Re: [Marxism] Query
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Unfortunately this isn't a burning issue yet, but still... On Wed, November 5, 2014 20:27, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: under communism we won't kill the ruling class but simply put it on an island (I remember it being Catalina) where they will live in luxury but unable to do any harm. But living in luxery DOES do harm! As long as there is a worldwide shortage of caviar and champagne, why should it go to the least deserving? How big is Catalina Island here? I don't know. How big are the Galapagos islands? Maybe if they were settled there, we could go back there in 1000 years and see if they've evolved - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Analysis from Autonomous Workers Union of Ukraine
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I received this interesting piece with only the explanation that it is by DENIS from the Autonomous Workers Union of Ukraine. It is based on a talk he gave at the Anarchist Book Fair in London on 18 October, thus before the recent election. - Jeff Ukrainian nationalism and fascism Contrary to the widespread concerns, nationalist sentiment has not become widespread in the society immediately after Maidan (although the nationalists, unlike leftists, had everything at their disposal to push their agenda at Maidan). But nationalism indeed became the dominating ideology in Ukrainian society after the Russian aggression started [with the annexation of Crimea in March] and escalated: it was a sad but inevitable consequence. In a more long-term retrospective, the agents most responsible for popularising radical nationalism in Ukraine over the last four years have been media and the intelligentsia generally. It is they who are responsible for the electoral success of Svoboda in 2012, when it received 10.4% of the vote. (Also, the then ruling Party of Regions was obviously trying to boost Svoboda as a harmless opposition). It is the media and the intelligentsia who now continue active support of the Right Sector (RS) and outright Nazis from the Social National Assembly (SNA), artificially inflating their approval ratings. The SNA has engulfed and digested all the active far right forces which had been previously accumulated under the umbrella of RS, or is in the process of doing so. They are gaining the political momentum which had been lost by RS after it had to transform itself into a regular civil political party in the spring. They are a great threat for the left and for minorities, but they are unable to gain power. (Far right violence against the left started growing in 2012 not in 2014 as is commonly believed but right now theres actually a certain pause.) We could compare the current situation with Italy, or other countries that have a tradition of an alliance between nazis and the police. One of the military units fighting on the pro-Ukrainian side, the Azov battalion, is indeed fully neo-nazi. Also, the far right are present to some extent in other volunteer battalions, but they dont play any significant role there. Most of the volunteers are regular people, only recently politicised and having rather abstract patriotic political views. Also, the regular army units fighting in the east of Ukraine are far more numerous than volunteers, who just have much better publicity. The military conflict and the truce In Kyiv the government exploits patriotic hysteria, and potentially could use fascists for reaching its political goals in the future. But the peoples republics in Donetsk and Luhansk have actual fascist movements in power with fascist ideology even though they use the image of Lenin and red flags. The unstable truce and special status of Donbass guaranteed by recent agreements allows those fascist political entities to gain strength and survive. Nevertheless, it is better than continuing the fighting without any hope for a quick end. This was the best of all the bad possible choices. It allows the far right on both sides political room, while the left agenda is being pushed even further away. Ukraines neo-liberal government The neo-liberal slogans and threats we have seen from Ukrainian government for the last six months dont differ much from the traditional rhetoric of any Ukrainian government for the last decade. The first few months of Yanukovychs rule, for example, were also full of such declarations, but then neoliberals in the ruling camp lost to the more populist conservative wing. The austerity measures already taken by the current government would have anyway inevitably been taken by Yanukovych after his victory at the presidential elections in 2015: this was a universally acknowledged forecast, long before the Maidan protests. So far we cannot say whether the current government will be more neo-liberal than its predecessors in practice. Of course they want to, but its not clear whether they will have objective possibilities for this. In November people will get utility bills with new, raised tariffs. They will also suffer from the further deepening of economic crisis, and the real incomes of the working class will fall further. But we shouldnt count on a social Maidan this winter. It is impossible because of the extremely high level of patriotic hysteria, on the one hand, and the extremely low level of development of social movements and political organisation of the working class, on the other hand. In the late spring we saw encouraging events
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The Bolshevik Who Thinks 'The Nation' Is Too Left Wing - The Daily Beast
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 13:12 26-10-14 -0500, Tristan Sloughter via Marxism wrote: Maybe I can't read... but where does he say The Nation is too left wing? No, he doesn't at all. He (correctly) decries the tendency of leftists and the Nation magazine to lend support to Putin, even though he is a reader of The Nation and often agrees with its articles. It was the editor of the Daily Beast who ignorantly labelled that position as left wing. And of course Louis is also right by saying that he's not quite a bolshevik either (nor does he claim to be). But I guess you can give him credit as an ex-CP'er who still has some left wing views and doesn't translate those into supporting Russian nationalism. Being a minority of one in the Duma, I imagine you can probably count his chance of turning anything around in Russia (if he can even get back there) as just about zero. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Soros on Ukraine and confronting Russia militarily
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Fri, October 24, 2014 16:16, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: Billionaire investor George Soros is agitating for a new Cold War against Russia. I certainly have nothing nice to say about George Soros. However to change the subject slightly, the fact that he feels a need to engage in this sort of agitation is evidence that the mainstream EU powers are NOT engaging in such a new cold war against Russia. You'll notice that he doesn't (and can't!) explicitly point to any significant European parties or movements espousing this view. He speaks as a maverick, not as a spokesperson for a political wing inside the EU. This further shows that there is no intention of a new cold war coming from inside the EU, but at most a defensive reaction felt more by some of Eastern European states that Russia might consider to be in its sphere of influence. This belies the left-right anti-imperialist theory of a coming World War III. Likewise all the talk from those quarters about the rabid NATO expansionism inspiring the Maidan protests and change of government in the Ukraine has proven unfounded. Even after voluminous proof of Russian state involvement in the separationist movement in Eastern Ukraine (and what they openly did in the Crimea), which really gave NATO every excuse to act, they declined to offer military support to the Ukraine. When the Ukrainian president came to Washington seeking military aid he received moral support and token non-lethal aid. The theory of NATO expansionism would have predicted otherwise in both cases. The fact is that NATO and the EU countries especially are much more interested in stability (including that of Russian oil/gas supplies) than in any expansionism or even protection of non-member states bordering the EU such as the Ukraine. Maybe, in fact probably, the Western imperialists would happily expand Eastwards were Russia not there. But that isn't what's happening, which is why Soros needed to express his views this way rather than cheering on the NATO armies of the East. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ebola and the Western powers
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 15:59 22-10-14 +1300, Philip Ferguson via Marxism wrote: While it's horrible that anyone is dying form Ebola, it's a bit strange that western media are so focused on it, While all of us like to find politically-motivated imbalances in the media or government propaganda, I could not disagree more with the above statement, and the rest of the article that attempts to support that thesis. If I needed to criticize the media and response of the international community, it would have to be that it had taken much too long for them to come to terms with the magnitude of the crisis. Arguably the Western media's response was accelerated by a handful of cases in America and Europe, but it was still too little too late. The bar graph in the article showing the relative death toll between ebola and other diseases in Africa is extremely misleading for reasons I will lay out. If it were the result of an intentional campaign to reduce resources addressing the epidemic then I would even call it criminal. It would be like Hitler displaying a graph comparing the total number of deaths in the world in 1944 with the relatively small number of Jews who died in concentration camps. 1) First, like any such comparison, it compares a large number of deaths with a much larger numbers while avoiding the main conclusion: that almost all of the deaths from HIV, malaria, hunger, TB, and syphilis are avoidable and shouldn't be offered as an excuse for one single avoidable death. For instance, I protested the execution of Ken Saro-Wiwa without comparing that death toll (9) with the other death tolls in Nigeria such as presented in this graph, for which I don't apologize. 2) The graph is somewhat misleading (and this relates to point (3)) because it accumulates all the deaths over the last 7 months whereas half of the ebola deaths have been in the last month, so a fair graph showing the numbers over the last month would show only about 1/4 the disparity displayed. 3) But most of all, the graph and entire article seems impervious to the fact of exponential growth of ebola (whereas the other death rates displayed are more or less stable). The incidence and death rate of ebola is doubling every month! That means that the same graph plotted next summer would show ebola exceeding all the other deaths in Africa. But that's just for starters. At the current rate of increase, in just about two years the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE would be DEAD. Does that concern anyone? Anyone? For reference, here are graphs showing that exponential growth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_epidemic_in_West_Africa#Timeline_of_cases_and_deaths http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/10/how-many-ebola-cases-are-there-really This isn't my field, but I'm pretty sure that there has never in recorded history been a widespread epidemic with any similar rate of exponential growth. Never had the human race only two years left if current rates of infection continued. And although the spread of ebola (like any disease) can in principle be turned around (so that the exponential growth becomes exponential decay), this hasn't yet happened in countries where it became widespread EVEN THOUGH people are aware of the dangers and reducing their exposure. Unlike HIV or TB, normal infection control measures are insufficient, as the continued exponential growth rate indicates. With many hundreds of specialized medical workers in space suits (some of whom still get infected), the care provided is wholly insufficient. With the growth rate of the epidemic, the number of such medical workers would have to more than double every month in order ever come to grips with the problem. Otherwise the only possible response to saving the human race would be the one you've probably seen in some sci-fi horror movies, where the army is called out (wearing space suits) to shoot all diseased people from a safe distance, or just nuke affected areas. I'd prefer to see an increase in the level of care givers well in excess of doubling every month, as well as public health measures to reduce transmission. Beyond the current measures I would have to say, since these have been inadequate except in situations where there were only a handful of cases. I'm sorry to have written an entire post where I didn't address the class struggle. It's just that if the ebola epidemic isn't turned around (or at least slowed) in the next two years, then there won't be a class struggle :-( - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at:
Re: [Marxism] Ebola and the Western powers
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 16:56 22-10-14 +0200, =?iso-8859-15?Q?L=FCko_Willms?= via Marxism wrote: What about the pestilence plague in the Middle Ages? This did exterminate large parts of the population. Well yes, that is about the closest case one could cite. Though I don't think its rate of exponential growth could have been as high as doubling every month since each of those outbreaks continued over a few years and wouldn't have been recognized as epidemics in their earlier stages. And I believe they were exacerbated in the medieval cities due to rats, poor sanitation, and overcrowding, while the relative infrequency of international travel meant that it didn't break out in all areas simultaneously like we see now. In any case, if we are now comparing the ebola epidemic to the black plague, then I have made my original point in regards to the original post whining about the media overplaying the epidemic's danger. Even the exponential spread of infections -- one person gets infected, and infects two others, etc -- can't continue just by the mathematical formula, since the curve will go down, if not enough people are around to be infected. Yes I thought about that when I was writing it but didn't feel a need to complicate the formula. I just calculated when the current rate of growth would equal 7 billion, but didn't literally mean that it would be the end of human life on earth. The decrease in the infection rate due to a decreasing human population, which Luko correctly mentions, shouldn't be of much consolation since it only becomes a significant factor after a large part of the population has perished! So instead of saying that all of the human race would be killed after 24 months, I could have more accurately said that only 1/4 of the human race would be killed after 22 months. And in any case I don't literally believe that either because rates of exponential growth will change due to other factors. And what's more, there is at least a 50% survival rate given good care (although it isn't clear that most people would get good care after there were billions of cases) so not all of humanity would perish but only half. Is that disclaimer reassuring to anyone?? And effective isolation of infected pations will slow down the spread of the infections (I myself have been in my childhood in an isolation station for having an infectious disease). And my point is that they are trying to do that in the affected countries, and the epidemic is STILL doubling every month. So this is obviously an extremely contagious virus and after it doubles another 5 or 10 times, there aren't possibly going to be enough medical personnel with space suits to attend to the victims, let alone insure to public health and the continuation of the economy and food supply. The real scandal, in my view, is that the total commercialisation of health care and the parmaceutic industry has prevented an early development of a cure and an immunisation, because that seemed not to be profitable Well that is absolutely right, and was admitted an hour ago on the BBC by a spokesman from Glaxo-Smith-Klein. He said that they had consulted with the WHO earlier this year, but at that point it wasn't clear that there would be a serious epidemic so they didn't feel working on a vaccine or cure was needed. He only left out the word profitable, but unmistakably that is what he was talking about. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Escape from Microsoft Word by Edward Mendelson | NYRblog | The New York Review of Books
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 16:15 21-10-14 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/oct/21/escape-microsoft-word/ Well I'd have so many things to say about Microsoft Word (and the .doc format that they have forced on most of the world) that I realized this would be a long, angry message were I to get started. So I'll just mention possibly the most annoying component of Microsoft Word/Office, the fuckin' PAPERCLIP: http://gallery.future-i.com/comedy/pic:damnpaperclip/full/assistant.gif http://www.rdex.net/anim_gifs/gifs/assistant.gif http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100312214553/uncyclopedia/images/1/19/Clippy_evil.png _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. !!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!! == At 10:50 17-10-14 -0400, Les Schaffer via Marxism wrote: You should not post to marxmail using your real name if you are concerned Alright, but why don't you just change the header message to simply say that, rather than jumping to the (non-) possibility of correcting such an error after it's too late? As a moderator you are instead thinking about the aspect of the problem which you (formerly) could control. And even then one should know that anything that ever appears on the public web will exist in perpetuity, even if removed (for instance, as archived on the Way Back Machine and elsewhere). Keep that annoying message at the top to the point and minimally obtrusive (or my preference: put it at the bottom!). - Jeff about various people and organizations seeking and finding such posts on the web. Our email list is archived at the U of Utah, GMANE, mail-archive.com, and probably several others i cannot think of at the moment. Because our host server at U of Utah is no longer under our direct control, we have no easy way to remove posts that appear there. So to convince people that they should sub under a fake name if they want to avoid name == marxism linkage, we have added a warning to our top header. enjoy Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. !!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!! == At 13:18 17-10-14 -0400, Les Schaffer via Marxism wrote: ... we just want people to stop asking us to pull there posts because of the issue. Oh, is that your only motivation? Geez, how many of these requests do you get every day? I guess you could send them all a form letter or something but if you have a snappy way to say it, by all means pitch it Alright: == 1) When replying to a message always clip extraneous text 2) Your name and email address will appear on the web. Consider using an alias. == - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. !!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!! == Again, THAT ^ versus: 1) When replying to a message always clip extraneous text 2) Your name and email address will appear on the web. Consider using an alias. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. !!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!! == At 13:59 17-10-14 -0400, you wrote: i like the asterisks... trying to decide if i should go with some of Joseph's generality about posting and archiving How about the message at the bottom point to a page called List rules and cautions. In fact that could replace Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu which is a rather useless instruction (most people just hit Reply) and could be included in the page pointed to. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. !!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!! == At 14:17 17-10-14 -0400, Les Schaffer via Marxism wrote: On 10/17/2014 02:10 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote: How about the message at the bottom point to a page called List rules and cautions. yep, thought of that too. up top is more in your face... But my point was to include the two-line less obtrusive version of the caution at the top (if you think that's necessary, in order to be in your face), but write up a more complete caution, along with other list rules and advice that you can't possibly include in each email, and post that on a webpage. And then at the bottom it would say: ___ List rules and information: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/marxism/Rules.html Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/ instead of: Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderators' note: posting under your real name
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. !!! NOTE: this mail list is publicly archived at the U of Utah. Posts submitted under your real name and archived there can NOT be deleted from the server.!!! == One more thought: The caution about not using your real name if you don't want it on the web, doesn't really need to be told to each person each time they're posting (let alone each time they're just reading the messages!). And after they've ignored it once, then it's already sort of too late. Now, I'm pretty sure that with this list, like most lists, the very first time a new subscriber posts, that post is automatically moderated. That helps to prevent a spammer from easily getting on the list and spamming right away. So do it like this: when you get that first post from a new subscriber, routinely hold it back and send them an email pointing out these issues (and other list rules). Then they can still reconsider before posting it again for real. How about that? - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Turkish anarchists in defense of Kobane
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The message below is from an anarchist list and is obviously copied from a webpage, but I couldn't (easily) locate that page so I'm just forwarding the text. I don't know if their direct support in Kobane is very substantial or more token, but in either case it is an admirable example of solidarity and internationalism, especially coming from within the country most infamous for its oppression of the Kurdish minority and military conflict in Kurdistan. To me at least, one interesting point discussed is under Prison conversion below, where it mentions that Ocalan has in recent years become a convert to the ideas of Murray Bookchin, which is quite a shift from the original PKK's left-Stalinist ideology. This (as implied below) has everything to do with the alliance between his supporters (YPG) and Turkish (and Syrian?) anarchists. Beginning with the Spanish civil war, Stalinist groups generally treat anarchists as they would Trotskyists or any other independent left current having its own program and world view, so the PKK's apparent evolution has made possible the coming together of left currents in defense of the ISIS onslaught against the Kurds. It remains unfortunate that the FSA and other Syrian revolutionary currents are primarily nationalist in outlook and therefore cannot think in terms of Kurdish self-determination as that would threaten the current borders of Syria. I take hope, as Michael Karadjis has just posted, that facts on the ground will continue to bring together these forces in joint action and promote better understanding, and eventually a common front against Assad. - Jeff _ Turkish anarchists, who made headlines around the world during the battle for Taksim Square, have decamped to the besieged Kurdish town of Kobani to support the fight against the Islamic State. While Turkish security forces look on from across the border as the Islamic State continues its onslaught against Kobani, a group of Turkish activists have crossed the border to support the Kurds. They call themselves Devrimci Anarsist Faaliyet (Revolutionary Anarchist Action), and their members were on the barricades last year when major protests erupted around Taksim Square and Gezi park in Istanbul. Speaking to Channel 4 News, the group reveals it has visited Kobani on three occasions, bypassing Turkish border guards and helping Kurdish refugees to escape into Turkey. We were part of the resistance that started in Taksim and Gezi park. Turkish anarchist spokesperson The most important task was to help civilians from Kobani to pass through the border. After that we supported immigrants for transportation, setting up tents, organising the distribution of materials sent in solidarity, one group member explained. We were part of the resistance that started in Taksim Gezi park. We were part of the resistance against police violence, against state terrorism and in the direct democracy experience afterwards. After Taksim Square was occupied, we have actively participated in resistance along the barricades and behind the barricades. However we have to make this clear: we are not only in the streets when the turmoil in society is high. Read more: Kurdish spring: what are the PKK fighting for? Image credit DAF Prison conversion The links between Kurdish groups and anarchists were born from the proscribed PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) leader Abdullah Ocalan's prison conversion to the writings of Murray Bookchin, a New York anarchist academic. In Kobani the PYD (Democratic Union Party) and its armed wing, the YPG, are followers of Ocalan, and have attempted to implement an autonomous form of Kurdish direct democracy. Turkish radicals are hoping to learn from this experience. YPG is organising the fight at the highest level against Isis as a self-defence force. So we are trying to support in every way possible, the anarchist explained. Protest calls The border near Kobani has seen violent scenes as Turkish forces attempt to control the flow of refugees both into Turkey and back to Syria. In recent days the DAF have been supporting calls for people to come onto the streets to protest against the Turkish government's stance on Syria. Police have used tear gas and water cannon this week as unrest spread to six Turkish cities over Turkey's lack of action against IS. One 25-year-old protester was killed in the eastern province of Mus and there were other deaths reported in Diyarbakir, Turkey's largest Kurdish city.  Image credit DAF Peace process threatened The activists worry that the government is not taking the ongoing and currently quite delicate peace process with the PKK
Re: [Marxism] Truth (aka gaffe) from Joe Biden
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Tue, October 7, 2014 17:01, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: We have seen here repeated claims that the rrrevolutionaries in Syria never received any significant outside assistance. No that hasn't been claimed, which is why Biden's remarks are not breaking news (to anyone but Shane). What has been claimed is that few or no actual WEAPONS have been sent to them by the US despite earlier suggestions that had the Syrian National Council, for instance, wasting their time (and reputation) in pursuit of what they had been been led to expect. The big chance that the FSA had to receive US weapons was last year when it would have been under the condition of fighting al-Nusra on behalf of the US which they rightfully refused. Nor is it news that Turkey and several Arab states and private doners have given relatively large amounts of aid. That aid went largely not to the secular forces but moderate Islamic currents (but ones very much carrying out the revolution, unlike ISIS), which further tilted the balance in that direction and away from forces that might be viewed as left or democratic. So that has made it more difficult to convince leftists and liberals in the West to support their revolution but hasn't made the revolution any less valid. Most all of those forces are still committed to democratic principles and pluralism. But like in Libya, where the international left overwhelmingly abandoned the revolution at the first sight of a NATO bomber, the left in Syria will have suffered from our neglect, and I am quite sure will not be the leading party in the first free election to take place in Syria. - Jeff P.S. I recommend reading Why Does the Free Syrian Army Hate Us? just posted on this list by Michael Karadjis. So when someone with total access to the truth slips up and blurts it out, we might as well take notice: The latest furor started after he spoke at Harvard Universitys John F. Kennedy School of Government last Thursday. Mr. Biden said American allies including Turkey, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates had extended unconditional financial and logistical support to Sunni fighters trying to oust the Syrian government of President Bashar al- Assad. 'Our allies poured hundreds of millions of dollars and tens of thousands of tons of weapons into anyone who would fight against al- Assad,' he said, including jihadists planning to join the Nusra Front and Al Qaeda. Mr. Biden also confided that Turkeys President Erdogan told me he is an old friend You were right. We let too many people through.' (NYT, 7/10) Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Turkish anarchists and other leftists fighting ISIS
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Tue, October 7, 2014 22:50, Joseph Catron via Marxism wrote: Following recent discussion of YPG, it's interesting that anarchists and other leftists from Turkey are supporting it by sending fighters to Kobane Yes, it's encouraging to see that at least in that region, leftists are actually engaging in struggle as demanded by the dire situation rather than washing their hands of any impure involvement in a messy 4-way war. From an anarchist list I was directed to this inspiring page over the Kurdish women fighters of the YPJ (women's division of the YPG, loosely allied with the PKK): http://karakok.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/these-remarkable-women-are-fighting-isis-its-time-you-know-who-they-are/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Libeling a Democracy Movement » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mon, October 6, 2014 17:07, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: Dave Lindorff takes on the Global Research spy-versus-spy bullshit about the NED. Too bad he never saw fit to understand Syria and Ukraine in the same terms. Apparently he noticed that contradiction and changed the name of his article! So you need to use this URL instead: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/06/whats-driving-the-hong-kong-protests/ Or you can also go to the original (wrong) URL and read Mike Whitney's latest wisdom http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/06/libeling-a-democracy-movement/ - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: British hostage Alan Henning aimed to helpSyrians
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 15:02 05-10-14 +, Charles Faulkner via Marxism wrote: As for the Khmer Rouge, while I don't defend them, I do think they got a bad rap. i can't join you here clay. Well me neither. But more to the point, I don't think that in all of human history, any person or group accused of mass murder or human rights violations has received a bad rap, unless said actions never really occurred or did not take place through their voluntary actions. Period. Lou wrote The fucking ISIS is 10 times worse than the Khmer Rouge for effect, or to indicate the extent of his disgust (which I share). It was certainly NOT the result of a calculation where two numbers were divided to obtain a ratio of 10:1, and indeed there is no such calculation possible. Otherwise I could probably take over Mark Regev's job and point out that the number of Palestinians killed by Israel is much less than 1% of the Jews killed in the holocaust. What political message does one take away from that very valid calculation? And what point is there in such comparisons being debated among those of us who fight against all these atrocities? If someone on this list wants to actually defend any of these murderers, then we have the basis for a debate. Otherwise I am content to accept that Lou feels ten times more disgust at some recent events compared to distant memories from 40 years ago, and most of us do as well because of the way the human mind works. Any further attempt to objectively quantify the magnitude of suffering or injustice throughout history is hogwash. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: British hostage Alan Henning aimed to help Syrians
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 08:28 04-10-14 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: The fucking ISIS is 10 times worse than the Khmer Rouge. They just beheaded a British cab driver named Alan Henning who had joined a caravan delivering medicine No shit! Not just him, but I believe every high-profile beheading video released by ISIS or their forerunners (which mainstream al-Q'aida, to their credit, never endorsed) has been of a totally innocent civilian involved in reporting from or providing aid in areas of suffering. Absolutely no attempt to punish the guilty (even if beheading were an acceptable punishment for war criminals), but designed to shock and polarize -- successfully! -- amounting to nothing less than terrorism, a term I very much avoid using. Now, I understand all the reasons to oppose or question the motivations of the U.S. bombing campaign. But when I hear something like Obama never even tried to negotiate with ISIS and see what their legitimate grievances are, I just shake my head in dismay. Seldom would I defend Obama et. al. against unfair criticism but that would have to be one. If anyone were to have given Obama a credible excuse to exercise military power, ISIS has succeeded. In the case of the second American recently beheaded, Steven Sotloff, even I had thought that ISIS would show some moderation after the conciliatory, almost grovelling message by his mother, pointing out her son's pursuit in reporting on the suffering of Muslims: her pleas were totally ignored. I'm sure that one could find similar documentation for each of these beheading victims, but here is the last recorded interview of James Foley, beheaded by ISIS in August after having been captured (by whom isn't clear) in 2012. A previous post on this list indirectly pointed to this 4 minute video which is especially worth watching by anyone who might be imagining that there could have been a reasonable justification for his capture, let alone beheading. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=KOckTZHiK20 And if all that isn't enough, you might have noticed a few links (depending on YouTube's random choices) to related videos denouncing the beheading video as a fake! For the conspiratorial left/right, being anti-war means defying reason to whatever extent necessary. Note that they don't try to defend ISIS which they also claim was created by the US (etc. etc.) but rather assert that the whole scenario has been staged-managed (just like the collapse of the World Trade Center!). If you search you can find dozens (actually it says about 11,400 results) conspiracist claims which conveniently deny ISIS's crime: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=James+Foley+fake - Jeff http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c5e4b7cd3b6f402fbf0e96afdf54d8a1/british-hostage-alan-henning-aimed-help-syrians Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Fri, September 26, 2014 19:45, Joseph Catron via Marxism wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:41 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Well, according to Joseph Catron, Robert Fisk, Tariq Ali, Phyllis Bennis, Yoshie Furuhashi, Press TV, RT.com, WSWS.org, the PSL, the WWP, Counterfire, Global Research and Moon of Alabama biting a dead man's heart is worse than napalming schoolchildren. Lou, you really shouldn't keep lying and falsely attributing statements to others. Well you're right, that Louis often speaks sharply for effect without spelling out the point in a way that's literally accurate in detail. So for those of you who are unable to digest his sort of exposition, let me translate the above quote: Judging only by the emphasis given in their reporting of various atrocities, one would conclude that Joseph Catron, Robert Fisk, Tariq Ali, Phyllis Bennis, Yoshie Furuhashi, Press TV, RT.com, WSWS.org, the PSL, the WWP, Counterfire, Global Research and Moon of Alabama consider biting a dead man's heart to be worse than napalming schoolchildren. Get it? - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] TODAY: Tell Mahmoud Abbas, Stop Collaborating with Israeli War Crimes! 5:15 Cooper Union, NYC
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 12:20 22-09-14 -0400, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: https://www.facebook.com/events/348102545364426/ You sent this call 3 times and I'm left a bit bewildered. Of course Israel (or actually, specific Israelis) should be prosecuted by the ICC for war crimes, or Israel taken to the ICJ as I understand is made possible by the (partial) recognition of Palestine by the U.N. which the PA could undertake. But the above link shows a demo with signs saying Dissolve the Palestinian Authority which is a strange demand if there isn't something to replace it with. Of course politically the PA has been an instrument of Fateh and (mis-)led by Abbas, but there was supposed to be a reconciliation with Hamas, and moreover according to its own procedures, his term of presidency ended a long time ago and there should be new elections (Hamas came out ahead in the last election, but was prevented from executing its mandate). So Abbas should be replaced BY THE PALESTINIANS (it's not clear that this event is even led by Palestinians, let alone ones with popular representation among the Palestinian nation). But above all, I cannot see just demanding Dissolve the Palestinian Authority. I wouldn't shout out such a demand in relation to ANY government of an oppressed people except in the context of its realistic replacement by a progressive alternative. And the demand should come FROM those people. I share many/most Palestinians frustration with the collaborationist PA, but the approach of this action in New York is quite questionable. - Jeff TELL PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT MAHMOUD ABBAS: STOP COLLABORATING WITH ISRAELI WAR CRIMES! SEND ISRAEL TO THE ICC! While Israel bombs hospitals and schools in Gaza with your tax dollars, Palestinian leaders fail to hold them accountable and in fact have been negotiating away Palestinian rights. Join us on Monday, September 22nd at 5:15PM to tell Mahmoud Abbas, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Send Israel's war criminal leadership to the International Criminal Court! *We will be meeting at Great Hall at COOPER UNION, 7th ST BETWEEN 3rd 4th AVE, AT 5:15PM, before Abbas' speech.* Bring signs, flags, and friends! To endorse this event, contact stopcollaborat...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] One in six French people say they support ISIS
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well the original poll was taken a month and a half ago, and the raw data is reported here: http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/pdf/New-EU-Comb.pdf But I agree with Clay, that these numbers are beyond belief. I suspect the results may have been contaminated by people who didn't even know what they were being questioned about and were too ashamed to admit that (as 20-30% did admit, in the bottom row) and just made a random guess. I think a proper poll should have first ascertained whether a respondent follows news from the Middle East (though of course the form of that determination would likewise bias any poll which restricted the sample base). But if anything like that proportion of people in any European country (or elsewhere) really supported ISIS, then I have totally misread the political landscape and would be stunned. - Jeff At 10:58 01-09-14 -0500, you wrote: === I tend not to trust polls because they can so easily be skewed. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Aug. 19: Associated Press: New Report Warns of Anti Aircraft Weaspons in Syria
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Tue, August 19, 2014 15:40, DW via Marxism wrote: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SYRIA_AIRCRAFT_THREATS?SITE=APSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT This information is a small subset of a rather detailed report from the Small Arms Survey (geez, I never would have considered anti-aircraft missiles as small arms!) I found after a few clicks at: http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/G-Issue-briefs/SAS-IB9%20-MANPADS-and-Syria.pdf It admits that it cannot quantify the number of MANPADS in Syrian revolutionary hands, but implies that it appears rather significant except that the majority of the ones seized from the government are duds. It does list at least 5 different models which have been confirmed to be among those in rebel hands. Not surprising to anyone on this list, it points out: Contrary to repeated claims by the media and the Russian government, there is no evidence that armed groups in Syria have acquired USdesigned FIM-92 Stinger MANPADS. The reports appeared regularly in media articles in 2012, culminating in claims by a high-ranking Russian official that Syrian armed groups had acquired several dozen Stinger missiles (AFP, 2012; RIA Novosti, 2012a; MFA, 2012).5 An analysis of videos and photographs from Syria yielded no evidence of acquisition or use of Stinger MANPADS by armed groups. The Russian government has not released photographs or other hard evidence to support their claims, and the only photo accompanying media reports of Stingers in Syria is of another type of missile misidentified as a Stinger (Hughes, 2012).7 But it does discuss the possible actors in external deliveries of MANPADS (such as Qatar) and the likelihood of ones which had been liberated in Libya which is not surprising. Regardless of Syria, I was a bit shocked to learn that altogether a million MANPADS have been produced, each capable of bringing down a passenger airplane. If ISIS (along with their international network) were to get a hold of a number of these, it would appear that they could practically bring civilian air travel to a halt! - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Islamic State and ground-to-air missiles
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I won't try to figure out who said what when and what they actually meant. But maybe we can agree on the facts of the matter (or if not, seek further evidence for discussion). There is no doubt that some Syrian revolutionaries have had MANPADS and used them, but it also appears clear that these must have been so few in numbers that the Syrian pilots dropping barrel bombs had little reason to be concerned. It would have been different if even a small portion of such weapons missing in Libya had made their way to the Syrians, and there were enough Libyans who would have been eager to supply them. So the conclusion is that the US not only didn't act to supply MANPADS to the Syrians, but (as has been documented) actively prevented such shipments, for the very reasons they openly offer (fear of them landing in the hands of al-Q'aida). And furthermore, not only were there were so few but they were delivered to groups other than ISIS, which is why ISIS apparently never possessed any, and which therefore is why we haven't seen them used in Iraq. I believe that was the point Louis was making. - Jeff At 16:10 17-08-14 -0700, DW via Marxism wrote: Louis: ...isn't it odd that not a single one of these weapons have been used against jets and helicopters in Iraq? Then you wrote: Except that this is not what I said. I said that there is no evidence that a rat line existed. Then I wrote these weapons being...MANPADS. I showed you are wrong and factually inaccurate about what you in fact wrote. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Islamic State and ground-to-air missiles
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 10:11 18-08-14 +1000, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: agree none went to ISIS, but even though Jeff righty says the US actively prevented any Manpads getting in, he then seems to suggest that some may have let through to the FSA - if so, I disagree with the implication that any at all were. No, you're probably right. I didn't want to rule it out because there are accounts of them having been used. But I guess they could all have been raided from the regime, as Michael says. I also don't buy that the US aim in preventing Manpads and other advanced weapons getting in was to ensure none got to al-Qaida. I believe the aim was to ensure that none got to al-Qaida, none got to any Islamists, no matter how moderate, and none got to secular FSA Well I think that describes Obama, among many others. But given all the (changing) shades of opinion among US politicians, I think the uniting concern was preventing proliferation of weapons that could be used for terrorism. Because they agreed on that bottom line, doesn't mean that there weren't other reasons that they denied aid to the FSA (which obviously wouldn't have used them for terrorism nor supplied them to ISIS). - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] UK activists shut down Israeli arms factory
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == .A group of activists from the London Palestine Action network have today (5/8/14) chained the doors shut of an Israeli weapons factory based near Birmingham in the UK and are now occupying the roof. As part of the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement (BDS) and in response to calls for action from Palestinian movements, we are demanding the permanent closure of the factory and an end to all forms of military trade and cooperation with Israel. http://londonpalestineaction.tumblr.com/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Stockman On Dominoes , WMDs And Putins Aggression: Imperial Washingt on Is Intoxicated By Another Big Lie
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Oh how extremely interesting: Shane has identified another businessman/politician on the right fringe of establishment politics who comes to the defense of Putin against the confused liberal Western capitalists. Louis (and others) have pointed to numerous accounts of classical fascist groups enamoured with Putin's undemocratic character and happy to parrot his denunciation of Western imperialism. But this guy is more in the form of Paul Craig Roberts whose views also get propagated among the left, surely by those who, like Shane, marvel at how an establishment conservative has reached supposedly left positions. You'd think that when leftists keep finding such figures on the right echoing their own talking points, that they would take a step back and try to figure out whether the far right really stands far to the 'left' as Shane innocently puts it, or whether there might be something wrong with their own positions. - Jeff On Wed, July 30, 2014 18:32, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: Stockman's is a variety of conservatism that, despite its ideological economic eccentricities, stands far to the left (ie., is clearly right) as against every variety of Liberalism or Social Democracy. http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/on-dominoes-wmds-and-putins-aggression-imperial-washington-is-intoxicated-in-another-big-lie/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] NATO over Libya vs. IDF over Gaza
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 21:48 24-07-14 -0400, Marv Gandall via Marxism wrote: The NATO countries, of course, do not presently have the power to bring the Russian leaders to trial. Instead, the US and its allies are trying to bring pressure to bear through their control of the global financial system. The EU today adopted tougher sanctions in line with those adopted earlier by the Obama administration as part of a staged program designed to progressively squeeze the Russian financial system and cripple the economy. Do you support these efforts? I think that is a really unfair question, because either answer is wrong. When there is a dispute between capitalists, with no overriding principle involved, then if you support one side you are supporting one group of capitalists. Forcing someone to support one or the other is a trap and a diversion from any valid issues which might be tangentially involved. Because one country (or usually both countries) in a dispute deserves to be punished, doesn't mean you need to endorse some particular sort of action. And of course even our own boycott actions are just tactical, such the BDS campaign against Israel. We don't have to answer every question about Why pick on Israel when this other country is doing something awful too? Likewise with economic sanctions which are just a tactic and don't have to be either supported or opposed in every case. But what does become an issue is when they go out of their way NOT to implement sanctions, such as when Reagan came to the aid of South African apartheid by saying that sanctions wouldn't help etc. It's clear why he was against sanctions, and that we surely denounce. But you can't demand from me a list of countries that do or don't deserve sanctions. And although Russia's interference in Ukraine is contrary to the interests and rights of Ukranians, no one has to decide whether sanctions are right or wrong, whatever those terms might mean. The main thing I notice about sanctions against Russia, considering all that has transpired, is that the EU countries in particular are rather reluctant to implement very serious sanctions, because their economic interests (particularly dependence on Russian gas/oil) are at odds with their geopolitical concerns (losing influence in East Europe). That is a more pertinent discussion than whether sanctions will do more harm than good, or which capitalist has the right or moral authority to implement punishments against a different capitalist country. - Jeff Besides military assistance to its proxies, I assume doing the right thing in Clays view also includes economic sanctions, US imperialisms weapon of choice for exercising control. I asked Clay about this a couple of days ago - no response as yet - and Louis, Andy, and others who broadly agree with Clays characterization of the civil war within Ukraine as Russian aggression might also want to have a stab at it: Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Better apology needed.....
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Wed, July 23, 2014 17:17, DW via Marxism wrote: Apology to Clay for calling him a state dept socialist. This was out of line here That's a good start and it not accurate (that positions are congruent with this or that Imperialist position doesn't make one a state dept socialist) No it wouldn't, but you are still careless in calling his words congruent with [an] Imperialist position. Saying which missile hit which plane is not a position, it is just an assessment of fact. If you count every simple fact (say, starting with the multiplication table) then I guess you could say that I agree with over 99% of imperialist positions. And finally: On Wed, July 23, 2014 17:11, DW via Marxism wrote: Clay, who has become the point man for the Russia is Evil, Ukraine Good crowd of state dept type socialists here The apology to Clay was insufficient because an entire crowd was labelled state dept type socialists. That might well include me and the majority of this list. And furthermore, who among us exactly says Russia is Evil, Ukraine Good? AFAIK everyone on this list agrees that Ukraine is a capitalist country and people don't come to this list if they think capitalist countries are good. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 03:28 20-07-14 +1000, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: So of course we can, to some extent, blame those who shot down the plane in as much as they were obviously not very careful Well it's more like they didn't even know the meaning of careful in this context. Those sorts of forces receiving such a weapon is like giving matches and gasoline to a 4 year old: no one would be surprised if a fire were thereby started. Weapons of this sort are normally controlled by major militaries who also have radar, communications and transponder electronics, and commercial flight information, so this doesn't happen. Until now. . But you can't really blame people getting bombed from the sky for trying to shoot down the planes that bomb them. If you do, then you have to agree with the shabby and transparently dishonest excuse the US gives for blocking Manpads to the FSA for years - that jihadists might get them But those have a much shorter range. I don't study military matters, but from what I understand bombing is normally done from low altitudes in order to increase target accuracy, against which the shoulder fired missiles would be effective, and actually more portable. The separatists who fired that missile surely did not think they were protecting themselves from a bomber. The American concern for misuse of those portable missiles has to do with them being used closer to an airport where passenger planes are flying low. And anyway, I'm not particularly keen to see ISIS obtain them (though I'll concede they'd have a right to shoot at planes bombing them). But if ISIS were to obtain these BUK missiles? Whoa. Also, I do not think commercial airplane routes are determined the least bit by the countries which they fly through. Except in the particular cases of states which refuse overflight permission (as Ukraine did for flying below 10km). So you can blame the commercial aviation industry, I guess, except what they did was normal: balanced the conservation of fuel (costs) against what they perceived as a very small risk. As everyone had perceived it, until then. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Anti-Israel protesters rally across France, defying ban imposed after synagogue clash - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 19:03 19-07-14 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606036 This is really great news. The French government (namely Hollande) had issued a ban against anti-Israel demonstrations today (in democratic France). The NPA called on people to defy the ban, and many thousands in Paris, Marseille and other cities came out, with street battles against the police and over 40 arrested. Good photo coverage in The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/tear-gas-fired-at-propalestinians-demonstrators-in-paris-9616751.html - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Duplicate emails
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 09:41 04-07-14 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: On 7/3/14 8:18 PM, martin schiller wrote: when I 'reply' to a list msg, the new msg is addressed to the original sender and the list. If an original sender is the person who reported the problem, and is receiving duplicates of replies to his own messages, that should be the explanation. I tend to remove the original sender address and leave the list address when I reply. Hi, Martin I am cc'ing the list on this since I too was a bit puzzled by this. It turns out that there is no need to delete the sender of the email when replying because it only goes to the list and not to the sender, ie. you. Actually that is wrong (usually, at least). If someone just hits Reply, then the new email acquires 2 recipients in the To: field. One email goes to the list server and is forwarded to the list members, and the other one goes directly to the author of the mail that was replied to. So in this case, Louis should be receiving TWO copies of this email, one directly from Jeff, and the other one as a member of the list from Jeff via Marxism. Actually that isn't a great problem, just a bit confusing. Normally when replying I delete the recipient other than the list address (but didn't in this case, as a demonstration). It happens because the Reply-To: field has both addresses included. It should really only have the list address, like it used to, before things were changed a month ago to deal with an unrelated problem. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Duplicate emails
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 12:03 06-07-14 -0400, you wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/6/14 11:55 AM, Jeff wrote: Actually that is wrong (usually, at least). If someone just hits Reply, then the new email acquires 2 recipients in the To: field. One email goes to the list server and is forwarded to the list members, and the other one goes directly to the author of the mail that was replied to. So in this case, Louis should be receiving TWO copies of this email, one directly from Jeff, and the other one as a member of the list from Jeff via Marxism. No. I only received one email. Well that's real funny, because I just got two emails from you!! It is a bit confusing but Mailman sorts this out. No, the mail server couldn't possibly sort it out because it only received one of the emails, not the one that was sent (using the internet, as usual) directly to the sender. I'm sure others can attest to having received such double copies as I have described (and just received myself). I cannot understand why Lou doesn't observe this himself. Perhaps his email program collapses what it perceives as duplicates, though that's hard to imagine. Or perhaps he has two different addresses and is only looking at one. But there is no question that what I described is the case. The bigger problem is that sometimes when you do a reply, the list address is dropped, never the person who wrote the email. That is to watch out for. Specifically, in this instance when I replied, I had to add the list address Well that has never happened to me, but is interesting. The email that I sent out a few minutes ago includes the following header: Reply-To: Jeff meis...@xs4all.nl, Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Therefore if your email program is properly honoring the Reply-To header, it should have composed an email to both addresses. But all this shows is that email programs are not totally standardized, even dealing with plain email. But don't imagine that everyone's system is exactly the same as yours, or that I am just imagining that I get duplicate emails in the exact way I described for the exact reason I described! - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Duplicate emails
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 12:26 06-07-14 -0400, Les Schaffer via Marxism wrote: Jeff: can you check that you do not have a double filter rule that copies the same message twice ... we have discovered this with two Outlook users. its an honest enough mistake to check once. Les No, I'm quite sure that isn't the case and wouldn't explain exactly what I have described. Rather, when Lou sent an email to the list (but which also included my address) I received two similar emails, one from Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu (sent by the list, with the added Rule #1 etc.) and one from Louis Proyect l...@panix.com sent directly by his personal email account. Les, do you not likewise receive two copies of THIS email (which I just hit reply to, thus containing both addresses), as I have described? If not, then I am really confused. But aside from what Lou reported, it all makes sense given the Reply-To that is generated by the list server in its latest incarnation. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Duplicate emails
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 12:36 06-07-14 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: I should add that after polling the list, the only people who reported getting dupes had the Outlook problem Les alludes to. Well I don't understand that (and I certainly don't use Outlook myself!) but if it's not a problem to others then I'm certainly not going to waste any time worrying about it. And I'm sorry if I wasted others' time with an issue that, as I had said, doesn't cause any real harm to begin with. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Duplicate emails
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I said I wasn't going to worry about this (and I'm not worried). But looking back, I see that there were two totally separate issues involved. I just received this communication: Recently I have been receiving duplicates of all mailings from this list. That must be the problem you were talking about with two filter rules, so that EVERY email from the list gets duplicated ON HIS COMPUTER. That isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about a totally distinct problem which was reported under the same subject heading: On 7/3/14 8:18 PM, martin schiller wrote: when I 'reply' to a list msg, the new msg is addressed to the original sender and the list. If an original sender is the person who reported the problem, and is receiving duplicates of replies to his own messages, that should be the explanation. I tend to remove the original sender address and leave the list address when I reply. Hi, Martin Martin's experience is exactly mine, and is why I got two emails when Lou thought he was only posting to the list. But his email program also sent out one directly to me (as it should have done, given the Reply-To), as did one other post where someone responded to a post of mine. Again, I can't understand why no one else has noticed this. But if someone is looking at the list's email in a mailbox where all list emails are filtered into, then that mailbox will (depending on the rule) only show the one that came from the list, and the one sent directly might stay in the inbox, for instance. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] $500 million for Obama to support the revolution?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 18:14 26-06-14 -0400, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: WASHINGTON President Obama on Thursday requested $500 million from Congress to train and equip what the White House is calling appropriately vetted members of the Syrian opposition... Well in response to Shane's perhaps premature question: I'd say that after all of their broken promises and duplicity, the Obama regime OWES the Syrian revolutionaries the military assistance it has held back over these years. So insofar as this funding pays for equipment that the revolutionaries need, it should be approved. But of course what the Syrians need is NOT training, which they have obtained in the course of their own struggle (plus a large part of the FSA consists of defectors previously trained by the Syrian military). And in the above context, I can only see training as meaning the formation of a force that would be acceptable and loyal to the US, so that's even more repugnant. But if this were to go ahead, then I'd say that any such forces who arrive in Syria should have their equipment and weapons commandeered for use by the revolutionary forces as a whole. And then those individuals should be re-vetted, if you will, to see if they are really Syrian revolutionaries or more loyal to their trainers before they are trusted or given responsibilities. Well, I didn't really have to say all that, either. Because that is naturally what the Syrian revolutionaries would do. The idea that a country with deep pockets can just buy off a popular revolution has been dispelled, in my mind at least, by looking at the result of the Libyan experience. I don't say that no such danger exists, but the Syrian struggle has progressed way too far for them to be corrupted by gifts from the most untrustworthy of friends, as has been the US. - Jeff Various posters to this list have been vehement in their verbal support (and denunciation of those opposed) to what they are pleased to designate as the Syrian Revolution. So they each one now finally has to answer the question: There must be at least one member of Congress who you might hope would at least listen to your views--so what are you telling her/him to do when it comes to appropriating your money? The choices are Yes, No, or Abstain. Shane Mage Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Three reasons why Turkey misunderstands ISIS - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Thu, June 19, 2014 16:35, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: That the CIA might have inadvertently trained some ISIS fighters in Jordan Inadvertent? Yes, inadvertent. I find that Clay chooses his words carefully, and that's exactly what he meant and he knows what he's talking about. By way of illustration, here is another example of non-lethal aid by the US and UK which might have inadvertently fallen into the wrong hands, in this case not to jihadists but to mainstream Islamic revolutionaries in Syria. And then note the prompt action they took. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25331241 - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
