Re: Calomel.org
On 2012-07-27 15:41, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 05:36:38PM +1000, David Diggles wrote: The calomel phenomenon is fascinating! I was calomeled. Those who have been calomeled have done the following: 1. lazily google: openbsd tuning (or similar) 2. click on: Network Tuning and Performance Guide (OpenBSD) - Calomel (currently ranked 2 on google) Calomel is ranked 2 on google because it has been linked several hundred times from this list. Google doesn't know about good/bad opinions or flamewars. Google only cares about the reputation of the origin of the link. Indeed, Calomel has lots of reputation, that's why it ranks so high. The problem is, it has lots of *bad* reputation, and google can't distinguish that. Also tens of mailing list archives include the links. So, the OpenBSD community is the SEO of Calomel. Ironic but true. 3. lazy and in a hurry to get it working, apply stuff from calomel 4. lazily email misc without first searching marc.info, referring to the calomel recipe and asking further questions While calomel has the high rank in google, this keeps repeating. -- Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
Re: Calomel.org
Indeed, Calomel has lots of reputation, that's why it ranks so high. Reputation and popularity are 2 different things :) google only count popularity
Re: Calomel.org
There is must be a reason why this kind of sites exists. because there are huge amount of readers. Ppl whom take care of www.openbsd.org documentation/FAQ maybe have to take a look and pinpoint what is missing? nothing is wrong. Just most admins are of calomel.org style and doesn't mind reading manuals.
Re: Calomel.org
Who the fuck do you think you are to use that tone? The royal we? Are those mutual favors a currency I can trade for a cash? Will the OpenBSD community branding me special get me more work? pussy? the INS fast-lane? Nope. *IF* I decide to put in the work, mylord, it'll be on my own terms so you can get off your high horse and drop that plastic monocle replica. I got my own agenda; if there was general support for a mediawiki-based site that includes the new Lua bindings I could partially wrap that into my current job on my remote Lua debugger. Assuming I don't completely botch it, I would be doing a favour to the OpenBSD community in return for nothing, as do others, but it's pretty clear by now that change is not exactly welcome. How much did you sponsored or contributed to OpenBSB
Re: Calomel.org
mdoc(7) (the suggested format) Ah, the yin and yang of formats and tools ... is there a WYSIWIG editor for mdoc format? WHAT?! ROTFL! mdoc format, JUST LIKE HTML, is not 1:1 representation of display, but a text intermixed with commands/tags that define what is what and how. You just reminded me funny HTML pages (about 99% of all) that is made up for constant width because webmasters don't understand what is HTML for.
Re: editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Eric Oyen eric.o...@gmail.com wrote: yep. looks like I need to come up to current then. 4.7 is definitely a little out of date. I might have to set it up in a vmware session on the linux box and see if I can pipe the console to an internal serial port and read it with a common comm application. the X display would be a bit harder to deal with without some initial sighted assistance to get things up and running. I seriously wish I could get OpenBSD working with orca on my powerbook G3 Lombard. I had tried before with the help of another member on here (Super Biscuit) but ran into a few problems, mostly resulting from an issue with ALTIVEC, which isn't on that version of the PPC chipset). Update to -current (or 5.2 when it will be available), and install orca from packages. It's just a matter of: # export PKG_PATH=ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/packages/`arch -s`/ or # export PKG_PATH=ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/`uname -r`/packages/`arch -s`/ and then: # pkg_add -v orca Cheers, David
Re: editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, David Coppa wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Eric Oyen eric.o...@gmail.com wrote: yep. looks like I need to come up to current then. 4.7 is definitely a little out of date. I might have to set it up in a vmware session on the linux box and see if I can pipe the console to an internal serial port and read it with a common comm application. the X display would be a bit harder to deal with without some initial sighted assistance to get things up and running. I seriously wish I could get OpenBSD working with orca on my powerbook G3 Lombard. I had tried before with the help of another member on here (Super Biscuit) but ran into a few problems, mostly resulting from an issue with ALTIVEC, which isn't on that version of the PPC chipset). Update to -current (or 5.2 when it will be available), and install orca from packages. Damn gmail, it fscked up my previous mail. Sorry. I said... Update to -current (or 5.2 when it will be available), and install orca from packages. It's just a matter of: # export PKG_PATH=ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/packages/`arch -s`/ or (if you use a release): # export PKG_PATH=ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/`uname -r`/packages/`arch -s`/ and then: # pkg_add -v orca Cheers, David
Re: editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
On 2012-07-26, Eric Oyen eric.o...@gmail.com wrote: one last item, the machine I am using to testbed this doesn't have a dedicated serial port (they no longer include those on commodity hardware anymore) so having the output routed there is out. -current can provide a full system console on a PCI serial port, setup is a bit fiddly as the boot loader doesn't enumerate devices itself, but it's not too bad - basically identify the i/o address using pcidump and set it in boot.conf with 'machine comaddr'. you would also need a login console on the relevant device via /etc/ttys, this is already possible in earlier releases, the new thing is the system console.
Re: Calomel.org sucks ass
On 07/26/12 03:04, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Everytime you follow a non official documentation, you waste your time and the developer's time, we're not cranky about calomel only, we're cranky about people following unofficial documentation, remember, our FAQ and manpages are accurate 99.99% of the time and they are pretty well written and complete. 90% of the time the problem is finding the right man page. F.ex. the FAQ starts with pppoe(8) which leads to the gigantic ppp(8) and you're shit out of luck if you read all those only to find out pppoe(4) is what you really want. Try: apropos (1) - locate commands by keyword lookup # apropos ppoe pppoe (4) - PPP Over Ethernet protocol network interface pppoe (8) - PPP Over Ethernet translator Again I was following the FAQ. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:24:31PM +0200, Peter Laufenberg wrote: That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody'ss here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work or you aren't. Who the fuck do you think you are to use that tone? The royal we? Are those mutual favors a currency I can trade for a cash? Will the OpenBSD community branding me special get me more work? pussy? the INS fast-lane? Nope. *IF* I decide to put in the work, mylord, it'll be on my own terms so you can get off your high horse and drop that plastic monocle replica. I got my own agenda; if there was general support for a mediawiki-based site that includes the new Lua bindings I could partially wrap that into my current job on my remote Lua debugger. Assuming I don't completely botch it, I would be doing a favour to the OpenBSD community in return for nothing, as do others, but it's pretty clear by now that change is not exactly welcome. I'm not going to piss against the wind and invest energy in a project doomed to fail, especially given your condescending tone that does no one any favors. -- p I refuse to do any work until my ego is properly stroked! is no way to go through life. Agreed, that is exactly what I wrote. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
Ted Unangst [t...@tedunangst.com] wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:53, Peter Laufenberg wrote: /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. That's because 5 and 8 floppy drives aren't supported for installation. He was just being sarcastic. Peter's (well taken) point is that OpenBSD is crucially lacking support for the larger floppy media from the last 40 years. A large oversight, indeed. Ever since I read it hours ago, I have been working furiously adding support for PDP-11s so that we have something that can accept an 8 floppy drive. I've also decided to take the second challenge, and shrink the install media down to 1.2MB to support a 5.25 floppy. I think we finally have a way out of this mess. Awesome, I can *finally* put those Commodore64 drives to use! :) -- p
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
On 26 July 2012 18:14, Matthew Dempsky matt...@dempsky.org wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: +.Pa http://www.openbsd.org/faq . mdoc(7) says Lk should be used for hyperlinks, though we don't actually do that in any of our manuals currently. I think it would be nice to start doing so though so that HTML and PDF formatted manual pages can provide proper hyperlinks. Why is Pa only found in the MACRO REFERENCE section of mdoc(7) and not in the MACRO OVERVIEW? Is it deprecated?
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:19 AM, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: Why is Pa only found in the MACRO REFERENCE section of mdoc(7) and not in the MACRO OVERVIEW? Is it deprecated? It's under the Semantic markup for command line utilities subsection.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 05:36:38PM +1000, David Diggles wrote: The calomel phenomenon is fascinating! I was calomeled. Those who have been calomeled have done the following: 1. lazily google: openbsd tuning (or similar) 2. click on: Network Tuning and Performance Guide (OpenBSD) - Calomel (currently ranked 2 on google) Calomel is ranked 2 on google because it has been linked several hundred times from this list. Google doesn't know about good/bad opinions or flamewars. Google only cares about the reputation of the origin of the link. Also tens of mailing list archives include the links. So, the OpenBSD community is the SEO of Calomel. Ironic but true. 3. lazy and in a hurry to get it working, apply stuff from calomel 4. lazily email misc without first searching marc.info, referring to the calomel recipe and asking further questions While calomel has the high rank in google, this keeps repeating. -- Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado http://juanfra.info
Re: Calomel.org
On Jul 27, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote: Calomel is ranked 2 on google There is must be a reason why this kind of sites exists. Ppl whom take care of www.openbsd.org documentation/FAQ maybe have to take a look and pinpoint what is missing? For some reason ppl refer to those sites than openbsd.org. //mxb
Re: Calomel.org
Calomel is ranked 2 on google because it has been linked several hundred times from this list. Google doesn't know about good/bad opinions or flamewars. Google only cares about the reputation of the origin of the link. I don't think that's true; google link:calomel.org -site:calomel.org to find sites that link to it. Pagerank is more sophisticated than that; otherwise it'd be too easy to trick. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 22:51, mxb wrote: On Jul 27, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado wrote: Calomel is ranked 2 on google There is must be a reason why this kind of sites exists. Ppl whom take care of www.openbsd.org documentation/FAQ maybe have to take a look and pinpoint what is missing? For some reason ppl refer to those sites than openbsd.org. Because people want their computer to be more faster. If the FAQ had a section on more faster, people would still search for a site to make their computer be more more fasterer.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:47:46 +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote: Okay I feel that a flame war might be afoot but to put another log on the fire; is Calomel not trustworthy in the read and do alike not copying straight from kind of way? I have used the guides for instance about the PF and DNS. And that server has now been working fine for ages (2 years ;)). Just lucky, I guess. Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either? Howtos? That way lies madness. External recipes are not likely to be up-to-date or free of stupidity in the first place. The supplied docs (man and FAQ(on www.openbsd.org)) are sufficient for all base utilities etc. Packages come with varying quality docs but often there are hints in the package for OpenBSD variations. Apart from that the application's web pages are usually reasonable and the ones that have fora are generally helpful. Third-party docs are rarely gems. R/ *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
Re: Calomel.org
On 07/26/12 00:55, Shaka NKofo wrote: I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use. All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services like DNS and pf? I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on this matter. Thanks Shaka No. Read all of openbsd.org. It won't take that long, and is a great learning tool. The FAQ is part of that--you'll learn a lot. Use marc.info to look for specific stuff. You'll find lots of stuff, conversations on things. --STeve Andre'
Re: Calomel.org
On Jul 26 06:55:54, Shaka NKofo wrote: I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use. All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services like DNS and pf? No. I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it Good. Start from www.openbsd.org/faq and continue to the manpages.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote: [blabla] *facepalm* -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: Calomel.org
To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example configs of more obscure things :). On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote: [blabla] *facepalm* -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: Calomel.org
The calomel phenomenon is fascinating! I was calomeled. Those who have been calomeled have done the following: 1. lazily google: openbsd tuning (or similar) 2. click on: Network Tuning and Performance Guide (OpenBSD) - Calomel (currently ranked 2 on google) 3. lazy and in a hurry to get it working, apply stuff from calomel 4. lazily email misc without first searching marc.info, referring to the calomel recipe and asking further questions While calomel has the high rank in google, this keeps repeating.
Re: Calomel.org
Did I just read, that ? To my defense, I read nicely written FAQ and MAN first, then I used broken and wrong documentation for broken examples of more obscure things On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:26:03AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote: To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example configs of more obscure things :). On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote: [blabla] *facepalm* -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: Calomel.org
Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd, especially the sysctl tuning stuff. Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques. Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org. Here's a better idea I'm putting out there to see how fast it gets shot down: openbsd-wiki.org, with a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting and legitimate users would get answers faster and silently, in whatever available languages. Dynamic content proper search would also put an end to just wade through marc.info fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man, say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! And if linking to a 3rd-party web site was such a taboo you wouldn't use Google site-search. Let the shooting down begin. Truth is misc subscribers secretly love reading the same QAs over and again, with the monthly calomel snicker, right? -- p
Re: Calomel.org
Sorry Joakim, I'll bring this one back to the list. On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:45:17AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote: Yeah if you are going to complain about what sources I use please do so off list since that behaviour is not called for nor informative. Perhaps you should read this resource on how to respond and post in the list http://www.openbsd.org/mail.html. Let it be clear: I don't care what you use as a source of information, every one is free to shoot himself on the foot. But if you start mentionning calomel as a source of information, I feel an urge to clarify that your source of information is broken. I have received mails about *every week* asking why something I wrote was broken when that was just an outdated broken calomel example. That broken example still has it wrong and still drags mail to my mailbox. When you encourage others to follow that same broken source as you, I will not take it private because you're publically dumbing people. And also a comment on calomel; yes I use it but I'm not stupid enough to either copy straight from it OR use the sysctl... The only guides I have used for reference is https://calomel.org/pf_carp.html where I needed some information other then what was said on the site since I was going for a 4 server active cluster. Glad for you, the 100 % of people that mailed me with broken examples seem to have copied straight from it. Are they idiots ? No, some people thought it was a correct source of information because people mentionned it and no one clarified that it was a pile of junk. If you have a problem with calomel either make sure it does not surface in every search (above openbsd FAQ I might add). Sadly I'm not root on Google (yet ? ;p) and Internet is not a source of clean information, which is why some things need to be clarified to also surface in searches ;-) Just my 2 cents off list. cheers, -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: Calomel.org
This has to be a joke or a troll or something. I'm not biting. On Thu, Jul 26, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Shaka NKofo wrote: I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use. All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services like DNS and pf? I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on this matter. Thanks Shaka
Re: Calomel.org
I feel this usually comes from folks with Linux background. You see, in BSD world, specially in OpenBSD, there is good and high quality documentation, which the developers put a lot of effort in providing it. I know, since I did it too in the past, that when you're using Linux, you're basically in the dark, so you go to google, and you try your luck. Everytime you follow a non official documentation, you waste your time and the developer's time, we're not cranky about calomel only, we're cranky about people following unofficial documentation, remember, our FAQ and manpages are accurate 99.99% of the time and they are pretty well written and complete. If you can't figure it out by reading the FAQ/manpages: you're either not ready for it, or we have a documentation bug.
Re: Calomel.org
I know, since I did it too in the past, that when you're using Linux, you're basically in the dark, so you go to google, and you try your luck. when i was still using linux it was this manual is out of date, use texinfo. texinfo was out of date too, but wikipedia style documentation was considered great.
Re: Calomel.org
Here's a better idea I'm putting out there to see how fast it gets shot down: openbsd-wiki.org, with a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting and legitimate users would get answers faster and silently, in whatever available languages. How is that going to stop the 'retards and trolls' from posting? What are the consequences for people who break the rule, and who is going to enforce it? Have you really thought this through? Dynamic content proper search would also put an end to just wade through marc.info fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man, say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. I don't understand why the floppy install option gets you so riled up. I happen to have a couple of IBM Thinkpads from the early 2000's, which still work quite well with the exception of unreliable cdrom drives. So I like knowing the floppy option is there.
Re: Calomel.org
I first read the documentation, the do everything properly and after that i f..k it all up because some trendy webpages says i should. On Thu, 26 Jul 2012, Joakim Dellrud wrote: To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example configs of more obscure things :). On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote: [blabla] *facepalm* -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: Calomel.org
I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... what a problem with DNS? It is rather easy. I could help you on priv if you like, if you will clean up your mail and use something that is not archived by huge corporation. Unless you use gmail only for mailing lists.
Re: Calomel.org
In some ways, it is almost fortunate the calomel meme exists to keep reminding newcomers, as annoying as repetition is. It's the nature of things. I fell for it in the past. Others will in the future. On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:01:41AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: I first read the documentation, the do everything properly and after that i f..k it all up because some trendy webpages says i should. On Thu, 26 Jul 2012, Joakim Dellrud wrote: To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example configs of more obscure things :). On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote: [blabla] *facepalm* -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: Calomel.org
Here's a better idea I'm putting out there to see how fast it gets shot down: openbsd-wiki.org, with a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting and legitimate users would get answers faster and silently, in whatever available languages. How is that going to stop the 'retards and trolls' from posting? What are the consequences for people who break the rule, and who is going to enforce it? Have you really thought this through? I have and others have before me. Repeat offenders get blacklisted, either server- or client-side, doesn't matter. Really they're just another form of spam. OpenBSD already has various decision-makers; reducing @misc noise would be just another position and as with spam you could have a number of filters before they make it to the grey list. Dynamic content proper search would also put an end to just wade through marc.info fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man, say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. I don't understand why the floppy install option gets you so riled up. I happen to have a couple of IBM Thinkpads from the early 2000's, which still work quite well with the exception of unreliable cdrom drives. So I like knowing the floppy option is there. Good for you. You don't absolutely need it to be so prominent in a linear document though right? -- p
Re: Calomel.org
On 07/26/12 03:53, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd, especially the sysctl tuning stuff. Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques. Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org. a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting That'll happen right after I'm done cleaning up the unicorn shit from my back yard. You're not the first person to mention a wiki for OpenBSD, and look how well that turned out. -- Scott McEachern https://www.blackstaff.ca
Re: Calomel.org
Everytime you follow a non official documentation, you waste your time and the developer's time, we're not cranky about calomel only, we're cranky about people following unofficial documentation, remember, our FAQ and manpages are accurate 99.99% of the time and they are pretty well written and complete. 90% of the time the problem is finding the right man page. F.ex. the FAQ starts with pppoe(8) which leads to the gigantic ppp(8) and you're shit out of luck if you read all those only to find out pppoe(4) is what you really want. If you can't figure it out by reading the FAQ/manpages: you're either not ready for it, or we have a documentation bug. Not ready as in young Skywalker? That's bullshit; Google's pagerank means more people are linking to Calomel, period. If googling a problem is considered crass or lazy then remove google site search from openbsd.org. Remove grep while you're at it, let newbies earn their OpenBSD creds by reading source code. What is this, a fucking fraternity? You've got a bug alright: Calomel keeps on popping up despite being wrong, its site designed by a flaming unicorn, scripts made mostly of ASCII-art and useless comments to reinforce the genius of its egomaniacal self-jizz-gobbling writer -- and the conclusion is that the problem lies with that site, or people being stupid, lazy or not ready. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
On 07/26/12 03:53, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd, especially the sysctl tuning stuff. Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques. Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org. a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting That'll happen right after I'm done cleaning up the unicorn shit from my back yard. Damn you bought the Neverland ranch? You must be loaded. You're not the first person to mention a wiki for OpenBSD, and look how well that turned out. I assume you're not talking about openbsdsupport; that wasn't a wiki. Archwiki is okay though, its X11 entries are helpful even on OpenBSD. Hey it's where google points, sue me. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... what a problem with DNS? It is rather easy. I could help you on priv if you like, if you will clean up your mail and use something that is not archived by huge corporation. Unless you use gmail only for mailing lists. well, marc.info and gmane don't really qualify as huge, but they're down on the archiving part. you're apparently ok with that as long as it's not big brother. you are so counter-culture and out there.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:30 AM, Paulm pa...@tetrardus.net wrote: Dynamic content proper search would also put an end to just wade through marc.info fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man, say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. I don't understand why the floppy install option gets you so riled up. I happen to have a couple of IBM Thinkpads from the early 2000's, which still work quite well with the exception of unreliable cdrom drives. So I like knowing the floppy option is there. because ftp(1) source reads like porky pig trying to tell you about a handy tcp stream transfer protocol, only that his characteristic stutter is replaced with #ifndef SMALL
Re: Calomel.org
I couldn't have put it better. Plus Private Lessons on DNS on condition that the student is not under Big Brothers purview .. smiles On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 06:22 -0430, Andres Perera wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... what a problem with DNS? It is rather easy. I could help you on priv if you like, if you will clean up your mail and use something that is not archived by huge corporation. Unless you use gmail only for mailing lists. well, marc.info and gmane don't really qualify as huge, but they're down on the archiving part. you're apparently ok with that as long as it's not big brother. you are so counter-culture and out there.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 07:47:46AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote: Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either? Maybe you should, _at least_, read the www page, _at least_ to know that a FAQ already exists.
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:56:44AM -0300, Daniel Bolgheroni wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 07:47:46AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote: Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either? Maybe you should, _at least_, read the www page, _at least_ to know that a FAQ already exists. I was thinking if there was a reference to the FAQ in the afterboot man page this should be less of an issue: Index: src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 === RCS file: /cvs/src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8,v retrieving revision 1.136 diff -u -r1.136 afterboot.8 --- src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 1 Mar 2012 04:38:10 - 1.136 +++ src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 26 Jul 2012 13:50:30 - @@ -60,6 +60,13 @@ Administrators will rapidly become more familiar with .Ox if they get used to using the high quality manual pages. +.Ss OpenBSD FAQ +Many common and some not-so-common questions and answers about OpenBSD have +been collected in the OpenBSD FAQ. It is one of the first places you should +look for the answers to any tuning or setup questions. It has links to other +informative documents that will help with OpenBSD-specific questions. It can +be found at +.Pa http://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html. .Ss Errata By the time that you have installed your system, it is quite likely that bugs in the release have been found. /jl -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X Loongson MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary/ \http://www.mutt.org attachmentsCode Blue or Go Home!
Re: Calomel.org
Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: Here's a better idea I'm putting out there to see how fast it gets shot down: openbsd-wiki.org, with a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. Go ahead, make it so. I'm not being sarcastic. Well, only a little. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting Uh, no, those would just continue since they ignore existing documentation pretty much by definition. The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! Set up the site, make it work. Approval will come. -- Christian naddy Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:52 PM, John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:56:44AM -0300, Daniel Bolgheroni wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 07:47:46AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote: Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either? Maybe you should, _at least_, read the www page, _at least_ to know that a FAQ already exists. I was thinking if there was a reference to the FAQ in the afterboot man page this should be less of an issue: Index: src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 === RCS file: /cvs/src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8,v retrieving revision 1.136 diff -u -r1.136 afterboot.8 --- src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 1 Mar 2012 04:38:10 - 1.136 +++ src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 26 Jul 2012 13:50:30 - @@ -60,6 +60,13 @@ Administrators will rapidly become more familiar with .Ox if they get used to using the high quality manual pages. +.Ss OpenBSD FAQ +Many common and some not-so-common questions and answers about OpenBSD have +been collected in the OpenBSD FAQ. It is one of the first places you should +look for the answers to any tuning or setup questions. It has links to other +informative documents that will help with OpenBSD-specific questions. It can +be found at +.Pa http://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html. .Ss Errata By the time that you have installed your system, it is quite likely that bugs in the release have been found. Please, One sentence, one line... cheers David
Re: Calomel.org
On 2012-07-26, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:30 AM, Paulm pa...@tetrardus.net wrote: Dynamic content proper search would also put an end to just wade through marc.info fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man, say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. I don't understand why the floppy install option gets you so riled up. I happen to have a couple of IBM Thinkpads from the early 2000's, which still work quite well with the exception of unreliable cdrom drives. So I like knowing the floppy option is there. because ftp(1) source reads like porky pig trying to tell you about a handy tcp stream transfer protocol, only that his characteristic stutter is replaced with #ifndef SMALL this is subtle eye protection. it's to make you go ugh and turn away before you get corrupted by what's there if you look beyond the ifdefs...
Re: Calomel.org
The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! Set up the site, make it work. Approval will come. Other way around. I got better things to do than start a project obsd maintainers are waiting to see tank. -- p
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 04:12:50PM +0200, David Coppa wrote: Please, One sentence, one line... Ok, here we go: Index: src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 === RCS file: /cvs/src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8,v retrieving revision 1.136 diff -u -r1.136 afterboot.8 --- src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 1 Mar 2012 04:38:10 - 1.136 +++ src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 26 Jul 2012 14:39:59 - @@ -59,7 +59,9 @@ .Pp Administrators will rapidly become more familiar with .Ox -if they get used to using the high quality manual pages. +if they get used to using the high quality manual pages. Another important +source of information is the OpenBSD FAQ at +.Pa http://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html . .Ss Errata By the time that you have installed your system, it is quite likely that bugs in the release have been found. -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X Loongson MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary/ \http://www.mutt.org attachmentsCode Blue or Go Home!
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
A list member pointed out I could shorten the diff further by not including the index.html part of the URL. Third time's the charm? Index: src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 === RCS file: /cvs/src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8,v retrieving revision 1.136 diff -u -r1.136 afterboot.8 --- src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 1 Mar 2012 04:38:10 - 1.136 +++ src/share/man/man8/afterboot.8 26 Jul 2012 15:19:39 - @@ -59,7 +59,9 @@ .Pp Administrators will rapidly become more familiar with .Ox -if they get used to using the high quality manual pages. +if they get used to using the high quality manual pages. Another important +source of information is the OpenBSD FAQ at +.Pa http://www.openbsd.org/faq . .Ss Errata By the time that you have installed your system, it is quite likely that bugs in the release have been found. -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X Loongson MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary/ \http://www.mutt.org attachmentsCode Blue or Go Home!
Re: Calomel.org [patch for the afterboot.8 man page]
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:23 AM, John Long codeb...@inbox.lv wrote: +.Pa http://www.openbsd.org/faq . mdoc(7) says Lk should be used for hyperlinks, though we don't actually do that in any of our manuals currently. I think it would be nice to start doing so though so that HTML and PDF formatted manual pages can provide proper hyperlinks.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:53, Peter Laufenberg wrote: /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. That's because 5 and 8 floppy drives aren't supported for installation.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 04:43:10PM +0200, Peter Laufenberg wrote: The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! Set up the site, make it work. Approval will come. Other way around. I got better things to do than start a project obsd maintainers are waiting to see tank. -- p Or you can provide patches to the official documentation, either in OpenBSD itself, or do the universe a favor and document the various softwares out there that have little-to-no documentation and see if they're up to snuff. That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody's here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work or you aren't.
Re: Calomel.org
well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I navigate through a man page in a terminal session. There was a web page converter that would take man pages and convert them to web content. it required installing a specific package, starting a local web server and then typing in a URL bar in a web client the command: man: man page here. I was never entirely able to get that to work on either OS X or linux. I may have to look for the same package in ports (once I remember its name). anyway, there are those of us out here willing to do the work, but would appreciate some preliminary documentation from DEVS as to what goes where. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 10:20 AM, bert wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 04:43:10PM +0200, Peter Laufenberg wrote: The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! Set up the site, make it work. Approval will come. Other way around. I got better things to do than start a project obsd maintainers are waiting to see tank. -- p Or you can provide patches to the official documentation, either in OpenBSD itself, or do the universe a favor and document the various softwares out there that have little-to-no documentation and see if they're up to snuff. That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody's here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work or you aren't.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 10:54 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. The pages themselves are marked-up text; just use a text editor. Note that OpenBSD doesn't use groff anymore to render them. Look at mandoc(1) mdoc(7) (the suggested format) man(7) (the legacy format; you may run across it in older pages you're editing) As an example, here's mdoc(7) in its text format, via cvsweb: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/share/man/man7/mdoc.7?rev=1.93;content-type=text%2Fplain That's what you would be editing. Weldon Weldon
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54:25AM -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may What's your favorite text editor? have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I navigate through a man page in a terminal session. There was a web page converter that would take man pages and convert them to web content. it required installing a specific package, starting a local web server and then typing in a URL bar in a web client the command: man: man page here. I was never entirely able to get that to work on either OS X or linux. I may have to look for the same package in ports (once I remember its name). Why in the hell do you need a web browser to edit man pages? Why does the world insist on 7 steps for a no-step process? anyway, there are those of us out here willing to do the work, but would appreciate some preliminary documentation from DEVS as to what goes where. man roff -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 10:20 AM, bert wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 04:43:10PM +0200, Peter Laufenberg wrote: The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! Set up the site, make it work. Approval will come. Other way around. I got better things to do than start a project obsd maintainers are waiting to see tank. -- p Or you can provide patches to the official documentation, either in OpenBSD itself, or do the universe a favor and document the various softwares out there that have little-to-no documentation and see if they're up to snuff. That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody's here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work or you aren't.
Re: Calomel.org
Weldon Goree wrote: mdoc(7) (the suggested format) Ah, the yin and yang of formats and tools ... is there a WYSIWIG editor for mdoc format? -- Jack Woehr # We commonly say we have no time when, Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is. http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54, Eric Oyen wrote: well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I navigate through a man page in a terminal session. man typically pipes the output through more (or less). But if you plan to edit the page, you feed the input through mandoc. There are several supported output formats, but the default is ascii text. One thing to note is that the output renders bold text as letter-backspace-letter, which looks really funny in a text editor, but works ok for terminals and more. You probably want to read the mandoc man page itself carefully, you may be able to build a better interface to man pages if the man/more combo isn't good for you.
Re: Calomel.org
Hi Jack, Jack Woehr wrote on Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:46:24PM -0600: is there a WYSIWIG editor for mdoc format? No, and there cannot be. The purpose of a WYSIWIG editor is to achieve a particular visual impression (most WYSIWIG editors suck even at that task, but that's beside the point). The purpose of the mdoc(7) format is semantic annotation of words - as in: This word is a placeholder for a command line argument. That word is the name of a special environment variable (and has to be typed verbatim). These words are optional. Either of those can be provided as an alternative. Here is a function name and here are its arguments. As with all semantic annotation formats, presentation is left to the formatting frontend, so WYSIWIG is completely meaningless in that context. Output will look *very* different on an ASCII terminal, as a PDF document, even as HTML in firefox or lynx. The mdoc(7) language is quite easy. Reading mdoc(7), you can learn the basics quickly. As with any language, maturing your style will take a bit longer. Yours, Ingo
Re: Calomel.org
the web page server is for displaying them in a way my screen reader can handle. didn't you pay attention in my posting? I mentioned being blind. as for editing man pages using a text editor, frankly, that is a bit tedious as there is a lot of text attributes and other invisible features embedded in the man pages themselves. btw, for me, this is not a simple no step process. I doubt you understand the constraints I operate under here. So, I will just leave it at that anyway, I think this thread is going a bit far afield from its intended topic. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, bert wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54:25AM -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may What's your favorite text editor? have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I navigate through a man page in a terminal session. There was a web page converter that would take man pages and convert them to web content. it required installing a specific package, starting a local web server and then typing in a URL bar in a web client the command: man: man page here. I was never entirely able to get that to work on either OS X or linux. I may have to look for the same package in ports (once I remember its name). Why in the hell do you need a web browser to edit man pages? Why does the world insist on 7 steps for a no-step process? anyway, there are those of us out here willing to do the work, but would appreciate some preliminary documentation from DEVS as to what goes where. man roof
Re: Calomel.org
Ingo Schwarze wrote: The mdoc(7) language is quite easy. Fascinating exposition ... I guessed the nature of the language from the example. A generation better than groff format-based concept. As with any language, maturing your style will take a bit longer. Well, not sure how much more my style will mature. Recently passed 60th birthday and spend most of these days playing music, chess, and with grandchildren :) Yours, Ingo Nice to chat with you again, Ingo. Keep up your excellent work. -- Jack Woehr # We commonly say we have no time when, Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is. http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: Calomel.org
Marc Espie wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:46:24PM -0600, Jack Woehr wrote: Weldon Goree wrote: mdoc(7) (the suggested format) Ah, the yin and yang of formats and tools ... is there a WYSIWIG editor for mdoc format? vi !Gmandoc|more u funny guy :) -- Jack Woehr # We commonly say we have no time when, Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is. http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:46:24PM -0600, Jack Woehr wrote: Weldon Goree wrote: mdoc(7) (the suggested format) Ah, the yin and yang of formats and tools ... is there a WYSIWIG editor for mdoc format? vi !Gmandoc|more u
Re: Calomel.org
well, I can give that a whirl. you should hear how those text attributes sound in my screen reader. its much the same as trying to pick out an object at range among a bunch of moving scenery. the man piped through more scheme is the biggest part of the problem, especially on remote sessions. As an aside, I have tried looking at some man pages placed on the net. to say they are a model of readability given all the other links and associated crapola is anything but true. In some cases, its confusing to the point of not wanting to deal with. anyway, back to reading and thanks for some of the suggestions. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Ted Unangst wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:54, Eric Oyen wrote: well, I am wondering what packages I can use to edit man pages. also, I may have to change how a man page would be laid out because my screen reader (both in linux and OS X) seem to have trouble handling the change in content when I navigate through a man page in a terminal session. man typically pipes the output through more (or less). But if you plan to edit the page, you feed the input through mandoc. There are several supported output formats, but the default is ascii text. One thing to note is that the output renders bold text as letter-backspace-letter, which looks really funny in a text editor, but works ok for terminals and more. You probably want to read the mandoc man page itself carefully, you may be able to build a better interface to man pages if the man/more combo isn't good for you.
editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
well, its pretty good in a remote session. I tried installing an X screen reader from ports and was met with a number of unsatisfied dependencies. that was several months back and I am not sure that things have changed that much. ORCA is about the only screen reader that will work reliably, but getting it there is a massive load of work hunting down source packages that are not yet in the ports tree. I tried to get speakup running (by enabling Linux executables in Sysctl) but had problems with it wanting to load kernel modules (linux only). so, speakup is a dead end. ORCA is python based, so it has less of an issue. I seriously wish to have a console level screen reader that can startup after hardware detection is complete. one last item, the machine I am using to testbed this doesn't have a dedicated serial port (they no longer include those on commodity hardware anymore) so having the output routed there is out. there is a USB to serial converter, but it is rather expensive. I am not sure how supported that would be in OpenBSD (that is yet another project I have to hold off on until after I acquire my training up at the colorado center for the blind). one nice thing I like about OpenBSD is the ease of use that PF has. When properly commented, I can easily understand and edit the rules with nano )or ssh get it and edit it with textedit here on OS X which is easier). Anyway, thats my take on OpenBSD so far. I am still a few versions behind current. -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Jack Woehr wrote: Eric Oyen wrote: I mentioned being blind. So overall how is OBSD when one is a blind user? -- Jack Woehr # We commonly say we have no time when, Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # of course, we have all that there is. http://www.softwoehr.com # - James Mason, _The Art of Chess_, 1905
Re: editing man pages for the blind in mind [was: Re: Calomel.org]
yep. looks like I need to come up to current then. 4.7 is definitely a little out of date. I might have to set it up in a vmware session on the linux box and see if I can pipe the console to an internal serial port and read it with a common comm application. the X display would be a bit harder to deal with without some initial sighted assistance to get things up and running. I seriously wish I could get OpenBSD working with orca on my powerbook G3 Lombard. I had tried before with the help of another member on here (Super Biscuit) but ran into a few problems, mostly resulting from an issue with ALTIVEC, which isn't on that version of the PPC chipset). -eric On Jul 26, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Peter Hessler wrote: Hi Eric We do seem to have orca in ports: Port: orca-3.4.2p0 Path: x11/gnome/orca If this is not up to date, or doesn't work for you, please let us know. On 2012 Jul 26 (Thu) at 13:23:27 -0700 (-0700), Eric Oyen wrote: :well, : :its pretty good in a remote session. I tried installing an X screen reader :from ports and was met with a number of unsatisfied dependencies. that was :several months back and I am not sure that things have changed that much. ORCA :is about the only screen reader that will work reliably, but getting it there :is a massive load of work hunting down source packages that are not yet in the :ports tree.
Re: Calomel.org
That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody'ss here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work or you aren't. Who the fuck do you think you are to use that tone? The royal we? Are those mutual favors a currency I can trade for a cash? Will the OpenBSD community branding me special get me more work? pussy? the INS fast-lane? Nope. *IF* I decide to put in the work, mylord, it'll be on my own terms so you can get off your high horse and drop that plastic monocle replica. I got my own agenda; if there was general support for a mediawiki-based site that includes the new Lua bindings I could partially wrap that into my current job on my remote Lua debugger. Assuming I don't completely botch it, I would be doing a favour to the OpenBSD community in return for nothing, as do others, but it's pretty clear by now that change is not exactly welcome. I'm not going to piss against the wind and invest energy in a project doomed to fail, especially given your condescending tone that does no one any favors. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
Ted Unangst [t...@tedunangst.com] wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:53, Peter Laufenberg wrote: /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4 and 8 media. That's because 5 and 8 floppy drives aren't supported for installation. He was just being sarcastic. Peter's (well taken) point is that OpenBSD is crucially lacking support for the larger floppy media from the last 40 years. A large oversight, indeed. Ever since I read it hours ago, I have been working furiously adding support for PDP-11s so that we have something that can accept an 8 floppy drive. I've also decided to take the second challenge, and shrink the install media down to 1.2MB to support a 5.25 floppy. I think we finally have a way out of this mess.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:24:31PM +0200, Peter Laufenberg wrote: That said, the attitude you're displaying does no one any favors: nobody'ss here to make you feel special; either you're willing to put in the work or you aren't. Who the fuck do you think you are to use that tone? The royal we? Are those mutual favors a currency I can trade for a cash? Will the OpenBSD community branding me special get me more work? pussy? the INS fast-lane? Nope. *IF* I decide to put in the work, mylord, it'll be on my own terms so you can get off your high horse and drop that plastic monocle replica. I got my own agenda; if there was general support for a mediawiki-based site that includes the new Lua bindings I could partially wrap that into my current job on my remote Lua debugger. Assuming I don't completely botch it, I would be doing a favour to the OpenBSD community in return for nothing, as do others, but it's pretty clear by now that change is not exactly welcome. I'm not going to piss against the wind and invest energy in a project doomed to fail, especially given your condescending tone that does no one any favors. -- p I refuse to do any work until my ego is properly stroked! is no way to go through life.
Re: Calomel.org
On 07/26/12 03:04, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Everytime you follow a non official documentation, you waste your time and the developer's time, we're not cranky about calomel only, we're cranky about people following unofficial documentation, remember, our FAQ and manpages are accurate 99.99% of the time and they are pretty well written and complete. 90% of the time the problem is finding the right man page. F.ex. the FAQ starts with pppoe(8) which leads to the gigantic ppp(8) and you're shit out of luck if you read all those only to find out pppoe(4) is what you really want. Try: apropos (1) - locate commands by keyword lookup # apropos ppoe pppoe (4) - PPP Over Ethernet protocol network interface pppoe (8) - PPP Over Ethernet translator If you can't figure it out by reading the FAQ/manpages: you're either not ready for it, or we have a documentation bug. Not ready as in young Skywalker? That's bullshit; Google's pagerank means more people are linking to Calomel, period. If googling a problem is considered crass or lazy then remove google site search from openbsd.org. Remove grep while you're at it, let newbies earn their OpenBSD creds by reading source code. What is this, a fucking fraternity? You've got a bug alright: Calomel keeps on popping up despite being wrong, its site designed by a flaming unicorn, scripts made mostly of ASCII-art and useless comments to reinforce the genius of its egomaniacal self-jizz-gobbling writer -- and the conclusion is that the problem lies with that site, or people being stupid, lazy or not ready. -- p
Re: Calomel.org
Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd, especially the sysctl tuning stuff. Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques. Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org. On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote: I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use. All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services like DNS and pf? I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on this matter. Thanks Shaka
Re: Calomel.org
On 07/26/2012 06:55 AM, thus Shaka NKofo spake: I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use. All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services like DNS and pf? I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on this matter. Thanks Shaka *fetching popcorn
Re: Calomel.org
Okay I feel that a flame war might be afoot but to put another log on the fire; is Calomel not trustworthy in the read and do alike not copying straight from kind of way? I have used the guides for instance about the PF and DNS. And that server has now been working fine for ages (2 years ;)). Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either? Regards Joakim On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Bernd be...@kroenchenstadt.de wrote: On 07/26/2012 06:55 AM, thus Shaka NKofo spake: I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use. All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services like DNS and pf? I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan since the devices are just adding up too fast... Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on this matter. Thanks Shaka *fetching popcorn
Re: Calomel.org
Darrin Chandler dwchand...@stilyagin.com writes: This is true of any sites with OpenBSD help. Sometimes I've found some info on these sites that's saved me much time, but I'd never take the info without thinking it through myself, check against the man pages, FAQ, etc. One common problem is that sites set up by individuals may be extremely useful at one time, but as that induvidual for whatever reason stops maintaining the material, it goes stale over time. Fortunately the official OpenBSD docs are generally pretty readable and accessible, so checking the staleness of an external resource is usually quite straightforward. (and yes, I'm fully aware that there's stuff out there I've written that's rapidly approaching it's sell by date) -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/ Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: Calomel.org
On 2009-05-07, FRLinux frli...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:07 AM, James Peltier james_a_pelt...@yahoo.ca wrote: There was mention of calomel.org recently. This is a great resource, however, it needs to be a bit more updated. For example the following page advises *not* to use the GENERIC.MP kernel, however, considering how much work has gone into the MP work and fact that MP will become default I think it should be updated. ;) https://calomel.org/network_performance.html So I am guessing you got in touch with them? https://calomel.org/calomel_at.html Cheers, Steph If you are interested in contacting us at Calomel.org please send mail to the following email address @calomel.org. The text is read from left to right and _not_ in the order they appear. Said text is in an animated gif (which often doesn't display properly), which is about as much fun to read, as it would be to dig through the site and find where the errors are. There are some useful things on the site, but please, use with a big pinch of salt.
Re: Calomel.org
On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 12:03:23PM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: There are some useful things on the site, but please, use with a big pinch of salt. This is true of any sites with OpenBSD help. Sometimes I've found some info on these sites that's saved me much time, but I'd never take the info without thinking it through myself, check against the man pages, FAQ, etc. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG dwchand...@stilyagin.com | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation
Re: Calomel.org
Thanks for the heads up. I agree that with all of the work done in the newest MP kernel the page is outdated. There should be time this month to test the newest release and post the results. Network Speed and Performance Guide (OpenBSD) https://calomel.org/network_performance.html As Darren and the previous posts have said, always do your research using multiple sources. We try to be as accurate on our site as possible, but as in this case, some pages may become outdated. When you find information that is useful compare it to the man pages, to other resources on-line and ask questions. -- Calomel @ https://calomel.org Open Source Research and Reference On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 10:53:18AM -0400, Darrin Chandler wrote: On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 12:03:23PM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: There are some useful things on the site, but please, use with a big pinch of salt. This is true of any sites with OpenBSD help. Sometimes I've found some info on these sites that's saved me much time, but I'd never take the info without thinking it through myself, check against the man pages, FAQ, etc. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG dwchand...@stilyagin.com | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation
