[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Greetings Mathias, I suspect you are familiar but for those without facsimile on hand, the Dalla Casa pieces mostly specify only arcileuto francese and are in two-staff systems. Where ensemble music is specified, it states mandolino or mandola with accompaniment by arcileuto francese. The duo music is also in two-staff systems with no discernable difference from the assumed solo music. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of T-Online Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:49 AM To: 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Dalla Casa can be taken as ensemble music, not all of it is solo. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von howard posner Gesendet: Montag, 3. Januar 2011 22:08 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:16 PM, franco pavan wrote: Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco I think by pieces for Italian archlute Franco means ensemble music. There is solo archlute music in tablature, such as Zamboni's book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Hello Eugene, Thank you for clarifying this! It's true there is no discernable difference between the two-staff-systems with solo music and with ensemble music in dalla Casa, at first glance. That's why I first took the pieces, signed with mandolin, to be arrangements of ensemble music for the solo lute. Yet once I tried them, I soon noticed voice crossings between the staffs all over the pieces. Last September, I was lucky enough to play some of the music with Susanne Herre, mandolin. She is a marvelous player, and I realized that so is the music. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Eugene C. Braig IV Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. Januar 2011 18:19 An: 'Lute List' Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Greetings Mathias, I suspect you are familiar but for those without facsimile on hand, the Dalla Casa pieces mostly specify only arcileuto francese and are in two-staff systems. Where ensemble music is specified, it states mandolino or mandola with accompaniment by arcileuto francese. The duo music is also in two-staff systems with no discernable difference from the assumed solo music. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of T-Online Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:49 AM To: 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Dalla Casa can be taken as ensemble music, not all of it is solo. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von howard posner Gesendet: Montag, 3. Januar 2011 22:08 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:16 PM, franco pavan wrote: Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco I think by pieces for Italian archlute Franco means ensemble music. There is solo archlute music in tablature, such as Zamboni's book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Dalla Casa can be taken as ensemble music, not all of it is solo. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von howard posner Gesendet: Montag, 3. Januar 2011 22:08 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:16 PM, franco pavan wrote: Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco I think by pieces for Italian archlute Franco means ensemble music. There is solo archlute music in tablature, such as Zamboni's book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Dear Lucas, It's available in an edition by the late Peter Segal from Productions d'Oz in Ottawa (or thereabouts) (score and parts, with realized continuo). Peter was a solid scholar and the edition should be very good. [1]http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html# The score (and parts on special order?) are also available in Gian Francesco Malipiero, ed., Le Opere . . . Vivaldi. Tomo 62 (Milan: Edizioni Ricordi, 1949; Reprint 1991). Most good music libraries will have the complete Malipiero edition. It's over-edited, but editorial changes are clearly marked. Surely you must know someone in Milan who could pick up the parts for you. Ricordi was opposite the conference hotel, iirc. The Malipiero number (M 62) is essential if you order the score or try to find it in a library. Other numbers re RV (Ryom Verzeichnis) 93, Pincherle (P209) and Fanna (F XII no. 15). You seem to be busy, which is always good news. Charlotte joins me in sending all best wishes for the New Year, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Lucas Harris [2]lucashar...@rogers.com To: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 10:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] RV93 materials? Happy New Year, pluckers! Does anybody have good materials for the Vivaldi D major lute concerto RV93 (i.e., score, parts, lute part in notes or tab) which they'd be willing to share with me? 1,000 thank yous Best, Lucas Harris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html 2. mailto:lucashar...@rogers.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Try to follow this link: http://www.seicorde.it/music/viv_conc.pdf bw giulio Messaggio originale Da: arthurjn...@verizon.net Data: 03/01/2011 9.03 A: Lucas Harrislucashar...@rogers.com, Lute Listl...@cs.dartmouth. edu Ogg: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Dear Lucas, It's available in an edition by the late Peter Segal from Productions d'Oz in Ottawa (or thereabouts) (score and parts, with realized continuo). Peter was a solid scholar and the edition should be very good. [1]http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html# The score (and parts on special order?) are also available in Gian Francesco Malipiero, ed., Le Opere . . . Vivaldi. Tomo 62 (Milan: Edizioni Ricordi, 1949; Reprint 1991). Most good music libraries will have the complete Malipiero edition. It's over-edited, but editorial changes are clearly marked. Surely you must know someone in Milan who could pick up the parts for you. Ricordi was opposite the conference hotel, iirc. The Malipiero number (M 62) is essential if you order the score or try to find it in a library. Other numbers re RV (Ryom Verzeichnis) 93, Pincherle (P209) and Fanna (F XII no. 15). You seem to be busy, which is always good news. Charlotte joins me in sending all best wishes for the New Year, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Lucas Harris [2]lucashar...@rogers.com To: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 10:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] RV93 materials? Happy New Year, pluckers! Does anybody have good materials for the Vivaldi D major lute concerto RV93 (i.e., score, parts, lute part in notes or tab) which they'd be willing to share with me? 1,000 thank yous Best, Lucas Harris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html 2. mailto:lucashar...@rogers.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Yes, the Segal edition is very good. ed At 02:03 AM 1/3/2011, A. J. Ness wrote: Dear Lucas, It's available in an edition by the late Peter Segal from Productions d'Oz in Ottawa (or thereabouts) (score and parts, with realized continuo). Peter was a solid scholar and the edition should be very good. [1]http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html# The score (and parts on special order?) are also available in Gian Francesco Malipiero, ed., Le Opere . . . Vivaldi. Tomo 62 (Milan: Edizioni Ricordi, 1949; Reprint 1991). Most good music libraries will have the complete Malipiero edition. It's over-edited, but editorial changes are clearly marked. Surely you must know someone in Milan who could pick up the parts for you. Ricordi was opposite the conference hotel, iirc. The Malipiero number (M 62) is essential if you order the score or try to find it in a library. Other numbers re RV (Ryom Verzeichnis) 93, Pincherle (P209) and Fanna (F XII no. 15). You seem to be busy, which is always good news. Charlotte joins me in sending all best wishes for the New Year, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Lucas Harris [2]lucashar...@rogers.com To: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 10:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] RV93 materials? Happy New Year, pluckers! Does anybody have good materials for the Vivaldi D major lute concerto RV93 (i.e., score, parts, lute part in notes or tab) which they'd be willing to share with me? 1,000 thank yous Best, Lucas Harris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html 2. mailto:lucashar...@rogers.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
I have heard many recordings of the guitar version with full orchestra, and I havealso performed the piece on guitar with full orchestra. Guitars and lutes were not designed for this. Even then I wanted a facsimile of the original, but was unable to locate one. Now that I am dabbling in the lute world I would like to re-visit this piece. Questions: 1. Given the time period, would it be most historically accurate to perform this on a baroque lute in baroque tuning? Or could one get by with an 8 course renaissance instrument? 2. Would Vivaldi have written standard notation that a lutenist would then have entabulated according to the instrument in their possession at the time? 3. For correct volume and tonal balance, what would be the most appropriate (and historically correct) number of violins, etc.? String trio? Two per desk?... 4. Would anyone have a digital version of the autograph that they would be willing to share? I look forward to your collective wisdom ; ) Thanks, Tom Yes, the Segal edition is very good. ed At 02:03 AM 1/3/2011, A. J. Ness wrote: Dear Lucas, It's available in an edition by the late Peter Segal from Productions d'Oz in Ottawa (or thereabouts) (score and parts, with realized continuo). Peter was a solid scholar and the edition should be very good. [1]http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html# The score (and parts on special order?) are also available in Gian Francesco Malipiero, ed., Le Opere . . . Vivaldi. Tomo 62 (Milan: Edizioni Ricordi, 1949; Reprint 1991). Most good music libraries will have the complete Malipiero edition. It's over-edited, but editorial changes are clearly marked. Surely you must know someone in Milan who could pick up the parts for you. Ricordi was opposite the conference hotel, iirc. The Malipiero number (M 62) is essential if you order the score or try to find it in a library. Other numbers re RV (Ryom Verzeichnis) 93, Pincherle (P209) and Fanna (F XII no. 15). You seem to be busy, which is always good news. Charlotte joins me in sending all best wishes for the New Year, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Lucas Harris [2]lucashar...@rogers.com To: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 10:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] RV93 materials? Happy New Year, pluckers! Does anybody have good materials for the Vivaldi D major lute concerto RV93 (i.e., score, parts, lute part in notes or tab) which they'd be willing to share with me? 1,000 thank yous Best, Lucas Harris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.productionsdoz.com/c216325p16441521.2.html 2. mailto:lucashar...@rogers.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Il 03/01/2011 18:15, t...@heartistrymusic.com ha scritto: I have heard many recordings of the guitar version with full orchestra, and I havealso performed the piece on guitar with full orchestra. Guitars and lutes were not designed for this. Even then I wanted a facsimile of the original, but was unable to locate one. Now that I am dabbling in the lute world I would like to re-visit this piece. Questions: 1. Given the time period, would it be most historically accurate to perform this on a baroque lute in baroque tuning? Or could one get by with an 8 course renaissance instrument? Vivaldi uses the word leuto Vivaldi to indicate an instrument able to realize the continuo. See, for example, his Concerto per la solennità di san Lorenzo RV 556. In my opinion (and in that of Rossella Perrone, who wrote a detailed preface to my edition of Vivaldi's works for lute and mandolin) that instrument was the archlute, i.e. the Italian baroque lute. But I guess that Vivaldi wouldn't mind if someone played it on the German baroque lute -- or even on the mandora, as Pietro Prosser suggested a few years ago. In her preface, Rossella Perrone writes: In writing almost certainly for the «leuto» that he knew, that is, the lute in use in Italy or the archlute, Vivaldi left the Bohemian patron or his lutist the task of adapting the part. In any event, it is significant that the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby, together with the concerto RV 540, can be played on both types of instrument and the keys of the works (C major in RV 82, G minor in RV 85, D major in RV 93 and D minor in RV 540) are comfortable for the archlute and the lute in D minor alike. Moreover, in the three compositions dedicated to the Bohemian count, considering the fact that the pieces were certainly destined for a chamber group, the lute part, unlike the concerto RV 540, in which the richer order of the score allows an explicit doubling of the roles of the instruments (as support for the basses in the ripieno and for the solista in the solos), is notated only in the treble clef without employing the bass clef. Nevertheless, since the lute part in score is always in the middle, between the violin and the bass, with the exception of the Larghetto of RV 82 (highlighting, with such an arrangement, the derivation of the violin part from the «leuto» part), one can put forward the hypothesis that the lutist of the period read from his own line and the bass line at the same time, perhaps playing both the melodic line as well as the basses for harmonic support. Ever since the publication of these compositions, as we were saying, the problem of the type of «leuto» employed by Vivaldi has come up. The confusion arose because of Vivaldi’s use of the treble clef. However, from the autograph RV 540, where the notes in the treble clef are written an octave higher and the basses on the true notes, we learn that the parts of the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby (all in G clef), were to be played by the archlute an octave lower and not on a small lute with a register that could go as high as D5. 2. Would Vivaldi have written standard notation that a lutenist would then have entabulated according to the instrument in their possession at the time? I guess so. There are some examples of this modus operandi in the lute literature of that time. There is an interesting article written by Pietro Prosser (in Italian, sorry): http://riviste.paviauniversitypress.it/index.php/phi/article/view/05-02-INT04/44 3. For correct volume and tonal balance, what would be the most appropriate (and historically correct) number of violins, etc.? String trio? Two per desk?... The Concerto RV 93 is scored for two violins, lute and basso. Best regards, Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Dear all, you could find mr Rizza's edition of Vivaldi's RV93 Concerto at Carisch Edition http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ best wishes, giulio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Ed,A is that not the version you sent me years ago in Tab for Soprano lute? A Bruno A Happy New year... On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Fabio Rizza [1]fabio_ri...@alice.it wrote: Il 03/01/2011 18:15, [2]...@heartistrymusic.com ha scritto: I have heard many recordings of the guitar version with full orchestra, and I havealso performed the piece on guitar with full orchestra. A Guitars and lutes were not designed for this. A Even then I wanted a facsimile of the original, but was unable to locate one. A Now that I am dabbling in the lute world I would like to re-visit this piece. Questions: A 1. Given the time period, would it be most historically accurate to perform this on a baroque lute in baroque tuning? A Or could one get by with an 8 course renaissance instrument? Vivaldi uses the word leuto Vivaldi to indicate an instrument able to realize the continuo. See, for example, his Concerto per la solennitA di san Lorenzo RV 556. In my opinion (and in that of Rossella Perrone, who wrote a detailed preface to my edition of Vivaldi's works for lute and mandolin) that instrument was the archlute, i.e. the Italian baroque lute. But I guess that Vivaldi wouldn't mind if someone played it on the German baroque lute -- or even on the mandora, as Pietro Prosser suggested a few years ago. In her preface, Rossella Perrone writes: In writing almost certainly for the AleutoA that he knew, that is, the lute in use in Italy or the archlute, Vivaldi left the Bohemian patron or his lutist the task of adapting the part. In any event, it is significant that the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby, together with the concerto RV 540, can be played on both types of instrument and the keys of the works (C major in RV 82, G minor in RV 85, D major in RV 93 and D minor in RV 540) are comfortable for the archlute and the lute in D minor alike. Moreover, in the three compositions dedicated to the Bohemian count, considering the fact that the pieces were certainly destined for a chamber group, the lute part, unlike the concerto RV 540, in which the richer order of the score allows an explicit doubling of the roles of the instruments (as support for the basses in the ripieno and for the solista in the solos), is notated only in the treble clef without employing the bass clef. Nevertheless, since the lute part in score is always in the middle, between the violin and the bass, with the exception of the Larghetto of RV 82 (highlighting, with such an arrangement, the derivation of the violin part from the AleutoA part), one can put forward the hypothesis that the lutist of the period read from his own line and the bass line at the same time, perhaps playing both the melodic line as well as the basses for harmonic support. Ever since the publication of these compositions, as we were saying, the problem of the type of AleutoA employed by Vivaldi has come up. The confusion arose because of Vivaldi's use of the treble clef. However, from the autograph RV 540, where the notes in the treble clef are written an octave higher and the basses on the true notes, we learn that the parts of the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby (all in G clef), were to be played by the archlute an octave lower and not on a small lute with a register that could go as high as D5. A 2. Would Vivaldi have written standard notation that a lutenist would then have entabulated according to the instrument in their possession at the time? I guess so. There are some examples of this modus operandi in the lute literature of that time. There is an interesting article written by Pietro Prosser (in Italian, sorry): [3]http://riviste.paviauniversitypress.it/index.php/phi/article/view /05-02-INT04/44 A 3. For correct volume and tonal balance, what would be the most appropriate (and historically correct) number of violins, etc.? String trio? A Two per desk?... The Concerto RV 93 is scored for two violins, lute and basso. Best regards, Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:fabio_ri...@alice.it 2. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 3. http://riviste.paviauniversitypress.it/index.php/phi/article/view/05-02-INT04/44 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
On Jan 3, 2011, at 9:15 AM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: 2. Would Vivaldi have written standard notation that a lutenist would then have entabulated according to the instrument in their possession at the time? A lutenist, particularly a lutenist capable of playing a Vivaldi concerto, would have known how to read staff notation, and at least one source of lute music, the della Casa book, is written in a sort of lute grand staff. 3. For correct volume and tonal balance, what would be the most appropriate (and historically correct) number of violins, etc.? String trio? Two per desk?... This depends, of course, on how many trombones you're using. But there was an established tradition of one-to-a-part concerto playing in the 18th century. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Because of the dedicatee in Bohemia, and the popularity of mandora amongst noble amateurs in that region of the world, Eric Liefeld (an occasional to this list) also speculated that they may have been performed on a mandora in D (see Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. LSA Quarterly 28(1):4-8.). I also like that there was a 5- to 7-course Italianate equivalent to mandora in the 18th c. that shared a great many construction features with mandolino, only being much bigger. As has been discussed here, naming such a thing leuto is not a difficult stretch given there was still an arcileuto active in Italian places at the time. Because of the solo parts' notation in violinist's short hand (single line on the treble clef), some have speculated that Vivaldi's leuto is a 5- or 6-course mandolino. In spite of playing mandolino, I don't think that's a very satisfying sound for the works to designate leuto (especially considering Vivaldi also designated other works mandolino). Personally, I really suspect Vivaldi didn't really care how the pieces were realized, especially since he wrote in simple melodic lines, leaving performer to flesh them out with whatever instrument s/he had on hand. A quick survey of a few efforts of which I'm aware: Lindberg with the Drottingholm Baroque Ensemble, Galfetti with Il Giardino Armonico, and Paul O'Dette in recent performances I've seen all use archlute. Julian Bream and his consort recorded it with his incarnation of renaissance lute and I've seen Ronn MacFarlane give an excellent performance of RV 93 on his. Oddly, when Paul O'Dette recorded these years ago, he opted to play the leuto works punteado on mandolino. Frankly, in spite of the excellent performance, the solo line sounds odd in to me in that octave. Enjoy, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Fabio Rizza Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 1:30 PM Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Il 03/01/2011 18:15, t...@heartistrymusic.com ha scritto: I have heard many recordings of the guitar version with full orchestra, and I havealso performed the piece on guitar with full orchestra. Guitars and lutes were not designed for this. Even then I wanted a facsimile of the original, but was unable to locate one. Now that I am dabbling in the lute world I would like to re-visit this piece. Questions: 1. Given the time period, would it be most historically accurate to perform this on a baroque lute in baroque tuning? Or could one get by with an 8 course renaissance instrument? Vivaldi uses the word leuto Vivaldi to indicate an instrument able to realize the continuo. See, for example, his Concerto per la solennità di san Lorenzo RV 556. In my opinion (and in that of Rossella Perrone, who wrote a detailed preface to my edition of Vivaldi's works for lute and mandolin) that instrument was the archlute, i.e. the Italian baroque lute. But I guess that Vivaldi wouldn't mind if someone played it on the German baroque lute -- or even on the mandora, as Pietro Prosser suggested a few years ago. In her preface, Rossella Perrone writes: In writing almost certainly for the «leuto» that he knew, that is, the lute in use in Italy or the archlute, Vivaldi left the Bohemian patron or his lutist the task of adapting the part. In any event, it is significant that the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby, together with the concerto RV 540, can be played on both types of instrument and the keys of the works (C major in RV 82, G minor in RV 85, D major in RV 93 and D minor in RV 540) are comfortable for the archlute and the lute in D minor alike. Moreover, in the three compositions dedicated to the Bohemian count, considering the fact that the pieces were certainly destined for a chamber group, the lute part, unlike the concerto RV 540, in which the richer order of the score allows an explicit doubling of the roles of the instruments (as support for the basses in the ripieno and for the solista in the solos), is notated only in the treble clef without employing the bass clef. Nevertheless, since the lute part in score is always in the middle, between the violin and the bass, with the exception of the Larghetto of RV 82 (highlighting, with such an arrangement, the derivation of the violin part from the «leuto» part), one can put forward the hypothesis that the lutist of the period read from his own line and the bass line at the same time, perhaps playing both the melodic line as well as the basses for harmonic support. Ever since the publication of these compositions, as we were saying, the problem of the type of «leuto» employed by Vivaldi has come up. The confusion arose because of Vivaldis use of the treble clef. However, from the autograph RV 540, where the notes in the treble clef are written an octave higher and the basses on the true notes, we learn
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
If you cannot hire the violonists and basso you can play my solo version: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Vivaldi/ ;-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
On Jan 3, 2011, at 11:17 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Oddly, when Paul O'Dette recorded these years ago, he opted to play the leuto works punteado on mandolino. Frankly, in spite of the excellent performance, the solo line sounds odd in to me in that octave. Not so odd at the time, when it was the latest musicological truth that the solo part should sound at notated pitch, and the performances an octave lower were incorrect. That particular orthodoxy came and went quickly, leaving Paul's recording as a souvenir. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
-Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 2:41 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? On Jan 3, 2011, at 11:17 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Oddly, when Paul O'Dette recorded these years ago, he opted to play the leuto works punteado on mandolino. Frankly, in spite of the excellent performance, the solo line sounds odd in to me in that octave. Not so odd at the time, when it was the latest musicological truth that the solo part should sound at notated pitch, and the performances an octave lower were incorrect. That particular orthodoxy came and went quickly, leaving Paul's recording as a souvenir. [Eugene C. Braig IV] ...And it is a fun an nicely executed effort, even if I personally prefer to hear the leuto parts a bit lower in pitch. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco 2011/1/3 [1]giulio.chiande...@libero.it [2]giulio.chiande...@libero.it Dear all, you could find mr Rizza's edition of Vivaldi's RV93 Concerto at Carisch Edition [3]http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ best wishes, giulio To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:giulio.chiande...@libero.it 2. mailto:giulio.chiande...@libero.it 3. http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Do you have a list of sources besides Filippo dalla Casa? r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of franco pavan Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 3:17 PM To: giulio.chiande...@libero.it Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco 2011/1/3 [1]giulio.chiande...@libero.it [2]giulio.chiande...@libero.it Dear all, you could find mr Rizza's edition of Vivaldi's RV93 Concerto at Carisch Edition [3]http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ best wishes, giulio To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:giulio.chiande...@libero.it 2. mailto:giulio.chiande...@libero.it 3. http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Il 03/01/2011 20:17, Eugene C. Braig IV ha scritto: Because of the solo parts' notation in violinist's short hand (single line on the treble clef), some have speculated that Vivaldi's leuto is a 5- or 6-course mandolino. In spite of playing mandolino, I don't think that's a very satisfying sound for the works to designate leuto (especially considering Vivaldi also designated other works mandolino). Since in his Concerto RV 540 Vivaldi uses both treble and bass clefs for the lute part (treble clef for the solos and bass clef for the tutti), it is quite unlikely that he had in mind a mandolin for his leuto works. Since in his trios RV 82 and 85 the lute follows almost exactly the violin part, the use of the treble clef for the lute has (among the others) a very simple explanation: it was just a way to save time writing the part once for all... The are other examples of works in which the violin doubles one octave higher the part of a plucked instrument, like, for example, in Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici op. 5 (for guitar, violin and viola da gamba) or in Schiffelholz's Sei Trio (for two gallichons, two violins and cello). Also, I've seen the manuscripts of tenths of Vivaldi's works: in many of his concertos the violin parts are sometimes written in bass clef -- the effect resulting even two or three octaves higher than notated, just in order to keep the music inside the staff, avoiding the extra lines and their collision with the upper staves... A quick survey of a few efforts of which I'm aware: Lindberg with the Drottingholm Baroque Ensemble, Galfetti with Il Giardino Armonico, and Paul O'Dette in recent performances I've seen all use archlute. Massimo Lonardi has recorded this works on an archlute in A. Best regards, Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
The keyboard part of BWV 1025 is an octave higher than Weiss's tablature (Dresden MS). In the bass clef the notes are usually at pitch, but occasionally an octave higher. Makes one wonder . . . That lute music in pitch notation has been given so little attention is unfortunate. Alas this is a project that was being undertaken by the late Jim Tyler. Thanks Franco. - Original Message - From: franco pavan f.pava...@gmail.com To: giulio.chiande...@libero.it Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 3:16 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco 2011/1/3 [1]giulio.chiande...@libero.it [2]giulio.chiande...@libero.it Dear all, you could find mr Rizza's edition of Vivaldi's RV93 Concerto at Carisch Edition [3]http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ best wishes, giulio To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:giulio.chiande...@libero.it 2. mailto:giulio.chiande...@libero.it 3. http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:16 PM, franco pavan wrote: Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco I think by pieces for Italian archlute Franco means ensemble music. There is solo archlute music in tablature, such as Zamboni's book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Very nice. I like it. Simple enough to play yet has the essence of the original. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of wikla Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 11:33 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? If you cannot hire the violonists and basso you can play my solo version: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Vivaldi/ ;-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Nol, it was probably my tablature. ed At 12:58 PM 1/3/2011, Bruno Fournier wrote: Ed,A is that not the version you sent me years ago in Tab for Soprano lute? A Bruno A Happy New year... On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Fabio Rizza [1]fabio_ri...@alice.it wrote: Il 03/01/2011 18:15, [2]...@heartistrymusic.com ha scritto: I have heard many recordings of the guitar version with full orchestra, and I havealso performed the piece on guitar with full orchestra. A Guitars and lutes were not designed for this. A Even then I wanted a facsimile of the original, but was unable to locate one. A Now that I am dabbling in the lute world I would like to re-visit this piece. Questions: A 1. Given the time period, would it be most historically accurate to perform this on a baroque lute in baroque tuning? A Or could one get by with an 8 course renaissance instrument? Vivaldi uses the word leuto Vivaldi to indicate an instrument able to realize the continuo. See, for example, his Concerto per la solennitA di san Lorenzo RV 556. In my opinion (and in that of Rossella Perrone, who wrote a detailed preface to my edition of Vivaldi's works for lute and mandolin) that instrument was the archlute, i.e. the Italian baroque lute. But I guess that Vivaldi wouldn't mind if someone played it on the German baroque lute -- or even on the mandora, as Pietro Prosser suggested a few years ago. In her preface, Rossella Perrone writes: In writing almost certainly for the AleutoA that he knew, that is, the lute in use in Italy or the archlute, Vivaldi left the Bohemian patron or his lutist the task of adapting the part. In any event, it is significant that the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby, together with the concerto RV 540, can be played on both types of instrument and the keys of the works (C major in RV 82, G minor in RV 85, D major in RV 93 and D minor in RV 540) are comfortable for the archlute and the lute in D minor alike. Moreover, in the three compositions dedicated to the Bohemian count, considering the fact that the pieces were certainly destined for a chamber group, the lute part, unlike the concerto RV 540, in which the richer order of the score allows an explicit doubling of the roles of the instruments (as support for the basses in the ripieno and for the solista in the solos), is notated only in the treble clef without employing the bass clef. Nevertheless, since the lute part in score is always in the middle, between the violin and the bass, with the exception of the Larghetto of RV 82 (highlighting, with such an arrangement, the derivation of the violin part from the AleutoA part), one can put forward the hypothesis that the lutist of the period read from his own line and the bass line at the same time, perhaps playing both the melodic line as well as the basses for harmonic support. Ever since the publication of these compositions, as we were saying, the problem of the type of AleutoA employed by Vivaldi has come up. The confusion arose because of Vivaldi's use of the treble clef. However, from the autograph RV 540, where the notes in the treble clef are written an octave higher and the basses on the true notes, we learn that the parts of the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby (all in G clef), were to be played by the archlute an octave lower and not on a small lute with a register that could go as high as D5. A 2. Would Vivaldi have written standard notation that a lutenist would then have entabulated according to the instrument in their possession at the time? I guess so. There are some examples of this modus operandi in the lute literature of that time. There is an interesting article written by Pietro Prosser (in Italian, sorry): [3]http://riviste.paviauniversitypress.it/index.php/phi/article/view /05-02-INT04/44 A 3. For correct volume and tonal balance, what would be the most appropriate (and historically correct) number of violins, etc.? String trio? A Two per desk?... The Concerto RV 93 is scored for two violins, lute and basso. Best regards, Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:fabio_ri...@alice.it 2. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 3. http://riviste.paviauniversitypress.it/index.php/phi/article/view/05-02-INT04/44 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
