Re: [Marxism] Progressive politics stirring among Orthodox Jews - New York Daily News

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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"Progressives" not wearing masks or physical distancing as this image in 
article -
except by their backward religious based gender discrimination to separate and 
rank

Religion is an opium (and problem) - and a benefit for others privileged to use 
to exploit






From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 3:09 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com 
Cc: Louis Proyect 
Subject: [Marxism] Progressive politics stirring among Orthodox Jews - New York 
Daily News



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[Marxism] Biden Gets Push From Left-Leaning Groups to Slash Pentagon Budget - just liberal crap!

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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This is so wrong -

First, it was the Obama/Biden Administration that approved funding for the U. 
S. nuclear arsenal upgrade.
This article states it is Trump who is resposible - which is just false.
(For the record: Trump is a dangerous creep)

Second, to suggest that the U. S. capitalists are going to change their long 
held policies, to use militarism
to advance their economic interests - and to financially benefit from these 
wasteful weapons and huge profits
is just wrong.

Third, this is just pro-Biden b.s. promoted to create false illusions that the 
corporate dems "favor peace".

Fourth, how does "slashing" ten percent do anything but cause illusions that 
the U. S. military - is not what it is?
The current health crisis is exacerbated by the military barack/ship confines, 
as it was in the 1918 virus pandemic.

Fifth, the U. S. military is one of the largest contributors to the harms of 
Climate Change.
Cutting it ten percent is insufficient.  Does anyone on this list believe that 
the U. S. Airforce is going to "stand down"?

Only ending capitalism, will end these weapons of harm (nuclear weapons, 
biological weapons, etc.)
"reforming the wolves of greed" is a liberal reformist illusion. The CP 
political thinkers have accepted that illusion,
with their "peaceful co-existence"  b. s. that the former stalinists states 
promoted, to justify not having revolutions
to end the capitalist greed and harm to this world.   How did that work out?


From: Marxism  on behalf of Richard Taylor 
via Marxism 
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 7:38 PM
Cc: Richard Taylor 
Subject: [Marxism] Biden Gets Push From Left-Leaning Groups to Slash Pentagon 
Budget




> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforeignpolicy.com%2F2020%2F05%2F11%2Fbiden-left-leaning-groups-slash-pentagon-budget%2F%3Futm_source%3DPostUp%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3D21442%26utm_term%3DEditorsdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cd35dca90b66343a912df08d7f6a9751d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637249079979173712sdata=bG5S8dsKTUq%2BegYwy6ig2%2BtO5FTHdMEbzOZqGUxtJo0%3Dreserved=0
>  Picks OC& 
> 


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Re: [Marxism] What Socialists Can Take From Corporate Strategic Management

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:39 AM
To: causecollec...@msn.com 
Cc: Louis Proyect 
Subject: [Marxism] What Socialists Can Take From Corporate Strategic Management

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These idiots with their articles urging people to study Walmart for
hints on how socialism can be built. Now this. I am surprised they don't
single out McKinsey for emulation.

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[Marxism] Michael Moore’s environment film a slap in the face on Earth Day

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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A major problem is what Gore Vidal appropriately termed:

The United States of Amnesia

Not long ago during Michael Moores bitter divorce wth his wife -
she provided the truth about Michael Moore, when she released their financial 
records to that court and
was distributed widely to the public.

There revealed was Michael Moore's large stock holding in Boeing Corporation 
and Capitol One.
His 30 million dollar mansion in Michigan on top of his multi floor apartment 
complex in Manhattan

and not least his little ever contributing to chariites or progressie efforts.

He made well in excess of over fifty million from his books and films over a 
decade ago - taking in from the liberals and lefties
and is scamming all of them - to make a buck and seeking attention.

But that seems irrelevant to remember such things and facts.
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Re: [Marxism] He Could Have Seen What Was Coming: Behind Trump’s Failure on the Virus An examination reveals the president was warned about the potential for a pandemic but that internal divisions, l

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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No defense meant of Trump, he is awful.

But it seems to me that most all of the world left groups,
including ones involved in science and medicine - were way behind preparing and 
offering any plans either.

Many of us saw warnings for two yers about a new potential pandemic with wide 
airline usage to spread.

And most left groups still are offering little around organizing around this 
disease and the effects.
I saw the same with the HIV-AIDS Virus and the other recent virus threats.




Throughout January, as Mr. Trump repeatedly played down the seriousness of
the virus and focused on other issues, an array of figures inside his
government — from top White House advisers to experts deep in the cabinet
departments and intelligence agencies — identified the threat, sounded
alarms and made clear the need for aggressive action.

The president, though, was slow to absorb the scale of the risk and to act
accordingly, focusing instead on controlling the message, protecting gains
in the economy and batting away warnings from senior officials. It was a
problem, he said, that had come out of nowhere and could not have been
foreseen.


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Re: [Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Zowie Howie - Howie Hawkins will probably be the Green Party’s 2020 nominee | United States | The Economist

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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This makes no sense:

Is Howie Hawkins actually traveling (by car?)

and there was recently a campaign event in Chicago?








Howie Hawkins, the front-runner for the Green Party’s presidential
nomination, is inclined to look on the bright side. Munching on oatmeal
during a recent campaign visit to Chicago,
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[Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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According to this voice of the proletarians, those in the left who support the 
Bernie Sanders for President Campaign,
hold responsibility for how parts of the British working class did not vote for 
the Labour Party in that general election and
supported the Tories and were responsible for Starmer being the current 
favorite of those smaller numbers, selecting
that party's leader.

The actual truth is that the word: socialist and the concepts of what socialism 
is, have been brought to millions
by both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns - Not by 
these sectarians.

Everyone who supports Bernie Sanders, understands that the U. S. undemocratic 
party is controlled and reliant
on corporate interests and the politicians are servants to the capitalists. 
What this writer shares, is revealing the
deep sectarian unreality he and it appears this groups political line reveals.

Both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns, has raised 
more Class Awareness than all
the sectarian left elections held in the past hundred years, since the actual 
great labor leader Eugene Debs. This
writer as with all these sectarian cult like thinkers, refuse to recognize 
reality.  Their basic argumentis that the
U. S. Working Class must support their leadership, as the only way to make real 
change, is just not recognizing
the real conditions that exist.   And what would make this cult thinking group 
excited would be to double their
membership, to promote their leadership and especially their leaders.  They 
seek power for their group and
not for the actual working class, they claim to represent.

Many as myself have political differences with Bernie Sanders, but to suggest 
that the Bernie Sanders Campaign
has not been effective in raising Class Awareness and been a positive important 
expression of the advanced
layers of the U. S. working class - is being in denial, based on sectarian cult 
like thinking.  Bernie Sanders
decision to run for U.S. president, has benefited the U. S. working class and 
the advanced layers in it.  Unlike
this writer, Bernie Sanders has spent his life, as an advocate for working 
people needs and rights.  I have
disagreed with Bernie Sanders on many issues and likely will in the future, but 
his campaign has created a
desperately needed advance for what was a sectarian ineffective aging left.  
The advanced layers of the
working class can hopefully learn and take advantage of both Bernie Sanders for 
U. S. President Campaigns
and not go in the defeatist direction of these sectarians.

Their voices are being ignored, as reflecting sectarian unreality, when what is 
needed is to address reality
and the challenges for the working class coming to power and not some small 
sectarian group that only
seeks power for themselves. Religious cult like thinking should be rejected, in 
favor of socialist thinking
on how to empower the working class.


-



Jeremy Corbyn’s tenure as leader of the Labour Party came to an end with
the election of Sir Keir Starmer. Starmer is an establishment figure who
easily defeated his Corbynist opponent. This development shows the
failure of Corbyn’s strategy and holds a warning for the U.S. left in
regards to Bernie Sanders.



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Re: [Marxism] Relief Package is neither stimulus nor workers' lifeline, it’s again massive bailout to tottering corporations By Mike Whitney

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The response to the homophobia Jimmy Dore states today:

"theres some people who get offended" (read queers and queer lovers)
and he "remains unconvinced" - citing the pandemic crisis does not deserve 
recognizing his homophobic insults.


Always an excuse to not address homophobia, as the same excuse for racism and 
sexism not being addressed.
And usually it is the same privileged who contend "there are always too many 
important other issues to deal with".

But it seems there is always time to keep using homophobia - strange how that 
works, when people do not want to accept
and recognize their wrongs!   Time always for wrong and no effort to be better.



From: Marxism  on behalf of J.B. Nicholson 
via Marxism 
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 4:42 PM.

John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
> Jimmy Dore spews constant homophobia, such as with his favorite use of
> "cocksucker" as a perjorative and few challenge him for doing such - reflects 
> the
> homophobia still acceptable on much of U.S. left - "as funny".

Around 16 minutes into 
https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSX3DDvrbPmMdata=02%7C01%7C%7C59f8cda19bc04e60980708d7d5cdec28%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637212952710012476sdata=58vG9UhNDcdl57f6W%2Bnqvn%2Bdv%2BbN60qEw59G%2F2PVTyY%3Dreserved=0
 he addresses this
choice of language from himself. He said, "I'm sorry I shouldn't -- there's some
people who get offended when I say 'cocksucker' in a derogatory way. I love 
having my
cock sucked. And I respect all cocksuckers.". I remain unconvinced that petty
namecalling and ugly language is the important take-away message as people lose 
their
lives during this pandemic and now stand to lose their income and homes (maybe 
even
more) even if they live, all while seeing their self-described "progressive"
Congressional representatives and so-called "progressive" media support the 
largest
business bailout without a fight.

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[Marxism] Relief Package is neither stimulus nor workers' lifeline, it’s again massive bailout to tottering corporations By Mike Whitney

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Jimmy Dore spews constant homophobia, such as with his favorite use of 
"cocksucker" as a perjorative

and few challenge him for doing such - reflects the homophobia still acceptable 
on much of U.S. left - "as funny".






Thanks for making your last paragraph a breakdown of how terrible Jimmy Dore is 
so that no one else has to chime in to point out he's an awful person in 
general and certainly an awful "leftist".

Tristan

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[Marxism] religious responsibility "personal distancing plus social solidarity"

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I encourage all right wing religious fanatics to gather together inside their 
churches and temples
to spread their love to each other and hope the virus brings them to their god 
much sooner!

They want to be in their paradise - and I share that view that they should.

Very revealing that the religious hypcrites are in fear of this virus - they do 
not trust their god
and do not want to be with their god sooner.

They want their consumer goods instead of their god - just shameeful lack of 
faith!



*

We can always ask the Pope to pray for us.  That worked well in the
fourteenth century, didn't it?
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[Marxism] Trotskyist Euphemisms

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Thank Aaron for posting this which seems to reflect my experiences and awareness


Group Think as "religious thinking" -

identifies much about sectarian left thinking - on wanting to belong with those 
who share similar values and concerns
but individual thought is actively suppressed - and resisting any new 
awareness.  When I was in the U. S. SWP youth group the YSA,
I did not agree with that party's homophobia or its support of homophobic 
figures in other lands.  But I kept quiet on this, wanting
"to belong" to what I viewed as the most dedicated group of people who had (for 
the most part but homophobia) the best politics.

However, practice was different in actual form than what was expressed 
verbally.  "Democratic Centralism" was less democratic and
respectful of others and far more centralist top down.  And this in a time when 
no real condirions warranted this - but to have only
the faithful loyal to the leader(s).

I was attracted to the ideas of Marxism and against exploitation and injustice. 
  I remain identified with Marxism -
despite the followers who could have been in other religious based cult groups 
with their "group think and faith".

Those who "were trained" and provided ONLY one narrow history to support their 
views and actions and ignore all other
left groups as to their successes and experiences.   And yes limitations such 
as the Stalinists who also were wiiling to adapt to
"group think" and religious thinking.  And I have noticed this in many 
anarchist circles as well.

None of us asked to be born and we each navigate this world (many with hostile 
surroundings) and insecurity and inexperience
and lacking awareness, trusting others to know it all or better, are often what 
makes up the new recruits and those staying are
more confortable with being connected to a "party of believers".  Zinoviev 
preferred "religious thinking", while myself I have
appreciated thinking - and why I oppose capitalism.

--


So after reading George Orwell's 1946 essay 'Politics and the English Language' 
I was inspired to look at some of the euphemisms that I have encountered in my 
own time in the IMT:

Education:You meet up with a more senior ‘comrade’ or set of comrades as part 
of either aone-on-one or reading group. This comrade is very familiar with the 
“line” andwell-read on Marxist theory. There is an hour or so of discussion, in 
which youare intellectually browbeaten into accepting the correctness of the 
organisation’sposition. For those brave souls who challenge the official 
narrative, you willbe accused of formalism, subjectivism and not understanding 
dialectics. Youwill then be warned that if you continue down this path, you 
will abandonMarxism and socialism altogether and become a liberal. It is a form 
ofbullying. It is not altogether different from how a Christian would react if 
afellow church member questioned the teachings. ‘Walk by faith, not by sight. 
Ifyou continue down this path, you’ll become an atheist, and hellfire awaits 
you.’ In other words, 'education' is simply another terms for brainwashing.

Social: Underthe guise of a party, you find yourself surrounded by people who 
think the samethings. You are bombarded with endless talk about ‘dialectics’, 
‘contacts’, ‘papers’,‘subs’, and all the rest of it. These are your ‘friends’, 
and you are all partof the vanguard, the Elect that is going to save the 
working-class fromcapitalist hell. You consider these people to be the 
smartest, bravest and mostheroic people on the face of the planet. They seem so 
sure of themselves. Howcan you doubt what they are saying for even a minute? 
Also, almost everyonegets drunk, and drunkenness further inhibits your ability 
to think criticallyabout anything that is being said.

Comrade: Amember of the vanguard organisation. This label is reserved strictly 
for othertrue believers. No one within the broader left is considered one. They 
are alleither pseudo-Marxists, or left-reformists, or liberals. Therefore, it 
ispossible to have ‘ex-comrades’ who weren’t cut out to be part of the 
vanguardand have dropped out. These people are heretics, forever condemned, 
never to betalked of or heard from again.

Contact:Someone who is a potential recruit. Anyone who has come into the orbit 
of theorganisation – someone who has bought a paper, attended a meeting or had 
anextended chat with a comrade – is eligible. They are ‘followed up’ 
ruthlesslyand bombarded with requests for a meeting. At that meeting, politics 
will beraised and the discussion will 

[Marxism] 2020 - Sanders Takes Top Spot In Dem | Quinnipiac University Connecticut

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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DW writes that Bernie Sanders, a declared socialist - being in a national poll -
in first place as a candidate for president of the United States - "is no big 
deal".

Well, it is a BIG hopeful deal to myself and many others who have never seen
such in our lifetimes.  It concretely shows a radicalizing and class awareness
by a growing part of the U.S. national working class - particularly youth that
compose both the largest sector of voters and are also supporters of Bernie.

I could lie and state that I am sorry, the very isolated and ineffective 
sectarian left
may not get their pronouncements and wishes met - and Bernie Sanders actually
does succeed in winning.

However, I would prefer Bernie over Trump - and that obviously "small detail" to
some of the sectarian leftists, of  Bernie taking on the fosil fuel industry 
destruction
of a sustainable environment.

>From my obviously naive view that I hold - of without breatheable air and
livable temperature - one can organize nothing.  There are no movements,
no organizations, no protests - nothing.

So while some seem to join with the corporate folks unhappy with Bernie gaining
support for the views he expresses of his tame social democracy, while those as
myself who hold views to the left, will be happy if Bernie takes the state 
elections
tomorrow in New Hampshire and the many U. S. states to yet happen over the
next four months.

I have heard in a positive way the word socialism being spoken and millions in 
the
U. S. starting to become more aware of - due to the Bernie Sanders for President
Campaigns.  Not the isolated ineffective sectarian leftists, that seem more 
jealous
than supportive of this.

Abstaining and sitting and complaining - a fine example of sectarian minded
that use to be the Sparts and the Healyites - but when one stands still - and
the world changes, one finds themselves isolated and irrelevant.

The reformist Bernie Sanders of older age, is doing more each day to promote
class awareness and why I am proudly supporting and volunteering for. I truly
look forward to picketing U. S. president Sanders in the White House on many 
issues.

But I am confidant that Bernie will take on the fossil fuel industry and 
decrease
nuclear weapons.  That is far more than the ineffective and isolated sectarians 
ever will.

If I am wrong, only my time and hopes are wasted, but if I am correct, it seems
the results would be worth that hope and chance.  The sectarian left has nothing
to offer - but their egos needing to be most perfectly aware.  Those not 
"retired"
from activism and trying to be effective, can join the many of us who determined
there is no other game or choice to both raise needed awareness of the 
radicalizing
young workers and an eventual mass party of and by working people for our needs
while the isolated petit bourgeois academics condemn everything happening that
they are not leading.

Should the corporate dems reveal "even more clearly" to many working people
their refusal to support even a mild social democrat. That they are loyal 
servant
politicians to the greedy wealthy destryers of our environment and all life on 
it,
this can well be a "BIG DEAl", and I am hoping will lead to a viable organized
mass working class and political party that further events might lead to.

Abstention changes nothing and will have no positive effect.
When there is someone on the ballot who does represent (even if weakly) a
socialist (social democrat) platform - then what is there really to lose in
supporting?  Keeping one's religious pure views of perfection, or getting
involved with the working class that might have important segments in motion
and open to more awareness and activism?   I will only support Bernie for
U. S. president and not any corporate dem.  Why not work and support that?



I've already noticed Sander's supporters going crazy on this. It's one poll
folks. What is the big deal? It is so early in this party primary campaign
season that nothing significant can really be derived from any of these
polls so early on. The Quinnipiac poll has Sanders leading nationally. But
no poll shows him with more than 27%. That means among Democratic Party
votes, 73% vote, literally, for someone else. The polls in the last 30 days
show Biden still winning the nomination. The NBC poll last week by "5pts".
The Morning Consult poll from the week before has Biden winning by "4pts."
It really is a muchado about nothing.

DW

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[Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I do not understand why people, such as many in the CPUSA, keep suggesting
that Warren is "anti-capitalist".  Her record shows different as someone who
supported every military budget and war.  She is just a lying politician - and
with her long years of activism as a reactionary in Oklahoma, the CPUSA crowd
is now supportive of bourgeois feminists, as militarists such as Hillary Clinton
and now Elizabeth Warren. Any corporate  democrat will do for them?

And what is outrageous when there is an actual social democrat as Bernie 
Sanders,
the CPUSA crowd instead of doing all they can to help Sanders, are suggesting:
"there is no real political differences between Warren and Sanders"

- that is b.s.

And for those sectarians on this list, who remind me of what Lenin wrote about
such, who sat round in comfort in the Paris cafe's, complaining that there 
should
be nothing done, until they approve of the political awareness of those in 
motion.

There are actually many people in motion supporting the Bernie Sanders Campaign
and not waiting for "approval" from those sitting and doing not much else than 
that!

Reality, that millions are supporting a Bernie Sanders for U. S. President 
Campaign
and raising Class Awareness. It does not fit political wishes of some who would
like to be leading themselves, as "so knowing all" - and you can ignore or 
pretend - but
it will not stop or change the events ahead.  You should instead as myself, get 
involved
in the largest election campaign promoting socialist views ever seen in our 
lifetimes.
Feel The Bern and stop abstaining, to only help the opposition to a president 
Sanders.

Who benefits from that?  Not the world's working class - and that seems why you
should be supporting Bernie NOW and we can see if obstacles and successes ahead
might get you even more involved and recognize why this is not "usual times and
just another usual U. S. election".





.

That's why I support Bernie's promise to support whoever the DEMS nominate
--- and will figtht like a tiger for him (or Warren) against ruling class
betrayal if one of them surprises us and gets the nomination ...


.
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[Marxism] Gallup Survey shows majority denounces Assad and YPG deal with the regime

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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How naive


Does anyone believe this "Gallup survey" in these war conditions and strife 
held there -
represent actual views of the majority, or significant numbers?  Even when 
limited to a small region of Syria.
Gallup is a suspect company as well comrades, as not being "neutral"!

Perhaps some academics possibly whom never had to experience being in such 
civil war conditions - might believe,
but why would any Marxist?

Do you think that strangers asking people what they actually think and believe, 
are going to provide?

What remains clear to me is:
there is no mass left group in Syria
often we have posts from academics in comfort outside of Syria who know less of 
actual conditions there

Personally and politically, I am more interested in what advances the KWP and 
YPG can make
than the now familiar Vienna Austria street corner gatherrings of the "chosen 
party of the faithful".

We understand the weaknesses in the Syria left - that seems comparable to the 
U. S. in current ways
with religious forces and idea,s being of more influence than Marxist thought.

The struggle for 'hearts and minds" are not being advanced in these posings - 
just ego and
some weird identifying with forces from comfort far from the strife and 
conditions that many
Syrian people endure daily.

Any illusion that the governments of Turkey, Russia, Iran or their surrogates, 
will bring about a
Syrian workers government, or even local worker controlled communities opposing 
capitalism and
exploitation, seems unrealistic and against Marxist awareness and thought of 
the Class Strugle.







.

A survey conducted by the same organisation across the whole of Syria in March 
2018 found that 41 percent thought Russia had a "positive" influence on Syria.

41 percent thought Turkey had a positive influence (presumably not the same 
41%, though there might be some overlap as a result of various Russia-Turkey 
deals).

40% thought the Assad regime had a positive influence, compared with 40% for 
the "opposition", 15% for the SDF and 10% for "Al Nusrah".


I remain skeptical.  But perhaps RKOB will cease opposing the Astana process, 
given the seeming popularity of Russia, Turkey and Assad.

Chris Slee
.
.
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[Marxism] Lynching

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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What I am about to state, is no way a defense of Trump, who is hardly being 
threatened of hanging without trial.

But the uninformed liberals do a dis-service in implying that lynchings were 
solely carried out on African Americans, in the USA.
It is a sad historical fact that African Americans were lynched in large 
numbers, since colonial period and continues to be carried out
I would state today by police and others, generaly not by rope but by bullet, 
"which are without trials".

However, lynchings by rope, have been carried out in the U. S. against many 
LGBT people and also often against Asians, Latnix and Native Americans -
and also leftists (Frank Little comes to mind) and others (Leo Frank in 
Georgia), etc.

Vigilante efforts or organized governments efforts, have carried out lynchings 
throughout U.S. history against many "unpopular" people.
Mostly conducted by those among the faithful god believing WASPS.



Wall Street Journal Editorial, Oct. 23, 2019
Donald Trump's 'Lynching'

Donald Trump made himself a political celebrity in 2016 by persuading
news media to talk about -- Donald Trump. He did it mainly by the
expedient of saying outrageous things -- by trolling, in the parlance of
social media -- and it worked. It's still working, though these days as
often to his detriment as advantage.

On Tuesday the President guaranteed he'd be topic number one for at
least 24 hours by tweeting that the effort to impeach him is a
"lynching." Instantly, and perhaps as he intended, his critics in the
media, on Capitol Hill and elsewhere expressed rage and disbelief that
Mr. Trump could compare the conduct of his political opponents to the
mobs that murdered African-Americans in an earlier, shameful era.

The verb to lynch means to execute without a trial or due process. It
doesn't refer only to extrajudicial killings in the post-Reconstruction
and Jim Crow South. Accordingly, it's occasionally used in a figurative
sense in other English-speaking countries. But in the United States the
word is electric for its historical context, and you don't have to
indulge in racial hypersensitivities to appreciate why. Clarence Thomas
famously used it during his confirmation hearing in 1991 when, as he saw
it, a cabal of white liberals sought to destroy his nomination to the
Supreme Court by a "high-tech lynching." Justice Thomas had what we
would call political and historical standing.

But no President should use the word in the off-hand and self-indulgent
way that Mr. Trump did in his tweet. What's so galling about this and
similar pointless provocations is that, in his quest to remain always
and forever in the headlines, Mr. Trump puts his more judicious allies
on the political spot. Every Republican in Congress is immediately asked
either to ignore him and risk association with his reckless
pronouncements, or criticize him and risk his wrath.

Democrats are bent on impeaching Mr. Trump, and if he wants to survive
he is going to need allies -- especially in Congress. The more he forces
Republicans to defend words or actions that don't deserve defending, the
more their resentment will build and the more political trouble he will
be in.

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Re: [Marxism] Russia-Turkey 10-point agreement disclosed

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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mkaradjis forwarded articles by Conrad Black, suggesting that he was 
representing the U.  S. capitalist class.
This National Review writer is neither significant or part of the U. S. 
capitalist class -  just a grateful Trump supporter who was pardoned by Trump 
this year:

Conrad Black - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Black
[https://www.bing.com/rs/5g/R4/ic/5fb14f5d/f9bbbf72.png]
Overview
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OCW.1c8eb244-598f-4b7c-ac74-7b85329064d3=100=100=7=13.1]

Conrad Moffat Black, Baron Black of Crossharbour, 
KCSG
 (born August 25, 1944), is a Canadian-born British former newspaper 
publisher and author. In 
2007, he was convicted on four counts of fraud in U.S. District 
Court
 in Chicago. While two of the criminal 
fraud 
charges were dropped on appeal, a conviction for felony fraud and obstruction 
of justice were upheld in 2010 and he was re-sentenced to 42 months in prison 
and a fine of $125,000. In 2018, he wrote a glowing book about President Donald 
Trump. On May 1.5, 2019, he was granted a full 
pardon
 by 
Trump

Here's another:  
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2Fauthor%2Fconrad-black%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C559695199e804eaa489b08d757cb0090%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637074401701375169sdata=RlXmdkQpr8%2B0j7HPMkVtItR%2BaPQGeta1oZMIGuNQAjo%3Dreserved=0
Though I agree they are the absolute minority.





On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 1:28 AM Glenn Kissack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> > Will Chris Slee, or anybody else, please provide any evidence that any
> significant wing of the US capitalist class and their strategists supported
> Trump's withdrawal of troops from NE Syria?

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Re: [Marxism] Russia-Turkey 10-point agreement disclosed (ANF)

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Comrade Slee,

It is clear you want to support and defend the Kurds, long denied nationhood 
and under present attack.
I share your basic sentiments of solidarity.

But from my view, you do a disservice on contorting political reality,when you 
state:


Trump, despite his erratic words, acts to defend the interests of US 
imperialism as he sees them.  He has intensified the US blockades of Cuba and 
Venezuela.  Hence it is not surprising that he wants to crush the Rojava 
revolution.

Chris Slee

It seems more credible that Trump does what the Putin government wants  - to 
weaken U. S. influence, cause internal conflict in NATO and
with the intelligence agencies, including in the U. S.

My understanding believes Trump cares nothing about the Kurds (he views them 
through his racist and xenophobic prejudice as "lessers")
but he is under the influence of Putin.  We know that Putin has been 
interacting and in contact with the far right wing in many lands  Putin's
personal financial coruption with his Russian nationalist views (including as a 
devout orthodox christian, where his contacts with the far right
seem to have originated).  We can observe Donald Trump has ties to 
international far right wing groups, has relationships with those who
have attended world conferences of these far right wing groups..  And there 
seems many of these right wing groups have relationships
with Putin and Trump, that seems to make them politically compatible - which is 
NOT in the interst of key sectors of  U. S. imperialism.

It is why the conflicting messages from Trump where first he announces 
withdrawl of troops and then becuase of pressure from many in the
U. S. Congress, the military, etc. - repositions some in Iraq with eyes always 
on the oil comrade!

Most everything the U.S. government does in that region of the world, is around 
oil and support for Israel - and did I mention oil?

None of those on this list, believe that Putin has some kind of "deep concern 
for Erdogan and the Turkey elite,or Assad, it is all about
national interests and influence - and diminishing the power and alliances of 
what Putin sees as his main threat - the U. S.

Trump is not carrying out the interests of the neo-conservatives, or of 
expanding markets for the U. S. wealthy or the international neo-liberal gang.
Just the opposite has been clearly happening, with Trump being viewed more 
unstable and a problem with the decades of efforts to
create alliances and expand the U. S. capitalists  world wide influence.

Trump's actions seem always to undermind the various alliances between the U. 
S. government institutions and its allies.
The Syrians, the Kurds, the Turkey government - are all pawns in the game of 
power and influence.  We all agree that working people
are not the intended beneficiares of these world power games manuevers.  But 
Trump never thought about the Kurds - only about
defeating ISIS and of course - the oil.  Trump is the same as Obama ,Bush, 
Clinton, etc.  They are addicted to oil and know of no other
cheap energy source to make both enormous profits and maintain their war 
machines and economies to benefit from.

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Re: [Marxism] Democratic Party debate

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Mark,

I agree the corporate media debate format, is more a beauty contest for 
obtaining
campaugn donations and endorsers - and that answers you question on why the
"chosen"  take part - for those donations and supporters that without - there 
would
be no serious way to contnue for most all of them.

However, I was  pleased with Bernie Sanders and with the billionaire publicly 
admitting
that Bernie Sanders is correct with the rigged system and the wealthy 
benefitting off
the workers.  This is not news to us - but helped raise awareness to some and 
led others
to hopefully question - what the game and team are actually doing!

The mud wrestling idea you raise - would help with more viewership and better 
ratings.
As for "dignity", I have not seen much of that in any political office holder 
competition
debate.Some acting coaches, speech writers and political consultants. 
putting forward
a "professional politician",  as a sports figure on view - to get behind and 
identify with.

Using false insinuation of playing on hopes and making sure the performing 
candidate
shows their ability to entertain, gain support and always show their loyal 
service to
the producers and managers of the candidate game performance race.  As with most
games of the master owners - this one has a lot rigged too.

Bernie Sanders understands that - and has decided to "perform and play".  He 
with
his awareness and whatever weak politics from our views, so far has been more
effective than most of us, in raising Class Awareness and the word and concept 
of:
socialism.   Bernie was good in raising and identifying the threats and issues 
that
are confronting Our Class.

>From my view, Bernie is doing better than Jack Barnes, James Robertson, etc.
I have seen the political theater of those people pretending they are "our 
leaders",
but last night was a larger viewership and seeing how the various corporate 
owned
candidates offered themselves - as the "alternative to Trump".

But the Empire has been in crisis from within, between the greed corruption
and expectations of the "American Dream".  Of the 2008 Recession, revealing more
to the actual nightmare and join many already in their real experiences "as 
losers" in
the capitalist pyramid scheme.

We see hopes of those caught up in the consumerism culture and denial - that 
are not
making it!  And expect to see more with unfolding events - and the "ideas" of a 
socialist
planned economy for workers interests and a wild hope we share perhaps for a 
worker run
cooperative society.

The corporate media has their intent and ideas, they want to transmit for their 
owners
benefit.  Epect these monthly "performance debates" will lead to many asking -
what was accomplished and it was more boring than entertaining - with 
expectations
dashed.  But could that not be the corporate rulers intentions and deceptions - 
to
prefer many watch a baseball game or some comedy show or some religious ministry
show instead?  To ignore politics and ideas (workers told they have no 
influence in such)
and just listen to the media talking head "experts".

I think Mark's suggestion for mud wrestling might be a good idea for both the
media ratings, advertisers and us the consumer viewers, to be better 
entertained.
Some might get more informed in that process - revealing it is all 
entertainment by
the real stage managers - as any theater productions.  Ignore the Military 
Industrial
Complex behind that curtain of deception, with posing as some kind of great 
wizard
for "candidates" ratings approval - to save us.  Bernie states we need a mass 
movement
and not to rely on just some saviour wizard, no matter how smiling and soothing 
the
false words and promises.Seeems good advice to me, can we do it - and build 
a
real alternative to what the corporate entertainment (posing as news) considers 
to
be "acceptable to them"?








These "debates" have become less substantive and more of a spectacle every
time they do them.  Their corporate sponsorship and the requirement of a
certain level of campaign moo-lah in order to buy your part of the platform
makes the fundamental nature of electoral politics absolutely
transparent--as much as the motives of the Democratic National Committee
and the various organs of the media in sponsoring and structuring them. All
the commentary building up to them aims at encouraging confrontational
rhetoric and minimizing conflict over substantive questions.  The whole
thing is modeled on a game show and it's no secret that that's what framed
the election of the present Con-artist-in-Chief.

And they've gotten worse every four 

Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble

[John Obrien via Marxism]

ilm houses - do 
not seem to understand that they might be in a very
different political environment, in a relative short time it seems.  This 
whether an economic "correction" on the Dow Jones or other
financial markets.  It just likely will exacerbate the political crisis.

Am I alarmist and not viewing reality - but perhpas I am, understanding history 
and what is unfolding.   You should be happy that
Bernie Sanders wins, because the alternative will not be as nice for the 
laborers and oppressed, which I am among the ranks of.

Those with privilege might have more options to continue "as usual".  But 
history does not show that is likely.  Repression and
efforts to retain power and privilege, usually have a different approach, than 
academic strong debate.

Politico and the New York Times agree on who should rule and for whom.













From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 1:38 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com 
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine

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On 10/1/19 4:29 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
>
> You shared the corporate media article trying to persuade and deceive people 
> not to support Bernie Sanders.
> But you do not share any articles or success by those supporting Bernie 
> Sanders.  When unions endorse Bernie Sanders
> you do not mention as significant.  One would think this reflects welcome 
> news of unons supporting someone openly
> who mentions the word socialism in a favorable way.

Except for the article's title, it is worthwhile, in-depth coverage of
the Sanders campaign. If you want pablum, read Jacobin, In These Times
or The Nation.
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[Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Louis,

You shared the corporate media article trying to persuade and deceive people 
not to support Bernie Sanders.
But you do not share any articles or success by those supporting Bernie 
Sanders.  When unions endorse Bernie Sanders
you do not mention as significant.  One would think this reflects welcome news 
of unons supporting someone openly
who mentions the word socialism in a favorable way.

Today a day after your sharing the hit piece by Robert Allbritton (the wealthy 
banker owner of  Politico) and their
anti-communist editor Matthew Kaminski (former editor of the Wall Street 
Jourmal), you do not share that Bernie Sanders
Campaign raised 19 million dollars in the recent quarter.  That seems some 
promising news that small contributors and no
corporate funds, raised that Huge amount this summer.  Being a poor laborer, I 
did not send any of those funds. But it
shows that millions of people reject the corporate message to not support 
socialism.

It is not Bernie Sanders who is in trouble - unlike you and myself, Bernie has 
been able to break through the corporate
deceit and messaging, to reach many people and raise class awareness of tens of 
millions.  Let me repeat that, since
some sectarians seeking power control for themselves, envisioning they are 
Lenin or perhaps Stalin, Mao, Fidel -
Bernie Sanders has raised Class Awreness of tens of millions of laborers.  My 
hope is for my Class to have control and
not some pathetic insecure individual as Stalin, to advance a better world.

Whatever my political differences with Bernie Sanders, he is successful in 
getting his message out.   But I write this
not to just respond to sectarian thinking that seems more religious than 
materialist, in developing a militant working
class.  Sectarians isolated with no roots in the working class, always miss the 
"small detail" that one has to interact
with people on what their concerns are.


Actually it is humanity that is in trouble along with all life on this planet.

The very weak and unorganized left in the U. S., so much based in the academia 
professional milieu
are not capable of fighting  the fascists, let alone challenging the ruling 
class and their repressive state apparatus.


Here we have an old stubborn man Bernie Sanders, whom I share political 
differences with -
but I am definitely supporting him - because he seems the only hope that some 
force will end the fossil fuel
and farming animal industires destruction of our environment, to survive.

The other (electable) candidates will serve the greedy capitalists  head long 
march to destruction.
They are just lying politicians who seek personal advancement.

Bernie is not a revolutionary socialist.  But he will do three things for why I 
and many others support him:

1- He will be serious on addressing fossil fuel usage/destruction
2 - He will spend effort to address and reduce significantly nuclear weapons
3 - He will encourage an independent movement and awareness to not rely on 
politicians but to encourage
  people to join groups and be part of independent movements.

The events to come and those of us involved with working people, can then 
hopefully raise awareness of in
the class that will have to address the perceived challenges to come with 
unfolding events around Trump
and his supporters.  That class - my class, can only be fooled for so long, 
until they decide to end capitalist
rule and exploitation.

Sectarian isolated Marcists  are too often like those in some religious cult 
group - ignoring reality for
only what they want.  I wish Bernie well.  His successes are not defeats for 
socialist advocates, or the
working class.

Consider who wants Bernie Sanders to lose - and then what should be asked is: 
why would any person
who considers themselves a socialist of rational thought, want the same as 
them?   I am for a sustainable
environment and against nuclear weapons and organizing a militant aware working 
class.  Bernie Sanders
is both raising those three major concerns - and why Politico's ownership and 
funders, want to stop him.












https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.com%2Fmagazine%2Fstory%2F2019%2F09%2F30%2Fbernie-sanders-2020-election-decline-228755data=02%7C01%7C%7C0cd6346742584963369808d745c6ccff%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637054592446112874sdata=M5xfahNa5BW7%2BVncenEUnvUbDEkS92NwVJQMBZrSi%2BI%3Dreserved=0

[Marxism] Tim Wohlforth

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Tim Wohlforth joined DSA a couple of years ago,  as many, including myself.


However - he never apologized for his awful homophobic writings in WL newspaper 
(The Bulletin).

His closeted wife Nancy who also as editor of that paper, printed the same vile 
homophobic garbage -
eventually left him when safe for her to come out and be a Lesbian in San 
Francisco, where she
became a leader of the OPEU and finally involved herself in the LGBT Movement.

Those who followed unquestioning such flawed people as Healey, Robertson and 
Barnes - show their lack of
self respect and insecurity, more looking for a religious type cult group "to 
belong and be accepted" - than one
based on ideas (political program, world view, etc.)  - and most important: 
common sense reality.

These insecure tragic figures who sought only power for themselves and not the 
working class.

 -



.


That obit says that he was a member of the DSA when he was young. I don't think 
so, since the DSA didn't exist back then. More likely he was a member of the  
Socialist Youth League, which was the youth arm of Max Shachtman's Independent 
Socialist League.


.

-- Original Message --
From: Matt Kelly via Marxism 
Subject: [Marxism] Tim Wohlforth
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:06:05 +0300



First James Robertson, now Tim Wohlforth

..
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Re: [Marxism] Kashmir

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I hold the view that a nation of people who the majority believe and practice -

racism, sexism, homophobia - should be challenged and interfered with - to end 
such practices.



And that the position that only a peple of a nation decide their fate - is not 
historically accurate.

Did the people of Germany in 1939 - 1945 decide their fate?


I am an internationalist who respects cultural identity but not based on or 
supportve of religion.

Religion is backward.







Comrade Raju Das,  First let us agree that the 
people of a country are the ones who decide their fate. If it is not so, then 
revolutionary
change is impossible. If you say that only the people of Kashmir have the right 
to decide their fate, then why not Tamils decide their
fate, Bengal people their own fate etc etc. It virtually means that India 
should break up into thousands of pieces. For your kind
information, Hyderabad City with 9 million people has 1 million Muslims. Do you 
advocate that they should fight for their
independence from India? My neighbour is a Muslim, another in the upper floor 
is a Christian. So my apartment block should be
divided in to so many smaller countries? We Indian communists vehemently oppose 
the cancellation of Special Status for Kashmir
(Article 370 of the Constitution).
As an Indian yourself, you know very well what binds The Dalit (untouchable) 
farmer of Tamilnadu with the Jat farmer of Punjab -
both feel they are Indians and belong to one nation, though they belong to 
different ethic, language, religion and caste groups. Some
friends here do not seem to like the very idea of India. Well, it is left to 
their wisdom.
Vijaya Kumar M

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Re: [Marxism] Gilroy, El Paso, Dayton: Why and What Next?

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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For those who accept any attack on the left, to quickly post here,
and what is this reliable source of "apparent" and what is the  "worth:
needed to state here?

it is possible that this Dayton shooter lied about his real political views
promoting himself on the internet social media sites, to lure others his age
to have them look up to him with respect and awe - that he much sought?

And just might have been a very mentally ill anti-social person - due to
alienation, inscurity and lack of self worth.  We have one currently in
the White House Oval Office, presently sitting behind the Resolute Desk
with the same anger and anguish.   The very same mentality.

Obviously, for the stories (not confirmed facts) - that he supported Elizabeth 
Warren
(who herself a  lying pro-capitalist self-promoting poiitician seeking personal 
gain)
and he also made up rape lists of women targets - seems more a reactionary would
dream up suh  to promote and for intention to cause confusion and take the focus
off the extreme right wing.

Those intending such attacks on civilian public areas, are the exteme right 
wing.
Why would a so called "leftist" attack and target poor workers at bars of high
numbes of People of Color, wanting to party (rather than at church on Sunday?)
Including killing his working class sister.  His grand parents gave him shelter 
and
he knows that act alone, would hurt them.  So does that make any sense -or
reflects what we  should expect - another young white male acting his anger out.

It is why with such high levels of anti-social aliention and insecurity, that 
having easy
access to high volume shooting automatic weapons with large bullet capacity,
such as the AK47, AR 15 and the easier to hold Glocks 17 and  18 models easy
reloads, less heated up weapons to hold, is a increasing problem for many in
working class communities,under economic seige and emotional stress.

Working Class communities under increasing militarized police occupation,
that also should be part of the "sharing" of issues around these public area
attacks of civilians.  We hear constantly at the top of all local news each 
night
of the "violence" - not of the empire's military forces and mercenaries and 
client
state operators oppressing our comrades and laborers - but local store 
robberies,
home break ins, family violence - all with the same message each nightand day:
"lock your doors, be afriad of your neighbors and all you do not know - and
trust the police who are the only force to protect you from all the outsiders.
Don't hang out in public areas socializing with neighbors, stay inside watch
television and computer screens - and fear the general communiy of strangers.

Did you get the message - being promoted by much of the corporate media?
It is not "ratings" with covering police car chases, most working people are
bored with them taking up their expected tv viewing of more than a car chase
that goes on and on - and one looks like the others.  Boring

It is messaging - and by whom and for what purpose - and if you believe it is
all coincidental but instead promoted what to cover and what to not mention,
such as those nothersome climate up date reports that do not place the fossil
fuel companies in as positive a light.

Shooter in Dayton - Yep, not just the usual police - and how many shot today in 
other
nations and why?  No time for that "much less important coverage".

Who is being programed and conditioned?  Is it just providing news and who
are the news directors and news editors. serving and obeyong for that news?

Sure don't you see we obviously need more police control and surveilance
and some less civil liberties to eliminate the threat of potential terrorism.
Not of course eliminate the capitalist terrorism arond the world, to silence
those objecting and questioning.After all there must be "priorities" and
established by experts selected by various committees appointed by people
that can not be removed from office through "simple elections.  self electing
commississions and board oversight groups.  We can "certainly trust them"!
They are only trying to help us and protect us.  Don;t be alarmed those
public surveillance cameras and drnes and more AI machines to come -
will bring better law and more needed order.Big Brother cares about you.


--

Subject: Re: [Marxism] Gilroy, El Paso, Dayton: Why and What Next?


I think it is worth pointing out that the Dayton shooter was apparently
some sort of "leftist". He was also apparently very, very misogynistic. I
don't think that disqualifies him from the 

[Marxism] Samoa stands up for women in sports

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Another point overlooked by this contributor, who seems obsessed with the 
subject of gender reassignment.

this is the same Samoa HRPP government that is dominated by religious right 
wingers, also opposes rights and respect to Gays and Lesbians.

And the status of  "two spirit" people in Samoa, before the Christian invaders, 
probably does not help with Phil's views either.

Perhaps Phil should spend some effort to allow women to compete in "male 
sports" (who are better financially paid and provided better work conditions)
I know Lesbian athletes who would like to place "the lads" in their place!

==


A couple of additional points to the article.

NZ is historically the country that invaded, ruled and oppressed Samoa.

Hubbard's dad is a member of the NZ ruling class and one of the country's
richest people.

https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frdln.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F07%2F20%2Ftiny-samoa-starts-a-big-ripple-for-women-in-sports%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cfea2750c847a4b4ace5e08d70cb4860f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636991841790704501sdata=XBSSBybWrbeXygwz%2F8sTLvu6PMzzeDAzu42huNGQJjE%3Dreserved=0

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Re: [Marxism] Bisbee ’17 | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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As Louis, I have not viewed this film, but it is my understanding that a number 
of Bisbee strikers,
were forceably marched by foot during the hot daylight hours  through the 
desert and not placed
only on railraod animal stock cars?






For those who missed the chance to see “Bisbee ‘17” last year because
you lived in places where it was not being shown or because, like me,
you simply let it slip by, there is very good news. This documentary
about an IWW-led strike of copper miners in the company town of Bisbee,
Arizona was recently added to Amazon, iTunes, and other VOD services. It
is a story very relevant to the period we are living in today. When
workers went on strike for higher wages and better working conditions in
July 1917, a posse organized by the bosses at Phelps-Dodge and the local
authorities rounded up the strikers and deported them to Hermanas, New
Mexico in railroad cattle cars, just like Jews being sent to Auschwitz.
Once the 1,300 miners arrived in New Mexico, they were housed in tents
originally intended for use by Mexican refugees, who took refuge in the
USA in order to avoid the Mexican army’s scorched earth tactics against
Pancho Villa. As should be obvious, not much has changed since 1917.

full: 
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flouisproyect.org%2F2019%2F07%2F05%2Fbisbee-17%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C4e66cf50a7804cc31e2808d7016344aa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636979398170332893sdata=nHYNHM%2BTarlkLd%2FNBxw%2FSbN9yhM5wWqq1NSTem48dpY%3Dreserved=0

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[Marxism] Stonewall Rebellion by a participant

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Here are the links this week to the BBC radio and television program on my 
participation in the Stonewall Rebellion.
There were ten million viewers including many in a number of Africa nations.


The radio programme is 
here:https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csyx49


and the TV is here: 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07f3mvf



Here are two podcasts by the anarchist Working Class  History site on the 
Stonewall Rebellion, that have more Class content from me.

They have a good number of events and people that might interest those on this 
site to add awareness on.


https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fworkingclasshistory.com%2F2019%2F05%2F13%2Fe21-22-the-stonewall-riots-and-pride-at-50%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1TwWXQ9VpmVeYz9vBxuU7W0d6jkAHKNVpudcX2a3WA1SOkc6rRDTA277U=AT3L_B7dYurcPCvLHarvdq2XanjnJ22X7lDFwNym8OLyagYoldD2yVGhK-QEeKqU6NbW66o85PmcJR0kE2hjL7QbCLMHJYGOSSZhubs1PbCYIU82oyvhkwHuPHcCXZThmwYGY1qnV3o49Ge6xlj_nlKL1sOq8i06reJqxhFp7m3TWIf0ZNFJmP0s3WJLzmYBqyeg5lWrKAumCuZHKLW6rSgu6zmzqaMnNsYRNFfPOwcoD5M3T4O0nTEtq9JJJvlzO6xuDnY0kg0V_DBWios-V6sBC3U-_einhWTO6tUvoezcG9FlIK84v3hgVBkM2iz_EXVTQdkSXRxHqGwOCK-R__h9KeUe2uic8IVZ_V6HoPFpUF8sgzkamhjApvLU-lPRa4T8I1DBHin9RV-O4rVDsrr2v9pT09Qu6uiauFfWAzuyedAcVHY_6Pq2K9S3qpP-suwhRfCJqPXXL-PN6xX9KMSLjKlgPQn1ADGCPAEHcc7tyb4tq00zAZ5CqyCFfdT18AKCawtkk0YbJ29BQgju8c05XnWHBJ_Vgi7O2yv2gRa0FSMhr-4R13kVDQLzpb8iHgZ_BR2MYuHMhBMjB4DNAxxHu5e3eA1RhJZ4cIuG4kfLCFl7LNYgFFZxDjekX5uVRdi6jUTXhS6Do12IDYE



And unlike the false previous listings recently on the Activists and Scholars 
in Marxist Tradition by people who were not  actual participants in the 
Stonewall Rebellion,
on who was there and what happened - this weekend the Gay City News based in 
New York Citym exposes those reports and others as false, that mentions my 
participation as a founder of the Gay Liberation Front and a marxist.

https://www.gaycitynews.nyc/stories/2019/15/david-carter-stonewall-2019-06-27-gcn.html?fbclid=IwAR0Udmwq_O6dlXAEQbFc4XTIxzJkW0ixk6Zvu2Mh2vpo99iKqqfWXPb0rC8




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[Marxism] Remembering lesbians in the lesbian and gay liberation movement

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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As a leading participant in the Stonewall Rebellion - this article has many 
inaccuries

seems just another effort by Ferguson at promoting transphobia.








Excellent piece by veteran lesbian, trade union and socialist activist Ann
Menasche.  Also sets the record straight re Stonewall riots.

https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frdln.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F06%2F02%2Fremembering-lesbians-in-lesbian-and-gay-liberation%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C3be6e572fe9b423bd8ad08d6e6fafae2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636950362949649787sdata=EwohbEuI2Xd0LXHfBMH3cKEWDw6ZiZDJL259H71RitI%3Dreserved=0

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[Marxism] The Enduring Horror of Chernobyl

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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https://newrepublic.com/article/154024/enduring-horror-chernobyl?utm_source=newsletter_medium=email
[https://images.newrepublic.com/72fa3c630f8b991936ba7d1351cf790a605bbf30.jpeg?w=1109=577=faces=crop=jpg]
The Enduring Horror of Chernobyl | The New 
Republic
>From the beginning, viewers of HBO’s miniseries Chernobyl know more than the 
>characters themselves about what’s to come—like Titanic, its very name is a 
>spoiler.And so the opening scenes are ...
newrepublic.com



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Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The Star of David is a symbol that represents Jewry, it was long before the 
present State of Israel.
Netanyahua is Jewish - but does not represent ALL Jews presently, or through 
the ages.
The image on that dog, was not the State of Israel flag, it was a symbol traced 
to 1,600 years ago and used to symbolize those identified as religious faith 
Jews.

Do I sense anti-Jew themes and messages in that sketch and tragically in much 
else being oozed out - Yes I do!
Am I sensitive about bigotry and hate - yes and as should we all.

Anti-Semitism against Jews and Arabs, is on the rise.  I see it on the internet 
and I hear it from those who think that I would be receptive to hate.

What do you mean when you write in denial response: "I'll admit the Trump 
skullcap is sketch but" - the wording is not clear -
do you mean this was indeed anti-Jewish?  (It clearly was) and you now 
recognize that .   If so, is that not enough and the "but" is not needed to 
dilute this?

The religious head piece is called a Yamika.   Trump is not blind - or being 
tricked/deceived by "clever Jews".  Trump is not even Jewish to my knowledge.
One of his daughters is - so he therefore is under "suspicion".

The drawing was offensive to many - accept that - and perhaps learn more WHY 
this sketch is viewed that way - due to a history of oppression.
The NY Tmes did not first apologize and only changed when staff quit and 
negative blowback.  Do you start to get why this cartoon is wrong and hate?

.
I'll admit the Trump skullcap is sketch but the other elements really
aren't. It sounds like the AJC and the Times (and fellow comrades) are
splitting hairs so as to read in anti-Semitic themes in what is plainly a
cartoon about Netanyahu leading an idiot President. I do not see anything
anti-Jewish about depicting Netanyahu or Israel as America's attack-dog.

That Nazis and others use such imagery for their own nefarious reasons
should not be a reason to read it in to anti-Zionist art, which was the
thrust of the concern voiced in HuffPost.



On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 12:57 AM mkaradjis . via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> "And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?"
>
> I think it suggests that America is being run by a Jew, and that's why it
> is so strongly supportive of Israel.
> I usually agree with Amith on these issues, but I think here the cartoon is
> pretty disgusting.
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ken Hiebert via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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> >
> > I don’t know what the cartoonist intended, but the cartoon has problems.
> > There is a distinction to be made if you want to indicate Israel with a
> > Star of David.  On the Israeli flag it appears between two bars.  By
> itself
> > it might indicate Israel or it might simply indicate someone or something
> > Jewish.
> > If you want to indicate Israel, why not use the flag?
> >
> > And the yarmulke on Trump’s head, what point does that make?  How does
> > that help anyone to understand the relationship between the US and
> Israel?
> >
> > ken h
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Marxism] Huffington Post: New York Times Apologizes For Anti-Semitic Cartoon In International Edition

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I found the cartoon to have troubling symbolage with the use of the Star of 
David and the Yamika on Trump, as being anti-Jewish.
It follows a historical usage of anti-Jew hatred.   Those as myself who are not 
of Jewish ancestry, need to be aware and sensitive to
how such images and messages, are used to spread hate.   That the Star of David 
was used by zionist to promote their state and views,
is to suggest that other symbols used by one segment or sector of another 
identity group - represents ALL of that group.

I am no fan of any organized religion.  Too often myelf been attaked by 
religious fanatics, but I understand the difference of one or a
group, as for the whole ancestry of a people and those with religious beliefs, 
being ALL bad and an enemy and to be feared and hated.
It is why I oppose zionism and all forms of wrong misplaced superiority over 
others.

I took the time to learn about history of injustice - and hate and fear of 
those "different".  As a atheist, I will wear a Star of David,
or another symbol, if a way to show resistance to wrong and of usually 
religious based intolerance, focused on those "different".





As usual, anti-Semitism conflated with anti-Zionism by arguing some sort of
vague rhetorical similarity. NYT's apology is simply an extension of the
paper's regular Zionist and anti-Arab & anti-Muslim propaganda.

Amith R. Gupta

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Re: [Marxism] The Prophet Perverted

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Truly disgusting to find this current Jacobin article, complainig that Trotsky 
was portrayed as "effemenite"
as if there is something very wrong with being "effemenite" (not "a real normal 
man").


https://jacobinmag.com/2019/02/trotsky-show-netflix-antisemitism-stalin

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[Marxism] The Cuban counter-revolution shows its face

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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There is no independent LGBT Movement permitted by the Cuban CP and
government, while the anti-communist Roman Catholic Church and the
various other reactionary religious  groupings, are allowed to function
independently.  Limitations are placed on queer organizing and assembling
for empowerment, but not the Ancient forces of reactonary thought.

And the left apologists and deniers, of years of homophobia and heterosexism
that were carried out by the Castro regime, continue with their shameful
denials and bigotry.   History will not absolve that, or those who justified
and denied the crimes of Stalin.  One can politically trace the similarities
and loss of humanity, by the "loyal party defenders".

Only Gay and Lesbian people organizing for empowerment and to end
the historic isolation imposed, to allow discrimination and prejudice,
will create the needed changes.  This has been the case in every nation
and peoples throughout history.
-

Not a difficult question to answer, in my opinion, since Cuba is a small
island in a world thoroughly dominated by capitalist ideology and
reactionary institutions. It's better that these ideas are now being
publicly aired, debated and combated in the course of a broad debate on the
new constitution, rather than being suppressed and driven underground to
fester.

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 12:05 PM John Reimann via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:


> ...ask ourselves how it is that these evangelical religious fanatics
> could get any sort of base in a country that overthrew capitalism
> generations ago..

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[Marxism] Page from Karl Marx's manuscript sold for 523, 000 USD - China Plus

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The Marx and Engels manuscript pages were likely stolen from the International 
Institute of Social History in Amsterdam Netherlands


http://chinaplus.cri.cn/news/china/9/20180522/134465.html

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Re: [Marxism] Nick Brana on the midterms

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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For More Accuracy - around 70 of the candidates that the DSA emdorsed - won 
this week.
And the numbers for the other groups including Our Revolution,  Move On, 
Indivisible, Swing Left, Bros for America,  Working Families, etc, etc.
greatly differs with this article.

I will have some other thoughts about voting rights in the U. S. posted 
separate - but want to agree on the actual control of the Democrati Party
is by the wealthy, to serve the capitalist class - but that the growing class 
conscience aware radicalization that is happening - are expressed by
the elections held this week - and reveal the lack of actual democracy in the 
U. S., with no sincere effort or caring to respect every voter and to
count all votes fairly.








Posted by Paul Street on FB:

Next neat reflection on midterms...As Nick Brana, the former Sanders
staffer who heads the Movement for a People’s Party, noted one day after
the elections, the results are “a serious wake-up call for progressives”
who continue to dream of gaining power by taking over the Democratic
Party. By Brana’s account:

“The four leading progressive organizations that emerged from Bernie
Sanders’ 2016 presidential campaign endorsed Democratic candidates
across 46 states. Nearly all of the candidates for Congress, governor,
lieutenant governor, and Senate lost….Our Revolution, Justice Democrats,
Brand New Congress and the Democratic Socialists of America endorsed a
combined 107 candidates for Congress this year. Forty-four of them won
their primaries and only 12 won their general elections. Five of those
12 were already incumbents. Five more of them were longtime party
politicians in line for higher office, rather than insurgent candidates.
Only two of them were actually opposed by the party and unseated
establishment Democrats in the primaries — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and
Ayanna Pressley. There are 435 members of Congress.”

“Almost every candidate those groups endorsed for governor, lieutenant
governor, and Senate, lost in the primary or the general election. That
includes 13 candidates for governor, five candidates for lt. governor,
and seven candidates for U.S. Senate. Incumbents Bernie Sanders and
David Zuckerman were the only ones who won. Several candidates were
high-profile individuals who raised millions of dollars: progressives
such as Ben Jealous, Cynthia Nixon and Abdul El-Sayed. Others such as
Andrew Gillum and Stacy Abrams took millions from big donors.”
“As a result, the blue wave is a corporate wave that has swept in the
same kind of Democratic politicians that drove working people into
Donald Trump’s arms after eight years of Obama. When Democrats busy
themselves serving the wealthy again, the result will be an even sharper
lurch to the authoritarian right.

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[Marxism] 'It’s never going to be normal': California city in shock after gunman kills 12 | US news | The Guardian

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Some things to provide context:

1 - This suburb area  residents are mainly reactionary

2 - The schools of Peperdine and Lutheran Universities are dominated by 
evangelical conservatives

3 - Country Western Music mainly attracts right wingers in this part of 
Southern California

4 - Now view above with those shot that provides more full picture


"What you sow.is what you reap"




Charles Davis, who usually writes about Syria and Red-Brown politics,
reports from Thousand Oaks.

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Re: [Marxism] Democrats and Trump

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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It is very revealing about when people in New York City with financial resources
are suggesting that most people across the U. S. with little funds and with 
much more
difficulty to travel outside their region - should hold a national protest in 
Washington DC.

Is it to lobby the Congress or effect president Trump?
Or to sell subscriptions to some publication or books?
Or to help sales at museum gift shops?

If you really want average working people to participate, and continue after 
the event,
then it should be locally held across the U. S. instead.   Some people have 
children
and other family members to take care of, that do not allow them to travel great
distances, should they even have funds to do so, and many do not.

It is important to organize and involve people locally - to build a left in the 
hundreds
of communities where there is a too small organied left.  And it is important 
to build a
movement of working people who are not with funds to take airplanes and stay in
hotels, eat out, etc  What kind of left does one envision, if events are only 
for the
better off financially?

The democratic party operatives focus is to lobbying and identifying with those 
in
government and not with identifying and organizing working people for their own
interests.  If the goal is to build a unified left - not tailing after 
bourgeois liberal
politicians (whose goals are to end independent movements and serve the rulers),
then start to do that by ones actions - and that includes organizing and 
welcoming
poor working people.

Among the radicalizing millemials, are those with limited funds and who have 
family
members and friends who can and need to be involved and change the often narrow
U. S. left, to actually reflect the U. S. working class.  Local actions in Los 
Angeles where
I reside, have been larger in numbers than those held in Wasgington DC, the 
past few
years.   And it is not just getting someone to participate in a protest but to 
continue
their involvement in groups and becoming more aware of the system and our 
history
of working people, who challenged and changed things.It was not the 
politicians.





A centralized demonstration in Washington DC would be positive, but I think
that localized protests are more important at this stage. There are all
sorts of local movements, some of which actually involve layers of working
class people. For instance, I know in Colorado that there is an
anti-fracking movement of this nature. Here in Oakland, although working
class people, including youth, are largely uninvolved in most protests,
still some are. More importantly, having local protests - all on the same
day - would make it easier and more natural to actually get out into the
working class communities, the working class schools (including community
colleges) and actually to the work places to start to at least start a
dialog with our class. It might not pay off immediately, but it's the
ground work that is absolutely, vitally necessary and - let's admit it - is
simply not being done on any serious scale.

Then there's another issue: I think socialists should call for the protests
to be held during regular work hours and to involve civil disruption. In
other words, to call for workers to walk off their jobs. That then
indirectly starts to raise the issue of a political strike. This, in turn,
will run us head long up against the union leadership... which is purely a
good thing.

I make this last point having had some experience with this. Back around
2009 or so, there was a call for a one-day protest around education issues
here in Oakland. Thousands of students walked out of their schools. In the
coalition organizing for this, a debate arose whether to hold the main
protest during the day or after work hours. All those who didn't want a
conflict with the union leadership supported the second option. At the end
of the day, we won out and held it during the day and into the afternoon.
But I think it was vitally important to have that debate and to get the
majority in favor of calling it during work hours. It was equally important
to have Oakland's working class  youth (overwhelmingly youth of color) at
the center of the event.

John Reimann
--

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Re: [Marxism] How to ranching right

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Like "Clean Coal", "Good Nuclear Power" and "Sports Hunting"

this "Regenerative Ranching" is a similar promoted concept by the industry that 
benefits financially from.

Did David notice who sponsored this corporate propaganda - a meat company!


It is scientific fact -  not conjecture - that the CO2 emissions by cattle and 
hogs, are a major contributor to Climate Change.

I unfortunately remain a meat eater but have reduced my consumption and 
eliminated many forms of meat from my diet.

Here are some of the sites that came up in my internet search for  CO2 
emissions by cattle.




  *
Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars 
...
www.independent.co.uk › Environment 
› Climate 
Change

Environment > Climate Change Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 
from cars ... the world's rapidly growing herds of cattle as the greatest 
threat to the climate, forests and wildlife ...

  *
Are cows the cause of global warming? | Time for 
change
https://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat...

A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. 
Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2). But the negative effect 
on the climate of Methane is 23 times higher than the effect of CO2.

  *
Overview of Greenhouse Gases | Greenhouse Gas (GHG 
...
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/overview-greenhouse-gases

Carbon dioxide (CO 2) is the primary greenhouse gas emitted through human 
activities.In 2016, CO 2 accounted for about 81.6% of all U.S. greenhouse gas 
emissions from human activities. Carbon dioxide is naturally present in the 
atmosphere as part of the Earth's carbon cycle (the natural circulation of 
carbon among the atmosphere, oceans, soil, plants, and animals).

  *
Methane emissions from cattle are 11% higher than 
...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/29/methane...

“Cows belching less methane may not be as eye-catching as wind turbines and 
solar panels, but they are just as vital for addressing climate change.” Global 
carbon emissions stood still in 2016




“A Regenerative Secret” is a powerful mini-documentary that breaks the
thinking that cows are the problem. Contrasting the catastrophe of the
current cattle industry with the hopeful and inspiring paradigm of
Regenerative Ranching. This emerging form of ranching is not only restoring
ecosystems but also reversing global warming and helping ranchers across
the world become more prosperous.


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Re: [Marxism] The Unknown Citizen

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I met Auden just after he spoke before the United Nations General Assembly.

He met a group of Gay activists, that I was among at Columbia University, where 
he attended the Gay People at Columbia group.

Auden then signed up as a member.  He became an official Gay activist and at 
that time, one of the most prominent.  But neither

the corporate media or the left media, took note then of that.


Unlike apparently the Berkeley gathering, (who knows what was said to him  
before he took the stage there),

we Gay acivists were thrilled to have him attend on his final years of life,  
Gay activist gatherings and events.


And on this day with a growing class awareness in the U. S. and upsurge of 
resistance by laborers, with growing strikes

and organizing drives across the United States, with teachers and hotel workers 
in many cities, let me share this Auden quote

that reflects what many of the laboring class daily experience:


 One cannot walk through an assembly factory and not feel that one is in Hell.  
- W. H. Auden



Michael Meeropol

Auden was a centennial scholar at Swarthmore the year I graduated
--- supposedly, he had been a "visitor" there back in the 40s and
had made quite an impression.  An English Professor at the time
(1963 maybe), gave a lecture entitled Auden at Swarthmore -- aside
from being a great poet (I liked "Muse des Beaux Artes" myself) he
seemed like a heluva character!

heluva character! For example, in the mid- or late-fifties I was
part of a packed SRO audience in Wheeler Hall at UC Berkeley who had
come to hear Auden. There was considerable delay, and rising murmur,
until Robert Penn Warren, then chair of the English Department,
emerged from the wings to introduce Auden. He mentioned that they
had just come from dinner at Penn Warren's home. Then several more
minutes elapsed until Auden came out, obviously pissed. He fussed
with some papers on the lighted lectern, started to read and then
called twice for more light. Wheeler Hall is a comfortable old place
with an array of props, so quickly several vintage floor lamps
appeared behind him. He started to read again but he was obviously
bibulously blind, and incoherent. US Berkeley audiences are not
forgiving, and quickly the hall was virtually empty. Someone loudly
whispered, "He's past it." I assumed he meant for the evening and
not in terms of his career. I wondered. A wasted evening, except for
memorable spectacle.


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[Marxism] The New York City DSA's infantile, sectarian criticism of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I must disagree with comrade Bustelo on this.


Seems to me the NewYork DSA, did the correct thing on issuing what was a needed 
public statement, to disagree

with the recent public political statements of AOC's support, for some awful 
politician candidates for public office.


It seems a compromise in with what was written and what was not.

I was taken back with AOC's comments made around the war criminal and 
reactionary Arizona U. S. John McCain's deat,

in describing him with words that were offensive and promoted thus U. S 
militarism.  He was not a humanitarian!


The DSA New York City Statement made clear that no member was above the 
political principles of that organzization.

This was an important statement reflecting the changes that have occured in the 
DSA, since breaking with the Second

International, over such opportunism and  collusion with capitalism.  She was 
not expelled that also reflects the difference

the DSA is from the groups, that claim they welcome different views among its 
members and never do.


But OAC is a public figure and what she says publicly does matter when 
discussing key DSA and socialist principles.




 From my blog:

The most troubling thing is that this statement reeks of factionalism,
of people being lined up in some private little group built around an
important “principle” like we must “name our enemy,” or that DSA members
“who seek to speak on behalf of working people” must defend X, Y, or Z
position. And it is a very transparent attempt to drive AOC out of the
organization.
. 

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Re: [Marxism] Freedom and the Irish | Current Affairs

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I find this article offensive and poorly researched about Irish people's 
history and political involvement.


Did the moderator actually read this?


Appears some academic wanting to show how much she knows. but reveals actually 
she knows very little.

She distorts and omits much to justify her not identifying as Irish.  But her 
ancestry were with the oppressors

so there is some understanding of why she promotes privilege and does not want 
to identify with the history

of the Irish masses.



She states her opposition to "identity politics" and knows or cares little 
about her attacking Irish Americans

as being most reactionary - with no mention of the Catholic Church or her own 
Protestant Church influence

to accept and adapt and comply to the U. S. rulers.  She herself has adapted 
and conformed with this article

that does no service or provide any awareness to those interested in a free 
Irish workers state and the

history of those with Irish ancestry who continued,and continue, to resist 
injustice, as part of "their heritage"











From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 5:54 AM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] Freedom and the Irish | Current Affairs



(Gerald Horne covers these distinctions in great depth in "The
Apocalypse of Settler Colonialism")

There was a sharp social division between Montserrat’s predominately
Irish laboring class and the English and Anglo-Irish planters who
governed the island. Still more Irish arrived in Montserrat starting in
1649, when the armies of Oliver Cromwell, then Lord Protector of
England, defeated the rebelling Irish Catholic gentry, and the English
government began deporting political prisoners to the Caribbean. Other
Irish criminals and so-called “sturdy beggars” were transported to the
island, too, as a penal measure. Unlike other Irish bonded laborers, who
“voluntarily” sold their freedom for a period of years, these deportees
were sent to the New World against their will. On arrival, the
prisoners’ labor was purchased for a specific period of time, usually
for 10 to 12 years. Though this term of indenture was long, it was, at
the very least, finite. The same could not be said for the African
chattel slaves who began to be imported around the same time. They had
virtually no hope of earning or waiting out their freedom.

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[Marxism] Modi govt silent as Indian media hails court ruling to decriminalise gay sex

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/south-asia/modi-govt-silent-as-indian-media-hails-court-ruling-to-decriminalise-gay-sex


Modi govt silent as Indian media hails court ruling to decriminalise gay sex

NEW DELHI • Indian media - including several conservative outlets - yesterday 
hailed a Supreme Court ruling to decriminalise gay sex, while highlighting a 
"deafening" silence from Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu nationa-list 
government.

Banner front-page headlines such as "Love at first right", "Rainbow nation" and 
"Independence day" greeted the verdict of the top court to strike down the 
heart of Section 377, a law introduced by the British rulers in 1861.

Many said the five justices may have opened the door to demands for greater 
civil rights for long-marginalised gays and lesbians, including same-sex 
marriage.

The conservative Hindu newspaper called the verdict "a reaffirmation of the 
right to love" and "a welcome departure from centuries of 'hetero-normative' 
thinking".

The judges had "furthered the frontiers of personal freedom and liberated the 
idea of personal rights from the pressure of public opinion," it added in an 
editorial.

The Hindustan Times warned that the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender 
community will still face condemnation from their families and colleagues.

"Harassment and violence will continue to occur," it warned.

"But if the long legal battle and the courage of queer people and communities 
are anything to go by, this fight for equal rights will not end. It will grow 
even stronger now that even the apex court has said there is no going back."

Amid pictures of celebrating activists, Google India put out a rainbow flag on 
its homepage and Facebook changed its display picture to a multi-hued icon. The 
United Nations and rights activists around the world gave Twitter support to 
the Supreme Court ruling. But Mr Modi's right-wing government has yet to make a 
comment on the ruling.

Mr Modi's administration had initially opposed dismantling Section 377, though 
in July, government lawyers said they would give in to the "wisdom" of the top 
court.

Justice D.Y. Chandrachud said the government should have taken a categorical 
stand one way or the other instead of being ambivalent, the Hindu newspaper 
reported the judge as saying.

The Indian Express daily said the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party's (BJP) silence 
on the issue was "deafening" and "deceptive".

India's main opposition Congress and other small regional parties have welcomed 
the verdict.

The BJP's ideological Hindu nationalist backer, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh 
(RSS), said it does not consider homosexuality a crime, but it did not support 
same-sex relations.

"Traditionally, Indian society does not accept such relations," it said in a 
statement.

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE


Related Story
India's top court reviews homosexuality 
ban

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Re: [Marxism] Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, superstar -- and what Engels would have said about her

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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"Most everybody goes to college".   Just not true and out of touch with the 
working poor.


As one who never finished high school and as just one of many in my poor Harlem 
New Yook City working class community, in the 1960's -

today the high school drop out rate in the poor Los Angeles working class 
communities that I reside in - is fifty percent.


And for those not aware, that not all high schoold graduates go to college and 
even fewer graduate from.


"Most people who want a profession" - really nice to state - shows how one 
identifies with those who physically labor

for economic Class reasons and often racism, are consigned to those  
"non-professional' positions to be super expoited and discarded broken

in body and spirit.  And I am not speaking of reigious superstition and usage 
of mythical gods - in the meaning of "spirit", for those whose

language on this site mentions "god" in their writings and observations.



"Education has been cheapened", so states the same person - the reality is 
education, was always limited or unavailable to laborers, to limit
their knowledge and being more resistant to rulers and exploitation.  Those who 
were provided any awareness were most often due to huge
struggles by working people seeking better for their children.  Women and 
People of Color and poor ethnic caucasians viewed as lower on the
pecking order of who was "cultured and worthy" , were often denied any 
education, or the most limited to spend their lives in service to
"their masters".   WASP males of  land and wealth sons received "education" for 
their future "position". In my high school of only working poor's
children, there were only outdated "trades" to learn and no offer for any 
"professional" white collar job.  We were all expendable and designated
by the working class communities we resided in - to manual labor.

It was a Class thing that you might have heard about?  Today only those numbers 
required for operating any technical skills are given
a education limited only to operate but not encouraged to think critically or 
learn history.  And many are needed for those laboring
physical jobs that all on this list rely on and benefit from - and should 
recognize that Class issue - and are not "lesser people" because
they use physical labor to survive, in this capitalist system of eploitation 
and injustice.  Dividing of wage laborers - as who is "better
and more educated", is the bosses benefit and game.  The wealthy only relented 
to provide any education to have those who labor for
them be able to carry out their tasks with that limited knowledge and skill.  
Never to advance the working class - but to benefit the rulers.





From: Marxism  on behalf of David McDonald 
via Marxism 
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 1:26 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, superstar -- and what Engels 
would have said about her

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Most millemials go to college. Most everybody goes to college. There are
about 30,000,000 people between 18 & 24 and around 20,000,000 will go to
college at any one time. Most people who want a profession are forced to
have at least a master's degree through competition if not outright
requirements. Education has been supersized while simultaneously cheapened
intellectually, in a gigantic new tithe. God help the kid who gets to 18
without a sure sense of what she wants to do and what education she needs
to buy to do it with. And who the fuck has that? Nobody tells kids the
truth.
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Re: [Marxism] Debs Blog update (18-04)

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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David,


I hope you will consider including Debs relationships with his Gay and Lesbian 
friends.

Debs was not hetero.  He was bisexual.


I raised this with the other man working on this book and he responded in a 
nasty

all-knowing  attitude that he knew all about  Debs - and this could not be!


He even stupidly said that Debs was married to a woman (and when I gave some

facts - he refused to consider.)   He said Debs had a daughter (who was 
adopted) -

I said Harry Hay had a biological daughter and both Oscar Wilde and Abe Lincoln

also had two sons - so what?


Debs was friends with several openly Gay men - and traveled to spend time with 
them:

James Riley, Horace Traubel and what should be most obvious in his association 
with

the Altoona PA department store owner.   Debs never met but liked both Jack 
London

and Oscar Wilde's writings.  Among his Lesbian friends (non-sexual) was Frances 
Willard

the then leader of the WCTU).


That Debs at lest showed no hostility to Gays and Lesbians and was not 
supportive of

the religious haters, would be something nice to include .


John



From: Marxism  on behalf of DW via Marxism 

Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 9:22 AM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] Debs Blog update (18-04)

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Got another update of the Debs blog if you wanna skim it...

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdebsproject.org%2F2018%2F02%2F24%2Fminers-massacres-and-math-18-04%2F=02%7C01%7C%7Cacb84dc908c24dd666e408d57bab52fd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636550898110760314=9d0flIQThuO9lQLEuMbB4ZUmRH2b0h0ot1pqcAISZr4%3D=0


tim
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[Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Just trying to raise awareness here - and understand in the context of

this being a large capitalist corporation that needs to be expropriated and

kingdoms and militarism promotion ended - and the description "superb"

not shared by all, in its lacking for the LGBT fans.


Marvel and Disney corporate heads once again betrayed their promises  to include

same sex sex gender characters.  There was created in the original script that 
one of the

major characters be a Lesbian.  After the art and writing were done, Marvel 
heads withdrew

this and ordered the character to be straight.


So while the film has important long overdue "firsts" that raises visibility 
and some good

progressive themes, there has been left disappointment with Marvel not keeping 
their promise

to be inclusive for Black same sex gender fans and other viewers.


When I was a kid, there were only "official" straight role models, including in 
comics, even

though I could "interpret" that Wonder Woman and those male super heroes in 
tights and

colorful costumes living alone with their same sex younger partners, were not 
the patriarchal

hetero nuclear family promoted model.




I grew up in the 1990s and so the span of Marvel Comics that were part of
my childhood, as well as the several cartoons, were pretty different than
what we have been getting since the first IRON MAN from Marvel Studios.
Marvel was always extremely high on both the melodrama and the social
justice parables, sometimes to the extent of being unbearable. My frame of
reference for the canon therefore is including that stuff. Indeed since
Marvel Studios emerged, it has been pretty obvious that Marvel and DC  have
effectively switched roles, now it is DC-based films like the Batman
pictures and Superman with all the pathos while Marvel is pretty bubblegum
in comparison.

Speaking specifically about the Panther titles, Ta-Nehisi Coates has been
writing it for the past several years and the result have been interesting.

--
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart



Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:41:13 -0800
From: DW 
To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition

Subject: Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film,
Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It
Message-ID:

[Marxism] ] Fwd: Ravings Of A Radical Vagabond » Blog Archive » An Investigation into Red-Brown Alliances:Third Positionism, Russia, Ukrai ne, Syria, and the Western Left

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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While the source of these two blogs - appear the same single person - and a 
very questionable source "radical vagabound"

(what leftist would use Manhattan skylines of corporate buildings as their 
central images - and there being two different

people identifying with such doing that and not the obvious same person - how 
likely is that either?)


Sadly there are ample examples in recent times of people who "identify" as 
leftists, with no regards for Gays or Women,

who made alliance with right wing religious fanatics, such as the stalinists 
with Khoemeni in Iran in 1979 and those

who liked Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda "fighting U. S. imperialsm" and the Sparts 
fond expressions for ISIS  - and of

those apologists for the Castro Regime allowance of the Roman Catholic Church 
entities in that nation. but not for

independent LGBT or Women groups and I remember the defeaning silence by U. S. 
leftists when Sojourners hostility

to Gay people and silence with Eldridge Cleaver's book Soul on Ice and the ISC 
supporting Cleaver as the Peace &

Freedom Party presidential candidate, etc., etc.


Opportunism and Tailism - are not new, but sadly efforts to make alliances with 
right wing sexists and homophobes are

fairly common by those whose "priorities" are always tactical and never 
principled, regarding sexual politics and rights.

The same sad unprincipled previous history of much of the U. S. left, was the 
case regarding the white racists labor

union members in the 19th and 20th Centuries against People of Color.


I personally witnessed people who identifythemselves as "leftists" who in 2003 
and since wanted to "work with"  John

Birchers (antiwar.com) and Larouchites (911 Conspiracy).   We see that with 
those who identify as "leftists and liberals"

who support U. S. CongresswomanTulsi Gabbard - who was long associated with a 
sexist/homophobic Hindu cult group.

Principles/Values often are not first or have any concerns for opportunists.   
I remember only a few years ago some on this

List, who were complaining about Peter Thatchell (and myself) as Gay activists, 
then "openly" condemning the Iran government

led by the "Supreme Leader" and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - as  our objectively 
supporting U. S. imperialism.  Some of same

who support known right wing jihadists groups in Syria, who claimed they were 
"revolutionaries"?   So lots of examples of

Red and Brown Coalition concepts - too many and all bad for non-hetero males.


When some people are more important and "with more social weight" as the Barnes 
Cult led SWP described it in 1974.

Now this same cult has in their current newspaper issue - rejoiced on the right 
wing Bundy family land owners being found

"not guilty" as armed terrorists.  Another current example of a Red and Brown 
Alliance Concept too?






From: Marxism  on behalf of Jim Farmelant 
via Marxism 
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ravings Of A Radical Vagabond » Blog Archive » An I nvestigation 
into Red-Brown Alliances:Third Positionism, Russia, Ukrai ne, Syria, and the 
Western Left


The temptation to enter into  red-brown alliances is one that has long existed 
and certainly a phenomenon that long precedes the period described in the 
article that Louis linked to. Marx & Engels warned against that sort of thing 
back in 1848 in the Manifesto, and they went through the experience of seeing 
their erstwhile comrade, Ferdinand Lassalle's attempt to form an alliance with 
Otto von Bismarck.

An exhaustive treatment of National Bolshevism, Larouche, Chossoduvsky,
et al.

 

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[Marxism] Oprah Winfrey’s Shameful Comparison of Black Women’s Jim Crow Era Rape

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The comrade's remarks are just lacking knowledge about Oprah Winfrey.

She was born and grew up in poverty in Mississippi under Jim Crow.  And most

people know this and that she was herself molested as a child and raped and

had a child that died while she a teenager in poverty.



Oprah Winfrey gave a wonderful inspiring speech at the Golden Globes.

The critique in general about how she urges adaption instead of total revolution

is legitimate concern, since she is no longer of the working class or views that

class as what is needed to make much needed change enacted to end exploitation

and destruction of all life on this planet.


But as a woman and a Black Woman, who has grown up in this patriarchal sexist

and racist society, she has every right to speak out and say what she did.  And

she knew Recy Taylor and brought that terrible violence to that woman, to the

nation's attention - that helped all women threatened with violence and abuse.


This is 2018, and it would be nice for self proclaimed progressive men to stop

declaring what oppression and to whom matters and that others do not. The

psychological and physical assault that many women face, are all horrible.


That poor disabled Black Lesbians have less power and support is clear, to

not only those who view themselves as Marxists, but to most people in general.

But no woman or man should be sexually assaulted, whether rich or poor.


And being raped or threatened with sexual assault is real for many and is

not to be dismissed or proclaimed "as less oppressive" than other deplorable

acts.  I left the YSA/SWP over its nonsense (That was insulting) when Jack

Barnes cult followers proclaimed Gays and Lesbians had "little social weight".


The same thinking about "comparing" oppression and not acknowledging it

was the patriarchal system that enforced women of all classes isolation and

all being potential sexual victims, even those with maids.  Because it was those

wealthy and powerful men who had control and carried out terror against

rich and poor women.  And yes some wealthy women condoned this for their

own financial and societal status (but not all) and yes rich women can hire

lawyers and might gain more voice and acknowledgement (but not all) and

many remained silent not because as the comrade wrongly writes, but as

Oprah Winfrey stated and has for many years - the fear of shame, rejection

and isolation, if they did not.


Psychological control is a major way to continue people oppressed and it

affects people across the class lines too!


I assume most men on this list want to get rid of the patriarchy and to

also reject bourgeois feminists like Hillary Clinton.  But socialist feminists

should not decry women in film and media and other professions with

more wealth and power than poor women and men wage workers,

being able to challenge and question the patriarchy.  Removing Roger

Ailes, Bill O'Reiley, Charlie Rose, Matt Laer, etc. from power does not

harm us poorer wage workers,  It weakens the patriarchy and thus

creates a more weakened institution and system - not a stronger one.


Class is the prime concern for us, but it should not be the only,

since ending capitalism does not end all sexism, racism, etc. and

ending patriarchy is a good thing!  Margaret Thatcher and Hillary

Clinton relied on the patriarchy for their own power and wealth.

Long overdue to have the Third Wave of Feminism sweep away

much needed foundations of oppression.  It will only lead to more

class awareness by women laborers who will not be satisfied with

the continuing inequality and oppression against them, due to

their status and exploitation.


Would this nation and world be better off if Oprah Winfrey did not

give that speech at the Golden Globes yesterday that was seen by

millions around the world, as the comrade's criticism seems to

suggest?   Keeping things as they were or only waiting for a class

revolution, is not the only options and it might seem irrelevant

or unimportant to the writer, but it is not and very real to many

others.  We will not have a successful needed revolution without

Women of Color's leadership and getting rid of the patriarchy.







I have to admit that I purposely ignored the Golden Globes and all of its
Hollywood Rich Women’s #MeToo moments. However, I was more than insulted
listening online this morning to Oprah compare the violent and brutal pain
of rapes and even murders that Black women endured by racist white men
during Jim Crow to that of rich white women in Hollywood and business.

The brutal gang rape of Recy Taylor by six white men in 

[Marxism] Thank you for another year of learning more on economics, history and political theory - Best Wishes

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I want to publicly thank Louis Proyect and the others who provide the Activists 
and Scholars in Marxist Tradition List

which I and others continue to benefit from, in learning further about economic 
and political theory and history.



Best Wishes for a New Year Ahead of Struggle!
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[Marxism] What is the Green Party missing?

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The main thing the Green Party in the United States is missing - is a 
democratic decision making membership structure

instead of presently many states structures based on small cliques and opposed 
to a mass membership.


Andrew's article overlooked this important aspect.   The CPUSA was also not a 
democratic decision making group,

or welcomed members holding different views and being critical thinkers - just 
"loyal followers".


This article's focus was more on opportunist tactical strategy and not the core 
problem of building a needed mass based

democratic decision making party of our Class.  Not just a few seeking personal 
power control and "making some political

points over their opponents in political Left currents", that historically are 
meaningless.


We have seen opportunism and tailism often.  We have seen numerous small 
arrogant elitist vanguard groups representing

a small leadership clique and substituting loyalty to them and how to "serve 
them", instead of the difficult but needed

task of organizing our Class (not just deciding what is politically acceptable 
to the "recognized leaders" who aspire to be

Lenin )   The 2017 United States is not 1917 Russia, or 1917 Untied States.


A mass based labor party is needed in the United States and the current Green 
Party "leaders" appear incapable of that,

in part because they are made up of religious pacifists, middle class artisans 
and professionals not wage laborers and a

mixture of old Stalinists from the CPUSA and COC.  The Green Party leaders are 
mainly older in age and not focused on

welcoming youth and allowing them to provide leadership.   Also the Rhode 
Island Green Party seems not representative

of most of the other Green Party state organizations that are self-electing 
small cliques.





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--
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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[Marxism] Posters I Would Like For My Collection

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Seeking to add to my collection on progressive world history memorabilia, these 
original

Very Gay Official Soviet Russian and Chinese Stalinist communist posters.

If anyone on this list has any of these please let me know.
These inspired many Gay proletarians in many lands - as intended?

http://m.imgur.com/gallery/de4tW
[https://i.imgur.com/8gaIzOd.jpg?fb]

These old Russian/Chinese communist propaganda posters look like a gay couples 
Vacation pictures
m.imgur.com
Imgur: The magic of the Internet




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[Marxism] Eric Blanc: The Ballot and the Break (the case of the Mn. Farmer-Labor Party).

[John Obrien via Marxism]

 the Trotskyists were expelled for attempting to undermine the 
Socialist Party of America, their open refusing to

abide by the decisions of the SPA National Convention and sole allegiance to 
the Fourth International grouping and for

the "Appeal" faction carrying out public disagreement with the SPA leadership 
in public press and gatherings.  The Socialist

Call editor Gus Tyler, wrote his faction's agreement with the "Altmanite" 
faction, to expel the Workers Party  members.


The factional havoc immobilized the SPA, with loss of most of their activist 
youth in YPSL joining the Workers Party

"Appeal" faction and the "Old Guard" forming then as well the Social Democratic 
Federation of America.  By 1940, the

SPA consisted of only a shell of the previous group with mainly pacifist 
members.  The CPUSA was then able to dominate

the U. S. left until the 1960's and the rest is history.   Who most benefited 
from this?  Not our class!


The momentary small gain in members for the Workers Party did not lead to 
anything.  Factional thinking was deepened

to be part of the culture of the U. S. SWP, in opposing different internal 
views and driving out anyone who thought and

did not conform.   "Democratic Centralism" was in name only - with only the 
centralist part promoted and reflects the

remaining personality cult membership today of the U. S. SWP.


Our class needs to get organized and that requires the current factionalized 
and ineffective left, being replaced with

new political formations.  My political judgment was to join the DSA, which I 
hope will become a major opponent to

capitalist attacks on our class and of our only planet's environment.  One can 
sit on the sidelines and complain, but that

may not change or affect anything.  I prefer to help promote class awareness 
and the need for working people to

organize against exploitation and injustice and this new DSA  seems the 
possible vehicle, with thousands more also

doing the same.  But if one only wants to have internal fights and not engage 
in long hard efforts to organize the

working class to defeat the capitalists, then stay outside.  But for the others 
in the United States who want to be effective -

DSA seems "where the action is".





From: Dennis Brasky <dmozart1...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 6:09 AM
To: John Obrien; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Eric Blanc: The Ballot and the Break (the case of the 
Mn. Farmer-Labor Party).

I'm not so certain that the "French turn" - entering the social democratic 
parties in the 1930s when they got an influx of young people new to radical 
politics and turned off by the ultraleftism of the Comintern' s "third period" 
- was a "sectarian mistake." Trotskyists in Spain refused to enter the Spanish 
social-democracy, so the Stalinists did and became a major force on the Left. 
The SWP entered the SP in 1936 - at the invitation of that party's leadership - 
and recruited its youth wing. The Trotskyists didn't split from the SP - they 
were expelled, a bureaucratic organizational maneuver to prevent them from 
politically winning over more of their ranks.

John asks - "How did the workers in France, the United States or elsewhere 
benefit with these weakened social democrat groups facing the fascists?" Let 
him answer - how did the workers of Germany in the late 1920s/early 1930s 
"benefit" from a strong Social-Democratic Party (SPD)? How did the working 
class of Europe "benefit" from their strong and unchallenged-from-the-left 
social-democrats between the years 1914 and 1918??? Social Democracy after WW1 
was not some new organization that sprang onto the scene without a thought-out 
program. It was a hardened counter-revolutionary force. If Rosa Luxemburg, Karl 
Liebknecht and all those German leftists murdered by rightists supported by the 
SPD in 1919 were here, they'd testify to that!

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:45 AM, John Obrien via Marxism 
<marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu<mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:

I recently joined DSA.  We do not need a "French Turn"  That was a sectarian 
destructive tactic that resulted in
only harming any needed effort for a large united left. This is an example of 
bad education promoted in the US SWP to justify their wrong approach that we 
often see being done by other more recent groups such as the  U. S. 
Sparticist League.

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Re: [Marxism] Eric Blanc: The Ballot and the Break (the case of the Mn. Farmer-Labor Party).

[John Obrien via Marxism]

spaper 
contained open attacks on the American

Labor Party and its endorsed candidates  which incited the other SPA factions 
and allowed the Altmanites faction to

win expulsion of the local Workers Party (SWP) at a August 9, 1937 SPA New York 
City Local Central Committee meeting .

Wholesale expulsions then took place nationally in the SPA.  Jack Altman, the 
SPA New York City Local Secretary (leader)

declared the Trotskyists were expelled for attempting to undermine the 
Socialist Party of America, their open refusing to

abide by the decisions of the SPA National Convention and sole allegiance to 
the Fourth International grouping and for

the Appeal faction carrying out public disagreement with the SPA ledership in 
public press and gatherings.  The Socialist

Call editor Gus Tyler wrote his faction's agreement with the "Altmanite" 
faction to expel the Workers Party  members.


The factional havoc immobilized the SPA, with loss of most of their activist 
youth in YPSL joining the Workers Party

"Appeal" faction and the "Old Guard" forming then as well the Social Democratic 
Federation of America.  By 1940, the

SPA consisted of only a shell of the previous group with mainly pacifist 
members.  The CPUSA was then able to dominate

the U. S. left until the 1960's and the rest is history.   Who most benefited 
from this?  Not our class!  The momentary

small gain in members for the Workers Party did not lead to anything.  
Factional thinking was deepened to become a

part of the culture of the then U. S. SWP in opposing different internal views 
and driving out anyone who thought and

did not conform.   "Democratic Centralism" was in name only - with only the 
centralist part promoted and that what

today the remaining cult membership of the current U. S. SWP is - where they 
promote "iconic leaders" and oppose

free thought and speech among even those professing loyalty of that group and 
their "dear leader".


Our class needs to get organized and that requires the current factionalized 
and ineffective left, being replaced with

new political formations.  My political judgment was to join the DSA, which I 
hope will become a major opponent to

capitalist attacks on our class and our only planet's environment.  One can sit 
on the sidelines and complain, but that

may not change or affect anything.  I prefer to help promote class awareness 
and the need for working people to

organize against exploitation and injustice and this new DSA  seems the logical 
vehicle with thousands of more also

doing the same.  But if one only wants to have internal fights and not organize 
the working class to defeat the capitalists,

then stay where you are.  But for the others in the United States who want to 
be effective - this is "where the action is".




The SWP held a non-authorized national conference of their faction

and rebuffed efforts of Norman Thomas's faction to compromise and stay 
together.  The CPUSA was then frantic in

lies about Trotsky and his supporters, as being all fascist agents and this was 
pressuring some of the SPA members.

There were



From: Dennis Brasky <dmozart1...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 6:09 AM
To: John Obrien; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Eric Blanc: The Ballot and the Break (the case of the 
Mn. Farmer-Labor Party).

I'm not so certain that the "French turn" - entering the social democratic 
parties in the 1930s when they got an influx of young people new to radical 
politics and turned off by the ultraleftism of the Comintern' s "third period" 
- was a "sectarian mistake." Trotskyists in Spain refused to enter the Spanish 
social-democracy, so the Stalinists did and became a major force on the Left. 
The SWP entered the SP in 1936 - at the invitation of that party's leadership - 
and recruited its youth wing. The Trotskyists didn't split from the SP - they 
were expelled, a bureaucratic organizational maneuver to prevent them from 
politically winning over more of their ranks.

John asks - "How did the workers in France, the United States or elsewhere 
benefit with these weakened social democrat groups facing the fascists?" Let 
him answer - how did the workers of Germany in the late 1920s/early 1930s 
"benefit" from a strong Social-Democratic Party (SPD)? How did the working 
class of Europe "benefit" from their strong and unchallenged-from-the-left 
social-democrats between the years 1914 and 1918??? Social Democracy after WW1 
was not some new organization that sprang onto the scene without a thought-out 
program. It was a hardened counter-revolutionary force. If Rosa Luxemburg, Karl 
Liebknecht and all those German leftists murdered by rightists supported by the 
SPD in 1919 were here, they'd testify to that!

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:45 AM, John Obrien v

[Marxism] Eric Blanc: The Ballot and the Break (the case of the Mn. Farmer-Labor Party).

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I recently joined DSA.  We do not need a "French Turn"  That was a sectarian 
destructive tactic that resulted in

only harming any needed effort for a large united left. This is an example of 
bad education promoted in the US SWP

to justify their wrong approach that we often see being done by other more 
recent groups such as the U. S. Sparticist League.

They oppose all other independent actions and movements - and counterpose their 
group as the only real choice. They remind

me of religious fanatics and not caring about our class but looking down with 
arrogance against all "not as aware as them".


Leon Trotsky was wrong in advocating a split, as he was on some other things, 
such as how he handled the awful murderous Stalin.

How did the workers in France, the United States or elsewhere benefit with 
these weakened social democrat groups facing the fascists?

Placing "the party" over the interests of the working class, is just bad 
politics for some ego insecurity to show "superiority" and being

so "smart" over working and building an effective left. Being isolated, "pure" 
and correct, is not what is needed.


After decades of "party building" since the failed 1970's - can we not learn 
that what must be done - is to build and educate - and

not just be arrogant and religious in approach - to show how knowledgeable we 
are.  You can stay in your little isolated and ineffective

vanguard parties that repeat the same mistakes, or learn we need a very 
different and better model and how to be effective for our

class and not just personal ego needs.


Help build a broad united effective left - and help share your knowledge and 
join with new and old comrades to create a better DSA.

To not be effective and isolated only benefits our class enemies.  Helping our 
class helps each other, whatever tactical differences that

we have.  We just do not have the time to wait for something better.  The 
capitalists and other fascist elements are not waiting but

carrying out exploitation and harm to our planet and all life on it.




From: Marxism  on behalf of Thomas via 
Marxism 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 7:02 PM


The criticism of the politics of the DSA is on point.

That said, the organization is very much alive and growing beyond expectation.

French Turn?

T


-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>Sent: Dec 4, 2017 9:45 PM
>To: Thomas F Barton 
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Eric Blanc: The Ballot and the Break (the case of 
>the Mn. Farmer-Labor Party).
>

>
>On 12/4/17 9:23 PM, DW via Marxism wrote:
>> Eric Blank goes "Dirty Break" on the Democrats using the Minn. Farmer-Labor
>> Party as an example...
>>   Or does he?
>>
>> The Ballot and the Break
>> By Eric Blanc 
>> 
>>
>> Minnesota’s Farmer-Labor Party, the most successful labor party in US
>> history, is rich in lessons for challenging the two-party system.
>>
>>
>Blanc digs into historical minutiae like the slogan for a democratic
>dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry, and now Farmer-Labor
>candidates running in the DP (and Republican, I believe) primaries
>without connecting them to the present-day. No wonder Jacobin runs the
>article because they are steeped in DSA inside-outside crapola. If Blanc
>was serious about the relevance of this, he'd connect it to the DSA's
>neo-Fabian politics.
>_
>

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[Marxism] Australia: big yes vote for gay marriage rights in postal plebiscite

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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What a poor weak political understanding and lack of analysis on the real 
problems

that are currently in very much form, to continue heterosexism and homophobia.


It would be great if the capitalist rulers really supported LGBT concerns that

includes ending the hetero patriarchy, as this article incorrectly implies - 
but they

do not.  They want a controlled compliant second class same gender sexers,

in part because of backward religious based prejudice and in part because

segments make money promoting heterosexuality and baby making and of

inheritance that transfers/continues wealth, inequality and class privileges.


Marriage Equality provides some important benefits that heterosexuals long

had and denied to same gender sexers, even finally recognized by some of the

very backward layers of  identified left political currents.  But this victory 
in

Australia, is due to the growing influence and effects of the LGBT Movement

(which sadly received no acknowledgement or clear support in this statement,

reflecting a major weakness of this poor analysis and evaluation).


No mention and criticism that a minority trying to secure equal rights had to

endure a vote of the hetero identified majority, to have access to such rights

and benefits. The capitalist rulers will always prefer accommodating with the

religious forces to keep the oppressive heterosexist patriarchial society, for

their continuing "business as usual".  They do not support reparations for

institutional government and religious theft and violence against same sexers.


Many were hoping that this referendum would fail, "to keep things the same"

and not have to reveal or challenge their homophobia and heterosexism.

That many do not want to be viewed as bigots, does not  equate what much

of the capitalist class prefers, and can be seen in actual ongoing prejudice

and discrimination in government policies and societal actions.  What is also

clear is that racism, sexism and heterosexism, will not end by just ending

capitalism, or voting for a marriage equality referendum.  Those who claim

such will, do not either understand or want to seriously challenge such 
privileges.


The ideas from the oppressed and those in the vanguard groups of those

oppressed peoples, in identifying injustice and what is required to correct

such, can not be permanently stopped by those wanting hetero patriarchal

rule, whether capitalist exploiters or labor toilers who identify with such.


Not recognizing the need for these independent movements and either

rejecting or misunderstanding capitalist efforts to try and control and end

such needed independent movements and ideas, says much about this

statement  by an isolated and limited thinking group.   They attempt to show

"critical support" to this referendum, to hide and pretend they do not hold

hetero bigoted views, but want to spend efforts "on the far more important 
issues".


Their far more unclever implied criticism of the LGBT Movement and mistaken

assumptions for not all/any, having the class conscious awareness as themselves.

Where are those "super Gays from the 1960's?" they ask.  As if they really knew

all the LGBT forces and their ideas, beyond what they consume from mostly the

corporate controlled media.  Their lack of understanding about heterosexism,

patriarchy, sexism and silence on such, is not a "fine moment" of this group.


It might be viewed historically as their justification to remain uninvolved in

both really challenging heterosexism in a independent movement and in each

of their own personal lives.  White male hetero rule, is both limiting and has 
little

future for the unfolding future generations of progressive forces, or of a 
better

world without exploitation and injustice and a sustainable environment.


It is not the individual sexual act or identity, but the creating of strong 
independent

movements and forces of oppressed together, in motion that challenge power,

privilege and rule.  Ending capitalist exploitation and destruction of our 
planet's

environment is a needed step, but not the only steps to create a sustainable 
world

of cooperation and not militarism.  This includes respect for creative same 
sexers

and their important contributions to drag humanity out of barbarism!   We must

end hetero patriarchal views and their long harmful rule and not just end 
capitalism.

as the only objective.

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Internationalism Gone Local: The Ginger Jentzen Campaign Shows How Socialism Grows from the Bottom-Up I Bryant William Sculos

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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DSA is a multi tendency organization which has various parts supporting

Green Party and others as Socialist Alternative and various Democratic Party as 
well.


My view is that some of those who are supporting candidates in the corporate 
controlled Democratic Party

will through experience and time learn the waste of their energies.  But by the 
DSA being a welcoming organization

that wants to build a needed large united left that works on many issues that 
we all have in common concerns and

values, that is more important (for a needed effective large left) than in 
internal fighting over what is less important.


We have witnessed the U.S. vanguard parties with their "perfect political 
programs" and complete centralist control

since the 1970's, remain isolated and mainly only with aging members and doing 
less energy wise interacting with

with the public.  I saw the religious right wing in many public areas but 
little of these socialist groups.  Many cities

in the United States have no socialist organizations at all.


Now DSA is becoming a possible mass based group that will likely with the tens 
of thousands of its new energized

youth, flex its influence and forces in many different areas, that might 
benefit in changing the current undemocratic

Green Party from a small closed group to become a truly mass grass roots 
democratic decision based organization.

DSA may be a base for supporting any Labor Party that emerges in first local 
elections, to confront the current capitalists

duopoly election parties in the United States.


But it would help by people joining DSA and helping work with others to achieve 
this - and be supportive of having

finally a group that is not just a top-down centralist power control small 
bunch of bureaucrats - who lost their socialist

values seeking instead personal prestige recognition and position in a 
organizational structure that "does not walk its

political talk".  We had enough "democratic centralist" groups - that were far 
more centralist than democratic!


I suggest and believe that we need is a mass based U. S. left group and then 
hopefully we can each help contribute in

various ways to make that group and its members and supporters, make the needed 
correct choices for us to end capitalist rule.





From: Marxism <marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu> on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 4:47 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Internationalism Gone Local: The Ginger Jentzen 
Campaign Shows How Socialism Grows from the Bottom-Up I Bryant William Sculos

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On 11/5/17 7:43 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
>
> Obviously, you are unaware that DSA is supporting Jentzen and sent out a 
> special appeal to support her both with funds and volunteers.

I don't think the issue is so much with DSA supporting a Socialist
Alternative candidate. It is much more about their failure to mount such
campaigns themselves. It gets doubly confusing when DSA'ers run as
Democrats while calling themselves socialist.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Internationalism Gone Local: The Ginger Jentzen Campaign Shows How Socialism Grows from the Bottom-Up I Bryant William Sculos

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Louis,


Obviously, you are unaware that DSA is supporting Jentzen and sent out a 
special appeal to support her both with funds and volunteers.





From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 6:10 AM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Internationalism Gone Local: The Ginger Jentzen 
Campaign Shows How Socialism Grows from the Bottom-Up I Bryant William Sculos

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These are the kinds of election campaigns DSA should run and support.

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Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Why are people trying to re-write LGBT history on this site?

It was always apparent that few on this site knew or took the time to learn 
such.


If one does not know it - then learn, or at least do not try to re-write it.

And why are music fans only male or that gender only considered important

in describing that musical period?


And who would state:  Gay was not a descriptive term used in the early 1960's.

Many Gay people were using this word description to identify themselves then

and it was a term used since Medieval Europe time, as an identity term.


To state: there were no expressions or known Rock musicians before David Bowie?

Well let me state - how wrong that is.  Ever hear of Lil Richard, Janis Joplin, 
etc?

And if one does not remember (but I do) of Mick Jaeger stating in his first U. 
S. press

conference in the 1960's, he and the Stones concerns for how 'homosexuals"

were being treated by the U. S. government and society.  It might have been

filtered out by some/many non-Gay people, but it was gladly welcomed by

LGBT people and their allies then.  And why is Mick Jaeger identified as 
straight

by this Marxist List contributor, when Mick Jaegar has been very clear when

asked - and in his own songs, that he has never identified as straight (and Bi)?

Do I sense straight privilege and comformity being defended by this attempt

to re-write history?


Heterosexism on display - but it gets even stranger for a Marxist list in 2017

when one writes (below) - "There was no evidence of anyone being Gay in

working class circles".   This is both untrue and obvious trying to excuse for

one never challenging homophobia or defending LGBT people at that time.


I personally am now (and was in the 1950's and 1960's) both Gay and of the

working class and open.  And I was not the only one and shame to someone

denying the existence of Gay and Lesbian workers and those who were active

and open in working class and socialist groups and events then.  Some as

myself were discriminated against, including by so-called socialists, but we

were there - and some always open and not hiding their identity.  Why the

need to deny this?


Either learn LGBT history - or at least stop trying to re-write it, to conform

to heterosexism and failure to challenge homophobia.  It is now 2017 and

this just becomes more indefensible historically.



Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 2:03 PM
This article has some resemblance as this one by Alexis Petridis a few years
back
manager Brian Epstein was gay (not that that term was used then), and there
would be snide comments from older people about the 'effeminate' pop stars of
the day, with their long hair and, later on, flamboyant clothing. Rumours about
Larry Parnes' predatory predilections for handsome young men seeped out, along
with the more common stories about his appalling rip-off managerial style; he
was popularly known as 'Parnes, Shillings and Pence'. If these tales were true,
he really would have been a Der Stürmer stereotype; I can't vouch for their
veracity.

But the rest of the gay managers were unknown to us. Lambert, Napier-Bell... the
average music fan had never heard of them, let alone knew that they were gay.
I'd heard of Stigwood, but only recently learnt (via Ginger Baker's
autobiography) that he was gay. These guys, along with their sexuality, were
behind the scenes.

As for the article's conclusion -- 'in an era when gay sexual expression was
brutally suppressed, the men were able to express themselves through the most
influential sex symbols of the day, creating a kind of erotic ventriloquism' --
that's not how it appeared at the time. Nobody of my generation thought that
Mick Jagger was gay, whatever our parents' generation might have thought, or
that his image was conjured up by some gay managerial svengali. If anything, we
young lads were envious of the way he could get crowds of girls around him; the
same went for the other popular music stars of the time. Likewise, I can't
recall any openly gay person in the popular music scene at that time. The only
man I can think of was Long John Baldry, and he wasn't publicly gay at the time;
I don't think he either admitted it or was obliged to deny it publicly, although
I suspect that it was known within the business. I can't recall when rumours
started being heard that Dusty Springfield was gay, but I don't think it was in
the 1960s, when she was first in the public eye. The whole scene appeared to be
very straight. It wasn't until the early 1970s with David Bowie did real hints
towards being gay, or at least a strong sense of ambiguity, become visible 

Re: [Marxism] The Gay Architects of Classic Rock

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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For some reason, this NY Times article " bothered" someone on this list,

"to share their concern" about music history.  Besides the NY Times never

being inclusive about LGBT history in the past, that publication provides

the views and interests of the bourgeoisie, so no  surprise this article was

written without working class context or especially of recognizing the

roots of Rock N' Roll were based in the U. S. African American people

who developed The Blues.


There is an obvious lack of awareness by the person who "shared their

concern", on both the history of musical artists in the U. S. and particularly

the Blues, who were Gay and Lesbian.   Alan Freed and Elvis Presley are

not the origins of Rock music and like many cultural fields - many are not

straight white males, either in performing, or creating in many ways.




This is seriously misleading. It should have been entitled: The Gay
Architects of Classic Rock in the UK.  In the US "classic rock" refers,
if anything, to the rock'n'roll  which became popular in the early
1950s---composed and performed by black and white artists. And the
linchpin of a lot of it, Sam Phillips, was not gay AFAIK. And even
though homosexual relations were illegal in the UK it was in the US that
homophobia more deeply gripped (still grips?) the public mind. That
would be an interesting topic to research as it relates to the "classic
rock" in america.  Alan Freed gay? I doubt it.
--


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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Marxists advocate that the U. S. and other capitalist states:

disarm their militaries and police.


As for stated concerns about " how human life has been cheapened

in U. S. society".  Really???  Are we talking about the nation that

committed genocide against the Native People and continue with

harmful policies?  Or the long history of slavery and Jim Crow and

the racist policies and practices that continue?  The government

and private vigilantes who murdered union strikers wanting to have

basic living needs, or killing radicals, the prison and injustice system,

the awful housing conditions, the lack of quality education and health

care and food.  The large number of elderly having to choose between

shelter, medicine and food - but can not have all three of.


The U. S. government with the blood of countless numbers of people

in many nations, for to benefit a capitalist quest for profits and power.


The same U. S. government and society that harms millions of poor

people who reside in the horrors and challenges in that U. S. Society

they endure?   From the prisons, to the convalescent homes, from

environmental harmed localities to the lack of hope and destroying

the lives of poor youth in both the cities and rural communities. The

violence of racism, sexism, homophobia have been long a part of the

U. S. - and accepted by many.   I know of no working class leftist who

does not understand and is affected by the ongoing violence of this

society and nation.


The Mandalay Hotel shooting reminds me of the U. S. helicopters

shooting down below on the Vietnamese villagers.  Those villagers had

less resources than the mainly Trump supporters in Vegas who paid

for their tickets to hear Country Western singers reflecting mainly

Jesus Land - and when they want" to get naughty" in Las Vegas.


What happens in Vegas - does not always just stay there.  But the

Vegas lifestyle reflects also the "U. S. Society of respect for life"

of the haves and have nots.  Consumerism, greed and I detect

some brainwashing religion and not class politics, raised as

"our nation and society's values".


What should we expect from capitalism - with "losers and winners"

Alienation - what a shock?  Violence - who would have thought it

would happen?  Fucking priviliged liberals.   Promote the disarming

of police and ending their militarization, not joining the reactionary

funded liberal "gun control groups", who want to disarm the populace

but not the government repressive forces.   Are wars, poverty, injustice

"respecting life"?






Well, the legality of assault rifles certainly didn't help. And if they
legalize silencers, just imagine how many more would have been killed,
since it would have taken that much longer to figure out where the shots
were coming from.

But in the end, it's not a matter of gun control legislation. It's a matter
of how human life has been cheapened in US society, how violence is
legitimatized, and most important the extreme level of unfocused anger and
frustration.

By the way, imagine what Trump would have been saying if it had been a
black person accused of this crime. Or a Latino immigrant. Then we would
not be hearing all the hypocrisy about "coming together"; we'd be hearing
blanket denunciation of the entire black community or of all Latino
immigrants. And if it had been a person with a Muslim last name? Oh my god!

John.

.
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[Marxism] Doug Rawlings/Vietnam Full Disclosure blog on Burns' opus

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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This section on the SWP sending people to participate in the

May Day Tribe CD protests in Washington DC in May 1971 -

is totally wrong.


I was in Washington D. C. at that very time working on staff in the

Student Mobilization Committee National Office there and as also

on the board of the National Peace Action Coalition.  I was also a

member of the Young Socialist Alliance then, which was the youth

group of the U. S. SWP that Doug Rawlings claims he was with.


The SWP/YSA/NPAC and SMC did not build or participate in the

May Day Tribe protests.  The SWP worked to assemble the much

larger in numbers April 24, 1971 National Marches on Washington

D. C. and San Francisco protests.  There were serious political

divisions between NPAC/SMC/SWP/YSA and the PCPJ and May

Day Tribe, on building an effective movement against the U. S.

War on Vietnam and other peoples of Southeast Asia.


I traveled through the streets of Washington DC that first

week in May and viewed the various efforts of May Day Tribe

supporters and their harsh treatment by government troops

and police.  But it was made very clear to me and all others

in the SWP and YSA, that we were not to engage in or support

directly the May Day Tribe efforts to shut down traffic or risk

arrest.   My memory has the Boston SWP/YSA/NPAC/SMC

working to fill buses for only the April 24, 1971 mass protests

in Washington D.C.






.
EPISODE NINE
A DISRESPECTFUL LOYALTY
MAY 1970 TO AUGUST 1973

.

There is just too much in this episode to go into.  But here are a few
take-away’s for me. First off, finally, the veteran anti-war voice is given
its due place in the movement to stop the war as the VVAW guys are
portrayed as the force they became to confront the flag-wavers. I wish now
that I had joined them in DC.  Instead, I had joined the Socialist Workers
Party in Boston and bussed down to the nation’s capital to participate in
the ill-fated May Day actions. We were to “take and hold a bridge” into the
city.  Instead, we quickly broke ranks and ran through the streets and were
dispersed. Today, I hold my brothers and sisters who were in VVAW in the
highest regard.

.

.

.

.

.

.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 and why it matters for historians of the Russian revolution(s) -Euromaidan Press |

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Thanks  for sending to me.



From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:16 AM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: The Ukrainian Revolution of 1917 and why it matters for 
historians of the Russian revolution(s) -Euromaidan Press |

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why We Must Still Defend Free Speech | by David Cole | The New York Review of Books

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Sad to see this on a Marxist site.


But those like David Cole seem to identify with this capitalist state actually 
protecting their interests!

Perhaps for him - they do - but what about the true realities of the rest of us?


How many leftists (not liberal academics in their comfy conditions) really 
believe there is either

real free speech or protection for such, by this capitalist state and its 
repressive forces and "citizenry"?

One supposedly has "freedom of speech and assembly" - until it is a threat to 
those exploiting and in power.


For many of the laboring class, we have to deal with these right wing fanatics 
and not in nice settings.

Perhaps David Cole (and other straight males) might want to hold hands with 
other males in much of

the USA referred to as "Jesus Land" and experience directly "free speech" and 
violence against them.

People of Color are fully aware of their "free assembly and free speech" in 
this Land of the Free. And

just try holding a free speech talk with red flag in many settings in this 
nation.  The capitalists have

their "private property" to limit all those places where one can carry out 
"free speech and assembly".


To assume these right wing terrorist filth only carry out public gathering 
debates - and have stopped

their usual other regular violent attacks against People of Color and men who 
appear Gay - reflects

at best ignorance of reality for those who are the targets of these fascists.


Of course when deciding if the rights and privileges of straight white male 
"liberals" in their secure

comfortable positions, is to be weighed against the less than equally secure 
and protected poor

People of Color, LGBT people and trade unionists trying to organize and defend 
their fellow workers -

well you know what side they are going to identify with.  As for physically 
fighting off fascists who

are attacking their intended targets - well don't expect them to risk harm 
either to themselves.

Ideas are one thing - but do not expect them to risk anything substantial. The 
term Limousine Liberals

seems to fit for many of the comfortable.


Silence and Acceptance along with Fear, are what both the fascists and the 
capitalist state rely on

besides brute violent force.


Those who are aware on this List, know that pleas to rely on bourgeois law and 
capitalist rule, to

defend any rights, not alone provide respect and security for poor 
discriminated people, is a false

and dangerous lie.  As I write this, many people are hurting - and without 
"free speech rights" in

the USA.  There are many in prisons, many in corporate jobs, many in the 
military and many in

their parents homes, etc.  who dare not express their views.  People who hold 
progressive views

are fired daily from their wage jobs.  We have the Taft Hartley Law in place 
against left wing unionists

and many states have anti-communist employment loyalty requirements and fire 
those who violate

these employment guidelines.


We have a nation state that rules better -when they have the populace believing 
they have "rights".

As long as they do not really try to enact them. What has historically ensured 
rights for other than

the privileged, has been workers organizations who defend such.  Not the 
privileged jurists who hold

anti-working class views.  Does anyone on this List believe that the "U. S. 
justice system" is just for all.

Or just really mainly for the privileged and comfortable to enact punishment 
against the poor and

to enact and confirm corruption and exploitation for the wealthy's behalf.


David Cole's excuse to not be engaged against fascists - with claiming we have 
"free speech"

might be believed by the privileged lawyers and academia - but does not hold up 
against reality

of those the fascists target.


I have spent much of my life in efforts to secure rights and justice.  And in 
those decades involved

in the historic Civil Rights Movement, the Lesbian & Gay Rights Movement, the 
Disabled Movement,

the Women Rights Movement and many labor union organizing efforts, it was not 
the courts and

"free speech and assembly" that made real progress, but independent organizing 
and movements

in motion.  Fascists are not going to respect "free speech" and will carry out 
their violence, fear

and discriminatory injustice.


The problem is the fascists and those who protect and support them - and not 
those who oppose them.

There are no "fine people" on the other side.  It is real life and not a 
college  philosophy class debate.


While it is far more effective to organize mass independent movements and 
actions against fascists, the

privileged 

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Should We Protest Neo-Nazis? Lessons From German History

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I must take issue with this "How Should We Protest Neo-Nazis" article for two 
reasons

(I prefer to defeat them not just protest them)


First the moderator describes the Southern Poverty Law Center as "a civil 
rights advocacy organization".

For those with memories, this group was revealed as spying on left groups and 
providing names etc. to

the Anti-Defamation League (their main sponsor) who then turned that 
information over to both the

governments of Israel and the United States.  The head of the SPLC Morris Dees 
is no leftist and made

millions of dollars as the SPLC paid staff!   Their board has militarists and 
corporatists and wealthy lawyers.

The SPLC is an anti-left Zionist organization that serves the state of Israel 
and spies on the left.


Second, how the Nazis actually came to power and to insinuate it was because of 
people in Germany were

physically fighting the Nazis that had aided them - is nonsense and re-writing 
history.  The fascists first

came to power in Hungary and then Italy and Hitler came later. Hitler came to 
power because of the

Krupps, U. S. Senator Prescott Bush and other capitalists funding them, who 
feared Germany would

have a socialist revolution.


The liberals and conscious agents of the bourgeoisie such as the SPLC, avoid 
the class issues and

why and how the fascists came to power in many nations in Europe in the 20th 
Century following

the horrendous effects of WWI.  The failure of the German Communist Party with 
its own large

organized militias to not even physically fight the Nazis and melt away when 
Hitler enacts his

dictatorial rule, is also a reason for the Nazis rule, as well as their 
categorizing the social democrats

(SPD) as "social fascists" and failing to unite to fight the Nazis.  Leon 
Trotsky work: The Struggle

Against Fascism in Germany (second edition, page  192) has him correctly write: 
By ignoring the

specific nature of fascism, the will to fight against it becomes inevitably 
paralyzed.


Fascists do not abide by "majority rule" or have respect for the views of 
others. They seek power and

to crush all they oppose - and fear.


To ignore fascists rallies and protests is a mistake.  They need to be 
challenged and isolated - and

the recent mobilization in Boston was a great example of how to successfully do 
that, in mobilizing

broad sections of the working class and disempowering and isolating the 
fascists.


The United States has had many fascists groups in its history - the Klan, 
Silver Shirts, Gerald Smith,

Father Coughlin etc.  As a Gay activist I had  to deal with many fascist groups 
- and this includes many

sections of the right wing evangelists.


The fascists want to terrorize, cause fear and make opponents immobilized and 
isolated, to oppose them.

They operate like the board game 'GO' created in Japan, that is all about 
pushing forward to grab

space and isolate one's opponent to surrender and conquer.  Fascists are not 
intent on being a

polite debating society.  Their intent is to destroy all opposition - including 
murdering us.


Relying on the Southern Poverty Law Center is a serious mistake.  The left 
needs to have their

own organizations to oppose fascists and not trust those who favor capitalist 
rule.  Putting ones

trust and hopes in the capitalist state or groups like the SPLC, that view the 
left as the enemy,

is an error - and reflects more on how the fascists came to power in Europe in 
the 20th Century.







.


In the court of public opinion, accusations of mayhem and chaos in the
streets will, as a rule, tend to stick against the left, not the right.

This was true in Germany in the 1920s. It was true even when opponents
of fascism acted in self-defense or tried to use relatively mild
tactics, such as heckling. It is true in the United States today, where
even peaceful rallies against racist violence are branded riots in the
making.

Today, right extremists are going around the country staging rallies
just like the one in 1927 in Wedding. According to the civil rights
advocacy organization the Southern Poverty Law Center, they pick places
where they know antifascists are present, like university campuses. They
come spoiling for physical confrontation. Then they and their allies
spin it to their advantage.
.
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[Marxism] U.S. Bill of Rights First Amedment

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Paul Mueller wrote today on this Marxist List - that the U. S. Bill of Rights 
First Amendment:

"protects socialists".  An astonishing statement for someone interested in 
Marxism and historical materialism!


>From my knowledge of U. S. history - socialists and others opposed to 
>exploitation and injustice

have generally not been protected by the First Amendment - and have been 
victimized by both the state oppressive

forces and right wing vigilantes in collusion with the government, to serve the 
wealthy rulers.


Clearly Mr. Mueller either wrongly chose that concept when in his rush to 
complain about the Marxist group Solidarity

removing him from their email list, (solely?) because of his disagreements with 
them around the recent public college speaking

events of several right wing hate speakers.


The power and rights of working people, are not reliant on the capitalists 
courts and their police.


The Charlotte VA city government and their police, did not disarm the fascists 
(not even their metal poles and other objects)

as they arrived in the assembly area.  Does anyone on this List believe that if 
a group of Black men showed up with guns and

the same weapons, that the same police would not disarm and likely attack them, 
while protecting the fascists?





From: Marxism  on behalf of Paul Mueller 
via Marxism 
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:41 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 166, Issue 33
.

RE: "Unlikely Allies Join Fight to Protect Free Speech..."

Too bad I didn't know about Malik Miah's article a few months ago. I was kicked 
off the Solidarity email list when I objected to support given by members of 
the Political Committee to the black bloc when they stopped Milo from speaking 
here in Berkeley.  It looks to me like the present leadership of Solidarity 
never read Malik's article or the similar article  by Hal Draper.  I was 
informed that a trans person in Berkeley was threatened by Milo and therefor it 
was right for Solidarity to do anything to stop Milo from speaking.  It doesn't 
look to me like the leaders of Solidarity have any idea how the 1st Amendment 
protects socialists.  Too many of them are school teachers who have become used 
to having the power to stop "hate speech".  They think they should have that 
power outside their oppressive classrooms.

Paul Mueller
> On Aug 25, 2017, at 11:00 AM, marxism-requ...@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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Re: [Marxism] ACLU will no longer defend hate groups that protest with firearms

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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What is not well known is that the ACLU that has defended the Klan/Nazis before

never demands or solicits money from the fascists for defending their "rights".


Yet the ACLU always requests funds for defending progressives.


The modern day ACLU due to the influence of money, has long ago strayed from

its origins as a legal defense group for the left/labor forces challenging the 
state

and these fascist groups.


When I approached the ACLU in 1969 to send a legal observer to the early

Gay Liberation Front (GLF) protests in New York City - the ACLU response was:

that this is not a civil liberties issue but a criminal issue - since they then

refused to support homosexuals.  (The Los Angeles ACLU was much better

and actively supported Gay and Lesbian peoples rights).


In 1969, a lawyer would be disbarred if learned they were Gay/Lesbian

and why I and others tried to get the ACLU for help.  The ACLU was not

the only ones who would not assist the GLF right to picket/protest. I was

also turned away by the National Lawyers Guild leader - Corlis Lamont,

a wealthy homophobic Stalinist (whose father was chairman of J. P. Morgan's)

who made it clear they would not help "sexual deviates" (fagots).  The only

legal advisor we had for help was a Lesbian law student who had not yet

passed the bar exam.  She could not attend the picketing for fear of being

discovered a Lesbian.  It was that reality in 1969, that the ACLU showed

their disgraceful refusal to aid the queers. Now they actively solicit funds

from the queers and want to claim they have always been defenders.


The shameful defense efforts of the ACLU in Skokie in providing free legal

support for the Nazis to march through the mainly Jewish neighborhood

of Skokie IL, caused many progressives to drop their financial support of

the ACLU.   The ACLU is squirming to improve their image for fund raising.

Besides their recent defense (again) of the Nazis to assemble in Charlottesville

they also were a week earlier receiving negative feedback for their support

of fascists who were demanding violence against Gays.  Using the "they

will not support Nazis carrying guns", is a way to evade they were supporting

the fascists who often carried out violence (and not just at their public 
events!)


As many on this List know, the ACLU was formed around WWI and the attacks

on radicals opposed to that war.  However, the CPUSA had to form the Labor

Defense Council in 1922, to defend their leading members arrested in a U. S.

government police raid of their underground convention in Bridgman MI

and while Roger Baldwin was one of those who agreed to be part of the

Provisional National Committee of the LDC, the later ACLU did not follow

Baldwin its co-founder in defending the CPUSA.  The LDC would soon

become the base for the founding of the International Labor Defense (ILD)

in 1925 which was led by James P. Cannon (before the CPUSA expelled him

as a supporter of Leon Trotsky).  The CPUSA was the main force that formed

the National Lawyers Guild in 1937, mainly because the American Bar

Association (ABA) favors the wealthy capitalists interests against the exploited

and oppressed.  The reason for the forming of People of Color, LGBT, labor

legal defense groups, is because of the failures of the ACLU and the ABA

to defend the oppressed and exploited.   The ACLU has made their decisions

on whom to defend based on their funders and potential funders response

and too often their awful Class politics awareness identifying with the state.







From:  on behalf of Dennis Brasky via Marxism 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:42 AM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] ACLU will no longer defend hate groups that protest with 
firearms
.

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/
45290-aclu-will-no-longer-defend-hate-groups-that-protest-with-firearms.
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[Marxism] Fwd: Michael Moore’s Broadway Debut Finds the Provocateur Where He’s Needed Least | Village Voice

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I am always amazed about how people so easily forget.


During Michael Moore's bitter 2014 divorce with his wife - she released

the facts on Michael Moore's wealth and where he invested - including

his large stocks in Boeing, the military merchant of Death and Citi Bank.

That he gave little to charities and had besides his nice several floor

Westside Manhattan condo - a twenty million dollar mansion in

Michigan among his nine houses.


 Moore is a fake and using the image of being a "real progressive".

Words but not Deeds, the revenues of his films and books, etc. have

been to enrich him.  All this was in the very public divorce.


Romantic leftists like religious unquestioning leftists - have often

been taken in by the hucksters and self promoters.



I might be getting soft in my old age, but I think this review is a bit
harsh.  Moore can be all over the place politically at times but he is
still the filmmaker that combined the roles of performance artist and
documentary film maker so brilliantly in

*Roger and Me.*
comradely

Gary


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
.
> A shrewd review.
>
> https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/08/16/michael-moore-broadw
> ay-show-terms-surrender-review/
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[Marxism] Fw: Building a movement

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Forwarding a link with a good response that is critical of those who attack 
"identity politics".  My only major difference

with the writer is on her stating that "Neo-liberalism has won".  I disagree, 
in that there are many including myself who

reject neo-liberalism and the issue of capitalism and neo-liberalism as 
victorious and forever.  I assume she did not mean

to give indirect support to accepting capitalism.


As a Gay man, I have viewed those complaining about "identity politics", as a 
way to ignore these very real issues

of bigotry and discrimination and wanting to end or limit these independent 
movements, that are challenging

racism, sexism, heterosexism and ablebodyism.

https://newsocialist.org.uk/white-marxism-critique/
[https://newsocialist.org.uk/content/images/2017/08/750px-Black_Jacobin_-Florisuga_fuscus-.jpg]

White Marxism: A Critique of Jacobin 
Magazine
newsocialist.org.uk
by Uday Jain This critique comes from a place of solidarity. As this is a 
critical moment to reassess the history and present of international socialism 
and imagine a new path forward – many new paths forward – it is absolutely 
crucial to get the basics of this reassessment right. Jacobin have







.




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[Marxism] The Fallout - America's nuclear history creeps into the present

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The Fallout
In St. Louis, America's nuclear history creeps into the present, leaching into 
streams and bodies.
By Lacy M. Johnson
EXCERPT - Her youngest son was napping when the phone rang. Dawn was sitting on 
the top bunk in his bedroom folding laundry. The man on the phone introduced 
himself as Joe Trunko from the Missouri Department of Natural Resources. Joe 
spoke gently, slowly. He told Dawn that there is a landfill near her home, that 
it is an EPA Superfund site contaminated with toxic chemicals, that there has 
been an underground fire burning there since 2010. “These things happen 
sometimes in landfills,” he said. “But this one is really not good.”
Guernica:
https://www.guernicamag.com/the-fallout/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Workers March Announced for Washington, DC

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Louis,


Could you tell your  friends at North Star - to try and be more historically 
accurate.

Their call for a Workers March later this month, is definitely not accurate as 
the first

such held in Wash D. C.


I participated in one organized by the AFL-CIO on April 26, 1975

and then the even larger one: Solidarity Day on September15, 1981

followed by Solidarity Day II on August 31, 1991


But there were also other more famous workers marches on Washington D. C. in 
the 1930's

and even further back to Jacob Coxey's led march in 1894.





From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 5:46 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Workers March Announced for Washington, DC

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http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=13411
Workers March Announced for Washington, 
DC
www.thenorthstar.info
Baltimore, MD – A small, all volunteer group of activists from the DMV area are 
planning the first ‘Workers March on Washington DC’ taking place on Sunday, 
April 30 2017, the day before International Workers Day. The march will bring 
workers from across the country together in solidarity for workers rights and 
all human rights. […]


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[Marxism] Jean Rouverol Butler, Blacklisted Screenwriter, Dies at 100

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Jean Rouverol Butler, Blacklisted Screenwriter, Dies at 100


http://a.msn.com/0C/en-us/BByMfGx?ocid=se




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[Marxism] Fwd: This Is What’s Really Behind North Korea’s Nuclear Provocations | The Nation

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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You are showing your being influenced by both capitalist and racist influences

when you state "world's leading authority"


Are there no Koreans who might know more about Korea than Bruce Cumings?



 From Bruce Cumings, the world's leading authority on Korea and a Marxist.


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[Marxism] Fw: UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I consider myself aware of the the history of Syria and the various political 
and religious currents there -

including the many different tribal and religious sects, that are involved in 
both pro-Syria government and

anti-Syria government.  All the small military militias with their various 
eagle and flag symbols and names.

I subscribe to many Syria sites and not jut those outside of Syria, as others 
on this list - from what I have

seen shared by them.


But I have no favorable view of  the various front groups that have been 
established that support either

a capitalist Bathist government, or the many bands of various jihadi opponents. 
 There has been little to

no reporting on the various Syrian political left currents - only just the 
anti-left formations.


I have watched and been supportive of those Kurds and other minorities in Iraq 
and Syria, who have

opposed ISIS and al-Qaeda and adhere to  proletarian rule and not the wealthy 
rulers and monarchs

of those lands.


I was told many years by some on this list, including the moderator, that I 
should not criticize the Iran

government - because it "objectively aided U.S. imperialism".  Now these same 
people are condemning

that same Iran government for supporting the Bashir al-Assad Bathist led 
government in Syria! And when

I warned several years ago of my concerns about the Syrian Civil War becoming a 
bloody conflict that would

only harm most Syrians - and opposed any U. S. military involvement - some of 
these same supposed

wise people - refused to recognize both reality and history of that land and 
peoples.


The U. S. government in its many forms - are a danger to the Syrian masses - 
and not a protector.





From: Marx Mail00 <marxmai...@gmail.com>

On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Obrien via Marxism 
<marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu<mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:

the jihadists in Syria - are not for tolerance but seek power and control - 
motivated not by progressive political views - but by reactionary religious 
views.

Quibbles about words like “progressive” and “reactionary” aside, this statement 
by Obrien is true *by definition* and therefore vacuous: the predicate 
("seeking power and control"; "motivated by religious views") is implied by the 
choice of the subject of the sentence ("jihadists”).

The fact that Obrien believes the subject “jihadists” truthfully represents all 
those fighting Assad says everything one needs to know about his ignorance of, 
and bias regarding, the conflict in Syria.
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[Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Are you stating - that the U. S.military - could be of actual help?


Thus ignoring the purpose of the U. S. military - which is to harm those

opposed to capitalist rule?




On 3/18/17 8:14 PM, John Obrien wrote:
> I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to
> be inflicted on the Arab masses,


Of course not. The Syrians and Russians you implicitly support needed no
help.


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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Unlike Christopher Hitchens  -  and the moderator

I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to be 
inflicted on the Arab masses,

including in Syria.


And I never identified religious reactionaries - as revolutionaries - as has 
been described on this Marxist site.


I believe that Bashir al-Assad is a proclaimed Muslim.  Unlike the Muslim 
worker friends that I work with

at my wage job and interact with in the working class neighborhood that I 
reside in - the jihadists in Syria -

are not for tolerance but seek power and control - motivated not by progressive 
political views - but by

reactionary religious views.






On 3/18/17 7:48 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
>
> The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
> planes on buildings?


Christopher Hitchens couldn't have put it 
better.<http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/causecollector%40msn.com>
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[Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Chris Slee has it correct!


It is too bad that the moderator does not learn from history.

Religious fanatics have and are inclined to use every brutality against those 
who think different.


Most of the Iranian left falsely believed in 1979 that  Iran's Shite leaders 
would adhere to democracy

and not carry out the same behavior as the Shah.  A tragic mistake to not 
understand the reactionary

role of religious fundamentalism.


The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
planes on buildings?

If one wants to believe that al-Qaeda's supporters in Syria (al-Nusra, etc.) 
and ISIS and other

such jihadi fanatics would not use indiscriminate bombing as Bashir al-Assad, 
is ignoring reality.

Suicide bombing by vehicle is regularly used - and like the Shinto religious 
fanatics of Japan in

their kamikaze plane attacks, or the British Christian use of poison gas on the 
Iraqis efforts

for independence following WWI, or the United States widespread use of napalm 
bombings

in Korea and later Vietnam - there is a long sad barbaric history of violence - 
by religious "believers".


As a Gay man, I can tell you with certainty that religious fanatics harm - and 
many are happy to

do massive harm with savagery and whatever weapons they can gain use of - 
including planes.


Karl Marx was correct when he identified religion and religious believers - as 
part of the problem.

As "the opium of the people".  Perhaps some want to view Islam "as progressive" 
- but it is not

and like its other religious adherent counter parts - promotes masters, rulers 
and servants.

Away with all false ideologies and backward thinking - including in Syria!




On 3/18/17 4:09 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
>  I think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and had 
> control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that rebelled 
> against their rule.

Except that the "jihadists" have never deployed artillery in the
indiscriminate fashion that Assad has used his air force. When a single
hospital in West Aleppo came under fire, there were ten thousand
articles denouncing such inhumanity but not a single one about all the
hospitals that had been leveled to the ground in East Aleppo. If you
have trouble grasping this, I suggest you read the Zionist press on
Hamas's rocket attacks on Sderot. As is almost universally the case, the
"anti-imperialist" press can figure this out when it comes to Gaza but
not Syria. Too bad that Chris Slee reflects this sort of bad faith.

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Re: [Marxism] scumbags from the past - Elliot Abrams - war criminal

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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And the irony of this site being of the democratic party politician Bill 
Moyers, who working

in the Johnson/Humphrey Administration, excused mass murder of Southeast Asians 
and

U. S. war crimes - is now sharing that it is only others like Elliot Abrams and 
not his own crimes?


 Moyers use to lie and deny the Johnson Administration war crimes when he was 
the White House

Press Secretary.  Now Moyers is a "champion" of progressive values - or at 
least what the democratic party

supporters are promoting, in creating a "new Bill Moyers".


Sorry, but Moyers should join Abrams among other U. S government figures to 
stand trial. They were paid to

carry out wrong and harm on a wide scale.



From: Marxism  on behalf of Dennis Brasky 
via Marxism 
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 7:20 PM
To: causecollec...@msn.com
Subject: [Marxism] scumbags from the past - Elliot Abrams - war criminal



http://billmoyers.com/story/actual-american-war-criminal-may-become-second-ranking-diplomat/


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Re: [Marxism] Anarchists who helped kill Occupy worry anti-Trump activists

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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While I oppose the Black Block tactics of personal witnessing/actions and not to

promote and encourage a larger more effective movement to win - but to just

express anger - the politics expressed in this bourgeois newspaper are 
historically inaccurate.


It avoids mention of the U. S. government and its repressive agencies of 
military and police

as the main source of violence.


It was the U. S. government organized attack on the Occupy Movement that ended

that movement - and not Black Bloc.  What Black Bloc did in Oakland or Seattle

did not end the Occupy encampments.  The democratic party supporters do not

want to recognize that government repression and attack on political views -

was by the Democratic politicians in the U. S. government, led by president 
Obama,

vice president Joe Biden,  Hillary Clinton and other prominent democratic 
politicians.

Most of the city mayors who allowed their police to remove the Occupy 
encampments

from public property, also used the same police to prevent further assembly by 
Occupy.

They feared independent anti-capitalist movements.


The same was the case in other nations that had local Occupy encampments.

The origins of the Occupy Movement were by creative energies and ideas of

anarchists - but their fear of not being in control - was also a major factor 
for

the decline in involvement, along with undemocratic decision making.


Endless meetings where decisions were either never carried out or other

deliberate not well publicized meetings to "keep control" by some anarchists

and other political forces, discouraged many people from participating.  This

with the government repression and no organized Left - were the reasons for

the end of the Occupy Movement - and not Black Bloc that appears to me

made up of immature self centered angry people, who are more anti-social

than anti-capitalist.


We should always keep focus on who the main problem is - and it is not the

politically immature - as much as in the Occupy Movement case.  Instead a

organized attack by many governments to deny free speech and assembly

to opponents of capitalism.  This was a response to aid the capitalists who

feared that Occupy movement could excite and involve more to challenge

and end capitalist rule.




.
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 7:33 PM
Subject: Anarchists who helped kill Occupy worry anti-Trump activists
 .

SF Chronicle, Feb. 5 2017
Anarchists who helped kill Occupy worry anti-Trump activists
By Kevin Fagan and Michael Bodley

As Kathy Lipscomb watched TV newscasts of “black bloc” anarchists
smashing windows at a UC Berkeley protest, the former organizer of
Occupy demonstrations was obsessed by two thoughts.

The first, she said, was: “Oh no, not again.” The second: “We can’t let
them help ruin things this time.”

Those sentiments echoed across the Bay Area as leaders of the current
wave of protests against President Trump took heed of Wednesday’s campus
violence, Trump’s subsequent threat to cut funding to UC Berkeley, and
what all that portends for their movement.

Their biggest fear is a repeat of what happened to Occupy earlier this
decade, when black bloc violence chased away nonviolent, mainstream
protesters — and helped lead to Occupy’s collapse about five years ago.


That movement faded to a whisper for several reasons, including its
commitment to having no leaders and its disorganized cacophony of
causes. But the destruction wrought by black bloc anarchists scared away
nonviolent protesters and focused public attention on what amounted to a
tiny sliver of protesters. And often, though they attacked banks and
other big-corporation businesses the demonstrations were aimed at, black
bloc vandals also damaged small shops whose owners agreed with the
philosophy Occupy.


Ellis Goldberg left the Occupy movement in disgust over the violence to
organize the followup 99 Percent demonstrations. He helped plan a
Women’s March in Walnut Creek on Jan. 21 and said he made sure to
arrange for volunteer security, “because we want to show we are doing
something positive and we’re not just a bunch of hooligans.”


Bagot said he’s confident that “something long-lasting will come of
things this time.” But, he said, “That won’t happen if we let the
craziest, most macho people mess it up like they did with Occupy.”

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[Marxism] The U.S. hasn't won a war in 70 years and Trump's buildup can't fix that

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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To state that the U. S. has not won a military victory in 70 years - is just 
false.


I am surprised that more people on this list have not mentioned that there was a

number of military efforts since 1945 that the U. S. government was successful 
in.

These range from Grenada to Serbia and from Kuwait to the Congo.  And often

through surrogate forces from Columbia to Sudan and Dominican Republic to

Israel.


And to not recognize this deadly military monster that is often involved in

coups and counter revolutions through many ways, is not recognizing reality.

The U.S. military is very armed and dangerous with AI robotics to chemical and

biological weapons to nuclear weapons to eliminate all life on this planet. Just

what are U. S. military forces doing in more than half the nations of this 
planet?

They aided England in defeating the IRA in Ireland to removing Ghaddafi in 
Libya.


And some have written on this list to encourage this military death machine to

further invade and occupy Syria.  Seems so strange at times to understand how

people do not understand and recognize U. S. imperialism and its military's role

and terror on this list?






Subject: [Marxism] The U.S. hasn't won a war in 70 years and Trump's buildup 
can't fix that



Why do so many Americans think that we have inferior armed forces?
Because we can't seem to win a war, and we've been in plenty.
The United States has not won a decisive victory in any military
conflict it has been directly involved in since we nuked Japan in 1945.

http://hatueysashes.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-us-hasnt-won-war-in-70-years-and.html


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Re: [Marxism] examples of police revolt?

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The New York police were in similar revolt against mayor David Dinkins (1990 - 
1993)
and massed at City Hall threatening violence against that city's first African 
American
mayor for his supporting an effort to establish a civilian review board over 
the police.

There have been other instances of USA police who challenged civilian power - 
the most famous example was the bloody 1919 Boston Police Strike that was 
violently 
crushed by the Massachusetts National Guard on the orders of then governor 
Calvin Coolidge.  
The crushing of the police strike led to Coolidge becoming U. S. president.



 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:49:54 -0500
 Subject: [Marxism] examples of police revolt?
 From: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
 To: causecollec...@msn.com
 

 
 Thinking obviously of what's brewing in New York, what are some historical
 parallels? Revolts of military, vets, fascist groups come easily to mind.
 But police specifically? (Probably something from Germany in the 20s but
 can't place the incident in my memory.)


  
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[Marxism] Syria Daily: The Insurgency’s Big Victory in the Northwest | EA WorldView

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Louis,
In your apparent excitement to send this truly exciting news to all those 
miguided asmyself on this list, who still hold to apparent outdated views on 
supporting women andGay rights and supporting a socialist economy and humane 
society -  you overlookedthere were two big victories yesterday for Al-Qaeda - 
and you only listed this one in Syria.The other were their co-religious 
reactionaries, who killed over 130 children in Pakistan.
Perhaps you were going to share a separate similar unbiased report on this 
exciting victory in Pakistan from the Taliban.  
However, you probably know my outdated views that we need a socialist state 
in both Syria and Pakistan and not national socialist states, as Al Qaeda 
wants, including the oneswho apparently took the military base you wanted to 
excitedly share with us.
Both Al-Qaeda victories yesterday - only mean more blood and harm - and does 
nothingtowards bringing socialism to either places that has had enough blood 
and harm done to it.
Instead of supporting an end to the fighting in Syria - and urging Bashir 
al-Assad to leave andcalling for the Syria people to also reject reactionary 
religious fanatics and set up a Syrianstate of cooperation and with a socialist 
economic outlook that rejects imperialist controland remains secular - I keep 
getting the impression you would welcome Al Nusra and suchother reactionary 
groups to win.  But that can't be the case - and I keep misreading and 
notunderstanding what you are actually proposing (hoping?) for a new Syria 
government.
Unless you favor religious war now against all Shia/Alawites in that nation and 
perhaps elsewhere?The victors who took the base you reported on - want a 
bloodbath and to kill all of other thoughtand religious belief.  Just thrilling 
news indeed.  But am I the only one who is confused about whatan Al-Qaeda 
victory (with its off shoots) does to promote socialism - and not just more 
death andhurt?  I have seen more space given on this site to oppose the Black 
Bloc anarchists, than I haveon Al Qaeda and its other reactionary religious 
sect splits.  Who is more dangerous - the smallnumber of Black Bloc supporters 
acting as spoiled immature brats (as they are) - or the fanaticalreligious 
right wing Islamists?  I take for granted you share with me that the U. S. 
imperialists arethe greatest danger to us.



  




 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:09:34 -0500
 Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Syria Daily: The Insurgency’s Big Victory in the 
 Northwest | EA WorldView
 From: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
 To: causecollec...@msn.com



 
 http://eaworldview.com/2014/12/syria-daily-insurgencys-big-victory-northwest/

  
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[Marxism] FLOOR STATEMENT BY SENATOR JOHN McCAIN ON SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE REPORT ON CIA INTERROGATION METHODS - Press Releases - United States Senator John McCain

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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U. S. Senator John McCain's statement yesterday on CIA torture in 2003 - 2008 
is typical U. S. propaganda.

The CIA has always used torture through its bloody history (and has not stopped)

The war criminal John McCain who dropped bombs on civilian populated cities of 
Hanoi and Haiphong
and whose government's widespread use of napalm and other chemical and 
biological weapons during
that war against the brave people of Vietnam who defied his government knows 
very well he was never
tortured as he falsely claims.

But the truth is the CIA actively tortured in Vietnam.  It carried out 
Operation Phoenix that tortured
and murdered tens of thousands - well over 200,000 deaths in this one of 
several efforts the CIA was
actively engaged in during that war by McCain and his government on the 
Vietnamese people who
wanted national independence.


And the very censored report by U. S. senator Dianne Feinstein - that 
includes the nonsense that
efforts were made to not have Secretary of State Colin Powell know that the CIA 
was carrying out
torture - is as bizarre.  It was Colin Powell who was in charge of the coverup 
of the My Lai (Song MY)
massacre in Vietnam.  Lieutenant Calley and Captain Medina reported directly to 
Colin Powell - who
himself is another war criminal.  Colin Powell worked actively with the CIA 
operatives in Vietnam
to unsuccessfully defeat Vietnam Independence.

The CIA has actively engaged in and supported dictatorships around the world 
widely using torture,
rape, murder etc. - it is a long list from Central America, through Africa, 
Europe and Asia - and through
the entire history of the CIA.

This sanitized (censored) report finally released which U. S. president Obama 
tried long to even reveal
represents only a small tip of the widespread use of torture by the U. S. 
government.  President Obama
and his lap dog John Kerry have spent more time on how to keep this censored 
CIA approved version 
from being even revealed, than on actively seeking prosecution of the CIA 
employees and contractors.

And the Geneva Convention violations and world law require that U. S.president 
George W. Bush,
vice president Dick Cheney, Condoleza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld and many other 
cabinet and senior
members of government should be tried as war criminals - just by what was 
finally released.  But
all the U. S. presidents and their cabinets and senior staff can also be 
brought up for other war crimes,
since the U. S. government has used terror,  torture and murder for a very long 
time - and they are
not the only government with blood on their hands!





 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 05:19:58 -0500
 Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: FLOOR STATEMENT BY SENATOR JOHN McCAIN ON SENATE 
 INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE REPORT ON CIA INTERROGATION METHODS - Press Releases - 
 United States Senator John McCain
 From: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
 To: causecollec...@msn.com
 

 
 (So, maybe McCain was the lesser evil after all.)
 

  
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[Marxism] Pride | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I viewed this film last night at the Arclight, one of the major Los Angeles 
multiplex film theaters.
There were two screens showing this film there, at the same time - both 
appeared sold out.

I highly recommend this film.   The NUM coal miners historic 1984 strike and 
these LGBT activists
with the Out and Loud group and Gays The Word bookstore and the Gay Liberation 
Front, are all
 correctly shown - and shows how solidarity does have lasting affects.  

The photography is good and listening to Pete Seeger, Paul Robeson and those 
singing Bread And
Roses, is most enjoyable and inspiring. I greatly enjoyed seeing the original 
badges (buttons) of both 
the Gay groups and the miners throughout the  film, but those wonderful and 
graphic large textile
union banners - were something not to miss - and play an important element in 
the final parts of
this film.  

Unlike Louis P.'s review - the filmmakers did make clear that Thatcher 
triumphed and the miners
voted to return to their jobs.  The NUM Strike was 1984 - 1985 and not 1983 
that Louis listed in his
review.

 



 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:14:22 -0400
 Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Pride 
 
 
 Opening yesterday at three multiplex theaters in New York rather than in 
 the art house circuit, “Pride” is calculated to appeal to a broader 
 audience than one might expect given its theme: the alliance between a 
 gay liberation group and the coal miners on strike against Margaret 
 Thatcher in 1983.
 
 This makes perfect sense since the art house venue would be the classic 
 case of preaching to the choir.
 
 As I sat through the press screening on Thursday night,
 
 full: http://louisproyect.org/2014/09/27/pride/


  

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[Marxism] Michael Moore Slams Obama: All He#65533; ll Be Reme mbered for Is #65533; First Black President#65533; | Mediaite

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Michael Moore was exposed widely two months ago during his
divorce in June 2014, when documents revealed his wealth at
fifty million dollars. In addition to his two million dollar mansion
in Michigan and his large three floor residence in Manhattan, he   
also had six other residences.

While he gave little to charity groups, he did own substantial
amount of stock in Boeing, Sunoco, Best Foods and Bank One.
His owning this stock revealed his true values and why he
favored the corporate owned Democratic Party. 

Michael Moore is part of the one percent.
 

 
 
 What he does has become increasingly irrelevant.
 
 I suspect that, in his own mind, he is encouraging a liberal bid for
 the Democratic nomination. This delusion end when whoever the Democrats
 nominate is crowned the liberal option in the electio
 
 
 
 
 Do you think that this will stop Michael Moore from backing Hillary in 2016?
 
 Jim Farmelant

 
 

 From: Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
 Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Michael Moore Slams Obama: All He#65533;ll Be
 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 08:15:43 -0400
 
 And this idiot had the nerve to beg Ralph Nader not to run. He is
 finally eating his words.
 
 http://www.mediaite.com/online/michael-moore-slams-obama-all-hell-be-remembered-for-is-first-black-president/

  

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Re: [Marxism] Michael Moore Slams Obama: All He'll Be Remembered for Is First Black President

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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The surprise is not how much money Michael Moore made -
but what he did with it.  I wrote clearly he invested in the
Merchant of War companies and a known Bank Predator
company.  And he gave very little to non-profit and to social
justice groups even less.  Does anyone on this list think 
there is not a problem with investing in the Boeing military
company?  

 

 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:23:19 -0700
 
 John O. wrote:
  
 Michael Moore was exposed widely two months ago during his divorce in 
 June 2014, when documents revealed his wealth at fifty million dollars.

 Certainly worth knowing but it is more a question than an answer: what 
 was the content of the movies that made him that fortune? On balance, 
 did they make the politico-cultural scene better or worse? (That's 
 different than following his abject advice every four years.)
 
 It was revealing in the Hollywood Reporter clip that he says, I left 
 Toronto [25 years ago after Roger and Me was a great success] in first 
 class  and boy, once you've flown first class, it is hard to go back.

  

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[Marxism] Need Information On: Charles Modock Davis

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I am putting together an exhibit on USA, that includes police brutality.
But I overlooked what city, year and group issued the following button
and can not find on any search engine the history behind this item:

Justice for Charles Modock Davis

I believe issued during the 1970's-1980's Period. 
Any information would be appreciated.
You can contact me off this list, if you prefer.



  

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[Marxism] Iraq is not Syria: US Congress on board this time - Yahoo News

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Am I wrong to conclude this recent email by this List moderator (below) implies:

1) It would be correct (and good) to support U. S. military attacks on the
 Bashir al-Assad led Syria government?

2) It would be correct (and good) to support U. S. military attacks on the 
 ISIS/ISIL/IS in Iraq and Syria?

3) It was correct for the social democrats to support their nation's governments
 and military attacks on other nation governments and militaries in World 
War One?

And this also leads me to ask:

4) Since some on this same List last year (and more recently) were stating
 that those as myself who were concerned that the calls to support ALL
 the opponent forces to the Bashir al-Assad led Syrian government would:
 A) be supporting reactionary Islamists forces - such as ISIS
 B) should only support anti-capitalist/anti-imperialist forces  -

that we were wrong - and support of FSA, ISIS, etc. was correct and their 
giving words
that indirectly or directly, encouraged political support for expanding 
imperialist military intervention

And I have email responses on this List saying that:

It was not true or a concern  by me and others, about the actual political 
forces and relative strength of support among those identified with the 
organized opposition to
the Bashir al-Assad led Syria government - as being primarily reactionary 
Islamists.
That the Free Syrian Army and other rebel groups such as ISIS were filled with 
great
progressive rebels.

So while the U. S. government and its allies can now support the Bashir al-Assad
government indirectly by attacking ISIS forces - why should Marxists be 
involved in
supporting any of these reactionary pro-capitalist forces - whether the current
governments and their militarys in Iraq, Syria, U. S., Israel. Saudi Arabia, 
Qatar, etc.?

Should Marxists have not learned from the World War One conflict held precisely
one hundred years ago - and not support any such capitalist government military
or other reactionary forces - and only support anti-capitalist forces that 
favor worker
governments?


Personally and politically I do not support the Bashir al-Assad led Syria 
government
or the current Iraq government(s), or view the U. S. imperialist as positive 
forces -
and none in my opinion should either - or should they still then claim to be 
Marxists or Anarchists in any progressive form.  We witnessed the former 
radical Christopher Hitchens in 2003 arguing for support of U. S. government 
military forces to overthrow the then Saddam Hussein led Iraq Government.  If 
Hitchens was wrong then (and he was) why would it be politically okay now, to 
support the same U. S. capitalist military forces to attack in Iraq, Syria, 
etc.?  The neo-cons some who had been also former SWP members in the Schactman 
split in the 1940's, were wrong to support the GW Bush and his father GH Bush 
and Bill Clinton's led U. S. government military forces against Iraq.

The politics in the world in 1914, were very bad.  Capitalist governments and 
monarchy empires were firmly in control.  But something happened - events that 
led to change.
Vladimir Lenin and other Marxists and Anarchists throughout the world refused 
to take sides in the conflict among capitalist governments then - and called 
for workers to resist this war and instead to support political formations that 
supported the interests of working people for peace, land and bread etc.   

Christopher Hitchens was wrong in his political assessments following the 
collapse of the Soviet Union government, to support in 2002-2003 U. S. 
imperialism and capitalist wars.   Clay Claiborne and some others on this List 
seem going down the same road as the Neo-cons, Christopher Hitchens and others 
that have abandoned radical politics of Marxism and others Anarchism, to 
instead view taking sides of which reactionary force should be in power to 
exploit and oppress.

Workers of the World Unite - You have nothing to lose but your chains!
Give up the mental chains of ideological control and imperialist propaganda
and oppose their control - and support a better world!
 
 



 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 08:27:23 -0400
 Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Iraq is not Syria: US Congress on board this time -   
 Yahoo News
 From: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
 To: causecollec...@msn.com
 
 
 
 Maybe John Rees and the Becker brothers should pull out all the stops 
 and organize mass demonstrations around the slogan No War on ISIS. 
 After all, they saved Assad's neck last year. ;-)
 
 http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-isnt-syria-congress-board-time-160544152--election.html

  

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Set your 

Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


So with all the back and forth on mainly egos and information on who did what 
-
whether Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, etc. - I continue to detect on this Marxist List 
discussions
people promoting/cheer leading U. S. (capitalist) government military and 
economic
aggression and interference in these and other nations - and others promoting 
the
Russia (capitalist) government and its allies/proxies (capitalist) states 
actions.
 
While I like the historical information some people share on this list, I wish
there was more a direction on how people can help REAL socialists in these
different lands, than to this ideological and too much male ego strutting - on
generals with no armies reviewing their battle strategies.
 
There are real lives at stake - and those cheerleading for a USA or other 
capitalist
military to occupy and cause destruction, does nothing concretely to change 
things
that favor the poor and working people of this world.
 
Why are people expecting/hoping/viewing on this List, the USA government and
its allies/proxies - being a positive alternative to expand spheres of 
influence
and power in this world?   And everyone who has written their criticism of the
USA government not doing more (meaning militarily/economically) under the
Obama administration (who would not do so if Bush, Reagan were presidents)
in Sudan, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine and now Ukraine - promote peace,
justice or socialism?  They seem to more identify with the USA military Empire, 
   
than in efforts to establish worker democracies.
 
The collapse of the Stalinist Soviet Union, should have energized people on
this list to help reach out and assist in many ways in building left groups in
those former Soviet republics and in Eastern Europe.   Instead we have seen
people just writing among themselves - and instead of outreach building
in other nations and the ones they reside in - cheerleading for president
Obama to use MORE military and economic force to be the Big Bully in
the world!  We need to do away with the cheer leading for Putin and Obama
and spend real time on promoting socialism - the only real hope for this
world, that many such as myself on this List, STILL believe in.  
 
 
 http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/ 
 
 On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:45:43 PM UTC-4, Clay Claiborne wrote:
 
  Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's Rush to Judgement as to 
  Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know 




  

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Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[John Obrien via Marxism]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==



So with all the back and forth on mainly egos and information on who did what 
-
whether Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, etc. - I continue to detect on this Marxist List 
discussions
people promoting/cheer leading U. S. (capitalist) government military and 
economic
aggression and interference in these and other nations - and others promoting 
the
Russia (capitalist) government and its allies/proxies (capitalist) states 
actions.
 
While I like the historical information some people share on this list, I wish
there was more a direction on how people can help REAL socialists in these
different lands, than to this ideological and too much male ego strutting - on
generals with no armies reviewing their battle strategies.
 
There are real lives at stake - and those cheerleading for a USA or other 
capitalist
military to occupy and cause destruction, does nothing concretely to change 
things
that favor the poor and working people of this world.
 
Why are people expecting/hoping/viewing on this List, the USA government and
its allies/proxies - being a positive alternative to expand spheres of 
influence
and power in this world?   And everyone who has written their criticism of the
USA government not doing more (meaning militarily/economically) under the
Obama administration (who would not do so if Bush, Reagan were presidents)
in Sudan, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine and now Ukraine - promote peace,
justice or socialism?  They seem to more identify with the USA military Empire, 
   
than in efforts to establish worker democracies.
 
The collapse of the Stalinist Soviet Union, should have energized people on
this list to help reach out and assist in many ways in building left groups in
those former Soviet republics and in Eastern Europe.   Instead we have seen
people just writing among themselves - and instead of outreach building
in other nations and the ones they reside in - cheerleading for president
Obama to use MORE military and economic force to be the Big Bully in
the world!  We need to do away with the cheer leading for Putin and Obama
and spend real time on promoting socialism - the only real hope for this
world, that many such as myself on this List, STILL believe in.  
 
 
 http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/ 
 
 On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:45:43 PM UTC-4, Clay Claiborne wrote:
 
  Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's Rush to Judgement as to 
  Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know 





  

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