it works to our favor. Consider a vocal trio w/ all voices nearly identical compared to a variety of voice colors. Remember, these vocal works are rarely created in the same mold of later Parisian chansons where homogeny and repetion are the norm. Earlier works contained vocal parts with specific purposes (how the tenor relates to the cantus, etc), histories (Agricola's addition to Ghizeghem's etc etc) and textures (every human voice really is different and differs again, note to note). Also, the first lute polyphonies were originally on two instruments w/ 2 different players which again varied the tone colors. I don't think we should denigrate this buzzing string or that slightly dead fret but use them to whatever effects might work to bring out the music's --or the musician's-- character. Sorry this is a little rambling (I'm at work) but I think Capirola, Spinacino and other earlies played to this variety. best regards, Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks, Sean. A bray effect might be good - it sounds good on a harp, and strangely seems to increase the duration of the sound - but have you tried to achieve it with a lute? The easiest way is to thread a piece of paper or something between the strings at the bridge end of things. To get *all* the frets and open strings to buzz by simply having a low action/appropriate-sized frets is a tall order (because some notes will buzz much more than others, some will not sound at all). Is that really what Capirola had in mind? Especially since he also talks (apparently) about raising(?) the nut to bring a lute to life, or is that a misinterpretation? We have a lot to learn about this Martin Sean Smith wrote: Good point, Alexander. There could easily be an aesthetic point to a slight bray and I confess to enjoying this aspect of double frets. Although unrelated to renaissance music as we know it, many Indian instruments like the vina, sitar and tamboura have a braying mechanism just north of the bridge. A clear ringing string is avoided in favor of a buzz that causes the ring to mutate over its timespan. In other words, a long note changes over its life adding sonic textures outside the player's control. Sean On Feb 19, 2010, at 6:54 AM, alexander wrote: Well! As the jumping into hot water already started... The double frets that we know of, came into use at the same period as the bray harp, and the bray attachments in virginals. Again, aesthetics of the sound, it was considered that a hard object slightly touching the string near its' cut-off point makes sustain longer, and the sound, well, more beautiful. When this effect is taken into consideration and the frets tied with this idea, and the string tension light enough for it to work, the results can be quite
[LUTE] Re: New frets
The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Hi All, The breakthrough for me came when I changed my method of fret knotting. I used to tie a slip knot (granny knot - a reef knot with the second turn the wrong way). Works fine for thin frets, and with smooth-finished gut, but otherwise the slip knot is not so willing to slip. So I tried the method someone suggested to me (Pat O'Brien?) which is to tie a single overhand knot near the end and pass the free end through it - the ultimate slip knot, not really a knot at all. Surprisingly, the gut has enough friction that when you pull this up it holds without slipping back, so you tighten it nearer the nut than you want to end up (a choix), trim off the free end and burn it down to lock it, then slide the fret up to where you want it. It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Do it twice! Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
This is the knot I mostly use, I saw it in Germany in th '70s so it has been in use for a while. Once, when tying this know, I was burning the end with a lighter, and the lighter had an unusually long flame, which instantly incinerated all seven of my long strings on the theorbo. Oh for a photo of that moment. dt At 06:20 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: Hi All, The breakthrough for me came when I changed my method of fret knotting. I used to tie a slip knot (granny knot - a reef knot with the second turn the wrong way). Works fine for thin frets, and with smooth-finished gut, but otherwise the slip knot is not so willing to slip. So I tried the method someone suggested to me (Pat O'Brien?) which is to tie a single overhand knot near the end and pass the free end through it - the ultimate slip knot, not really a knot at all. Surprisingly, the gut has enough friction that when you pull this up it holds without slipping back, so you tighten it nearer the nut than you want to end up (a choix), trim off the free end and burn it down to lock it, then slide the fret up to where you want it. It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
And I thought the singed spots in the lacquer on my 10c. were bad! We missed so many good photo-ops back in the old days! Some day, though, everyone will have their entire lives on video. Best, and keep on playin' CS David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2/18/2010 3:16 PM This is the knot I mostly use, I saw it in Germany in th '70s so it has been in use for a while. Once, when tying this know, I was burning the end with a lighter, and the lighter had an unusually long flame, which instantly incinerated all seven of my long strings on the theorbo. Oh for a photo of that moment. dt At 06:20 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: Hi All, The breakthrough for me came when I changed my method of fret knotting. I used to tie a slip knot (granny knot - a reef knot with the second turn the wrong way). Works fine for thin frets, and with smooth-finished gut, but otherwise the slip knot is not so willing to slip. So I tried the method someone suggested to me (Pat O'Brien?) which is to tie a single overhand knot near the end and pass the free end through it - the ultimate slip knot, not really a knot at all. Surprisingly, the gut has enough friction that when you pull this up it holds without slipping back, so you tighten it nearer the nut than you want to end up (a choix), trim off the free end and burn it down to lock it, then slide the fret up to where you want it. It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Yes, double frets are historical, but not two separate frets tied in the same spot. The historical double frets are tied with one piece of gut (I used to know how to make the knot!), but you can't remove just one of them. Everybody knew the single frets were unHIP, but so much easier, and made the tone clearer, too. Best, CS. Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net 2/18/2010 3:13 PM Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. Sean On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Do it twice! HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin' Dan Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to come back to the single fret club. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Double frets indeed - as generally used historically and with the advantage of a simple elegant knot to boot. The advantages of double loop frets have been explained in this forum before. The continuing, if strange, fascination single loops seems to defy historical evidence and practical experience MH. --- On Thu, 18/2/10, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 18 February, 2010, 14:20 Hi All, The breakthrough for me came when I changed my method of fret knotting. I used to tie a slip knot (granny knot - a reef knot with the second turn the wrong way). Works fine for thin frets, and with smooth-finished gut, but otherwise the slip knot is not so willing to slip. So I tried the method someone suggested to me (Pat O'Brien?) which is to tie a single overhand knot near the end and pass the free end through it - the ultimate slip knot, not really a knot at all. Surprisingly, the gut has enough friction that when you pull this up it holds without slipping back, so you tighten it nearer the nut than you want to end up (a choix), trim off the free end and burn it down to lock it, then slide the fret up to where you want it. It's very neat, too. But as for double frets. Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: The gut should be pre-stretched before fitting. Mace (1676 p 69) confirms this and provides good practical advice: ' And you will find, that the first Fret, will be ever the hardest to Tye well on, for two Reasons. First, because it is the Thickest, therefore not so ready to ply, and stretch. 2sly. Because there is but a little narrower room above It, by reason it is so near the Nutt: Therefore you must be the more careful , to stretch it very well, before you settle It.' He also recommends tying it higher (ie to wards the nut) and stretching by forcing down to its alotted position a number of times: 'Thus do it three or four times, till at last you find it stiff,' Finally he suggests a second knot to prevent any possible slipping: '... you are (after all stretching) to Tye it, of another hard Knot, and then it is firmly fast'. MH --- On Wed, 17/2/10, Christopher Stetson [1]cstet...@smith.edu wrote: From: Christopher Stetson [2]cstet...@smith.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets To: Lute List [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 20:35 Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cstet...@smith.edu 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cstet...@smith.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
You can also tighten loose frets by doing a similar thing: pull the fret toward the nut, then loosen the knot and burn it down a few millimeters. Then put the fret back in place and it will be tighter. -Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets Something you can do to improve worn frets if you're short on time: loosen the fret a little by sliding it toward the nut, then turn it slightly on the neck so the worn parts are between courses. Slide it back to pitch. Leonard Williams On 2/14/10 6:22 PM, nedma...@aol.com nedma...@aol.com wrote: Having just replaced all the frets on an instrument for the first time (buzzing problems) I was pleasantly surprised at the difference in the clarity of the sound of the instrument. A significant increase, unless my ears are mistaken. (Since I bought the instrument used, I don't know how long the old frets had been on). Thinking about it, this does make sense, the new frets being harder than the old worn frets. I'm wondering if performing players find it beneficial to change their frets often. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
I'm also going to buy new frets, but i still don't know which diameter to take now i use 0.95-85-75-65 on my 10c and 85-75-65-55 on my 7c. But i think they are not too thick for my taste. So in fact I have two questions about it (think I already asked, but I can't remember my own name today :-P ) 1. Moving to thicker frets need any special preparation? I think I will go for 110,100,95,80 for 10c and 100, 90, 80, 70 for 7c. 2. well...after remembering it, i don't have second question... On Feb 17, 2010, at 11:13 AM, sterling price wrote: You can also tighten loose frets by doing a similar thing: pull the fret toward the nut, then loosen the knot and burn it down a few millimeters. Then put the fret back in place and it will be tighter. -Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets Something you can do to improve worn frets if you're short on time: loosen the fret a little by sliding it toward the nut, then turn it slightly on the neck so the worn parts are between courses. Slide it back to pitch. Leonard Williams On 2/14/10 6:22 PM, nedma...@aol.com nedma...@aol.com wrote: Having just replaced all the frets on an instrument for the first time (buzzing problems) I was pleasantly surprised at the difference in the clarity of the sound of the instrument. A significant increase, unless my ears are mistaken. (Since I bought the instrument used, I don't know how long the old frets had been on).Thinking about it, this does make sense, the new frets being harder than the old worn frets. I'm wondering if performing players find it beneficial to change their frets often. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com 2/17/2010 4:13 AM You can also tighten loose frets by doing a similar thing: pull the fret toward the nut, then loosen the knot and burn it down a few millimeters. Then put the fret back in place and it will be tighter. -Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets Something you can do to improve worn frets if you're short on time: loosen the fret a little by sliding it toward the nut, then turn it slightly on the neck so the worn parts are between courses. Slide it back to pitch. Leonard Williams On 2/14/10 6:22 PM, nedma...@aol.com nedma...@aol.com wrote: Having just replaced all the frets on an instrument for the first time (buzzing problems) I was pleasantly surprised at the difference in the clarity of the sound of the instrument. A significant increase, unless my ears are mistaken. (Since I bought the instrument used, I don't know how long the old frets had been on).Thinking about it, this does make sense, the new frets being harder than the old worn frets. I'm wondering if performing players find it beneficial to change their frets often. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: New frets
A good needle-nose pliers, or locking surgical forceps (hemostat), to roll the tightening end on, instead of trying to pull it by fingers. Tremendous force can be applied this way (carefully, hopefully). After tightening squeeze the fret firmly with fingers, to keep it tight, while finishing the knot. Drying the fret material beforehand helps as well (hair drier or such). alexander r. On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:35:05 -0500 Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
You can also tighten frets after they are in place by slipping some sort of wedge underneath. I make little notched wedges in my shop, but a short section from the end of a round toothpick also works pretty well (although you can stab your self with the sharp end if you aren't careful...). Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of alexander Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 2:32 PM To: Christopher Stetson Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets A good needle-nose pliers, or locking surgical forceps (hemostat), to roll the tightening end on, instead of trying to pull it by fingers. Tremendous force can be applied this way (carefully, hopefully). After tightening squeeze the fret firmly with fingers, to keep it tight, while finishing the knot. Drying the fret material beforehand helps as well (hair drier or such). alexander r. On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:35:05 -0500 Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
On 2/17/10 5:32 PM, alexander voka...@verizon.net wrote: A good needle-nose pliers, or locking surgical forceps (hemostat), to roll the tightening end on, instead of trying to pull it by fingers. Tremendous force can be applied this way (carefully, hopefully). Enough force, in fact, that I have occasionally left grooves on the neck where the knot of the over-tightened fret dug into the wood when I slid the fret into place! Fortunately, it's on the back side along with the shims for loose frets and dots for f and h; only I will ever know (until now). Leonard After tightening squeeze the fret firmly with fingers, to keep it tight, while finishing the knot. Drying the fret material beforehand helps as well (hair drier or such). alexander r. On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:35:05 -0500 Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: Neat tricks, Sterling and Leonard! They've allowed me to yet again put off refretting. While we're here, does any have any tricks for getting and/or keeping the 1st fret really tight? Best to all, Chris. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Something you can do to improve worn frets if you're short on time: loosen the fret a little by sliding it toward the nut, then turn it slightly on the neck so the worn parts are between courses. Slide it back to pitch. Leonard Williams On 2/14/10 6:22 PM, nedma...@aol.com nedma...@aol.com wrote: Having just replaced all the frets on an instrument for the first time (buzzing problems) I was pleasantly surprised at the difference in the clarity of the sound of the instrument. A significant increase, unless my ears are mistaken. (Since I bought the instrument used, I don't know how long the old frets had been on).Thinking about it, this does make sense, the new frets being harder than the old worn frets. I'm wondering if performing players find it beneficial to change their frets often. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New frets
Beneficial ..Absolutely! Often? -Ouch! I should have fewer instruments, or more free time. But the worse they get, the more you appreciate it when you finally do change those funky, ratty old frets. It really does get easier to change frets the more often you do them. When is an interesting dilemma- your mileage depends on how hard and often you drive, sweaty fingers make this more interesting for some people. Make sure that fret gut goes under ALL the strings before you tighten tie them. Dan Having just replaced all the frets on an instrument for the first time (buzzing problems) I was pleasantly surprised at the difference in the clarity of the sound of the instrument. A significant increase, unless my ears are mistaken. (Since I bought the instrument used, I don't know how long the old frets had been on).Thinking about it, this does make sense, the new frets being harder than the old worn frets. I'm wondering if performing players find it beneficial to change their frets often. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
