Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
On 11/28/2018 9:33 AM, Joseph Canedo wrote:
I’d like to change some input to modify used font but only in parts of
it, for example to implement having first line with different font. So
basically if I have text with macros etc…:
% firstlines-001.tex
\setupbodyfont
[pagella]
\setupalign
[tolerant,stretch]
\setupfirstline
[alternative=line,
color=darkred,
style=\setfontfeature{smallcaps}]
\setupfirstline
[fancy]
[n=3]
\setupfirstline
[fancier]
[alternative=word,
color=darkblue,
style=bold,
n=3]
\setupfirstline
[weirder]
[alternative=line,
color=darkgreen,
style=\setfontfeature{smallcaps},
n=3]
\setupinitial
[location=text,
n=2,
color=darkred,
voffset=1.2\lineheight,
before={\blank[2*big]}]
% \enabletrackers[typesetters.firstlines,typesetters.initials]
\starttext
\setfirstline
\input ward \par
\placeinitial
\input ward \par
\setupindenting[medium,yes]
\setinitial % \placeinitial
\input ward \par
\setinitial % \placeinitial
\setfirstline
\input ward \par
\setfirstline[fancy]
\input ward \par
\setfirstline[fancier]
\input ward \par
\setinitial % \placeinitial
\setfirstline[weirder]
\input ward \par
\stoptext
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
I’d like to change some input to modify used font but only in parts of it, for
example to implement having first line with different font. So basically if I
have text with macros etc…:
\WORD{i}eu \Note[]{}{Ebrieux \LeftDot 11.a.}crea au commencement le ciel et la
terre. Et la terre
estoit \Note[]{*}{{\Hebreu\Tav\He\Vav} c'est a dire/ vaine/ qui ne proffite et
ne sert a rien.}indisposee et \Note[]{*}{{\Hebreu\Bet\He\Vav} non remplie &
ornee/ de plantes et d'animaux.}vuyde/ et les tenebres estoient sus les
abysmes/ et \Note[]{*}{Selon les Ebrieux/ ou esperit: car
{\Hebreu\Dalet\Vav\Het} signifie vent & esperit.}le vent \Note[]{*}{ou/
vehement car {\Hebreu\Alef\Lamed\Resh\He\Yod\Memfinal} se prent aucunesfois
pour hault/ excellent/ & puissant.}de Dieu se demenoit par dessus les eaues.
I’d like to typeset the beginning of that using a different font BigFont (but
letting lua code to determine the position of closing brace). Ie :
{\BigFont \WORD{i}eu \Note[]{}{Ebrieux \LeftDot 11.a.}crea au commencement le
ciel et la terre.} Et la terre
estoit \Note[]{*}{{\Hebreu\Tav\He\Vav} c'est a dire/ vaine/ qui ne proffite et
ne sert a rien.}indisposee et \Note[]{*}{{\Hebreu\Bet\He\Vav} non remplie &
ornee/ de plantes et d'animaux.}vuyde/ et les tenebres estoient sus les
abysmes/ et \Note[]{*}{Selon les Ebrieux/ ou esperit: car
{\Hebreu\Dalet\Vav\Het} signifie vent & esperit.}le vent \Note[]{*}{ou/
vehement car {\Hebreu\Alef\Lamed\Resh\He\Yod\Memfinal} se prent aucunesfois
pour hault/ excellent/ & puissant.}de Dieu se demenoit par dessus les eaues.
To do this I’d need to extract the macros etc… « Worst » case scenario I’ll
write a simple adhoc lpeg grammar to parse input, but was wondering if such
grammar existed already in context lua code, or elsewhere.
Thanks
De : Hans Hagen
Envoyé le :mercredi 28 novembre 2018 09:04
À : Joseph Canedo; mailing list for ConTeXt users
Objet :Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
On 11/27/2018 11:00 PM, Joseph Canedo wrote:
> I’ve tried context.processbuffer but I am afraid it’s not what I am
> after, most probably I have not phrased clearly my question.
>
> What I am looking for is roughly what’s described in Taco’s presentation
> https://meeting.contextgarden.net/2014/talks/2014-09-12-taco-luatex/luatextalk.pdf
>
> A way to decompose some input into tokens which represent either normal
> text, csnames etc… I had a try to this token library in LuaTeX but I
> could not find examples of how to use it. I suspect that buffers
> mechanism use it somehow.
you can pick up stuff from the input so in principle you can start your
input with a token scanner, but then you not only end up with lots of
'tokens' but also need to interpret them ... and that is actually what
tex is quite effecient in and good at, so the question is: what do you
want to achieve ... there might be better ways
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
On 11/27/2018 11:00 PM, Joseph Canedo wrote: I’ve tried context.processbuffer but I am afraid it’s not what I am after, most probably I have not phrased clearly my question. What I am looking for is roughly what’s described in Taco’s presentation https://meeting.contextgarden.net/2014/talks/2014-09-12-taco-luatex/luatextalk.pdf A way to decompose some input into tokens which represent either normal text, csnames etc… I had a try to this token library in LuaTeX but I could not find examples of how to use it. I suspect that buffers mechanism use it somehow. you can pick up stuff from the input so in principle you can start your input with a token scanner, but then you not only end up with lots of 'tokens' but also need to interpret them ... and that is actually what tex is quite effecient in and good at, so the question is: what do you want to achieve ... there might be better ways Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
I’ve tried context.processbuffer but I am afraid it’s not what I am after, most
probably I have not phrased clearly my question.
What I am looking for is roughly what’s described in Taco’s presentation
https://meeting.contextgarden.net/2014/talks/2014-09-12-taco-luatex/luatextalk.pdf
A way to decompose some input into tokens which represent either normal text,
csnames etc… I had a try to this token library in LuaTeX but I could not find
examples of how to use it. I suspect that buffers mechanism use it somehow.
Thanks
De : Hans Hagen
Envoyé le :lundi 26 novembre 2018 18:55
À : mailing list for ConTeXt users; Joseph Canedo
Objet :Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
On 11/26/2018 3:19 PM, Joseph Canedo wrote:
> \startluacode
>
> function zzz_function(text)
>
> - How to process ‘text’ to get bits which are macros, groups etc… ?
> Eventually expanded ?
>
> end
>
> \stopluacode
>
> \definebuffer[ZZZBuffer]
>
> \def\StartZZZ{\grabbufferdata[ZZZBuffer][StartZZZ][StopZZZ]}
>
> \def\StopZZZ{\ctxlua{zzz_function(buffers.getcontent('ZZZBuffer'))}}
>
> \StartZZZ
>
> \input knuth
>
> \StopZZZ
context.processbuffer { "ZZZBuffer" }
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
On 11/26/2018 3:19 PM, Joseph Canedo wrote:
\startluacode
function zzz_function(text)
- How to process ‘text’ to get bits which are macros, groups etc… ?
Eventually expanded ?
end
\stopluacode
\definebuffer[ZZZBuffer]
\def\StartZZZ{\grabbufferdata[ZZZBuffer][StartZZZ][StopZZZ]}
\def\StopZZZ{\ctxlua{zzz_function(buffers.getcontent('ZZZBuffer'))}}
\StartZZZ
\input knuth
\StopZZZ
context.processbuffer { "ZZZBuffer" }
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Grammar to parse TeX input?
Dear list,
I use a buffer to make some text processing. That text contains TeX macros etc…
and I’d like to know if there is some feature in lua to parse the text to
extract bits which macros, normal text etc… ?
Thanks
Best regards
Joseph
Example of pseudo MWE follows.
\startluacode
function zzz_function(text)
- How to process ‘text’ to get bits which are macros, groups etc… ? Eventually
expanded ?
end
\stopluacode
\definebuffer[ZZZBuffer]
\def\StartZZZ{\grabbufferdata[ZZZBuffer][StartZZZ][StopZZZ]}
\def\StopZZZ{\ctxlua{zzz_function(buffers.getcontent('ZZZBuffer'))}}
\StartZZZ
\input knuth
\StopZZZ
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Am 2010-07-28 um 01:10 schrieb Marcin Borkowski: BTW, I know of at least two derogatory terms concerning my nation: Polak (which is exactly what a Polish man is called in Polish) is considered rude in the US, and polnische Wirtchaft is very derogatory in German. I have to admit that I am not extremely happy because of these terms, but it's not a real problem for me. While I know Polacken as a derogatory word for Polish (or other Eastern European) people, I never encountered polnische Wirtschaft. Similar cuss words are Itzig for Jews (originally just a form of Isaak), Molukker for any black people (originally Dutch Indonesians), similar Kaffer (originally used as a rather neutral name for Xhosa in the German colonies, but meaning unbeliever in Arabian and farmer in Yiddish), Kanake for arbitrary Southern foreigners (originally Polynesian human and a positive name of German sailors for their Polynesian colleagues) etc. Of course there are a lot of prejudices against several groups that lead to derogatory words, in German e.g. türken (turk) = to counterfeit (probably based on a chess playing machine fraud) (herum)zigeunern (gipsy (around)) = to leisurely wander, also sexually Schwulitäten (homosexualities) = difficulties spanisch (spanish) = dubious (das kommt mir spanisch vor = that is/ sounds dubious) Schotten... (scottish) = cheap (e.g. Schottenpreise = Scottish prices) More on our gender topic is herrlich (lordlike) = great dämlich (ladylike) = stupid Or some words that changed their meaning over the centuries: Weib = shrew/broad (used to mean just woman, while Frau meant lady) So, as several other posters already said: It's not the words who are to blame, but the speakers and their mind sets... Grüßlinge vom Südsee! Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +, John Haltiwanger napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? And what's wrong with Negro? AFAIK, it means black, so it just describes the reality. This is what a word should do, right? And btw, the term Afroamerican doesn't really make much sense to me: what would you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted to distinguish him from a white man? (Please note that by man, I mean a human being of any sex;).) To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the fact that I am not a native speaker of English. I suspect that somehow the neutral term Negro started being used in a derogatory fashion, and that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. And that's why I usually say just black people. So what is your issue here then? You are already working by the rules I proposed: using the words that the group wishes to be called by (or at least not using the words which they don't). BTW, 'Negro' is definitely not a term to be used for referring to black Americans. IIRC, it is a positive term in Brazil. The point is to be aware of these things and to respect people's wishes regarding them, rather than blithely pretending that any name you use should automatically be fine simply because, well, YOU don't see the problem with using the term Negro (for instance). 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). Well, onerous might not be the best word. Scary might be better. You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language by hand is a very bad idea. Maybe this is partly because I live in a former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. Another reason maybe that it seems to me that one of the first groups to talk about political correctness (maybe even coining the phrase, I don't know) were feminists, who did so much more harm to women in general than we usually imagine. I understand your sensitivity vis a vis Regime Imposed language tuning. You have got to be kidding me with that anti-feminist talk, though. I'm not going to go there with you, especially after your explanation below. This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a depressing thought. I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well fit for this particular purpose. (Of course, we all know notable exceptions. Also note that better/worse fit for one particular purpose is completely unrelated to better/worse in general.) I'd laugh at this if it wasn't the same shit that's been going around for years in the math/IT circles. Socialization is the cause behind this, not natural differences in brain structure. If the society has decided to accept and repeat this fact over and over, and men will generally act as if it is true (pushing out females who make the attempt), then it will come to appear as true. But that doesn't make it any less BS. Put out some science for that one, dude. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive :
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote:
On 28-7-2010 1:12, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 09:53:18AM -0700, Rory Molinari napisa#322;(a):
I usually flip a coin to choose between he and she before I start
a document, and stick with it. (If I think the issue might be of
interest to the reader I add a footnote explaining this.)
I like that! Although I bet that sooner or later some stupid feminist
will accuse you of cheating (unless you toss the female side more
often, in which case she'll be waiting for this tendency to change;)...)
as normally one can swap he/she without problems, we can make a module for
that ..
% Of course one can now wonder if \heshe or \shehe should be defined first.
\getrandomcount\scratchcounter{0}{10}
\ifnum\scratchcounter5
\enablemode[gender:male]
\edef\heshe {he}
\edef\HeShe {He}
\edef\hisher{His}
\else
\enablemode[gender:female]
\edef\heshe {she}
\edef\HeShe {She}
\edef\hisher{Her}
\fi
\let\shehe \heshe
\let\SheHe \HeShe
\let\herhis\hisher
\starttext
I wonder if \heshe\ likes reading this article.
\stoptext
(looks like i need to move some initialization code as the seed is set at
starttext time which is too late)
This is really cool :)
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:29 AM, John Haltiwanger wrote: On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Marcin Borkowski I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well fit for this particular purpose. (Of course, we all know notable exceptions. Also note that better/worse fit for one particular purpose is completely unrelated to better/worse in general.) I'd laugh at this if it wasn't the same shit that's been going around for years in the math/IT circles. Socialization is the cause behind this, not natural differences in brain structure. If the society has decided to accept and repeat this fact over and over, and men will generally act as if it is true (pushing out females who make the attempt), then it will come to appear as true. But that doesn't make it any less BS. No no, I've seen excellent scientific research on this question. It was in a German periodical of 1938. The article explained why women can't do math. I also gave a rigorous demonstration that Poles are genetically inferior to Germans and can only be plumbers or thieves... But seriously: Marcin, I would recommend you stop posting on this. All you show is your complete lack of intellectual awareness. You're embarrassing yourself, and that's all. Thomas ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:00:09PM -0700, David Rogers napisa#322;(a): * Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl [2010-07-28 00:57]: Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +, John Haltiwanger napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? And what's wrong with Negro? AFAIK, it means black, so it just describes the reality. This is what a word should do, right? And btw, the term Afroamerican doesn't really make much sense to me: what would you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted to distinguish him from a white man? (Please note that by man, I mean a human being of any sex;).) To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the fact that I am not a native speaker of English. I suspect that somehow the neutral term Negro started being used in a derogatory fashion, and that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. And that's why I usually say just black people. Precisely. Some people began to use an ordinary word in a derogatory way. After that, the word came to be recognized as ONLY a derogatory word, and lost its status as an ordinary word. It then seemed that the best thing to do was to find a neutral word to replace the derogatory one, so that people could speak without being rude. But the new word became dirty as well, so a third word had to be brought into service. And so on. Part of the problem is that the meaning of a word can be changed by the intention of the speaker. Here's an example: I know a woman who moved here from another country. Іn the country where she lived before, there was a group of people she hated. When she says the name of that group, it is a dirty word. When I say the same word, it is neutral. And if we teach my friend a new word for that group of people, she will change our new word into a dirty word as well. Changing the syllables she utters does not change her intention. Good point. I would bet my money that Afroamerican would be rude in some 10-20 years if it were a shorter word... I suspect that it will be shortened to Afro or Afroam or something like that and only then will become derogatory... 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). Well, onerous might not be the best word. Scary might be better. You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language by hand is a very bad idea. Maybe this is partly because I live in a former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. In many cases, marginalized groups do request language changes, but very often those requested changes then receive very strong support from the Man. Without that institutional support (mainly from government agencies and schools), probably some of the new words would stick; others would not. Some new words may be perfectly appropriate; others are difficult to understand or even contrary to the truth. (One example: in the area where I live, a person who requires treatment in a mental hospital is called a mental health consumer - yet mental health is not something that can be consumed. One of the local men, who has spent much of his life in mental hospitals and has become an activist for improving the conditions there, rejects such nonsensical labels and insists on being called a crazy person.) And that's both funny and quite reasonable. Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dnia Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:39:09AM +0200, Thomas A. Schmitz napisa#322;(a): On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:29 AM, John Haltiwanger wrote: On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Marcin Borkowski I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well fit for this particular purpose. (Of course, we all know notable exceptions. Also note that better/worse fit for one particular purpose is completely unrelated to better/worse in general.) I'd laugh at this if it wasn't the same shit that's been going around for years in the math/IT circles. Socialization is the cause behind this, not natural differences in brain structure. If the society has decided to accept and repeat this fact over and over, and men will generally act as if it is true (pushing out females who make the attempt), then it will come to appear as true. But that doesn't make it any less BS. No no, I've seen excellent scientific research on this question. It was in a German periodical of 1938. The article explained why women can't do math. I also gave a rigorous demonstration that Poles are genetically inferior to Germans and can only be plumbers or thieves... But seriously: Marcin, I would recommend you stop posting on this. All you show is your complete lack of intellectual awareness. You're embarrassing yourself, and that's all. Why? Only because I don't believe some claims I find to be highly controversial? And BTW, where's the famous freedom of speech? I do not claim that I have any research behind my opinion, but I claim that neither have you. Any experiment in social science involves so many factors that obtaining any certain results is imho nearly impossible. And I do not find anything which would mean that women are worse than men just because they are different. Of course, it might be the case that I am just not right, but I don't think that being not right is embarassing when you have no proofs in either direction. In other words: I cannot imagine an experiment which might prove any of us wrong on this subject, and I can see some hints which support your claim and some which support mine. Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dnia Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 09:29:49AM +, John Haltiwanger napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +, John Haltiwanger napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? And what's wrong with Negro? AFAIK, it means black, so it just describes the reality. This is what a word should do, right? And btw, the term Afroamerican doesn't really make much sense to me: what would you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted to distinguish him from a white man? (Please note that by man, I mean a human being of any sex;).) To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the fact that I am not a native speaker of English. I suspect that somehow the neutral term Negro started being used in a derogatory fashion, and that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. And that's why I usually say just black people. So what is your issue here then? You are already working by the rules I proposed: using the words that the group wishes to be called by (or at least not using the words which they don't). I guess the difference lies at least in one point: black man is something that *means* a black man. Afroamerican means nothing or something different. I prefer to use words in *their* meanings. And (though I am not sure about it at all) I think it might be the case that the introduction of black people instead of Negroes might have been more spontaneous, and Afroamericans seems to be supported by some governmental/lobbyist groups. BTW, 'Negro' is definitely not a term to be used for referring to black Americans. IIRC, it is a positive term in Brazil. The point is to be aware of these things and to respect people's wishes regarding them, rather than blithely pretending that any name you use should automatically be fine simply because, well, YOU don't see the problem with using the term Negro (for instance). The point is, is it the wishes of the people involved, or the wishes of some groups who *claim* to represent them? 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). Well, onerous might not be the best word. Scary might be better. You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language by hand is a very bad idea. Maybe this is partly because I live in a former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. Another reason maybe that it seems to me that one of the first groups to talk about political correctness (maybe even coining the phrase, I don't know) were feminists, who did so much more harm to women in general than we usually imagine. I understand your sensitivity vis a vis Regime Imposed language tuning. You have got to be kidding me with that anti-feminist talk, though. I'm not going to go there with you, especially after your explanation below. Well, you don't have to. Maybe it would be a good idea to mention that I know some women who have the same opinion as me on feminism. This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a depressing thought. I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well fit for this particular purpose. (Of course, we all know notable exceptions. Also note that better/worse fit for one particular purpose is
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Hi! Henning Hraban Ramm a écrit : So, as several other posters already said: It's not the words who are to blame, but the speakers and their mind sets... Let me just add a comment about he/she and the willing of the speakers. In Esperanto, there is li = he ŝi = she (same pronunciation) ĝi = it (pronounce ĝ like j in just : dj) The neutral is used when you do not specify the gender (like speaking about a cat without specifying male or female) or when there is no gender (for an object). But Zamenhof, the initiator of Esperanto, said you also use it for young humans, like babies. So it is a real neutral form. But people want to keep their own use (the use from their language) and only keep ĝi for objects. (even if, for example in English, one uses she when speaking about ones boat!!) Some other want to have ŝli as neutral. Other again want to suppress li and ŝi and only have ri. There is no solution to the problem; any solution will find people not agreeing for one or another reason. But one has to try to avoid discrimination. Alain ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
P.S. Both homme and on in French comes from the Latin homo. Yes, and the derivation of “on” from “homme” was apparently inspired by the Early German construct Mann - man (that was maybe not spelt that way at the time). Ironic, that now some advocate the use of “mensch” in German to replace “man”... Arthur ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dne torek 27. julija 2010 ob 17:28:51 je Arthur Reutenauer napisal(a): P.S. Both homme and on in French comes from the Latin homo. Yes, and the derivation of “on” from “homme” was apparently inspired by the Early German construct Mann - man (that was maybe not spelt that way at the time). Ironic, that now some advocate the use of “mensch” in German to replace “man”... History of languages is a funny thing, yeah... :] Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
* Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl [2010-07-27 16:15]: On 27-7-2010 4:10, David Rogers wrote: In academic writing especially, it's necessary to weigh the effect of this distraction before using anything other than standard constructions. Sometimes this kind of focus on the writer's personality and politics may be welcome, or even necessary; but in some situations it is not. so what do copy editors of scientific publications do when they see mixed (or inconsistent) usage of he/she/etc? I'm not a regular reader of any scientific publications. I suspect there are different de facto standards in different fields. -- David ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 2:48 AM, John Haltiwanger john.haltiwan...@gmail.com wrote: Whether it is useless/'no problem exists' is not up to you to decide: it is up to those who do find it important. As long as some people find it important, no childish dismissals will remove that importance. It seems the most successful/widely adopted form is to vary from 'he' to 'she' (so that in one sentence you use one, in the next another). Some authors even change the gender within a sentence. This method was adopted because 'one' (the real correct unisex pronoun) is just too awkward for extended use. The morphographic he/she/he/she method reads surprisingly well. I would find a switch like that weird and disconcerting, as if the text were unmoored in some sense. I usually flip a coin to choose between he and she before I start a document, and stick with it. (If I think the issue might be of interest to the reader I add a footnote explaining this.) I very much dislike the singular they, though its use goes back centuries. Cheers, Rory On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name wrote: Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 01:47:13 je David Rogers napisal(a): * Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name [2010-07-25 23:33]: -.-.- P.S. Is there a nicer wording then (s)he for referencing persona in unisex gender (other then one)? The correct unisex pronoun is he. This whole question is an invented problem where no real problem exists. Thanks for explaining. This unisex and other politically correct stuff is always a bit odd. Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dne torek 27. julija 2010 ob 18:33:34 je David Rogers napisal(a): I'm not a regular reader of any scientific publications. I suspect there are different de facto standards in different fields. In legal texts we usually help ourselves with definitions in the beginning of the text: landlord or landlady hereinafter referred to as 'bastard' but this obviously doesn't work well in non-legal texts. Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 07/27/2010 06:59 PM, Matija Šuklje wrote: Dne torek 27. julija 2010 ob 18:33:34 je David Rogers napisal(a): I'm not a regular reader of any scientific publications. I suspect there are different de facto standards in different fields. In legal texts we usually help ourselves with definitions in the beginning of the text: landlord or landlady hereinafter referred to as 'bastard' In some types of document, you can introduce a fake name, like Knuth does in the TeXbook. Best wishes, Taco ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name wrote: Personally I feel that the political correctness has gone a bit too far, but where the line should be drawn, I don't know. I can provide a few examples of where political correctness *has* gone too far and can actually be even counter-productive: In Slovenia it is rude to call Bosnians Bosanci, Albanians Šiptarji and Gypsies Cigani and the official political correct terms for them are: Bošnjaki, Albanci and Romi. With first two the problem is that they even officially call _themselves_ Bosanci and Šiptarji in their own language. Who is considering it rude? Do the Bosanci consider it rude when you call them Bosanci and prefer that you would use Bošnjaki? Or is it a different set of people who are offended? This is my personal litmus test for navigating the preferred naming of groups (preferred by the groups themselves, that is). There are many cases in American culture at least of groups using a term within themselves that they do not want others to use, but not usually the names used by that population when politely referring to themselves (i.e. generally these terms are loaded slang words appropriated from the dominating culture and internalized in order to redistribute the balance of power that forms around that word.) So I'm wondering if the situation you describe in Slovenia is being driven by these groups, or if those groups would actually prefer to go by the name they call themselves. With the so called Roma people, the problem is even bigger, since to my knowledge Roma are just one of the tribes. So by having to call _all_ gypsies Roma, you are effectively putting one tribe in front of the others and denying the existence of the others. I have to ask the same question: Do the tribes in general prefer Romi over Cigani? Also: am I going to far in assuming that any movement to encourage them to all be called by their individual tribal names would inevitably be referred to as pushing a 'politically correct' agenda? In proper synchronistic fashion, I came across this piece today that fits our topic of discussion: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703467304575383131592767868.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read -- Lost in Translation -- New cognitive research suggests that language profoundly influences the way people see the world; a different sense of blame in Japanese and Spanish All this new research shows us that the languages we speak not only reflect or express our thoughts, but also shape the very thoughts we wish to express. The structures that exist in our languages profoundly shape how we construct reality, and help make us as smart and sophisticated as we are. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +, John Haltiwanger napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? And what's wrong with Negro? AFAIK, it means black, so it just describes the reality. This is what a word should do, right? And btw, the term Afroamerican doesn't really make much sense to me: what would you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted to distinguish him from a white man? (Please note that by man, I mean a human being of any sex;).) To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the fact that I am not a native speaker of English. I suspect that somehow the neutral term Negro started being used in a derogatory fashion, and that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. And that's why I usually say just black people. 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). Well, onerous might not be the best word. Scary might be better. You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language by hand is a very bad idea. Maybe this is partly because I live in a former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. Another reason maybe that it seems to me that one of the first groups to talk about political correctness (maybe even coining the phrase, I don't know) were feminists, who did so much more harm to women in general than we usually imagine. This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a depressing thought. I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well fit for this particular purpose. (Of course, we all know notable exceptions. Also note that better/worse fit for one particular purpose is completely unrelated to better/worse in general.) I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Then, anyone reading can insert he/she or another option to their own taste. Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) Emacs: Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 05:27:11PM +0200, Matija Šuklje napisa#322;(a): With the so called Roma people, the problem is even bigger, since to my knowledge Roma are just one of the tribes. So by having to call _all_ gypsies Roma, you are effectively putting one tribe in front of the others and denying the existence of the others. We have the same issue in Polish. Until now I didn't know that the Romowie vs Cyganie (in Polish) has also this kind of problem. This particular example is even more interesting because of a few Polish words, originating from the word Cyganie, like cyganeria (which means roughly a group of artists, living (usually together) in a leisurely way), or ocyganić, which means to cheat (this one is rather old-fashioned). I guess that maybe we (and groups like Gypsies) have just to live with that - even if we try to eliminate such words, another ones will emerge. For instance: I think that gay was first introduced by the LGBT lobby as a positive term, which now (at least in Polish) is beginning to be derogatory. Here, this works in exactly the opposite direction: it is not the language which shapes our thinking, but our attitudes which shape our language. In the Gypsy case, instead of introducing a new word (Romowie), I would rather try to discourage using ocyganić in the sense of cheating. BTW, I know of at least two derogatory terms concerning my nation: Polak (which is exactly what a Polish man is called in Polish) is considered rude in the US, and polnische Wirtchaft is very derogatory in German. I have to admit that I am not extremely happy because of these terms, but it's not a real problem for me. Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) Emacs: Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 09:53:18AM -0700, Rory Molinari napisa#322;(a): I usually flip a coin to choose between he and she before I start a document, and stick with it. (If I think the issue might be of interest to the reader I add a footnote explaining this.) I like that! Although I bet that sooner or later some stupid feminist will accuse you of cheating (unless you toss the female side more often, in which case she'll be waiting for this tendency to change;)...) Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 28-7-2010 1:10, Marcin Borkowski wrote: BTW, I know of at least two derogatory terms concerning my nation: Polak (which is exactly what a Polish man is called in Polish) is considered rude in the US, and polnische Wirtchaft is very derogatory in German. I have to admit that I am not extremely happy because of these terms, but it's not a real problem for me. It's definitely good to know that when choosing names one should be careful. I just hope that none of the language related tags in context is problematic. (Years ago there was a really nasty discussion on the xetex list about naming languages in some latex package .. sort of got out of hands.) Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 28-7-2010 1:12, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 09:53:18AM -0700, Rory Molinari napisa#322;(a):
I usually flip a coin to choose between he and she before I start
a document, and stick with it. (If I think the issue might be of
interest to the reader I add a footnote explaining this.)
I like that! Although I bet that sooner or later some stupid feminist
will accuse you of cheating (unless you toss the female side more
often, in which case she'll be waiting for this tendency to change;)...)
as normally one can swap he/she without problems, we can make a module
for that ..
% Of course one can now wonder if \heshe or \shehe should be defined first.
\getrandomcount\scratchcounter{0}{10}
\ifnum\scratchcounter5
\enablemode[gender:male]
\edef\heshe {he}
\edef\HeShe {He}
\edef\hisher{His}
\else
\enablemode[gender:female]
\edef\heshe {she}
\edef\HeShe {She}
\edef\hisher{Her}
\fi
\let\shehe \heshe
\let\SheHe \HeShe
\let\herhis\hisher
\starttext
I wonder if \heshe\ likes reading this article.
\stoptext
(looks like i need to move some initialization code as the seed is set
at starttext time which is too late)
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: I like that! Although I bet that sooner or later some stupid feminist will accuse you of cheating (unless you toss the female side more often, in which case she'll be waiting for this tendency to change;)...) I doubt I will ever write enough documents for my coin to be subjected to a statistically rigorous test of fairness! Cheers, Rory ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 05:18:55PM -0700, Rory Molinari napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: I like that! Although I bet that sooner or later some stupid feminist will accuse you of cheating (unless you toss the female side more often, in which case she'll be waiting for this tendency to change;)...) I doubt I will ever write enough documents for my coin to be subjected to a statistically rigorous test of fairness! Agree, but try to explain that to a fanatic feminist! Cheers, Rory Best, -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
* Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl [2010-07-28 00:57]: Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +, John Haltiwanger napisa#322;(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? And what's wrong with Negro? AFAIK, it means black, so it just describes the reality. This is what a word should do, right? And btw, the term Afroamerican doesn't really make much sense to me: what would you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted to distinguish him from a white man? (Please note that by man, I mean a human being of any sex;).) To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the fact that I am not a native speaker of English. I suspect that somehow the neutral term Negro started being used in a derogatory fashion, and that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. And that's why I usually say just black people. Precisely. Some people began to use an ordinary word in a derogatory way. After that, the word came to be recognized as ONLY a derogatory word, and lost its status as an ordinary word. It then seemed that the best thing to do was to find a neutral word to replace the derogatory one, so that people could speak without being rude. But the new word became dirty as well, so a third word had to be brought into service. And so on. Part of the problem is that the meaning of a word can be changed by the intention of the speaker. Here's an example: I know a woman who moved here from another country. Іn the country where she lived before, there was a group of people she hated. When she says the name of that group, it is a dirty word. When I say the same word, it is neutral. And if we teach my friend a new word for that group of people, she will change our new word into a dirty word as well. Changing the syllables she utters does not change her intention. 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). Well, onerous might not be the best word. Scary might be better. You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language by hand is a very bad idea. Maybe this is partly because I live in a former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. In many cases, marginalized groups do request language changes, but very often those requested changes then receive very strong support from the Man. Without that institutional support (mainly from government agencies and schools), probably some of the new words would stick; others would not. Some new words may be perfectly appropriate; others are difficult to understand or even contrary to the truth. (One example: in the area where I live, a person who requires treatment in a mental hospital is called a mental health consumer - yet mental health is not something that can be consumed. One of the local men, who has spent much of his life in mental hospitals and has become an activist for improving the conditions there, rejects such nonsensical labels and insists on being called a crazy person.) -- David ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
On Monday 26 July 2010 01:47:13 David Rogers wrote: * Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name [2010-07-25 23:33]: -.-.- P.S. Is there a nicer wording then (s)he for referencing persona in unisex gender (other then one)? The correct unisex pronoun is he. This whole question is an invented problem where no real problem exists. They is usually acceptable, even though it's technically incorrect. Many teachers of English are against its use, but in real life nobody cares. He sells sea shells by the sea shore? Alan ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... Regards -- Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a depressing thought. I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Then, anyone reading can insert he/she or another option to their own taste. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 27-7-2010 3:06, John Haltiwanger wrote: I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Then, anyone reading can insert he/she or another option to their own taste. Interesting ... if we can come up with a nice symbol that we can agree on it should be doable to get it included in quite some tex related fonts (the group involved in maintaining them is not so large) ... and then we can set a standard. After all, symbols like copyright and registered made it into fonts and those are used (if at all) only a few times in documents and in unseen places. Maybe arthur knows if there are scripts that have such a symbol. Of course then there is the issue of how to pronounce it. Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote: On 27-7-2010 3:06, John Haltiwanger wrote: I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Then, anyone reading can insert he/she or another option to their own taste. Interesting ... if we can come up with a nice symbol that we can agree on it should be doable to get it included in quite some tex related fonts (the group involved in maintaining them is not so large) ... and then we can set a standard. After all, symbols like copyright and registered made it into fonts and those are used (if at all) only a few times in documents and in unseen places. Maybe arthur knows if there are scripts that have such a symbol. Of course then there is the issue of how to pronounce it. U+26A7 MALE WITH STROKE AND MALE AND FEMALE SIGN ? -- luigi ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
... When I remove + and /^ from general gender symbols O + and ^ / O I get simply 0, so why not use this for (wo)man in general :) Lukas On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:17:51 +0200, Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote: On 27-7-2010 3:06, John Haltiwanger wrote: I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Then, anyone reading can insert he/she or another option to their own taste. Interesting ... if we can come up with a nice symbol that we can agree on it should be doable to get it included in quite some tex related fonts (the group involved in maintaining them is not so large) ... and then we can set a standard. After all, symbols like copyright and registered made it into fonts and those are used (if at all) only a few times in documents and in unseen places. Maybe arthur knows if there are scripts that have such a symbol. Of course then there is the issue of how to pronounce it. Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Unicode encodes scripts, not languages, so that's outside of its scope. Even if you were to develop a new character that would function as a neutral gender pronoun in English or other languages, it would still be attached to one (or several) language(s). You're of course free to advocate its use in all existing languages with a written standard, but that would take some time ;-) And even then, it would leave out the vast majority of languages, those that are only spoken. Arthur ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 07/27/2010 03:26 PM, Procházka Lukáš wrote: ... When I remove + and /^ from general gender symbols O + and ^ / O I get simply 0, so why not use this for (wo)man in general :) This actually exists as Unicode character U+26AA, but its purpose is to mark 'sexless' which is not the quite same as gender-neutral. Best wishes, Taco ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
* John Haltiwanger john.haltiwan...@gmail.com [2010-07-27 13:06]: 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not the Man who issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a depressing thought. I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Then, anyone reading can insert he/she or another option to their own taste. That's an interesting idea, and in a way gets neatly around some of the clumsiness of he/she and other constructions. One of the difficulties with ALL the alternative ways of writing pronouns, including new proposals, is that the mere use of any of them places the writer into a sort of self-constructed ghetto. There is no way around that that I can see, other than the hope that all other writers adopt the same alternative way and turn it into the standard. In the mean time, alternative constructions will continue to call attention to the writer's personal and political views, for both good and ill; as long as the writer's audience includes people who remember standard English, any new pronouns (or old ones used in different ways) become not just pronouns but part of the writer's message. In academic writing especially, it's necessary to weigh the effect of this distraction before using anything other than standard constructions. Sometimes this kind of focus on the writer's personality and politics may be welcome, or even necessary; but in some situations it is not. -- Thanks David ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Arthur Reutenauer arthur.reutena...@normalesup.org wrote: I for one have always thought it would be interesting to develop a Unicode character that provides a symbol representing a neutral gender pronoun. Unicode encodes scripts, not languages, so that's outside of its scope. Even if you were to develop a new character that would function as a neutral gender pronoun in English or other languages, it would still be attached to one (or several) language(s). You're of course free to advocate its use in all existing languages with a written standard, but that would take some time ;-) And even then, it would leave out the vast majority of languages, those that are only spoken. I don't see how this applies: there are plenty of characters provided by Unicode that can be used regardless of which language I am writing in.. such as the male/female symbols already mentioned. So in this case, it would be a symbol for the 'language of the internet', not simply for a single language. Some symbols are available regardless of the general language used, correct? Granted, I know next to nothing about font encodings, so I'll defer here to the knowledge of others. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 27-7-2010 4:10, David Rogers wrote: In academic writing especially, it's necessary to weigh the effect of this distraction before using anything other than standard constructions. Sometimes this kind of focus on the writer's personality and politics may be welcome, or even necessary; but in some situations it is not. so what do copy editors of scientific publications do when they see mixed (or inconsistent) usage of he/she/etc? Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
I don't see how this applies: there are plenty of characters provided by Unicode that can be used regardless of which language I am writing in.. Yes, but they're symbols, not letters (nor ideographs or characters from a syllabary, etc.); and they're even less words. Are you suggesting we replace some pronoun(s) by a symbol? I don't see how that would work. And even if it was adopted in writing, it would inevitably be used in speech, too, and would just as inevitably gain some particular pronounciation in actual language(s).[*] such as the male/female symbols already mentioned. But those are symbols; they do not replace the English words “male” and “female” nor their translation in any other language. So in this case, it would be a symbol for the 'language of the internet', not simply for a single language. That there be a “language of the Internet” is a strange notion to me. I personally use 6 or 7 seven natural languages to communicate over the Internet, mostly in written form (that does not include HTTP or SMTP ;-) Whatever I read or write correspond to actual words that may be pronounced by speakers of those languages; if I were to use the symbol you would like to invent (and I'm not saying I wouldn't use it, if it existed), it would have to correspond to actual words in the respective languages, otherwise you would just have invented a way of making people mute. In other words, you cannot invent a new symbol if what you want is a new word. They're just two different things. Of course, you may want to invent both at the same time. (I should really have asked for Saussure's _Cours de linguistique générale_ for my birthday as I originally intended. I would have much more insights on the subject. Instead, I got a grammar of Etruscan :-) Some symbols are available regardless of the general language used, correct? Of course, you may use any Unicode character you want in your texts. It may make no sense, though. Granted, I know next to nothing about font encodings, so I'll defer here to the knowledge of others. This has nothing to do with font encodings, really. It happens at another conceptual level. The issue at hand here is not technical. Arthur [*] It's admittedly a very specific example, but this is exactly what happens with the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, for example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dne torek 27. julija 2010 ob 15:26:22 je Procházka Lukáš napisal(a): I get simply 0, so why not use this for (wo)man in general :) Hmmm, this could work. You could pronounce it simply as O. I already represents the first person, so O shouldn't be too weird to represent the unisex third person, right? Also it sounds similar to on which can be used in French (e.g. on parle). Cheers, Matija -.-.- P.S. Both homme and on in French comes from the Latin homo. -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dne torek 27. julija 2010 ob 15:06:27 je John Haltiwanger napisal(a): On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski mb...@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl wrote: Hi, what an interesting discussion! My personal point of view is that the so-called political correctness is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using they or Afroamericans or other such strange inventions. These new words somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... So what do you write instead? Negro? Personally I feel that the political correctness has gone a bit too far, but where the line should be drawn, I don't know. I can provide a few examples of where political correctness *has* gone too far and can actually be even counter-productive: In Slovenia it is rude to call Bosnians Bosanci, Albanians Šiptarji and Gypsies Cigani and the official political correct terms for them are: Bošnjaki, Albanci and Romi. With first two the problem is that they even officially call _themselves_ Bosanci and Šiptarji in their own language. With the so called Roma people, the problem is even bigger, since to my knowledge Roma are just one of the tribes. So by having to call _all_ gypsies Roma, you are effectively putting one tribe in front of the others and denying the existence of the others. I have nothing against any of those ethnic groups, I'm merely trying to point out a problem. Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 01:47:13 je David Rogers napisal(a): * Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name [2010-07-25 23:33]: -.-.- P.S. Is there a nicer wording then (s)he for referencing persona in unisex gender (other then one)? The correct unisex pronoun is he. This whole question is an invented problem where no real problem exists. Thanks for explaining. This unisex and other politically correct stuff is always a bit odd. Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
Whether it is useless/'no problem exists' is not up to you to decide: it is up to those who do find it important. As long as some people find it important, no childish dismissals will remove that importance. It seems the most successful/widely adopted form is to vary from 'he' to 'she' (so that in one sentence you use one, in the next another). Some authors even change the gender within a sentence. This method was adopted because 'one' (the real correct unisex pronoun) is just too awkward for extended use. The morphographic he/she/he/she method reads surprisingly well. On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name wrote: Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 01:47:13 je David Rogers napisal(a): * Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name [2010-07-25 23:33]: -.-.- P.S. Is there a nicer wording then (s)he for referencing persona in unisex gender (other then one)? The correct unisex pronoun is he. This whole question is an invented problem where no real problem exists. Thanks for explaining. This unisex and other politically correct stuff is always a bit odd. Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 26-7-2010 11:48, John Haltiwanger wrote: It seems the most successful/widely adopted form is to vary from 'he' to 'she' (so that in one sentence you use one, in the next another). Some authors even change the gender within a sentence. This method was adopted because 'one' (the real correct unisex pronoun) is just too awkward for extended use. The morphographic he/she/he/she method reads surprisingly well. maybe male authors could use he and female authors could use she consistently (or we could get accustomed to 'it') Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote: On 26-7-2010 11:48, John Haltiwanger wrote: It seems the most successful/widely adopted form is to vary from 'he' to 'she' (so that in one sentence you use one, in the next another). Some authors even change the gender within a sentence. This method was adopted because 'one' (the real correct unisex pronoun) is just too awkward for extended use. The morphographic he/she/he/she method reads surprisingly well. maybe male authors could use he and female authors could use she consistently (or we could get accustomed to 'it') I try to use one and we . -- luigi ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 12:20:14 je luigi scarso napisal(a): I try to use one and we . I used to use one as well, but after a while it starts looking weird. for now I settled for (s)he, but I wondered if there's a nice widely adopted option like the Swiss use *Innen: e.g. StudentInnen means Studenten und Studentinnen Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 26-7-2010 1:56, Matija Šuklje wrote: Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 12:20:14 je luigi scarso napisal(a): I try to use one and we . I used to use one as well, but after a while it starts looking weird. for now I settled for (s)he, but I wondered if there's a nice widely adopted option like the Swiss use *Innen: e.g. StudentInnen means Studenten und Studentinnen Don Knuth at the QA session at Oxford 1999 (reprinted in TeX's 2^5 anniversary): And I also go through every paper and put it into the form in which I would like it to be remembered. So if a paper was was written in the 70s and I used sexist pronouns, I change that; I try to rework it so that instead of saying 'he did it', I'll say 'they did it' or something. Also I change 'which' to 'that' a lot. It's an American thing. - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 26-7-2010 11:48, John Haltiwanger wrote: It seems the most successful/widely adopted form is to vary from 'he' to 'she' (so that in one sentence you use one, in the next another). Some authors even change the gender within a sentence. This method was adopted because 'one' (the real correct unisex pronoun) is just too awkward for extended use. The morphographic he/she/he/she method reads surprisingly well. maybe male authors could use he and female authors could use she consistently (or we could get accustomed to 'it') Hans The trend that I have noticed (and which trips off the tongue most easily for British english-speakers) is to use the plural 'they' in place of the singular pronoun 'he' or 'she'. This avoids having to choose! For purists, it rankles, but then we have to accept that the language will change. Personally, for serious writing, I use the rather cumbersome, but grammatically correct, 'he or she'. I personally don't like 'he/she'. The use of 'one' as a pronoun in British english is pretty much dead and sounds very stilted to us - only the Queen and old school masters still use it! Using 'it' is not an option. Best regards, Richard Converteam UK Ltd. Registration Number: 5571739 and Converteam Ltd. Registration Number: 2416188 Registered in England and Wales. Registered office: Boughton Road, Rugby, Warwickshire, CV21 1BU. CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. http://www.converteam.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
2010/7/26 Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name: I used to use one as well, but after a while it starts looking weird. for now I settled for (s)he, but I wondered if there's a nice widely adopted option like the Swiss use *Innen: e.g. StudentInnen means Studenten und Studentinnen Please not the erigiertes Binnen-I :-) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnen-I Best Martin ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Richard Stephens
richard.steph...@converteam.com wrote:
On 26-7-2010 11:48, John Haltiwanger wrote:
It seems the most successful/widely adopted form is to vary from 'he'
to 'she' (so that in one sentence you use one, in the next another).
Some authors even change the gender within a sentence. This method was
adopted because 'one' (the real correct unisex pronoun) is just too
awkward for extended use. The morphographic he/she/he/she method reads
surprisingly well.
maybe male authors could use he and female authors could use she
consistently (or we could get accustomed to 'it')
Hans
The trend that I have noticed (and which trips off the tongue most easily
for British english-speakers) is to use the plural 'they' in place of the
singular pronoun 'he' or 'she'. This avoids having to choose! For purists,
it rankles, but then we have to accept that the language will change.
Personally, for serious writing, I use the rather cumbersome, but
grammatically correct, 'he or she'. I personally don't like 'he/she'. The
use of 'one' as a pronoun in British english is pretty much dead and sounds
very stilted to us - only the Queen and old school masters still use it!
Using 'it' is not an option.
Best regards,
Richard
The best thing about switching the pronouns between uses (so, not even
on a sentence basis--in case that is how my first explanation was
perceives--but on the 'usage' of a pronoun. So, generally restricted
to a paragraph) is that you are making the explicit ('he or she')
implicit. You demonstrate that it is equally normal for one to occur
in the place of another in the current of your explanation, without
being cumbersome to speak within any given sentence (unless one is
uncomfortable with the subject noun of a given sentence being
feminine, of course).
The solution of sticking to your own gender is complicated by the
historical-and-ongoing trend to male dominance in academia. The
problematic of the gendered pronoun emerges as male voices normalize
the male as the subject of discourse. In this way Hans' solution would
only perpetuate the issue at hand, which is that feminine pronouns
appear as an other when all you ever see is male pronouns. It's
invocation is, simply by virtue of its disparity in appearance, an
edge case. Language has deep roots in the mind such that a linguistic
framing of something as Other can and in fact does 'other' the subject
at which the framing is directed. Some theorists, both male and
female, take it to the position of only using feminine pronouns in
their examples that require third-person. Others change it within
individual sentences in a more extreme demonstration of juxtaposition.
Personally, I find it a sign of forward-thinking when pronouns are
'neutralized' through this juxtaposition of possibility (ie both are
shown to fit equally the examples provided). Perhaps it is simply the
times I grew up in, but reading a man only ever writing 'he' implies a
crucial non-existence of concern re: the subject in the writer's mind.
I don't throw out their theory as a result of it, but it is certainly
something I note.
Then again, I'm a fringe member of a fringe discipline (new media), so
perhaps what I can do/what is expected linguistically is irrelevant
for the majority.
Converteam UK Ltd. Registration Number: 5571739 and Converteam Ltd.
Registration Number: 2416188 Registered in England and Wales. Registered
office: Boughton Road, Rugby, Warwickshire, CV21 1BU.
CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may
be privileged.
If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and
do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or
store or copy the information in any medium.
http://www.converteam.com
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
___
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the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 21:33:44 je Martin Schröder napisal(a): Please not the erigiertes Binnen-I :-) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnen-I I kinda like that :] Dne ponedeljek 26. julija 2010 ob 18:23:57 je Richard Stephens napisal(a): The trend that I have noticed (and which trips off the tongue most easily for British english-speakers) is to use the plural 'they' in place of the singular pronoun 'he' or 'she'. This avoids having to choose! For purists, it rankles, but then we have to accept that the language will change. Personally, for serious writing, I use the rather cumbersome, but grammatically correct, 'he or she'. I personally don't like 'he/she'. The use of 'one' as a pronoun in British english is pretty much dead and sounds very stilted to us - only the Queen and old school masters still use it! Using 'it' is not an option. They sounds like a pretty good compromise. I'll try it out when I next write an article. Cheers, Matija -- gsm: +386 41 849 552 www: http://matija.suklje.name xmpp: matija.suk...@gabbler.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 08:20:32PM +, John Haltiwanger wrote: Personally, I find it a sign of forward-thinking when pronouns are 'neutralized' through this juxtaposition of possibility (ie both are shown to fit equally the examples provided). Perhaps it is simply the times I grew up in, but reading a man only ever writing 'he' implies a crucial non-existence of concern re: the subject in the writer's mind. I don't throw out their theory as a result of it, but it is certainly something I note. I personally find it very annoying and distracting from the main subject that I usually stop reading at that point. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar
On 26-7-2010 10:20, John Haltiwanger wrote: Then again, I'm a fringe member of a fringe discipline (new media), so perhaps what I can do/what is expected linguistically is irrelevant for the majority. Well, new trends have to come from your dicipline I guess. (Or maybe some new shortcut boils up from the sms universe some day.) I think that this he/she issue is a nice example of something that a lot of brainpower is put into ... each writer (male of female) at one point has to think about it ... btw, thinking of it, 'the reader' sounds quite neutral. In education using 'you' is common which also avoids the problem. Anyhow, an interesting thread and a nice topic for a discussion at the context conference when we discuss manuals and manual writing. Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Grammar (was: Semantic data in ConTeXt?)
* Matija Šuklje mat...@suklje.name [2010-07-25 23:33]: -.-.- P.S. Is there a nicer wording then (s)he for referencing persona in unisex gender (other then one)? The correct unisex pronoun is he. This whole question is an invented problem where no real problem exists. They is usually acceptable, even though it's technically incorrect. Many teachers of English are against its use, but in real life nobody cares. -- David ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
