Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

On 09/11/2017 04:00 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Am 11.09.2017 um 19:21 schrieb Be:
I was using Mixxx to compare my MOTU Ultralite AVB with my RME 
Babyface Pro (to decide whether to keep the Ultralite and sell the 
Babyface Pro) by sending Deck 1 to one sound card and Deck 2 to the 
other. After a while, one of them started crackling. I have not tested 
again to check if I can reproduce the issue, but I can try.


This sounds like the issue we have if you disable multi-soundcard sync. 
If this happens on any other setting, we have still an issue in our 
syncing code. Which Audio API did you use? Could you try it again? Or 
test your remaining soundcard with your internal soundcard?


In retrospect, I think this may have been a firmware or hardware issue 
with the MOTU Ultralite AVB. It has happened a randomly a few times 
since then using only the Ultralite AVB for output. I have contacted 
MOTU about this, hopefully a firmware update can fix it...


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Sébastien Blaisot]

On windows, you can configure your soundcard outputs if your driver 
advertise that possibility upto 7.1:


(sorry, french version here)


if you choose this, you can select each output in Mixxx:



But, from my own experience:
* This is generally true with DESKTOP onboard soundcards that have at 
least 3 or 4 jacks that can be configured either as input or output, not 
on laptops that only have 1 or 2 jacks.
*  Most progams use stereo sound output so windows and/or the driver 
often do sound processing and upscaling from stereo to 5.1 or 7.1, thus 
channel 1-2 output is often mixed in other outputs too. not good for mixing


IMHO this is not a good solution and is most of the time unapplicable to 
laptops.


BR,

Sebastien


Le 21/09/2017 à 08:13, Daniel Schürmann a écrit :

Yes, the onboard soundcard of my desktop device.
And yes, at least with ALSA they are treated just as an generic 8 
channel soundcard.


I assume that there can be crosstalk issues, but that is the same 
issue if you use a splitter cable.

@Thorsten: can you verify that his for windows?

Am 21.09.2017 12:36 vorm. schrieb "Be" >:


On 09/20/2017 05:25 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Thorsten,

Thank you for your input. If you like, you could you add a
paragraph that explains how to use a Surround sound card for
Mixxx?

With Linux + ALSA this is no deal, my onboard soundcard has  4
x 3,5 mm output jacks, and the Mixxx hardware preferences are
listing 8 channels. So there is nothing special here.  How
does it look in Windows?
Is there anything special to setup?


Are you referring to the onboard sound card on a desktop computer?
Yeah, the sometimes have more jacks. Whether they can typically
play independent output channels I don't know. I suppose it's
worth mentioning, but I've never seen a laptop with more than a
mic input and headphone output jack.



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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Yes, the onboard soundcard of my desktop device.
And yes, at least with ALSA they are treated just as an generic 8 channel
soundcard.

I assume that there can be crosstalk issues, but that is the same issue if
you use a splitter cable.

@Thorsten: can you verify that his for windows?

Am 21.09.2017 12:36 vorm. schrieb "Be" :

On 09/20/2017 05:25 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

> Hi Thorsten,
>
> Thank you for your input. If you like, you could you add a paragraph that
> explains how to use a Surround sound card for Mixxx?
>
> With Linux + ALSA this is no deal, my onboard soundcard has  4 x 3,5 mm
> output jacks, and the Mixxx hardware preferences are listing 8 channels. So
> there is nothing special here.  How does it look in Windows?
> Is there anything special to setup?
>

Are you referring to the onboard sound card on a desktop computer? Yeah,
the sometimes have more jacks. Whether they can typically play independent
output channels I don't know. I suppose it's worth mentioning, but I've
never seen a laptop with more than a mic input and headphone output jack.



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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

On 09/20/2017 05:25 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Thorsten,

Thank you for your input. If you like, you could you add a paragraph 
that explains how to use a Surround sound card for Mixxx?


With Linux + ALSA this is no deal, my onboard soundcard has  4 x 3,5 mm 
output jacks, and the Mixxx hardware preferences are listing 8 channels. 
So there is nothing special here.  How does it look in Windows?

Is there anything special to setup?


Are you referring to the onboard sound card on a desktop computer? Yeah, 
the sometimes have more jacks. Whether they can typically play 
independent output channels I don't know. I suppose it's worth 
mentioning, but I've never seen a laptop with more than a mic input and 
headphone output jack.


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Hi Thorsten,

Thank you for your input. If you like, you could you add a paragraph 
that explains how to use a Surround sound card for Mixxx?


With Linux + ALSA this is no deal, my onboard soundcard has  4 x 3,5 mm 
output jacks, and the Mixxx hardware preferences are listing 8 channels. 
So there is nothing special here.  How does it look in Windows?

Is there anything special to setup?

Interestingly, I have never tried this for Mixxx, because I use my 
laptop when DJing. This has a single combined microphone/headphone jack.


Kind regards,

Daniel





Am 20.09.2017 um 21:03 schrieb Be:

On 09/20/2017 10:06 AM, Thorsten Munsch wrote:

Hey guys,

at first I wanted to suggest the user to use his only his onboard 
interface, because since over a decade? all the chips support 
surround sound. There should be a hint how the user sets the onboard 
interface into multichannel mode via it's drivers control panel and 
then how to configure Mixxx to use each channel for master, cue, and 
so on.


Huh? Do you mean multichannel HDMI output? I've never come across an 
onboard sound card with more than 2 analog outputs.


But the problem are laptops I recognized while typing. They only have 
one line out jack and a mic in. > If it would be possible to 
configure the
mic in as a second stereo output it would be no deal (newer onboard 
chips are able for i/o switching i read).


AFAIK not that many onboard sound cards support switching the behavior 
of jacks and if it is supported, it may not be easy to figure out how 
to activate it. Also, having two separate jacks on a laptop seems to 
be rare today. My 6 year old laptop has separate mic input and 
headphone output jacks, but most new laptops combine the mic input and 
headphone output into one jack now.


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

On 09/20/2017 10:06 AM, Thorsten Munsch wrote:

Hey guys,

at first I wanted to suggest the user to use his only his onboard 
interface, because since over a decade? all the chips support surround 
sound. There should be a hint how the user sets the onboard interface 
into multichannel mode via it's drivers control panel and then how to 
configure Mixxx to use each channel for master, cue, and so on.


Huh? Do you mean multichannel HDMI output? I've never come across an 
onboard sound card with more than 2 analog outputs.


But the problem are laptops I recognized while typing. They only have 
one line out jack and a mic in. > If it would be possible to configure the
mic in as a second stereo output it would be no deal (newer onboard 
chips are able for i/o switching i read).


AFAIK not that many onboard sound cards support switching the behavior 
of jacks and if it is supported, it may not be easy to figure out how to 
activate it. Also, having two separate jacks on a laptop seems to be 
rare today. My 6 year old laptop has separate mic input and headphone 
output jacks, but most new laptops combine the mic input and headphone 
output into one jack now.


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Thorsten Munsch]

Hey guys,

at first I wanted to suggest the user to use his only his onboard 
interface, because since over a decade? all the chips support surround 
sound. There should be a hint how the user sets the onboard interface 
into multichannel mode via it's drivers control panel and then how to 
configure Mixxx to use each channel for master, cue, and so on.


That was the question which nearly was asked by every beginner who asked 
me for help.


But the problem are laptops I recognized while typing. They only have 
one line out jack and a mic in. If it would be possible to configure the 
mic in as a second stereo output it would be no deal (newer onboard 
chips are able for i/o switching i read). Only if the user needs two 
outputs and a mic/line in this doesn't work for sure.


In this case he should use a proper (external) interface at all (on 
Windows) and not combine two cards, because the known problems. Who 
wants that?


I don't have a Windows installation on a laptop to test this case, but 
maybe someone else can test it.




HTH
Thorsten

Am 14.09.2017 um 22:29 schrieb Daniel Schürmann:

No, most Soundcards have a WDM driver and some have also an ASIO driver.
It looks like all listed USB soundcards works with the gneric Windows 
USB sound driver.


This might be the usually story:
* A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
* He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO 
and Mixxx

* Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
* he install the ASIO4All driver
* The ASIO4All driver graps the onbord Soundcard and the USB soundcard 
via WDM

* result Sound is crackling.
* after messing around the user might be able to configure ASIO4All for 
its onboard sound only and the extra ASIO driver for his external soundcard
* result is crackling, because of the long latency and the still short 
buffer in Mixxx
* hours later, the Mixxx buffer is back at default 23 ms and the ASIO 
solution works.



Behringer makes the situation worse by shipping ASIO4ALL to pretend to 
be an ASIO device
Denon recommend to de-install all other ASIO drivers because of these 
problems


The better story:
* A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
* He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO 
and Mixxx

* Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
* Switch Mixxx back to WDM
* confgure both soundcards
* tweak the buffer
* have fun

Maybe we should detect ASIO4All and warn the user ;-)



Am 14.09.2017 um 19:44 schrieb Be:
Wouldn't that normally be the case when combining an external sound 
card and onboard sound card on Windows?


On 09/14/2017 08:54 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:
Ok, I have read a bit more. The only reason that justifies asio4all 
is to combine a Asio card with no WDM driver and a WDM card with no 
Asio driver. Using asio4all without any other Asio device is just an 
unnecessary software between Mixxx and the soundcard.

Using two WDM soundcards via asio4all may crackle.

Am 14.09.2017 3:30 nachm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" 
>:


    Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already
    recommend to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph
    for it so we can remove the crackling issue from the asio4all
    unrelated paragraphs. And give an advise "If you think you need
    asio4all, use WDM"


    Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" >:

    We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one
    sound card at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device,
    but in this case, if I understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync
    code is irrelevant. Users have reported crackling using ASIO4ALL
    this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30983#p30983
 ).


    On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

    Hi Be,

    Thank you for your latest changes.
    Here some comments:


    and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds
    in space.


    and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...

    However, this increases latency and there may be
    crackling on one sound card.


    Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and
    there may be crackling on one sound card, so


    It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case,
    so it throws a bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this.
    Can we just remove the second part until we have the
    evidence that the cracking is still there?

    The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates
    stereo samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this
    cannot be heared. The same is done for example if you push
    the rate slider a minimal 

Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Josep Maria Antolin]

​Soundcards integrated on controllers tend to offer an ASIO driver in order
to give better latency.

The way this driver is implemented depends on the brand and maybe also on
model.

Generally, the driver allows to switch to ASIO mode or to WDM mode. This
means that such soundcard cannot be used at the same time as ASIO and as
WDM.

In my case, the controller Hercules DJ Console 4-Mx has one such driver,
and by default it is set to WDM, so that it can be used with Windows as a
soundcard. If one opens the Hercules control panel, there is the option to
switch to ASIO and back (as well as other things like volume and jog
sensitivity).

In case of the Pioneer DDJ SB2 , there is also a driver that can be used as
ASIO and as WDM, but AFAIK, in this case it is setup to ASIO by default,
since they thought that the user will want to use it with the DJ software,
which is configured with ASIO by default.

Overall, I also found that using WDM-KS with Mixxx on Windows is a good
thing. ( KS is supported since Windows XP, so in terms of compatibility, it
is as good as MME or Directsound), and if someone needs ASIO, it should
know how that it needs to enable it.

Maybe what we could add is a warning if it detects that different
soundcards have been selected when choosing ASIO, until Mixxx gets the
capability to do so.
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

On 09/15/2017 03:15 AM, Sébastien Blaisot wrote:
If you have a single Asio soundcard (one with a real Asio driver, not 
asio4all) you should use Asio, because it bypassed all windows 
software layers for direct access to the hardware, offering the best 
latency.


If we assume that only a minority of users have such a device, we can 
consider to change the default API.


Troubles begin when a user has an ASIO-only device and a WDM-only 
device. (such as an ASIO-only controller with integrated sound and the 
internal soundcard.

Using both needs a additionnal layer like ASIO4ALL.


Considering most sound cards today, including the ones built into 
controllers, are USB audio class compliant, this would rarely be the 
case. So I think we should default to WDM-KS and advise to use ASIO if 
using a 4 output sound card that has an ASIO driver from the manufacturer.


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Sébastien Blaisot]

Le 15/09/2017 à 08:34, Daniel Schürmann a écrit :
> To be clear, onboard sound cards and USB class compliant sound cards (which 
includes every sound card listed on the wiki) should both work with 
WDM-KS?


I am pretty sure. But I cannot prove it.


AFAIK Daniel is right. Most soundcards are natively WDM-KS compliant. 
especially cheap ones.
The only soundcard with ASIO-only driver that I saw was high-grade 
soundcards or integrated into controllers.


If you have a single Asio soundcard (one with a real Asio driver, not 
asio4all) you should use Asio, because it bypassed all windows 
software layers for direct access to the hardware, offering the best 
latency.


If we assume that only a minority of users have such a device, we can 
consider to change the default API.


Troubles begin when a user has an ASIO-only device and a WDM-only 
device. (such as an ASIO-only controller with integrated sound and the 
internal soundcard.

Using both needs a additionnal layer like ASIO4ALL.

regards,

sb
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

> To be clear, onboard sound cards and USB class compliant sound cards
(which includes every sound card listed on the wiki) should both work with
WDM-KS?

I am pretty sure. But I cannot prove it.

If you have a single Asio soundcard (one with a real Asio driver, not
asio4all) you should use Asio, because it bypassed all windows software
layers for direct access to the hardware, offering the best latency.

If we assume that only a minority of users have such a device, we can
consider to change the default API.





Am 15.09.2017 12:25 vorm. schrieb "Be" :

To be clear, onboard sound cards and USB class compliant sound cards (which
includes every sound card listed on the wiki) should both work with WDM-KS?
Are you sure all onboard sound card drivers work with WDM-KS? So we should
we edit the manual to recommend using WDM-KS in this situation? Should we
change the default on Windows to WDM-KS? What advantage does ASIO offer
over WDM-KS?


On 09/14/2017 03:29 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

> No, most Soundcards have a WDM driver and some have also an ASIO driver.
> It looks like all listed USB soundcards works with the gneric Windows USB
> sound driver.
>
> This might be the usually story:
> * A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
> * He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO and
> Mixxx
> * Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
> * he install the ASIO4All driver
> * The ASIO4All driver graps the onbord Soundcard and the USB soundcard via
> WDM
> * result Sound is crackling.
> * after messing around the user might be able to configure ASIO4All for
> its onboard sound only and the extra ASIO driver for his external soundcard
> * result is crackling, because of the long latency and the still short
> buffer in Mixxx
> * hours later, the Mixxx buffer is back at default 23 ms and the ASIO
> solution works.
>
>
> Behringer makes the situation worse by shipping ASIO4ALL to pretend to be
> an ASIO device
> Denon recommend to de-install all other ASIO drivers because of these
> problems
>
> The better story:
> * A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
> * He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO and
> Mixxx
> * Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
> * Switch Mixxx back to WDM
> * confgure both soundcards
> * tweak the buffer
> * have fun
>
> Maybe we should detect ASIO4All and warn the user ;-)
>
>
>
> Am 14.09.2017 um 19:44 schrieb Be:
>
>> Wouldn't that normally be the case when combining an external sound card
>> and onboard sound card on Windows?
>>
>> On 09/14/2017 08:54 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I have read a bit more. The only reason that justifies asio4all is
>>> to combine a Asio card with no WDM driver and a WDM card with no Asio
>>> driver. Using asio4all without any other Asio device is just an unnecessary
>>> software between Mixxx and the soundcard.
>>> Using two WDM soundcards via asio4all may crackle.
>>>
>>> Am 14.09.2017 3:30 nachm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" >> >:
>>>
>>> Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already
>>> recommend to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph
>>> for it so we can remove the crackling issue from the asio4all
>>> unrelated paragraphs. And give an advise "If you think you need
>>> asio4all, use WDM"
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" >> >:
>>>
>>> We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one
>>> sound card at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device,
>>> but in this case, if I understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync
>>> code is irrelevant. Users have reported crackling using ASIO4ALL
>>> this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30983#p30983
>>>  ).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Be,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your latest changes.
>>> Here some comments:
>>>
>>>
>>> and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds
>>> in space.
>>>
>>>
>>> and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...
>>>
>>> However, this increases latency and there may be
>>> crackling on one sound card.
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and
>>> there may be crackling on one sound card, so
>>>
>>>
>>> It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case,
>>> so it throws a bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this.
>>> Can we just remove the second part until we have the
>>> evidence that the cracking is still there?
>>>
>>> The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates
>>>

Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

To be clear, onboard sound cards and USB class compliant sound cards 
(which includes every sound card listed on the wiki) should both work 
with WDM-KS? Are you sure all onboard sound card drivers work with 
WDM-KS? So we should we edit the manual to recommend using WDM-KS in 
this situation? Should we change the default on Windows to WDM-KS? What 
advantage does ASIO offer over WDM-KS?


On 09/14/2017 03:29 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

No, most Soundcards have a WDM driver and some have also an ASIO driver.
It looks like all listed USB soundcards works with the gneric Windows 
USB sound driver.


This might be the usually story:
* A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
* He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO 
and Mixxx

* Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
* he install the ASIO4All driver
* The ASIO4All driver graps the onbord Soundcard and the USB soundcard 
via WDM

* result Sound is crackling.
* after messing around the user might be able to configure ASIO4All for 
its onboard sound only and the extra ASIO driver for his external soundcard
* result is crackling, because of the long latency and the still short 
buffer in Mixxx
* hours later, the Mixxx buffer is back at default 23 ms and the ASIO 
solution works.



Behringer makes the situation worse by shipping ASIO4ALL to pretend to 
be an ASIO device
Denon recommend to de-install all other ASIO drivers because of these 
problems


The better story:
* A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
* He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO 
and Mixxx

* Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
* Switch Mixxx back to WDM
* confgure both soundcards
* tweak the buffer
* have fun

Maybe we should detect ASIO4All and warn the user ;-)



Am 14.09.2017 um 19:44 schrieb Be:
Wouldn't that normally be the case when combining an external sound 
card and onboard sound card on Windows?


On 09/14/2017 08:54 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:
Ok, I have read a bit more. The only reason that justifies asio4all 
is to combine a Asio card with no WDM driver and a WDM card with no 
Asio driver. Using asio4all without any other Asio device is just an 
unnecessary software between Mixxx and the soundcard.

Using two WDM soundcards via asio4all may crackle.

Am 14.09.2017 3:30 nachm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" 
>:


Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already
recommend to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph
for it so we can remove the crackling issue from the asio4all
unrelated paragraphs. And give an advise "If you think you need
asio4all, use WDM"


Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" >:

We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one
sound card at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device,
but in this case, if I understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync
code is irrelevant. Users have reported crackling using ASIO4ALL
this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30983#p30983
 ).


On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

Thank you for your latest changes.
Here some comments:


and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds
in space.


and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...

However, this increases latency and there may be
crackling on one sound card.


Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and
there may be crackling on one sound card, so


It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case,
so it throws a bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this.
Can we just remove the second part until we have the
evidence that the cracking is still there?

The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates
stereo samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this
cannot be heared. The same is done for example if you push
the rate slider a minimal step.


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:

 I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki
to have less
 technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly
explanations of the
 pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed
some
 discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more
useful now
 for users considering what hardware to get.

Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

No, most Soundcards have a WDM driver and some have also an ASIO driver.
It looks like all listed USB soundcards works with the gneric Windows 
USB sound driver.


This might be the usually story:
* A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
* He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO 
and Mixxx

* Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
* he install the ASIO4All driver
* The ASIO4All driver graps the onbord Soundcard and the USB soundcard 
via WDM

* result Sound is crackling.
* after messing around the user might be able to configure ASIO4All for 
its onboard sound only and the extra ASIO driver for his external soundcard
* result is crackling, because of the long latency and the still short 
buffer in Mixxx
* hours later, the Mixxx buffer is back at default 23 ms and the ASIO 
solution works.



Behringer makes the situation worse by shipping ASIO4ALL to pretend to 
be an ASIO device
Denon recommend to de-install all other ASIO drivers because of these 
problems


The better story:
* A user byes an USB soundcard with an ASIO driver from CD
* He installs the ASIO driver, and configures his new device with ASIO 
and Mixxx

* Now he cannot use the onborad sound :-(
* Switch Mixxx back to WDM
* confgure both soundcards
* tweak the buffer
* have fun

Maybe we should detect ASIO4All and warn the user ;-)



Am 14.09.2017 um 19:44 schrieb Be:
Wouldn't that normally be the case when combining an external sound 
card and onboard sound card on Windows?


On 09/14/2017 08:54 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:
Ok, I have read a bit more. The only reason that justifies asio4all 
is to combine a Asio card with no WDM driver and a WDM card with no 
Asio driver. Using asio4all without any other Asio device is just an 
unnecessary software between Mixxx and the soundcard.

Using two WDM soundcards via asio4all may crackle.

Am 14.09.2017 3:30 nachm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" 
>:


Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already
recommend to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph
for it so we can remove the crackling issue from the asio4all
unrelated paragraphs. And give an advise "If you think you need
asio4all, use WDM"


Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" >:

We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one
sound card at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device,
but in this case, if I understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync
code is irrelevant. Users have reported crackling using ASIO4ALL
this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30983#p30983
 ).


On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

Thank you for your latest changes.
Here some comments:


and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds
in space.


and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...

However, this increases latency and there may be
crackling on one sound card.


Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and
there may be crackling on one sound card, so


It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case,
so it throws a bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this.
Can we just remove the second part until we have the
evidence that the cracking is still there?

The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates
stereo samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this
cannot be heared. The same is done for example if you push
the rate slider a minimal step.


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:

 I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki
to have less
 technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly
explanations of the
 pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed
some
 discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more
useful now
 for users considering what hardware to get.

https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards

>

--
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world's most
 engaging tech sites, 

Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

Wouldn't that normally be the case when combining an external sound card 
and onboard sound card on Windows?


On 09/14/2017 08:54 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:
Ok, I have read a bit more. The only reason that justifies asio4all is 
to combine a Asio card with no WDM driver and a WDM card with no Asio 
driver. Using asio4all without any other Asio device is just an 
unnecessary software between Mixxx and the soundcard.

Using two WDM soundcards via asio4all may crackle.

Am 14.09.2017 3:30 nachm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" >:


Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already
recommend to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph
for it so we can remove the crackling issue from the asio4all
unrelated paragraphs. And give an advise "If you think you need
asio4all, use WDM"


Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" >:

We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one
sound card at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device,
but in this case, if I understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync
code is irrelevant. Users have reported crackling using ASIO4ALL
this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30983#p30983
 ).


On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

Thank you for your latest changes.
Here some comments:


and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds
in space.


and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...

However, this increases latency and there may be
crackling on one sound card.


Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and
there may be crackling on one sound card, so


It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case,
so it throws a bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this.
Can we just remove the second part until we have the
evidence that the cracking is still there?

The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates
stereo samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this
cannot be heared. The same is done for example if you push
the rate slider a minimal step.


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:

 I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki
to have less
 technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly
explanations of the
 pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed
some
 discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more
useful now
 for users considering what hardware to get.


https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards



>


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 Mixxx-devel mailing list
Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

 >
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>





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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Ok, I have read a bit more. The only reason that justifies asio4all is to
combine a Asio card with no WDM driver and a WDM card with no Asio driver.
Using asio4all without any other Asio device is just an unnecessary
software between Mixxx and the soundcard.
Using two WDM soundcards via asio4all may crackle.

Am 14.09.2017 3:30 nachm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" :

Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already recommend
to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph for it so we can
remove the crackling issue from the asio4all unrelated paragraphs. And give
an advise "If you think you need asio4all, use WDM"


Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" :

We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one sound card
at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device, but in this case, if I
understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync code is irrelevant. Users have
reported crackling using ASIO4ALL this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewt
opic.php?p=30983#p30983 ).


On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

> Hi Be,
>
> Thank you for your latest changes.
> Here some comments:
>
>
> and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds in space.
>>
>
> and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...
>
> However, this increases latency and there may be crackling on one sound
>> card.
>>
>
> Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and there may be
>> crackling on one sound card, so
>>
>
> It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case, so it throws a
> bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this. Can we just remove the second
> part until we have the evidence that the cracking is still there?
>
> The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates stereo
> samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this cannot be heared. The
> same is done for example if you push the rate slider a minimal step.
>
>
> Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:
>
> I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
> technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the
> pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed some
> discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now
> for users considering what hardware to get.
>
> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards
>  sound_cards>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
> http://mixxx.org
>
>
> Mixxx-devel mailing list
> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
> 
>
>
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Ah, ok I understand. Asio4all makes the things worse. We already recommend
to not use it at all. I think we already have a paragraph for it so we can
remove the crackling issue from the asio4all unrelated paragraphs. And give
an advise "If you think you need asio4all, use WDM"

Am 14.09.2017 12:03 nachm. schrieb "Be" :

We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one sound card
at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device, but in this case, if I
understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync code is irrelevant. Users have
reported crackling using ASIO4ALL this way ( https://mixxx.org/forums/viewt
opic.php?p=30983#p30983 ).


On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

> Hi Be,
>
> Thank you for your latest changes.
> Here some comments:
>
>
> and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds in space.
>>
>
> and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...
>
> However, this increases latency and there may be crackling on one sound
>> card.
>>
>
> Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and there may be
>> crackling on one sound card, so
>>
>
> It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case, so it throws a
> bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this. Can we just remove the second
> part until we have the evidence that the cracking is still there?
>
> The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates stereo
> samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this cannot be heared. The
> same is done for example if you push the rate slider a minimal step.
>
>
> Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:
>
> I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
> technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the
> pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed some
> discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now
> for users considering what hardware to get.
>
> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards
>  sound_cards>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
> http://mixxx.org
>
>
> Mixxx-devel mailing list
> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
> 
>
>
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

We still have the issue with ASIO on Windows only supporting one sound 
card at a time. ASIO4ALL can present an aggregate device, but in this 
case, if I understand correctly, Mixxx's clock sync code is irrelevant. 
Users have reported crackling using ASIO4ALL this way ( 
https://mixxx.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30983#p30983 ).


On 09/14/2017 03:29 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

Thank you for your latest changes.
Here some comments:



and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds in space.


and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...

However, this increases latency and there may be crackling on one sound card. 


Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and there may be crackling on one sound card, so 


It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case, so it throws 
a bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this. Can we just remove the 
second part until we have the evidence that the cracking is still there?


The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates stereo 
samples to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this cannot be heared. 
The same is done for example if you push the rate slider a minimal step.



Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be" >:

I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the
pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed some
discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now
for users considering what hardware to get.

https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards



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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Hi Be,

Thank you for your latest changes.
Here some comments:


> and you cannot hear the arrangement of different sounds in space.

and you lose the stereo effect, the arrangements of ...

> However, this increases latency and there may be crackling on one sound
card.

> Also, using multiple sound cards increases latency and there may be
crackling on one sound card, so

It was a lot of work to remove the crackling in this case, so it throws a
bad light on Mixxx if we still pretend this. Can we just remove the second
part until we have the evidence that the cracking is still there?

The only remaining issue is that Mixxx removed or duplicates stereo samples
to catch up. You loose bit perfect but this cannot be heared. The same is
done for example if you push the rate slider a minimal step.


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be" :

> I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
> technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the pros and
> cons of different devices. I have also removed some discontinued and
> unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now for users considering
> what hardware to get.
>
> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> http://mixxx.org
>
>
> Mixxx-devel mailing list
> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

I have revised the table to put more information back into a table form 
with less text. I put in a row for generic USB thumb drive style sound 
cards. I have added the Behringer UMC22 and Focusrite Scarlett Solo as 
cheaper options for broadcasting.


I will work on moving much of the text from that wiki page to the manual 
in my PR for the manual ( https://github.com/mixxxdj/manual/pull/60 ). I 
think the wiki page should mostly just have the tables of devices, which 
are updated more frequently than the manual.


On 09/11/2017 04:00 PM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Am 11.09.2017 um 19:21 schrieb Be:
I was using Mixxx to compare my MOTU Ultralite AVB with my RME 
Babyface Pro (to decide whether to keep the Ultralite and sell the 
Babyface Pro) by sending Deck 1 to one sound card and Deck 2 to the 
other. After a while, one of them started crackling. I have not tested 
again to check if I can reproduce the issue, but I can try.


This sounds like the issue we have if you disable multi-soundcard sync. 
If this happens on any other setting, we have still an issue in our 
syncing code. Which Audio API did you use? Could you try it again? Or 
test your remaining soundcard with your internal soundcard?


IMO it is better to recommend a DJ splitter cable than USB thumb type 
sound card. Those USB thumb type sound cards come from lots of unknown 
manufacturers and sometimes have quirks in the hardware and/or driver 
that make them difficult to configure, particularly on Windows. On the 
other hand, plugging a DJ splitter cable into an onboard sound card is 
certain to work if the onboard sound card works and does not have the 
issue of using two sound cards.


Interestingly an USB thumb sound card is cheaper than a spitter cable 
and has in most cases a headphone amp included and keeps the stereo 
signal valid. So If you do not play that sound to your audience, it is a 
perfectly valid solution. It is OK not to recommend it. But it feels 
also odd remove it entirely from the article. At least we should discuss 
pro and cons in the main USB chapter and not ignore it.



On 09/11/2017 11:06 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

I think your latest changes are not that good. In my experiences 
Mixxx works nice without any notable crackling with two soundcards 
and we schould note that in the general USB paragraph along with the 
disadvantages and not hidden in a special soundcards section.


Remember that not every user plays flac files on a pro PA. We have 
also users who play YouTube rips at their living room stereo, and for 
those an USB thumb type soundcard for preview just suits.


By the way, what are your two soundcard issues? Do we have a bug for it?

Kind regards,

Daniel.



Am 11.09.2017 8:57 vorm. schrieb "Be" >:


I have added a note about that in the table for the Behringer
UFO202. I also noted that there may be crackling on one sound card.
Although the clock synchronization code helps, in my experience it
is not perfect.


On 09/11/2017 01:20 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

thank you. Could you please add a sentence, about why using two
soundcard is not recommended?

Something like this:
"
In case if two sound cards, Mixxx needs to sync them using some
extra Cpu. The latency resulting latency is in general a way
bigger than the minimum usable latency of the slowest type 
paired"


Thank you.

Kind regards,

Daniel


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:


 I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to
have less
 technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations
of the
 pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed 
some

 discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more
useful now
 for users considering what hardware to get.

https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards

> 



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 Mixxx-devel mailing list
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 >

Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

I was using Mixxx to compare my MOTU Ultralite AVB with my RME Babyface 
Pro (to decide whether to keep the Ultralite and sell the Babyface Pro) 
by sending Deck 1 to one sound card and Deck 2 to the other. After a 
while, one of them started crackling. I have not tested again to check 
if I can reproduce the issue, but I can try.


IMO it is better to recommend a DJ splitter cable than USB thumb type 
sound card. Those USB thumb type sound cards come from lots of unknown 
manufacturers and sometimes have quirks in the hardware and/or driver 
that make them difficult to configure, particularly on Windows. On the 
other hand, plugging a DJ splitter cable into an onboard sound card is 
certain to work if the onboard sound card works and does not have the 
issue of using two sound cards.


On 09/11/2017 11:06 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

I think your latest changes are not that good. In my experiences Mixxx 
works nice without any notable crackling with two soundcards and we 
schould note that in the general USB paragraph along with the 
disadvantages and not hidden in a special soundcards section.


Remember that not every user plays flac files on a pro PA. We have also 
users who play YouTube rips at their living room stereo, and for those 
an USB thumb type soundcard for preview just suits.


By the way, what are your two soundcard issues? Do we have a bug for it?

Kind regards,

Daniel.



Am 11.09.2017 8:57 vorm. schrieb "Be" >:

I have added a note about that in the table for the Behringer
UFO202. I also noted that there may be crackling on one sound card.
Although the clock synchronization code helps, in my experience it
is not perfect.


On 09/11/2017 01:20 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

thank you. Could you please add a sentence, about why using two
soundcard is not recommended?

Something like this:
"
In case if two sound cards, Mixxx needs to sync them using some
extra Cpu. The latency resulting latency is in general a way
bigger than the minimum usable latency of the slowest type paired"

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Daniel


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:

 I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to
have less
 technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations
of the
 pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed some
 discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more
useful now
 for users considering what hardware to get.

https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards


>


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 >




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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Hi Be,

I think your latest changes are not that good. In my experiences Mixxx
works nice without any notable crackling with two soundcards and we schould
note that in the general USB paragraph along with the disadvantages and not
hidden in a special soundcards section.

Remember that not every user plays flac files on a pro PA. We have also
users who play YouTube rips at their living room stereo, and for those an
USB thumb type soundcard for preview just suits.

By the way, what are your two soundcard issues? Do we have a bug for it?

Kind regards,

Daniel.



Am 11.09.2017 8:57 vorm. schrieb "Be" :

I have added a note about that in the table for the Behringer UFO202. I
also noted that there may be crackling on one sound card. Although the
clock synchronization code helps, in my experience it is not perfect.


On 09/11/2017 01:20 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

> Hi Be,
>
> thank you. Could you please add a sentence, about why using two soundcard
> is not recommended?
>
> Something like this:
> "
> In case if two sound cards, Mixxx needs to sync them using some extra Cpu.
> The latency resulting latency is in general a way bigger than the minimum
> usable latency of the slowest type paired"
>
> Thank you.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Daniel
>
>
> Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be"  >>:
>
> I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
> technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the
> pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed some
> discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now
> for users considering what hardware to get.
>
> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards
>  sound_cards>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> http://mixxx.org
>
>
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> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
> 
>
>
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Be]

I have added a note about that in the table for the Behringer UFO202. I 
also noted that there may be crackling on one sound card. Although the 
clock synchronization code helps, in my experience it is not perfect.


On 09/11/2017 01:20 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

Hi Be,

thank you. Could you please add a sentence, about why using two 
soundcard is not recommended?


Something like this:
"
In case if two sound cards, Mixxx needs to sync them using some extra 
Cpu. The latency resulting latency is in general a way bigger than the 
minimum usable latency of the slowest type paired"


Thank you.

Kind regards,

Daniel


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be" >:

I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the
pros and cons of different devices. I have also removed some
discontinued and unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now
for users considering what hardware to get.

https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards



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Re: [Mixxx-devel] USB sound card table update

[Daniel Schürmann]

Hi Be,

thank you. Could you please add a sentence, about why using two soundcard
is not recommended?

Something like this:
"
In case if two sound cards, Mixxx needs to sync them using some extra Cpu.
The latency resulting latency is in general a way bigger than the minimum
usable latency of the slowest type paired"

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Daniel


Am 11.09.2017 1:32 vorm. schrieb "Be" :

> I have revised the table of USB sound cards on the wiki to have less
> technical mumbo jumbo and more user friendly explanations of the pros and
> cons of different devices. I have also removed some discontinued and
> unpopular devices. I hope this is more useful now for users considering
> what hardware to get.
>
> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hardware_compatibility#usb_sound_cards
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
> http://mixxx.org
>
>
> Mixxx-devel mailing list
> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot___
Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
http://mixxx.org


Mixxx-devel mailing list
Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel