Re: [Mpls] Political Parties. (Was Booker Hodges Don Samuels)
Another person asked me the same question off list, and it had more or less the same tone, so let me apologize to Tim and to all of the DFL delegates who are offended that non-DFLers would want to hear from one of two candidates who have a good likelyhood of becoming the next Mayor. Many have made it clear that the DFL is no place for someone who wants to change the perfectly well run system of Minneapolis government or believes different views should be expressed. The Minneapolis DFL apparently is also no place for someone who simply wants to see how the largest political party in Minneapolis works, and maybe learn a thing or two. Some of you have certainly made it clear that it is no place for me. I apologize for daring to attend your convention. I see that I was wrong and I will make sure that I tell people that the Minneapolis DFL is not an open tent, regardless of whether or not you share certain views with some of the candidates. I will not attend another DFL convention and will urge my freinds to do the same. Fortunately for me, there is a sharp, confident Green Mayoral candidate in Farheen Hakim. I hope some good IP candidates also step forward. At least those parties get to hear from their council and park board candidates. Tamir Nolley Holland Ward of the Almighty President! Tim Bonham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. So why were you, Tamir, as a Green Partsian, attending a Convention intended for DFL Party members? Just wanted to see a Convention that was 4,900% bigger than the Green Party Convention? And why do you care how the other party runs its' Convention, anyway? - Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political Parties
--- "Jordan S. Kushner" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, i do not believe that the Liberal, Conservative, or Right-to-Life Parties in New York state have ever elected candidates on their own. (Does Mr. Black have any examples to disprove this contention?) I believe these "third parties" have only elected candidates due to fusion - when they nominate the same candidates as the Democrat or Republican Parties. Okay, this is way off the mpls issue dictate, but since Jordan askedin 1980 the Liberal Party of New York endorsed incumbent Senator Jacob Javits against Republican, Conservative and Right to Life party endorsed candidate Alphonse D'Amato and Democratic candidate Elizabeth Holtzman. Thanks to that split in the progressive/liberal voting block, D'Amato became a United States Senator and stayed in office for 18 years. Shows the effectiveness of third party movements doesn't it, bubby? Okay, back to Minneapolis stuff Loki Anderson Audubon Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] = "So quick bright things come to confusion." -Bill the Bard __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political Parties
In a message dated 3/31/01 2:21:48 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: bubby? Tom Taylor Sheridan Neighborhood ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political Parties
Thank you for acknowledging my 'rant.' In point of fact, in New York, the Conservative party elected Senator James Buckley (brother of William F. Buckley, Jr.), who defeated the incumbent Senator, Charles Goodell (Republican) and a Democrat, in 1970 (I think it was Liz Holtzman). As for the Liberals, John Lindsey was elected on the Liberal and Fusion lines to his second term as Mayor of NYC, defeating both a Republican and Democrat. Both of these parties have also elected on their own, state legislators and NYC City Council members from the 60's until today. You could look it up. As to the cockamamie system we have in Mpls., please do not blame the DFL for this. We were doing just fine until Tony Scallen did this on his own. It was adopted by the citizens of Minneapolis as well, as I recall, back in 1985. Since then, the DFL in Mpls. has had lots of internal trouble as, instead of Republicans, we face ourselves in the general election. It has led to the cult of personality now insidiously ruling the Council and city politics generally. By the way, the Green Party would be better off, too, if we had the old system, where at least each party was guaranteed a candidate in the general election. I am not paranoid about the Green Party. I simply believe that you cannot be both Green Party and DFL at the same time. We are competitors, not colleagues. As to the city government in Mpls in the last eight years, if that is the standard by which you are going to judge the 200-year history of the Democratic Party, that's not a very broad or random sample, is it? In the totality of the Democratic Party it HAS been the voice of workers, such as there has been one in this country; the voice of liberals (at least in the 20th century) and the party that believes in collective action. Certainly the Republicans don't and they brag about that. If we are going to judge only upon recent events, let me say that I find the arguments used by Mr. Nader and the Green Party in the past election reminiscent of the Trotskyites. I sensed a "let's make it worse before we make it better" mentality, a recklessness, a willing to play with history and a divisive attitude. Mr. Nader said (paraphrasing here) "If Al Gore can't beat this incompetent Texan, what good is he?" The point, however was that due to Mr. Nader and his Florida voters (and elsewhere), we are stuck with a government that looks like it will cruise full steam ahead to do some terrible things. While VP Gore is certainly responsible for his own campaign, I am sure that there would have been 1,000 Nader voters who would have otherwise voted for Gore. Anyway, I'll be looking forward to Mr. Kushner's next response. Bert Black King Field ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Political Parties
I'm not picking on Bert, honest, but he is new to our ways and our pitfalls. In isolation, his final paragraph about Gore-Nader does link from legitimate Minneapolis issues, but he does not know that refighting Gore-Nader quickly leaves our borders, takes over the forum, and decimates local topics like gypsy moths munching through a domestic forest. To all partisans: please resist the urge to re-fight the last presidential election. (The bulk of Bert's post is perfectly appropriate; the gypsy moth portion is left below for all members to steer clear of.) David Brauer List manager Not a dictator, just a nice guy sincerely trying to keep the list on-point (although this is probably what Stalin said to the Soviet people...) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 7:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mpls] Political Parties If we are going to judge only upon recent events, let me say that I find the arguments used by Mr. Nader and the Green Party in the past election reminiscent of the Trotskyites. I sensed a "let's make it worse before we make it better" mentality, a recklessness, a willing to play with history and a divisive attitude. Mr. Nader said (paraphrasing here) "If Al Gore can't beat this incompetent Texan, what good is he?" The point, however was that due to Mr. Nader and his Florida voters (and elsewhere), we are stuck with a government that looks like it will cruise full steam ahead to do some terrible things. While VP Gore is certainly responsible for his own campaign, I am sure that there would have been 1,000 Nader voters who would have otherwise voted for Gore. Bert Black King Field ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political parties
A little grist for the mill regarding this thread. from the State DFL Constitution: Article 1 Section 2. Membership. Membership in this party is open to all Minnesota residents who support the principles of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party of minnesota. No person may vote on any motion, resolution, nomination or election at any caucus, convention, meetings or conference of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party who is a member of any other political party.Dennis Hill St. Paul DFL'er Ward 2 - West 7th Street - Original Message - From:Many Crows Sent:Tuesday, March 27, 2001 10:18 PM To:Carol Becker Cc:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: [Mpls] Political parties All of this is all well and good, but it doesn't cut it in the realworld where peoplehave all sorts of faults and personal issues. The real constitutionwouldn't sound very pretty, talking about power struggles and clawingyour way to the top of your party and all the necessary tripe. So theymake it sound all rosy. Which is funny because they always accuse theGreen Party of being unrealistic.The Green Party, though closely associated with the left wing of thedfl, should assert it's autonomy.It must practice what it preaches. The key word is practice. I grew updfl, and while they are the ones with some weight, I am finding itharder and harder to accept how they throw that weight around.The core principles aren't just what we want, but how we want to achievethose goals, with dignity and respect.No other party can say that, they would be willing to do just aboutanything to achieve their ends.So as my Mother always said to me "Actions speak louder than words."Robert Yorgane w3___Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-DemocracyPost messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more:http://e-democracy.org/mpls Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [Mpls] Political parties
I 'm afraid that this last reply in the thread illustrates the problem. The Green Party is NOT affiliated with the left wing of the DFL. You are either a Green Party member or a DFLer. (see the text cited by Mr. Melendez) THE GREEN PARTY IS A SEPARATE PARTY IN COMPETITION WITH THE DFL. And yes, I meant to shout. The Green Party is not allied with, in coalition with , or anything else with the DFL. It is, as I understand it, running to win. That means to BEAT the DFL. I am originally from New York. In New York, there are lots of parties. The Liberal Party, the Conservative Party, the Right-to-Life Party (yes - amazingly enough!). They have all elected people and they are all in competition with each other to elect people on their own. Sometimes, they will nominate the same candidate, and the candidate can then cumulate her votes to her advantage. I think Hillary did this last year, for example. But they vote on their own lines and do not undermine each other internally. I am a liberal, but I am a DFLer first. In our cockamamie, Tony Scallon-created election system in Mpls. you list your political party or principle on the ballot, you are only listed once, and you cannot cumulate your votes from two different listings. I would like to know how a jointly endorsed candidate is listing or going to list themselves. Unless its as the DFL candidate, I don't want to waste my time listening to them for endorsement, because it doesn't advance the cause of my party. Let's put it in another light, the light of unions and representation. Only one union is the certified representative of a bargaining unit at any one time. So, if a unit is in AFSCME, a Teamster is not going to be representing it. What the Green Party (Teamsters) seems to want is to be able to come into a DFL (AFSCME) unit and operate alongside. It doesn't and can't work that way and still maintain a viable, independent DFL party. It's like having a parasitic worm in your intestine. Eventually, it will kill you. How would the Green Party like it if DFLers did the same to them, that is, came in and harassed the original Green Party members? I think they would cry foul. Well, so do I. Brits Out of Ireland, and Green Party out of the DFL! Perhaps some of you will read this and say, "well, the Union movement is bankrupt , too, so this is a perfect analogy." I disagree and am glad to be part of a union bargaining unit. But I also see that people want more direct democracy, without the intermediaries present in a representative democracy. That is why I have personally been working to make the DFL more like a direct democracy and far less of a representative democracy. But the entire point of a political party is to have collective strength on an ongoing basis. Otherwise, you have no organizing structure from which the direct democracy can flow. Unless, of course, you think these things can happen on an ad hoc basis. I do not. The Green Party is a major party in this state. It will have a role in Minneapolis redistricting because it met the standards in the Carter. It will be advancing it's own interests. It is a competitor of all other parties. To say that DFLers should be nice to them because Green issue positions are closer to those of the DFL than the DFL issue positions are to the other parties is besides the point, for me, at least. If parties want to affiliate and merge, there is a model. It is called the DFL and it is the product of a merger between the Farmer-Labor Party and the Democratic party. This happened in the forties after ten years of ineffective campaigns by both parties resulting in near-total political wipeout for both. Does the Green Party wish to so merge? I think not (and would be interested in hearing a reply). The Democratic Party is the oldest party in the world (that we know of). It has survived the birth and death of the Federalists, the Whigs, the Progressives, the Communists, and other parties. It is a serious center-left party intent on putting together under its own banner the numbers needed to govern in this very conservative nation. It occasionally wins and tries to govern. (You may not have liked Slick Willie, but just wait a year and see if you can stand W ). It is not content to be a spoiler or agitator party. Does this mean that it is less than 'pure?' You betcha. Is it perfect. No. But it is the best shot that ordinary working people have. It tries to speak, however imperfectly for the people. Either join us in the DFL or be separate. Don't 'affiliate.' Don't vacillate. Don't infiltrate. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political parties
I agree, the parties are distinct. I advocate that you are the competition. And sliding fast. The post about membership in the dfl is funny since on a national level the dlc doesn't support what the dfl or at least what the farmer labor movement was trying to accomplish in the forties.(imho) They should be members in some capitalist party, where money is the cause to advance. I can't speak for the greens, while I am closer to them in the political spectrum than anyone else, I am not a member. The problem with politics is the people, the politicians, and the process. The greens will most likely fall into the same habits as the other parties. What happens when the people have fundamental problems, internally? Can reform be anything but in word. Many people use the metaphor of rearranging deck chairs on theTitanic. This society is the Titanic. We believe we are unsinkable and unstoppable. We are a nation without limits, or humility. How long can we go on like this? While what I am speaking of tears at the envelope of not being a Mpls. issue,( try as I might, I slip, so please excuse me) it happens here in so many ways and we all know it. In a world where cultures are mixing more and more, what is true of the macrocosmos, is also true of the microcosmos. Robert Yorga, ne w3 Idealism is the moon we landed on thirty some years ago. ps This is what I said in the post, "The Green Party, though closely associated with the left wing of the dfl, should assert it's autonomy." Closely associated, is not a part of, in any way, shape, or form. I also said it should see itself as seperate. pps I love commas ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political parties
Please say more. What specific items in the DFL platform support the policies and actions (or lack of action) of the current mayor and council related to the Block E development, racially-based traffic stops, affordable housing, etc. Rosalind Nelson Bancroft At 06:40 AM 3/27/01 -0800, Carol Becker wrote: I think some of this discussion comes from a lack of agreement on this list of what a political party is and what its role is in our community. Here is the definition I would propose: a political party is a group of people who have a set of core beliefs (a political platform). The members (delegates) have a social contract with the larger community to spend the time examining these candidates and measuring them against these core beliefs. They then vote (an endorsing convention) on the candidate they believe will most closely uphold the core beliefs of the party. The party then endorses the candidate who most closely appears to hold these core beliefs. The party then helps to get this candidate elected so it can be sure its beliefs are represented. In Minneapolis, the DFL has done a pretty good job of selecting a set of core beliefs that match the core beliefs of the majority of citizens. I say this because history shows the DFL endorsement carries a lot of weight with voters. It isn't the only endorsement that carries weight - we have also debated the weight of the endorsement of Stonewall DFL, the Police and Fire unions, the Central Labor union, the DFL Feminist Caucus, and other groups. But for the majority of voters (in broad terms), feel they can trust the people who are the DFL to find candidates that adequately represent their views. (This is a general statement, however, because we all know of candidates who did not have the DFL endorsement who were elected.) ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Political parties
Hate to be icky picky on this notion, but do not the Constitutions of both the DFL Repub Partys spell out what they are, definitionally speaking. Perhaps, some long time keeper of party trivia might put up the respective clauses from the constitutions bylaws. I think some of this discussion comes from a lack of agreement on this list of what a political party is and what its role is in our community. Here is the definition I would propose: a political party is a group of people who John Ferman Harriet Avenue Kingfield Neighborhood Minneapolis Ward 10 Pct 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Political parties
-Original Message- From: ferma001 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 1:41 PM To: Mpls Issues Subject: Re: [Mpls] Political parties Hate to be icky picky on this notion, but do not the Constitutions of both the DFL Repub Partys spell out what they are, definitionally speaking. Perhaps, some long time keeper of party trivia might put up the respective clauses from the constitutions bylaws. Not nearly as much as you might expect. For example: From the Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States: "We, the Democrats of the United States of America, united in common purpose, hereby rededicate ourselves to the principles which have historically sustained our Party. Recognizing that the vitality of the Nation's political institutions has been the foundation of its enduring strength, we acknowledge that a political party which wishes to lead must listen to those it would lead, a party which asks for the people's trust must prove that it trusts the people and a party which hopes to call forth the best the Nation can achieve must embody the best of the Nation's heritage and traditions. "What we seek for our Nation, we hope for all people: individual freedom in the framework of a just society, political freedom in the framework of meaningful participation by all citizens. Bound by the United States Constitution, aware that a party must be responsive to be worthy of responsibility, we pledge ourselves to open, honest endeavor and to the conduct of public affairs in a manner worthy of a society of free people. "Under God, and for these ends and upon these principles, we do establish and adopt this Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States of America." From the Constitution of the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party: "We, the members of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party, in the State Convention assembled, in order to organize and perpetuate a representative, effective and responsible party organization in the State of Minnesota, affiliate with, and advance the interests of the Democratic Party nationally, sustain and advance principles of liberal democracy, and uphold human and civil rights, and constitutional government do establish this Constitution." I could not find the corresponding Republican documents online, but I suspect that they are equally broad and general, and I would be surprised if there is anything in the "definition" of Republican that excludes me (a Democrat) any more than anything in the Democratic Party's "definition" quoted above necessarily excludes a conservative Republican. What defines a political party at any given moment, ideologically speaking, is its platform, its candidates' agendas, its public officeholders' policies, and its delegates' and members' priorities--none of which are set in stone, any of which can change from election to election, and which may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. BRM Brian Melendez St. Anthony West (Ward 3) ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
