Microformats *do* seek to change behaviour (was: XFN usage stats and Re: [uf-discuss] rel=muse implies romantic relationship?)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Subject: Re: XFN usage stats and Re: [uf-discuss] rel=muse implies romantic relationship? Did you perhaps forget to change that? microformats do not try to alter people's publishing behavior in an unnatural way - and ask of them to make openly honest what is not already so - unlike a priori formats efforts which seek to change behavior as such with metadata etc. that they wish people would simply magically start publishing. Perhaps you missed this comment: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedbackcurid=1777diff=0oldid=11198rcid=20574 in which a poster describes how he rejected hResume because it sought to change his publishing behaviour. -- Andy Mabbett * Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ * Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk * Are you using Microformats, yet: http://microformats.org/ ? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Mars Moon news stories
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 07/12/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both Mars and the Moon have been in the news this week: Where are we, with the 'Mars': http://microformats.org/wiki/mars and 'Luna': http://microformats.org/wiki/luna proposals? back atch'ya! You appear to be the major contributor to both of these proposals, so where are you with them? I've done everything I think I can (please let me know if I've missed something) and am waiting for some response from the community. What specific problems are causing hold-ups, if any? So far as I can see, the issues are: *should these be subsets of geo (i.e. add an extra class to geo, indicating which body is being referred to); or stand-alone (I'm happy either way; using the former may produce nonsensical results in existing parsers; this might be deemed of little concern). *should there be a class to indicate the mapping convention being used, or should the uF specify a default (as, I believe, is done with geo)? (Of course, there could be a default unless otherwise stated, meeting both needs). *lack of involvement from the relevant space scientists, not least as addressed in discussion (and apparent rejection by this community - or is the jury still out?) of the potential use of a dedicated mailing list. *naming issues (if any remain, I think they are relatively trivial and easily resolvable). Do you think a straw man might be due? -- Andy Mabbett * Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ * Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk * Are you using Microformats, yet: http://microformats.org/ ? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
This policy makes it easier to have a page header without piling up everything under section 1.. It gets ugly if it's done more than once on a page though. Regards, etc David On 12/11/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem of misaligned section-edit links is caused by using h[n] tags for headers, instead of the proper wiki markup (=, == etc.). I changed one page to fix that explaining so in my edit summary: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarificationsdiff=prevoldid=11212 and Tantek almost immediately reverted it, reintroducing the misaligned linking; and adding an instruction not to do so to: http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play -- Andy Mabbett * Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ * Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk * Are you using Microformats, yet: http://microformats.org/ ? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://www.onamine.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 12/11/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem of misaligned section-edit links is caused by using h[n] tags for headers, instead of the proper wiki markup (=, == etc.). [Please don't top-post] This policy makes it easier to have a page header without piling up everything under section 1.. What is that a problem? It doesn't seem to bother Wikipedia's many users. And is the damage it does to usability worth putting up with, for a marginal, if any, improvement in appearance? -- Andy Mabbett * Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ * Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk * Are you using Microformats, yet: http://microformats.org/ ? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
Hello, Why not use __NOTOC__ ? See ya On 12/11/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This policy makes it easier to have a page header without piling up everything under section 1.. It gets ugly if it's done more than once on a page though. Regards, etc David On 12/11/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem of misaligned section-edit links is caused by using h[n] tags for headers, instead of the proper wiki markup (=, == etc.). I changed one page to fix that explaining so in my edit summary: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarificationsdiff=prevoldid=11212 and Tantek almost immediately reverted it, reintroducing the misaligned linking; and adding an instruction not to do so to: http://microformats.org/wiki/how-to-play -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
On 12/11/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Why not use __NOTOC__ ? Start a wiki page, keep it in edit mode (i.e. don't save) and play with it. The current practice has its downfalls but seems to work esthetically well, with the downside that you have to click one down to edit. Regards, etc... ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
On 12/11/06 12:27 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Why not use __NOTOC__ ? I believe __NOTOC__ simply blocks the TOC from appearing at all, unless I'm mistaken. Charles, could you elaborate on how you would use __NOTOC__ to solve this problem of heading noise in TOCs? Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
Hello Tantek, You're correct, __NOTOC__ just blocks the TOC from appearing. Re-reading what was originally posted I can see that it won't help with this particular problem. See ya On 12/11/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/11/06 12:27 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Why not use __NOTOC__ ? I believe __NOTOC__ simply blocks the TOC from appearing at all, unless I'm mistaken. Charles, could you elaborate on how you would use __NOTOC__ to solve this problem of heading noise in TOCs? Thanks, Tantek -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Solution to wiki problem with misaligned section-edit links
On Dec 11, 2006, at 2:33 PM, David Janes wrote: Start a wiki page, keep it in edit mode (i.e. don't save) and play with it. The current practice has its downfalls but seems to work esthetically well, with the downside that you have to click one down to edit. I just realized that this thread is discussing one of my pet peeves. I can't believe I almost missed the opportunity to rant about how annoying it is to click on an edit link and have it open the wrong section. But even more annoying than that: when the links get pushed down, the last sections end up with no working edit links at all, so you have to guess at the section number if you want to edit those sections. So I'll put my vote in for avoiding whatever causes this to happen. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Microformats *do* seek to change behaviour (was: XFN usage stats and Re: [uf-discuss] rel=muse implies romantic relationship?)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tim White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Perhaps you missed this comment: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedbackcurid=1777diff=0oldid=11198rcid=20574 in which a poster describes how he rejected hResume because it sought to change his publishing behaviour. skills are optional, as are linking them. *all* microformats are optional; that's hardy the point. -- Andy Mabbett * Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ * Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk * Are you using Microformats, yet: http://microformats.org/ ? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Wiki-spam
On Dec 11, 2006, at 11:46 AM, Tim White wrote: Just notice that the How-to-edit help page [1] has some, um, colorful content at the moment. Someone want to revert that? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page This isn't a wikipedia mailing list. -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: XFN usage stats and Re: [uf-discuss] rel=muse implies romanticrelationship?
Sorry that I'm coming in a bit late on this, but in looking at rel=muse it's the only thing in the Microformat that is even close to applicable in a wide variety of cases yet I am completely uncomfortable using it except for in a few rare cases. OTOH, I could use any of the following if attached to professional: Respect, admire, impressed by,awed, revere, worship, idolize, iconize. If would be nice if there was a way to extend professional respect and admiration. -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: class=hack? Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep aboutMicroformats
Chris Messina wrote: The goal of this community is not to necessary act as a filter, but to adhere to a process for coming to some kind of consensus on a small number of formats that can be embedded in ordinary web pages. We look at widespread existing behavior and help massage that behavior in such a way so that we can help computers understand that data better. Chris, are you aware that Ian Hickson and Lachan Hunt on the WHATWG list are prescribing microformats as the generalized extension mechanism for HTML (whenever anyone asks for a more generic extension mechanism?) -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: class=hack? Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep aboutMicroformats
On 12/11/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, are you aware that Ian Hickson and Lachan Hunt on the WHATWG list are prescribing microformats as the generalized extension mechanism for HTML (whenever anyone asks for a more generic extension mechanism?) Mike, this isn't quite true. What's being prescribed are the techniques. Techniques using mechanisms already available in HTML. These are the same techniques that Microformateers apply to well defined problems to create a microformat. But just because microformats are a notable use case for these techniques doesn't mean that anything using those techniques is a microformat. What has been confirmed on the WHATWG list are the techniques available to extend HTML. Ben ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: class=hack? Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus repaboutMicroformats
Benjamin West wrote: Mike, this isn't quite true. What's being prescribed are the techniques. Techniques using mechanisms already available in HTML. These are the same techniques that Microformateers apply to well defined problems to create a microformat. But just because microformats are a notable use case for these techniques doesn't mean that anything using those techniques is a microformat. What has been confirmed on the WHATWG list are the techniques available to extend HTML. Why do these discussions have to be so circular?!? Okay, fine, I'll agree with your clarification because your point is really irrelevent to my concern. But I'll this time use your clarification to point out yet again that without a disambiguation process we'll have Balkanization of these techniques. I don't care what we call them: techniques or Microformats or anything else for that matter. All I care is that we get a simple disambiguation strategy included in the recommendation. -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats
Benjamin West wrote: I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is there a difference between lowercase microformats and uppercase microformats? lowercase microformats = unofficial semantic markup embedded in HTML uppercase microformats = Official Microformat -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats
Bruce D'Arcus wrote: In a world in which one CAN consider adding alternative attributes (HTML 5, etc.), it makes no sense to me one would simply say no. [I'm cross posting to uf-discuss and whatwg because Bruce's comment was made on uf-discuss but I've made the same point on WHATWG.] Bruce, I agree with you completely. But Ian Hickson has said that AFAHK that there was no cry for additional attributes on the uf-discuss list, And Ian also said he saw no need for them after I requested to get several attributes added to the list of attributes applicable to all elements, i.e. abbr, href, name, rel, rev, scope, size, src, type, and value. I hadn't had the chance to ask the uf-discuss list about this, so now is a perfect time. What about adding additional standard attributes to all elements. Would it be helpful? -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [admin] Declaring end of thread (was Re: [uf-discuss] Commentsfrom IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats)
Tantek Çelik wrote: 3. Prefixing (e.g. vcard-) has already been considered and rejected for microformats in general. There have been deliberate exceptions made for one microformat (hAtom). I'm not going to spend the time re-arguing this now - I have added an item to my to-do list on the wiki to better document this. First, I didn't see this until a just little earlier today when I cleaned out my Google spam box (6000+ spam messages and then all of your emails, for some reason.) Second and last, my comment to you based on your position RE:prefixes is that it is just begging to have the Microformat community splintered for lack of a viable solution to a real problem. Maybe prefixes aren't the answer, but I haven't heard an alternate presented. Respectfully, -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats
On 12/11/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Benjamin West wrote: I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is there a difference between lowercase microformats and uppercase microformats? lowercase microformats = unofficial semantic markup embedded in HTML uppercase microformats = Official Microformat That's the first I've heard of this usage. I think what I'm hearing (and agree with) is a need for a term that describes the product of semantic markup techniques in a general way. Lots of people are already doing this, and don't need any official body to bless them. Microformats (any casing) would be a subset of these products that are blessed by pervasive use across the web. I'm hesitant to pick out such a name, lest I choose badly (eg AJAX). I'm happy to let the market pick that name (eg I don't think anyone should deliberately pick it out.), but at the same time, I'm hesitant to let the term microformats be applied to general applications of general techniques. Does that reverberate at all with you, Mike, or anyone else? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats
On Dec 11, 2006, at 11:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian Suda wrote: Microformats are meant as building blocks and they should be able to be using independantly and together... If that is true, how can it be achieved without a disambiguation conventions to keep official Microformats from conflicting with similar techniques. Or is it the view of the Microformat community that Microformats will keep it's house clean and, because Microformats are the anointed ones that it just sucks to be the other guy? Since Microformats (capital-M) are based on research of current practice, I think it's probably more helpful to think of techniques as proto- Microformats. If the community is slow to develop a format that makes sense, we often encourage authors to develop their own systems, which then can inform how a format will function in the wild. This is where documentation and the oft-belabored process becomes powerful. Although it can be annoying for early-adopters and people who need solutions now, it creates strong formats once the issues are solidified. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats
Benjamin West wrote: That's the first I've heard of this usage. I think what I'm hearing (and agree with) is a need for a term that describes the product of semantic markup techniques in a general way. It's my usage. It seemed natural as I've heard the term uppercase/lowercase used to distinguish between official and unofficial in other areas in the past. Lots of people are already doing this, and don't need any official body to bless them. Agreed. I just see the need to give those people a way to disambiguate between themselves and Microformats. I've said the same here as well as on WHATWG. But I'm not gaining any success to date. People are saying it is a hypothetical problem while ignoring that I am saying it is an actual problem in my usage. Microformats (any casing) would be a subset of these products that are blessed by pervasive use across the web. I'm hesitant to pick out such a name, lest I choose badly (eg AJAX). I'm happy to let the market pick that name (eg I don't think anyone should deliberately pick it out.), but at the same time, I'm hesitant to let the term microformats be applied to general applications of general techniques. Does that reverberate at all with you, Mike, or anyone else? That's exactly what I see going on here and discuss on WHATWG, so yes. Ian Hickson called it Keywords in the HTML extension mechanism and I reverted to calling it semantic markup embedded in HTML. Maybe we could call it SemMarE? (yeah, I suck a making up names too. ;-) -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Disambiguation Conventions? (was Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats)
Ryan Cannon wrote: If the community is slow to develop a format that makes sense, we often encourage authors to develop their own systems, which then can inform how a format will function in the wild. This is where documentation and the oft-belabored process becomes powerful. Although it can be annoying for early-adopters and people who need solutions now, it creates strong formats once the issues are solidified. Arrgghhh! (he says, frustrated that people address the tangent to his issue, but don't/won't address his actual issue!) So I repeat: How then can we achieve a disambiguation conventions to keep official Microformats from conflicting with proto- Microformats? -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats
Also sprach Mike Schinkel: I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is there a difference between lowercase microformats and uppercase microformats? lowercase microformats = unofficial semantic markup embedded in HTML uppercase microformats = Official Microformat This makes sense to me. Preventing people from using the term microformat for their own set of class names is an uphill battle; the term microformat is simply too attractive. Besides, people should be encouraged to play. Most private sets will quickly die a natural death and do no harm. Those who survive in the wild deserve the capital M. -hkon Håkon Wium Lie CTO °þe®ª [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.opera.com/howcome ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
