Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
At 9:38 AM -0600 11/27/04, Edward Martin wrote: the sources never mention roped gut. I can imagine that roping gut is a modern invention, rather than a historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. I haven't seen anyone mention any pictures that depict them accurately here either. Strings are still the biggest mystery to me about the lute. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Francesco, I agree completely that the sources suggest even feel across the strings, and 13N or whatever is implausibly low. I don't know how to resolve the apparently impossible combination of clear, stiff, non-roped, non-loaded strings thin enough to go through bridge holes, and reasonable working tension. One suggestion is obviously that the bridges with small holes are not original! The biggest hole in the 1592 Venere lute is about 2mm, I think. Also you're absolutely right that our speculations are limited by the thinnest string that they could have made (presumably two guts laid end to end) which was probably around .40mm. This has implications for the pitch at which renaissance lutes might have been played - taking the 1592 Venere as an example, we have a double top string, with a tension on each string of about 40N if it's a G lute at a'=440. That seems rather high, so was the pitch lower? When I said the roped strings sounded dull, I was comparing them with a solid gut string of the same mass per unit length, not a wound string. There seems to be something in the roped string which makes it dull - I suggest some sort of internal damping or friction. We have a little iconographic evidence for coloured strings (mentioned by Dowland, who advised us to use the lightest colours) but no direct evidence for loaded strings. And the really difficult thing is that Dowland was talking about the lute with the biggest open-string range (9c lute in the old tuning) and therefore the biggest problem with getting basses to work. Yet they commonly tuned the bottom course down a tone! We have no evidence (apart from the dubious Mest example) that wound strings were ever used on lutes. Mimmo Peruffo's iconographic studies suggest that wound strings were adopted on bowed instruments but not on lutes. And why else does a swan-neck 13c lute have long basses? With modern wound strings they sound like a grand piano. Remember also that both Thomas Mace and the author of the Burwell tutor, writing some time after the invention of wound strings, describe strings in some detail but never mention wound strings. So we are left with some very difficult problems. I'm glad that more people are now taking the debate seriously - who knows, we might end up with some decent (and historically plausible) lute strings... Best wishes, Martin P.S. But I'd settle for just decent. - Original Message - From: Francesco Tribioli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Edward Martin' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Martin Shepherd' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute Net' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:14 PM Subject: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Dear Martin and Ed, historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. Do you really think that one could play with basses with a 1N or more less tended than the other strings? It contrasts with all historical tutorials we have. They all say that the tactile sensation must be the same on all the courses and I wholeheartedly agree with them. If there was a problem with the basses' tension surely they would have talked about this but actually they said to keep the tension costant more or less. I think that for 6c a regular gut string particularly twisted as could be Gamut Pystoys or Aquila Venice is OK. They are not roped but are like 3-4 thin regular twisted strings twisted again together, when the gut is still wet, and then polished to the right gauge. This kind of strings works very well for the V and VI courses of my Renaissance lute but of course one should not expect a very brilliant tone, like a wound string of course, and there is no reason to think that a so much brighter bass is actually better and that it was actually historical. I never had problem in stopping them together with the plain gut octaves as someone said to have, it's just a matter of developing a habit. For deeper strings the only solution is to found a working technology to load a gut string. Perhaps we haven't found the right one and I agree that the Aquila loaded strings were almost unusable due to the problems of intonation but I think in the past they did in some way. For Baroque lute there are some remnants of original strings (ask Mimmo Peruffo for this) that show they used demi-filee strings. For the transitional period when wound string were still not used who knows. There is need for more experiments, but I would surely draw out any hypothesis of different tensions amongst courses, just for musical reason. Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Ed and all: Michael Praetorius, in his Syntagma Musicum of 1618/19, includes a picture (Plate XX) of a bass viola with what look like roped fifth and sixth strings. His theorbos do not appear to have roped bass strings. Yours, Jim Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] la.or.jpcc: Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes 11/28/2004 08:38 AM At 9:38 AM -0600 11/27/04, Edward Martin wrote: the sources never mention roped gut. I can imagine that roping gut is a modern invention, rather than a historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. I haven't seen anyone mention any pictures that depict them accurately here either. Strings are still the biggest mystery to me about the lute. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Just an idea that I wouldn't know how to put into practice - they couldn't have roped but left a finer tail to go through the hole, could they? I'm thinking of a make of guitar and bass strings where only the core lies on the saddle and of course piano strings. You may argue that there is a slight difference in the materials and method of manufacture involved... Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-) Tony - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:58 PM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Dear Francesco, I agree completely that the sources suggest even feel across the strings, and 13N or whatever is implausibly low. I don't know how to resolve the apparently impossible combination of clear, stiff, non-roped, non-loaded strings thin enough to go through bridge holes, and reasonable working tension. One suggestion is obviously that the bridges with small holes are not original! The biggest hole in the 1592 Venere lute is about 2mm, I think. Also you're absolutely right that our speculations are limited by the thinnest string that they could have made (presumably two guts laid end to end) which was probably around .40mm. This has implications for the pitch at which renaissance lutes might have been played - taking the 1592 Venere as an example, we have a double top string, with a tension on each string of about 40N if it's a G lute at a'=440. That seems rather high, so was the pitch lower? When I said the roped strings sounded dull, I was comparing them with a solid gut string of the same mass per unit length, not a wound string. There seems to be something in the roped string which makes it dull - I suggest some sort of internal damping or friction. We have a little iconographic evidence for coloured strings (mentioned by Dowland, who advised us to use the lightest colours) but no direct evidence for loaded strings. And the really difficult thing is that Dowland was talking about the lute with the biggest open-string range (9c lute in the old tuning) and therefore the biggest problem with getting basses to work. Yet they commonly tuned the bottom course down a tone! We have no evidence (apart from the dubious Mest example) that wound strings were ever used on lutes. Mimmo Peruffo's iconographic studies suggest that wound strings were adopted on bowed instruments but not on lutes. And why else does a swan-neck 13c lute have long basses? With modern wound strings they sound like a grand piano. Remember also that both Thomas Mace and the author of the Burwell tutor, writing some time after the invention of wound strings, describe strings in some detail but never mention wound strings. So we are left with some very difficult problems. I'm glad that more people are now taking the debate seriously - who knows, we might end up with some decent (and historically plausible) lute strings... Best wishes, Martin P.S. But I'd settle for just decent. - Original Message - From: Francesco Tribioli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Edward Martin' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Martin Shepherd' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute Net' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:14 PM Subject: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Dear Martin and Ed, historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. Do you really think that one could play with basses with a 1N or more less tended than the other strings? It contrasts with all historical tutorials we have. They all say that the tactile sensation must be the same on all the courses and I wholeheartedly agree with them. If there was a problem with the basses' tension surely they would have talked about this but actually they said to keep the tension costant more or less. I think that for 6c a regular gut string particularly twisted as could be Gamut Pystoys or Aquila Venice is OK. They are not roped but are like 3-4 thin regular twisted strings twisted again together, when the gut is still wet, and then polished to the right gauge. This kind of strings works very well for the V and VI courses of my Renaissance lute but of course one should not expect a very brilliant tone, like a wound string of course, and there is no reason to think that a so much brighter bass is actually better and that it was actually historical. I never had problem in stopping them together with the plain gut octaves as someone said to have, it's just a matter of developing a habit. For deeper strings the only solution is to found a working technology to load a gut string. Perhaps we haven't found the right one and I agree that the Aquila loaded strings were almost unusable due to the problems of intonation but I think in the past they did in some way
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-) Shame on you! RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
When someone finds out out how to string the things I might think about it. T(op) C(at) - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-) Shame on you! RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
So we are left with some very difficult problems. I'm glad that more people are now taking the debate seriously - who knows, we might end up with some decent (and historically plausible) lute strings... Best wishes, Martin P.S. But I'd settle for just decent. Actually, I find the Pistoy basses by Gamut more than decent on my 10-course (62 cm, a' = 415, strings ranging from 0.40 for 1st to 2.20 for 10th); they are beautiful and very satisfying. More so than the Gimped ones I tried first. But I have some trouble on my single strung theorbo. I am stubborn enough to want 7 and 8 on the fingerboard (76 cm, tuned in a at a' = 415/440). When playing those basses alone they are rather dull, but played in chords with their higher octaves they are wonderfull again. And the transition to the extended basses is not in balance. For me this is practical evidence that a double strung theorbo would be better, or that indeed I shouldn't want string 7 and 8 on the fingerboard. |-( But I must say that they are still slowly improving (over a period of about a year now), something also very noticable on the extended basses. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Tony Chalkley wrote: Just an idea that I wouldn't know how to put into practice - they couldn't have roped but left a finer tail to go through the hole, could they? I'm thinking of a make of guitar and bass strings where only the core lies on the saddle and of course piano strings. You may argue that there is a slight difference in the materials and method of manufacture involved... Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-) An article in the Lute Society of America Quarterly some years ago suggested that players would roll their own: take a double-length single-strand string, run it through the bridge hole and back to the pegbox, and then twist the two strands into a rope. This would account for holes too small to accommodate a roped string. Of course, it would take half an hour to replace a string if it broke during a gig. In our own time, roped gut strings were/are used much more on renaissance lutes than on baroque lutes. I have nothing to add to the discussion about whether they were used historically. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Stephan Olbertz wrote: this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with modern materials. We can twist nylon and PVF and make ropes out of them. We have been showing this stringing on a vihuela at the London Early Music Exhibition for some years now... This is exactly what I was wondering about the other day when I listened again to a cassette lecture (available from the LSA) about gut stringing by Damien Dlugolecki. Has anyone tried twisting NylGut into Catlines or rope strings? I am definitely not satisfied with wound basses. My lute came with loaded gut basses when I got it, which sounded great but were useless, as far as I was concerned, because they were out of tune with the octaves when fretted. One other problem with playing technique is the difference in size between strings within a course. If the difference is too great, it causes problems with the angle one can use with the finger when fretting and bar chords. I would like to know if roped strings are thinner than loaded gut strings with an equivalent tension. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Ed, A very interesting thread, this. I'm sticking my head a bit above the parapet this time just on a point of information. A roped gut string will always be a bigger diameter than a loaded string because it is less dense. In fact it will also be bigger and more difficult to finger than a smooth-surfaced gut string of the same density and mass. Recently I unearthed some roped gut strings which I made and used some years ago. They were flexible and true (and not very knobbly), but compared to a plain gut string they have a duller, softer sound. I think it must be because the strands of the rope are free to slide against each other to some extent, or there are small gaps so they are not fully in contact. But it convinced me that the final solution to the problem of gut bass strings is not going to involve roping. Incidentally a pretty strong argument against roping is that none of the people who could have mentioned it did (Capirola, Dowland, Mace, Burwell) - in fact thay all say the signs of goodness are the same for bass strings as they are for treble strings: clear against the light, smooth, stiff to the finger. (for sources see my sit www.luteshop.co.uk under Lute strings ancient and modern. It seems we have little alternative but to experiment with lower tensions. Best wishes, Martin - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephan Olbertz [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Stephan Olbertz wrote: this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with modern materials. We can twist nylon and PVF and make ropes out of them. We have been showing this stringing on a vihuela at the London Early Music Exhibition for some years now... This is exactly what I was wondering about the other day when I listened again to a cassette lecture (available from the LSA) about gut stringing by Damien Dlugolecki. Has anyone tried twisting NylGut into Catlines or rope strings? I am definitely not satisfied with wound basses. My lute came with loaded gut basses when I got it, which sounded great but were useless, as far as I was concerned, because they were out of tune with the octaves when fretted. One other problem with playing technique is the difference in size between strings within a course. If the difference is too great, it causes problems with the angle one can use with the finger when fretting and bar chords. I would like to know if roped strings are thinner than loaded gut strings with an equivalent tension. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Martin, I agree. You are most correct, in that the sources never mention roped gut. I can imagine that roping gut is a modern invention, rather than a historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logical. ed At 11:26 AM 11/27/2004 +, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear Ed, A very interesting thread, this. I'm sticking my head a bit above the parapet this time just on a point of information. A roped gut string will always be a bigger diameter than a loaded string because it is less dense. In fact it will also be bigger and more difficult to finger than a smooth-surfaced gut string of the same density and mass. Recently I unearthed some roped gut strings which I made and used some years ago. They were flexible and true (and not very knobbly), but compared to a plain gut string they have a duller, softer sound. I think it must be because the strands of the rope are free to slide against each other to some extent, or there are small gaps so they are not fully in contact. But it convinced me that the final solution to the problem of gut bass strings is not going to involve roping. Incidentally a pretty strong argument against roping is that none of the people who could have mentioned it did (Capirola, Dowland, Mace, Burwell) - in fact thay all say the signs of goodness are the same for bass strings as they are for treble strings: clear against the light, smooth, stiff to the finger. (for sources see my sit www.luteshop.co.uk under Lute strings ancient and modern. It seems we have little alternative but to experiment with lower tensions. Best wishes, Martin - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephan Olbertz [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Stephan Olbertz wrote: this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with modern materials. We can twist nylon and PVF and make ropes out of them. We have been showing this stringing on a vihuela at the London Early Music Exhibition for some years now... This is exactly what I was wondering about the other day when I listened again to a cassette lecture (available from the LSA) about gut stringing by Damien Dlugolecki. Has anyone tried twisting NylGut into Catlines or rope strings? I am definitely not satisfied with wound basses. My lute came with loaded gut basses when I got it, which sounded great but were useless, as far as I was concerned, because they were out of tune with the octaves when fretted. One other problem with playing technique is the difference in size between strings within a course. If the difference is too great, it causes problems with the angle one can use with the finger when fretting and bar chords. I would like to know if roped strings are thinner than loaded gut strings with an equivalent tension. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Damn it to hell Roman, this is getting annoying. Not quite. Hooks and levers are NOT the same thing. I'm afraid you don't know enough about hooked harps of the 18th century. I know quite well that hooks and levers aren't the same thing, and I think I said that we now call hooks blades. But they serve the same purpose, the change of the pitch of the string. I know one harpist who plays replica music of the Middle Ages and is able to use her fingers to stop the string (as was done before the invention of hooks) to get an accidental - afraid I don't have that skill. Must I make everything as detailed as a primer, or can you just accept that I might know what I'm talking about? And BTW, her replica is wire strung (and don't give me any of that new age harpers crap, her qualifications are better than yours). To the members of the list, I promised some time ago not to get into contretemps like this, and I apologize for the strong language. I'm sure that if RT and I met over a beer in NYC we'd get along fine, but I'm getting tired of the nit picking. Need I say when I speak of tensile strength that it is a materials characteristic and that the thickness of the material (cross section, or guage) affects its actual resistance to fracture given the longitudinal tension applied to it? (steel bars will take a greater pull than steel wire, but the tensile strength of the material is the same). And that density affects the vibrating resonance? Or can I assume that you aren't all idiots who need every detail (an assumption I make, particularly given the intelligent conversations here). I'm tempted to say more, but I shan't. Enough. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Must I make everything as detailed as a primer, or can you just accept that I might know what I'm talking about? Yes. Otherwise you get a messageful of inexactitudes and fallacies. It would have been for your own good. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
. I have no reason to be here on the list except to ask questions about my use of my lute and to offer my experience on stringed instruments. As long as there are those on the list that will help me, and that I can help, I'll remain. And I do hope that you will swallow your ego and ocassionaly confess a misreading, if not error. BTW, the hooks (an invention of the 1700's) are what we now call blades, I could send you a drawing. The levers are merely a better way to accomplish the purpose - although I use those blade/hooks on my psalteries. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 10:09 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Must I make everything as detailed as a primer, or can you just accept that I might know what I'm talking about? Yes. Otherwise you get a messageful of inexactitudes and fallacies. It would have been for your own good. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Vance, perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity of existing information. And herein lies my confusion. I have a good friend (and college classmate) who is retired from a career as an orchestral flautist and now has a non-profit Baroque orchestra in Connecticutt, using instruments or reproductions of that time. I'm sure he isn't sure exactly how it sounded then, but probably approximates from the best sources available. But is that really better music than the modern instrument playing the same pieces? I don't know (and will say that my basic love in music is simplicity of sound, so might go for the early stuff). It almost seems as if the search for the perfect reproduction of the sound of the Renaissance lute should be in the hands of Indiana Jones. Bill has mentioned differences in string quality, others have mentioned geographic variation. I'd love to hear an ancient Greek playing a cithera, just to hear his sense of music on that limited instrument (with inaccurate tuning, if we have trouble with drilled pegs imagine doing it with leather wraps). But I'm sure if we could bring him back to life he'd play my harp once and drop his cithera. There is no ancient secret to music, but there is old music that must be preserved (if only to show the youth of a hundred years from now that rap ain't music). There is no Rosetta Stone. the very notation tells us that each musician learned from another, then took off on his own. (Not from lute tabulation, I recommend Jesse Owens, Composers at Work - which goes to the earliest notations). I'll make a provocative statement (I don't think the members of this list are much into dressing up with floppy hats and knee breeches for Renaissance Festivals). The body and the soundboard are integral to the sound of the lute, but is the tuning mechanism? That which is beyond the nut is (or should be) dead sound. Why not use modern tuning mechanisms for finer tuning. Do you really think that the old lads, who did this for a living (and a small one at that, before the Renaissance the musician was considered a jongleur and of low status) wouln't have liked an easier way to tune? That doesn't mean I'm going to make a lute that way, but that's only as I'm an old traditionalist in all things. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
what's the oldest known recording of a lute? ...or any other cordophone instrument? anyone know? - bill = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Francesco (and all), just a few further thoughts, sorry for answering lately. Francesco wrote: Perhaps they decided to change to thumb out for other technical reasons. I guess it's simpler to play thumb out with many courses, due to the much wider distance the thumb must reach, and also because in the music for these larger instruments the thumb must use the lower strings a lot more than for Renaissance repertoire. At least with my hands it's in no way easier to play thumb-out on low bass courses. If I want to keep the little finger on the soundboard and away from the first course, the thumb virtually is _in_ when lying on e.g. the 11th course. Interestingly it only seems to work when the little finger rests on/under the bridge or behind it, so that you have a little space for upward movement without touching the strings. As you pointed out the thumb out move the point where it plucks the string a lot forward and this can make the sound sloppy on the thick gut basses. The answer might have been to move the hand towards the bridge in order to regain a clear and full sound on the basses. And a harsh sounding upper register at the same time. I noticed that strings have several sweet spots of different colour which are related to the points where you get the harmonics. Usually we try to play at those very points, consciously or not. Just like the harmonics over the fingerboard towards the saddle those spots are ever closer together when moving the hand to the bridge and the colour changes rapidly (as the feel of stiffness under the finger). When playing in the extreme thumb-out position very close to the bridge we see on so many paintings with musicians in a playing posture (and I think one can judge them from mere posing), the middle and especially the ring finger _will_ sound much different than the index. There is no way of having a much lower tension on the first course or courses than on the following to compensate this if we want an even stiffness that is not just felt. So either our concept of baroque stringing is wrong and the tension increased towards the basses, or our concept of a pleasant and well-balanced sound through all registers does not match baroque aesthetics. Please correct me if I'm wrong... BTW, I seem to remember that Besard wrote constantly moving the arm would be unmanly and therefore thumb-out would be the superior technique. One point to the posing theorists :-) Regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Stephan and all, At least with my hands it's in no way easier to play thumb-out on low bass courses. If I want to keep the little finger on the soundboard and away from the first course, the thumb virtually is _in_ when lying on e.g. the 11th course. Interestingly it only seems to work when the little finger rests on/under the bridge or behind it, so that you have a little space for upward movement without touching the strings. It's true that moving up the thumb goes towards the bridge and so could pass behind the position of the index finger tip, because it moves on an arc. I think that thumbs out should be considered with the hand in a less extreme position, for example with the thumb resting on VI or VII course. Then, if you put the hand in a thumb under position when the thumb rests on, say, the VI course, when you move the thumb up it goes a lot back towards the bridge while if you have a thumb out it will pluck the strings almost at the same distance from it. In terms of the angle string-thumb, with thumb under you go from an angle close to zero on the VI course to an angle of close to 80 degree for the lower courses and the extension is obtained only (or mostly) by rotating the thumb as the little finger is quite locked by its flat position. Starting thumb out the angle range might be -25 to 15 degree and the extra extension needed is obtained extending the little finger. In this second case the thumb rotates in a different and smaller arc and the hit point changes a lot less giving a more balanced sound on all diapasons. In some portraits the little finger rests on the bridge or behind and the thumb is always out, but I guess it might be a matter of hand conformation and size and it seems to me that the majority used the hand in a less extreme position, even if always quite close to the bridge and thumb out, more or less. The posture of Gaultier portrait seems to me one of the most natural and relaxed. And a harsh sounding upper register at the same time. I don't agree about the harsh. Right, the sound is brighter of course, but it can be pleasant if the fingers pluck, to say so, tapping instead of hooking. Even thumb out there are a lot of possible angles that can be chosen for the attack of fingers. Of course it's a different technique that must be practiced to work well. I'm not completely satisfied by the sound I obtain thumbs out but I noticed that it improved a lot from the first harsh sounds so I think there is margin for further improvement. I noticed that strings have several sweet spots of different colour which are related to the points where you get the harmonics. Usually we try to play at those very points, consciously or not. Just like the harmonics over the fingerboard towards the saddle those spots are ever closer together when moving the hand to the bridge and the colour changes rapidly (as the feel of stiffness under the finger). When playing in the extreme thumb-out position very close to the bridge we see on so many paintings with musicians in a playing posture (and I think one can judge them from mere posing), the middle and especially the ring finger _will_ I'm just trying with my hand on the desktop: the index and middle would hit the string at a distance of 1 cm or so, quite close of what happens thumb in, as you have to leave room for both also in this hand position. The ring finger on the other hand really plucks quite behind compared to thumb in, but it is also used less frequently. Perhaps the advantages in the use of the thumb justified the additional work needed to obtain a good sound by the ring finger. sound much different than the index. There is no way of having a much lower tension on the first course or courses than on the following to compensate this if we want an even stiffness that is not just felt. So either our concept of baroque stringing is wrong and the tension increased towards the basses, or our concept of a pleasant and well-balanced In case the opposite, as the chanterelle tension cannot be lowered without changing the overall instrument pitch and heavier basses means thicker and duller strings. A little lighter bourdons in my opinion could work well. I used in the past a loaded gut bass on my Renaissance lute 8th course a little bit lighter of the other string and it was better, but one cannot exaggerate here otherwise it would buzz or loose sound. sound through all registers does not match baroque aesthetics. I think it could be so. About the balance I think it can be obtained with some work. All of us had to practice a lot to have a good and uniform sound in all registers with our thumb-in technique, why the same effort shouldn't be necessary for the thumb out too? Please correct me if I'm wrong... BTW, I seem to remember that Besard wrote constantly moving the arm would be unmanly and therefore thumb-out would be the superior technique. One point to the posing theorists :-)
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely provide you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nut-shell a Baroque harp is a instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or a single row instrument with hooks. That is like saying that a Samisen is a Baroque instrument because it was played in Japan during that time. You have the Welsh triple strung, a Spanish version and an Italian version (and I'll not go to my notes to get the exact names. Then you have the hooks (now called blades) and which are now levers. Are these all the same instrument, as you tend to say the Renaissance Lute is but one. Not quite. Hooks and levers are NOT the same thing. I'm afraid you don't know enough about hooked harps of the 18th century. Where did you get the info that 'Medieval' harps were wire-strung? RT Probably because they were. The harp of the Dark Ages and Medieval times was basically a Celtic instrument, remnants have been found in Celtic areas of eastern Europe and they were celebrated in the Ireland of the 6th century. That's pushing the envelope... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
I would think Michel Podolsky's, after the War, at the bad end of the spectrum, and Walter Gerwig at he good. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv what's the oldest known recording of a lute? ...or any other cordophone instrument? anyone know? - bill = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Jon: Aesthetics for the most part. I can't imagine a lute with a set of Grovers especially twenty-some-odd of them on one instrument. The issue of weight would be a real and significant problem. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:05 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Vance, perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity of existing information. And herein lies my confusion. I have a good friend (and college classmate) who is retired from a career as an orchestral flautist and now has a non-profit Baroque orchestra in Connecticutt, using instruments or reproductions of that time. I'm sure he isn't sure exactly how it sounded then, but probably approximates from the best sources available. But is that really better music than the modern instrument playing the same pieces? I don't know (and will say that my basic love in music is simplicity of sound, so might go for the early stuff). It almost seems as if the search for the perfect reproduction of the sound of the Renaissance lute should be in the hands of Indiana Jones. Bill has mentioned differences in string quality, others have mentioned geographic variation. I'd love to hear an ancient Greek playing a cithera, just to hear his sense of music on that limited instrument (with inaccurate tuning, if we have trouble with drilled pegs imagine doing it with leather wraps). But I'm sure if we could bring him back to life he'd play my harp once and drop his cithera. There is no ancient secret to music, but there is old music that must be preserved (if only to show the youth of a hundred years from now that rap ain't music). There is no Rosetta Stone. the very notation tells us that each musician learned from another, then took off on his own. (Not from lute tabulation, I recommend Jesse Owens, Composers at Work - which goes to the earliest notations). I'll make a provocative statement (I don't think the members of this list are much into dressing up with floppy hats and knee breeches for Renaissance Festivals). The body and the soundboard are integral to the sound of the lute, but is the tuning mechanism? That which is beyond the nut is (or should be) dead sound. Why not use modern tuning mechanisms for finer tuning. Do you really think that the old lads, who did this for a living (and a small one at that, before the Renaissance the musician was considered a jongleur and of low status) wouln't have liked an easier way to tune? That doesn't mean I'm going to make a lute that way, but that's only as I'm an old traditionalist in all things. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Vance, Aesthetics for the most part. I can't imagine a lute with a set of Grovers especially twenty-some-odd of them on one instrument. The issue of weight would be a real and significant problem. I concur, I am really more traditionalist than I sometimes sound. But I'm thinking of looking for a set of tuning mechanisms for the flat back, it is already heavy by its construction (light compared with a guitar, but heavy compared with a lute). Not sure if I can find anything that will fit without major modification, but as this instrument is a practical one for travel and practice it shouldn't hoit. But when I build a traditional Renaissance lute it will have pegs. One of the problems with the flat back (MusicMakers) is that the pegs are vertical through the single piece peg board rather than horizontal through a slotted peg board. That makes a single friction point with the pull against it rather than a peg supported at both ends (and with friction at both ends) with the pull in the middle. Early citoles were that way, as some other early instruments - but the slotted pegboard with dual support for the pin was a fine advancement. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Actually there are hints about the playing position even in very early tutors of the renaissance. They all mention a playing position between bridge and rose. I've seen many of today's players playing over the rose which would be completely wrong following that instructions but I have to admit that I have lutes which respond much better when using that position. Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 22.11.2004 22:20:11 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes In einer eMail vom 22.11.2004 13:13:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt= =20 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:=20 We do not have any recordings, but it seems that we try to find some way of=20 not playing=20 near the bridge, because it doesn't fit in with what we imagine the true=20 nature of the lute sound. The same is probably true of renaissance lute playing, are we aiming for=20 divine frenzy in our performances, as Marsillo Ficino describes the renais= sance=20 performance ethos.=20 best wishes Mark Wheeler -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Fwd: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Francesco. Thomas, et all, This is an interesting thread (pun intended) , as I think we are really discussing the hows and why's, in the metamorphosis of the lute. By that, I mean how the instrument changed through the times, why the transition tunings appeared, but were short lived, and the d minor tuning was finally established. I think that the d minor tuning configuration is a result of experimentation, and I believe many factors were involved, but the possibilities of string technology was a limiting factor. Francesco gives us many examples of mensurs, pitches, etc. He points out that the players builders seemed to usually string the instruments at their highest and lowest possible limits. For example, the treble at f would be at the highest possible pitch, before the treble would break. In terms of the low (C or A, depending on 11 vs 13 course), those respective pitches pushed the low register limits. Francesco's description of a bass rider adding length was out of necessity, as there were limitations on how thick a string could be before it was too ridiculously large in diameter to give a good sound. I think lutes sound the best when the high low pitch ranges are at their limits. ed X-Ironport-AV: i=3.87,106,1099285200; d=scan'208; a=453331569:sNHT14010244 X-RF-Exists: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-Mailing-List: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:34:58 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Francesco Tribioli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Dear Elias, Gaultier-Portrait shows the little finger even behind the bridge. 3 different positions, 3 different moments, 3 different painters, etc. How should a painter of our days do a piano player's hands showing typically Russian technique? Would someone be able 500 years later to tell? I think no painter would care about it, noone would have the knowledge to even observe details like that. Nor would the pianoplayer give any importance to it. Right, but in the mean the right hand of the portraied baroque lute players is closer to the bridge of that, say, of Francesco da Milano. Then there might be differences, someone closer to the bridge, someone with the pinky behind the bridge etc. depending on the personal taste and the hand of the player. There are the same differencies nowadays amongst different players. rather low tension, also for the sake of general sound. A Polish lutenist that has attended seminars with H. Smith confirmed that, he said that Smith is using low tension not only on baroque but also on renaissance lute and on vijuela. I can hear the difference even on CDs, however for renaissance lute I generally prefer the sound of somewhat higher tension. We should understand what low tension means. As physics of strings demonstrates, given a 70cm baroque lute and a 0.40 chantarelle you can never go below ~3.7N of tension unless you tune the lute a lot below its nominal pitch or chose a smaller lute, and both things are unhistorical. This chantarelle tension means a general tension of around 2.9-3N for the other courses or the chantarelle would be too much stiff compared to the other strings. This is the lowest possible tension, then it might be that someone uses a higher tension in Baroque lutes, I don't know, but if one uses gut basses this is not a good idea because those strings are already pretty thick (even if loaded or half wound) and rising the tension means to have thicker basses that actually would sound worse. There are quite limited choices in stringing a lute when using gut strings, because lutes were designed to exploit the possibilities of gut strings at their extreme limits. With synthetic or wound strings there is much more freedom but it's no more historical. The same holds for Renaissance lutes. The diapason of a Renaissance lute is the longest possible to have a chantarelle tuned at g pitch (or the lute nominal pitch) lasting 2-3 weeks and the thickness of the chantarelle is the smallest possible in order to have basses as thin as possible. At the time it was impossible to make strings thinner that 0.40mm that means a tension for the other courses of ~2.7N. My opinion is that the single chantarelle was due to the need to have a higher tension for it while keeping the same feeling under the fingers of the other course, double stringed but with lower tension. Lower tension for the lower strings means thinner basses and a lower possible low pitch. Renaissance lute remained with 6c until a new string technology, whatever it was, gave the possibility to have bass strings brilliant enough at lower pitches, only then a 7th course was added. Moving to 10c or 11c didn't change the lowest pitch that was determined by the string technology. Actually the lowest note of an 7c is D while on a 10c or a French Baroque 11c is C. To go one tone below (or to say better a minor third as the pitch was now
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
here's an item to pique the interest of those with uncompromising views on pinky placement, etc., etc. in a book i confess to have read once called meetings with remarkable men by george gurdjieff - which, as a book, when divorced from the god'swill that accompanied it, turned out to be an interesting enough read - he describes an instructional devise he saw at a dancing school for young girls. this devise consisted of several pieces of string which attached at one end to various parts of the human body (knees, elbows, hands, etc.) before rising to a series of metal loops which channeled the string a short distance to a corresponding series of loops, above and just in front of the student. the string ends then passed down through these loops to rest in mid-air at a pre-ordained height, right before the student's eyes. attached to the end of each piece of string was a tiny token which, when aligned with the token before and after, gave indication that the elbow, knee, hand, etc., of the dance student were all in their proper place. thus, a correct dance position was obtained. i'd like to think that some allowance was made for girls of varying height and shape but it's more likely that developing muscles and fragile bones were made to conform to the machine, rather than it to them. a devise of this sort could prove a real boon to those employing bondage and the like in their search for perfect pinky posture. pip-pip - bill = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
He would never do this, if he were intelligent. RT Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of their time doing besides making violins. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He would never do this, if he were intelligent. RT Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
They were MOSTLY building from scratch, and from time to time putting in a fake label, for self-evident reasons. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of their time doing besides making violins. Sterling He would never do this, if he were intelligent. RT Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
You should read the latest journal of the LSA which discusses this topic in depth. Surely we can agree that many baroque lutes didn't begin life with 13 courses. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They were MOSTLY building from scratch, and from time to time putting in a fake label, for self-evident reasons. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of their time doing besides making violins. Sterling He would never do this, if he were intelligent. RT Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
You should read the latest journal of the LSA which discusses this topic in depth. Surely we can agree that many baroque lutes didn't begin life with 13 courses. Sterling 1. That's why so many of them fell apart. 2. Lundberg's opinions are considered dated by some. 3. Too many instruments have fake labels. RT They were MOSTLY building from scratch, and from time to time putting in a fake label, for self-evident reasons. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of their time doing besides making violins. Sterling He would never do this, if he were intelligent. RT Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to luthier-friend this type of sorry expediency is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute I would immedeatly convert it to 13. Sterling Price --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. He had to: 1. Make a new neck peg box 2. Make a new bridge 3. Open the instrument brace it differently, so it could accommodate a wider bridge. __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
RT, If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely provide you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nit-shell a Baroque harp is a instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or single a row instrument with hooks. That is like saying that a Samisen is a Baroque instrument because it was played in Japan during that time. You have the Welsh triple strung, a Spanish version and an Italian version (and I'll not go to my notes to get the exact names. Then you have the hooks (now called blades) and which are now levers. Are these all the same instrument, as you tend to say the Renaissance Lute is but one. Where did you get the info that 'Medieval' harps were wire-strung? RT Probably because they were. The harp of the Dark Ages and Medieval times was basically a Celtic instrument, remnants have been found in Celtic areas of eastern Europe and they were celebrated in the Ireland of the 6th century. This is not to say that they weren't elsewhere, after all most of our western instruments are the descendents of Greek and Middle Eastern instruments (for the simple reason that almost everything else in Europe originated there). I'm not going to take the time at this moment to detail the sources (and I must admit that I've always wondered how wire strings could be on early instruments - how in the hell did they make wire?). But the sources are there. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Stephan, I have over fifty years of playing guitar badly (never took up classical). But I'm pretty good as a traditional folk guitarist - a finger picker, not a strummer. Close to the bridge tightens the sound, makes it a bit brighter, as long as the tension is adequate. But it will do little with a soft tension. The effect comes from the initial pluck setting the overtone vibrations first, then the string takes over. Ideally one would get the mellowest tone by plucking the middle of the string (as is normal on the harp). Impractical though on guitar and lute. But without having read Segerman's article I'll not comment further (it is printing now for perusal in the morning, all 14 pages). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear all, it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper register. If the aim had been to brighten the bass there would have been no reason to abandon thumb-inside, where you can hit the string with the tip of the thumb, if you like and not with its side. So either they wanted darker sounding basses, which would be strange in the age of figured bass, or they were quite satisfied with their bass strings. I suppose most players today play technically somewhere in- between to combine the best of both worlds: brighter upper and well-focused lower register. The question is, why didn't they do the same? Regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear Stephan, it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper register. If the aim had been to brighten the bass there would have been no reason to abandon thumb-inside, where you can hit the string with the tip of the thumb, if you like and not with Perhaps they decided to change to thumb out for other technical reasons. I guess it's simpler to play thumb out with many courses, due to the much wider distance the thumb must reach, and also because in the music for these larger instruments the thumb must use the lower strings a lot more than for Renaissance repertoire. As you pointed out the thumb out move the point where it plucks the string a lot forward and this can make the sound sloppy on the thick gut basses. The answer might have been to move the hand towards the bridge in order to regain a clear and full sound on the basses. Just my opinion of course... its side. So either they wanted darker sounding basses, which would be strange in the age of figured bass, or they were quite satisfied with their bass strings. Or used different instruments for figured bass, theorbos or german theorbos, that actually solve the problem adding length to the basses... Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
That is the question, Stephan.We just do not know how they valued the sound. ed At 01:10 PM 11/22/2004 +0100, Stephan Olbertz wrote: Dear all, it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper register. If the aim had been to brighten the bass there would have been no reason to abandon thumb-inside, where you can hit the string with the tip of the thumb, if you like and not with its side. So either they wanted darker sounding basses, which would be strange in the age of figured bass, or they were quite satisfied with their bass strings. I suppose most players today play technically somewhere in- between to combine the best of both worlds: brighter upper and well-focused lower register. The question is, why didn't they do the same? Regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
breaking. Here is where the anomaly occurs, a lighter guage might seem to be the solution, but the lighter the guage the less the tensile strength, so the breaking pitch remains approximately the same. (Yes purists, I know the tensile strength is a function of the material, not the guage - but a thicker string has more material. Not necessarily. You forgot about density. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Steve has given you some numbers on harp tensions, and I can't disagree. I can only add my own thoughts (and calculations). I'm totally unfamiliar with orchestral pedal harps - and am not sure how one defines a Baroque harp. If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely provide you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nit-shell a Baroque harp is a instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or single a row instrument with hooks. The earlier harps, Medieval and Celtic, were normally wire strung Where did you get the info that 'Medieval' harps were wire-strung? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
wouldn't it be safe to assume that string quality varied from region to region and style of play - close to or far from the bridge, for example - would have depended on many variables and possible interpretations available to the performer at the time? constants vary. - bill --- Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is the question, Stephan.We just do not know how they valued the sound. ed At 01:10 PM 11/22/2004 +0100, Stephan Olbertz wrote: Dear all, it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper register. If the aim had been to brighten the bass there would have been no reason to abandon thumb-inside, where you can hit the string with the tip of the thumb, if you like and not with its side. So either they wanted darker sounding basses, which would be strange in the age of figured bass, or they were quite satisfied with their bass strings. I suppose most players today play technically somewhere in- between to combine the best of both worlds: brighter upper and well-focused lower register. The question is, why didn't they do the same? Regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
constants vary. - bill And pigs may fly, and the centre does not hold. David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are portrayed, more or less, all in the same position. 8^) Then what about the portraits of Mouton and Gaultier? They are not exactly unknown lutenists and if I was a famous master I would have liked to be portrayed more or less in a correct playing pose. Also there are many original tops that have a spot were the little finger rested and that spot is very close to the bridge or even behind the bridge. Of course it's possible that the playing technique varied from place to place but these are evidences we cannot completely ignore. Francesco -Original Message- From: Elias Fuchs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 4:35 PM To: David Cameron; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes I just want to say something about the often quoted old paintings. These paintings are to my opinion much too much relied upon with regard to lute technique, especially right hand (for instance drawing conclusions from a hand being far from the bridge or near, etc). I had read tons of justifications based on old paintings. Who can be sure, that a real lutenist was the model for the painting, or - beware! - a bad lutenist, or somebody with his own personal technique none has ever seen, so what? Was the painter primarily interested in a detailed lute technical description for us, or in his own esthetical end product? So hasn't the painter influenced the maybe even real lute player, telling him bad stuff like Hold your right hand a bit more in a way so I can also see your little finger, because that looks better for the painting, etc., you understand what I mean, the possibilities for a hand position that would not be representative, are endless! Elias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
bill kilpatrick wrote: wouldn't it be safe to assume that string quality varied from region to region and style of play - close to or far from the bridge, for example - would have depended on many variables and possible interpretations available to the performer at the time? It must be safe to assume it, because I assume it all the time and I've yet to be hit by lightning. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
In einer eMail vom 22.11.2004 13:13:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt= =20 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:=20 The question is, why didn't=20 they do the same? =20 The problem is that even if we knew exactly how they played,=20 maybe we would be unhappy with the result. It is very difficult for us to remain objective, without imposing our world=20 view on the subject. An article in the Early Music Today Oct/Nov 2004 has a very interesting=20 article about performing medieval music. John Potter talks about when de delivered a paper= =20 about=20 portmento at the Schola Cantorium Basel. He played the earliest audio=20 recordings of very famous singers and asked the experts (including Anthony Rooley) what=20 they=20 thought about these performances, they found them funny !!! John potter then= =20 asked if they taught historical performance of theis period at Schola=20 Cantorium Basel and they replied Of course we do. He then asked if they wo= uld teach=20 singers to singer like that and they all answered Of course not. Another expert says in the article that recordings preserve sounds that coul= d=20 not have been guessed at from contemporary treatises. We do not have any recordings, but it seems that we try to find some way of=20 not playing=20 near the bridge, because it doesn't fit in with what we imagine the true=20 nature of the lute sound. The same is probably true of renaissance lute playing, are we aiming for=20 divine frenzy in our performances, as Marsillo Ficino describes the renais= sance=20 performance ethos.=20 best wishes Mark Wheeler -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
You know, old tutors give recommendations - just for example Reusner speaking to place the pinky before the bridge not behind it. This tells us that there must have been a tradition of placing the pinky behind the bridge (I think to remember Kapsberger favouring this position) but that this specific player favours a different one. I personally think the correct position could depend on the instrument and maybe certain local traditions/fashions as someone else already pointed out. Also the question of thumb inside - outside could be regarded that way. The fact that Dowland changed later in his life to thumb outside (although just mentioned in Stobaeus that he did so) and the pictures of Mouton could tell us that many well known lutenists preferred that way of playing. But also it tells us that there must have been different approaches. Best wishes Thomas Francesco Tribioli [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 22.11.2004 16:59:02 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are portrayed, more or less, all in the same position. 8^) Then what about the portraits of Mouton and Gaultier? They are not exactly unknown lutenists and if I was a famous master I would have liked to be portrayed more or less in a correct playing pose. Also there are many original tops that have a spot were the little finger rested and that spot is very close to the bridge or even behind the bridge. Of course it's possible that the playing technique varied from place to place but these are evidences we cannot completely ignore. Francesco -Original Message- From: Elias Fuchs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 4:35 PM To: David Cameron; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes I just want to say something about the often quoted old paintings. These paintings are to my opinion much too much relied upon with regard to lute technique, especially right hand (for instance drawing conclusions from a hand being far from the bridge or near, etc). I had read tons of justifications based on old paintings. Who can be sure, that a real lutenist was the model for the painting, or - beware! - a bad lutenist, or somebody with his own personal technique none has ever seen, so what? Was the painter primarily interested in a detailed lute technical description for us, or in his own esthetical end product? So hasn't the painter influenced the maybe even real lute player, telling him bad stuff like Hold your right hand a bit more in a way so I can also see your little finger, because that looks better for the painting, etc., you understand what I mean, the possibilities for a hand position that would not be representative, are endless! Elias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
I have not personally tried this approach, as : 1. It would cost a lot of money to buy an entire new set of strings in low tension, and 2. I have avoided the time it would take to develop a new technique. How about moving all the fretted strings over one position and the basses 2 or three over? Then you'd only need a couple of new strings. No, just tune your lute down a half or even whole tone. That's how Toyohikodoes his experiments, too, step by step. I've had the benefit of seeing and hearing his changes from close quarters, and it is fascinating to watch. A new technique is not easily acquired; it is a struggle. And in the quest for the perfect tension he ends up too low at times: warm sound, but no volume anymore. It is amazing what beautiful sound we can make on a much lower tension and how much resonance we can get in a lute. There's a theory that a high tension will stiffen the top and a lower tension will loosen it up; make it vibrate more easily. But if the tension is too low the strings will lack the energy to make the top vibrate at all. If we learn to listen differently there is much to discover in this balance of resonance. I have my archlute (all gut, of course) at a tension perfect for somewhere between 415 and 440, as it is needed for both. Recently I had to do a recording of Corelli at 392. I didn't change strings, I only changed playing position nearer to the bridge. I had problems with buzzing and such, but the sound was beautiful, better than before. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Omigod, Some excellent explorations of the subject of tension. But I wonder as to the knowledge involved. It is a tautology that the sound is an interaction between the soundboard, the body, and the strings. The lute, and all of its family (including guitar and charango, cittern and oud) depend in part on the resonance of the sound board. Come to think of it so does my harp. But in the case of the harp all the strings are of differing lengths, so the balance of tension is a matter of balancing the action of the strings and the bellying of the soundboard. With the lute family there is the opposite problem, pick the string dimensions to make a pitch with a similar tension, so as to have a similar action on each string - but one doesn't have to concern oneself with busting the soundboard. It can't happen. Busting the strings is the problem. There is an envelope of pitch, and surprisingly it is similar with any regular string material. This is more important in lute design than in harps, as all the strings on the lute are the same length (ok, no arch lutenists need comment). I have a test board, no sounding board for tone, just a test of pitch. Nylon, gut and Nylgut. And funny enough steel wire. They have about the same limitation as to pitch versus vibrating length. Bronze wire is a bit different (and needless to say this doesn't apply to wound bass strings). It is the string that is the limitation, the tension envelope between a clunk and a break isn't that wide, but it is quite perceptible both in tone and feeling. The bracing and the shaping of thickness are only a matter of enhancing the sounds of the strings. A lower tension on the same guage string obviously leads to a lower pitch, and a finer guage with the same tension leads to a higher pitch. Obvous. But the strings have two characteristics, tensile strength and density. The greater the density the lower the pitch (again obvious), but it so happens that the density, tension and tensile strength trade off happens to be about the same pitch when it comes to breaking point (the higher the density the greater the tensile strength, and the greater the tension for a given pitch). It just happens that those criteria meet at a common point. Within the measure of about one full tone it doesn't matter what string you use (excepting bronze), the lenght defines the available pitch before breaking point. But that is all BS, as one wants the string in a decent length for a musical tone, and it is a rather limited set of tensions (and I know nothing from putting it in Newtons, I knew Sir Isaac and he didn't look at that either a g from the old man). I'll guess, without proving it, that for each guage and each length there is a window of about a third or maybe a fourth. But probably more like a second for really good sound. But you all on the lute can easily test that, just downtune your instrument and find the musical envelope. Low tension and high tension are merely a matter of pitch (given that the string length and string materials are defined). Its bedtime so I won't get into the testing of the bracing (and the resonant frequencies of the instrument) but I think you've already figured it out. Its a lot of work, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. But if you really want to make the effort it is better to go back ass into it. Change the strings and the pitch, then find the resonating points of the soundboard. Not a process I intend to go through, my machine ain't perfect but it will do. Best. Jon - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 12:06 PM Subject: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes I'm really curious to hear the new recording by Satoh after reading your review in the Quarterly, Ed. Reading the Lundberg article in the Journal makes me wonder whether low tension on a converted Renaissance lute was perhaps a necessity and whether that set the 'tone' for lutes of the Baroque. Lundberg states that the tops on originally made Baroque lutes are thicker than Ren lute tops, especially in certain places. If Ren lutes were so sought after to be converted, yet were designed with thin tops to accommodate 6-8 courses, it seems only logical to compensate with less tension over more strings. I would like to ask the makers reading this to what extent re-bracing was done to accommodate increased tension. Of course, you could put a bar every inch, but there must be a downside to that. If 150 year old lutes were so sought after, as they apparently were, they must have prized them for their sound and not wanted to completely negate it by barring it completely differently, I would think. If this makes sense, the picture that emerges is one of Ren lutes having basically higher tension than Baroque lutes. This has far reaching implications concerning slurs, volume and who knows what else? What do you all think? It also begs the question of the tension
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
tuning down has always sounded authentic to me - especially when playing arabo-andalusian style, early christian music. in a similar thread on the charango.yahoo site someone mentioned bob brosman's comment that a lower tuning is wonderful for recording but no so good for playing live. - bill --- LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have not personally tried this approach, as : 1. It would cost a lot of money to buy an entire new set of strings in low tension, and 2. I have avoided the time it would take to develop a new technique. How about moving all the fretted strings over one position and the basses 2 or three over? Then you'd only need a couple of new strings. No, just tune your lute down a half or even whole tone. That's how Toyohikodoes his experiments, too, step by step. I've had the benefit of seeing and hearing his changes from close quarters, and it is fascinating to watch. A new technique is not easily acquired; it is a struggle. And in the quest for the perfect tension he ends up too low at times: warm sound, but no volume anymore. It is amazing what beautiful sound we can make on a much lower tension and how much resonance we can get in a lute. There's a theory that a high tension will stiffen the top and a lower tension will loosen it up; make it vibrate more easily. But if the tension is too low the strings will lack the energy to make the top vibrate at all. If we learn to listen differently there is much to discover in this balance of resonance. I have my archlute (all gut, of course) at a tension perfect for somewhere between 415 and 440, as it is needed for both. Recently I had to do a recording of Corelli at 392. I didn't change strings, I only changed playing position nearer to the bridge. I had problems with buzzing and such, but the sound was beautiful, better than before. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Thanks for your insight, David. I know that Toy is a good friend to you, and I am certain that you have observed his changes evolution in this subject. I only know the principles of it, without being involved. Years ago, I did tune my baroque lute down to 392, and I really liked it that way (using the same strings). It was very dark austere, but it had a lovely sound. Yes, I am sure it affects volume (loudness), but it makes up for it in sound. ed At 09:30 AM 11/21/2004 +0100, LGS-Europe wrote: I have not personally tried this approach, as : 1. It would cost a lot of money to buy an entire new set of strings in low tension, and 2. I have avoided the time it would take to develop a new technique. How about moving all the fretted strings over one position and the basses 2 or three over? Then you'd only need a couple of new strings. No, just tune your lute down a half or even whole tone. That's how Toyohikodoes his experiments, too, step by step. I've had the benefit of seeing and hearing his changes from close quarters, and it is fascinating to watch. A new technique is not easily acquired; it is a struggle. And in the quest for the perfect tension he ends up too low at times: warm sound, but no volume anymore. It is amazing what beautiful sound we can make on a much lower tension and how much resonance we can get in a lute. There's a theory that a high tension will stiffen the top and a lower tension will loosen it up; make it vibrate more easily. But if the tension is too low the strings will lack the energy to make the top vibrate at all. If we learn to listen differently there is much to discover in this balance of resonance. I have my archlute (all gut, of course) at a tension perfect for somewhere between 415 and 440, as it is needed for both. Recently I had to do a recording of Corelli at 392. I didn't change strings, I only changed playing position nearer to the bridge. I had problems with buzzing and such, but the sound was beautiful, better than before. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear lutenists, this is an interesting discussion! I have been sometimes thinking the opposite in theorbo stringing. The tension that for example A. Lawrence-King uses in his baroque harps seems to be (actually feels to be, I've tried to pluck his instruments sometimes) quite a lot more than theorbists use to use. And the sound is very nice! So what kind of string tension is normal in baroque harps? Our harpists, please tell us! :-) I understand that d-minor baroque lutes are very different beasts compared to theorboes... Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Dear all, this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Apparently he is postulating low tension stringing and close to the bridge playing for years. However, lowering the pitch with nylon stringing to my ears and fingers still doesn't give a good result when playing _very_ close to the bridge. :-( Regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Arto wrote: So what kind of string tension is normal in baroque harps? Our harpists, please tell us! :-) Steve writes: The tension of a baroque harp is indeed much higher than a lute or theorbo. On a small *lightly* strung arpa doppia the tensions range 2.8 to 9.1 kilos per string with a total tension of around 400 kilos. The strings feel almost flabby at this tension. A single row harp's tension can range anywhere from 2.3 kilos for the highest string to 29 kilos for the lowest string. The total tension is usually around 300 to 390 kilos but can go as high as 520 kilos depending on the instrument. A modern concert harp is under approximately 1500 kilos of tension. Many harpies buy their strings pre-packaged, sometimes with no choice as to tension. Experimenting with different strings can be prohibitively expensive. Steve Amazeen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Arto, Steve has given you some numbers on harp tensions, and I can't disagree. I can only add my own thoughts (and calculations). I'm totally unfamiliar with orchestral pedal harps - and am not sure how one defines a Baroque harp. The earlier harps, Medieval and Celtic, were normally wire strung so the tensions are not relevant to gut or nylon (although there is a coincidental anomoly that the breaking points (pitch vs. length) and tensions for gut, nylon and steel wire are rather similar (bronze is quite different). I have all the damned complicated formulae, but I won't burden you. The string characteristics are a combination of density per unit length and tensile strength. Modern nylon or gut strung lever (sometimes called folk) harps have a similar feel of tension to the old style wire harps (which are coming back into vogue - there are several in my ensemble, and a number of professionals are starting to use them for concerts). If it is important I could go to a string calculator and calculate the tensions on my harps, but not tonight. But for now I've taken the total tension from the specs of several harps I know and divided by the number of strings (and hopefully my old TI Scientific calculator made the conversion from pounds to kilos correctly - no chance it is my fault if the numbers are off - I couldn't possibly have pushed the wrong buttons g). I get a range of about 11 to 17 kilos per string on average. The variation seems to relate to the number of wound strings on the harp (a function of the range at the bass end). But the average must approximate the individual tensions else the playing feel would be all over the lot. Steve makes a good point when he says harpists (harpies) have a problem experimenting, my 26 string double strung (a variation on the arpa doppia, I believe) has 52 strings, playing around with alternate strings would get a bit expensive. Coming back to the point of the envelope that I mentioned in another message, the lower the tension the wider the oscillations of the string. That, and the fact that for each length, guage and tension there is a point where a string will just make a clunk instead of a musical sound, limits the low tension end of the envelope. (On a lute the string will buzz on the frets, on a harp it will buzz on a nearby finger). The high end is limited by the breaking point, which is dependant on the string material, pitch and length. For example my flat back kit from MusicMakers was designed too long for a G chanterelle (the maker has since modified it on my suggestion). I have found only fishing line (.017/44mm) will hold the pitch without breaking. Here is where the anomaly occurs, a lighter guage might seem to be the solution, but the lighter the guage the less the tensile strength, so the breaking pitch remains approximately the same. (Yes purists, I know the tensile strength is a function of the material, not the guage - but a thicker string has more material. Steel has a tensile strength, but a two inch rod will take more pull than a .5 mm wire). So to complete the cycle, there is an tension envelope for any stringed instrument, and the envelope is narrower in practice than in theory. I have a test board where I test the musical characteristics of different strings, but the movable bridges are quite high off the board, and the strings are far apart, so the width of the oscillations is irrelevant. But in practice one must consider the height above the frets, and the distance between the paired strings of a course, and with the harp the amount of finger room for the next string in a series (for instance the bass wound strings on my double strung are a bit too low in tension as if I play with fingers pre-placed - the recommended method - they tend to buzz on the back of the next finger). Of course I've left out the action matter in tension, but that is secondary and a matter of choice within a narrow range. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Edward Martin mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: usual practice at the time. If one tries to do this on a baroque lute strung conventionally as we string them in our modern times, the results are a harsh, brittle sound, because playing way back on the bridge, gives us entirely too much tension. I have an average of 2,5 to 3 N (too much?) _and_ a very low action. I try to strike the courses like you would be nervously tapping your fingertips on a table. The angle of my fingers toward the course is something like 45°. That's how I feel comfortable, and I'm rather content wiht the resulting sound which resembles, say, a virginal. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
At 2:31 PM -0600 11/20/04, Edward Martin wrote: These are good points, and good inquiries, Ed. The entire topic of tension of baroque lute stringing is fascinating, and we really do not have all the answers at this point time. What also interests me are the implications for Renaissance lutes. If Baroque lutes were lower tension, conversely Ren lutes were higher. Could it be that thumb under and playing nearer the rose are related consequentially to the higher tension of Ren lutes and that as courses were added and tension lowered the change to thumb out occurred? And how did string making technology contribute to these changes? I have had experience with this topic. In the 90's, I bought a new lute by Dan Larson; I pondered at the idea of converting this 7 course 63 cm. Frei into a 67.5 cm. 11 course French / German baroque lute. In consulting Dan Larson, he thought it was a great idea, and as there is precedence for doing this, he did it. Wow, historical re-enactment! The results are magnificent. I do not know what he did to change the braces, but it worked. Did he set the new neck and bridge symmetrically? I find it very interesting looking at the pictures in the journal how they had no qualms about taking a 150 year old masterpiece and making it lopsided. I'm not casting aspersions on them for doing that, they were living in a different time. Part of me, of course, is screaming 'how could you do that?!' They were very practical, the aesthetics seemed to take a back seat to the end result: beauty of sound for their kind of lute. the surviving baroque lutes do not have largely bored holes to accomodate thick strings. This perhaps has less to do with densifying strings than it has to do with using conventional strings using a smaller diameter, with resulting lower tension! Very, very interesting point. I have not seen Toyohiko do this, but judging from the sound of this Weichenbreger CD, the results are very, very clear and beautiful. I have not personally tried this approach, as : 1. It would cost a lot of money to buy an entire new set of strings in low tension, and 2. I have avoided the time it would take to develop a new technique. How about moving all the fretted strings over one position and the basses 2 or three over? Then you'd only need a couple of new strings. This topic has the potential to revolutionize the way we approach baroque lute, just as much as thumb under did for the renaissance lute back in the 70's. Viva la revolution. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
