Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Hal Kierstead]

I am of the opinion that when a Canadian, Englishman and an American write a 
paper 2/3 of the time “colour" should be used and 1/3 of the time “color” 
should be used—sorry, it is early.

Hal 

> On Mar 16, 2018, at 6:10 AM, Helge Hafting  wrote:
> 
> Den 20. jan. 2018 23:55, skrev Richard Heck:
>> 
>> Maybe another form of "paste special" that would just ignore the
>> language? That would probably take care of most of the use cases here.
>> 
>> Richard
> Good idea!  "Edit->Paste (discard language English (USA))" or whatever 
> language the pasted content supposedly has.
> 
> We have the same problem in Norwegian. There are two forms with some 
> systematic differences, but close enough that you paste from one form to the 
> other and just fix a few words. It'd be nice not having to also reset the 
> language.
> 
> There is no problem pasting without language and forgetting it, as the 
> spellchecker will notice that.
> 
> Helge Hafting

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Helge Hafting]

Den 20. jan. 2018 23:55, skrev Richard Heck:


Maybe another form of "paste special" that would just ignore the
language? That would probably take care of most of the use cases here.

Richard
Good idea!  "Edit->Paste (discard language English (USA))" or whatever 
language the pasted content supposedly has.


We have the same problem in Norwegian. There are two forms with some 
systematic differences, but close enough that you paste from one form to 
the other and just fix a few words. It'd be nice not having to also 
reset the language.


There is no problem pasting without language and forgetting it, as the 
spellchecker will notice that.


Helge Hafting

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Rich Shepard]

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018, Scott Kostyshak wrote:


Indeed, and it always assumes English it seems. Maybe we should at least
have LyX choose a language at random. That might be fun :)


Scott,

  Esperanto or Klingon would be neutral choices.

Rich

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 10:45:36PM +, Ricardo Berlasso wrote:
> 2018-01-20 23:39 GMT+01:00 Scott Kostyshak :
> 
> > I have a paper where I set the language to "English (USA)". I am not
> > normally so patriotic, but I do this to get the conventional quoting
> > used in USA journals where punctuation in the references are inside the
> > quotation marks, e.g., <<"This is a Title.">> instead of <<"This is a
> > Title".>>. I could instead set the language of Biblatex directly so the
> > following issue would not matter, but I am stubborn.
> >
> > Most of my other .lyx files use the language "English", and so whenever
> > I paste from one of those .lyx files into my "English (USA)" .lyx file,
> > the pasted text is (correctly) marked with a blue line because it is a
> > different language, "English". I then just need to select the text I
> > just pasted in and change it from "English" to "English (USA)." I do
> > this maneuver enough times that I find it annoying.
> >
> > Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
> > English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
> > change anything.
> >
> > If others do find this annoying, perhaps we can think of an improvement.
> > The ideal behavior for me would be that whenever I paste text that is in
> > language "mylanguage (x)" into a document that has language "mylanguage
> > (y)" and no other language, the text would be pasted as
> > "mylanguage (y)". However, thinking about what the LyX behavior should
> > be, I don't know what to suggest. On the one hand, I don't think we
> > should change the default behavior since it is correct to treat
> > "mylanguage (x)" and "mylanguage (y)" as different languages.
> > On the other, I don't think this is a big enough issue that we should
> > have a preference for it. So I don't know what to suggest.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> 
> This remembered me of this ticket
> 
> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9199

Ah that one must be annoying. Another one that is related is when
copying a formula and pasting into text:

  http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/2596

> LyX tends to do some language assumptions when pasting something ;)

Indeed, and it always assumes English it seems. Maybe we should at least
have LyX choose a language at random. That might be fun :)

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 10:29:45PM +, Guenter Milde wrote:
> On 2018-01-22, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> > On Saturday, 20 January 2018 22.39.46 WET Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> >> Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
> >> English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
> >> change anything.
> 
> > I do with the different variants of English, sometimes I use the UK
> > variant mainly because of the spelling (it is more natural to me to use
> > colour than color) and I incur in the same problems you described.
> 
> ...
> 
> I used to have this problem with de-1901 (german) vs. de-1996 (ngerman) but
> now almost all my documents use the new spelling.
> 
> Still suffer from a related problem when copying a formula from an English
> document to a German one, say.

> Unless there is text in it, a formula should
> be language agnostic, IMV.

Ah yes good point. A similar issue is when pasting a formula into text:

  http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/2596

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:49:05AM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> On Saturday, 20 January 2018 22.39.46 WET Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> > Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
> > English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
> > change anything.
> 
> I do with the different variants of English, sometimes I use the UK variant 
> mainly because of 
> the spelling (it is more natural to me to use colour than color) and I incur 
> in the same 
> problems you described.
> 
> It is not really a big problem more like a small annoyance so most of the 
> time when I have 
> this problems I reset the language of the affected test.
> 
> The context menu shows the option to change the language of the selection if 
> there are 
> more than two languages in the document. I use its absence as an indicator 
> that all those 
> issues are fixed.

Ah yes this is useful. I forgot that the context menu shows this. It is
a little better than going to Edit.

Indeed, it is a smally annoyance. But those ones are the most fun to
complain about.

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Ricardo Berlasso]

2018-01-20 23:39 GMT+01:00 Scott Kostyshak :

> I have a paper where I set the language to "English (USA)". I am not
> normally so patriotic, but I do this to get the conventional quoting
> used in USA journals where punctuation in the references are inside the
> quotation marks, e.g., <<"This is a Title.">> instead of <<"This is a
> Title".>>. I could instead set the language of Biblatex directly so the
> following issue would not matter, but I am stubborn.
>
> Most of my other .lyx files use the language "English", and so whenever
> I paste from one of those .lyx files into my "English (USA)" .lyx file,
> the pasted text is (correctly) marked with a blue line because it is a
> different language, "English". I then just need to select the text I
> just pasted in and change it from "English" to "English (USA)." I do
> this maneuver enough times that I find it annoying.
>
> Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
> English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
> change anything.
>
> If others do find this annoying, perhaps we can think of an improvement.
> The ideal behavior for me would be that whenever I paste text that is in
> language "mylanguage (x)" into a document that has language "mylanguage
> (y)" and no other language, the text would be pasted as
> "mylanguage (y)". However, thinking about what the LyX behavior should
> be, I don't know what to suggest. On the one hand, I don't think we
> should change the default behavior since it is correct to treat
> "mylanguage (x)" and "mylanguage (y)" as different languages.
> On the other, I don't think this is a big enough issue that we should
> have a preference for it. So I don't know what to suggest.
>
> Thoughts?
>

This remembered me of this ticket

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9199

LyX tends to do some language assumptions when pasting something ;)

Regards,
Ricardo



>
> Scott
>
>

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Guenter Milde]

On 2018-01-22, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> On Saturday, 20 January 2018 22.39.46 WET Scott Kostyshak wrote:
>> Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
>> English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
>> change anything.

> I do with the different variants of English, sometimes I use the UK
> variant mainly because of the spelling (it is more natural to me to use
> colour than color) and I incur in the same problems you described.

...

I used to have this problem with de-1901 (german) vs. de-1996 (ngerman) but
now almost all my documents use the new spelling.

Still suffer from a related problem when copying a formula from an English
document to a German one, say. Unless there is text in it, a formula should
be language agnostic, IMV.

Günter

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[José Abílio Matos]

On Saturday, 20 January 2018 22.39.46 WET Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
> English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
> change anything.

I do with the different variants of English, sometimes I use the UK variant 
mainly because of 
the spelling (it is more natural to me to use colour than color) and I incur in 
the same 
problems you described.

It is not really a big problem more like a small annoyance so most of the time 
when I have 
this problems I reset the language of the affected test.

The context menu shows the option to change the language of the selection if 
there are 
more than two languages in the document. I use its absence as an indicator that 
all those 
issues are fixed.

So you are not alone in your pain. :-)
-- 
José Abílio

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 09:22:22AM +, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

> I think this will be hard to get right. Also language varieties such as
> American and Britisch English or Swiss and German German differ in
> details (e.g. spelling or hyphenation rules). Changing the language
> automatically could result in subtle problems.
> 
> Having said that, your case is special since "English" and "English
> (USA)" refer to the same variety, American English. On the other hand,
> it also differs sometimes in LaTeX-generated output (as you observe
> yourself), so changing it without user intervention is problematic
> here, too.

OK that makes sense. Best not to change anything.

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 08:51:25PM +, Cris Fuhrman wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:
> 
> > I do this maneuver enough times that I find it annoying.
> >
> 
> I'd map the command to change language text to a hot key (I'm pretty sure I
> did this before with one of the text formatting things I found myself doing
> often).

This is a good idea! I'm not sure why, but I did not even think of
making a command-sequence that does what I want. Thanks, Cris!

> A possibly cool feature would be for LyX to detect that a user is often
> doing the same (uncommon) command and propose mapping it to a hot key? I'm
> sure some software somewhere does this...

Clippy? :)

> Asking people how often it happens (in the users forum) is likely to
> generate more heat than light, mainly because it's only from folks who are
> subscribed.

True, but if we can predict the bias, then it gives information. If no
one on lyx-users finds this issue to be common (as appears to be the
case here), then I think the average LyX user is even less likely to
come across the issue. I would just guess this because I think the
average LyX user is less likely to set some documents to "English" and
some to "English (USA)". But I'm not so confident in that guess.

> A more precise way to know would be to collect usage metrics
> for LyX, which was not a well liked idea from my recollection of that in
> the forum.

Yeah, that would have some benefits, but I don't think there is support
for it.

Thanks for your response,

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Cris Fuhrman]

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:

> I do this maneuver enough times that I find it annoying.
>

I'd map the command to change language text to a hot key (I'm pretty sure I
did this before with one of the text formatting things I found myself doing
often).

A possibly cool feature would be for LyX to detect that a user is often
doing the same (uncommon) command and propose mapping it to a hot key? I'm
sure some software somewhere does this...


> Thoughts?
>

Asking people how often it happens (in the users forum) is likely to
generate more heat than light, mainly because it's only from folks who are
subscribed. A more precise way to know would be to collect usage metrics
for LyX, which was not a well liked idea from my recollection of that in
the forum.

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Samstag, den 20.01.2018, 17:39 -0500 schrieb Scott Kostyshak:
> The ideal behavior for me would be that whenever I paste text that is
> in
> language "mylanguage (x)" into a document that has language
> "mylanguage
> (y)" and no other language, the text would be pasted as
> "mylanguage (y)". However, thinking about what the LyX behavior
> should
> be, I don't know what to suggest. On the one hand, I don't think we
> should change the default behavior since it is correct to treat
> "mylanguage (x)" and "mylanguage (y)" as different languages.
> On the other, I don't think this is a big enough issue that we should
> have a preference for it. So I don't know what to suggest.

I think this will be hard to get right. Also language varieties such as
American and Britisch English or Swiss and German German differ in
details (e.g. spelling or hyphenation rules). Changing the language
automatically could result in subtle problems.

Having said that, your case is special since "English" and "English
(USA)" refer to the same variety, American English. On the other hand,
it also differs sometimes in LaTeX-generated output (as you observe
yourself), so changing it without user intervention is problematic
here, too.

Jürgen

> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Scott
> 

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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 12:32:41AM +, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2018, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> 
> > If others do find this annoying, perhaps we can think of an improvement.
> > The ideal behavior for me would be that whenever I paste text that is in
> > language "mylanguage (x)" into a document that has language "mylanguage
> > (y)" and no other language, the text would be pasted as "mylanguage (y)".
> > However, thinking about what the LyX behavior should be, I don't know what
> > to suggest. On the one hand, I don't think we should change the default
> > behavior since it is correct to treat "mylanguage (x)" and "mylanguage
> > (y)" as different languages. On the other, I don't think this is a big
> > enough issue that we should have a preference for it. So I don't know what
> > to suggest.
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> 
> Scott,
> 
>   I stick with 'English (USA)' and don't have this issue. However, I offer
> the suggestion of a separate tool that can be invoked as desired by the
> user. It could be a script that pops up when lyx detects two flavors of a
> common language in a document, presents the two flavors, asks the user which
> is the flavor of the day (or ignore the differences as a third option), then
> modify the .lyx file and reload the working document.
> 
>   This does not force behavior on everyone and might be easier to implement
> and maintain.

Thanks for the idea, Rich. That could be interesting. Maybe a little
difficult to implement since we don't have a similar mechanism yet.

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 10:55:28PM +, Richard Heck wrote:

> Maybe another form of "paste special" that would just ignore the
> language? That would probably take care of most of the use cases here.

Yeah that could work.

Scott


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Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Rich Shepard]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2018, Scott Kostyshak wrote:


If others do find this annoying, perhaps we can think of an improvement.
The ideal behavior for me would be that whenever I paste text that is in
language "mylanguage (x)" into a document that has language "mylanguage
(y)" and no other language, the text would be pasted as "mylanguage (y)".
However, thinking about what the LyX behavior should be, I don't know what
to suggest. On the one hand, I don't think we should change the default
behavior since it is correct to treat "mylanguage (x)" and "mylanguage
(y)" as different languages. On the other, I don't think this is a big
enough issue that we should have a preference for it. So I don't know what
to suggest.

Thoughts?


Scott,

  I stick with 'English (USA)' and don't have this issue. However, I offer
the suggestion of a separate tool that can be invoked as desired by the
user. It could be a script that pops up when lyx detects two flavors of a
common language in a document, presents the two flavors, asks the user which
is the flavor of the day (or ignore the differences as a third option), then
modify the .lyx file and reload the working document.

  This does not force behavior on everyone and might be easier to implement
and maintain.

Regards,

Rich

Re: LyX-to-LyX pasting from "English" to "English (USA)" annoyances

[Richard Heck]

On 01/20/2018 05:39 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> I have a paper where I set the language to "English (USA)". I am not
> normally so patriotic, but I do this to get the conventional quoting
> used in USA journals where punctuation in the references are inside the
> quotation marks, e.g., <<"This is a Title.">> instead of <<"This is a
> Title".>>. I could instead set the language of Biblatex directly so the
> following issue would not matter, but I am stubborn.
>
> Most of my other .lyx files use the language "English", and so whenever
> I paste from one of those .lyx files into my "English (USA)" .lyx file,
> the pasted text is (correctly) marked with a blue line because it is a
> different language, "English". I then just need to select the text I
> just pasted in and change it from "English" to "English (USA)." I do
> this maneuver enough times that I find it annoying.
>
> Does anyone else run into this annoyance, e.g., with other forms of
> English, French, German, etc? If not, then I don't think we should
> change anything.
>
> If others do find this annoying, perhaps we can think of an improvement.
> The ideal behavior for me would be that whenever I paste text that is in
> language "mylanguage (x)" into a document that has language "mylanguage
> (y)" and no other language, the text would be pasted as
> "mylanguage (y)". However, thinking about what the LyX behavior should
> be, I don't know what to suggest. On the one hand, I don't think we
> should change the default behavior since it is correct to treat
> "mylanguage (x)" and "mylanguage (y)" as different languages.
> On the other, I don't think this is a big enough issue that we should
> have a preference for it. So I don't know what to suggest.
>
> Thoughts?

Maybe another form of "paste special" that would just ignore the
language? That would probably take care of most of the use cases here.

Richard