Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > “Sievert” is one of the many terms of mystification used to prevent > most people from fully understanding radiation. Calling an international standard unit a "term of mystification" with some sinister purpose to keep people in the dark should be enough to discredit this article and source. -- Tristan Sloughter "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson t...@crashfast.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away,
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Good comments on this issue by everyone. Always nice to see. Les, thanks for the correction from the second paragraph. Yes...I also missed this. Ugh. Still...I think the article is somewhat sensationalist especially give, as the article notes, there is nothing new here. They are, still, sensationalist, I think. Given that it's inside an reactor, even without a critical (meaning it's not fissioning) reactions occurring, 'estimates' of the radiation levels ARE quite high even before "proof". The problem here is that they are not using Geiger counters. They are using a camera that is very imprecise (up or down) in determining the levels of radiation. I think this is one of the reasons TEPCO hasn't announced radiation 'levels' previously. That the robots get fried is not surprising at all given the levels of radiation inside or near the core. I just don't think there is any real news here worth *worrying* about...the article is full of 'worry'. Seems overblown to me. David _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2017-02-13 18:20, Dennis Brasky via Marxism wrote: Thanks for your thoughtful contribution Les Well I guess I missed something, but maybe Dennis or someone could explain Les' point. What I gather is that the clean-up operation is daunting due to the radiation level at or near the reactor core, and that even so-called radiation-hardened robots are killed in just 2 hours. That makes me happy that I don't have the job of figuring out how to deal with it. But regardless of where the radioactive material is (fortunately most of it remains inside the containment area), it can only be moved, not destroyed. Unlike any chemical fuel, there is no way of making a radioactive isotope non-radioactive any faster than is given by its half-life. This goes also for the waste routinely created by a reactor running normally (but at least that waste is easier to handle). Even if a reactor accident never affected a person, the incredible cost associated with an accident (cleanup, evacuation of the area, containment of the material for centuries) is a good reason that nuclear reactors for power should be avoided. But of course, for a given capitalist or government agency, the chance of THAT reactor having an accident is small, justifying their enterprise in terms of expected profit (especially where liability for a nuclear accident is limited by special laws). In the same short-sighted way that those involved in fossil fuel energy can ignore their role in climate change. I can't say for sure that the Japanese authorities have effectively kept people out of danger. But the original article posted didn't even address that, but rather made (fallacious) arguments of the sort: In Carmel, California, local residents are finding that tide pools, once vibrant with life, are now dead. They blame Fukushima. Oh. And every one of them that does blame Fukushima is wrong. Period. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thanks for your thoughtful contribution Les - I wish you were wrong! On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Les Schaffer via Marxism > > > proof positive you (and now Jeff) didnt actually read the article. Quote: > > > """Continuous, intense radiation, at 530 sieverts an hour (4 sieverts is a > lethal level), was widely reported in early February 2017 – as if this were > a new phenomenon. It’s not. Three reactors at Fukushima melted down during > the earthquake-tsunami disaster on March 3, 2011, and the meltdowns never > stopped. Radiation levels have been out of control ever since. As > Fairewinds Energy Education noted in an email February 10: > > Although this robotic measurement just occurred, this high radiation > reading was anticipated and has existed inside the damaged Unit 2 atomic > reactor since the disaster began nearly 6 years ago…. As Fairewinds has > said for 6 years, there are no easy solutions because groundwater is in > direct contact with the nuclear corium (melted fuel) at Fukushima Daiichi. > > What’s new (and not very new, at that) is the official acknowledgement of > the highest radiation levels yet measured there, by a factor of seven (the > previously measured high was 73 sieverts an hour in 2012). The highest > radiation level measured at Chernobyl was 300 sieverts an hour. What this > all means, as anyone paying attention well knows, is that the > triple-meltdown Fukushima disaster is still out of control.""" > > > so, while the radiation levels may indeed be in a state of SAME, our > SAMPLING of that state is getting more accurate as we get closer. TEPCO hid > behind the lower numbers, but now that the robotic cameras are getting > knocked out after 2 hours of use, robotic cleaning's got problems > > > https://www.techworm.net/2017/02/even-6-years-extreme-radiat > ion-levels-inside-fukushima-deep-fry-cleanup-robot.html > > > And, besides, its IN the containment vessel! >> > > does "IN" have a meaning here? > > > Les > > > > On 02/13/2017 10:58 AM, DW via Marxism wrote: > >> In fact, the levels inside containment in the melted down reactor are >> the SAME as they've always been as this was, contrary to the article >> Dennis so thoughtfully provided is the FIRST "reading" ever...so how >> has it gone up??? >> > > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * proof positive you (and now Jeff) didnt actually read the article. Quote: """Continuous, intense radiation, at 530 sieverts an hour (4 sieverts is a lethal level), was widely reported in early February 2017 – as if this were a new phenomenon. It’s not. Three reactors at Fukushima melted down during the earthquake-tsunami disaster on March 3, 2011, and the meltdowns never stopped. Radiation levels have been out of control ever since. As Fairewinds Energy Education noted in an email February 10: Although this robotic measurement just occurred, this high radiation reading was anticipated and has existed inside the damaged Unit 2 atomic reactor since the disaster began nearly 6 years ago…. As Fairewinds has said for 6 years, there are no easy solutions because groundwater is in direct contact with the nuclear corium (melted fuel) at Fukushima Daiichi. What’s new (and not very new, at that) is the official acknowledgement of the highest radiation levels yet measured there, by a factor of seven (the previously measured high was 73 sieverts an hour in 2012). The highest radiation level measured at Chernobyl was 300 sieverts an hour. What this all means, as anyone paying attention well knows, is that the triple-meltdown Fukushima disaster is still out of control.""" so, while the radiation levels may indeed be in a state of SAME, our SAMPLING of that state is getting more accurate as we get closer. TEPCO hid behind the lower numbers, but now that the robotic cameras are getting knocked out after 2 hours of use, robotic cleaning's got problems https://www.techworm.net/2017/02/even-6-years-extreme-radiation-levels-inside-fukushima-deep-fry-cleanup-robot.html And, besides, its IN the containment vessel! does "IN" have a meaning here? Les On 02/13/2017 10:58 AM, DW via Marxism wrote: In fact, the levels inside containment in the melted down reactor are the SAME as they've always been as this was, contrary to the article Dennis so thoughtfully provided is the FIRST "reading" ever...so how has it gone up??? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/13/17 11:41 AM, Jeff via Marxism wrote: One who is interested in the details of a radioactive accident (or any other physical system) should rather seek an article written by a qualified scientist, not by an author whose impressive qualifications are listed as "over 40 years experience in theatre, radio, TV, print journalism, and non-fiction, including 20 years in the Vermont judiciary." I mean, really. Not to speak of his citing Zero Hedge in the article. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2017-02-13 16:58, DW via Marxism wrote: http://blog.safecast.org/2017/02/no-radiation-levels-at-fukushima-daiichi-are-not-rising/ David is right: the article Dennis posted is sensationalist and in most respects inaccurate or misleading. I think nuclear power is a bad idea, but you don't argue against it effectively by adopting propaganda that can be easily disproven. The radioactive material remaining at the reactor that they are trying to entomb (the safest thing to do with it!), may well be dangerous to anyone remaining in the area and to the groundwater, if it's leaking. Any concern involving that amount of material contaminating the pacific ocean displays an utter inability to appreciate the vastness of the ocean and its incredible volume of water. One who is interested in the details of a radioactive accident (or any other physical system) should rather seek an article written by a qualified scientist, not by an author whose impressive qualifications are listed as "over 40 years experience in theatre, radio, TV, print journalism, and non-fiction, including 20 years in the Vermont judiciary." I mean, really. - Jeff _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fukushima hasn't gone away
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Every year since the accident at Fukushima, starting in February, the professional anti-nuclear industry rolls out yet more fear an dread in order to keep the issue of the 'worsening disaster' in the news. This is an example of this sort of methodology, and in this case, it is 100% inaccurate. We get the title sub-head with this one "Even Fox News reports radiation at “unimaginable levels”. I love when experts in filed of nuclear physics, such as "Fox News", are liberally quoted to prove the "oh! it must be true!". In fact, the levels inside containment in the melted down reactor are the SAME as they've always been as this was, contrary to the article Dennis so thoughtfully provided is the FIRST "reading" ever...so how has it gone up??? In fact, give the laws of the universe, with no critical fission reaction going on inside the reactor containment vessel, there can be no increase in radiation. It's completely false. And, besides, its IN the containment vessel! So of course the readings are going to be high...but not higher than previously given that no new radiation is being created. This extremely well written article will explain the issue and the science if one is guided more by science that tabloid type headlines: http://blog.safecast.org/2017/02/no-radiation-levels-at-fukushima-daiichi-are-not-rising/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
