RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Matt Sergeant wrote: [...] Personally I'd find it hard to hire a telecommuter unless I had really great references _and_ solid evidence of their knowledge (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED] postings). That's how I've been hired. that is also how we have found our contractors at ValueClick, so it is most recommended to do some work on answering those questions. ;-) - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - http://www.netcetera.dk/~ask/ more than 60M impressions per day, http://valueclick.com
RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 03 Dec 1999, David Harris wrote: Jason Bodnar wrote: Unfortunately, another big part of the problem is that many so-called 'forward thinking' companies aren't willing to hire tele-commuters, even for contract positions. I'm interested in doing some moonlight consultant work but there isn't alot of mod_perl activity going on in Austin, Texas. Do other people agree with this? I'm going to be putting my resume out in a week possibly looking for a short term (few weeks to a month or so) consulting jig. How open will people be to having me consult on a tele-commuting basis? (Or I could commute to DC/Nortern-VA/MD.) And how much short-term contract work is there available? It's out there. I've done lots of work for a certain publishing company in Sebastopol CA... (they approached me though - I've not seen much advertising for telecommuters). Personally I'd find it hard to hire a telecommuter unless I had really great references _and_ solid evidence of their knowledge (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED] postings). That's how I've been hired. -- Matt/ Details: FastNet Software Ltd - XML, Perl, Databases. Tagline: High Performance Web Solutions Web Sites: http://come.to/fastnet http://sergeant.org Available for Consultancy, Contracts and Training.
RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Ok, me too. (I've checked to see if - when! - anyone would object to such non-technical postings but haven't seen one yet. I think we should set up a recruiting website for mod_perl which would help everybody while propagating mod_perl as a development platform. For example, I'm very often asked, "wouldn't it have been easier if you had started with Microsoft stack - tons of talent available!".) At www.provillage.com, we have built our entire suite for CSP(TM) (Community Service Provider) on Linux/mod_perl/mysql. The product needs finishing touches and we're sorely looking for some great apache/mod_perl talent to acclerate this last stage of push as well as implement new features. Very near to launching the first commercial CSP website. As an internet startup company, we have the usual goodies (great option package, great pay, great friendly environment, etc.). Located in Chicago. In addition, we encourage people to work from home. Results only count - don't care where it comes from :-) A 3 month assignment is also doable, if you are transitioning, and would like something short-term. Thanks, Sanjiv Nath [EMAIL PROTECTED] ProVillage Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Geoff Crawshaw Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I might as well pile on :-) At TimeBills.com (www.timebills.com) we are looking for smart, talented mod_perl/perl developers to help us build a complete suite of small business applications. We are location in Boston (Back bay for now, moving to South Station in January). Seed funded and in the final throes of a solid first round of VC funding. Open Source shop as much as possible, Linux, Apache, Mod_perl, CVS, Emacs etc. We have a really good, fun crew, good option packages, experienced management, lots of upside etc. Check out our web site, play with the application and if you are interested drop me an email. -- Geoff Crawshaw CTO TimeBills.com Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timebills.com Andy Pruitt - Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 07:38:46PM -0600 Me too Yet Another Well Funded Startup Company: DigitalWork.com location: Chicago, IL company: E-Commere B2B startup, probably largest true startup in Chicago assets: 4 rounds of funding, VC's include Draper, Fisher Jurvetson culture: startup -- stock options, pool table, stock options, playstation, stock options, free drinks, smart folks, stock options, etc hardware: Sun, Linux farm software: apache 1.3.9/mod_perl 1.2.1 HTML::Mason Oracle8i We're looking to hire as many folks as we can. We really are pre-IPO, but only are recruiters and PR people can talk about that part. /Me too From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kreimendahl, Chad J Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:51 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; mod_perl list Subject: RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I can describe what I mean when I say "mod_perl experience". I think that to most it means this as well. mod_perl experience is just a nifty word to aid in the finding of someone who has the style of perl which fits the requirements of mod_perl. The ability to keep everything within scope; ability to write modular code; an overall c programming style to perl. Whether or not you've actually written anything for to be run under a mod_perl apache doesn't really mean much. If someone familiar with programming for mod_perl were to look at your code, it would be fairly easy for me to see if you had the ability to be a mod_perl developer. In fact... if anyone is interested in a job using mod_perl... I need 3 people by the end of this month. a little background on the company, project and group. Company: location: Kansas city, mo company: financial institution assets: 7+ billion culture: suits (overall bank culture) Group: Internet services culture: laid back, open environment, no real dress code, flexible time, smart people Project: business to business e-commerce site hardware: Sun Cluster software: apache 1.3.9/stronghold/mod_perl 1.2.1 (Solaris 2.6) CVS Oracle 8i The money is very good for the region... email me if you're interested From: Scott Chapman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:35 AM To: mod_perl list Subject: Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I am new to Mod_Perl. I don't know what all it's good for. My question is, what do they mean by "mod_perl experience". I can compile Apache with mod_perl and make emb_perl work correctly but I highly doubt that is all they are after. Being new to this, I'd like some perspective from those more experienced.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Hi again, all, On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Victor Zamouline wrote: So, a company hiring VB developers knows that these are humble and obedient guys who will make the application work, even if an extra semicolon will ruin the whole program. And that is perfectly OK with such companies because they sell the product and the MAINTENANCE behind it (they call it "maintenance", but it actually means re-writing the whole program when the client only needs an extra semicolon). C'est la vie. Caveat emptor. Bummer. But a good Perl programmer is more often uncontrollable, he writes a perfect program, but no one else understands it, H. So when I spread the mod_perl word, I make sure I don't make my client hire another bunch of VB programmers after what I told them about mod_perl during the training. :))) Hang on, fellas, isn't this getting a bit unnecessarily evangelist? Tools like mod_perl are just that. Tools. I'd no more want to `spread the word' aobut mod_perl than I would about my welding set. But if I saw somebody struggling to join two bits of HR40 together, drilling holes in it and messing about with nuts and bolts, I'd say `Hey, have you seen how easy it is to do it this way, and what a good job it does?'. Then I'd go on to explain that he needs to get acquainted with a whole raft of things like hydrogen embrittlement, position, stress relief, non-destructive testing, and any number of health hazards. When he's done that he will be able to choose the best tool to do the job he has in front of him. It might be a drill. It will have been for his benefit, so he can get the job done better, not to make me feel good about another convert. 73 Ged.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Hi all, On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Gunther Birznieks wrote: Just putting in use strict and -w doesn't cut it. There's a load of gotchas that people just have to understand and learn on top of Perl skills. Too true. This is a topic in its own right. I believe that mod_perl could be made into an almost indispensable part of any Apache setup if only it were not so easy to fall into the traps it sets for you. As it is I think many people will simply walk away from it because it's about as programmer-friendly as a cornered rat. Come to think of it, Stas, how about a rat? 73:) Ged.
RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Me too Yet Another Well Funded Startup Company: DigitalWork.com location: Chicago, IL company: E-Commere B2B startup, probably largest true startup in Chicago assets: 4 rounds of funding, VC's include Draper, Fisher Jurvetson culture: startup -- stock options, pool table, stock options, playstation, stock options, free drinks, smart folks, stock options, etc hardware: Sun, Linux farm software: apache 1.3.9/mod_perl 1.2.1 HTML::Mason Oracle8i We're looking to hire as many folks as we can. We really are pre-IPO, but only are recruiters and PR people can talk about that part. /Me too -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kreimendahl, Chad J Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:51 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; mod_perl list Subject: RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I can describe what I mean when I say "mod_perl experience". I think that to most it means this as well. mod_perl experience is just a nifty word to aid in the finding of someone who has the style of perl which fits the requirements of mod_perl. The ability to keep everything within scope; ability to write modular code; an overall c programming style to perl. Whether or not you've actually written anything for to be run under a mod_perl apache doesn't really mean much. If someone familiar with programming for mod_perl were to look at your code, it would be fairly easy for me to see if you had the ability to be a mod_perl developer. In fact... if anyone is interested in a job using mod_perl... I need 3 people by the end of this month. a little background on the company, project and group. Company: location: Kansas city, mo company: financial institution assets: 7+ billion culture: suits (overall bank culture) Group: Internet services culture: laid back, open environment, no real dress code, flexible time, smart people Project: business to business e-commerce site hardware: Sun Cluster software: apache 1.3.9/stronghold/mod_perl 1.2.1 (Solaris 2.6) CVS Oracle 8i The money is very good for the region... email me if you're interested -Original Message- From: Scott Chapman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:35 AM To: mod_perl list Subject: Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I am new to Mod_Perl. I don't know what all it's good for. My question is, what do they mean by "mod_perl experience". I can compile Apache with mod_perl and make emb_perl work correctly but I highly doubt that is all they are after. Being new to this, I'd like some perspective from those more experienced.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Suddenly, Stas Bekman uttered: Hi, folks You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: *Sigh* Lots of jobs in the US, but none in Norway... :( I've been lurking on this list a little while and have played a little with mod_perl on may spare time. The impression I get is that mod_perl is _really_ fun, mostly because I can do anything I want with it, and secondly becuse it's perl and apache. :) I've been twiddling aroud with perl a couple of years now, and even held a couple of beginners courses at the University. Right now i feel like using more time on some Open Source project, and mod_perl looks like the thing I'd like to work with... So... Are there any mod_perl-related projects or "chores" that need help from an interested perl-programmer which needs something to do while he's looking for a job? - Salve J. Nilsen -- Hm. Maybe I should compose an english .sig?
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
I might as well pile on :-) At TimeBills.com (www.timebills.com) we are looking for smart, talented mod_perl/perl developers to help us build a complete suite of small business applications. We are location in Boston (Back bay for now, moving to South Station in January). Seed funded and in the final throes of a solid first round of VC funding. Open Source shop as much as possible, Linux, Apache, Mod_perl, CVS, Emacs etc. We have a really good, fun crew, good option packages, experienced management, lots of upside etc. Check out our web site, play with the application and if you are interested drop me an email. -- Geoff Crawshaw CTO TimeBills.com Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.timebills.com Andy Pruitt - Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 07:38:46PM -0600 Me too Yet Another Well Funded Startup Company: DigitalWork.com location: Chicago, IL company: E-Commere B2B startup, probably largest true startup in Chicago assets: 4 rounds of funding, VC's include Draper, Fisher Jurvetson culture: startup -- stock options, pool table, stock options, playstation, stock options, free drinks, smart folks, stock options, etc hardware: Sun, Linux farm software: apache 1.3.9/mod_perl 1.2.1 HTML::Mason Oracle8i We're looking to hire as many folks as we can. We really are pre-IPO, but only are recruiters and PR people can talk about that part. /Me too From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kreimendahl, Chad J Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:51 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; mod_perl list Subject: RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I can describe what I mean when I say "mod_perl experience". I think that to most it means this as well. mod_perl experience is just a nifty word to aid in the finding of someone who has the style of perl which fits the requirements of mod_perl. The ability to keep everything within scope; ability to write modular code; an overall c programming style to perl. Whether or not you've actually written anything for to be run under a mod_perl apache doesn't really mean much. If someone familiar with programming for mod_perl were to look at your code, it would be fairly easy for me to see if you had the ability to be a mod_perl developer. In fact... if anyone is interested in a job using mod_perl... I need 3 people by the end of this month. a little background on the company, project and group. Company: location: Kansas city, mo company: financial institution assets: 7+ billion culture: suits (overall bank culture) Group: Internet services culture: laid back, open environment, no real dress code, flexible time, smart people Project: business to business e-commerce site hardware: Sun Cluster software: apache 1.3.9/stronghold/mod_perl 1.2.1 (Solaris 2.6) CVS Oracle 8i The money is very good for the region... email me if you're interested From: Scott Chapman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:35 AM To: mod_perl list Subject: Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I am new to Mod_Perl. I don't know what all it's good for. My question is, what do they mean by "mod_perl experience". I can compile Apache with mod_perl and make emb_perl work correctly but I highly doubt that is all they are after. Being new to this, I'd like some perspective from those more experienced.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
At 23:19 03/12/1999 +0200, Stas Bekman wrote: There are a few logos on the site, and we can add some more (I don't know if we would manage to agree on one, though it'd give a stronger sense of "brand"). Right. This talk is about a commercial success. The /perl.apache.org/logos/mod_perl.gif logo represents a bridge between two products (makes one think of a gadget!), not really a product. I remember my first interest to Java associated with the coffee cup, or my first interest to Perl associated with the camel, or even Apache's feather. Well, someone mentioned an eagle. How about the eagle image for an alternative mod_perl logo? I was thinking about hedgehog as one that protected from everything, exactly like mod_perl... I like both. If it is an eagle, we can use anything as long as it isn't a "white-tailed eagle" the association of which with "the topic of Apache modules" is (c) O'Reilly. I can do graphics but I'm no good at drawing. If anyone has the opposite skills configuration, I'm willing to take care of the (web-)graphic part. .Robin You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
At 18:04 03/12/1999 -0600, Jason Bodnar wrote: You really can't compare mod_perl to ASP or JSP, though, IMHO. Compare those two technologies to Embperl or ePerl or Apache::ASP. That's true. And then compare mod_perl handlers with ISAPI extensions and filters. Mod_perl isn't that hard after all :) Perhaps if we want to seduce more people to mod_perl, it would be a good idea to stress further the fact that there is no need to learn the Apache API to get a hell of a lot of power from mod_perl. Knowing one of the Perl embedding solutions is way enough to create a totally dynamic website that goes much faster than CGI. And here the thing to do would be to help people choose the mod_perl solution they need. To speed up CGI, Registry is enough. To play with the internals of the request process, you need the API. That's clear, yet it could be made even clearer. The biggest problem arises when you want ASP/JSP/CFML/etc style functionality. There are so many that it really gets confusing. I've been at mod_perl for quite some time, but I must admit that I've got no idea which of those would be best suited for which kind of job. I haven't seen them all, but none of those I've seen were bad. Some have more functionality than others, but smaller = less memory usage. It would be really great if we could come up with a clear and short list of pros and cons plus a brief description for each of them, and it would be even better if that list came from the authors. The site organisation which I'll be submitting tonight has a space for this. Any ideas ? The problem with an ISP supporting mod_perl is the fact that you're giving so much power to your clients. It's very easy to bring down an entire physical server by writing a bad handler (or even a bad embperl page). True too, but then very few ISPs support ISAPI extensions, knowing that these too break a server down when they fail. However one could imagine an ISP supporting a Perl embedding scheme (provided that it is safe enough). The problem is again which one to choose ? MiniGuide == ManyPagesGuide now. The fact is that the knowledge is there. But it really does require a guide that is that large to really know how to do good mod_perl code and exploit its advantages. And even then... Maybe a Guide to the Guide somewhere in between the refcard and the actual Guide would be of some help. At the same time, I think that a mod_perl cookbook would be a great idea. If no one has the tuits to start that now, when the site is finished I will. A few generic and well-documented handler examples for each type of Perl*Handler would be good enough to start with, and then anyone can add. However starting now would be great. .Robin James Joyce -- an essentially private man who wished his total indifference to public notice to be universally recognized. -- Tom Stoppard
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
At 18:29 04/12/1999 +1100, Rod Butcher wrote: Um... how about a mythical beast with the head of an eagle and the body of a camel ? Or a feather made of camel fur... :) .Robin James Joyce -- an essentially private man who wished his total indifference to public notice to be universally recognized. -- Tom Stoppard
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Stas Bekman wrote: I was thinking about hedgehog as one that protected from everything, exactly like mod_perl... Now why didn't _I_ think of that? 73 Ged.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Suddenly, Michael Dearman uttered: "G.W. Haywood" wrote: How about ``Eagle''? Exactly what I was just thinking. Apache Stronghold Apache Eagle Logo? Eagle floating over the feather? Or, the feather floating under the Eagle. An Eagle Feather. Maybe an eagle with a single red-blue-yellow feather in its wing? - Salve -- Better write that english .sig soon...
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 03 Dec 1999, Gidon Wise wrote: Hello Everybody, I believe it is true. We could have more more mod_perl programmers. I think that the biggest problem/opportunity that mod_perl has in terms of proliferation amongst programmers/users is that Hosts currently do not provide mod_perl on cheap virtual server package. I think a whole lot of perl programmers and non perl programmers would move to mod_perl if the service was provided. Currently in The Guide it discusses 3 possibilities for Hosts. http://perl.apache.org/guide/multiuser.html#ISPs_providing_mod_perl_services Are there any other ways that we can suggest to hosts which are easier for all involved? I am not that experienced with mod_perl so I cannot propose a robust solution. But I do believe there must be one. Even a limited/special version or configuration of mod_perl would do. What hosts want is a secure way to host mod_perl like suexec (so they can assign users ulimit's). I don't know if (how) that can be achieved with mod_perl - it's been discussed before with no solution. -- Matt/ Details: FastNet Software Ltd - XML, Perl, Databases. Tagline: High Performance Web Solutions Web Sites: http://come.to/fastnet http://sergeant.org Available for Consultancy, Contracts and Training.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Jason Bodnar wrote: On 03-Dec-99 Gunther Birznieks wrote: I think mod_perl is sufficiently hard that even as more people learn how to do the simple stuff, mod_perl will still be 'difficult' enough. I don't think it is like Java or Perl where the stratification is there in the language knowledge. Unless mod_perl itself gets easier, I don't see it beinglike ASP or JSP or Servlets (being a new technology people will eventually learn). I don't see how people can say mod_perl is "hard". It's the Apache API in perl (with some niceties). If you know perl, you learn the API and that's that. It's no different than learning an API for some other product. Well, it really helps to understand the response process of Apache. You really can't compare mod_perl to ASP or JSP, though, IMHO. Compare those two technologies to Embperl or ePerl or Apache::ASP. The reason it is different is that you have to be in the top 15 percentile to debug and write mod_perl code which won't hav subtle errors. Just putting in use strict and -w doesn't cut it. There's a load of gotchas that people just have to understand and learn on top of Perl skills. I don't think it is about training either. It's a matter of making mod_perl easier. It just really is not easy. How are you going to make it easier? Create a GUI RAD IDE (gotta get in the buzzwords) for creating handlers? One of the things I love about mod_perl is that there are enough modules out there to do what you want most of the time without writing your own. Apache::Run is a start of whatI am talking about. But even then. Also installation is not all that easy to troubleshoot for UNIX novices. Again, it's hard enough finding a good perl programmer, but finding someone who can compile everything together and understand it all is a top 15 percentile ( and I think I am being generous) skill which I don't think simple training will help with. You don't have to be top 15th percentile VB or top 15th percentile Java to write ASPs or Servlets respectively. Although for servlets, I would say top 50th at least if you don't want a completely crappy OO servlet architecture. I don't think the fact that the mini-guide has grown so much is indicator of how difficult it is to learn mod_perl. You'd have to read as much to write stuff in ISAPI or NSAPI. The fact is that most applications don't need an ISAPI or NSAPI filter, so the need to learn it is extremely low. This is why mod_perl will be niche unless the learning curve is much smaller. Yeah, it's as hard. But that's the point. If it is as hard then it will always be the realm of people who are good at Perl and now need/want to stretch their Perl skills. Most people that I interview who say they know Perl, are at the level that they know vaguely what use strict does and to use taintmode, but still they create pretty reasonable web apps. But the problem is that to extend them to a mod_perl Apache::Registry environment is a huge learning curve for people who are already very productive web app developers. Later, Gunther PS A little upbeat tidbit. Our ASP developers where I work are using Mail::Sender wrapped in ActiveState's COM wrapper API because they finally got sick of all the crap and problems with CDO. :)
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:15:53PM +0200, Stas Bekman wrote: Does anybody see a niche for a new web-hosting company specializing in mode_perl and other goodies, rather than the generic "package" ? Matt ? That could ease the management problem of "we agree mod_perl is great, but our hoster won't run it". I for one ended up having to host my own website because nobody would host mod_perl msql for less than an arm and a leg. Sure, Rod, there is a niche Build a rack of machines, give each client a dedicated box and have solved the problem of many people seeking mod_perl support. The question is how much this service is going to cost... Painful question. I guess the answer lies in how much responsibility the ISP is being asked to shoulder. I've thought about putting together a package of 1) Apache 2) mod_perl 3) mysql 4) reverse proxy cache 5) a slice of raid 6) automated remote backup 7) hardware update calendars... But you can't walk into Exodus without paying $750 for rackspace... Is this Rod's proverbial arm and a leg? Quite frankly, providing a service like this is a bit more interesting to me at the moment than actuall programming. If anyone is looking to partner up to make a service like this a reality, I'd certainly be interested in chatting. John
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Or even the head of a camel on an eagles body? I guess you could call it
an Eamel ;-)
my $.02
Bill
===
Bill Desjardinshttp://www.carracing.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: 305.205.8644
FREE Homepages for Racers and Race Tracks!!
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Rod Butcher wrote:
Um... how about a mythical beast with the head of an eagle and the body
of a camel ?
Rod
Baiju Thakkar wrote:
Well, someone mentioned an eagle. How about the eagle image for an
alternative mod_perl logo? I was thinking about hedgehog as one that
protected from everything, exactly like mod_perl...
Well mod_perl as a project has gotten the permission to
use the camel right ? I suggest we keep the camel.
Maybe give him lots of muscle with the apache feather
in there somewhere. There must be someone with some
graphic design experience lurking around here. :)
---
Baiju Thakkar
http://www.perlmonth.comhttp://www.linuxmonth.com
Just use Perl; Still thinking :)
--
Rod Butcher | "... I gaze at the beauty of the world,
Hyena Holdings Internet | its wonders and its miracles and out of
Programming | sheer joy I laugh even as the day laughs.
("it's us or the vultures") | And then the people of the jungle say,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 'It is but the laughter of a hyena'".
|Kahlil Gibran.. The Wanderer
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
John White wrote: On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:15:53PM +0200, Stas Bekman wrote: Does anybody see a niche for a new web-hosting company specializing in mode_perl and other goodies, rather than the generic "package" ? Matt ? That could ease the management problem of "we agree mod_perl is great, but our hoster won't run it". I for one ended up having to host my own website because nobody would host mod_perl msql for less than an arm and a leg. Sure, Rod, there is a niche Build a rack of machines, give each client a dedicated box and have solved the problem of many people seeking mod_perl support. The question is how much this service is going to cost... From my experience: Above.net, tier 1, guaranteed bandwidth 19X12 Rack = $400 monthly allows 128K (in 95%, billed for increase) 19X12 Rack fits 3 3U cases each case holds 2X500 PIII, Intel GX MB w/onboard video,100baseT and UW SCSI,256M,18Gig UW IBM, Approx = $2500 per machine Situation 1: shared three tier platform First CPU: lightweight front end has Mod_proxy, Mod_rewrite, Mod_ssl 2nd CPU: Mod_perl 3rd CPU runs mysql possibly DNS and Qmail also. Add in $200 Switch to segment 10 baseT Internet drop from 100baseT 'internal' frontend/modperl/database network. Also 4 port 100base T hub for $100. Sitution 2: Each client gets a dedicated machine combining each of the three seperate ones from above (expensive, only 3 clients per rack). Initial hardware outlay approx: 7500+200+100 = $7800 upfront + 400 monthly (min) Approximate traffic that can be served from this platform?? Additional monthly fees for traffic above 128K? 256K and 19X24 rackspace = $800 I think Painful question. I guess the answer lies in how much responsibility the ISP is being asked to shoulder. I've thought about putting together a package of 1) Apache 2) mod_perl 3) mysql 4) reverse proxy cache 5) a slice of raid 6) automated remote backup 7) hardware update calendars... But you can't walk into Exodus without paying $750 for rackspace... Is this Rod's proverbial arm and a leg? Quite frankly, providing a service like this is a bit more interesting to me at the moment than actuall programming. If anyone is looking to partner up to make a service like this a reality, I'd certainly be interested in chatting. John
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Gunther Birznieks wrote: You don't have to be top 15th percentile VB or top 15th percentile Java to write ASPs or Servlets respectively. Although for servlets, I would say top 50th at least if you don't want a completely crappy OO servlet architecture. I have organized a series of personnel trainings in a number of huge French companies, and I have been constantly trying to spread the mod_perl word and look at people's reaction. If I talk about mod_perl on Monday: A young computer genius (you know the kind of guy who will build his own company when he is 25) will return to the training on Tuesday with the Eagle book in his hands. A well-placed VB script programmer just won't care. He will get very nervous when I pronounce "Unix". A convinced Java programmer will desperately seek for equivalent functions for Enterprise Java Beans, CORBA, RMI, etc, then he will just shrug his shoulders. A decision maker will sleep until I say "performance". He will completely wake up when I bring up statistics from Stas' guide. Then he will ask me if I am willing to come back next week to give a profound training on mod_perl, and then he will never call me back. As I understand the companies' philosophy, mod-perl's advantages that we bring up here are actually DRAWBACKS for them, as compared to VB Script. They used to find immediate solutions for an immediate contract. When I ask a question to a Perl or Java developer, most of the time he can explain me the whole theory behind it. On the contrary, a VB developer always answers "I don't know, I have always done this way and it works". So, a company hiring VB developers knows that these are humble and obedient guys who will make the application work, even if an extra semicolon will ruin the whole program. And that is perfectly OK with such companies because they sell the product and the MAINTENANCE behind it (they call it "maintenance", but it actually means re-writing the whole program when the client only needs an extra semicolon). But a good Perl programmer is more often uncontrollable, he writes a perfect program, but no one else understands it, and if he quits the company tomorrow they won't find anyone else to do the "maintenance". So when I spread the mod_perl word, I make sure I don't make my client hire another bunch of VB programmers after what I told them about mod_perl during the training. :))) I also tried to take individual VB/PowerBuilder/etc. guys and teach Perl to them. Well, I can make them understand the technical side but not the BEAUTY of Perl. Maybe I am not a perfect trainer, but after such trainings I see these guys LITERALLY TRANSLATE their programs from VB to Perl. Just to make a resume, I am afraid Mod_Perl will remain an elite-oriented product. That is not really embarassing, because the education guidelines change too, and more and more guys switch to the elite layer, bringing up their own projects. So if this talk is about spreading mod_perl to the whole Internet programming community, wouldn't it be better to say, making mod_perl THE CHOICE of the BEST Internet projects? Vic.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Victor Zamouline wrote: [...] Right. This talk is about a commercial success. The /perl.apache.org/logos/mod_perl.gif logo represents a bridge between two products [...] But that is what it is. A very cool bridge indeed, but a bridge. - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - http://www.netcetera.dk/~ask/ more than 60M impressions per day, http://valueclick.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
I'd rather see a camel with wings. Seems like an eagle without wings isn't much of an eagle, and a camel without a hump isn't much of a camel. Just like mod_perl gives you all the power of Apache Perl together? Yeah, I'm reaching. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Desjardins) wrote: Or even the head of a camel on an eagles body? I guess you could call it an Eamel ;-) my $.02 Bill === Bill Desjardinshttp://www.carracing.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: 305.205.8644 FREE Homepages for Racers and Race Tracks!! On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Rod Butcher wrote: Um... how about a mythical beast with the head of an eagle and the body of a camel ? Rod ------ Ken Williams Last Bastion of Euclidity [EMAIL PROTECTED]The Math Forum
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
And Lincons roots?
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
We don't seem to have the same problem here in Blighty. I did a search for mod_perl at www.jobserve.com and six jobs posted in the last five days were returned. I'm sure things will improve after this Y2K thang passes over and companies start to look to new technologies. From: Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:37:58 +0200 (IST) Hi, folks You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you more about the client and the positions if you're interested. Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing (which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl, as when a project staff understands the power of mod_perl and want to use it but have no experience with mod_perl and can hire none of mod_perl programmers, there is no other choice left as to use some other probably worse technology because they could dig up the required man power that has the required knowledge in the other field. Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web? Ideas? ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Hello Everybody, I believe it is true. We could have more more mod_perl programmers. I think that the biggest problem/opportunity that mod_perl has in terms of proliferation amongst programmers/users is that Hosts currently do not provide mod_perl on cheap virtual server package. I think a whole lot of perl programmers and non perl programmers would move to mod_perl if the service was provided. Currently in The Guide it discusses 3 possibilities for Hosts. http://perl.apache.org/guide/multiuser.html#ISPs_providing_mod_perl_services Are there any other ways that we can suggest to hosts which are easier for all involved? I am not that experienced with mod_perl so I cannot propose a robust solution. But I do believe there must be one. Even a limited/special version or configuration of mod_perl would do. Why is just offering PerlRun, or something like it, not an option? I don't know PerlRun, but doesn't that clean things up a bit? The PHP people managed to get into the Virtual server space and I think it has been a great boost for the Hosts and the low budget Customers. But there are a lot of perl programmers and perl programs out there that could use the boost as well. And even programmers who have the resources, when they choose which language to use, sometimes have to consider that instances of their programs will be used by people without the resources to have mod_perl. A limited mod_perl that Hosts can use and advertise could help mod_perl and a whole lot of perl programmers to use Perl on the smaller, acorn-like, projects. It would also encourage new programmers to use perl as they toy on their first projects. In anycase, thanks for listening to my pep talk, and good morning! Stas Bekman wrote: Hi, folks You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you more about the client and the positions if you're interested. Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing (which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl, as when a project staff understands the power of mod_perl and want to use it but have no experience with mod_perl and can hire none of mod_perl programmers, there is no other choice left as to use some other probably worse technology because they could dig up the required man power that has the required knowledge in the other field. Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web? Ideas? ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: mod_perl is definitely going up, and not too slow either. Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing (which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl, as when a project staff understands the power of mod_perl and want to use it but have no experience with mod_perl and can hire none of mod_perl programmers, there is no other choice left as to use some other probably worse technology because they could dig up the required man power that has the required knowledge in the other field. When I posted a job offer on this list I got a lot of answers (which I hope will lead to something more concrete next week), contrary to my initial fears. I think the problem touches computer people as a whole. It is getting hard or impossible to find contractors that aren't booked for the next six months in some areas of knowledge. Granted it must be easier to find a Java programmer though. But I agree with you that we should try to seduce more programmers to mod_perl, it can only help. There are a lot of Perl programmers out there that could learn how to use it (at least basically) rather quickly, so I guess that advertising it better before the Perl community would be the first step to take. I think that having a better organized site would help. Despite the (too) long silence, Matt and I have been working on a draft for the new site's organisation. We're moving slowly because we both have a lot to do besides that, but I'm confident that a new site will be there (at least in alpha/beta for review) at some point in January. I just need to reword a few bits of the outline and I'll post it to the list for discussion (hopefully tomorrow). When we have the site we can write MAKE MONEY QUICK !!! MOD_PERL PROGRAMMERS NEEDED ACCROSS THE GALAXY in big letters accross the screen ;) Or maybe something more subtle... We could even do that now. Another thing that could help would be an article on perl.com. That would reach the Perl community. I'm sure that we can mail whoever's in charge of it and offer to write an article, and I see no reason why it'd be turned down. Now the hard part is the article itself... Volunteers ? .Robin Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web? Great sites using mod_perl may want to explicitely state being proud of it, with a kind of mod_perl logo. I will willingly decorate my mod_perl'ed site (www.jazzvalley.com) with a mod_perl stamp on every page. That takes a strong logo and... possibly a more artistic name for mod_perl? Vic.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
At 12:35 03/12/1999 +0100, Victor Zamouline wrote: Great sites using mod_perl may want to explicitely state being proud of it, with a kind of mod_perl logo. I will willingly decorate my mod_perl'ed site (www.jazzvalley.com) with a mod_perl stamp on every page. That's a good idea. We're to release four mod_perl sites between now and the end of the month. We'll put a Powered by mod_perl logo or something like that on all of them. The problem is to avoid the "homepage"-like style of covering the thing under tons of buttons no one cares about. That takes a strong logo and... possibly a more artistic name for mod_perl? There are a few logos on the site, and we can add some more (I don't know if we would manage to agree on one, though it'd give a stronger sense of "brand"). As for the name I quite like it, but maybe all this time spent working on it and loving it has perverted my judgement :) The problem I see with changing the name is that there is already stuff out there that carries the name. The Eagle book doesn't have it on it's cover though, so it might be possible if anyone's got some good suggestion. A tagline could be a nice idea too. .Robin James Joyce -- an essentially private man who wished his total indifference to public notice to be universally recognized. -- Tom Stoppard
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
-Message d'origine- De : Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are a few logos on the site, and we can add some more (I don't know if we would manage to agree on one, though it'd give a stronger sense of "brand"). Right. This talk is about a commercial success. The /perl.apache.org/logos/mod_perl.gif logo represents a bridge between two products (makes one think of a gadget!), not really a product. I remember my first interest to Java associated with the coffee cup, or my first interest to Perl associated with the camel, or even Apache's feather. The problem I see with changing the name is that there is already stuff out there that carries the name. Well, there have been precedents in history when a product found a new name the day it wanted to tell the world about its existence. Look at how many names java had gone through. Also, looks like most software products now tend to take an existing notion from life, use the word for the name and the image for the logo... sort of marketing. :))) Vic.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Hi there, On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Stas Bekman wrote: You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. I believe it. Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing (which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl, Speaking as a supplier, when demand is high and supply is scarce... I LIKE it!!! 73 Ged.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
"Robin" == Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Robin Another thing that could help would be an article on Robin perl.com. That would reach the Perl community. I'm sure that we Robin can mail whoever's in charge of it and offer to write an Robin article, and I see no reason why it'd be turned down. Now the Robin hard part is the article itself... Volunteers ? The easy part about perl.com is to remember that perl.org is easier. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
"Stas" == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stas Hi, folks Stas You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Stas Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: Stas At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I Stas thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you Stas more about the client and the positions if you're interested. Maybe what we need is some open enrollment courses, perhaps even web-based courses, and in the longer run, some good tutorial books to go along with the Eagle book. Of course, that's what I *always* think about any shortage, which is why Stonehenge makes money. :) The other thing I always think is "Hey, maybe I should quit what I'm doing and go full time into mod_perl hacking." The problem is that this doesn't scale. :) Another thing, and I've got to repeat this so sorry if you've already heard it: GET THIS KIND OF STUFF TO "brian d foy" SO HE CAN STICK IT ON THE PERLMONGERS ADVOCACY PAGES. The press is being pointed repeatedly to perl.org. If we can get more mod_perl stuff and links there "for the press" and "for IT managers" and "support", people will start noticing it, and start treating it as *real*. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
"Victor" == Victor Zamouline [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Victor Great sites using mod_perl may want to explicitely state being
Victor proud of it, with a kind of mod_perl logo. I will willingly
Victor decorate my mod_perl'ed site (www.jazzvalley.com) with a
Victor mod_perl stamp on every page.
I've been doing that in a different, but less useful way:
package Stonehenge::MyFixup;
## PerlFixupHandler Stonehenge::MyFixup
use strict;
use Apache::Constants qw(DECLINED);
sub handler {
my $r = shift;
if (not $r-proxyreq and $r-is_main) {
$r-header_out(X_mod_perl_rules =
"mod_perl rules! Get it at http://perl.apache.org/");
}
return DECLINED;
}
1;
and the evidence:
$ GET -de www.stonehenge.com
Connection: close
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:43:58 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.9 (Unix) mod_perl/1.21
Content-Type: text/html
Client-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:43:58 GMT
Client-Peer: 209.102.105.69:80
Title: Welcome to Stonehenge!
X-Meta-Description: The Home Page of Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc.
X-Meta-Keywords: Perl, Perl training, Perl consulting, Unix, Unix consulting
X-Mod-Perl-Rules: mod_perl rules! Get it at http://perl.apache.org/
:-)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
[EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Maybe what we need is some open enrollment courses I can organize that in France, I am in direct communication with all French computer training companies. Vic.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
"Stas" == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stas Hi, folks Stas You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Stas Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: Stas At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I Stas thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you Stas more about the client and the positions if you're interested. Maybe what we need is some open enrollment courses, perhaps even web-based courses, and in the longer run, some good tutorial books to go along with the Eagle book. We are thinking about providing courses, so far the conferences were the only place the tutorials were given. At the upcoming apacheCon 2000 it seems that I would be the only person talking about mod_perl :( But this time I would do it for 7 hours :) Regarding the tutorial books, Eric and me are working on such a book :) Of course, that's what I *always* think about any shortage, which is why Stonehenge makes money. :) The other thing I always think is "Hey, maybe I should quit what I'm doing and go full time into mod_perl hacking." The problem is that this doesn't scale. :) That's can be changed, the question is how many people wish to contribute and make the mod_perl the technology of choice. There are too few articles about mod_perl. I do write for perlmonth.com, and there are articles about mod_perl in TPJ. You write about mod_perl in your wonderful WebTechniques columns. But there are so many other online magazines, I wish more folks would write articles and make a better name for mod_perl. Another thing, and I've got to repeat this so sorry if you've already heard it: GET THIS KIND OF STUFF TO "brian d foy" SO HE CAN STICK IT ON THE PERLMONGERS ADVOCACY PAGES. The press is being pointed repeatedly to perl.org. If we can get more mod_perl stuff and links there "for the press" and "for IT managers" and "support", people will start noticing it, and start treating it as *real*. Good idea, I'll talk to them. May be TomC would put something on the www.perl.com too... In the market place section :) ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
I am new to Mod_Perl. I don't know what all it's good for. My question is, what do they mean by "mod_perl experience". I can compile Apache with mod_perl and make emb_perl work correctly but I highly doubt that is all they are after. Being new to this, I'd like some perspective from those more experienced. I am trying to enter this field as a EmbPerl-DBI programmer. Thus far, I haven't gotten into HTML too much as far as creating my own goes. I have a large learning curve to climb here because Perl is new to me. How far into mod_perl should I go? I.e. what does it look like if you have "experience with mod_perl"? What all can you do with it? Please forgive and be kind if this sound very naieve. I am looking for perspective and education, not flames for stupidity! :-) On 3 Dec 99, at 11:37, Stas Bekman wrote: Hi, folks You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you more about the client and the positions if you're interested. Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing (which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl, as when a project staff understands the power of mod_perl and want to use it but have no experience with mod_perl and can hire none of mod_perl programmers, there is no other choice left as to use some other probably worse technology because they could dig up the required man power that has the required knowledge in the other field. Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web? Ideas? ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com -- Scott Chapman Technical Support Specialist Lund Performance Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 541-926-3800 www.lund.com
RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
I can describe what I mean when I say "mod_perl experience". I think that to most it means this as well. mod_perl experience is just a nifty word to aid in the finding of someone who has the style of perl which fits the requirements of mod_perl. The ability to keep everything within scope; ability to write modular code; an overall c programming style to perl. Whether or not you've actually written anything for to be run under a mod_perl apache doesn't really mean much. If someone familiar with programming for mod_perl were to look at your code, it would be fairly easy for me to see if you had the ability to be a mod_perl developer. In fact... if anyone is interested in a job using mod_perl... I need 3 people by the end of this month. a little background on the company, project and group. Company: location: Kansas city, mo company: financial institution assets: 7+ billion culture: suits (overall bank culture) Group: Internet services culture: laid back, open environment, no real dress code, flexible time, smart people Project: business to business e-commerce site hardware: Sun Cluster software: apache 1.3.9/stronghold/mod_perl 1.2.1 (Solaris 2.6) CVS Oracle 8i The money is very good for the region... email me if you're interested -Original Message- From: Scott Chapman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:35 AM To: mod_perl list Subject: Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up... I am new to Mod_Perl. I don't know what all it's good for. My question is, what do they mean by "mod_perl experience". I can compile Apache with mod_perl and make emb_perl work correctly but I highly doubt that is all they are after. Being new to this, I'd like some perspective from those more experienced.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
We've never had any candidates come in with any level of depth with mod_perl but I'd vet their competency with it by asking them to explain the closure problem with variables my'd under Apache::Registry. Anyone cognizant of those issues should presumably know how to sanely use Registry scripts but also understand my distaste for them. The API itself can be easily learned, so I don't care if people have written their own handlers. BTW, we're hiring :) In downtown San Francisco, we publish salon.com and we're looking for mod_perl proficiency (now that you know what that means ;), competence with XML::Parser XML::Grove, DBI/Oracle/MySQL, LWP, objects under Perl and in general someone who knows when to exploit the CPAN and when to build. Also java servlet jdbc API's (no comments from the peanut gallery, OK?) familiarity. Must think HTML::Mason is way cool! If this is you, I want to see your resume! -Ian Today, Eric Cholet [EMAIL PROTECTED] frothed and gesticulated about...: Randal L. Schwartz wrote: For some people, I presume dealing only with content handlers could be considered as "mod_perl experience". But mod_perl is so much more than the content phase. I would laugh at someone that said they "knew mod_perl", but couldn't tell me most of what's in Stas' document, for example, or had never written a PerlTransHandler or a PerlLogHandler. Or worse yet, had only used Apache::Registry! aside - Doug did too good of a job with Apache::Registry. So many people think that this is all mod_perl is and forget that Apache::Registry is just a stopgap while you are writing *real* handlers. Many people make the distinction between Apache::Registry being for mod_cgi compatible scripts, and "real" handlers taking full power of the Apache API. The truth is that an Apache::Registry script can also use the Apache API and completely disregard CGI compatibility. When I write a new application, I often write content handlers as registry scripts, because of the ease of use (no need to restart the server when changed), then it's easy to wrap a "sub handler" around the script to turn into a "real" handler. -- Eric -- Salon Internet http://www.salon.com/ HTTP mechanic, Perl diver, Mebwaster, Some of the above Ian Kallen [EMAIL PROTECTED] / AIM: iankallen / Fax: (415) 354-3326
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On 03-Dec-99 Robin Berjon wrote: I think the problem touches computer people as a whole. It is getting hard or impossible to find contractors that aren't booked for the next six months in some areas of knowledge. Granted it must be easier to find a Java programmer though. Unfortunately, another big part of the problem is that many so-called 'forward thinking' companies aren't willing to hire tele-commuters, even for contract positions. I'm interested in doing some moonlight consultant work but there isn't alot of mod_perl activity going on in Austin, Texas. --- Jason Bodnar + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Tivoli Systems I swear I'd forget my own head if it wasn't up my ass. -- Jason Bodnar
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
"Ian" == Ian Kallen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ian We've never had any candidates come in with any level of depth with Ian mod_perl but I'd vet their competency with it by asking them to explain Ian the closure problem with variables my'd under Apache::Registry. Anyone Ian cognizant of those issues should presumably know how to sanely use Ian Registry scripts but also understand my distaste for them. The API itself Ian can be easily learned, so I don't care if people have written their own Ian handlers. Very good point. I think that's my point as well. If people say "I know mod_perl" but have never typed "$r-...", I'm gonna be suspicious. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On 03-Dec-99 Robin Berjon wrote: At 12:35 03/12/1999 +0100, Victor Zamouline wrote: Great sites using mod_perl may want to explicitely state being proud of it, with a kind of mod_perl logo. I will willingly decorate my mod_perl'ed site (www.jazzvalley.com) with a mod_perl stamp on every page. That's a good idea. We're to release four mod_perl sites between now and the end of the month. We'll put a Powered by mod_perl logo or something like that on all of them. The problem is to avoid the "homepage"-like style of covering the thing under tons of buttons no one cares about. For commercial sites, probably the best thing to do is have an about page that you can cover in 'Powered by' buttons. --- Jason Bodnar + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Tivoli Systems In Jail Rock house Rock, he was everything Rockabilly's about. No, I mean he is Rockabilly. Mean, Surly, Nasty, Brute. I mean in that movie he couldn't give a about nothin'. Just rockin' and rollin', livin' fast, dying young, leavin' a good lookin' corpse. --Clarence Worley, True Romance
RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Jason Bodnar wrote: Unfortunately, another big part of the problem is that many so-called 'forward thinking' companies aren't willing to hire tele-commuters, even for contract positions. I'm interested in doing some moonlight consultant work but there isn't alot of mod_perl activity going on in Austin, Texas. Do other people agree with this? I'm going to be putting my resume out in a week possibly looking for a short term (few weeks to a month or so) consulting jig. How open will people be to having me consult on a tele-commuting basis? (Or I could commute to DC/Nortern-VA/MD.) And how much short-term contract work is there available? - David Harris Principal Engineer, DRH Internet Services
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
To my opinion, out of the responses to a definition of a "mod_perl experience", two are worth emphasizing: 1. Perl programming style with mod_perl techniques in mind 2. Abstraction from standard CGI constraints and high stakes on mod_perl's features unavailable in vanilla CGI There should be a definition, right? :))) Vic.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
1. Perl programming style with mod_perl techniques in mind 2. Abstraction from standard CGI constraints and high stakes on mod_perl's features unavailable in vanilla CGI What about "bipolar" Perl-web programming tactics, like Embperl? It can be as either CGI or mod_perl, and yet it is not Apache::Registry. So... is that mod_perl programming? Cheers, Richard - Richard Dice * Personal 514 816 9568 * Fax 514 816 9569 Open Source Evangelist, HBE Software * http://www.hbesoftware.com ShadNet Creator * http://shadnet.shad.ca/ * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Occasional Writer, HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/ "squeeze the world 'til it's small enough to join us heel to toe" - jesus jones
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Nice argument but there's a flaw in it :) Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a "skilled unix admin"? In fact (this is off topic but I'm desperate), if there is someone in the Seattle area that's looking, there is an immediate opening... --Jauder On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Richard Dice wrote: Jeffrey: There can be no such thing as a shortage of mod_perl programmers. When someone says that they can't find mod_perl people, what they really mean is that they can't find mod_perl people for the price they are willing to pay. Well said! The term for this is "market clearing price", and it certainly applies in this situation. There are certain very limited situations where there truly can be a "shortage", but it only lasts for a limited amount of time -- the time it takes for a "new generation" of people to train themselves for the task. Perhaps 12-18 months? (i.e. Take all people who are skilled unix sysadmins and programmers, with a decent amount of Perl experience as well, and tell them that they can earn a zillion dollars an hour if only they can become mod_perl experts. They all take the year off from work as an investment, become those experts... and suddenly find that, because everyone did this, they can only make some fraction of a zillion an hour. Ah, market economics. :-) ) I agree with your conclusion, too, that more and better documentation is the most effective way to increase the supply of skilled mod_perl people. Cheers, Richard - Richard Dice * Personal 514 816 9568 * Fax 514 816 9569 Open Source Evangelist, HBE Software * http://www.hbesoftware.com ShadNet Creator * http://shadnet.shad.ca/ * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Occasional Writer, HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/ "squeeze the world 'til it's small enough to join us heel to toe" - jesus jones
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Robin Berjon wrote: That takes a strong logo and... possibly a more artistic name for mod_perl? The Eagle book doesn't have it on it's cover though, Well, actually, it does... on the first line, but who cares? so it might be possible if anyone's got some good suggestion How about ``Eagle''? 73 Ged.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Jeffrey Baker wrote: Most people are lazy. Since it is easier to get started with VB/ASP/Crapomatic-9000, most people are going to start there. The people with real initiative and drive will always find their way over to mod_perl or other advanced solutions. The only way to make more people use mod_perl is to make mod_perl easier for the lazy people. I think dougm's book and your upcoming book will do a lot to make mod_perl more accessible. i definitely agree that most people are lazy. (some even refuse to use capital letters! :-) my first experience programming for desktop or web came from redmondware, but i was convinced that wasn't the best way to program. a friend told me about linux and perl, and i was on my way. it's been a difficult row to hoe at times, which is why i left my m$ past to find a unix shop w/guys to help me learn. making the transition from CGI to mod_perl was a conceptual leap for me that took several weeks to digest, but less time than it took for me to go from vb/pascal to perl, and less time for me to learn basic system tasks in moving from windows to *nix. after a great deal of effort expended learning how to do everything in the unix/perl/apache/mod_perl world -- everything from compiling my own kernels and packages to using $r -- i would agree that creating paths to learning that are well illuminated and logical in structure is a Good Thing(tm). as long as we never think that the way to increase the popularity of *nix-based tools is to dumb them down. if people are capable and will to learn perl and apache and such, they will. if they're not, they won't. i hope that doesn't come off as elitist, but i feel there's something to be said for paying your dues. if you want a gourmet meal, you're going to have to learn to cook it yourself (w/a substantial time investment) or you're going to have to go to a good restaurant (and probably pay a good bit for it). same with finding mod_perlers: you're either going to have to put in the time to grasp the concepts or you're going to have to pay a mod_perl/cordon-blue-trained-chef-of-web-development to write the stuff for you. either way, you tend to get a good product that won't give you literal or figurative heartburn, IMHO. ky
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web? Great sites using mod_perl may want to explicitely state being proud of it, with a kind of mod_perl logo. I will willingly decorate my mod_perl'ed site (www.jazzvalley.com) with a mod_perl stamp on every page. That takes a strong logo and... possibly a more artistic name for mod_perl? Interesting, I'm talking all the time about mod_perl promotion, but myself don't use the mod_perl logo on mod_perl driven pages. Shame on me. Which makes me thinking to write in a big letters "Please use our logo on the pages created by mod_perl" at the perl.apache.org site! Regarding the logo itself, I guess that discussions don't work here as we all observed it more than once. If you think like you want to offer a new or an alternative logo to use, create it, show it and make sure it would be used. Talking about "let's do something" topics on the mod_perl list is a waste of time, unfortunately... The motto of this list regarding new things is "think it, implement it and give it"... ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Does anybody see a niche for a new web-hosting company specializing in
mode_perl and other goodies, rather than the generic "package" ? Matt ?
That could ease the management problem of "we agree mod_perl is great,
but our hoster won't run it".
I for one ended up having to host my own website because nobody would
host mod_perl msql for less than an arm and a leg.
Sure, Rod, there is a niche
Build a rack of machines, give each client a dedicated box and have solved
the problem of many people seeking mod_perl support. The question is how
much this service is going to cost...
Rod
Gidon Wise wrote:
Hello Everybody,
I believe it is true. We could have more more mod_perl programmers.
I think that the biggest problem/opportunity that mod_perl has in terms
of proliferation amongst programmers/users is that Hosts currently
do not provide mod_perl on cheap virtual server package.
I think a whole lot of perl programmers and non perl programmers
would move to mod_perl if the service was provided.
Currently in The Guide it discusses 3 possibilities for Hosts.
http://perl.apache.org/guide/multiuser.html#ISPs_providing_mod_perl_services
Are there any other ways that we can suggest to hosts
which are easier for all involved? I am not that experienced with mod_perl
so I cannot propose a robust solution. But I do believe there must be one.
Even a limited/special version or configuration of mod_perl would do.
Why is just offering PerlRun, or something like it, not an option?
I don't know PerlRun, but doesn't that clean things up a bit?
The PHP people managed to get into the Virtual server space
and I think it has been a great boost for the Hosts and the low
budget Customers. But there are a lot of perl programmers and
perl programs out there that could use the boost as well. And even
programmers who have the resources, when they choose which language
to use, sometimes have to consider that instances of their programs
will be used by people without the resources to have mod_perl.
A limited mod_perl that Hosts can use and advertise
could help mod_perl and a whole lot of perl programmers
to use Perl on the smaller, acorn-like, projects.
It would also encourage new programmers to use perl
as they toy on their first projects.
In anycase, thanks for listening to my pep talk, and good morning!
Stas Bekman wrote:
Hi, folks
You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers.
Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer:
At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I
thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you
more about the client and the positions if you're interested.
Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing
(which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl,
as when a project staff understands the power of mod_perl and want to use
it but have no experience with mod_perl and can hire none of mod_perl
programmers, there is no other choice left as to use some other probably
worse technology because they could dig up the required man power that has
the required knowledge in the other field.
Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we
make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers
and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice
like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web?
Ideas?
___
Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas
Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC
www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org
single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
--
Rod Butcher | "... I gaze at the beauty of the world,
Hyena Holdings Internet | its wonders and its miracles and out of
Programming | sheer joy I laugh even as the day laughs.
("it's us or the vultures") | And then the people of the jungle say,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 'It is but the laughter of a hyena'".
|Kahlil Gibran.. The Wanderer
___
Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas
Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC
www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org
single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
RE: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Well, someone mentioned an eagle. How about the eagle image for an alternative mod_perl logo? I was thinking about hedgehog as one that protected from everything, exactly like mod_perl... Well mod_perl as a project has gotten the permission to use the camel right ? I suggest we keep the camel. Maybe give him lots of muscle with the apache feather in there somewhere. There must be someone with some graphic design experience lurking around here. :) --- Baiju Thakkar http://www.perlmonth.comhttp://www.linuxmonth.com Just use Perl; Still thinking :)
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On 3 Dec 1999, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: "Scott" == Scott Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Scott I am new to Mod_Perl. I don't know what all it's good for. My Scott question is, what do they mean by "mod_perl experience". I can Scott compile Apache with mod_perl and make emb_perl work correctly Scott but I highly doubt that is all they are after. Being new to Scott this, I'd like some perspective from those more experienced. I Scott am trying to enter this field as a EmbPerl-DBI programmer. Scott Thus far, I haven't gotten into HTML too much as far as Scott creating my own goes. I have a large learning curve to climb Scott here because Perl is new to me. How far into mod_perl should I Scott go? I.e. what does it look like if you have "experience with Scott mod_perl"? What all can you do with it? For some people, I presume dealing only with content handlers could be considered as "mod_perl experience". But mod_perl is so much more than the content phase. I would laugh at someone that said they "knew mod_perl", but couldn't tell me most of what's in Stas' document, for example, or had never written a PerlTransHandler or a PerlLogHandler. Or worse yet, had only used Apache::Registry! aside - Doug did too good of a job with Apache::Registry. So many people think that this is all mod_perl is and forget that Apache::Registry is just a stopgap while you are writing *real* handlers. I slightly disagree with you. An "experienced mod_perl" person is one that knows how to install and maintain mod_perl server, write code with mod_perl in mind (code persistance) and perferrably with a knowledge of performance and memory (shared) issues that are very critical for mod_perl. Of course there are many more. But don't forget that first of all mod_perl enables services run much much faster, and you achieve that with Registry scripts and as Eric correctly pointed out you can write Registry scripts in Apache-Perl API. For an average service a Registry power is the crucial and the most important one. This is correct that mod_perl isn't not Registry, and it has much more power, but you learn it later. The newbie shouldn't be intimidated by a new API. Let them use their old perl scripts, make them enjoy the speed and then tell them, hey there is more things that you might want to know. The biggest thing I love about mod_perl is that it's like Perl - you can get things working in zero time and with a very little effort, and then learn and deploy more sophisticated techniques and do more sophisticated hacks. ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Stas Bekman wrote: Hi, folks You wouldn't beleive but I receive a great deal of mod_perl job offers. Here is a partial quote of the most generic content of the offer: At any rate, we're finding it very hard to find mod_perl people and I thought maybe you could refer me to someone you know. I can tell you more about the client and the positions if you're interested. Which makes me thinking that we are too few and the demand is growing (which is good for us :), but from the other side it's bad for mod_perl, as when a project staff understands the power of mod_perl and want to use it but have no experience with mod_perl and can hire none of mod_perl programmers, there is no other choice left as to use some other probably worse technology because they could dig up the required man power that has the required knowledge in the other field. Stas, ever since you made that remark at the O'Reilly Conference, wishing that there was no such thing as money, I have known that you and I are of the same opinion regarding economics. Sadly, we seem to be stuck in this money-driven system for at least a little while more. Yes, untill we go IPO :) which seems to be a good way to escape from the monetary jail... Do anyone is going IPO any time soon? I want to join you :) We should add a checkbox to the jobs.html page saying: IPO o before o after There can be no such thing as a shortage of mod_perl programmers. When someone says that they can't find mod_perl people, what they really mean is that they can't find mod_perl people for the price they are willing to pay. We are expensive, you see. Frequently the prospective employer of a mod_perl person will decide that they simply cannot afford to go the mod_perl route. They instead use a different solution whose cost is lower. The second system isn't neccessarily inferior, it is simply the best system the client could afford. In light of the above, there is nothing you can do to relieve a shortage that doesn't exist. What you can do is lower the price of mod_perl skills by making them more widespread. This will allow more people to use mod_perl, and I think all of the people on this list would approve of that. I personally approve of anything which helps the worldwide flow of information. Now unfortunately a lot of people don't share our views on money. They want to maximize the monetary value of their mod_perl knowledge, which is all well and good as far as I care. The problem for these folks is that the more widespread basic mod_perl skills become, the harder it will be to charge extortionary prices for performing the simplest mod_perl tricks. In effect the price that mod_perl programmers can demand will become stratified: those with the most skills will still be very highly valued, but those with modest skills will see their wages decline. Wow, I didn't think about this. A very interesting logic you are presenting here... I loved it! I want to be one of the rare species and to get paid a lot :) Now the question is: if this is truth and you feel the same way, how do we make the world know that there is a great demand for mod_perl programmers and that people should learn mod_perl and not the stright-forward choice like VB, ASP or other technology that drives the web? Most people are lazy. Since it is easier to get started with VB/ASP/Crapomatic-9000, most people are going to start there. The people with real initiative and drive will always find their way over to mod_perl or other advanced solutions. The only way to make more people use mod_perl is to make mod_perl easier for the lazy people. I think dougm's book and your upcoming book will do a lot to make mod_perl more accessible. Yup, that's what we should try to do... to lower the entry level. BTW, I'm not writing the book alone anymore, I'm delighted to coauthor the book with Eric Cholet! Yippee!!! ___ Stas Bekman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.singlesheaven.com/stas Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC at www.singlesheaven.com/stas/TULARC www.apache.org www.perl.com == www.modperl.com || perl.apache.org single o- + single o-+ = singlesheavenhttp://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Can you wonder why a large corporation would rather go with ASP for most web apps as long as it gets the job done and it's pain threshhold is not too high. Same with reasons for going with NT as a File Server or WEb Server. Sure it sucks for sophisicated stuff ,but 90% of places don't really need sophisticated stuff. They need cheap and easy to find programming help to whip custom shit out. With some emphasis on cheap. That's an excellent point: If you need cheap shit, ASP is the tool for you! [Sorry... I couldn't resist... ;-) ] But honestly, sure, there's a place for ASP (and NT as a web/file/print/ etc. server), and it's exactly where you describe. Most places just need something to kind of work, most of the time, in a fashion that's easy enough to let your summer intern take care of. (Or your MSCE -- same diff. ;-) Sorry... I couldn't resist again.) But there is also a place for technologies that actually do the _right_ job _exactly_. The problems come up in two places: * when you think you only need 80% of the job done and you go with NT, and then you find out that your ass is in a sling if you can't get the other 19% figured out, and soon! * when you try to go with the 99% solution, but find you're not up to the task, not up to hiring the people who are, don't provide the time to train and learn in order to treat the technology appropriately, etc. Everyone's walking a fine line in so many regards... we all just try to do our best. Cheers, Richard - Richard Dice * Personal 514 816 9568 * Fax 514 816 9569 Open Source Evangelist, HBE Software * http://www.hbesoftware.com ShadNet Creator * http://shadnet.shad.ca/ * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Occasional Writer, HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/ "squeeze the world 'til it's small enough to join us heel to toe" - jesus jones
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Baiju Thakkar wrote: Well, someone mentioned an eagle. How about the eagle image for an alternative mod_perl logo? I was thinking about hedgehog as one that protected from everything, exactly like mod_perl... Well mod_perl as a project has gotten the permission to use the camel right ? I suggest we keep the camel. Maybe give him lots of muscle with the apache feather in there somewhere. There must be someone with some graphic design experience lurking around here. :) ...what about the red brick base of a building, with mod_perl inscribed on a brass plaque? Suggestions of sturdiness, of foundation, and "for-all-seasons" come to mind. Since the logo might show the intersection of building and ground, one version could have tufts of grass, the other snow. It could adapted, much in the way the Linux penguin is adapted and co-opted banners and such. John Burns, Perl rookie at present
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Stas Bekman wrote: Now unfortunately a lot of people don't share our views on money. They want to maximize the monetary value of their mod_perl knowledge, which is all well and good as far as I care. The problem for these folks is that the more widespread basic mod_perl skills become, the harder it will be to charge extortionary prices for performing the simplest mod_perl tricks. In effect the price that mod_perl programmers can demand will become stratified: those with the most skills will still be very highly valued, but those with modest skills will see their wages decline. Wow, I didn't think about this. A very interesting logic you are presenting here... I loved it! I want to be one of the rare species and to get paid a lot :) We will all be rare species. But whether we get paid a lot is another matter. I think mod_perl is sufficiently hard that even as more people learn how to do the simple stuff, mod_perl will still be 'difficult' enough. I don't think it is like Java or Perl where the stratification is there in the language knowledge. Unless mod_perl itself gets easier, I don't see it beinglike ASP or JSP or Servlets (being a new technology people will eventually learn). I don't think it is about training either. It's a matter of making mod_perl easier. It just really is not easy. I bet there are a ton of people who find it hard to produce things in mod_perl andthen it's hard (and poentially mre expensive) for an ISP to generically support mod_perl (especially in a shared environment). etc... MiniGuide == ManyPagesGuide now. The fact is that the knowledge is there. But it really does require a guide that is that large to really know how to do good mod_perl code and exploit its advantages. And even then... Anyway, I'm off to write "Mod_perl in 21 days". Just kidding! (Although then you would be assured that Mod_perl is mainstream when you see that book!). Later, Gunther
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On 03-Dec-99 Gunther Birznieks wrote: I think mod_perl is sufficiently hard that even as more people learn how to do the simple stuff, mod_perl will still be 'difficult' enough. I don't think it is like Java or Perl where the stratification is there in the language knowledge. Unless mod_perl itself gets easier, I don't see it beinglike ASP or JSP or Servlets (being a new technology people will eventually learn). I don't see how people can say mod_perl is "hard". It's the Apache API in perl (with some niceties). If you know perl, you learn the API and that's that. It's no different than learning an API for some other product. Well, it really helps to understand the response process of Apache. You really can't compare mod_perl to ASP or JSP, though, IMHO. Compare those two technologies to Embperl or ePerl or Apache::ASP. I don't think it is about training either. It's a matter of making mod_perl easier. It just really is not easy. How are you going to make it easier? Create a GUI RAD IDE (gotta get in the buzzwords) for creating handlers? One of the things I love about mod_perl is that there are enough modules out there to do what you want most of the time without writing your own. I bet there are a ton of people who find it hard to produce things in mod_perl andthen it's hard (and poentially mre expensive) for an ISP to generically support mod_perl (especially in a shared environment). etc... The problem with an ISP supporting mod_perl is the fact that you're giving so much power to your clients. It's very easy to bring down an entire physical server by writing a bad handler (or even a bad embperl page). MiniGuide == ManyPagesGuide now. The fact is that the knowledge is there. But it really does require a guide that is that large to really know how to do good mod_perl code and exploit its advantages. And even then... I don't think the fact that the mini-guide has grown so much is indicator of how difficult it is to learn mod_perl. You'd have to read as much to write stuff in ISAPI or NSAPI. Anyway, I'm off to write "Mod_perl in 21 days". Please, do! I know alot of people feel that O'Reilly books are the only "true" books about Unix and OpenSource technology but as more mod_perl books start popping up there will be more in the stores to catch the eye of the next guy who decides he wants to move beyond cgi or learn a new technology and maybe he'll pick up the mod_perl book instead of the ASP book ISAPI book. Just kidding! (Although then you would be assured that Mod_perl is mainstream when you see that book!). Later, Gunther --- Jason Bodnar + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Tivoli Systems That boy wouldn't know the difference between the Internet and a hair net. -- Jason Bodnar
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
"G.W. Haywood" wrote: On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Robin Berjon wrote: That takes a strong logo and... possibly a more artistic name for mod_perl? The Eagle book doesn't have it on it's cover though, Well, actually, it does... on the first line, but who cares? so it might be possible if anyone's got some good suggestion How about ``Eagle''? 73 Ged. Exactly what I was just thinking. Apache Stronghold Apache Eagle Logo? Eagle floating over the feather? Or, the feather floating under the Eagle. An Eagle Feather. *Slute* M. Dearman
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:38:35PM -0700, Michael Dearman wrote: "G.W. Haywood" wrote: How about ``Eagle''? Exactly what I was just thinking. Apache Stronghold Apache Eagle Um, isn't that animal taken by O'Rielly? How about an oyster? Perhaps not as american-patriotic but just think how sexy it sounds. Randy Logo? Eagle floating over the feather? Or, the feather floating under the Eagle. An Eagle Feather.
Re: mod_perl Programmers demand is going up...
Randy Harmon wrote: Um, isn't that animal taken by O'Rielly? The O'Reilly Eagle is a Tawny Eagle. Thar be golden, spotted, bald, imperial, harpy ... well, plenty to go around. Still, it'd be nice to be able to use The Eagle. Logo promotes the book. To honor the first tome of mod_perl. Book promotes logo. How about an oyster? Perhaps not as american-patriotic but just think how sexy it sounds. Well Oysters promote? *wave* M. Dearman
