Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 14:33 +0200, ext e...@okerson.com wrote: Hi, Faheem Pervez wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. Dave Neary wrote: I don't know the details of the situation. I just want to remind you that the GPL is a distribution licence. That's why we don't get all Google's changes to the Linux kernel and Apache back upstream. It seems that I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. But Google isn't distributing their Linux Kernel or Apache, Nokia is distributing the initfs. Which is why Nokia is violating the GPL (I haven't checked myself that code is not being distributed for stuff in initfs). I'd say the best option is to poke Quim Gil as I assume he's the correct person to handle this (I'm CC'ing him although I assume he reads this list). Cheers, -- Maemo Software Nokia Devices ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Oops. Forgot to CC him. On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 14:33 +0200, ext e...@okerson.com wrote: Hi, Faheem Pervez wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. Dave Neary wrote: I don't know the details of the situation. I just want to remind you that the GPL is a distribution licence. That's why we don't get all Google's changes to the Linux kernel and Apache back upstream. It seems that I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. But Google isn't distributing their Linux Kernel or Apache, Nokia is distributing the initfs. Which is why Nokia is violating the GPL (I haven't checked myself that code is not being distributed for stuff in initfs). I'd say the best option is to poke Quim Gil as I assume he's the correct person to handle this (I'm CC'ing him although I assume he reads this list). Cheers, -- Maemo Software Nokia Devices ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Dave Neary schrieb: Hi, Faheem Pervez wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. I don't know the details of the situation. I just want to remind you that the GPL is a distribution licence. That's why we don't get all Google's changes to the Linux kernel and Apache back upstream. It seems Well, Google publishes all the sources, see http://android.git.kernel.org/ This git seems impressively complete. But this is OT here since we are talking about Nokia/Maemo. Concerning obligations, Nokia nor anyone else is obliged by the license to push changes upstream - it is just good practise. You only have to give access to the changes or the whole (modified) source package, which Nokia in 99.9% of the cases properly did and which Google using the git, as far as we can tell from just looking at it, also did. What we can really moan and complain about is the lack of good practise with some businesses, since already mentioned, e.g. Google. They did a pretty bad job in working *together* with the communities to get their thing done. This is quite in contrast with Nokia which collaborated quite well from the very early beginning of the Maemo project. There is always room for improvement, but hey... But what really sucks badly is the tivolization taking place especially in the mobile phone area, where you get all the sources (due to license) and probably most of the tools but you f*ckn' cannot get a modified version of some part onto the device. This *really* sucks! And frankly it really hurts me. (For the Google stuff by some lucky coincidence the engineering bootloader leaked and a way to root the device but this was not intended neither by Google, HTC nor T-mobile). And here Nokia again is a little more open than many others by providing the flasher util, which basically allows you to install anything onto your tablet. I sincerely hope that this openness continues when Nokia releases Linux based mobile phones some day... that I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. I might be wrong here but I am pretty sure that the GPL also requires you to give access to the tools that were used to generate the shipped version from the (L)GPLed sources. A little more specifically see: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-guide.html section 4.2.3 So you need at least have to say which *exact* tools were used and how they were used to produce the binary you shipped. So you do not necessarily have to directly supply them but you have to exactly name them and the way they ought to be used to reproduce the binary you shipped. Well, fair enough... I would also expect, though it is not mentioned there directly, that those tools have to available to everyone - with a price-tag maybe, but must be available. Cheers, Dave. Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
jarmo.ti...@nokia.com wrote: BTW I think flasher is the only closed source tool we have in maemo development environment. Or at least I do not know any other binary only tool :). I think gcc/uclibc toolchain for initfs development would qualify but it is much worse here, we even don't have the tool (despite GPL) :-( https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3373 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Hi, -Original Message- From: ext Frantisek Dufka [mailto:duf...@seznam.cz] Sent: 02 July, 2009 09:46 Fremantle and Diablo released jarmo.ti...@nokia.com wrote: BTW I think flasher is the only closed source tool we have in maemo development environment. Or at least I do not know any other binary only tool :). I think gcc/uclibc toolchain for initfs development would qualify but it is much worse here, we even don't have the tool (despite GPL) :-( https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3373 Good point and there actually are even more closed tools or tools that we do not publish in maemo.org but we use internally to develop certain components (especially for those that are very close to the HW as they may require HW vendor toolchain to be used). When I said that we do not have other closed tools in maemo than flasher I ment tools that we publish in maemo.org. For initfs development (and development of some very hw related components like DSP, codecs, driverts,...) these have never been supported officially in maemo and so we have not released toolchain for them either. There were plan to start supporting initfs development as we already support development of rootfs components and kernel/kernel modules but as Fremantle does not have initfs anymore these plans were not implemented. And I do not belive we have any plans to release toolchain for initfs development for Diablo anymore. Cheers, //Jarmo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. On 7/2/09, jarmo.ti...@nokia.com jarmo.ti...@nokia.com wrote: And I do not belive we have any plans to release toolchain for initfs development for Diablo anymore. Cheers, //Jarmo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
(Well, s/you/Nokia/) On 7/2/09, Faheem Pervez tripp...@gmail.com wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. On 7/2/09, jarmo.ti...@nokia.com jarmo.ti...@nokia.com wrote: And I do not belive we have any plans to release toolchain for initfs development for Diablo anymore. Cheers, //Jarmo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Hi, Faheem Pervez wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. I don't know the details of the situation. I just want to remind you that the GPL is a distribution licence. That's why we don't get all Google's changes to the Linux kernel and Apache back upstream. It seems that I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: bo...@jabber.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Hi, I'm certainly far from being a licensing expert. But there is a paragraph on a page at the busybox site which does make it clear wrt busybox and releasing source: http://www.busybox.net/license.html I see a /mnt/initfs/bin/busybox but I don't see the source available for the busybox 1.00 used in the initfs. But Mohammed's reply on the bug in question does give me a little more hope. Best Regards, Faheem On 7/2/09, Dave Neary dne...@maemo.org wrote: Hi, Faheem Pervez wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. I don't know the details of the situation. I just want to remind you that the GPL is a distribution licence. That's why we don't get all Google's changes to the Linux kernel and Apache back upstream. It seems that I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: bo...@jabber.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Hi, Faheem Pervez wrote: You sure you have a choice in the matter? Considering how you're already violating the GPL. Dave Neary wrote: I don't know the details of the situation. I just want to remind you that the GPL is a distribution licence. That's why we don't get all Google's changes to the Linux kernel and Apache back upstream. It seems that I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. But Google isn't distributing their Linux Kernel or Apache, Nokia is distributing the initfs. Ed Okerson ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Dave Neary wrote: I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. Let's move detailed discussion back to the bug report. Quick and hopefully correct summary is that Nokia is distributing modified uclibc (EABI patched 0.9.28) so we should get at least exact uclibc sources used for building initfs. That is indeed enough to satisfy GPL and also to close the bug report since we can rebuild gcc with such uclibc and make the toolchain ourselves. uclibc is IMO really the tricky part, PCMIIAW but 0.9.28 does not support EABI out of box, there are several (maybe incomplete) patches to add EABI support to 0.9.28 mentioned in uclibc mailing list so it is quite hard to decide which specific version (if any) went into the binary which is distributed with the tablets. The original request is for toolchain binary since my idea was that it is easier for both sides (the binary exists inside Nokia - name was mentioned is OS2007 hacker edition guide, and hopefully there is no reason to keep the sources or binaries of gcc closed). Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released
Hi, -Original Message- From: ext Frantisek Dufka [mailto:duf...@seznam.cz] Sent: 02 July, 2009 15:54 To: Dave Neary Cc: Faheem Pervez; maemo-developers@maemo.org; Tikka Jarmo (Nokia-D/Helsinki) Subject: Re: closed tools, Re: Maemo Flasher-3.5 Tool Beta for Fremantle and Diablo released Dave Neary wrote: I've seen people say that Nokia doesn't even distribute the initfs tools. If that's the case, there wouldn't be any GPL violation. Let's move detailed discussion back to the bug report. Please do :). Especially if there are any Nokia modified open source (GPLed that requires sources to be published) packages that we do not have sources available from SDK repository just file bug reports about those. This initfs has been somewhat problematic as it's components have not been part of rootfs or kernel for which maemo SDK team ahs provided sources from SDK repository. Because we have not had official toolchain for initfs development SDK team has not (if you so say) published all OSS components from it. This will most probably be fixed with Fremantle as now initfs components are part of rootfs (e.g. SDK rootstraps) and I think we have sources for all SDK rootstrap components in SDK repository. Quick and hopefully correct summary is that Nokia is distributing modified uclibc (EABI patched 0.9.28) so we should get at least exact uclibc sources used for building initfs. That is indeed enough to satisfy GPL and also to close the bug report since we can rebuild gcc with such uclibc and make the toolchain ourselves. Write one bug report for each final platform release about GPLed components that you think are modified by Nokia but sources are not available from maemo.org to the maemo bugzilla. If those components are in initfs our platform teams probably need to release sources in some separate packages because we in SDK team construct our SDK rootstraps by rebuilding them from scratch and initfs components are not part of that process in Diablo (but should be in Fremantle). uclibc is IMO really the tricky part, PCMIIAW but 0.9.28 does not support EABI out of box, there are several (maybe incomplete) patches to add EABI support to 0.9.28 mentioned in uclibc mailing list so it is quite hard to decide which specific version (if any) went into the binary which is distributed with the tablets. Just add uclibc into that bug report for Diablo platform release. If you find similar packages from SDK (there really should not be any as I really think we release all sources for all SDK OSS components) write separate bug report for Diablo SDK because Diablo plaform in device and Diablo SDK are separate products. The original request is for toolchain binary since my idea was that it is easier for both sides (the binary exists inside Nokia - name was mentioned is OS2007 hacker edition guide, and hopefully there is no reason to keep the sources or binaries of gcc closed). If we have modified some OSS components and deliver binaries as part of our products (platform and SDK) we release also modified sources for them. Just write bug reports about them. Still I do not think we will release any new toolchains for Diablo as toochains are part of SDK product and need to be tested and documented and ... Cheers, //Jarmo Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
