Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
On 2/12/13 5:48 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: Ok I've done it this way. If someone would prefer a different structure just let me know, but i think it makes sense. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO4+-+Complete+Design+Proposals thanks, I think having all proposals in a similar form will help us to make a decision. I believe we need somebody who takes leadership for this branding refresh project and drive it. I proposed a schedule for AOO 4.0 on the dev list and aligned with this we should have a new logo (intro, splash screen, about) and new app and file icons in place until April 4th. Time is going forward and we should push this. It's an important piece for the release. Who is interested to drive this forward and will push the necessary steps? I don't have really the time for it and I believe others can do it better than me. The key point is that somebody drives it and keep it focused to a date and to find a decision. We will have probably several proposal which all have their advantages. People will have different opinions about the different proposals and that is normal. But in the end we need ONE consistent new branding with the design elements - logo, for different use cases (intro screen, start center, about, webpage, wiki, blog, merchandising, ...) - application icons - file icons - ?? Juergen Robin On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:45, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 4:35 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: I have made a more complete design proposal with colours, icons, and some basic guidelines (it's all in one file) and have no idea where to post it. I could either put it in one of the existing pages or create a new one for complete design proposals. Any suggestions? I would prefer one sub page for each proposal and an overview of all Juergen Well done on the structuring btw. Robin On 9 Feb 2013, at 12:32, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 08/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote: Ok I just cranked away at it for a couple hours collecting where AOO branding is applied. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project Very nice pages (and subpages), thanks for taking the lead here. As for the selection process, I agree with Rob (and those who proposed it earlier) that it's better, also for publicity and for putting low entry barriers, to ask volunteers to provide at least a basic logo as a start, shortlist a few (about 3) proposals and get a more complete branding proposals for those ones, before the final selection is made. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
Regarding restructuring the various pages, kindly let me know how pages need redesign. Among us there is a good graphic designer (I forgot his name. Is it you?) . With his help I can carry on the job with proper monitoring guidance from you and Rob Weir. I can do the layout of the contents, bring the functionality etc. Anybody has good knowledge in Joomla! For the past few weeks I am learning it. But I find lot of limitations in using it. But it may be easier to design attractive sites using Joomla! by importing / buying good templates With Warm Regards V.Kadal Amutham 919444360480 914422396480 On 20 February 2013 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 5:48 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: Ok I've done it this way. If someone would prefer a different structure just let me know, but i think it makes sense. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO4+-+Complete+Design+Proposals thanks, I think having all proposals in a similar form will help us to make a decision. I believe we need somebody who takes leadership for this branding refresh project and drive it. I proposed a schedule for AOO 4.0 on the dev list and aligned with this we should have a new logo (intro, splash screen, about) and new app and file icons in place until April 4th. Time is going forward and we should push this. It's an important piece for the release. Who is interested to drive this forward and will push the necessary steps? I don't have really the time for it and I believe others can do it better than me. The key point is that somebody drives it and keep it focused to a date and to find a decision. We will have probably several proposal which all have their advantages. People will have different opinions about the different proposals and that is normal. But in the end we need ONE consistent new branding with the design elements - logo, for different use cases (intro screen, start center, about, webpage, wiki, blog, merchandising, ...) - application icons - file icons - ?? Juergen Robin On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:45, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 4:35 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: I have made a more complete design proposal with colours, icons, and some basic guidelines (it's all in one file) and have no idea where to post it. I could either put it in one of the existing pages or create a new one for complete design proposals. Any suggestions? I would prefer one sub page for each proposal and an overview of all Juergen Well done on the structuring btw. Robin On 9 Feb 2013, at 12:32, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 08/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote: Ok I just cranked away at it for a couple hours collecting where AOO branding is applied. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project Very nice pages (and subpages), thanks for taking the lead here. As for the selection process, I agree with Rob (and those who proposed it earlier) that it's better, also for publicity and for putting low entry barriers, to ask volunteers to provide at least a basic logo as a start, shortlist a few (about 3) proposals and get a more complete branding proposals for those ones, before the final selection is made. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
I've updated my proposal with a website overhaul (just the homepage for now). https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/01+-+Design+Proposal+Robin+Fowler+-+12.02.2013 I'm willing to push this forward, but it won't work without feedback. I have had no feedback so far on the branding proposal so i have no clue whether it's something there's interest in or not. I have to know that we can agree on my design (or anyone else's design) before I (we) put more work into it. Otherwise it's potentially a huge waste of time. If we can collectively agree on certain proposals then we can concentrate on refining and implementing them. I liked the way people gave feedback for my logo design, that really enhanced it. I think more of that is needed, regardless of whose design we're talking about. Robin On 20 Feb 2013, at 12:50, Kadal Amutham vka...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding restructuring the various pages, kindly let me know how pages need redesign. Among us there is a good graphic designer (I forgot his name. Is it you?) . With his help I can carry on the job with proper monitoring guidance from you and Rob Weir. I can do the layout of the contents, bring the functionality etc. Anybody has good knowledge in Joomla! For the past few weeks I am learning it. But I find lot of limitations in using it. But it may be easier to design attractive sites using Joomla! by importing / buying good templates With Warm Regards V.Kadal Amutham 919444360480 914422396480 On 20 February 2013 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 5:48 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: Ok I've done it this way. If someone would prefer a different structure just let me know, but i think it makes sense. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO4+-+Complete+Design+Proposals thanks, I think having all proposals in a similar form will help us to make a decision. I believe we need somebody who takes leadership for this branding refresh project and drive it. I proposed a schedule for AOO 4.0 on the dev list and aligned with this we should have a new logo (intro, splash screen, about) and new app and file icons in place until April 4th. Time is going forward and we should push this. It's an important piece for the release. Who is interested to drive this forward and will push the necessary steps? I don't have really the time for it and I believe others can do it better than me. The key point is that somebody drives it and keep it focused to a date and to find a decision. We will have probably several proposal which all have their advantages. People will have different opinions about the different proposals and that is normal. But in the end we need ONE consistent new branding with the design elements - logo, for different use cases (intro screen, start center, about, webpage, wiki, blog, merchandising, ...) - application icons - file icons - ?? Juergen Robin On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:45, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 4:35 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: I have made a more complete design proposal with colours, icons, and some basic guidelines (it's all in one file) and have no idea where to post it. I could either put it in one of the existing pages or create a new one for complete design proposals. Any suggestions? I would prefer one sub page for each proposal and an overview of all Juergen Well done on the structuring btw. Robin On 9 Feb 2013, at 12:32, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 08/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote: Ok I just cranked away at it for a couple hours collecting where AOO branding is applied. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project Very nice pages (and subpages), thanks for taking the lead here. As for the selection process, I agree with Rob (and those who proposed it earlier) that it's better, also for publicity and for putting low entry barriers, to ask volunteers to provide at least a basic logo as a start, shortlist a few (about 3) proposals and get a more complete branding proposals for those ones, before the final selection is made. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
I am heading this effort. Just collecting and preparing all the contexts for branding was a time consumer. I also tried to come up with requirements based on researching about design and what we've done in the past. eg. see the icons branding page. One thing I'm concerned about is how to work with our volunteer designers and keep them motivated. I don't want to loose a talented designer if we don't go with their idea. At the same time, if we do pick your idea congrats you're awesome, but we will make alterations and that might mean more of others ideas but definitely not less your ideas, we're starting with your proposal no? I'm working in good faith. That designers are committed to making a great product and great brand and its not about winning. I really didn't like the competition idea because I thought after we polarize the whole event, a free for all about winning, how do we get the losers to work together to brand everything someone else's idea. Talk about a swallowing a pill. I want us to all work together to come up with a fresh new look, but at the end of the day we need to pick something and I don't want anyone to take it personally if we don't go further with their design. I'll send a new thread in dev and marketing asking for all proposals to be submitted before Saturday Morning. They don't have to be complete proposals, if its just a splash screen, start screen redesign etc etc. So I'm thinking this, I will pick a direction and make a case to present to our community, once we're okay with it in lazy consensus I can present it to the whole community with extra detail that it passed marketing with lazy consensus (to not clutter dev thread with a bad idea), but we're looking for everyone to be on board. Then designers will be happy to get started on actual design work. Samer Mansour On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 5:47 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.comwrote: On 2/12/13 5:48 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: Ok I've done it this way. If someone would prefer a different structure just let me know, but i think it makes sense. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO4+-+Complete+Design+Proposals thanks, I think having all proposals in a similar form will help us to make a decision. I believe we need somebody who takes leadership for this branding refresh project and drive it. I proposed a schedule for AOO 4.0 on the dev list and aligned with this we should have a new logo (intro, splash screen, about) and new app and file icons in place until April 4th. Time is going forward and we should push this. It's an important piece for the release. Who is interested to drive this forward and will push the necessary steps? I don't have really the time for it and I believe others can do it better than me. The key point is that somebody drives it and keep it focused to a date and to find a decision. We will have probably several proposal which all have their advantages. People will have different opinions about the different proposals and that is normal. But in the end we need ONE consistent new branding with the design elements - logo, for different use cases (intro screen, start center, about, webpage, wiki, blog, merchandising, ...) - application icons - file icons - ?? Juergen Robin On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:45, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 4:35 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: I have made a more complete design proposal with colours, icons, and some basic guidelines (it's all in one file) and have no idea where to post it. I could either put it in one of the existing pages or create a new one for complete design proposals. Any suggestions? I would prefer one sub page for each proposal and an overview of all Juergen Well done on the structuring btw. Robin On 9 Feb 2013, at 12:32, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 08/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote: Ok I just cranked away at it for a couple hours collecting where AOO branding is applied. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project Very nice pages (and subpages), thanks for taking the lead here. As for the selection process, I agree with Rob (and those who proposed it earlier) that it's better, also for publicity and for putting low entry barriers, to ask volunteers to provide at least a basic logo as a start, shortlist a few (about 3) proposals and get a more complete branding proposals for those ones, before the final selection is made. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
Robin, You just hit on my points, I thought this was the feeling everyone was getting. Ok I'm going to push through dev and marketing mailing lists to close up proposals, I'll also ask dev thread to give feedback in the cwiki comments. You'll get even more feedback this way. But know, not all comments will be nice, and not all feedback should be taken... some people just have really bad design ideas/comments haha. Samer On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Robin Fowler audio.fow...@googlemail.comwrote: I've updated my proposal with a website overhaul (just the homepage for now). https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/01+-+Design+Proposal+Robin+Fowler+-+12.02.2013 I'm willing to push this forward, but it won't work without feedback. I have had no feedback so far on the branding proposal so i have no clue whether it's something there's interest in or not. I have to know that we can agree on my design (or anyone else's design) before I (we) put more work into it. Otherwise it's potentially a huge waste of time. If we can collectively agree on certain proposals then we can concentrate on refining and implementing them. I liked the way people gave feedback for my logo design, that really enhanced it. I think more of that is needed, regardless of whose design we're talking about. Robin On 20 Feb 2013, at 12:50, Kadal Amutham vka...@gmail.com wrote: Regarding restructuring the various pages, kindly let me know how pages need redesign. Among us there is a good graphic designer (I forgot his name. Is it you?) . With his help I can carry on the job with proper monitoring guidance from you and Rob Weir. I can do the layout of the contents, bring the functionality etc. Anybody has good knowledge in Joomla! For the past few weeks I am learning it. But I find lot of limitations in using it. But it may be easier to design attractive sites using Joomla! by importing / buying good templates With Warm Regards V.Kadal Amutham 919444360480 914422396480 On 20 February 2013 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 5:48 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: Ok I've done it this way. If someone would prefer a different structure just let me know, but i think it makes sense. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO4+-+Complete+Design+Proposals thanks, I think having all proposals in a similar form will help us to make a decision. I believe we need somebody who takes leadership for this branding refresh project and drive it. I proposed a schedule for AOO 4.0 on the dev list and aligned with this we should have a new logo (intro, splash screen, about) and new app and file icons in place until April 4th. Time is going forward and we should push this. It's an important piece for the release. Who is interested to drive this forward and will push the necessary steps? I don't have really the time for it and I believe others can do it better than me. The key point is that somebody drives it and keep it focused to a date and to find a decision. We will have probably several proposal which all have their advantages. People will have different opinions about the different proposals and that is normal. But in the end we need ONE consistent new branding with the design elements - logo, for different use cases (intro screen, start center, about, webpage, wiki, blog, merchandising, ...) - application icons - file icons - ?? Juergen Robin On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:45, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/12/13 4:35 PM, Robin Fowler wrote: I have made a more complete design proposal with colours, icons, and some basic guidelines (it's all in one file) and have no idea where to post it. I could either put it in one of the existing pages or create a new one for complete design proposals. Any suggestions? I would prefer one sub page for each proposal and an overview of all Juergen Well done on the structuring btw. Robin On 9 Feb 2013, at 12:32, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 08/02/2013 Samer Mansour wrote: Ok I just cranked away at it for a couple hours collecting where AOO branding is applied. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project Very nice pages (and subpages), thanks for taking the lead here. As for the selection process, I agree with Rob (and those who proposed it earlier) that it's better, also for publicity and for putting low entry barriers, to ask volunteers to provide at least a basic logo as a start, shortlist a few (about 3) proposals and get a more complete branding proposals for those ones, before the final selection is made. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
A couple of general comments from the sidelines and trademarks@ point of view: On 2/8/2013 2:32 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: Ok I just cranked away at it for a couple hours collecting where AOO branding is applied. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+Brand+Refresh+Project Great to see the organization and energy happening here! To clarify, trademarks@ suggests a couple of updates to the Criteria For Logo Branding section of the Brand Refresh Project. 1. The primary criteria is that whatever logos, designs, etc. selected as a final brand must be suitable for use as trademarks. I.e. the ASF must have sufficient rights to use this brand on behalf of the AOO project, and be able to defend the use of this brand in the future if needed. Depending on what the final brand look is created from, we may want to ask the creator for an explicit legal grant of trademark rights, just to ensure there are no future questions about it. 2. Separately, (reading through the Restrictions on that page) if the PMC specifically wanted to, other Apache branding elements could be included in the AOO branding. While it's certainly never required, it is permissible for Apache projects to use the Apache feather as part of their brand as long as it's done in an appropriate fashion. While personally I love the Apache feather, I'm torn to say if I think it'd would be a good idea in a future AOO logo. It would certainly introduce the ASF heritage to the broad OOo/AOO end community, but I don't actually know if is necessarily the best element to add, given the existing recognition of the gulls and the blue orb. Also, the Apache feather is rather complex and is not always easy to scale. In any case, deciding if you want to include the Apache feather is completely up to the PMC - I just wanted to let people know it is an option. ... I need to take a separate sit down to collect the websites we have to document branding there. I imagine some are not customizable, like bugzilla, but we are interested in updating logos in places. Hyperlinks and verbiage should say Apache OpenOffice Bug Tracker. This is also an easy fix, not documenting that, just CMS changes. It's great to include all the developer-facing sites - like the bug tracker, etc.) in the planning. My only comment is that if we need to prioritize, I'd think that the end-user facing sites are most important to get the details consistent on. The more developer-centric parts of the website are relatively less important, if it comes down to a question of available volunteer energy to actually complete changes. Separately, (in the future), might there be any thought of a partial sub-brand for the developer side of the house? I.e. some additional logos or styling for people who are interested in building extensions, or submitting real code patches or joining the committers or the like. (Note: I can't volunteer here, just throwing out an idea now that people are getting organized about branding!) - Shane
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
Would it be ok to change this from a contest to more of a team-work effort? Or is our hearts set on having a contest. In a team effort we could take everyone proposals and integrate and adapt the best practices and most liked parts. In a team effort we could cut up the different branding tasks and assign them out. I think we can build a brand together better than we can individually. We certainly can have a contest in a different area though, like a promotional video. I feel that a brand shouldn't be something up to a contest, and a RFP process is too bureaucratic for a voluntary organization. Does anyone feel similar? I don't know if people are thinking the same as well. Specially because a lot of time has passed. I am willing to take responsibility to drive the effort and work with the volunteers who have already prepared work on the wiki and are willing and waiting. I would head the proposal for a new branding, organize the volunteers to work together or integrate each other's ideas or designs. Then from it we could take two or three full brand proposals and host them on the wiki, then have the AOO community vote on those. I would provide and organize all the material on the wiki, work with volunteers to achieve their goals, yet satisfy our criteria. I would communicate with marketing team to capture that criteria or even just to confirm what I make is fine. I would have to do my due diligence in researching branding so that our talented designers doesn't need to worry about it. Does anyone have an objection to me taking responsibility, working with the designers and changing this effort to team based? Samer On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Graham Lauder g.a.lau...@gmail.com wrote: Firstly an apology for my extended absence, however the contract that has been consuming my time finishes tomorrow so I shall be unemployed and able to devote some time to AOO once again. On Tuesday 05 Feb 2013 13:50:35 Samer Mansour wrote: I just talked to a few full time designers at IBM I ran into while at lunch and showed them the proposals so far just as a what do you think? Just saying this now, my design got slammed, after they told me tips and feedback I was convinced it was bad, even though I thought very highly of it 10 mins prior. I think I want to pull it out at this point, but we'll leave it up as what not to do... I love the IBM design team! :) Take it as a learning experience however. The one time I made a gentle criticism of someones art work on the old OOo art project list I got attacked and abused and the guy never talked to me again! :D So I tend to be a little deferential these days. They are so right however and I think I tried to cover those things in the original proposal mail. Take some time to read the original proposal for the RFP thread on Gmane here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.ooo.devel/27742 Branding is not just a logo there is a whole raft of considerations that need to go into a brand. This site explains the types of considerations, they are a commercial desgn house but they explain it quite well: http://www.redfiredesign.co.nz/difference-between-a-brand-and-a-logo/ We don't want just a logo, we want a brand. That brand has to have impact, be unique, and tell the world about AOO across multiple cultures and languages. Remember; OOo had around 120 Native language projects, it is a global brand and the brand has to reflect that. I would recommend anyone here to reach out to designers they know and ask them for feedback on the proposal pages, ideas they have. The more knowledge and feedback we collect the better we are going into this. I can summarize their feedback and some helpful points. We don't have to do any changes we don't feel are right, but it could only help us to hear this. No particular order, I wrote down points, just writing them out detailed now. 1. It has to be reproducible. Chris R's is a great example, very simple logo. Both logo's with feathers would be a nightmare to reproduce. Suggested not to be part of the logo, but it can be part of a website design or splash screen, refresh/changes with versions. 2. It does not need to be part of the icons. Bonus points if you can make them related though. Tips for icons - Can't go solely on colours for distinguishing modules. - Primary detail (Table, Sigma, Database, Text Lines, etc.) should be fairly large and pronounced as the main idea being communicated to the user visually in the icon. - Secondary detail - (brand) smaller, eg. single small bird in corner to tie it to the brand, again optional and remove for simplicity. - Do not user language characters, as it does not internationalize well, ie C for calc, M for math. Criticism seen in Adobe products (they get away with it). Sigma is fine, as its internationally known. 3. Font What's in is thin, sleek fonts.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
I don't know what exactly was meant by reproducible. It was points on a note pad I scribbled while they were talking... I think it helped me on a meta level for requirements. What is important in the logo to us? eg. I think we can agree the gulls are. eg. Must integrate the idea of the gulls, but not necessarily the existing gull shape(s) Maybe we come up with Primary Requirements and some Secondary Considerations we find important but not as important. I will try to head this and give it more attention. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Brand+Contest+RFP I will review and revamp that page. Then I'll post it here and dev for thoughts. Agree, a wine expert is not going to tell me what wine I like. But they might be able to suggest a wine that's in right now and that a lot of people like. Expert's advice is often what is integrated into many commercial products. So it does hold some value and shouldn't be completely dismissed from consideration. I suggest we frame it as we're looking for a logo refresh, not a new logo. We have a lot of history and loyal users from OOo days and even AOO 3.4.1 that we want to reflect this as a refresh, we're improved. Not new. 4.0! Agree? Samer On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Samer Mansour samer...@gmail.com wrote: I just talked to a few full time designers at IBM I ran into while at lunch and showed them the proposals so far just as a what do you think? Just saying this now, my design got slammed, after they told me tips and feedback I was convinced it was bad, even though I thought very highly of it 10 mins prior. I think I want to pull it out at this point, but we'll leave it up as what not to do... I would recommend anyone here to reach out to designers they know and ask them for feedback on the proposal pages, ideas they have. The more knowledge and feedback we collect the better we are going into this. And I suppose a wine expert would tell me that the wine I like is not good either ;-) I can summarize their feedback and some helpful points. We don't have to do any changes we don't feel are right, but it could only help us to hear this. No particular order, I wrote down points, just writing them out detailed now. 1. It has to be reproducible. Chris R's is a great example, very simple logo. Both logo's with feathers would be a nightmare to reproduce. Suggested not to be part of the logo, but it can be part of a website design or splash screen, refresh/changes with versions. Reproduce in what sense? Do you mean print? Or photocopy? Is this a concern about how fine details may be lost in mechanical reproduction? -Rob 2. It does not need to be part of the icons. Bonus points if you can make them related though. Tips for icons - Can't go solely on colours for distinguishing modules. - Primary detail (Table, Sigma, Database, Text Lines, etc.) should be fairly large and pronounced as the main idea being communicated to the user visually in the icon. - Secondary detail - (brand) smaller, eg. single small bird in corner to tie it to the brand, again optional and remove for simplicity. - Do not user language characters, as it does not internationalize well, ie C for calc, M for math. Criticism seen in Adobe products (they get away with it). Sigma is fine, as its internationally known. 3. Font What's in is thin, sleek fonts. ie. my font choice looks like I'm stuck in the 90s, very techy looking. Who are we appealing to? End users, everyday folk, they like sleek. 4. Don't constrain ourselves to rounded square - We seem to be trying to fit a predefined container. Same with trying to integrate the colours. We're trying too hard. Keep it simple and original. Don't have the gulls hanging in mid air. Ground them Michael's #8 where the wings touch the circle is a good example of how to do that. They are part of it. I'm going to go home and make a new proposal that will highlight this feedback, soon hopefully. Just to show the ideas in an example. I will quantify some of these as possible requirements so that we have something to aim for. Samer On Feb 5, 2013 4:41 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/5/13 7:31 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: Picking a logo, hmmm. First part is dates. We could find our dates by working backwards: 1. When is the estimated release date of AOO4? we currently focus on April/May but no exact dates planned yet because we have still many things to do. I expect a more detailed schedule later this month. 2. When do we need to have a logo picked (consider time to integrate). I would say we should focus on end of February. Keep in mind that we need final design work after we picked a proposal, need icons, app logo, banner logo etc. 3. When do we need to start a final
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Samer Mansour samer...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know what exactly was meant by reproducible. It was points on a note pad I scribbled while they were talking... I think it helped me on a meta level for requirements. What is important in the logo to us? eg. I think we can agree the gulls are. eg. Must integrate the idea of the gulls, but not necessarily the existing gull shape(s) Maybe we come up with Primary Requirements and some Secondary Considerations we find important but not as important. I will try to head this and give it more attention. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Brand+Contest+RFP I will review and revamp that page. Then I'll post it here and dev for thoughts. Excellent. Agree, a wine expert is not going to tell me what wine I like. But they might be able to suggest a wine that's in right now and that a lot of people like. Expert's advice is often what is integrated into many commercial products. So it does hold some value and shouldn't be completely dismissed from consideration. I suggest we frame it as we're looking for a logo refresh, not a new logo. We have a lot of history and loyal users from OOo days and even AOO 3.4.1 that we want to reflect this as a refresh, we're improved. Not new. 4.0! Agree? I'd recommend we separate the process by which we pick a new logo (a RFP, a contest, voting, the technical requirements, etc.) from the question of logo refresh versus new logo. If we can get consensus on moving the process forward, then we'll be well on the road to answering the second question. But the 2nd question will spark enough debate that it may be better to discuss it in the context of specific examples, once we receive them. IMHO. -Rob Samer On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Samer Mansour samer...@gmail.com wrote: I just talked to a few full time designers at IBM I ran into while at lunch and showed them the proposals so far just as a what do you think? Just saying this now, my design got slammed, after they told me tips and feedback I was convinced it was bad, even though I thought very highly of it 10 mins prior. I think I want to pull it out at this point, but we'll leave it up as what not to do... I would recommend anyone here to reach out to designers they know and ask them for feedback on the proposal pages, ideas they have. The more knowledge and feedback we collect the better we are going into this. And I suppose a wine expert would tell me that the wine I like is not good either ;-) I can summarize their feedback and some helpful points. We don't have to do any changes we don't feel are right, but it could only help us to hear this. No particular order, I wrote down points, just writing them out detailed now. 1. It has to be reproducible. Chris R's is a great example, very simple logo. Both logo's with feathers would be a nightmare to reproduce. Suggested not to be part of the logo, but it can be part of a website design or splash screen, refresh/changes with versions. Reproduce in what sense? Do you mean print? Or photocopy? Is this a concern about how fine details may be lost in mechanical reproduction? -Rob 2. It does not need to be part of the icons. Bonus points if you can make them related though. Tips for icons - Can't go solely on colours for distinguishing modules. - Primary detail (Table, Sigma, Database, Text Lines, etc.) should be fairly large and pronounced as the main idea being communicated to the user visually in the icon. - Secondary detail - (brand) smaller, eg. single small bird in corner to tie it to the brand, again optional and remove for simplicity. - Do not user language characters, as it does not internationalize well, ie C for calc, M for math. Criticism seen in Adobe products (they get away with it). Sigma is fine, as its internationally known. 3. Font What's in is thin, sleek fonts. ie. my font choice looks like I'm stuck in the 90s, very techy looking. Who are we appealing to? End users, everyday folk, they like sleek. 4. Don't constrain ourselves to rounded square - We seem to be trying to fit a predefined container. Same with trying to integrate the colours. We're trying too hard. Keep it simple and original. Don't have the gulls hanging in mid air. Ground them Michael's #8 where the wings touch the circle is a good example of how to do that. They are part of it. I'm going to go home and make a new proposal that will highlight this feedback, soon hopefully. Just to show the ideas in an example. I will quantify some of these as possible requirements so that we have something to aim for. Samer On Feb 5, 2013 4:41 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/5/13 7:31 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: Picking a logo, hmmm.
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
Firstly an apology for my extended absence, however the contract that has been consuming my time finishes tomorrow so I shall be unemployed and able to devote some time to AOO once again. On Tuesday 05 Feb 2013 13:50:35 Samer Mansour wrote: I just talked to a few full time designers at IBM I ran into while at lunch and showed them the proposals so far just as a what do you think? Just saying this now, my design got slammed, after they told me tips and feedback I was convinced it was bad, even though I thought very highly of it 10 mins prior. I think I want to pull it out at this point, but we'll leave it up as what not to do... I love the IBM design team! :) Take it as a learning experience however. The one time I made a gentle criticism of someones art work on the old OOo art project list I got attacked and abused and the guy never talked to me again! :D So I tend to be a little deferential these days. They are so right however and I think I tried to cover those things in the original proposal mail. Take some time to read the original proposal for the RFP thread on Gmane here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.ooo.devel/27742 Branding is not just a logo there is a whole raft of considerations that need to go into a brand. This site explains the types of considerations, they are a commercial desgn house but they explain it quite well: http://www.redfiredesign.co.nz/difference-between-a-brand-and-a-logo/ We don't want just a logo, we want a brand. That brand has to have impact, be unique, and tell the world about AOO across multiple cultures and languages. Remember; OOo had around 120 Native language projects, it is a global brand and the brand has to reflect that. I would recommend anyone here to reach out to designers they know and ask them for feedback on the proposal pages, ideas they have. The more knowledge and feedback we collect the better we are going into this. I can summarize their feedback and some helpful points. We don't have to do any changes we don't feel are right, but it could only help us to hear this. No particular order, I wrote down points, just writing them out detailed now. 1. It has to be reproducible. Chris R's is a great example, very simple logo. Both logo's with feathers would be a nightmare to reproduce. Suggested not to be part of the logo, but it can be part of a website design or splash screen, refresh/changes with versions. 2. It does not need to be part of the icons. Bonus points if you can make them related though. Tips for icons - Can't go solely on colours for distinguishing modules. - Primary detail (Table, Sigma, Database, Text Lines, etc.) should be fairly large and pronounced as the main idea being communicated to the user visually in the icon. - Secondary detail - (brand) smaller, eg. single small bird in corner to tie it to the brand, again optional and remove for simplicity. - Do not user language characters, as it does not internationalize well, ie C for calc, M for math. Criticism seen in Adobe products (they get away with it). Sigma is fine, as its internationally known. 3. Font What's in is thin, sleek fonts. ie. my font choice looks like I'm stuck in the 90s, very techy looking. Who are we appealing to? End users, everyday folk, they like sleek. I like them better and better, End Users, that's who we're communicating with and should be the arbiters of our brand ... in fact they will be in the end. It's good to have input from people at the coalface who know what will push the right buttons with our endusers. Remember that the vast majority of our end users are non-techy 4. Don't constrain ourselves to rounded square - We seem to be trying to fit a predefined container. Same with trying to integrate the colours. We're trying too hard. Keep it simple and original. Don't have the gulls hanging in mid air. Ground them Michael's #8 where the wings touch the circle is a good example of how to do that. They are part of it. I'm going to go home and make a new proposal that will highlight this feedback, soon hopefully. Just to show the ideas in an example. I will quantify some of these as possible requirements so that we have something to aim for. Samer I look forward to seeing it, however it's just a logo, we need to build a brand which is a whole different ballgame. Cheers GL On Feb 5, 2013 4:41 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/5/13 7:31 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: Picking a logo, hmmm. First part is dates. We could find our dates by working backwards: 1. When is the estimated release date of AOO4? we currently focus on April/May but no exact dates planned yet because we have still many things to do. I expect a more detailed schedule later this month. 2. When do we need to have a logo picked (consider time to integrate). I would say
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
On 2/5/13 7:31 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: Picking a logo, hmmm. First part is dates. We could find our dates by working backwards: 1. When is the estimated release date of AOO4? we currently focus on April/May but no exact dates planned yet because we have still many things to do. I expect a more detailed schedule later this month. 2. When do we need to have a logo picked (consider time to integrate). I would say we should focus on end of February. Keep in mind that we need final design work after we picked a proposal, need icons, app logo, banner logo etc. 3. When do we need to start a final vote. aligned with 2. 4. If/When do we need a preliminary/elimination vote. not sure if this is needed at all 5. When is proposal deadline. Consider how much time for each of the above steps, advertise the schedule so that everyone voting knows when voting will occur and won't miss it. Second part is voting: How do we pick a logo by voting: - We could do rounds of elimination voting. Like American Idol, the weakest X number of logo gets eliminated. You can then vote again on the next round for a logo that survived if your first logo pick did not. - Who gets to vote? Help me on this one, I'm newb, is it all the mailing lists? Dev list, etc. one person a vote. good question, we can run of course several rounds but I wouldn't do too many. But I am flexible Third part is criteria: - What are the minimum criteria for the logo. - What are the constraints of the logo, if any, ie. technical. at least free and proper licensed font I personally would keep the blue as our preferred color to demonstrate continuity. We should keep in mind that a logo that can be used for different merchandising material has some advantages. From the sounds of it, we were not proposing finished work at this point in time. Still a lot of bouncing ideas, I do feel like our designs are beginning to conform to a higher than all of us design from our feedbacks. Maybe voting will be easy, who knows. I'm optimistic here. In general I would recommend to select one of the proposals until end of February and target the final bits until end of March. Integration should take not too long and we can test it afterwards in detail. Feedback is welcome, specially in areas like voting. We can start populating this, such as dates. thanks for driving this forward. A new fresh design with keeping some of the former elements or colors is a good move. We don't need a radical new design, a refresh is perfect form my point of view. Juergen Samer On Feb 4, 2013 6:11 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/1/13 6:03 PM, Kadal Amutham wrote: I have edited the wiki , giving numbers to all the logos. So all of us can have a look and vote as follows giving the ranking. Kinldy use alphabets for ranking meaning A as the best, B next one and Z the last. before we start voting on the logos I would suggest that we define some basic rules and a timeline (when to start, how long the vote is open etc.). We have some very interesting and good proposals but in the end only one can make it. We should also consider a complete brand, means a proposal that can be applied everywhere (logo, file icons and app icon, webpage, intro, about, ...) Just my opinion Juergen
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
I just talked to a few full time designers at IBM I ran into while at lunch and showed them the proposals so far just as a what do you think? Just saying this now, my design got slammed, after they told me tips and feedback I was convinced it was bad, even though I thought very highly of it 10 mins prior. I think I want to pull it out at this point, but we'll leave it up as what not to do... I would recommend anyone here to reach out to designers they know and ask them for feedback on the proposal pages, ideas they have. The more knowledge and feedback we collect the better we are going into this. I can summarize their feedback and some helpful points. We don't have to do any changes we don't feel are right, but it could only help us to hear this. No particular order, I wrote down points, just writing them out detailed now. 1. It has to be reproducible. Chris R's is a great example, very simple logo. Both logo's with feathers would be a nightmare to reproduce. Suggested not to be part of the logo, but it can be part of a website design or splash screen, refresh/changes with versions. 2. It does not need to be part of the icons. Bonus points if you can make them related though. Tips for icons - Can't go solely on colours for distinguishing modules. - Primary detail (Table, Sigma, Database, Text Lines, etc.) should be fairly large and pronounced as the main idea being communicated to the user visually in the icon. - Secondary detail - (brand) smaller, eg. single small bird in corner to tie it to the brand, again optional and remove for simplicity. - Do not user language characters, as it does not internationalize well, ie C for calc, M for math. Criticism seen in Adobe products (they get away with it). Sigma is fine, as its internationally known. 3. Font What's in is thin, sleek fonts. ie. my font choice looks like I'm stuck in the 90s, very techy looking. Who are we appealing to? End users, everyday folk, they like sleek. 4. Don't constrain ourselves to rounded square - We seem to be trying to fit a predefined container. Same with trying to integrate the colours. We're trying too hard. Keep it simple and original. Don't have the gulls hanging in mid air. Ground them Michael's #8 where the wings touch the circle is a good example of how to do that. They are part of it. I'm going to go home and make a new proposal that will highlight this feedback, soon hopefully. Just to show the ideas in an example. I will quantify some of these as possible requirements so that we have something to aim for. Samer On Feb 5, 2013 4:41 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/5/13 7:31 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: Picking a logo, hmmm. First part is dates. We could find our dates by working backwards: 1. When is the estimated release date of AOO4? we currently focus on April/May but no exact dates planned yet because we have still many things to do. I expect a more detailed schedule later this month. 2. When do we need to have a logo picked (consider time to integrate). I would say we should focus on end of February. Keep in mind that we need final design work after we picked a proposal, need icons, app logo, banner logo etc. 3. When do we need to start a final vote. aligned with 2. 4. If/When do we need a preliminary/elimination vote. not sure if this is needed at all 5. When is proposal deadline. Consider how much time for each of the above steps, advertise the schedule so that everyone voting knows when voting will occur and won't miss it. Second part is voting: How do we pick a logo by voting: - We could do rounds of elimination voting. Like American Idol, the weakest X number of logo gets eliminated. You can then vote again on the next round for a logo that survived if your first logo pick did not. - Who gets to vote? Help me on this one, I'm newb, is it all the mailing lists? Dev list, etc. one person a vote. good question, we can run of course several rounds but I wouldn't do too many. But I am flexible Third part is criteria: - What are the minimum criteria for the logo. - What are the constraints of the logo, if any, ie. technical. at least free and proper licensed font I personally would keep the blue as our preferred color to demonstrate continuity. We should keep in mind that a logo that can be used for different merchandising material has some advantages. From the sounds of it, we were not proposing finished work at this point in time. Still a lot of bouncing ideas, I do feel like our designs are beginning to conform to a higher than all of us design from our feedbacks. Maybe voting will be easy, who knows. I'm optimistic here. In general I would recommend to select one of the proposals until end of February and target the final bits until end of March. Integration should take not too long and we can test it afterwards in detail. Feedback is welcome, specially in areas like
Re: Structuring The New Logo Proposal
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:31 AM, Samer Mansour samer...@gmail.com wrote: Picking a logo, hmmm. First part is dates. We could find our dates by working backwards: 1. When is the estimated release date of AOO4? 2. When do we need to have a logo picked (consider time to integrate). 3. When do we need to start a final vote. 4. If/When do we need a preliminary/elimination vote. 5. When is proposal deadline. Consider how much time for each of the above steps, advertise the schedule so that everyone voting knows when voting will occur and won't miss it. Second part is voting: How do we pick a logo by voting: - We could do rounds of elimination voting. Like American Idol, the weakest X number of logo gets eliminated. You can then vote again on the next round for a logo that survived if your first logo pick did not. - Who gets to vote? Help me on this one, I'm newb, is it all the mailing lists? Dev list, etc. one person a vote. Previous discussions got bogged down on this point. Some said that we should not base it on popularity, but on objective standards and an expert evaluation of the logos. Others said we should vote. IMHO, we want to aim for two things: a logo that is objectively good, but also one that is accepted by the community. So personally I think some form of voting is necessary, though maybe with an opportunity for experts to weigh in and make their arguments. Also, there are ranked voting schemes we can use that would avoid the need for multiple rounds. For example, single transferable voting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote Third part is criteria: - What are the minimum criteria for the logo. - What are the constraints of the logo, if any, ie. technical. We started to put together a formal call for proposals last year: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Brand+Contest+RFP but it lost steam. One approach that I suggested as to keep it in two phases: Phase I: Only a basic logo needs to be provided, bitmap or vector format. We then vote to determine the top 3 choices. Phase II: The designers of the top 3 choices then refine their ideas and provide a more complete logo package, which might require vector source, splash screen, web logo, profile picture for Twitter, etc. We define a package of required variations that must be included. We then vote among the the three submissions. With this approach we make it easier for anyone to enter. They don't need to commit to a lot of design variations up front. They only do the extra stuff if they are in the top 3. Another point was what the winner(s) might get. We don't have the ability to offer cash prizes, unless a sponsor steps forward to offer one. But we could reward the winner(s) with some recognition, in a press release, blog interview, podcast, or something similar. Regards, -Rob From the sounds of it, we were not proposing finished work at this point in time. Still a lot of bouncing ideas, I do feel like our designs are beginning to conform to a higher than all of us design from our feedbacks. Maybe voting will be easy, who knows. I'm optimistic here. Feedback is welcome, specially in areas like voting. We can start populating this, such as dates. Samer On Feb 4, 2013 6:11 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/1/13 6:03 PM, Kadal Amutham wrote: I have edited the wiki , giving numbers to all the logos. So all of us can have a look and vote as follows giving the ranking. Kinldy use alphabets for ranking meaning A as the best, B next one and Z the last. before we start voting on the logos I would suggest that we define some basic rules and a timeline (when to start, how long the vote is open etc.). We have some very interesting and good proposals but in the end only one can make it. We should also consider a complete brand, means a proposal that can be applied everywhere (logo, file icons and app icon, webpage, intro, about, ...) Just my opinion Juergen
