Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi Doug, "Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on." Well now, Mick Dundee couldn't have said it better. Best wishes, Greg Lindh From: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:34:50 -0500 Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, David - There has been a cold war going on down there to define who has rights to market alcoholic drinks called "Pisco" (If you don't think this is important - very seriously-, think again!!!), and the fight for control portions of the sea between Peru and Chile is still ablating. It isn't the village that is of interest. It is the fight for land and sea, and national pride. The land of the Desaguadero River where the fall is, is near the outlet to the ocean that Chile appropriated in war victory against Bolivia/Peru and I suspect that unofficial military activities are common in that zone, as well as a state of alert on both sides, and also that there is an underlying fear from this. As outsiders from this conflict, the best we can imagine... Jan - As you say (most of us including you could) think before we post, too, though I don't object to your post either. The very few prior comments you have made seem very educated, so I really wonder, why hadn't you said anything throughout the barrage of bashing of people, corruption and the "filth" there, and now not expect that this impression is prevalent and accepted by a lot of list members? This is an exotic and majestic area to visit, though lacking in hygene by the cultural standards of many outsiders. The list has been fixated on the negative and a meteoric attention span. Why don't you ask what Bob Haag about his recent vacation in the wonderful area, he probably has seen enough in his life to give a different perspective on their hygene and culture. Bob W. - David off the list? Eighty-six that possee! Best wishes and health, Doug Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. - Original Message - From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bob WALKER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me vomit all over this "LIST". And don't ever visit my website which contains a quarter of a million words bringing the most current meteorite research to those interested, including total morons like you. You are hereby forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute anything else to this LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi, Doug, While on a trip to another village, Nasrudin lost his favorite copy of the Qur'an. Several weeks later, a goat walked up to Nasrudin, carrying the Qur'an in its mouth. Nasrudin couldn't believe his eyes. He took the precious book out of the goat's mouth, raised his eyes heavenward and exclaimed, "It's a miracle! It's a miracle!" "Not really," said the goat. "Your name and address is written inside the cover." That, and 49 others at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nasrudin Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin More tales (and some of the same) at: http://www.afghan-network.net/Funny/1.html More tales at: http://www.immediex.com/mullanasrudin.html An entire book of Nasrudin at Project Guetenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244 That should keep you Nasrudinized for a while. But before I sign off, let me tell you a little story about Nasrudin The Smuggler... Nasrudin the smuggler was leading a donkey that had bundles of straw on its back. An experienced border inspector spotted Nasrudin coming to his border. "Halt," the inspector said. "What is your business here?" "I am an honest smuggler!" replied Nasrudin. "Oh, really?" said the inspector. "Well, let me search those straw bundles. If I find something in them, then you are required to pay a border fee!" "Do as you wish, "Nasrudin replied, "but you will not find anything in those bundles." The inspector intensively searched and took apart the bundles, but could not find a single thing in them. He turned to Nasrudin and said, "You have managed to get one by me today. You may pass the border." Nasrudin crossed the border with his donkey while the annoyed inspector looked on. And then the very next day, Nasrudin once again came to the border with a straw-carrying donkey. The inspector saw Nasrudin coming and thought, "I'll get him for sure this time." He checked the bundles of straw again, and then searched through Nasrudin's clothing, and even went through the donkey's harness. But once again he came up empty handed and had to let Nasrudin pass. This same pattern continued every day for several years, and every day Nasrudin wore more and more extravagant clothing and jewelry that indicated he was getting wealthier. Eventually, the inspector retired from his longtime job, but even in retirement he still wondered about the man with the straw-carrying donkey. "I should have checked that donkey's mouth more extensively," he thought to himself. "Or maybe he hid something in the donkey's rectum." Then one day he spotted Nasrudin's face in a crowd. "Hey," the inspector said, "I know you! You are that man who came to my border everyday for all those years with a straw-carrying donkey. Please, sir, I must talk to you." Nasrudin came towards him and the inspector continued talking. "My friend, I always wondered what you were smuggling past my border everyday. Just between you and me, you must tell me. I must know. I have to know. No harm will come to you. Tell me: What in the world were you smuggling?!" Nasrudin replied, "Donkeys." Sterling K. Webb -------------- - Original Message - From: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Porter aside, it reminds me of a Sufi story I heard as a tyke. Mulla Nasarudin saw a group of men (possibly horsemen or soldiers), he panicked and found a pit jumped down to hide inside, and worried terribly what that would do to him. Unfortunately for him, he began shaking, as he did not escape their notice. They hastily came over, from above the pit one voice yelled down as he was terrorized, "Sir, what ön earth are you doing down there? The Mulla answered, That, my friend, is not a simple question. I am here because you are there ... I wish I could see the text of this wonderful tale somewhere ... Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi Jan, Man, I can imagine! Thanks for the colorful insight for your adventures Jan! Anyway, 'Desag' is just another border town like border towns everywhere as far as it sounds. You've got to admit, there must have been some enlightening moments that evening after such a tiring day?! Next time you are in town, please join Sterling and myself. Those naughty youths might even pay a hotel to come haul us out:-) Best wishes and thanks for your kind and understandable clarification. I'm sure the inhabitants are Aymara, too. The con artists are just trying to find a better life as hard as that is to accept for a tourist who needs to be vigilent for their own good. When your back is against the wall and the cards are down and you feel abandoned, whether of Aymara, or European origin, I'd do a wild guess that anyone who isn't stuck in the area by birth is unlikely to stick around too long... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi Dough, thanks. There's just one thing with the people, I did not explain clearly, so this is my fault. I want to distinguish between the people of Carancas (Aymara), who live as farmers and were very friendly to me and also very clever...they knew what they were selling - and *some* people in Desaguadero (possibly Aymara as well) who were seeking their fortune in drinking and in trying to squeeze the money out of me. Unfortunately, I arrived in Desag at 2 a.m. and had to spent quite some hours with the local youth, and this was definitively not my very best time... But since I know the bars in Desag, I know the word "filthy" better than before! Greets, Jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gesendet: 20.10.07 00:41:15 An: Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi Jan, No problem at all, I just think this is too complicated than most are willing to realize, including poverty as I have been reminded as well, and the framework under which the list as a group (we can't single out anyone in particular as we are in this together) has painted of the locality. hah! as if these problems of corruption were unique to this little corner of the world, right. I had no problem with your post, but its content suggested * to me * a slight double standard, that is all, nothing personal. Most people on this list say what they mean in an unadulterated fashion as you already saw and most of us are all too familiar with. I would never blame the Aymara for anything, * especially * for not being themselves. This, by the way, includes not running to the crater and pushing everyone else out of the way to get their God-given endowment, and then not feeling envious, etc. of those who did. So please reconsider your thinking about anything being their fault. I could be wrong, but these are probably not part of their cultural upbringings, schooled or not, and they deserve our respect for that. They certainly have mine. I don't have any qualms with calling a dirty place: dirty, either, and I am sure there are a long list of reasons that have caused this. As far as the "lost value" you mention, this is an even more complicated question that makes my head hurt, my best solution would be to crack open Porter and to say it looks like I will never have the opportunity to possess this meteorite. Porter aside, it reminds me of a Sufi story I heard as a tyke. Mulla Nasarudin saw a group of men (possibly horsemen or soldiers), he panicked and found a pit jumped down to hide inside, and worried terribly what that would do to him. Unfortunately for him, he began shaking, as he did not escape their notice. They hastily came over, from above the pit one voice yelled down as he was terrorized, "Sir, what ön earth are you doing down there? The Mulla answered, That, my friend, is not a simple question. I am here because you are there ... I wish I could see the text of this wonderful tale somewhere ... Best health, and above all WELCOME, and thanks for your perspectives as well! And for putting up with my ramblings, Doug - Original Message - From: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi Dough, list, yes, I understand that the list may have got a rather negative impression of Peru due to these very ugly experience Mike and his colleagues had to encounter. I live in Peru and visited Desaguadero and Carancas myself and had to make some bad experience too with people trying to rip me off there. It was n
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Ditto and ditto, Jan. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: "Darren Garrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:31:58 +0200, you wrote: BTW: I am new to this list and I appeciate the interresting information and opinions I found here! Thanks a lot for that! Welcome to the list, and nice photos. http://www.meteoros.de/php/viewtopic.php?t=5621&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi Dough, thanks. There's just one thing with the people, I did not explain clearly, so this is my fault. I want to distinguish between the people of Carancas (Aymara), who live as farmers and were very friendly to me and also very clever...they knew what they were selling - and *some* people in Desaguadero (possibly Aymara as well) who were seeking their fortune in drinking and in trying to squeeze the money out of me. Unfortunately, I arrived in Desag at 2 a.m. and had to spent quite some hours with the local youth, and this was definitively not my very best time... But since I know the bars in Desag, I know the word "filthy" better than before! Greets, Jan > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Gesendet: 20.10.07 00:41:15 > An: > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > > Hi Jan, > > No problem at all, I just think this is too complicated than most are > willing to realize, including poverty as I have been reminded as well, and > the framework under which the list as a group (we can't single out anyone in > particular as we are in this together) has painted of the locality. hah! as > if these problems of corruption were unique to this little corner of the > world, right. > > I had no problem with your post, but its content suggested * to me * a > slight double standard, that is all, nothing personal. Most people on this > list say what they mean in an unadulterated fashion as you already saw and > most of us are all too familiar with. > > I would never blame the Aymara for anything, * especially * for not being > themselves. This, by the way, includes not running to the crater and > pushing everyone else out of the way to get their God-given endowment, and > then not feeling envious, etc. of those who did. So please reconsider your > thinking about anything being their fault. I could be wrong, but these are > probably not part of their cultural upbringings, schooled or not, and they > deserve our respect for that. They certainly have mine. > > I don't have any qualms with calling a dirty place: dirty, either, and I am > sure there are a long list of reasons that have caused this. As far as the > "lost value" you mention, this is an even more complicated question that > makes my head hurt, my best solution would be to crack open Porter and to > say it looks like I will never have the opportunity to possess this > meteorite. > > Porter aside, it reminds me of a Sufi story I heard as a tyke. > Mulla Nasarudin saw a group of men (possibly horsemen or soldiers), he > panicked and found a pit jumped down to hide inside, and worried terribly > what that would do to him. Unfortunately for him, he began shaking, as he > did not escape their notice. They hastily came over, from above the pit one > voice yelled down as he was terrorized, "Sir, what ön earth are you doing > down there? The Mulla answered, That, my friend, is not a simple question. > I am here because you are there ... I wish I could see the text of this > wonderful tale somewhere ... > > Best health, and above all WELCOME, and thanks for your perspectives as > well! > And for putting up with my ramblings, > > Doug > > - Original Message - > From: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: ; "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:31 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > > > Hi Dough, list, > > yes, I understand that the list may have got a rather negative impression of > Peru due to these very ugly experience Mike and his colleagues had to > encounter. I live in Peru and visited Desaguadero and Carancas myself and > had to make some bad experience too with people trying to rip me off there. > It was not quite as dangerous as it was for Mike because I kept myself in > the background. After reading Mikes report, I was glad I did so. And, like > it or not, Desaguadero *is* a filthy place. > > Nevertheless, remember Mikes report, it was not the townspeople of Carancas > he had his problems with. It was the corrupt police of Desaguadero - and > corruption really is perhaps the biggest problem of this country. The people > of Carancas were trying the best they could from this unique incident, who > could blame them for that? > > Maybe some folks in Desaquadero are now beginning to realize what > opportunity they missed. There was a stone with a value more than gold > falling from the sky, and who got it? Some US-Americans, some guys from > Bolivia and a German! But that is their own fault. Why couldn't the same > p
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi Jan, No problem at all, I just think this is too complicated than most are willing to realize, including poverty as I have been reminded as well, and the framework under which the list as a group (we can't single out anyone in particular as we are in this together) has painted of the locality. hah! as if these problems of corruption were unique to this little corner of the world, right. I had no problem with your post, but its content suggested * to me * a slight double standard, that is all, nothing personal. Most people on this list say what they mean in an unadulterated fashion as you already saw and most of us are all too familiar with. I would never blame the Aymara for anything, * especially * for not being themselves. This, by the way, includes not running to the crater and pushing everyone else out of the way to get their God-given endowment, and then not feeling envious, etc. of those who did. So please reconsider your thinking about anything being their fault. I could be wrong, but these are probably not part of their cultural upbringings, schooled or not, and they deserve our respect for that. They certainly have mine. I don't have any qualms with calling a dirty place: dirty, either, and I am sure there are a long list of reasons that have caused this. As far as the "lost value" you mention, this is an even more complicated question that makes my head hurt, my best solution would be to crack open Porter and to say it looks like I will never have the opportunity to possess this meteorite. Porter aside, it reminds me of a Sufi story I heard as a tyke. Mulla Nasarudin saw a group of men (possibly horsemen or soldiers), he panicked and found a pit jumped down to hide inside, and worried terribly what that would do to him. Unfortunately for him, he began shaking, as he did not escape their notice. They hastily came over, from above the pit one voice yelled down as he was terrorized, "Sir, what ön earth are you doing down there? The Mulla answered, That, my friend, is not a simple question. I am here because you are there ... I wish I could see the text of this wonderful tale somewhere ... Best health, and above all WELCOME, and thanks for your perspectives as well! And for putting up with my ramblings, Doug - Original Message - From: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi Dough, list, yes, I understand that the list may have got a rather negative impression of Peru due to these very ugly experience Mike and his colleagues had to encounter. I live in Peru and visited Desaguadero and Carancas myself and had to make some bad experience too with people trying to rip me off there. It was not quite as dangerous as it was for Mike because I kept myself in the background. After reading Mikes report, I was glad I did so. And, like it or not, Desaguadero *is* a filthy place. Nevertheless, remember Mikes report, it was not the townspeople of Carancas he had his problems with. It was the corrupt police of Desaguadero - and corruption really is perhaps the biggest problem of this country. The people of Carancas were trying the best they could from this unique incident, who could blame them for that? Maybe some folks in Desaquadero are now beginning to realize what opportunity they missed. There was a stone with a value more than gold falling from the sky, and who got it? Some US-Americans, some guys from Bolivia and a German! But that is their own fault. Why couldn't the same people who did what they could to get as much money out of me (I had a nice little fight in spanish - words only) use their energy to get that stones that were lying around for a week just before their noses, and make money out of them? Call it lack of education or whatever, but it is sad to say: if no strangers would have gone there, most of the meteorites may have just been thrown away! The news was in the media in Peru for days, and they do have TV, radio, internet and newspapers and are able to use it, if they like. Most people here did know what happened. It is a shame what happened to Mike, and it is a even bigger shame for Peru what is happening to the (presumed) main mass, but there is still no reason to insult the people of this town or country in general. It's rather something to think about what is going wrong in this world. BTW: I am new to this list and I appeciate the interresting information and opinions I found here! Thanks a lot for that! Best regards, Jan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gesendet: 19.10.07 20:37:20 An: Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, David - There has been a cold war going on do
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:31:58 +0200, you wrote: >BTW: I am new to this list and I appeciate the interresting information and >opinions I found here! Thanks a lot for that! > Welcome to the list, and nice photos. http://www.meteoros.de/php/viewtopic.php?t=5621&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hey Sterling, Sounds to be just what the doctor ordered ... and, of course, you're invited to one, too! Meet you downstream on the flats of Poopó, and we can plan our incursion from there... I think I'll have a Ceviche Pisco Sour with fish and salt from the lake for that authentic flavor. Cuy for lunch. (Cuy is prohibitively expensive for locals as I can recall from my last trip.) The wretched poverty others'interests have left the Aymara stuck in, is a lousy situation, when, despite their talents, they can't even afford a flush-toilet, let alone their favorite of Cuy. No problem to chew the local stuff, too, if we need to break an ethereal altitude hangover? ... ¡ Salud ! (Cheers!) ;-) Doug - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Meteorite List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hola, Doug, Ai! I forgot the most important part --- The Piscos!! Does this mean I owe you a Pisco Sour? Sterling -- - Original Message - From: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, David - There has been a cold war going on down there to define who has rights to market alcoholic drinks called "Pisco" (If you don't think this is important - very seriously-, think again!!!), and the fight for control portions of the sea between Peru and Chile is still ablating. It isn't the village that is of interest. It is the fight for land and sea, and national pride. The land of the Desaguadero River where the fall is, is near the outlet to the ocean that Chile appropriated in war victory against Bolivia/Peru and I suspect that unofficial military activities are common in that zone, as well as a state of alert on both sides, and also that there is an underlying fear from this. As outsiders from this conflict, the best we can imagine... Jan - As you say (most of us including you could) think before we post, too, though I don't object to your post either. The very few prior comments you have made seem very educated, so I really wonder, why hadn't you said anything throughout the barrage of bashing of people, corruption and the "filth" there, and now not expect that this impression is prevalent and accepted by a lot of list members? This is an exotic and majestic area to visit, though lacking in hygene by the cultural standards of many outsiders. The list has been fixated on the negative and a meteoric attention span. Why don't you ask what Bob Haag about his recent vacation in the wonderful area, he probably has seen enough in his life to give a different perspective on their hygene and culture. Bob W. - David off the list? Eighty-six that possee! Best wishes and health, Doug Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. - Original Message - From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bob WALKER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me vomit all over this "LIST". And don't ever visit my website which contains a quarter of a million words bringing the most current meteorite research to those interested, including total morons like you. You are hereby forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute anything else to this LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi Dough, list, yes, I understand that the list may have got a rather negative impression of Peru due to these very ugly experience Mike and his colleagues had to encounter. I live in Peru and visited Desaguadero and Carancas myself and had to make some bad experience too with people trying to rip me off there. It was not quite as dangerous as it was for Mike because I kept myself in the background. After reading Mikes report, I was glad I did so. And, like it or not, Desaguadero *is* a filthy place. Nevertheless, remember Mikes report, it was not the townspeople of Carancas he had his problems with. It was the corrupt police of Desaguadero - and corruption really is perhaps the biggest problem of this country. The people of Carancas were trying the best they could from this unique incident, who could blame them for that? Maybe some folks in Desaquadero are now beginning to realize what opportunity they missed. There was a stone with a value more than gold falling from the sky, and who got it? Some US-Americans, some guys from Bolivia and a German! But that is their own fault. Why couldn't the same people who did what they could to get as much money out of me (I had a nice little fight in spanish - words only) use their energy to get that stones that were lying around for a week just before their noses, and make money out of them? Call it lack of education or whatever, but it is sad to say: if no strangers would have gone there, most of the meteorites may have just been thrown away! The news was in the media in Peru for days, and they do have TV, radio, internet and newspapers and are able to use it, if they like. Most people here did know what happened. It is a shame what happened to Mike, and it is a even bigger shame for Peru what is happening to the (presumed) main mass, but there is still no reason to insult the people of this town or country in general. It's rather something to think about what is going wrong in this world. BTW: I am new to this list and I appeciate the interresting information and opinions I found here! Thanks a lot for that! Best regards, Jan > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Gesendet: 19.10.07 20:37:20 > An: > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > > Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, > > David - There has been a cold war going on down there to define who has > rights to market alcoholic drinks called "Pisco" (If you don't think this is > important - very seriously-, think again!!!), and the fight for control > portions of the sea between Peru and Chile is still ablating. It isn't the > village that is of interest. It is the fight for land and sea, and national > pride. The land of the Desaguadero River where the fall is, is near the > outlet to the ocean that Chile appropriated in war victory against > Bolivia/Peru and I suspect that unofficial military activities are common in > that zone, as well as a state of alert on both sides, and also that there is > an underlying fear from this. As outsiders from this conflict, the best we > can imagine... > > Jan - As you say (most of us including you could) think before we post, too, > though I don't object to your post either. The very few prior comments you > have made seem very educated, so I really wonder, why hadn't you said > anything throughout the barrage of bashing of people, corruption and the > "filth" there, and now not expect that this impression is prevalent and > accepted by a lot of list members? This is an exotic and majestic area to > visit, though lacking in hygene by the cultural standards of many outsiders. > The list has been fixated on the negative and a meteoric attention span. > Why don't you ask what Bob Haag about his recent vacation in the wonderful > area, he probably has seen enough in his life to give a different > perspective on their hygene and culture. > > Bob W. - David off the list? Eighty-six that possee! > > Best wishes and health, > Doug > > Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See > those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when > you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing > over who owns the dog they live on. > > > > - Original Message - > From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Bob WALKER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:53 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > > > > If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me > > vomit all over this "LIST". And don't
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hola, Doug, Ai! I forgot the most important part --- The Piscos!! Does this mean I owe you a Pisco Sour? Sterling -- - Original Message - From: "mexicodoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, David - There has been a cold war going on down there to define who has rights to market alcoholic drinks called "Pisco" (If you don't think this is important - very seriously-, think again!!!), and the fight for control portions of the sea between Peru and Chile is still ablating. It isn't the village that is of interest. It is the fight for land and sea, and national pride. The land of the Desaguadero River where the fall is, is near the outlet to the ocean that Chile appropriated in war victory against Bolivia/Peru and I suspect that unofficial military activities are common in that zone, as well as a state of alert on both sides, and also that there is an underlying fear from this. As outsiders from this conflict, the best we can imagine... Jan - As you say (most of us including you could) think before we post, too, though I don't object to your post either. The very few prior comments you have made seem very educated, so I really wonder, why hadn't you said anything throughout the barrage of bashing of people, corruption and the "filth" there, and now not expect that this impression is prevalent and accepted by a lot of list members? This is an exotic and majestic area to visit, though lacking in hygene by the cultural standards of many outsiders. The list has been fixated on the negative and a meteoric attention span. Why don't you ask what Bob Haag about his recent vacation in the wonderful area, he probably has seen enough in his life to give a different perspective on their hygene and culture. Bob W. - David off the list? Eighty-six that possee! Best wishes and health, Doug Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. - Original Message - From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bob WALKER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me > vomit all over this "LIST". And don't ever visit my website which contains > a quarter of a million words bringing the most current meteorite research > to those interested, including total morons like you. You are hereby > forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute anything else to this > LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! > > David > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi, All, First, I have a correction (or two) to make to my interpretation of the interview. The interview was conducted, it turns out, on the 22nd of September, well before Mike Farmer or Bob Haag and Carl Esparza came to Carancas, so the "Big Scoundrel" is the meteorite itself. The second part of the interview, which starts at the point where we don't have the questions translated, with the description of being knocked down twice, is with another individual, a 67-year-old who was apparently much closer to the impact point. Secondly, why would the inhabitants of a tiny village of herders immediately assume they were under attack, being bombed with devastating weapons, and by Chile? > Who the heck would invade Carancas? To understand that, you would have to know about The War of The Pacific (1879-1883). To understand how that works, I suggest a quick and easy read of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific Why does isolated land-locked Bolivia not have access to the Pacific coast just like its neighbor Peru? Who would fight the biggest war in South America over the Atacama Desert and why? Why would (at one time) Argentina have a Pacific Coast strip when Bolivia did not? Why would Patagonia be part of Argentina when it was settled by the Chileans? Why would Peru bear the brunt of a war fought between Bolivia and Chile? Hey, I'm not going to spoil the soap opera of history here, with a very real and not-at-all comic war, with last stands and legendary sea battles, amphibious invasions and diplomatic complexity, but the last part of the peace treaty wasn't implemented until 1999, and tensions are sometimes high in the region, so it's NOT "unreasonable" to assume that it is war come again if you're being "bombed." Wars, overall, are never about the richness of a spot; they're about "the spot," the place on the planet. For example, whatever the causes, it's obvious the US is not in Iraq because its houses are so beautiful, nor the countryside so lush and green, nor because we envy their great garbage collection. Yet... there we are. If the United States decides to destroy your mud-brick and tin-roof home-sweet-home, the F-16's will be dropping 500 pound bombs. It seems that bombed people are suitably impressed by that event, so it's not surprising that a "bomb" TWENTY times more powerful would --- what shall we say? -- make a strong impression! It is clear the event was completely, even existentially, shocking to a quiet enduring people in a harsh but very calm place. To me, the most poignant part of the interview is where it becomes obvious that the impact event has seriously upset their innate sense of how the universe works: "Can another such thing suddenly fall down? Another?" It's their cosmic "9-11." Sterling K. Webb Footnote: It wouldn't hurt us to worry more about Apophis and similar such rocks, spend a little more money on finding and tracking them, yada, yada, before we become an example of the shantytown planet taken by existential surprise. --- - Original Message - From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Meteorite List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS quoted from Sterling's article: "I did not think that a planet piece has fallen down, or anything like that, but at that moment, I thought that we have been attacked by an enemy, from the air. Then, I thought that there was one [plane] alone. I have looked at the air, to see where is the plane that has bombed us this way, more or less imagining it. [But] it had not been like that. Then I said that it goes to finish off one more place, no more for us." I find it mind-boggling that a a tiny rundown corrupt "village" (really a squalor) would thing that someone was attacking those destitute people to steal perhaps the garbage in the streets?, or maybe to steal the human waste from the around their shacks?! Who the heck would invade Carancas? That fear must be genetically ingrained in their brains because it isn't a reasoned consideration. David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hello Doug, Thanks for the thoughtful reply to my skepticism represented in my post to the list. I am now integrating this new picture of a Pisco alcohol war mentality to those looking skyward in Desaguadero believing in bombers out to get them. Still, I have managed to narrow down my incoming list messages a little more which is all good. Mucho regards, David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi David, Bob and Jan, List, David - There has been a cold war going on down there to define who has rights to market alcoholic drinks called "Pisco" (If you don't think this is important - very seriously-, think again!!!), and the fight for control portions of the sea between Peru and Chile is still ablating. It isn't the village that is of interest. It is the fight for land and sea, and national pride. The land of the Desaguadero River where the fall is, is near the outlet to the ocean that Chile appropriated in war victory against Bolivia/Peru and I suspect that unofficial military activities are common in that zone, as well as a state of alert on both sides, and also that there is an underlying fear from this. As outsiders from this conflict, the best we can imagine... Jan - As you say (most of us including you could) think before we post, too, though I don't object to your post either. The very few prior comments you have made seem very educated, so I really wonder, why hadn't you said anything throughout the barrage of bashing of people, corruption and the "filth" there, and now not expect that this impression is prevalent and accepted by a lot of list members? This is an exotic and majestic area to visit, though lacking in hygene by the cultural standards of many outsiders. The list has been fixated on the negative and a meteoric attention span. Why don't you ask what Bob Haag about his recent vacation in the wonderful area, he probably has seen enough in his life to give a different perspective on their hygene and culture. Bob W. - David off the list? Eighty-six that possee! Best wishes and health, Doug Aborigines don't own the land.They belong to it. It's like their mother. See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. - Original Message - From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bob WALKER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me vomit all over this "LIST". And don't ever visit my website which contains a quarter of a million words bringing the most current meteorite research to those interested, including total morons like you. You are hereby forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute anything else to this LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Jason, I stand by my post to the list. Thanks for your opinion. David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
David, All, The point is that if such a violent incident had occurred in rural-any-small-town here in the US, people's minds would undoubtedly jump straight to the least rational cause - terrorism. You may say otherwise, but you know it's trueeven though the supposition that terrorists would have any reason to attack anything other than a building or person who was highly symbolic or economically vital to our infrastructure or identity as a nation. Regardless of who says it, if it doesn't belong, it doesn't belong. As Jan said, "Your comments are not very helpful." They simply disparaged and insulted people who are no different than those in the same economic and social demographic who live in this country, and furthermore, they have less access to any form of higher education as well as exposure to worldly events as do those who live here - and some of those who live here would probably go on to say that it was some sort of a warning from godregarding what, I have no idea, but those voices always seem to come out of the cracks following any sort of disaster... Needless to say, it's simply uncalled for, and I don't know why you're getting so uppity about this, as you were clearly in the wrong in writing that. Your website may be a great asset to the meteorite-collecting (and research) community as a whole, but that just doesn't justify what you said. To be frank, I don't particularly care about your initial email; there's been enough on that subject along those lines, and it's been talked both ways for weeks now. The following responses, on the other hand, were extremely inappropriate. It wouldn't matter if Nininger himself had posted that to the list; he would still have been wrong in doing it. Cool off... Jason On 10/19/07, David Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make > me vomit all over this "LIST". And don't ever visit my website which > contains a quarter of a million words bringing the most current > meteorite research to those interested, including total morons like you. > You are hereby forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute > anything else to this LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! > > David > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
If Art removes me I'll be happy to leave. It's people like you who make me vomit all over this "LIST". And don't ever visit my website which contains a quarter of a million words bringing the most current meteorite research to those interested, including total morons like you. You are hereby forbidden to visit it. I do not want to contribute anything else to this LIST or to you, you small-brained idiot. Kiss my ass! David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
David Lets see what the other listoids think about your unhelpful comments Lets check the archives just to check what useful commnets you have posted this year - hmmm not many Lets email Art to see if you should be removed from the list Lets use you as an example to excise all that is wrong with the list lately Thankyou for bringing this matter to a head - Original Message - From: "David Weir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jan Hattenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Meteorite List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS eat shit __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
eat shit __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Dear David, you should better distinguish between the corrupt authorities an the townspeople of Carancas. Your comments are not very helpful. Do you think that if that thing would have come down in a remote village somewhere in the US or Europe, the people there would have certainly known immediately what it was? First think - then post. Regards, Jan > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: David Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Gesendet: 19.10.07 13:27:30 > An: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > CC: Meteorite List > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > > quoted from Sterling's article: > > "I did not think that a planet > piece has fallen down, or anything like that, but at that > moment, I thought that we have been attacked by an > enemy, from the air. Then, I thought that there was one > [plane] alone. I have looked at the air, to see where is > the plane that has bombed us this way, more or less > imagining it. [But] it had not been like that. Then I said > that it goes to finish off one more place, no more for us." > > I find it mind-boggling that a a tiny rundown corrupt "village" (really > a squalor) would thing that someone was attacking those destitute people > to steal perhaps the garbage in the streets?, or maybe to steal the > human waste from the around their shacks?! Who the heck would invade > Carancas? That fear must be genetically ingrained in their brains > because it isn't a reasoned consideration. > > David > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsstärkeren E-Mail-Postfach! Mehr Infos unter http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021131 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
quoted from Sterling's article: "I did not think that a planet piece has fallen down, or anything like that, but at that moment, I thought that we have been attacked by an enemy, from the air. Then, I thought that there was one [plane] alone. I have looked at the air, to see where is the plane that has bombed us this way, more or less imagining it. [But] it had not been like that. Then I said that it goes to finish off one more place, no more for us." I find it mind-boggling that a a tiny rundown corrupt "village" (really a squalor) would thing that someone was attacking those destitute people to steal perhaps the garbage in the streets?, or maybe to steal the human waste from the around their shacks?! Who the heck would invade Carancas? That fear must be genetically ingrained in their brains because it isn't a reasoned consideration. David __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Hi, A 10-ton (2 meter sphere) object impacting at 2 km/s produces the equivalent of 4.78 tons of TNT. The seismic measurement in Peru by the IGP was 4.9 tons of TNT. It would seem to me that a "parent object" big enough to cough up a ten-ton hairball might have left other chunks scattered about the Altiplano. They can't all have gone into the Lake. I still have trouble with the notion that 20,000 pounds of meteorite survives in the crater. On the other hand, if the impact spread all of the 20,000 pounds out over the full reported area of the ejecta blanket, it works out to 8 milligrams (0.008 grams) of dust per square centimeter, an amount so tiny you'd hardly notice it, except near the rim, where people did notice and collect it. Is it a "clever" meteorite, hiding in plain sight? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Interesting. This supports my belief that this was a relatively low energy impact- a 2 meter object traveling at 1-2 km/s, not ablating. A larger parent exploded in the air, contributing to or fully producing the measured infrasound and seismic signal. A fragment survived and produced the crater. The parent body protected that fragment, just as the Sikhote-Alin fragments were protected by being part of a much larger body until the last few seconds. I expect the estimate of the explosion being 1km from the witness is on the short side; several kilometers is more likely, and there's little doubt that most people are totally incapable of accurately judging the distance to an event like this. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS > Hi, All, > >I've found a Spanish document of an interview with > an inhabitant of Carancas, in particular their local leader. > He was interviewed in his native language, Aymara, by > a native Aymara speaker who has translated the interview > into Spanish... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS
Interesting. This supports my belief that this was a relatively low energy impact- a 2 meter object traveling at 1-2 km/s, not ablating. A larger parent exploded in the air, contributing to or fully producing the measured infrasound and seismic signal. A fragment survived and produced the crater. The parent body protected that fragment, just as the Sikhote-Alin fragments were protected by being part of a much larger body until the last few seconds. I expect the estimate of the explosion being 1km from the witness is on the short side; several kilometers is more likely, and there's little doubt that most people are totally incapable of accurately judging the distance to an event like this. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] INTERVIEW WITH CARANCAS LOCALS Hi, All, I've found a Spanish document of an interview with an inhabitant of Carancas, in particular their local leader. He was interviewed in his native language, Aymara, by a native Aymara speaker who has translated the interview into Spanish... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
