Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Il 03/01/2010 19.45, Piotr Kopszak ha scritto: Well, well, ConTeXt can help you if you give him a little love and don't try pull all triggers at once. Having written my Ph.D. in LaTeX and published couple of books in ConTeXT I can assure you, ConTeXt is surprisingly better suited for scientific texts (oops sorry, I just mean text with footnotes, bibliography, a couple of indexes, list of illustrations, definitions whatever) even if you disregard its typographic quality. That's of course my entirely subjective opinion. Piotr I've several passions, and one of them is desktop publishing and design (although I'm still a newbie) so a more in-depth exploration of ConTeXt in some future is likely. -- Manuel P. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Well, well, ConTeXt can help you if you give him a little love and don't try pull all triggers at once. Having written my Ph.D. in LaTeX and published couple of books in ConTeXT I can assure you, ConTeXt is surprisingly better suited for scientific texts (oops sorry, I just mean text with footnotes, bibliography, a couple of indexes, list of illustrations, definitions whatever) even if you disregard its typographic quality. That's of course my entirely subjective opinion. Piotr 2009/12/29 Manuel P. ayeye.sysfo...@gmail.com: Il 29/12/2009 3.48, ber...@pobox.com ha scritto: Manuel Another problem is the fluidity of ConTeXt: it changes Manuel rapidly and the documentation is left behind. Maybe for some things, but I'm using a manual from 2004 and from my point of view very little has changed. I would say the interface is remarkably stable, so hopefully that might be some encouragement to come back one day. Sure! -- Manuel P. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___ -- http://okle.pl ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Il 28/12/2009 18.59, Hans Hagen ha scritto: On 28-12-2009 14:44, Manuel P. wrote: Another problem is the fluidity of ConTeXt: it changes rapidly and the documentation is left behind. It's good because it responds very quickly to the real world and users needs, on the other hand it's bad because a new user has to be in the club for some time to figure out everything. most of context (interface) is quite stable and hasn't changed in ages; however with luatex/mkiv we can move forward and do things that are impossible in good old tex but it's not neccessarily functionality that you need now (after all, we have been producing pretty complex docs with mkii and mkiv has hardly be touched the last years) Hans Well, I'm using context for far too short time to know this. I was just saying what I've read around the internet, and since this is not the case: sorry! I'm simply too inexperienced :) I've come to realize (as I was suspecting) that my problems comes mainly by my largely inadequate knowledge and experience with context. And this is fine and natural. My only wrong choice was picking context for my thesis (with a very near deadline) without knowing it sufficiently, not my interest in it. So the message is: context is good and powerful, but not the best choice for this particular project since I don't know it so well. My choice and my error. Lesson learned: for important projects, stick with whatever you know well. Leave the experiments for free-time. -- Manuel P. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Il 29/12/2009 3.48, ber...@pobox.com ha scritto: Manuel Another problem is the fluidity of ConTeXt: it changes Manuel rapidly and the documentation is left behind. Maybe for some things, but I'm using a manual from 2004 and from my point of view very little has changed. I would say the interface is remarkably stable, so hopefully that might be some encouragement to come back one day. Sure! -- Manuel P. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:54:47 +0100 Manuel == Manuel P. ayeye.sysfo...@gmail.com wrote: Manuel A little wish: I hope that when I'll return here there'll be Manuel good documentation (user-oriented) What about the above part? Atm, whatever I write is done using reST, but the day will come when something should be typeset for nice PDF...so I wonder what is with the plan to get, as Hans wrote some time ago: taco and i are thinking about a solution for providing printed manuals at some point. Is it 0.50 the right time for it or we still have to wait? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:54:47 +0100 Manuel P. ayeye.sysfo...@gmail.com scribit: ConTeXt is a good software. I was impressed with a manual typesetted [...] I also ConTeXt is beautiful because it's very configurable, [...] Yes I've had some unpleasant surprises: - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should It is not a good idea to use no-languages (TeX, LaTeX friends) for bibliography. Write the biblio and your source text in your own format and use a true language (Python, C, Pascal, Python, ...) to translate the brute source (with refs) and the biblio base to a typesetter code (TeX or ConText). The last days I had to edit Python-listings (my scores). \starttyping ... \stoptyping. Fine! but there are no headers. But I need headers. Not easy to understand \setupheads, \setupheaders \setupheader etc. there are no examples given. I re-tried reSt, asciidoc : ugly like Latex. So I wrote a Python-script which reads the Python-score and writes a plain tex file (merci Raymond Seroul et le Petit livre de TeX ;-). Nevertheless, ConText beeing the best choice, I am volunteer to help for _french_ (and german) wiki pages in the contextgarden. [...] -- Manuel P. -- René Bastian www.pythoneon.org www.musiques-rb.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Il 27/12/2009 19.41, Wolfgang Schuster ha scritto:
You're wrong, MkIV supports colors by default while you have to enable it in
MkII by yourself
for backwards compatibilities. The screen value for the background key could be
used to set
a gray background where you could change the gray value with the
backgroundscreen key but real
colored backgrounds are set with 'background=color,backgroundcolor=...'. In
MkIV Hans made the
decision to break sometimes backward compatibility and one result of this was
that background=color
is no longer supported because you could use backgroundcolor.
Yes, I'm wrong and I'm not surprised. I've said it clearly: I don't know
ConTeXt as much as I need to use it correctly. Part of the problem is
the documentation: it's difficult (for me) to navigate and know what
works on what version, especially with very limited time to figure out
everything.
Another problem is the fluidity of ConTeXt: it changes rapidly and
the documentation is left behind. It's good because it responds very
quickly to the real world and users needs, on the other hand it's bad
because a new user has to be in the club for some time to figure out
everything.
\setupcolors[state=start]
\setupbackground[background=screen]
\setupbackground[state=start]
\def\quotebox#1#2
{\blank
\midaligned{\startbackground
\quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
\stopbackground}
\blank}
- the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex (MKII and
MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).
I guess this is a result of your own definition of the \quotebox macro which
expects a space
at the end of the command, you should write (untested) instead:
\define[2]\quotebox
{\blank
\startalignment[middle]
\startbackground
\quotation{\em#1}\crlf--#2
\stopbackground
\stopalignment
\blank}
A infinite loop with 100% cpu for some spaces? Well, I wasn't expecting
this.
You should try to play a while with ConTeXt without such a strict and shirt
timeline as you had it this time.
Best regards,
Wolfgang
You are perfectly right, I've picked the wrong choice given this
specific context and requirements.
--
Manuel P.
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Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Il 27/12/2009 20.16, Peter Münster ha scritto: On Sun, Dec 27 2009, Manuel P. wrote: I've had some unpleasant surprises: - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII. Hello Manuel, You mean perhaps the problem to get all entries in the bib-database, even without citations. I don't have the solution, but I'm quite sure, that this is trivial for guys like Taco and others. There is at least one workaround: cite them all at some place in a 0-width box with white color on white background. Hi Peter, Yes, Taco written that this is bug and will be resolved sometimes soon. The workaround that you suggest is surely functional, but I can't help feeling a bit uneasy about it. \def\quotebox#1#2 You want perhaps a %-sign: \def\quotebox#1#2% No, it doesn't work despite the %-sign. Sorry. Wolfgang Schuster proposed a solution (untested, I haven't tried it yet). -- Manuel P. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 02:44:20PM +0100, Manuel P. wrote:
\def\quotebox#1#2
{\blank
\midaligned{\startbackground
\quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
\stopbackground}
\blank}
- the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex (MKII
and MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).
I guess this is a result of your own definition of the \quotebox macro which
expects a space
at the end of the command, you should write (untested) instead:
\define[2]\quotebox
{\blank
\startalignment[middle]
\startbackground
\quotation{\em#1}\crlf--#2
\stopbackground
\stopalignment
\blank}
A infinite loop with 100% cpu for some spaces? Well, I wasn't
expecting this.
Well, that is how TeX works, not a ConTeXt issue here; your \quotebox
definition tells TeX to expect a space at the end of the macro, and it
was looking for it.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
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Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On Mon, Dec 28 2009, Manuel P. wrote: \def\quotebox#1#2 You want perhaps a %-sign: \def\quotebox#1#2% No, it doesn't work despite the %-sign. Sorry. Strange... Could you post a minimal example please with hanging luatex (of course only if you have some time for that)? Cheers, Peter -- Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On 28-12-2009 14:44, Manuel P. wrote: Another problem is the fluidity of ConTeXt: it changes rapidly and the documentation is left behind. It's good because it responds very quickly to the real world and users needs, on the other hand it's bad because a new user has to be in the club for some time to figure out everything. most of context (interface) is quite stable and hasn't changed in ages; however with luatex/mkiv we can move forward and do things that are impossible in good old tex but it's not neccessarily functionality that you need now (after all, we have been producing pretty complex docs with mkii and mkiv has hardly be touched the last years) Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Manuel == Manuel P ayeye.sysfo...@gmail.com writes: Manuel Another problem is the fluidity of ConTeXt: it changes Manuel rapidly and the documentation is left behind. Maybe for some things, but I'm using a manual from 2004 and from my point of view very little has changed. I would say the interface is remarkably stable, so hopefully that might be some encouragement to come back one day. -- Cheers, Berend de Boer ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
Am 27.12.2009 um 16:54 schrieb Manuel P.:
ConTeXt is a good software. I was impressed with a manual typesetted with it
and decided to give it a try. After some small documents, despite my
ridicously small knowledge of it I decided to use ConTeXt for my thesis. Bad
move.
ConTeXt is beautiful because it's very configurable, for the most uses
doesn't need any external module (unlike LaTeX), and gives me more power on
the presentation of the document. But in a few days of work I've come to
realize that it's not suited for me and this project.
I've had some unpleasant surprises:
- Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII.
- MKIV, unlike MKII, doesn't setup any background color:
You're wrong, MkIV supports colors by default while you have to enable it in
MkII by yourself
for backwards compatibilities. The screen value for the background key could be
used to set
a gray background where you could change the gray value with the
backgroundscreen key but real
colored backgrounds are set with 'background=color,backgroundcolor=...'. In
MkIV Hans made the
decision to break sometimes backward compatibility and one result of this was
that background=color
is no longer supported because you could use backgroundcolor.
\setupcolors[state=start]
\setupbackground[background=screen]
\setupbackground[state=start]
\def\quotebox#1#2
{\blank
\midaligned{\startbackground
\quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
\stopbackground}
\blank}
- the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex (MKII
and MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).
I guess this is a result of your own definition of the \quotebox macro which
expects a space
at the end of the command, you should write (untested) instead:
\define[2]\quotebox
{\blank
\startalignment[middle]
\startbackground
\quotation{\em#1}\crlf--#2
\stopbackground
\stopalignment
\blank}
One reason for this is probably my very limited knowledge and experience with
ConTeXt. It's extremely configurable, and this is a plus. But on the other
hand if you don't know how to move, what to do, the system internals and how
any configuration affect the typesetting, a lot of thing won't work. And
worse, you won't know where to bump your head. I don't have time to read the
reference manual (I've already read the excursion) because the deadline is
too near, so I have to call defeat and go to the LaTeX camp. I've wasted days
of work, now I can't afford more of that.
It's a learning experience: don't use an experimental (new for me) tool for
an important job. Stick to the triedtested ones, and use new stuff only in a
safe context (without a near hard deadline).
Maybe, in some future, I'll take again ConTeXt and try to learn it the proper
way. But for now, it's fired.
For your patience, time and help: thanks to all of you!
You should try to play a while with ConTeXt without such a strict and shirt
timeline as you had it this time.
Best regards,
Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On Sun, Dec 27 2009, Manuel P. wrote: I've had some unpleasant surprises: - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII. Hello Manuel, You mean perhaps the problem to get all entries in the bib-database, even without citations. I don't have the solution, but I'm quite sure, that this is trivial for guys like Taco and others. There is at least one workaround: cite them all at some place in a 0-width box with white color on white background. - MKIV, unlike MKII, doesn't setup any background color: \setupcolors[state=start] Not needed in MKIV. \setupbackground[background=screen] No more supported in MKIV, use \setupbackground[background=color, backgroundcolor=gray] instead. \setupbackground[state=start] I don't know if this is needed, seems to work without this line. \def\quotebox#1#2 You want perhaps a %-sign: \def\quotebox#1#2% It's a learning experience: don't use an experimental (new for me) tool for an important job. Stick to the triedtested ones, and use new stuff only in a safe context (without a near hard deadline). Right, 2-3 weeks are really a short time for such task. Cheers, Peter -- Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched
On 27-12-2009 20:16, Peter Münster wrote: You mean perhaps the problem to get all entries in the bib-database, even without citations. I don't have the solution, but I'm quite sure, that this is trivial for guys like Taco and others. There is at least one workaround: cite them all at some place in a 0-width box with white color on white background. actually, tge mkiv variant has more options (and Thomas has offered to update the manual when he has time); with respect to filtering, you can use the same 'criterium' as for lists + the 'cite' criterium Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
